Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XVII

[vikingofdoom]

No, that wording just applies to Brew Potion, Craft Wand, and Scribe Scroll. The rest just need prerequisites met to make.

[gbprime]

In the judging of Arleigh Skye, OMG mentions that it's hard for an outsider to be raised to qualify for that last level. Revive Outsider from the SpC makes this no more of an issue than for a non-Outstder.

Actually, by SRD, Outsiders with the (Native) subtype can be raised or resurrected as normal.

[T.G. Oskar]

@Snow
If the build was made to be a decent scout (if not excellent), I might had noticed. I took a good look at the build, and nothing told me you were a good scout. For starters...

1) A good scout has good Listen and Spot checks, and probably Track and Survival OR Search. Your base Listen and Spot checks are effectively the same as those of someone who took them as cross-class skills all the time, plus one rank. That leaves a low base score on both of them, with a 0 Wisdom modifier to add to the ranks (unless you used Owl's Wisdom, but that doesn't seem to be the case).

2) A good scout might have some ways to improve those gained abilities. For starters, some of the builds went and improved the scent ability to make it a good proximity sense (as well as a scouting sense, nearly doubling that sensor's range); others just maxed Spot and Listen to a ridiculous degree. Thing is, they at least showed they cared for the scouting abilities, even if they didn't have other nice moves such as Invisibility. Sense Link seems somewhat like a relay, and Heightened Senses improves that, but I looked for things that a scout would take besides what the PrC has already. The only thing I might have seen was Alertness (from a familiar), and I don't recall you mentioning you had one. Quick Reconnoiter would have been just as nice; Blind-Fight would have been nice because you'd had gained the poor man's blindsight (knowing where the individual was and then having less chances to fail). Note: improving the gained scouting abilities doesn't mean entirely replacing them, which leads to...

3) A good scout uses the best scouting abilities in its disposal. See: you can't deny someone like, say, Arleigh isn't a good scout. Having Track, a refined sense of smell, impressive Spot and Listen abilities, plus 1st level Ranger spellcasting and See Invisibility to support that means that the character thought of being a scout, and it shows on its work. Slide, on the other hand, wasn't meant to be used as a scout but used the sense abilities in an entirely different way: using them while being an object, where the senses become extremely limited, so it would be helpful to the character and to any hapless fool that drew near; Slide wasn't a scout and doesn't seem to enjoy being one, but his use of senses was definitely surprising. Those are two sides of the same coin (or in this case, PrC); either you use those new senses to become a superb scout, or you use them as a complement for senses you don't have. In your case, your scouting abilities are limited to what few things you gain from your race and skills, plus what pretty much every other Wizard has access to. Loremaster isn't a clear and defined scouting class (Horizon Walker, on the other hand...), and you don't use the secrets to take advantage of that (for example, using a secret to gain more ranks in Spot, Listen or Search, then using the other for, say, Quick Reconnoiter), which would have supported the idea of being a decent scout.

5) Learn where each form of scouting is more worthwhile based on your class. For example: Spot-and-Listen scouting is best left for early levels, where you have no ranks in Spot OR Listen aside from the bonus you get from being an elf. Once a Wizard gains See Invisibility, scouting invisible creatures makes the greatest benefit of insanely high Spot (looking at invisible creatures and their locations) slightly redundant. Once you get Arcane Sight, you have a sense where you can detect anything under a magical effect or wielding magic items without the need for concentration (hence, you could improve that, but you start boosting Spot and Listen just around the point you enter Loremaster, meaning it's kinda late). Once you get Scrying, you can pretty much scout the entire area without leaving the safety of your sanctum. Those aren't things you got from Ardent Dilettante more than you got them from Wizard spellcasting: when you get Sense Link (a handy "walkie-talkie" for scouts), you already had Clairvoyance on your list several levels ago; when you gained sense, you already had senses that defeated the range of smell eons ago; when you gain Blindsense, you could have just used Limited Wish, pay the hard-earned XP, and duplicate the Blindsight spell from a Cleric or Druid to gain a far better ability with a larger range. Those are more "advanced" tricks for Wizards, but entirely doable, and what makes choosing Ardent Dilettante feel more like "fulfilling the competition's requirement rather than doing something greater with it".

