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nysisobli
2011-01-06, 08:17 PM
Has anyone seen this made? Level by level? Ive been looking for one and didnt want to write it up from scratch

The Glyphstone
2011-01-06, 08:30 PM
I don't know about level by level, but Conan is basically the archtypical Warblade. Iron Heart Surge could pretty much have as its entire flavor text "BY CROM!"

Eldan
2011-01-06, 08:30 PM
From what I've seen of him, which admittedly is not much, I'd place him at around level 8.

holywhippet
2011-01-06, 08:55 PM
I don't know about level by level, but Conan is basically the archtypical Warblade. Iron Heart Surge could pretty much have as its entire flavor text "BY CROM!"

Conan would need some levels in either rogue or something roguelike - he is good at climbing and stealth as he spent his early life as a thief. Maybe levels in ranger?

HunterOfJello
2011-01-06, 08:57 PM
I think the traditional build would be a Fighter/Barbarian/Rogue, but Warblade could replace all those.

Lateral
2011-01-06, 09:00 PM
IIRC, it's been done. Human Warblade dipping into Barbarian and Factotum, with Able Learner and Extra Rage once or twice. Pretty decent, actually. There's also another build on the Barbarian Handbook that's a Barbarian 1/ Rogue 2/ Cleric X with Rage-related feats to be similar to a barbarian.

Dead_Jester
2011-01-06, 09:02 PM
Probably Warblade 5 or 6. or Warblade 5 Barbarian 1. Conan (like most western fantasy caracters) is best represented in a E6 environment. Although he might look badass, murdering level 1 mooks all day long is pretty easy for a 5th or 6th level character.

Also, the fact that he spent his early life as a thief doesn't make him a rogue, it makes him a thief. Anybody can be a thief, although rogues tend to do it better.

Mojo_Rat
2011-01-06, 09:02 PM
Conan is hard to put down in terms of a game. Although the old schual Dual level fighter/rogue probly got it best.

He is for the most part a barbarian in culture but not in the sense that the Modern class has it. He was never represented as a Berseker for example.

He also spends quite a bit of his early years as a Thief.

Though some Mix of Rogue barbarian and fighter probly gives him the appropriate skill set.

Though Mechanically lacks.

As for Warblade it doesnt thematically offer anything hes shown and is only really appropriate from a mechanical point of view.

Dead_Jester
2011-01-06, 09:04 PM
As for Warblade it doesnt thematically offer anything hes shown and is only really appropriate from a mechanical point of view.

Since when wasn't Conan a glory seeking, mook slaughtering thug?

Mojo_Rat
2011-01-06, 09:10 PM
He never displayed any supernatural Combat skills from some sort of Mystic warrior skillset

If a wizard in the books hit him a magic spell he would get past it through sheer force of will or because of his constition (ie made his save) not because he had soe mystic training that just removed it.

You dont need warblade to be a glory hound.

on the Main topic.

A main part of Conans skillset displaye din the books falls into the Rogue domain. Climbing jumping sneaking, Even Linguistics But at the same time he was also a warrior with feel equals.

Its hard to Consolodate the Two fascets of him in mechanical game terms.

Dead_Jester
2011-01-06, 09:14 PM
Yes, but both Iron Heart and Tiger Claw (the two disciplines that could represent Conan's fighting the best) aren't mystic at all, and are purely based on weapon skills, fitness and mental fortitude.

All the skills you mention except seeking are on the Warblade's skill list, and he wasn't ever a great sneak (not ninja level anyhow) so taking a few skill points is all it takes.

Mojo_Rat
2011-01-06, 09:18 PM
If i were to do him in PF it would probably be Fighter 4/Rogue 4 using the level 8 model somone suggested earlier.

In Pathfinder terms this would give him great combat ability, along with the whole skillset he displays in the books.

Mechanically would be reasonably strong in a game where evrone wasnt optimized out the wazoo.

Lateral
2011-01-06, 09:21 PM
What DJ said. Warblades aren't Swordsages; their maneuvers are martial flavored.

Also, it's E6, not E8.

The Glyphstone
2011-01-06, 09:25 PM
I'm still in favor of the E6 argument - Conan's world is very low magic...Polymorph is considered a powerful ritual spell, almost exactly how E6 is set up.

1 level of Feat Rogue or Thug Fighter for extra skill points to represent the tricks he picked up in his thieving life (bonus fighter feat instead of sneak attack, since he's a in-your-face warrior), then 5 levels of Warblade. Iron Heart and Tiger Claw maneuvers only (since, as you said, he never used any mystical or supernatural abilities), and Iron Heart Surge as his 3rd-level maneuver - literally the mechanical representation of 'sheer force of will'. High STR and CON, decent DEX and Int, average WIS and CHA (gaining the aging bonuses to mental stats as he transitioned into Conan the King).

TroubleBrewing
2011-01-06, 09:29 PM
Iron Heart Surge could pretty much have as its entire flavor text "BY CROM!"

... May I sig this? I'm a huge Robert E. Howard fan, and also a big fan of the warblade. This is... perfect.

The Glyphstone
2011-01-06, 09:31 PM
... May I sig this? I'm a huge Robert E. Howard fan, and also a big fan of the warblade. This is... perfect.

Go for it.:smallbiggrin:

Lateral
2011-01-06, 09:32 PM
Glyphstone, I'd high-five you, but I'd rather not be instantly (yet horrifyingly slowly) sucked into a maelstrom of Lovecraftian dementia. Feat rogue is EXACTLY PERFECT for Conan's thievery-based exploits. Maybe Able Learner as well, so he can keep up on his skills.

The Big Dice
2011-01-06, 09:35 PM
There were a couple of old AD&D Conan modules, as well as a GURPS Conan book. But like most literary characters, Conan is hard to stat up in D&D terms.

He's extremely physical, with some Skills that say Rogue. But he was also a sailor and a pirate, later pirate cheif, a wanderer across an entire continent and king of Aquilonia. So he's tough to pin down.

holywhippet
2011-01-06, 09:52 PM
He never displayed any supernatural Combat skills from some sort of Mystic warrior skillset

If a wizard in the books hit him a magic spell he would get past it through sheer force of will or because of his constition (ie made his save) not because he had soe mystic training that just removed it.


One of the Conan stories (as in one of the ones Robert E. Howard wrote himself) stated why Conan tends to be so successful against supernatural creatures and spellcasters. People from other races tended to freeze up in fear when they ran into something supernatural because of their upbringing - thus making them an easy target.

The Cimmerians were raised on stories about supernatural creatures - and how Cimmerian warriors had killed them. Hence Conan never froze up or hesitated because he inherently believed he'd be able to kill whatever it was he was facing.

DeltaEmil
2011-01-06, 10:39 PM
Conan did believe in ghosts and monstrous gods, whereas the "civilized" folks like the aquilonians, argosians and brythunians and other similar men did not (they are after all a fantasy-mirror to us modern men who have eschewed superstitions with science and truths... at least, most of us). And even some amongst the cimmerians have started to not take the stories about their gods and the elder children of the stars that much more serious.

Conan might come from a ferocious race of supervital ubermen, but even he is still unique amongst his ilk, being like totally strong, really smart, quite curious in other cultures, an omniglot, and still very cautious and level-headed.

Tiki Snakes
2011-01-06, 10:45 PM
I can't remember any of the details, but he's definately statted up in the conan D20 book. Which has some nice stuff in it, infact, and is built to support the kind of dabbling wanderer approach to character building that kind of pulp fiction encourages.

Doomboy911
2011-01-06, 10:48 PM
I don't know about level by level, but Conan is basically the archtypical Warblade. Iron Heart Surge could pretty much have as its entire flavor text "BY CROM!"


I thought Conan was more of the bard type.

DeltaEmil
2011-01-06, 11:10 PM
Well, he certainly did sing when he was stone-drunk.

Coidzor
2011-01-06, 11:13 PM
Also, it's E6, not E8.

:smallconfused: Someone mentioned thinking he'd be about level 8, not that we should stat him up for E6. And there is E8, it's even mentioned in the E6 write-up.

Starbuck_II
2011-01-06, 11:19 PM
He never displayed any supernatural Combat skills from some sort of Mystic warrior skillset

No one mentioned Crusader. I believe Warblade was mentioned. Warblades lack all supernatural skills.

Runestar
2011-01-07, 01:32 AM
Rogue5/fighter15. :smalltongue:

drakir_nosslin
2011-01-07, 03:26 AM
Rogue5/fighter15. :smalltongue:

Yes, because if he's level 20, then all the palace guards are at least lvl 16 mooks. And you have to be at least lvl 20 to beat lvl 16 mooks, so conan is lvl 20, obviously. Also, I think he's gestalted Lightning warrior and wizard, with all wizard spells known.
EDIT: Joking on the internet is hard, here's the required :smalltongue:

Killer Angel
2011-01-07, 04:47 AM
Yes, because if he's level 20, then all the palace guards are at least lvl 16 mooks. And you have to be at least lvl 20 to beat lvl 16 mooks, so conan is lvl 20, obviously. Also, I think he's gestalted Lightning warrior and wizard, with all wizard spells known.

Runestar put the :smalltongue:, so he was kidding. :smallamused:
Anyway...


Has anyone seen this made? Level by level? Ive been looking for one and didnt want to write it up from scratch

There's the Conan - the roleplaying game (http://index.rpg.net/display-entry.phtml?mainid=2375), with the d20 system.

Yeah (http://hyboria.xoth.net/), Conan scales up from lev. 1, 'til lev. 20 (http://hyboria.xoth.net/characters/index.htm)

kamikasei
2011-01-07, 04:58 AM
I thought Conan was more of the bard type.
He even has backing singers (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OBGOQ7SsJrw).

Xuc Xac
2011-01-07, 05:11 AM
But like most literary characters, Conan is hard to stat up in D&D terms. ... So he's tough to pin down.

That's because Conan, like most literary characters, lives in a world without artificially enforced niche protection.


The Cimmerians were raised on stories about supernatural creatures - and how Cimmerian warriors had killed them. Hence Conan never froze up or hesitated because he inherently believed he'd be able to kill whatever it was he was facing.

If it bleeds, you can kill it. If it doesn't bleed, you're not hitting it hard enough.

Taranaich
2011-01-07, 05:15 AM
he wasn't ever a great sneak (not ninja level anyhow)

Conan could move through the forest so stealthily even the animals didn't notice him. He could evade the Picts, master hunters and trackers, for hundreds of miles in their home territory - Picts are guys who can sneak up to a canoe and kill a man without alerting the other to his presence. Conan could out-sneak them. Conan's pretty ninja.

Runestar
2011-01-07, 05:23 AM
Yes, because if he's level 20, then all the palace guards are at least lvl 16 mooks. And you have to be at least lvl 20 to beat lvl 16 mooks, so conan is lvl 20, obviously. Also, I think he's gestalted Lightning warrior and wizard, with all wizard spells known.

I was actually reposting his 2ed stats I once saw in an issue of inquest (probably homebrew), which pitched him as a 5th lv thief dualclassed to 15th lv fighter.

The thing is, I think it makes sense. He doesn't have the benefit of magic gear, so his stats pretty much stink (10+dex+whatever mundane armour he cobbles together). His hp is about the only thing keeping him alive when he fights, since even 4th lv mooks can hit him without problem. Without magic weapons or stat boosting gear, his attack rolls and damage aren't too stellar either. Statwise, a naked conan would be hard pressed to fight a cr8 giant?

You want him to be capable of all those feats without the benefit of magic, you really have to pile on the class lvs.

4th ed would probably be easier, barb with rogue multiclass?

Killer Angel
2011-01-07, 05:36 AM
average WIS and CHA (gaining the aging bonuses to mental stats as he transitioned into Conan the King).

On wis I agree, but i think the CHA is higher... Conan was able to inspire an uncommon sense on loyalty in his followers.

Britter
2011-01-07, 10:32 AM
He stats up quite nicely in systems outside of DnD. He wouldn't be doable as a starting character, but the Conan from the Robert Howard stories could easily be represented using Burning Wheel.

Cyphrus
2011-01-07, 11:35 AM
Well for the fun of it, I threw together Conan in 4e, enjoy!

Conan, level 6 (Inherent Bonuses, in-use)
Human, Fighter
Build: Battlerager Fighter
Fighter: Combat Superiority
Fighter Talents: Battlerager Vigor
Human Power Selection: Heroic Effort
Background: Silent Hunter (Silent Hunter Benefit)

Theme: (Ex-)Gladiator

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 21, Con 17, Dex 15, Int 13, Wis 12, Cha 10.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 18, Con 16, Dex 15, Int 13, Wis 12, Cha 10.


AC: 21 Fort: 23 Reflex: 18 Will: 17
HP: 62 Surges: 12 Surge Value: 15

TRAINED SKILLS
Thievery +9, Intimidate +8, Stealth +10, Athletics +12, Perception +10, Endurance +13

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +4, Arcana +4, Bluff +3, Diplomacy +3, Dungeoneering +4, Heal +4, History +4, Insight +4, Nature +4, Religion +4, Streetwise +3

FEATS
Human: Sneak of Shadows
Level 1: Master at Arms
Level 2: Improved Defenses
Level 4: Mobile Challenge
Level 6: Weapon Focus (Heavy Blade)

POWERS
Fighter at-will 1: Crushing Surge
Fighter at-will 1: Cleave
Fighter encounter 1: Hack and Hew
Gladiator encounter 1: Disrupting Advance
Fighter daily 1: Driving Attack
Fighter utility 2: Glowering Threat
Fighter encounter 3: Sweeping Blow
Fighter daily 5: Rain of Steel
Fighter utility 6: Daring Shot

ITEMS
Adventurer's Kit, Greatsword, Finemail

Callos_DeTerran
2011-01-07, 11:40 AM
I'm still in favor of the E6 argument - Conan's world is very low magic...Polymorph is considered a powerful ritual spell, almost exactly how E6 is set up.

That's...not quite true. The magic of Conan's world is both more powerful (in SOME respects, definitely not all) and at times just as prevalent as in a normal D&D campaign considering Conan's time is during the end of the Age of magic. For example, effects like polymorph are (sometimes) a ritual spell, but someone who only dabbles in the sorcerer arts can bring down an unholy plague that can wipe out entire cities, not counting what an actual sorcerer could do with the same spell. Honestly, magic varies too much in the Hyborean Age depending on where one is for it to be pinned down to a low magic world...Though I would have to put forth that Conan's world is low magic in the sense that there are not a lot of magical items.

To the OP, just pick up the Conan d20 RPG from Mongoose (or .pdfs of them from somewhere) and pick one of Conan's many statblocks to use cause they like to stat him up at various points of his adventuring career. The most important thing to remember is that while he's a fighter primarily, it's that he's also a very skillful and intelligent man. Warblade with a dip into Factotum (not high enough to get the magical healing/spells mind you) would probably represent him best if you are dead-set on portraying him in D&D's system

Though keep in mind that when listing Epic level characters in the Epic Level Hanbook, Conan was one of them. They also probably would have made him a literal barbarian though too, so take this with a grain of salt.

Leon
2011-01-07, 11:45 AM
I can provide Conan the Librarian's sheet.

My Cloistered Cleric/Barbarian is commonly called the above.

Britter
2011-01-07, 11:48 AM
Don't you know the Dewey Decimal System?!?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mZHoHaAYHq8

The Big Dice
2011-01-07, 12:17 PM
On wis I agree, but i think the CHA is higher... Conan was able to inspire an uncommon sense on loyalty in his followers.
That was as much about him appealing to their base natures as it was his charisma.

When you turn to a ship full of pirates that have just been decimated by weird natives, then chased out to sea by a freaky green river that moves of it's own accord and say "Let's go looting and pillaging! Full shares for all!" Or words to that effect, they tend to be loyal.

He stats up quite nicely in systems outside of DnD. He wouldn't be doable as a starting character, but the Conan from the Robert Howard stories could easily be represented using Burning Wheel.
Conan is hard to do but you can pin him down to various times in his life. There's the brash young barbarian, the sailor, the wanderer and the king. The stories actually cover a good 30 years of Conan's life.

Britter
2011-01-07, 12:24 PM
Conan is hard to do but you can pin him down to various times in his life. There's the brash young barbarian, the sailor, the wanderer and the king. The stories actually cover a good 30 years of Conan's life.

Yeah, I've read all the Howard stories. And, honestly, I am certain it could totally be done in BW. You could easily model him at any point in his career, from the early days right up through his Kingship.

Whats really frustrating about Conan as an iconic character is that many people approach RPGs with him or a character like him as a model, only to find out that most systems are incapable of really portraying that sort of character.

awa
2011-01-07, 01:01 PM
i would actually put all his stats very high.
the physical ones are obvious several stories indicated his adversary was more skilled but just couldn't match his raw physical abilities.
wisdom accounts for his excellent sense will power and determination so that's pretty obvious ass well.
now int he traveled the world and was competent in virtually ever profession he tried his hand at.
now charisma you might think it should be low or average but remember ever single attractive female he met quickly became fell in love with him even when he was kidnapping them that says high charisma to me.

Cybren
2011-01-07, 03:44 PM
conan isn't a warblade.

Warblades are "really good at trained swordsing". conan was never the most skilled warrior, just the strongest.

Like, wrestle an elder god strong.

Jayabalard
2011-01-07, 03:46 PM
Has anyone seen this made? Level by level? Ive been looking for one and didnt want to write it up from scratchIt's in Conan Unchained! (CB1) and Conan Against Darkness! (CB2), modules written by TSR for AD&D.

hamishspence
2011-01-07, 03:46 PM
Warblade doesn't have to get their manuevers through "schooling" though- you could maybe have a self-taught warblade if you wanted.

Lapak
2011-01-07, 03:55 PM
conan isn't a warblade.

Warblades are "really good at trained swordsing". conan was never the most skilled warrior, just the strongest.

Like, wrestle an elder god strong.Not really, no. He's overmatched in raw strength in half the stories he starred in. By a big old stone-golemish god-thing, by a mad ape, by lots of things; he's generally stronger than human opponents, but he's not an unstoppable colossus. He is very skilled with weapons, extremely tough-minded, and way more clever than people expect, but he's not superhuman in any regard.

The Big Dice
2011-01-07, 04:06 PM
Not really, no. He's overmatched in raw strength in half the stories he starred in. By a big old stone-golemish god-thing, by a mad ape, by lots of things; he's generally stronger than human opponents, but he's not an unstoppable colossus. He is very skilled with weapons, extremely tough-minded, and way more clever than people expect, but he's not superhuman in any regard.

That's Conan in a nutshell. The reason he wins isn't often brute force or D&D style barbarian fury. It's by coming at a problem from a different angle. He's not educated, but he is very intelligent and has an instinct for combat.

The kind of images that Howard used to describe Conan were often feline in nature. Catlike. Panthers, lions and tigers were the animals Conan was most often compared to. Animals that are cunning and predatory.

Really, the Conan of the stories has very little to do with the Conan of the movies and even less to do with the Barbarians of D&D.

hamishspence
2011-01-07, 04:10 PM
Really, the Conan of the stories has very little to do with the Conan of the movies and even less to do with the Barbarians of D&D.

that said, Being Bane: Eldariel’s Guide to Barbarians (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=105525) does quote the Conan books at some points.

but that's more shaping the class to fit the character, rather than vice versa.

The Glyphstone
2011-01-07, 04:21 PM
That's Conan in a nutshell. The reason he wins isn't often brute force or D&D style barbarian fury. It's by coming at a problem from a different angle. He's not educated, but he is very intelligent and has an instinct for combat.

The kind of images that Howard used to describe Conan were often feline in nature. Catlike. Panthers, lions and tigers were the animals Conan was most often compared to. Animals that are cunning and predatory.

Really, the Conan of the stories has very little to do with the Conan of the movies and even less to do with the Barbarians of D&D.

And coincidentally, Warblades have several class features that give them bonuses for having an Intelligence bonus.

hamishspence
2011-01-07, 04:25 PM
Might be interesting to see an array of Conan builds that focus on different scenes in the various Conan media.

Conan the Barbarian
Conan the Fighter
Conan the Rogue
Conan the Scout
Conan the Swashbuckler
Conan the Crusader
Conan the Swordsage
Conan the Warblade

Just a few I can think of offhand.

Lapak
2011-01-07, 04:25 PM
That's Conan in a nutshell. The reason he wins isn't often brute force or D&D style barbarian fury. It's by coming at a problem from a different angle. He's not educated, but he is very intelligent and has an instinct for combat.

The kind of images that Howard used to describe Conan were often feline in nature. Catlike. Panthers, lions and tigers were the animals Conan was most often compared to. Animals that are cunning and predatory.

Really, the Conan of the stories has very little to do with the Conan of the movies and even less to do with the Barbarians of D&D.One of the biggest counter-intuitive things people seeking to emulate Conan must learn:

He runs away a lot. He runs away from dinosaurs in Red Nails until he finds a way to poison them. He runs away from unstoppable god-golems and magical monsters and angry mobs. In short, he's not too proud to realize that he can't beat something straight-up and that he's going to need to come at it with an edge or avoid it altogether. He IS amazing at straight-up fights - he does them like nobody else, and wins when he engages! - but if he feels like it won't profit him he's not afraid to back off.

Britter
2011-01-07, 04:25 PM
If you are using 3.d DnD to model him, a Warblade/Rogue multiclass of some kind would do an adequate job. Conan IS a very skilled combatant in all the stories, and in the movie as well frankly. He may be a physical paragon, but he also pairs that with skill and no small amount of cleverness and luck.

Chambers
2011-01-07, 04:29 PM
This article (http://www.thealexandrian.net/creations/misc/d&d-calibrating.html) is relevant to the discussion. You can read the whole thing or crtl+F for "Analyzing Aragorn".

hamishspence
2011-01-07, 04:34 PM
It makes a lot of assumptions.

And D&D splatbooks (Cityscape, Arms & Equipment Guide, DMG2) don't seem to follow the principles outlined. A 10th level expert is not "super-good" in those- it's a typical master of their craft. The greatest smiths, craftmen, sages, etc tend to be higher level.

Ytaker
2011-01-07, 04:56 PM
http://gutenberg.net.au/ebooks06/0600961h.html


A tall corsair, bounding over the rail, was met in midair by the Cimmerian's great sword, which sheared him cleanly through the torso

He can one hit kill a trained warrior.


In an instant he was the center of a hurricane of stabbing spears and lashing clubs. But he moved in a blinding blur of steel. Spears bent on his armor or swished empty air, and his sword sang its death-song.


He can kill multiple trained warriors, and he has the feat cleave or greater cleave.



Then as they lifted their spears to cast them, and he tensed himself to leap and die in the midst of them, a shrill cry froze the lifted arms. They stood like statues, the black giants poised for the spearcasts, the mailed swordsman with his dripping blade.

He can't survive their attacks. Based on this.


The men slept on deck or between the rowers' benches, protected in bad weather by canopies. With twenty men at the oars, three at the sweep, and the shipmaster, the crew was complete.

So, 24 crew members. Some sort of number around 20 is mentioned elsewhere in the story, so this seems reasonable.


I'll take twenty men and search for fresh water in the jungle.

He killed 6 with his bow earlier, 1 in the mentioned start of the battle, at least 2 in the deathly melee. So, 23 (no captain) -9=14. I'd guess the spears are medium, so a damage of 1d8 average 4. Conan is expecting death, so he presumably has less than 14*4=56 health. No injuries were mentioned at any time- special mention was made to the fact that the blades bounced off his armour, so he was at full HP.

So, any model should have less than 60HP.

Jayabalard
2011-01-07, 05:07 PM
It makes a lot of assumptions. Indeed it does.


This article (http://www.thealexandrian.net/creations/misc/d&d-calibrating.html) is relevant to the discussion. You can read the whole thing or crtl+F for "Analyzing Aragorn".It uses a lot of circular reasoning, and it ignores anything that doesn't conveniently fit the level he's trying to show.

As a quick example: it talks about the easy survival DC's on the trip to rivendell, but totally glosses over tracking Pippin and Merry (not just the Uruk's but reliably being able to find traces of the hobbits along the trail, and even on a battlefield after any tracks would have been trampled over several times), at a dead run for multiple days, over bad terrain terrain including through rock and water, though day and night (don't recall if they mention the moon during the night), and then into Fangorn while the magic of a Maiar is hindering him and helping the Uruks, and while the Uruks are making an effort to cover their tracks.


He killed 6 with his bow earlier, 1 in the mentioned start of the battle, at least 2 in the deathly melee. So, 23 (no captain) -9=14. I'd guess the spears are medium, so a damage of 1d8 average 4. Conan is expecting death, so he presumably has less than 14*4=56 health. No injuries were mentioned at any time- special mention was made to the fact that the blades bounced off his armour, so he was at full HP.