Trust me, had I found (aside from a mention on the tactics area) some signs that your build was a scout, I would have considered them. What I observed on first instance was a Wizard, not a scout; that doesn't mean a Wizard can't be a good scout (quite the contrary; their spells make a scout cringe) but that because of being a Wizard, your scouting abilities are strikingly different from the norm. You don't send yourself scouting; you send your familiar, well hidden behind Invisibility and Blink spells, using your link to relay information; or, you could just scry and know everything from the safety of your sanctum, forcing your enemies to build protections against your spells; or just call or summon a better scryer. Wizard spells, which you have in spades, make your secondary focus redundant, the life expectancy of your secondary talent expiring just at the moment you start to reinforce it. That's why I can't see the build as a scouter, because you already do it better without having to gain redundant abilities and bonuses to skill points (or gaining bonuses to abilities which are too weak to make a difference, or gaining bonuses to abilities which are far too easily fooled by the time they're halfway beyond decent), just by using your spells. Hence, when I ruminated through your build, the most important things I saw were "more HP, improved spellcasting, Lore, gaining a spell that the character wouldn't otherwise have access"; the rest had good reasons why they could be ignored.

Now, I could have given you a bit more for "clever use of 'all skills as class skills' class feature", but the only thing in which you exploit it is in Tumble, and perhaps far too late to make it useful. Also: rat gives you a bonus on Fortitude, which while excellent for your saves is actually bad for the idea of making a good scout, when a bat or a hawk would have served as great aerial scouts and also boosted your ability (and made it even greater with Natural Link). So yeah, the scale's inclined to "trying to cover my weaknesses" rather than "be a good scout"; you did a nice job trying to cover your weaknesses with Favored Soul, bonuses to Fortitude, godo Reflex saving throws and decent Con, as well as scent and blindsense for when things were too close, but it didn't make a good scout or something that really could have made Ardent Dilettante a crucial choice over, say, more levels of Wizard or Loremaster.

[monkeysammich]

I just wanted to say thank you to all the judges. I have learned a lot this first time around and look forward to using the tips and critique next time.

[Amechra]

I learned a lot too, even though I was semi-joking around while making my entry.

Eh, I'll take the next one seriously, though.

But still, mad props to you all.

[Urpriest]

T.G. Oskar, it's interesting that you mention how tricky it is to optimize Enthrall. Probably the only ability of Ardent Dilettante that the hippy Apostle of Peace I considered submitting optimized was Enthrall, using Vow of Nonviolence and Ability Focus to up the DC and Diplomancy to make it an SoL.

[T.G. Oskar]

T.G. Oskar, it's interesting that you mention how tricky it is to optimize Enthrall. Probably the only ability of Ardent Dilettante that the hippy Apostle of Peace I considered submitting optimized was Enthrall, using Vow of Nonviolence and Ability Focus to up the DC and Diplomancy to make it an SoL.

Well, considering that you made use of two options that don't depend on actually being on Apostle of Peace, you could have added those to any build that had some serious focus on Enchantment and Divination. But it's mostly how you'd use an ability that certainly comes out of the blue regarding the PrC (Joie de Vivre relates to that "feelgood" vibe of the Society; scent and blindsense are meant to be enhanced senses along with Heightened Senses, Lore...well, you know more about how to please people and where to find the next sensation). Though, Enthrall is mostly an out-of-combat ability, what with all the requirements, and what it mostly does is halt their actions (as per the Pied Piper).

Liked the idea of Enthrall + Diplomancy. Mix Bard in that (Enthrall -> Fascinate -> Diplomacy check) and you got one serious way to lower the required Diplomacy check (heck, do it as Exemplar and you can do it with Perform...) But yeah, it's tricky because it's pretty much an orphan feature, not supported by the class itself and requiring such devotion that it makes other class features falter in comparison.

[true_shinken]

One last dispute before the reveal.


While watching the scores, I couldn't help but notice that viking thought D32 didn't qualify for Dragon Devotee. I wonder why, because he does qualify:

First, the race requires him to be a non-dragon (which he is, being a construct with the living construct subtype), plus he doesn't have the draconic template. What's more, the draconic template itself, while inherited (Dragon Devotee clearly ignores this statement), requires the creature only to be living AND corporeal. In that case, Warforged fits both because it's a living construct (having both traits of living, corporeal creatures and constructs) and has a body (with composite plating and so forth). This might be the biggest point of contention, but again, the point is addressed since the Prestige Class has no restrictions in that matter. Furthermore, there's no errata on Races of the Dragon that states the opposite.