So, any model should have less than 60HP.1d8 is average 4.5 not 4. And these are people who basically fight for a living, so assuming no strength bonus is not good. I'd say that you should probably assume a +1 strength bonus on average . If he's going to leap into them, they could potentially be set to receive his charge, doubling their damage, but I'll assume not.

assuming he kills 4 per round he'd take
14* 5.5 = 77
2nd round he'd take
10* 5.5 = 55
3rd round he'd take
6 * 5.5 = 33
4th round he'd take
2*5.5 = 11

For a total of 176.

If he kills 3 per round it's (14+11+8+5+2) * 5.5 = 220

If he kills 2 per round it's (14+12+10+8+6+4+2) * 5.5 = 308

all of this assumes that none are crits... but with up to 56 attacks, tere's a really good chance that he's going to take at least one x3 crit.


Blades bouncing off of armor doesn't mean full health, since HP in D&D is not just wounds, but is far more abstract than that and also includes luck, fatigue, etc, so assuming that his HP is under 60 is not valid.


He could potentially have in excess of 500 hp, while still making those passages true.

One more edit:


So, 24 crew members. Some sort of number around 20 is mentioned elsewhere in the story, so this seems reasonable.
I'm not sure these numbers make sense. In general, you have more than one shift of men for your crew. The ship seems to be portrayed similar in someways to viking longship, and

The snekkja, meaning 'thin and projecting,' was typically the smallest longship used in warfare and was classified as a ship with at least 20 rowing benches. A typical snekkja might have a length of, a width of, and a draught of only . It would carry a crew of around 41 men 40 oarsmen and one cox.

Cybren
2011-01-07, 06:53 PM
Not really, no. He's overmatched in raw strength in half the stories he starred in. By a big old stone-golemish god-thing, by a mad ape, by lots of things; he's generally stronger than human opponents, but he's not an unstoppable colossus. He is very skilled with weapons, extremely tough-minded, and way more clever than people expect, but he's not superhuman in any regard.

yes. he is very skilled.

but he's expressly the strongest human in all the stories. which is how he beats more skilled opponents. He's clever, and has cat like agility. And he can wrestle a gorilla. monsters are generally the only thing that are physically stronger than him, but he still often wrestles those to death.

Runestar
2011-01-07, 08:59 PM
yes. he is very skilled.

but he's expressly the strongest human in all the stories. which is how he beats more skilled opponents. He's clever, and has cat like agility. And he can wrestle a gorilla. monsters are generally the only thing that are physically stronger than him, but he still often wrestles those to death.

I am fairly sure he still meets the occasional opponent stronger than him. You want strong, that's beowulf, who can literally rip the arms off his foes. :smalltongue:

The Glyphstone
2011-01-07, 09:29 PM
yes. he is very skilled.

but he's expressly the strongest human in all the stories. which is how he beats more skilled opponents. He's clever, and has cat like agility. And he can wrestle a gorilla. monsters are generally the only thing that are physically stronger than him, but he still often wrestles those to death.

Yeah, but what does your strength score have to do with your class levels? Whether he's a Fighter, Rogue, or Warblade, he'd still have high STR, and Warblade is the best option of the three for representing his combat techniques.

Callos_DeTerran
2011-01-07, 10:36 PM
yes. he is very skilled.

but he's expressly the strongest human in all the stories. which is how he beats more skilled opponents. He's clever, and has cat like agility. And he can wrestle a gorilla. monsters are generally the only thing that are physically stronger than him, but he still often wrestles those to death.

Not...really. The strangler in...Shadow over Shem? The one with Darfai man-eaters, was stronger then him and it was just the fact that Conan surprised him and had greater endurance that allowed him to prevail in that fight.

And people from the Black Kingdom are given a bonus in strength (in the Conan d20 RPG) so it's fair to assume a higher then +1 bonus on strength.

DeltaEmil
2011-01-07, 10:48 PM
That might be debatable, as in the story Shadows in Zamboula, Conan did boast about having strangled a bull as a young lad, while Baal-pteor only specialised in strangling humans.

However, Conan's much superior endurance is what effectively won him the day when he counter-strangled Baal-pteor. Baal-pteor was underestimating Conan's fortitude, while his throat was crushed by the Cimmerian's hands.

Chambers
2011-01-07, 11:19 PM
It makes a lot of assumptions.

And D&D splatbooks (Cityscape, Arms & Equipment Guide, DMG2) don't seem to follow the principles outlined. A 10th level expert is not "super-good" in those- it's a typical master of their craft. The greatest smiths, craftmen, sages, etc tend to be higher level.

In a 20th level world, yeah, the greatest smiths are going to be higher than 5th level. The articles first point was that the basis for the 3.0 rules are able to model regular people rather well and that the highest level a real world person would be is 5th level.

In a D&D world that reasoning works too - beyond 5th level you're advanced beyond normal human limits. That 10th level crafter is indeed a typical master of their craft in a 20 level world. Put him in a 5th level world and it's as if he has super-powers (well, the super power to craft).

Ytaker
2011-01-07, 11:20 PM
[QUOTE]As a quick example: it talks about the easy survival DC's on the trip to rivendell, but totally glosses over tracking Pippin and Merry (not just the Uruk's but reliably being able to find traces of the hobbits along the trail, and even on a battlefield after any tracks would have been trampled over several times), at a dead run for multiple days, over bad terrain terrain including through rock and water, though day and night (don't recall if they mention the moon during the night), and then into Fangorn while the magic of a Maiar is hindering him and helping the Uruks, and while the Uruks are making an effort to cover their tracks.

He points out that the highest DC for tracking in core rules is 15. So, the terrain doesn't matter. Some would be easier, some harder. What part of this wouldn't be covered by 5th level?


1d8 is average 4.5 not 4. And these are people who basically fight for a living, so assuming no strength bonus is not good. I'd say that you should probably assume a +1 strength bonus on average . If he's going to leap into them, they could potentially be set to receive his charge, doubling their damage, but I'll assume not.

Ah, yeah, oops about the average.


assuming he kills 4 per round he'd take

The story shows that in close combat he can take them (no injuries reported) but that with ranged combat they'd defeat him. If he could get back into close combat he could win.


Spears bent on his armor or swished empty air


Blades bouncing off of armor doesn't mean full health, since HP in D&D is not just wounds, but is far more abstract than that and also includes luck, fatigue, etc, so assuming that his HP is under 60 is not valid.

Yeah, but the story makes it clear that he's taking no harm, and doesn't say he's fatigued. He didn't have his luck depleted either. He was owning them. Also, I missed something.


Then, with a burst of fury that left a heap of mangled corpses along the gunwales

At least 2 less bodies to throw spears at him.

So, 5.5*12=66 damage on average.


I'm not sure these numbers make sense. In general, you have more than one shift of men for your crew. The ship seems to be portrayed similar in someways to viking longship, and

The knarr is the Norse term for ships that were built for Atlantic voyages. They were cargo ships with a length of about 54 feet (21m), a beam of 15 feet (4.5m), and a hull capable of carrying up to 24 tons.[2] Overall displacement: 50 tons. Knarrs routinely crossed the North Atlantic centuries ago carrying livestock and stores to Greenland. It was capable of sailing 75 miles within in one day and held a crew of about 20-30.

From wiki.

So, yes, the numbers work. Nothing in the story contradicts them. Just because, realistically, you might think there should be more crew memebers, doesn't mean there are.

So, I shall suggest a possible character. Level 5 barbarian. 48 skill points, strength 18 and constitution 16 dexterity 18. He's facing level one spearmen. Why level 1?


On the raised platform in the bows stood a slim figure whose white skin glistened in dazzling contrast to the glossy ebon hides about it. Belit, without a doubt. Conan drew the shaft to his ear--then some whim or qualm stayed his hand and sent the arrow through the body of a tall plumed spearman beside her.

He 1hko'd the enemies. They couldn't even survive what was likely a 1d6 or 1d8 weapon.

He has an average roll for each hit dice, 5*6+15=45HP.

What can't this character do, that he does in the novels? He presumably has skill points in hide, move silently, lock pick, pick pocket. He'll have some sort of feats which compliment his build. Maybe some diplomacy.

Callos_DeTerran
2011-01-07, 11:42 PM
That might be debatable, as in the story Shadows in Zamboula, Conan did boast about having strangled a bull as a young lad, while Baal-pteor only specialised in strangling humans.

However, Conan's much superior endurance is what effectively won him the day when he counter-strangled Baal-pteor. Baal-pteor was underestimating Conan's fortitude, while his throat was crushed by the Cimmerian's hands.

Right right, that was the name. And the key word is 'boasting', Conan is hardly modest when he's bragging.

The Glyphstone
2011-01-07, 11:46 PM
Yeah, but the story makes it clear that he's taking no harm, and doesn't say he's fatigued. He didn't have his luck depleted either. He was owning them. Also, I missed something.

.

I'd call 'not getting stabbed' to be lucky, myself. Both of those excerpts could, in D&D terms, represent getting hit and losing HP - but because 3.5 is binary in its health terms, Full HP and 1 away from 0 look identical to an outsider.

Drynwyn
2011-01-07, 11:51 PM
Although when I DM, I allow an estimate of remaining hp with a heal check.
Also, it just has no mechanical effect. The person can still be visibly hurt.

DeltaEmil
2011-01-07, 11:55 PM
Right right, that was the name. And the key word is 'boasting', Conan is hardly modest when he's bragging.Perhaps, but Conan did say that when Baal-pteor was already dead, and why would he need to exagerate in this case?

Ytaker
2011-01-08, 12:11 AM
Depends on his AC bonus. The enemies attacked him at least 4 times. I'm too sleepy to work out what their hit chance would be.


He was not sure that his legs were unbroken. His black locks were plastered with sweat; blood trickled from the wounds in his throat and hands. He hitched up on one arm, struggling with the debris that prisoned him.

This combat systems models HP loss with physical damage. It's part of his power. He can keep going despite grievous wounds.

Tiki Snakes
2011-01-08, 02:53 PM
Barbarian the class fits conan from the books pretty terribly.

Jayabalard
2011-01-10, 10:37 AM
He points out that the highest DC for tracking in core rules is 15. So, the terrain doesn't matter. He said that for survival (as in getting them through the woods from when he meets them to rivendell), not for tracking. It totally glosses over the DCs for tracking, which is the far more significant feat.

For tracking the max DC is 20, depending on terrain, and tracking at twice your speed (ie, at a run like he did) is a -20 modifier to your roll or an effective +20 to the DC. He does it through the night (either a +3 or +6 to the DC if there's no moon); he's able to pick up signs of the hobbits (2 creatures), not just the uruks, and tracks the hobbits themselves once they hit fangorn, so the bonuses for multiple quarries don't really apply. Hobbits are small, for an additional +1. I seem to recall there being mention of the Uruks covering the trail, and certainly tracking someone through a battlefield (picking up the trail after be uruk's battle with Eomer) would be comparable, if not worse, and that's another +5. And there's mention of Saruman using his magic to aid the Uruks and hinder the 3 pursuing them (hard to quantify, probably somethling like a morale penalty to Aragon based on the way magic works in Middlearth). That could put the DC over 52 (depending on what you do about Saruman's magic), and Aragorn does this without batting an eye, without failing a single roll over quite a long time.


Ah, yeah, oops about the average.the quick rule of thumb for any even distribution: it's always (min + max) / 2, and since dice (at least the ones you'd use in D&D) are always an even number, they'll always end in .5 for a single die


The story shows that in close combat he can take them (no injuries reported) but that with ranged combat they'd defeat him. If he could get back into close combat he could win. Well, that makes your number make even less sense.


Yeah, but the story makes it clear that he's taking no harm, and doesn't say he's fatigued. He didn't have his luck depleted either. He was owning them. That doesn't mean no hp damage. And like was said above, not being skewered can count as being lucky. You've no reason to assume he was even above half his HP.


So, 5.5*12=66 damage on average. That's only a single set of attacks; unless he can kill all of them, all at once, he's going to take significantly more than that.

And since you're saying that he can take them if he were to close... that becomes the lower bound on his HP, not upper, since he's likely to take that much even if he were to close with them.


The knarr is the Norse term for ships that were built for Atlantic voyages. They were cargo ships with a length of about 54 feet (21m), a beam of 15 feet (4.5m), and a hull capable of carrying up to 24 tons.[2] Overall displacement: 50 tons. Knarrs routinely crossed the North Atlantic centuries ago carrying livestock and stores to Greenland. It was capable of sailing 75 miles within in one day and held a crew of about 20-30. The Knarr is also strictly a sailing vessel (no oars) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medieval_ships), so that's an apples to oranges comparison; the ship in question has oars, which is why I had to go digging around for the snekkja (which is a comparable sized ship with both sail and oarsmen) ... it carries about as many other crew as it does oarsmen, which is fairly typical for boats of that era.

Note: this doesn't mean that you're wrong about the numbers of the crew, just that Howard may have been... but I seem to recall that he's usually pretty good about details like that.

things that hint to me that the crew is quite a bit bigger than that

It seems totally unrealistic to take 20 men if your crew is ~25 ... taking that many leaves your ship totally undefended. More realistic would be to leave about half of your group behind and take only half.
If you're a pirate and going to maneuver with oars, you need the oars manned when taking a ship. That mean that you need all of the oars filled, and then in addition to that, you need a body of fighting men that can actually take your victim; a crew size of 25 is far too small to pull that off.



So, I shall suggest a possible character. Level 5 barbarian. 48 skill points, strength 18 and constitution 16 dexterity 18. He's facing level one spearmen. Why level 1?They could be significantly higher level, assuming power attack (which he has, since you assume he has cleave) and high strength. If you're going to assume barbarian, that cranks strength up even higher. Even if you assume he's only 5th level, he could *easily* be 1 shotting unarmored/lightly armored 4th level warriors.


What can't this character do, that he does in the novels? Well, among other things: look at those spearmen and know that he would win if he could close with them (which you say is his evaluation of the situation). As you've portrayed him, he would almost certainly die.

Jayabalard
2011-01-11, 09:57 AM
Also on Aragorn: the chase itself. They chase (not walking, at a run, no sleep) the uruks for 4 days or so ... they encounter Eomer on the 4th day; that's in the neighborhood of 80-90 hours of running. I imagine this is why rangers get endurance at 3rd level, but that's only a +4 bonus to running related saves.

You could treat that as hustling, which seems pretty appropriate to how they were moving. It was definitely more than a forced march.
A character can hustle for 1 hour without a problem. Hustling for a second hour in between sleep cycles deals 1 point of nonlethal damage, and each additional hour deals twice the damage taken during the previous hour of hustling. A character who takes any nonlethal damage from hustling becomes fatigued.So we assume they go for 80 hours, that's 1208925819614629174706175 points of non-lethal damage. Any proposed builds for Aragorn, Gimli, or Legolas needs to be able to deal wtih that.

Even if it were a forced march (which I don't agree with, they weren't walking, they were running), you'd have to deal with save DCs up to 142, with each failed save being 1d6 non-lethal damage.

So, any 5th level build of Aragon needs to be able to deal with this; I can't see a way, but perhaps someone out there can.

Eldan
2011-01-11, 10:03 AM
And how can you build a level 20 build to do that, without magic? I'd rather just say that those rules are stupid.

kamikasei
2011-01-11, 10:08 AM
So, any 5th level build of Aragon needs to be able to deal with this; I can't see a way, but perhaps someone out there can.
If each round you are dealt double the damage you took in the previous round, can you take no damage in the first place (not sure how to accomplish this - would Regeneration cover it?) to short-circuit the entire cascade?

Jayabalard
2011-01-11, 10:08 AM
And how can you build a level 20 build to do that, without magic? I'd rather just say that those rules are stupid.If you make an assertions that Aragorn is low level, and that you can make this determination based on the rules of D&D, then you can't just throw things just because it's inconvenient to your position.

This is part of pointing out how that article glosses over anything not convenient to his "Aragorn was low level" stance.


If each round you are dealt double the damage you took in the previous round, can you take no damage in the first place (not sure how to accomplish this - would Regeneration cover it?) to short-circuit the entire cascade?the rules specify 1 damage for the 2nd hour of hustling.

edit whoops: Keep in mind that the damage is per hour, not round.

kamikasei
2011-01-11, 10:12 AM
If you make an assertions that Aragorn is low level, and that you can make this determination based on the rules of D&D, then you can't just throw things just because it's inconvenient to your position.
On the other hand, he has a point that if it's impossible for a level 20 build too then the rule is pretty much irrelevant to the point - the characters aren't obeying it at all.

the rules specify 1 damage for the 2nd hour of hustling.
Yes, but can that 1 point dealt be soaked somehow so that it's never taken?

edit whoops: Keep in mind that the damage is per hour, not round.
True, but I'm not sure it makes a difference to my suggestion.

Jayabalard
2011-01-11, 10:23 AM
On the other hand, he has a point that if it's impossible for a level 20 build too then the rule is pretty much irrelevant to the point - the characters aren't obeying it at all.Why set an arbitrary upper limit of level 20? I wouldn't be suprised if there were some epic way of avoiding non-lethal damage, so it may be possible at lvl 21+

And certainly, a level 1208925819614629174706175 ranger could do it, so we know it can be done within the rules of D&D.

Eldan
2011-01-11, 10:32 AM
Yes. However, that same ranger, in the framework of D&D, would also have a base attack bonus of +1208925819614629174706175/2+10. I'm not seeing that. And that much times about six skill points. Also, with that will save, he could easily carry the ring himself.

Chainsaw Hobbit
2011-01-11, 10:53 AM
I'd say Conan is at least level 12. He's a kickass barbarian hero, not a petty thug.
Probably a fighter 5 / barbarian 5 / factotum 2.

The Glyphstone
2011-01-11, 10:57 AM
I'd say Conan is at least level 12. He's a kickass barbarian hero, not a petty thug.
Probably a fighter 5 / barbarian 5 / factotum 2.

Arglblarglbarlgle.

Fighter 5? :smallconfused:fighter 5?:smalleek:

Barbarian doesn't really fit him either - he doesn't fight in a berzerker rage, he's quite tactical and controlled most of the time. Despite his name, he's definitely not a D&D Barbarian class.

Jayabalard
2011-01-11, 11:05 AM
Yes. However, that same ranger, in the framework of D&D, would also have a base attack bonus of +1208925819614629174706175/2+10. I'm not seeing that. And that much times about six skill points. Also, with that will save, he could easily carry the ring himself.Wouldn't his BAB would be 20, with a fairly large ([level - 20] /2 ) epic attack bonus?

You're making the assumption that the rest of the world isn't similarly advanced. Assuming the world is low level in order to show that the world is low level is circular reasoning.

We're looking at the boundary conditions; 1208925819614629174706175 is just an example of a build that can actually do the chase; that doesn't mean it's the lowest level where that's true. I find it highly likely that it's lower, but I don't see a way to do it at the asserted "level 5"


Arglblarglbarlgle.

Fighter 5? :smallconfused:fighter 5?:smalleek:it's a better fit than barbarian.

kamikasei
2011-01-11, 11:08 AM
it's a better fit than barbarian.
Yeah, but it's an odd number of fighter levels.

Jayabalard
2011-01-11, 11:22 AM
Yeah, but it's an odd number of fighter levels.maybe he's currently working on his 6th level of fighter :smallbiggrin:

The Glyphstone
2011-01-11, 11:22 AM
Yeah, but it's an odd number of fighter levels.

Precisely.

Ytaker
2011-01-11, 02:19 PM
For tracking the max DC is 20, depending on terrain, and tracking at twice your speed (ie, at a run like he did) is a -20 modifier to your roll or an effective +20 to the DC. He does it through the night (either a +3 or +6 to the DC if there's no moon); he's able to pick up signs of the hobbits (2 creatures), not just the uruks, and tracks the hobbits themselves once they hit fangorn, so the bonuses for multiple quarries don't really apply. Hobbits are small, for an additional +1. I seem to recall there being mention of the Uruks covering the trail, and certainly tracking someone through a battlefield (picking up the trail after be uruk's battle with Eomer) would be comparable, if not worse, and that's another +5. And there's mention of Saruman using his magic to aid the Uruks and hinder the 3 pursuing them (hard to quantify, probably somethling like a morale penalty to Aragon based on the way magic works in Middlearth). That could put the DC over 52 (depending on what you do about Saruman's magic), and Aragorn does this without batting an eye, without failing a single roll over quite a long time.

Indeed, if he could actually pass those checks he would be a much higher level ranger. He can't. The story repeatedly mentions he seeks soft ground and he has to take 20 when the uroks are on the battleground.


Aragorn sped on up the hill. Every now and again he bent to the ground. Hobbits go light, and
their footprints are not easy even for a Ranger to read, but not far from the top a spring crossed
the path, and in the wet earth he saw what he was seeking.

That's why he stopped to look, and looked in areas with a low DC check. He says himself that he can't make a max DC check.


For some time the companions crawled and groped upon the ground.

For the uroks he took 20, to ensure he'd roll the max result. The entire party took 20.


Then again
beneath the bole of a great tree on the very edge of the wood more prints were discovered. The
earth was bare and dry, and did not reveal much.

His skill isn't high enough to overcome a DC check of 15.


he returned
often to the banks of the stream. So it was that he came upon the place where Merry and Pippin had
drunk and bathed their feet. There plain for all to see were the footprints of two hobbits, one
somewhat smaller than the other.

By using in game intuition, he found a place with a DC check of 5, which everyone could succeed at, even those without a tracking feat. They then followed the hobbits up the river where there were many easy track checks because of the soft wet earth.


The companions climbed up. Aragorn came last, moving slowly: he was scanning the steps and
ledges closely.
'I am almost sure that the hobbits have been up here,'

On a DC check of 20 (hard rock), he could identify that hobbits had been there but not identify which way they went.

Logically from all that, he must have a pretty low tracking skill. 5-10? He suggested if he took 20 he could overcome the hard rock.

Then gandalf appeared and said that the DM was bored of them tracking (probably why he put the hard rock there) and that they should go kill orcs and advance the plot in Edoras.


the quick rule of thumb for any even distribution: it's always (min + max) / 2, and since dice (at least the ones you'd use in D&D) are always an even number, they'll always end in .5 for a single die

Yeah, I know, I was working way too fast.


That doesn't mean no hp damage. And like was said above, not being skewered can count as being lucky. You've no reason to assume he was even above half his HP.

The luck thing is a unique feature of the dnd health system. Do you have any evidence that it applies to Conan?


That's only a single set of attacks; unless he can kill all of them, all at once, he's going to take significantly more than that.

He wasn't having any trouble killing them in close combat.


And since you're saying that he can take them if he were to close... that becomes the lower bound on his HP, not upper, since he's likely to take that much even if he were to close with them.

They just couldn't hit him. With all his feats and abilities they probably could only hit him on a natural 20. I'd presume the pirates were supposed to be aiming well with their spears, or had some circumstance modifier for him standing still.


Note: this doesn't mean that you're wrong about the numbers of the crew, just that Howard may have been... but I seem to recall that he's usually pretty good about details like that.

So what, he was lying in the story when he said that there were 25 crew members?


It seems totally unrealistic to take 20 men if your crew is ~25 ... taking that many leaves your ship totally undefended. More realistic would be to leave about half of your group behind and take only half.

It makes more sense to take your main combat force for land.


If you're a pirate and going to maneuver with oars, you need the oars manned when taking a ship. That mean that you need all of the oars filled, and then in addition to that, you need a body of fighting men that can actually take your victim; a crew size of 25 is far too small to pull that off.
[/LIST]


Well, ok, they had a number of oarsmen back in the ship who weren't throwing spears at Conan.


They could be significantly higher level, assuming power attack (which he has, since you assume he has cleave) and high strength. If you're going to assume barbarian, that cranks strength up even higher. Even if you assume he's only 5th level, he could *easily* be 1 shotting unarmored/lightly armored 4th level warriors.

So what, he's too high level?


Well, among other things: look at those spearmen and know that he would win if he could close with them (which you say is his evaluation of the situation). As you've portrayed him, he would almost certainly die.

They can't all attack him at once in melee due to the physics of it. And every time he closes with them he can cleave them and kill several at once. He could probably take them.

Chainsaw Hobbit
2011-01-11, 07:07 PM
Arglblarglbarlgle.

Fighter 5? :smallconfused:fighter 5?:smalleek:

Barbarian doesn't really fit him either - he doesn't fight in a berzerker rage, he's quite tactical and controlled most of the time. Despite his name, he's definitely not a D&D Barbarian class.

Actually, I agree.
More of a fighter 8 / factotum 4.