As for the rest: the BAB requirement is fulfilled by the 5 levels within Warblade and Fighter, the Knowledge (arcana) requirement is fulfilled from level 1 (having expended 4 points as a cross-class ability) and the Speak Language requirement is fulfilled through having 1 "rank" in the class; while it's not specified that the character took it on Draconic, by virtue of having 1 wild card language slot you might figure that it qualifies for such.

[vikingofdoom]

With regards to the challenge, I may have had a different dragon based PrC in mind with my judging, but I will need to know what book Dragon Devotee is in to figure out whether or not I am correct in my assessment.

[true_shinken]

With regards to the challenge, I may have had a different dragon based PrC in mind with my judging, but I will need to know what book Dragon Devotee is in to figure out whether or not I am correct in my assessment.

Races of the Dragon

[vikingofdoom]

Updated my judging to reflect that DD is now legal, but still deducted points for not having ranks in a Con-based skill. Mark for D32 is now 13 points from me.

[ex cathedra]

With regards to the challenge, I may have had a different dragon based PrC in mind with my judging, but I will need to know what book Dragon Devotee is in to figure out whether or not I am correct in my assessment.

Wait, you judged an entry without looking at the relevant class? You tried to recall the class from memory rather than actually opening the book? That's...

That certainly doesn't portray your ability to judge in a positive light, to say the least.

[true_shinken]

That certainly doesn't portray your ability to judge in a positive light, to say the least.
Aethernox, refrain from questioning a judges' judgement like this. Judging takes time, requires effort and the judges are making this for our enjoyment. Everyone commits mistakes every now and then. If you disagree about something a judge did, PM me and I'll tell the judge.

[ex cathedra]

I didn't mean to question his judgment, per se, but rather the effort and research he put into judging Designate, at the very least. I'm not saying that he's necessarily a poor judge of characters, but it is worrisome that he didn't know which book one of the entries used, and it would have been unfair to Designate if the mistake wasn't caught.

[OMG PONIES]

I didn't mean to question his judgment, per se, but rather the effort and research he put into judging Designate, at the very least. I'm not saying that he's necessarily a poor judge of characters, but it is worrisome that he didn't know which book one of the entries used, and it would have been unfair to Designate if the mistake wasn't caught.

He may have been mistaking Dragon Devotee with Dragon Disciple--a mistake I almost made myself, and a class for which D32 did not qualify. The point is, the mistake was caught, disputed and corrected. That's why we have the process that we do. Let's not make this into something ugly by questioning any judge's effort.

Speaking of the process that we have, here are my responses to the disputes:


In the judging of Arleigh Skye, OMG mentions that it's hard for an outsider to be raised to qualify for that last level. Revive Outsider from the SpC makes this no more of an issue than for a non-Outstder.

Ah, a spell of which I was unaware. My apologies. Unfortunately, that was just a judge's note, and no deduction had been taken from your or any other outsider in this round. Also, gbprime, thanks for your note on native outsiders...I always forget.


Dear Mr. PONIES,

While your analysis is mostly fair, I do feel the need to point out a few things. First, Aesc only uses Disciple of Thrym spells for Sanctified/Corrupt spells for exactly the reasons you mention. Second, while you're right about my ranks in Jump mysteriously disappearing between my spreadsheet and the final post (mea culpa . . . I even took Sudden Leap! I swear I had them and I don't know where they went, but since they weren't in the final build, I will make no effort to protest your ruling), Aesc is nonetheless proficient with the hand crossbow (an exotic weapon) from his rogue days. I don't know if this will sway your opinion one way or the other, but it needed to be said.


First of all, this is the first and awesomest time I've ever been addressed as Mr. Ponies. I love it. I did forget that the hand crossbow was exotic until seeing it in another build--my mistake for not deleting that part. Still, the missing Jump ranks are what really did you in, and my score stands.


(1) This may be splitting hairs, but a good argument can be made that the prostitution in question is not "exploitative or coercive." Without exploitation or coerciveness, there is no reason for an Exalted character to object to them. (2) Succubi are "Always Chaotic Evil," but the Succubus Paladin is the archetype of the Redeemed Evil. "Always" does not seem to mean "always."