Jayabalard
2011-01-12, 01:04 AM
For the uroks he took 20, to ensure he'd roll the max result. The entire party took 20.You can't take 20 on track, since one of the requirements for taking 20 is "the skill being attempted carries no penalties for failure" ... this is because taking 20 assumes that you will have multiple failures. Failing a track roll has a penalty for failure: you can't retry for a specific amount of time. "If you fail a Survival check, you can retry after 1 hour (outdoors) or 10 minutes (indoors) of searching."


That's why he stopped to look, I don't agree the way that you are interpreting move penalties work. Once you are following the tracks, you have to keep making a survival check every mile or any time the tracks are hard to follow, and you would use the average move since the last check for those checks. You don't get to slow down and then check, since you have to make the roll when the difficulty of tracking changes (unless you're willing to fail that roll, wait an hour and then retry ... but that didn't happen). They're moving at a run, and in D&D terms that would probaly be a hustle (that seems to be the way that you do distance running in D&D), which would put him at the -20 to track the entire time during the chase.

You're also missing the size modifier to the DC... it's +1 since hobbits are small. And that he's 2 days behind the hobbits (missed that myself: "Yet the marks are two days old" - Aragon in fangorn) for another +2. And we're not accounting for Saruman's influence (can't find the quote on that, but there's something about him hindering the chasers).

So he has trouble making a dc 23 check (that DC doesn't account for the fact that the hobbits had been picked up and were being carried by treebeard, which is probably at least as bad as someone hiding their tracks); perhaps he rolled a 1?

You're also ignoring the checks he had to make during the previous 3 nights, which would have either +3 or +6 modifier to the DC, depending on if there's a moon.


The luck thing is a unique feature of the dnd health system. Do you have any evidence that it applies to Conan?Uh... what? We're talking about representing Conan in D&D. If someone is going to make an argument about his level based on D&D's definition of HP, you have to use the D&D's definition of what HP means. That means that HP is not just wounds, it's luck, close calls, near misses, glancing blows, fatigue, etc. So you can't assume that he was at his full HP just because he didn't have any wounds described, because that's not what HP means in D&D.


He wasn't having any trouble killing them in close combat.Sure, but that doesn't mean he's not going to take significantly more damage than a single rounds worth while he kills 14+ people. If just means that he'll whittle the number down each round.


They just couldn't hit him. With all his feats and abilities they probably could only hit him on a natural 20. I'd presume the pirates were supposed to be aiming well with their spears, or had some circumstance modifier for him standing still.That doesn't jibe with the earlier assessment. If they can only hit him on a natural 20, then he has nothing to fear from them whether he closes or not. He would not "tense himself to leap and die in the midst of them" since they're going to miss him anyway.

Nor am I clear on how you're saying he is so defended; If he's level 5, his AC is probably somewhere in the 16-17 range (it would be 18 if he had a chain shirt and 18 dex), and his opponents almost certainly have at least a +1 to hit (they have a racial bonus to strength, as mentioned elsewhere in the thread), and would be able to flank him. that puts him far below "only hit on a 20"

And unless he's got schodinger's feat, he doesn't have many feats other than power attack, cleave, and (from what you've said) great cleave ... unless he's not low level. So "With all his feats and abilities" doesn't make any sense.


So what, he was lying in the story when he said that there were 25 crew members?I'm not clear on what you're trying to say here.

What I'm saying is that I'm not totally convinced that the text says that there's only 25 people (it's been too long since I've read that story, and the quoted text doesn't clear say that), and if it does, then Howard didn't do his research.


It makes more sense to take your main combat force for land.Why? if someone comes in and takes your boat, you're stuck there. That's a pretty big deal in Conan's world, especially if you're somewhere and don't even know where water is. If you need water, you send a scouting party, not everybody but Bob, Jim and Fred.


So what, he's too high level?No, just that there's nothing to show that his opponents are level 1; it's just circular reasoning. It's certainly possible, but it's not valid to assume that to be true.


They can't all attack him at once in melee due to the physics of it. And every time he closes with them he can cleave them and kill several at once. He could probably take them.He can cleave 1 if he has cleave, or multiple if he has great cleave. Great Cleave requires BAB +4 ... so that pretty much requires 4 levels of fighter to get it at the proposed level. That still burns through a lot of his feats, and I'm not sure he'll actually be able to do all the other things Conan does as a fighter 4/ something 1 with 3 feats already spoken for.

If you don't portray him with great cleave, I don't think he can kill them fast enough to have a reliable chance to survive at 5th level.

Gamgee
2011-01-12, 01:21 AM
Actually Conan is a Barbarian. At least one level in it if we are going by Mongoose Publishing's custom game rules. The barbarians there generally only rage when they fail a fear saving throw. Conan doesn't fail fear saving throws. ;)

Cimmerians are all level 1 Barbarians. The books Barbarians. it's ingrained in their culture as they fight off other foes themselves. No real upstanding army so to speak. So minimum for him would be starting level of Barbarian. We also know he was a thief later on. So definitely a mix of those two classes from the book, but I'm leaning a few more Barbarian levels. The book itself just gives suggestions on how to stat him, but assures the reader he is quite probably very high level.

Edit
They are also given +2 to stats. Also Cimmerienas are expert climbers. A skill that comes in handy as a thief. The race get's a bonus to this skill. The book is quite insightful. I'm just getting into the lore, but the world is fantastic.

Ytaker
2011-01-12, 05:54 AM
You can't take 20 on track, since one of the requirements for taking 20 is "the skill being attempted carries no penalties for failure" ... this is because taking 20 assumes that you will have multiple failures. Failing a track roll has a penalty for failure: you can't retry for a specific amount of time. "If you fail a Survival check, you can retry after 1 hour (outdoors) or 10 minutes (indoors) of searching."

They did a more thorough search, anyway, and it provided a bonus to their search check. Maybe a house rule that spending more time on it provides a bonus to any search? Or maybe he took 10? I dunno.


I don't agree the way that you are interpreting move penalties work. Once you are following the tracks, you have to keep making a survival check every mile or any time the tracks are hard to follow, and you would use the average move since the last check for those checks.

They didn't do that. They wandered around finding ocassional foot prints until they found a consistant trail along the river, with a low DC check. There was no tracking only "Yes, this is a footprint. No, I can't follow it.


At one point, near the bank of the Entwash,
he came upon footprints: hobbit-prints, but too light for much to be made of them. Then again
beneath the bole of a great tree on the very edge of the wood more prints were discovered. The
earth was bare and dry, and did not reveal much.


There was little for him to see. The floor of the forest was dry and covered
with a drift of leaves; but guessing that the fugitives would stay near the water, he returned
often to the banks of the stream. So it was that he came upon the place where Merry and Pippin had
drunk and bathed their feet. There plain for all to see were the footprints of two hobbits, one
somewhat smaller than the other.

That's pretty much consistant with how he tracks. He walks around till he finds tracks which either give him a vague direction for the hobbit, or obviously can having tracking applied to them.


You don't get to slow down and then check, since you have to make the roll when the difficulty of tracking changes (unless you're willing to fail that roll, wait an hour and then retry ... but that didn't happen). They're moving at a run, and in D&D terms that would probaly be a hustle (that seems to be the way that you do distance running in D&D), which would put him at the -20 to track the entire time during the chase.

Yeah, he didn't do that. He guessed mostly where they'd go. Plus there wasn't much mention of him running.


You're also missing the size modifier to the DC... it's +1 since hobbits are small. And that he's 2 days behind the hobbits (missed that myself: "Yet the marks are two days old" - Aragon in fangorn) for another +2. And we're not accounting for Saruman's influence (can't find the quote on that, but there's something about him hindering the chasers).

Saruman scared their horses off, I think, by possessing someone around or making a ghosty form.


It was an evil phantom of Saruman that we saw last
night. I am sure of it, even under the light of morning. His eyes are looking out on us from
Fangorn even now, maybe.'

Other than the lack of their horses, it wasn't noted to impede them.


So he has trouble making a dc 23 check (that DC doesn't account for the fact that the hobbits had been picked up and were being carried by treebeard, which is probably at least as bad as someone hiding their tracks); perhaps he rolled a 1?

He continually failed hard rolls and only got basic information about the hobbits, so I doubt it was just luck. This was an even harder check than ones before.



You're also ignoring the checks he had to make during the previous 3 nights, which would have either +3 or +6 modifier to the DC, depending on if there's a moon.

He failed most of them. Only succeeded on the muddy bank.


Uh... what? We're talking about representing Conan in D&D. If someone is going to make an argument about his level based on D&D's definition of HP, you have to use the D&D's definition of what HP means. That means that HP is not just wounds, it's luck, close calls, near misses, glancing blows, fatigue, etc. So you can't assume that he was at his full HP just because he didn't have any wounds described, because that's not what HP means in D&D.

That's one slightly weird way of modelling it in DND. I and a lot normally model it with cuts and damage. All the player handbook says is that hit points represent "How hard you are to kill". It doesn't tell you what system you have to use to model it. The writer isn't writing it in such a way that he has been injured.


Sure, but that doesn't mean he's not going to take significantly more damage than a single rounds worth while he kills 14+ people. If just means that he'll whittle the number down each round.

They withdrew because they couldn't kill him in close combat.

If I was to guess, the writer believed that they would be able to throw especially accurately when their enemy was still or moving towards them, and they weren't in combat. This is a dissonance that doesn't really fit well with dnd- they couldn't hit him in combat, but they could hit him in ranged enough to kill him in one round.


That doesn't jibe with the earlier assessment. If they can only hit him on a natural 20, then he has nothing to fear from them whether he closes or not. He would not "tense himself to leap and die in the midst of them" since they're going to miss him anyway.

Or they just, chose their feats to make them effective ranged combatants, not effective close combat combatants. Or you get some sort of accuracy boost when you're standing still from circumstance bonuses.


Nor am I clear on how you're saying he is so defended; If he's level 5, his AC is probably somewhere in the 16-17 range (it would be 18 if he had a chain shirt and 18 dex), and his opponents almost certainly have at least a +1 to hit (they have a racial bonus to strength, as mentioned elsewhere in the thread), and would be able to flank him. that puts him far below "only hit on a 20"

Ok, so they have to roll a 17 to hit. One in seven to one in five. Seems pretty reasonable.


And unless he's got schodinger's feat, he doesn't have many feats other than power attack, cleave, and (from what you've said) great cleave ... unless he's not low level. So "With all his feats and abilities" doesn't make any sense.

Yeah, I'd was totally dazed from lack of sleep back then. I knew he was somewhere around 20, I just couldn't think precisely enough where. 17-18 seems reasonable.


I'm not clear on what you're trying to say here.

You were right


Battle and raid had thinned their crew; only some eighty spear-men remained, scarcely enough to work the long galley. But Belit would not take the time to make the long cruise southward to the island kingdoms where she recruited her buccaneers. She was afire with eagerness for her latest venture; so the Tigress swung into the river mouth, the oarsmen pulling strongly as she breasted the broad current.

Sadly, that makes it quite hard to say how much health he had. He could have faced 10 warriors. He could have faced 40.


No, just that there's nothing to show that his opponents are level 1; it's just circular reasoning. It's certainly possible, but it's not valid to assume that to be true.

They died from one bow hit. Can't have much health. It wasn't even a longbow.

Jayabalard
2011-01-12, 04:06 PM
They did a more thorough search, anyway, and it provided a bonus to their search check. Maybe a house rule that spending more time on it provides a bonus to any search? Or maybe he took 10? I dunno.Taking 10 is pretty reasonable there.


They didn't do that. They wandered around finding ocassional foot prints until they found a consistant trail along the river, with a low DC check. There was no tracking only "Yes, this is a footprint. No, I can't follow it.There's also

They went in single file, running like hounds on a strong scent, and an eager light was in their eyes. Nearly due west the broad swath of the marching Orcs tramped its ugly slot; the sweet grass of Rohan had been bruised and blackened as they passed. Presently Aragorn gave a cry and turned aside. "Stay!" he shouted. "Do not follow me yet!" He ran quickly to the right, away from the main trail; for he had seen footprints that went that way, branching off from the others, the marks of small unshod feet.He spotted pippin's footprints, while on the run. That'd be a DC 18 check (small hobbits, 2 days behind, normal ground), or 23 if you count the orcs as obscuring the tracks of the hobbits in a similar manner to someone covering thier tracks, at -20 due to "running like a hound".

the DC might be 1 less (they might not be a full 2 days behind at that point)


Yeah, he didn't do that. He guessed mostly where they'd go. Plus there wasn't much mention of him running.There are several mentions of them running; the most memorable for me is Gimli's quip about not being able to run all the way to Isengard (I remember it mostly from the animated LOTR, but it's in the book as well).


Other than the lack of their horses, it wasn't noted to impede them.I seem to remember there was something else; I'll take another look tonight.


That's one slightly weird way of modelling it in DND. I and a lot normally model it with cuts and damage. All the player handbook says is that hit points represent "How hard you are to kill". It doesn't tell you what system you have to use to model it. The writer isn't writing it in such a way that he has been injured.How hard you are to kill includes your luck, and your skill at deflecting injuries (turning a wounding blow into a glancing blow, taking a hit on your armor rather than unarmored parts of the body, etc). That's why your HP increase as you level... you don't get that much tougher, you get that much more skilled at turning a wounding blow into a nothing.


Ok, so they have to roll a 17 to hit. One in seven to one in five. Seems pretty reasonable. It's probably more like 13-14 due to the strength bonus (that race is depicted as stronger than normal as noted by someone else) and flanking; if it's their primary weapon, and they use it a lot, it might even be reasonable for them to have weapon focus for another +1. Maybe another +1 or +2 for their BAB (either as level 2 warriors, level 1 fighters or even level 2 fighters). It could be as low as 10: 16 AC from scalemail (I've seen quite a bit of art with him in that) and +2 from dex vs the + 6 from all of the possible bonuses above, but that's kind of far fetched (although it doesn't get into "what if they have masterworked/magical spears, which would just be silly).

As far as I can figure, Conan can't have Improved uncanny dodge and great cleave unless he's higher than lvl 5; personally, I think that's an appropriate ability for him. He could have it with rogue 4/barbarian 2, but I don't think that build fits him very well; he needs more fighting man levels. Add in a some warblade levels and that starts to look promising.


They died from one bow hit. Can't have much health. It wasn't even a longbow.Hmm, it's hard to tell exactly what sort of bow he'd be using; whether it's a composite bow or not, which could let him apply some or all of his strength bonus to damage. Bows are x3 crit, and that really expands how much damage he could have been doing. And if he has rogue levels, he can add sneak attack dice (depending on the situation).

But that does narrow it down a bit, as his damage potential with power attack and using a weapon in 2 hands is much higher.

The Big Dice
2011-01-12, 04:38 PM
How hard you are to kill includes your luck, and your skill at deflecting injuries (turning a wounding blow into a glancing blow, taking a hit on your armor rather than unarmored parts of the body, etc). That's why your HP increase as you level... you don't get that much tougher, you get that much more skilled at turning a wounding blow into a nothing.Problem is,that doesn't allow for falling damage. You can't really turn an impact with the ground into a glancing blow. Hitting a hard surface doesn't care if you're wearing armour or not.

Hit Points just don't stand up to scrutiny.

Jayabalard
2011-01-12, 04:43 PM
Problem is,that doesn't allow for falling damage. You can't really turn an impact with the ground into a glancing blow. Hitting a hard surface doesn't care if you're wearing armour or not.

Hit Points just don't stand up to scrutiny.Skill can turn a bad fall into a not as bad fall. In general though, luck plays a bigger part than skill or toughness for falling damage.

And if HP don't stand up to scrutiny, then any argument based on something like "he would have been killed by X, so must have only had Y HP so can only be Z level" is inherently flawed.


Actually Conan is a Barbarian. At least one level in it if we are going by Mongoose Publishing's custom game rules. The barbarians there generally only rage when they fail a fear saving throw. Conan doesn't fail fear saving throws. ;) Or if you go with the official AD&D versions he's a fighter 9/thief 5 (I think... it's been a long time since I browsed through conan unchained!)

Ytaker
2011-01-12, 05:35 PM
There's also
He spotted pippin's footprints, while on the run. That'd be a DC 18 check (small hobbits, 2 days behind, normal ground), or 23 if you count the orcs as obscuring the tracks of the hobbits in a similar manner to someone covering thier tracks, at -20 due to "running like a hound".


These, however, did not go far before they were crossed by orc-prints,
also coming out from the main trail

Yes, and he failed that check and was unable to track the hobbits. It wasn't a bad failure and the DM was kind enough to give him some information even on a failure, but he still failed that check.

Everyone was able to recognise hobbit feet, so I'd guess the DC for that was pretty low.


There are several mentions of them running; the most memorable for me is Gimli's quip about not being able to run all the way to Isengard (I remember it mostly from the animated LOTR, but it's in the book as well).

Yeah, but when they were tracking they didn't run.


How hard you are to kill includes your luck, and your skill at deflecting injuries (turning a wounding blow into a glancing blow, taking a hit on your armor rather than unarmored parts of the body, etc). That's why your HP increase as you level... you don't get that much tougher, you get that much more skilled at turning a wounding blow into a nothing.

Or, you just get tougher each level, more able to endure physical injury. There's no reason to believe the author of Conan is following your approach. It assumes there's some sort of magical luck force protecting you which can be depleted, and that a hit that bounces off your armour will do damage serious enough to stop you.


It's probably more like 13-14 due to the strength bonus (that race is depicted as stronger than normal as noted by someone else) and flanking; if it's their primary weapon, and they use it a lot, it might even be reasonable for them to have weapon focus for another +1. Maybe another +1 or +2 for their BAB (either as level 2 warriors, level 1 fighters or even level 2 fighters). It could be as low as 10: 16 AC from scalemail (I've seen quite a bit of art with him in that) and +2 from dex vs the + 6 from all of the possible bonuses above, but that's kind of far fetched (although it doesn't get into "what if they have masterworked/magical spears, which would just be silly).

Dunno if they were flanking. He killed them pretty fast.

Can't be level 2. If they were, some of them would have survived his bow attacks.

No bonus for strength.


She is a Shemite woman, who leads black raiders.

The person was mentioning Conan's race. As in, Conan would have higher stats.

They started by peppering the ship with arrows, and could have killed Conan with a spear throw. I'd lean towards them having some archery feats. It would explain why they were so effective.


As far as I can figure, Conan can't have Improved uncanny dodge and great cleave unless he's higher than lvl 5; personally, I think that's an appropriate ability for him. He could have it with rogue 4/barbarian 2, but I don't think that build fits him very well; he needs more fighting man levels. Add in a some warblade levels and that starts to look promising.

He does then become nigh unkillable, and has absurdly high stats. Besides, in story he's not flanked because he's always moving forward and cutting a swathe through the enemies.


Hmm, it's hard to tell exactly what sort of bow he'd be using; whether it's a composite bow or not, which could let him apply some or all of his strength bonus to damage. Bows are x3 crit, and that really expands how much damage he could have been doing. And if he has rogue levels, he can add sneak attack dice (depending on the situation).

He wouldn't often roll a crit. And composite bows aren't that common. The mongols and Genghis Khan had them, but they weren't mongols as far as I know.

They had shields and could have defended themselves. Not sure if they'd qualify for sneak attacks.

Jayabalard
2011-01-12, 06:40 PM
Yes, and he failed that check and was unable to track the hobbits. It wasn't a bad failure and the DM was kind enough to give him some information even on a failure, but he still failed that check.Seeing the footprints was a success; he failed his second check. So he passed the DC18 check with a -20 to his roll to see them, and then failed the DC23 (or higher perhaps) check to continue following them . Doable if he rolled really well the first time and badly the 2nd time.


Or, you just get tougher each level, more able to endure physical injury. There's no reason to believe the author of Conan is following your approach. Of course the author didn't use the D&D approach. He isn't writing a D&D character, Conan doesn't have levels, HP, or character classes.

BUT, a D&D representation of Conan does have to obey the way that HP work in D&D. If you're going to make arguments based on how much HP he had, then those HP are what D&D says they are.


Can't be level 2. If they were, some of them would have survived his bow attacks.Not necessarily; Some of them could have been level 2; he could have even killed some of them with crits/sneak attack dice. They could have had slightly below average hp for their level.

And I'm not actually seeing anything that says that he 1 shot killed any of them. Even the first is only "sent the arrow through the body of a tall plumed spearman beside her." ... that doesn't even say it kills him. So your assumption of 1 shot kills with the bow looks unsupported. Does it say this elsewhere?


No bonus for strength.Citation? As I say below, it's quite likely a composite bow.


The person was mentioning Conan's race. As in, Conan would have higher stats.He said that the people of the black kingdom got a bonus to strength; Conan is a Cimmerian, which is in the north; the black kingdoms are in the southwest. The black coast is along the black kingdoms. The people on Belit's ship are from the black kingdoms. So he said that the strength bonus is for the people attacking Conan.

Conan's race gets a bonus too iirc.


They started by peppering the ship with arrows, and could have killed Conan with a spear throw. I'd lean towards them having some archery feats. It would explain why they were so effective.Possibly; that's the way you'd want to fight at sea.

I'm not actually seeing that anything that's saying that he would have been killed for certain, but I DO see something saying that he is wounded:

"Ho, N'Yaga!" her voice twanged like a bowstring. "Fetch herbs and dress your master's wounds! The rest of you bring aboard the plunder and cast off."This seems quite clearly talking about Conan, who has just agreed to sail with Belit and be the King to her Queen. So your assumption that he's unwounded, not valid.


He does then become nigh unkillable, and has absurdly high stats. Besides, in story he's not flanked because he's always moving forward and cutting a swathe through the enemies.You can't do that in D&D, because it's turn based; one of the ways that you'd approximate it is to have enough hp to survive the attacks. And he's quite clearly flanked in places when he's at "the center of a hurricane of stabbing spears and lashing clubs." he's being flanked.


He wouldn't often roll a crit. And composite bows aren't that common. The mongols and Genghis Khan had them, but they weren't mongols as far as I know.The Turks, Hungarians, Greeks, and Persians (modern day iran) also used composite bows; the black kingdoms is kind of in that neck of the woods, just across the mountains to the west of iranistan.

He gets the bow from Tito, who's from Argos, right? Argos ~= Greece.
from A book on geek archery (http://www.archerylibrary.com/books/badminton/docs/chapter04/chapter4_2.html)

That the Greek bow was commonly a composite, or at any rate a horn one, is evident from the epithet greek text [image], which is constantly applied to it by Homer. This word signifies the recurving peculiar to the horn bow when un strung, which is due to the horns regaining their natural shape, and it is best translated by the word reflex, which is the tech nical term describing a bow which, when unstrung, bends from the centre in the opposite direction to that in which it is drawn. So it seems that the bow was very likely a composite bow, but certainly for a much weaker man than Conan; he'd only get part of his strength bonus.


They had shields and could have defended themselves. Not sure if they'd qualify for sneak attacks.It basically depends on whether he got the drop on them, or shot them from hiding. Doesn't really look like it from the passages in that book though.

Half-Orc Rage
2011-01-12, 06:46 PM
I would argue that he does in fact have barbarian levels. The barbarian rage does not have to equal a foaming at the mouth, berserker style. The stories often describe Conan as going into a frenzy in battle, and going by instinct rather than skill (barbarian vs. fighter). Barbarians do not all become frenzied berserkers.

I would say barbarian/ranger, because he's stealthy and has outdoor skills but doesn't actually pick locks and that sort of thing. Really, you have to make all his stats pretty high to reflect the bad ass character he is in the Howard stories. Almost maxed out physical stats, and still pretty capable intelligence, wisdom, and charisma. I would say pretty high level by the time he's king of Aqualonia.

Jayabalard
2011-01-12, 06:50 PM
I would argue that he does in fact have barbarian levels. The barbarian rage does not have to equal a foaming at the mouth, berserker style. The stories often describe Conan as going into a frenzy in battle, and going by instinct rather than skill (barbarian vs. fighter). Barbarians do not all become frenzied berserkers.
He definitely has barbarian rage: "The fighting-madness of his race was upon him, and with a red mist of unreasoning fury wavering before his blazing eyes, he cleft skulls, smashed breasts, severed limbs, ripped out entrails, and littered the deck like a shambles with a ghastly harvest of brains and blood."



The men slept on deck or between the rowers' benches, protected in bad weather by canopies. With twenty men at the oars, three at the sweep, and the shipmaster, the crew was complete.
So, 24 crew members. Some sort of number around 20 is mentioned elsewhere in the story, so this seems reasonable.Whoa... I can't believe I missed that. That quote about crew size... that's the crew of the Argus, which is Tito's ship. Not Belit's ship with the raiders.