Perhaps it was just me, but I have always read UA as allowing alternate classes. Although I am not able to look now, but I am pretty sure alternate classes (like Paladin of Freedom) have been used before. This would affect Gabriella, Annette, and D32


In response to your first point, a good argument can be made for your case. However, in your own backstory you mentioned that some customers got violent, making me think it was still "exploitative and coercive," even if you dealt with them. Even with a lenient DM, there are other acts (lying and pretending to be a prostitute, KILLING people and raising them as your DOMINATED spawn) that are in violation of your code. Nonetheless, you weren't deducted for your code, so no change to scoring.

In response to your second point, I'm slightly confused--you mention succubi, but I thought Annette was a wraith spawn. Straight from Emancipated Spawn, it mentions that you can revert to your alignment after your creator is slain, but while a dominated spawn, you're evil. No paladin powers, no exalted feats, no ifs ands or buts.

In response to your final point, the Iron Chef competition does allow variant classes from UA. However, individual judges have different feelings about them. For my judging, I realize that some DMs ban anything from Unearthed Arcana. In my criteria, I mention that I won't give a 4 or higher for elegance to anything that relies on a UA variant, but I won't deduct any points if it's simply mentioned in a Notes or Adaptations section of your entry. I noted both Gabriella and D32's entries for their use of UA variants as well, FWIW.


If the spell retrieval method is 'a form of preparation', then isn't a Sorcerer's 'a form of preparation' as well? Both can recast spells based on spells known. That would seem to eliminate all casters from using a pair of feats that add to spells known.
As noted, one strong draw for those feat choices was the thematic fit for both Sha'ir and Blood Magus.


Ah, yes. It pained me to put this in my judging, and I had a feeling that it would be disputed. The main problem I have with considering sha'irs as spontaneous casters is that in Dragon Compendium itself, the parallel to a wizard is drawn. I'm at work so I don't have the Dragon Compendium reference at hand, but in the section discussing spell retrieval it says something along the lines of: "once retrieved, spells stay in your memory much like the spells in a wizard's spellbook," or something to that effect. Because of that, I had to evaluate the spell retrieval method against true spontaneous casters, and it seems to me that it's not truly spontaneous. The spontaneous casters (sorcerers, et al) say "He can cast any spell he knows without preparing it ahead of time..." but the sha'ir must jump through a few hoops just to grab their spells for the day. My judging stands.

[true_shinken]

With that, I believe our dispute round is concluded. I believe I may make the reveal now, yes? (I'm waiting a second for someone else to realize I'm missing something)

[vikingofdoom]

I did indeed mistake Dragon Devotee for Dragon Disciple, an event primarily caused by my not having RotD to check through. My judging is complete, and if no one raises any more concerns, I look forward to the reveal.

[true_shinken]

Time for the great reveal. vikingofdoom really changed D32's position with that dispute!

In 1st place, we have gbprime's Arleigh Skye! Looks like Akal Saris and OMGPonies are looking at some good competition for 'master of Iron Chef'!
In 2nd place, we have Xodion's Snow.
In 3rd place, we have kestrel404's Gabriella.
In 4th place, we have Amphetryon's V'grax.
In 5th place, we have monkeysammich's Designate 32-20-53-65-6e-73-65-73.
In 6th place, we have Zaq's Aesh Duan Dee. He also gets our honorable mention award.
In 7th place, we have The Gilded Duke's "Hazy" Vernal Equinox.
In 8th place, we have Amechra's Anette the Impure.
And in 9th place, we have Rancor's The Slide.
I really enjoyed all the builds. "Hazy" had the best presentation, IMHO.
Contratulations to all contestants! Competition was really high. Thanks to all judges, contestants and guests. Stay tuned for Iron Chef XVIII.

As I mentioned before, trophies will be late for this one. Sorry.

[Xodion]

Congratulations to all the other contestants, especially gbprime, a well-deserved winner :smallsmile:. Thanks to all the judges as well, for the effort they put in.

Having had time to reflect, I regret my dispute about scouting and the like, and Oksar's assesment was very accurate. I think I was just a bit desperate to snatch a late victory :smalltongue: but I guess 2nd is pretty good for a first effort! :smallbiggrin:

[monkeysammich]

Thank you to everyone... I really enjoyed making D32 and got so carried away with the IDEA of it... that it turned out really sloppy. I now have a template I'll be using for further entries that will be much more polished... include tactics, questionable decisions... and most importantly... sources ;)

I did have a lot of fun trying to make a Melee build out of a severly non-melee class. I started with Cloistered Cleric/Loremaster/AD... then went Rogue/Trapsmith/Temple Raider/AD ... The first didn't flow as well and the second I couldnt make "feel" right. I probably should've gone with the rogue :)

For the Dragon Devotee thing... It's a pretty rare class and I dont mind that the mistake was made... I pointed it out to the Chairman and it was resolved. No harm, no foul...

Thanks again to all the judges, and I look forward to trying to "wow" you all with my next entry.

[true_shinken]

My favourite builds were "Hazy" for the presentation, D32 because it's a gish build and I love gishes and V'grax because it's simple, effective and very well presented as well.

[kestrel404]

Congrats to both Gbprime and Xodion, you both deserved to win. I am also quite grateful to the judges who were more forgiving than I deserved on the Devil-touched/Exalted feats mixup. My only knowledge of Devil-touched feats (and the Hellbred race) comes from online sources and I did not have the original material to reference.

The entire idea behind the build was to 'ride the bleeding edge between sinner and saint', and hellbred really fit into that. With the secondary aspect of 'lets see how many feats I can add to this build', both the Body aspect Hellbred and the bonus feats from VoP seemed like they would mesh really well - and except for an explicit gotcha in the original text, they do.

TGOscar - to answer your question, the reason I went with the Emissary of Barachiel PrC over something more sensible (like Divine Bard, which I did strongly consider) was because I was already going for a holy/infernal duality build so the entry requirements were really easy to meet. Also, they had Cha-based divine spellcasting, which is pretty rare (the only other PrC I found was the one that only gets spells from a single cleric domain).

[gbprime]

Thanks all, I'm honored. I still really like the fact that all the judges are coming from different points of view and that there is vastly different opinion over the builds themselves. That's healthy for a good competition!

I was most impressed with v'grax this time around. Sha'ir may look like an easy qualification for dual casting, but it's a rough class to actually play, given how they have to recharge their knowledge of a spell after each casting of it. And hooking it up with Blood Magus since the special ingredient already has a death requirement... awesome.

See you guys in #18. :smallcool:

[Amphetryon]

I was most impressed with v'grax this time around. Sha'ir may look like an easy qualification for dual casting, but it's a rough class to actually play, given how they have to recharge their knowledge of a spell after each casting of it. And hooking it up with Blood Magus since the special ingredient already has a death requirement... awesome.

See you guys in #18. :smallcool:
Thanks. Someone over at BG actually started cribbing together a Sha'ir Handbook as I was working on this one, though I found that out after I'd decided on my basic schema. The notes from that handbook are one reason the story emphasized sending the gen to get divine spells during the party's rest period, with arcane spells more likely to be accessed on the fly.

[kestrel404]

Oh yes, and I just have to say - I've always been slightly afraid that someone would duplicate (or come close to duplicating) my build. But I have never had someone come up with a nearly identical CONCEPT before. I mean, yes, given the source material, the concept of a call girl was almost inevitable. But I figured that Vow of Poverty would SET ME APART from any others who did that!

Ardent Dilettante - now officially the class of choice for charitable hookers.

[T.G. Oskar]

He may have been mistaking Dragon Devotee with Dragon Disciple--a mistake I almost made myself, and a class for which D32 did not qualify. The point is, the mistake was caught, disputed and corrected.


For the Dragon Devotee thing... It's a pretty rare class and I dont mind that the mistake was made... I pointed it out to the Chairman and it was resolved. No harm, no foul...

When I judged, I had to make that statement: there are lots of dragon-related classes and dragon-related books (about 20 or so PrCs and 3 books), so it's natural that someone gets confused. I mentioned that I started looking at Dragon Magic because some of the bizarre PrCs are located there (Wyrm Wizard and Pact-Bound Adept, for example), and Dragon Devotee was rare given that it was one of the few classes which gives specific spellcasting progression (such as Stalker of Kharash which gives Ranger spellcasting, Lyric Thaumaturge which gives Bard spellcasting or Nosomatic Chirurgeon which gives Adept spellcasting). The lack of sources is a good example of why everybody should have them at the very end of their builds, because that aids the judge immensely on terms of where to look. That's doubly crucial for, say, feats like Sacred Healing which has two versions, or Two-Weapon Rend which was downgraded from Epic, and which may cause conflicts.