Also, Conan takes 20 men looking for water AFTER that fight, so the number of people he killed is immaterial. They don't reduce the crew one bit. It's at least 20 people ... and possibly far more.

Your crew numbers make no sense at all.

The Big Dice
2011-01-12, 07:09 PM
And if HP don't stand up to scrutiny, then any argument based on something like "he would have been killed by X, so must have only had Y HP so can only be Z level" is inherently flawed.
Which is completly right. D&D only really compares well to D&D. If you atart trying to model real world events with it, you inevitabl run in to some of the weirder aspects of the game.

Class and levels might work in play, at least for a lot of people. But if you start trying to compare class and level to real people, it always ends up with the game falling far short.

Knaight
2011-01-12, 07:36 PM
He definitely has barbarian rage: "The fighting-madness of his race was upon him, and with a red mist of unreasoning fury wavering before his blazing eyes, he cleft skulls, smashed breasts, severed limbs, ripped out entrails, and littered the deck like a shambles with a ghastly harvest of brains and blood."
If you argue the warblade angle, this can be represented easily with the Blood in the Water stance. Given that Tiger Claw and Iron Heart represent Conan the best, its not very much of a stretch. That said, D&D is a really, really awful system to use for literary or historical characters. GURPS, Fudge, Cortex, ORE, and Burning Wheel can all model Conan much better.

Ytaker
2011-01-13, 10:40 AM
Seeing the footprints was a success; he failed his second check. So he passed the DC18 check with a -20 to his roll to see them, and then failed the DC23 (or higher perhaps) check to continue following them . Doable if he rolled really well the first time and badly the 2nd time.

If he did, it was probably a high roll. He failed most of his rolls on tough soil.


Of course the author didn't use the D&D approach. He isn't writing a D&D character, Conan doesn't have levels, HP, or character classes.

BUT, a D&D representation of Conan does have to obey the way that HP work in D&D. If you're going to make arguments based on how much HP he had, then those HP are what D&D says they are.

I quoted the official book of players. The book leaves it open. A D&D representation of Conan doesn't have to follow your house rules of how HP works.

We're trying to work out how tough he thought Conan was based on a D&D scale, with the implication that D&D is good enough at modelling real life that it's applicable to completely different situations. If the author didn't think he lost any health, then he didn't lose any health.


Not necessarily; Some of them could have been level 2; he could have even killed some of them with crits/sneak attack dice. They could have had slightly below average hp for their level.

He only killed six people. We can't assume he got a critical, based on the probabilities of getting a critical. We also can't assume a ship of people preparing for war directly in his direction were unable to defend themselves. Generaly a sneak attack is done from behind.


And I'm not actually seeing anything that says that he 1 shot killed any of them. Even the first is only "sent the arrow through the body of a tall plumed spearman beside her." ... that doesn't even say it kills him. So your assumption of 1 shot kills with the bow looks unsupported. Does it say this elsewhere?

Look at the passage. He fired, they released a volley of arrows, he fired at least one more arrow they had time to release a volley of arrows and they attacked the people there, and then six were dead. Three turns of action, three attacks by them, six dead by him. He'd have to be level 16 to shoot them each twice, and a level 16 character would have had nothing to fear from even 80 level 1 enemies. Thinking about it, he attacks twice as fast as them so he must be minimum level 6.


He said that the people of the black kingdom got a bonus to strength; Conan is a Cimmerian, which is in the north; the black kingdoms are in the southwest. The black coast is along the black kingdoms. The people on Belit's ship are from the black kingdoms. So he said that the strength bonus is for the people attacking Conan.

Ohh, way earlier in the thread. Missed that.


I'm not actually seeing that anything that's saying that he would have been killed for certain, but I DO see something saying that he is wounded:
This seems quite clearly talking about Conan, who has just agreed to sail with Belit and be the King to her Queen. So your assumption that he's unwounded, not valid.

Ah, yeah. Although as I mentioned earlier, they had at least 80 men so we can't really make many arguments based on HP now. They could have done a huge variance of damage to him based on different numbers.


You can't do that in D&D, because it's turn based; one of the ways that you'd approximate it is to have enough hp to survive the attacks. And he's quite clearly flanked in places when he's at "the center of a hurricane of stabbing spears and lashing clubs." he's being flanked.

Ah, ok. I guess, being in a barbarian rage, he just ignored minor cuts. Didn't take damage into account.


He gets the bow from Tito, who's from Argos, right? Argos ~= Greece.
from A book on geek archery (http://www.archerylibrary.com/books/badminton/docs/chapter04/chapter4_2.html)
So it seems that the bow was very likely a composite bow, but certainly for a much weaker man than Conan; he'd only get part of his strength bonus.

So what, 1+ to damage? Still not enough to kill a level 2 warrior in one shot.

Also- yes, it says elsewhere that after depletion they had only 80 soldiers. So yes, they had a huge number of people. You were right. That means they attacked him with some number between 20 and 80 people, probably. Sadly that means that it's next to impossible to make an argument based on HP.

Jayabalard
2011-01-13, 11:14 AM
If he did, it was probably a high roll. He failed most of his rolls on tough soil.If he rolled a 20, he still had to have a +18 to track. That sets a fairly straightforward minimum level, doesn't it (15 ranks + skill focus so level 12)?


I quoted the official book of players. The book leaves it open. A D&D representation of Conan doesn't have to follow your house rules of how HP works.What you quoted agrees with what I said; and what I've said include no house rules:
What Hit Points Represent (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/injuryanddeath.htm)

Hit points mean two things in the game world: the ability to take physical punishment and keep going, and the ability to turn a serious blow into a less serious one. The ability to turn a serious blow into a less serious one is a combination of skill and luck; the fact that this is a significant portion of your HP is why you don't suffer any effects from taking HP damage until you hit 0 HP.


He only killed six people. We can't assume he got a critical, based on the probabilities of getting a critical. We also can't assume a ship of people preparing for war directly in his direction were unable to defend themselves. Generaly a sneak attack is done from behind.IIRC, sneak attack can be done any time you have concealment.


Look at the passage. He fired, they released a volley of arrows, he fired at least one more arrow they had time to release a volley of arrows and they attacked the people there, and then six were dead. Three turns of action, three attacks by them, six dead by him. I did. It has a very unspecific time line after that first shot. There are no rounds. He shoots and then continues shooting while the boat is being volleyed.


On the raised platform in the bows stood a slim figure whose white skin glistened in dazzling contrast to the glossy ebon hides about it. Belit, without a doubt. Conan drew the shaft to his ear--then some whim or qualm stayed his hand and sent the arrow through the body of a tall plumed spearman beside her.

Hand over hand the pirate galley was overhauling the lighter ship. Arrows fell in a rain about the Argus, and men cried out. All the steersmen were down, pincushioned, and Tito was handling the massive sweep alone, gasping black curses, his braced legs knots of straining thews. Then with a sob he sank down, a long shaft quivering in his sturdy heart. The Argus lost headway and rolled in the swell. The men shouted in confusion, and Conan took command in characteristic fashion.

"Up, lads!" he roared, loosing with a vicious twang of cord. "Grab your steel and give these dogs a few knocks before they cut our throats! Useless to bend your backs any more: they'll board us ere we can row another fifty paces!"

In desperation the sailors abandoned their oars and snatched up their weapons. It was valiant, but useless. They had time for one flight of arrows before the pirate was upon them. With no one at the sweep, the Argus rolled broadside, and the steel-baked prow of the raider crashed into her amidships. Grappling-irons crunched into the side. From the lofty gunwales, the black pirates drove down a volley of shafts that tore through the quilted jackets of the doomed sailormen, then sprang down spears in hand to complete the slaughter. On the deck of the pirate lay half a dozen bodies, an earnest of Conan's archery.So it details one shot from Conan where he shoots the guy next to Belit, and then some indeterminate amount of time where a bunch of action occurs, and then there are 6 guys dead. Declaring an arbitrary number of rounds and shots is absurd; it simply cannot be determined from this passge. It could have been 10 rounds for all we know.


He'd have to be level 16 to shoot them each twice, and a level 16 character would have had nothing to fear from even 80 level 1 enemies. Thinking about it, he attacks twice as fast as them so he must be minimum level 6.Assuming he's taking all full BAB classes, he'd get a 2nd attack at 6, a 3rd at 11 and a 4th at 16; He could also have rapid shot either by taking the feat or 2 levels of ranger.

Nor does he have to hit all of them twice for them to be higher than level 1; he could have done the following:

crit a level 3 raider once and killed him (that first shot)
hit a level 1 raider and killed him
hit a level 2 raider twice and killed him
hit a level 1 raider twice and killed him (he had high hp)
hit a level 2 raider once and killed him (he had low hp)
hit a level 1 raider and killed him

That's 8 shots. It could be done at BAB 11 with rapid shot in two rounds; BAB 11 without rapid shot in three rounds; BAB 6 with rapid shot in three rounds; BAB 6 without rapid shot in four rounds.


Ah, ok. I guess, being in a barbarian rage, he just ignored minor cuts. Didn't take damage into account.Maybe they're minor and maybe they're not; I see no reason to assume one way or the other.


So what, 1+ to damage? Still not enough to kill a level 2 warrior in one shot.It could kill a level 7 warrior in one shot without a crit, though that's far fetched. Not so far fetched to kill a level 2 warrior with slightly below average hp in a single hit, or a level 2 warrior with average hp with 2 hits.

The Glyphstone
2011-01-13, 11:20 AM
IIRC, sneak attack can be done any time you have concealment.

Other way round - you're immune to sneak attack if you have concealment. To benefit from sneak attack, you have to either flank your target or have them be unaware of you. So it's very unlikely Conan has sneak attack damage added here.



It could kill a level 7 warrior in one shot without a crit, though that's far fetched. Not so far fetched to kill a level 2 warrior with slightly below average hp in a single hit, or a level 2 warrior with average hp with 2 hits.

Wouldn't that level 7 warrior need CON 4 to guarantee the minimum HP to be killed by an 8-damage bow shot? A Mighty (+1) Composite Longbow can oneshot level 2 warriors with a bit of luck as you said, but arguing that it can also kill level 7 warriors is stretching beyond far-fetched and into utterly ludicrous.

Ytaker
2011-01-13, 11:49 AM
If he rolled a 20, he still had to have a +18 to track. That sets a fairly straightforward minimum level, doesn't it (15 ranks + skill focus so level 12)?

That would be utterly inconsistant with his earlier failures.

I'd contest the DC18.


the sweet
grass of Rohan had been bruised and blackened as they passed.

It sounds more like


Any surface (fresh snow, thick dust, wet mud) that holds deep, clear impressions of footprints.

Than

Firm Ground


Most normal outdoor surfaces (such as lawns, fields, woods, and the like) or exceptionally soft or dirty indoor surfaces (thick rugs and very dirty or dusty floors). The creature might leave some traces (broken branches or tufts of hair), but it leaves only occasional or partial footprints.

The grass is leaving clear, deep impressions of footprints as it doesn't heal that fast. So, a DC 28 check, or DC8 with -20 to your check. Footprints are easy to see, and are obvious.


What you quoted agrees with what I said; and what I've said include no house rules:The ability to turn a serious blow into a less serious one is a combination of skill and luck; the fact that this is a significant portion of your HP is why you don't suffer any effects from taking HP damage until you hit 0 HP.

From the passage, he turned the blows onto injuries into injuries on his arms and legs. He just, didn't mention it because he was in a barbarian rage.


So it details one shot from Conan where he shoots the guy next to Belit, and then some indeterminate amount of time where a bunch of action occurs, and then there are 6 guys dead. Declaring an arbitrary number of rounds and shots is absurd; it simply cannot be determined from this passge. It could have been 10 rounds for all we know.

They clearly mentioned two archery volleys and one combat. It's mentioned that the pirates were shooting regularly


They had time for one flight of arrows before the pirate was upon them.


Assuming he's taking all full BAB classes, he'd get a 2nd attack at 6, a 3rd at 11 and a 4th at 16; He could also have rapid shot either by taking the feat or 2 levels of ranger.


"Give me a bow," requested Conan. "It's not my idea of a manly weapon, but I learned archery among the Hyrkanians, and it will go hard if I can't feather a man or so on yonder deck."

Doesn't sound like a guy with a feat in rapid shot.


Nor does he have to hit all of them twice for them to be higher than level 1; he could have done the following:

That's 8 shots. It could be done at BAB 11 with rapid shot in two rounds; BAB 11 without rapid shot in three rounds; BAB 6 with rapid shot in three rounds; BAB 6 without rapid shot in four rounds.