In response to your first point, a good argument can be made for your case. However, in your own backstory you mentioned that some customers got violent, making me think it was still "exploitative and coercive," even if you dealt with them. Even with a lenient DM, there are other acts (lying and pretending to be a prostitute, KILLING people and raising them as your DOMINATED spawn) that are in violation of your code. Nonetheless, you weren't deducted for your code, so no change to scoring.

In response to your second point, I'm slightly confused--you mention succubi, but I thought Annette was a wraith spawn. Straight from Emancipated Spawn, it mentions that you can revert to your alignment after your creator is slain, but while a dominated spawn, you're evil. No paladin powers, no exalted feats, no ifs ands or buts.

I have to agree with this. Hence, why I mentioned "why there's no Atonement"?

I find a good way to make the story interesting (it was really fun, what with having a very conservative priest dealing with a different kind of holy character) was to make it a request. Jozan gets in, she tells her story, and instead of saying "well, spread it around", she could have said something really simple: "I need to atone for my former sins; I wish to return to my old life, but I want to use my new power for the benefit of everyone." That kind of thought is both fitting to the story (and gives a reason why to keep Exalted feats and Paladin of Freedom levels), but also a response I would expect from a chaotic good character, whom doesn't play by the rules (conversely, a lawful good character would ask to be "sent away", as in destroyed so that his or her soul reached the Upper Planes, but not before atoning for whichever sins committed during his/her time as a spawn.) It also gives an idea that the character is slowly, not immediately, returning to what she once was, and still has some issues as to how to deal with her newfound powers.

Remember that having an awesome trick doesn't invalidate you from having an awesome story as well. Good writing makes or breaks a build.


Having had time to reflect, I regret my dispute about scouting and the like, and Oksar's assesment was very accurate. I think I was just a bit desperate to snatch a late victory :smalltongue: but I guess 2nd is pretty good for a first effort! :smallbiggrin:

Remember I'm not the only judge, but I'm the one that takes a lot of time explaining every reason I find (and I find that I wasn't THAT exhaustive on this one, or I would have done a veritable dissection on every single build which would have taken a month or so)

But that's good. Trying to please the judges isn't an easy task, because each judge has a different way of thinking and a different way of judging. I gave huge scores to stuff other people didn't like, because I observe those in a different way. Example of that are the Power scores: I was surprised to see how many 3 or 4 were on the Wizard builds, given that just having 9th level spells merits you for an immense power potential just by that. However, that shows just how different judgings are, because while most go for "start with one score, go up or down based on good or bad stuff", I do it differently. Hence, while they had some issues I didn't like on the use of the secret ingredient and on originality, I did gave mad props on Power and Elegance because of their sheer power and simplicity, IMO.


Thank you to everyone... I really enjoyed making D32 and got so carried away with the IDEA of it... that it turned out really sloppy. I now have a template I'll be using for further entries that will be much more polished... include tactics, questionable decisions... and most importantly... sources ;)

First time is usually a school: you learn a lot. Some of the tricks are constantly mentioned in the forums: leapfrogging for better use of Ardent or ToB classes, which feats should go first, synergy between things and so on. While you might have thought that the build was sloppy, there were things that, once improved, could have given a great boost to your build; now, for both further competitions and further chances as a player, you'll use those tools wisely (so, if you really want to go with a roleplayer group and want a player with heavy fluff, you can create Designate and do the necessary tweaks, enter AD and surprise them when you suddenly blurt "don't you catch the smell of the ?", with the story-driven guys suddenly asking "how can you smell!?")


I did have a lot of fun trying to make a Melee build out of a severly non-melee class. I started with Cloistered Cleric/Loremaster/AD... then went Rogue/Trapsmith/Temple Raider/AD ... The first didn't flow as well and the second I couldnt make "feel" right. I probably should've gone with the rogue :)

It happens with everyone. I would have liked to see the Rogue build, since the addition of new senses would have reinforced your character, plus it would have combined right (Rogue disarms traps, Trapsmith knows how to use them; Temple Raider has Olidammara as a deity which wouldn't have minded the entry to the Society of Sensation as he's...kinda hedonistic). However, that doesn't mean the entry was so bad (it just needs some polish), and it was very original.


Congrats to both Gbprime and Xodion, you both deserved to win. I am also quite grateful to the judges who were more forgiving than I deserved on the Devil-touched/Exalted feats mixup. My only knowledge of Devil-touched feats (and the Hellbred race) comes from online sources and I did not have the original material to reference.

The entire idea behind the build was to 'ride the bleeding edge between sinner and saint', and hellbred really fit into that. With the secondary aspect of 'lets see how many feats I can add to this build', both the Body aspect Hellbred and the bonus feats from VoP seemed like they would mesh really well - and except for an explicit gotcha in the original text, they do.

Well, aside from the saint, the fact that Hellbred wade that path already makes the prohibition of Exalted feats a bad idea in terms of design, because they could have allowed it (making it the only explicit prohibition). A Chaotic Good hellbred could certainly find using the weapons of his enemies as a proper way to fight evil; the problem is that Exalted is a different form of good (just like Vile is a different form of evil). I find a lot of parallels between a hellbred that suddenly develops the ability to gain Exalted feats (even while having devil-touched feats) and reaches Sainthood, with a vampire (from [I]Vampire: the Masquerade) reaching Golconda; it isn't a way to get more power, but the very foundation of the character's personal quest. Reaching sainthood means the hellbred achieved his purpose, redeemed himself, and the act of good was so extraordinary it actually allowed him to reach a new state of goodness, one that will be hard to fall from because the hellbred knows exactly what is to be condemned, and strives for anyone to reach that state (though that's not exactly what happens with vampires who reach Golconda, in any case; still, it's pretty similar). It's the rules of the Book of Exalted Deeds which doesn't really help, because while saint is a template heavily invested with fluff, the book itself is quite restrictive and suggests a very different form of playing good than the accustomed, where redemption is possible but leaves you at the lower echelon of good compared to those who somehow never sinned which are unprepared to face evil and its temptations.

But I stop here, since this would go into a discourse on BoED and that's not the intention.


TGOscar - to answer your question, the reason I went with the Emissary of Barachiel PrC over something more sensible (like Divine Bard, which I did strongly consider) was because I was already going for a holy/infernal duality build so the entry requirements were really easy to meet. Also, they had Cha-based divine spellcasting, which is pretty rare (the only other PrC I found was the one that only gets spells from a single cleric domain).

Recall that just because the PrC is on the Book of Exalted Deeds doesn't make the other entries "less holy" in comparison. A Favored Soul entry, while used by others, was fine enough: being a Favored Soul of Lastai meant you had her favor, and thus the idea of Lastai trying to call you back even as a wraith would have more weight in the story. Divine Crusader was also a nice idea, since you would have gained domain powers from the PrC, raising your power a little bit. It's the fluff of Emissary of Barachiel which kinda threw me off, since the fluff is entirely about conversion and atonement, something that you desperately needed, and it was a dip on the class, not a full-fledged entry (which would have allowed the abilities of Conversion as well). Furthermore, it frees you from some feats (allowing you to take other Exalted feats, say, Hands of a Healer or Sanctify Martial Strike) and doesn't force a further affiliation with a lawful creature, so there's less need to force the fluff to accommodate to the build.

[Tam_OConnor]

Thank you, everyone for your patience on this one. Can't wait for the next one!

[Zaq]

I got Honorable Mention? Awesome! I knew that there was no way that Aesc could win, but once I had the idea in my head, I felt that it was so ballsy that I just had to see how many judges would love it and how many would hate it.

@vikingofdoom:


I deducted 0.5 marks for using a variant of the Pokemon theme in your backstory, and another 0.5 marks for using such an obvious pun in your name.

Which pun? There were at least two and a half plays on words there. Do you know what an aesc (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aesc) is? It's a letter, or more accurately a ligature: a combination of two symbols used to make a new one. Fitting for an Illumian, no? That's the half right there. The first pun comes when you consider the pronunciation of "aesc." It's not "ask" or "aysk," you know. It's pronounced "ash." When you consider the song I added (http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Ash_Ketchum) . . . yeah. The second pun is the initials, but see below.

@Tam OConnor: I can genuinely say that I was shocked to see a 4 in Power, since I considered that to be my weak point. Thank you, though.