It assumes he was lucky enough to get his critical on the one level 3 enemy, and that the level 2 warrior just happened to roll really, really badly. You can just about justify 4 rounds, though. He fired first, and they could have ignored him for one round.


Maybe they're minor and maybe they're not; I see no reason to assume one way or the other.

Minor as in, he could ignore them. He couldn't have ignored a spear in the chest, which would have been a major injury.

Jayabalard
2011-01-13, 11:50 AM
Other way round - you're immune to sneak attack if you have concealment. To benefit from sneak attack, you have to either flank your target or have them be unaware of you. So it's very unlikely Conan has sneak attack damage added here.Hmm; can't you hide if you have concealment and then gain sneak attack while hidden?


Wouldn't that level 7 warrior need CON 4 to guarantee the minimum HP to be killed by an 8-damage bow shot? A Mighty (+1) Composite Longbow can oneshot level 2 warriors with a bit of luck as you said, but arguing that it can also kill level 7 warriors is stretching beyond far-fetched and into utterly ludicrous.They'd just have to have the minimum HP (7) for a warrior of that level, with max damage from bow... and yes, that's out in ludicrous land but IS possible ... much further into ludicrous land would be a level 100 warrior with that flaw (frail or something like that?) that reduces your hp per level by 1 (0 minumum), who only has 1 hp total.

But the bottom line is that that passage doesn't show him 1 shot killing anyone (even the first guy it doesn't actually say that it kills or even drops him). So making assumptions that they are all level 1 because because he obviously one shotted all of them ... it's on the same level sillyness as saying that they were all level 7 warriors.

Personally I think the raiders were probably a smattering of levels, ranging in levels from 1 to 4.

Jayabalard
2011-01-13, 12:13 PM
The grass is leaving clear, deep impressions of footprints as it doesn't heal that fast. So, a DC 28 check, or DC8 with -20 to your check. Footprints are easy to see, and are obvious.Lets not be ludicrous eh ? "the sweet grass of Rohan" = "Most normal outdoor surfaces (such as lawns," ... it's nothing like deep snow or mud. Sure, the grass is blackened, but that doesn't make footprints on the ground magically sink in deeper, or be more noticeable; if anything, it would make finding tracks harder since any impressions in the grass made the hobbit are clearly obliterated by the passage of the Uruks (which is why he loses the trail later, when the DC goes up as a result). Pippin's tracks weren't even in the blackened slot in the grass, they were off to the side.

You could make the argument that the ground was softer than normal, and that it was a DC 13 check with a -20 modifier, but I find that one pretty far fetched, since there's nothing to indicate this sort of terrain in Rohan (it's described in a way that clearly indicates that it's firm ground).


From the passage, he turned the blows onto injuries into injuries on his arms and legs. He just, didn't mention it because he was in a barbarian rage.Possibly; that still makes it HP damage; it doesn't necessarily make any differentiation between a light and a serious wound.


They clearly mentioned two archery volleys and one combat. It's mentioned that the pirates were shooting regularlyLooks like that's one continuous rain of arrows, not clear volleys, with breaks to describe the rest of the action. I see no reason to assume any particular length of time.

This is the full text from when they sight Belit's vessel to when they are alongside, grappled.
It was just at sunrise when the lookout shouted a warning. Around the long point of an island off the starboard bow glided a long lethal shape, a slender serpentine galley, with a raised deck that ran from stem to stern. Forty oars on each side drove her swiftly through the water, and the low rail swarmed with naked blacks that chanted and clashed spears on oval shields. From the masthead floated a long crimson pennon.

"Belit!" yelled Tito, paling. "Yare! Put her about! Into that creek-mouth! If we can beach her before they run us down, we have a chance to escape with our lives!"

So, veering sharply, the Argus ran for the line of surf that boomed along the palm-fringed shore, Tito striding back and forth, exhorting the panting rowers to greater efforts. The master's black beard bristled, his eyes glared.

"Give me a bow," requested Conan. "It's not my idea of a manly weapon, but I learned archery among the Hyrkanians, and it will go hard if I can't feather a man or so on yonder deck."

Standing on the poop, he watched the serpent-like ship skimming lightly over the waters, and landsman though he was, it was evident to him that the Argus would never win that race. Already arrows, arching from the pirate's deck, were falling with a hiss into the sea, not twenty paces astern.

"We'd best stand to it," growled the Cimmerian; "else we'll all die with shafts in our backs, and not a blow dealt."

"Bend to it, dogs!" roared Tito with a passionate gesture of his brawny fist. The bearded rowers grunted, heaved at the oars, while their muscles coiled and knotted, and sweat started out on their hides. The timbers of the stout little galley creaked and groaned as the men fairly ripped her through the water. The wind had fallen; the sail hung limp. Nearer crept the inexorable raiders, and they were still a good mile from the surf when one of the steersmen fell gagging across a sweep, a long arrow through his neck. Tito sprang to take his place, and Conan, bracing his feet wide on the heaving poop-deck, lifted his bow. He could see the details of the pirate plainly now. The rowers were protected by a line of raised mantelets along the sides, but the warriors dancing on the narrow deck were in full view. These were painted and plumed, and mostly naked, brandishing spears and spotted shields.

On the raised platform in the bows stood a slim figure whose white skin glistened in dazzling contrast to the glossy ebon hides about it. Belit, without a doubt. Conan drew the shaft to his ear--then some whim or qualm stayed his hand and sent the arrow through the body of a tall plumed spearman beside her.

Hand over hand the pirate galley was overhauling the lighter ship. Arrows fell in a rain about the Argus, and men cried out. All the steersmen were down, pincushioned, and Tito was handling the massive sweep alone, gasping black curses, his braced legs knots of straining thews. Then with a sob he sank down, a long shaft quivering in his sturdy heart. The Argus lost headway and rolled in the swell. The men shouted in confusion, and Conan took command in characteristic fashion.

"Up, lads!" he roared, loosing with a vicious twang of cord. "Grab your steel and give these dogs a few knocks before they cut our throats! Useless to bend your backs any more: they'll board us ere we can row another fifty paces!"

In desperation the sailors abandoned their oars and snatched up their weapons. It was valiant, but useless. They had time for one flight of arrows before the pirate was upon them. With no one at the sweep, the Argus rolled broadside, and the steel-baked prow of the raider crashed into her amidships.Howard breezes though this section in order to keep the action going, even though it probably took several minutes for the raiders to close on the Argus. It's good pacing, and makes the story more exciting, while giving a more "real time" narration would feel drawn out and slow.


Doesn't sound like a guy with a feat in rapid shot.It's possible that "I learned archery among the Hyrkanians" = "has the rapid shot feat" ...


Hyrkania is a vast land of prairies, forest, and tundra. Hyrkania is best known for its broad, barren steppes where horse-warriors, masters of the powerful double-curved bow, gallop the great treeless tracts of land. Living in tribal clans and led by Khans, these warriors ride on raids of plunder.


Minor as in, he could ignore them. He couldn't have ignored a spear in the chest, which would have been a major injury.so, we can safely say that he was above 0 hp when that happened, but that's about it.

The Glyphstone
2011-01-13, 12:51 PM
Hmm; can't you hide if you have concealment and then gain sneak attack while hidden?


Only total concealment. Ordinary concealment won't suffice.



Also...this is a thread about Conan. While the Aragorn discussion is also equally in-depth, it probably deserves its own thread.

Ytaker
2011-01-13, 03:56 PM
Looks like that's one continuous rain of arrows, not clear volleys, with breaks to describe the rest of the action. I see no reason to assume any particular length of time.

The passage describes it as clear volleys.


Hand over hand the pirate galley was overhauling the lighter ship. Arrows fell in a rain about the Argus, and men cried out. All the steersmen were down, pincushioned, and Tito was handling the massive sweep alone, gasping black curses, his braced legs knots of straining thews. Then with a sob he sank down, a long shaft quivering in his sturdy heart. The Argus lost headway and rolled in the swell. The men shouted in confusion, and Conan took command in characteristic fashion.

A volley hit killing part of the crew and Conan took command. 1 round


"Up, lads!" he roared, loosing with a vicious twang of cord. "Grab your steel and give these dogs a few knocks before they cut our throats! Useless to bend your backs any more: they'll board us ere we can row another fifty paces!"

He gave a speech (speaking is a free action) and fired an arrow.


In desperation the sailors abandoned their oars and snatched up their weapons. It was valiant, but useless. They had time for one flight of arrows before the pirate was upon them. With no one at the sweep, the Argus rolled broadside, and the steel-baked prow of the raider crashed into her amidships.

They picked up their spears and were hit with arrows, or possibly picked up bows (1 round) and fired one round of arrows

I see nothing in there to indicate a long pause were nothing was happening that he skipped over. When the raiders were closing the arrows couldn't reach the other's ships. There could have been a level 2 among them, but he really did not have much time for killing enemies. Level 3-4? He wouldn't have had any chance killing them with a bow, unless he was obsenely lucky.


It's possible that "I learned archery among the Hyrkanians" = "has the rapid shot feat" ...

It's possible but we have no reason to believe so. A feat means you're exceptional at something. All the above likely indicates is that he has Martial Weapons proficiency.


so, we can safely say that he was above 0 hp when that happened, but that's about it.

Yeah, sadly the passage doesn't indicate much.

Jayabalard
2011-01-13, 04:36 PM
The passage describes it as clear volleys.not at all; the rain of arrows is clearly continuous. The only volley described is the last minute volley from the crew of the Argus before the melee started.


Hand over hand the pirate galley was overhauling the lighter ship. Arrows fell in a rain about the Argus, and men cried out. All the steersmen were down, pincushioned, and Tito was handling the massive sweep alone, gasping black curses, his braced legs knots of straining thews. Then with a sob he sank down, a long shaft quivering in his sturdy heart. The Argus lost headway and rolled in the swell. The men shouted in confusion, and Conan took command in characteristic fashion.This passage is not a single round. It may even be more than a couple of minutes, compressed by the author to keep the pacing of scene fast.

One Clue: "Hand over hand the pirate galley was overhauling the lighter ship." ... Hand over hand would indicate a slow pace. This sentence is to set the reader up so that they feel the slow but inevitable defeat in the Argus' race for the surf. Arrows falling in a rain the whole time.

There's a break in time between "men cried out." and "All the steersmen were down" where the rain of arrows pick off each of steersman.

Tito takes over the sweep for a bit, and after a time he too is taken down by the rain of arrows.

The beginning of the paragraph the are at pretty much maximum bow range. At the end of the passage, the pirate vessel is on the verge of boarding them. My guess is that this passage indicates somewhere between a minute and a minute and a half of time. It could be longer but I really doubt it's much shorter.


It's possible but we have no reason to believe so. A feat means you're exceptional at something. All the above likely indicates is that he has Martial Weapons proficiency.Feats generally just mean training of some sort, not that you're especially gifted. Studying archery under people who are rather known for archery (which I believe the Hyrkanians are, though less so than for horses) would generally be sufficient to be represented by a feat.

Blas_de_Lezo
2011-01-13, 06:16 PM
Some people here still confuse the R. E. Howard's Conan with the one from the movie.

I suppose the question is about the original Conan, so I must add that he MUST have take at least 1 level in barbarian, in order to acces to the Crimson Fury (Rage) from the books. I would say he's a Barbarian 1/Rogue 1/Warblade 4. (following those essays about fantasy characters not being higher level than level 5 or 6, let's say 6).

As for feats: Lightning Reflexes (moves like a panther, incrdible reflexes), ¿Weapon focus/Weapon Spec?, Stealthy. should be mandatory.

Skills: At least Climb, Athletism, Tumble, Intimidate, Hide/Move Silently, Listen/Spot, Sense Motive are maxed and mandatory too.

As for the stats:
Young conan is presented as daring and impetous. Cunning, but not a genious. His men usually were loyal to him. I would say average wis, good Int & Cha. When older, his stats increase as king reflect his experience.
As for the physical stats, we know he's one of the strongest warriors of his time, but Conan fights warriors stronger and taller than him, so he's not 18 Str since the very beggining. Howard constantly describes his incredible grace, agility and swiftness, even more than his strenght. Also, his deeds of fortitude and resistance saves him many times. So we could say here that he's sucha a great warrior not only for being high level (6th, for his world) but also for his incredible combined physcial power (Str, Dex, Con).

I would bet for:

Str 17
Dex 16
Con 14
Int 13
Wis 10
Cha 12