@OMGPONIES: I knew there'd be at least one hater. :smallwink: Is that a record for new low score?

@ T. G. Oskar: Thank you for going so far in-depth. Your analysis made the whole thing worthwhile. I think that you caught pretty much every intent I had when making Aesc, and it shows. I didn't make Aesc so I could see scores; I made Aesc so I could see analysis. Your analysis, more than any other, was extremely gratifying.


As for the song…lyrics made by you, or they’re part of a song? Because it seems kinda like…I dunno, new wave (Erasure, Duran Duran?)

Nothing so highbrow. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pKofewfeSoY) (Yes, Duran Duran is highbrow in comparison.) Truth be told, the phrase "gotta see it all!" is what inspired me to enter the contest in the first place. I knew that I had to put that in here somehow, so I needed a build, so . . . the rest is history.

Oh, and I have ADD, so I'm well aware that Aesc doesn't. That was almost an in-joke for myself. If anything, it stands for "Arcane and Divine Devotion" or "Ardent Dilettante Dude."

[vikingofdoom]

The pun I caught was the in the initials. Before I saw that, I had no clue what an aesc was. Good puns all round though. I like it.

[Clepto]

Congrats to everyone who won. I'll admit, I'm a little disappointed that I didn't get to participate this time, but I'm definitely looking forward to competing in the next one.

And judges, bang-up job. This one looked REALLY hard to judge, and I don't envy you the work that you volunteered for in order to do it. But you guys did an excellent job.

[The Gilded Duke]

Ouch, really should have read that Errata, oh well, can't win all of them. I think with the fluff I emphasized the whole apprentice mentor feats and their relationship with the class too much, and the wizard archmage too little, which left a sour and disjointed taste at times. Ah well, was fun to do. My favorites were the various vow of poverty prostitutes, and V'grax.

Also wasn't worth disputing, but Apprentice morphs into Mentor at level.. 6 I think, and at that point you get your own apprentice who starts out at like level one, not central to the build at all.

I am interested to see what is next.

[Tam_OConnor]

Zaq: unlike some of the other judges, I was judging power on a relative scale. Basically, I use the same idea as SonofZeal's prestige class tier: 'how much does this build improve the basic concept?' Hence the 4.

[Amechra]

I apologize for showcasing a TO build. And I was surprised by the repetition of my theme too! You probably thought of it first, though.

[T.G. Oskar]

I apologize for showcasing a TO build. And I was surprised by the repetition of my theme too! You probably thought of it first, though.

There's no need to apologize for showcasing a TO build, because the optimization challenge provides for that in a way (basically the quote about cheeses :P). However, when showcasing a TO build, or even a PO build, one must be careful not to skip any steps that could lead to trouble. The trouble laid on using Wraith, whose conversion was done as a template and not as a monster class, but using the traits of the monster and not the template for it. As I mentioned, using the Shadow monster class would have worked nicely, because it would have allowed you to get the HD, then reclaim your abilities through Emancipated Spawn; through actual optimization, measuring the maximum amount of levels you could take before turning into a Shadow, using the Shadow monster class progression, then get Emancipated Shadow ASAP, so that the amount of XP required for that is lower than 20th level, meaning you become an Epic character pre-level 21st, sort of what Dragonwrought Kobolds get if they reach Venerable age (based on the reading). While it's a nice trick to get an artificial boost in power, the fact that it had its flaws and was thus easy to debunk was the real problem. However, one thing that's valuable with Emancipated Spawn is that it can be done with other spawn-based classes (Shadows and Wraiths aren't the only spawns, you know...) and that it doesn't require any other levels aside from the three you need for the class, so it can be done with everything: from the out-of-tier Truenamer to the Big Five.

Also, while you showcased a TO theme, most went with PO themes (the two Wizards, for example), which I felt was affecting the purpose of the theme because they were pre-optimized. Most of the judges went with how the PrC improved the build; I limited that to UoSI, watching before if the build was powerful enough or not (with and without the addition of the PrC), and analyzed exactly HOW the build and the PrC had an optimist synergy (that is, whether what you gained from the build improved your character and what you already had from the character reinforced some of the base qualities of the PrC, hence providing a slight multiplicative effect to your power). You evidently went with the fondue, not with the slices of cheese; the problem was checking if the fondue was well done.