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Yorae
2011-01-07, 01:05 AM
So, my DM is planning our upcoming campaign and I thought I'd go ahead and plan out my character and decided upon an arcane gish, drawing principally from Jade Phoenix Mage (Bo9S). Drawing inspiration from an old RP character, I got some flavor I liked and went to work at the character sheet...

I was hoping for some critique/advice on my build.

This is what I've got:

Race: Human (Considered something else, like Illumian, but flavor-wise this makes the most sense. Plus, I like the extra feat.)

Alignment: Chaotic Good

Starting Stats (Note that our DM houseruled that we'd be using a non-standard method of determining starting stats, so we all have higher-than-normal base attributes. She assured us that we'd "need it.")
Strength: 19
Dexterity: 20
Constitution: 16
Intellect: 20
Wisdom: 14
Charisma: 10

My character plan:

http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/5553/characterplan.jpg


I'm currently dropping Necromancy and Enchantment. I could have gone focused specialist, dropping evocation, but I'd like to be able to use the +3 CL on fire spells from Firebird stance as well as a few spells that I really like from that school (e.g., Contingency, Spell Sequencer, ...) and I figure I'll never run out of stuff to do, since I have replenishable maneuvers.

Only other houserule I can think of is that I can cast Mage Armor as an Abjuration spell (why isn't it abjuration, anyway?), since that seems to be RAI, in regards to Abjurant Champion (see the entry on Abjurant Armor).

Wasn't sure what to pick up for my last feat, maybe Arcane Strike? I've already got Arcane Wrath from JPM and at 20 Arcane Boost from Abj. Champ. Considered Sudden Maximize, but he's running not enough of a blaster to make good use of it.

I take Persistent Spell a bit earlier than I can use it (since I get the metamagic feat free and I need the other feats later), but I'm sure that Power Attack + Persistent Wraithstrike will be pretty awesome.

Every maneuver from JPM I got from Devoted Spirit because, honestly, nothing in Desert Wind (the only other discipline JPM grants maneuvers from) looked pretty lackluster and not really in the flavor of the character I wanted to build... that, and the higher level Devoted Spirit maneuvers looked pretty good (Strike of Righteous Vitality? YES.).

I really liked the idea of Diamond Mind (esp. since I'd have a high concentration for constantly casting defensively anyway), so I just took the only 2 Diamond Mind maneuvers available at first level with my level of Warblade and used Martial Study to pick up through Diamond Nightmare Blade and Time Stands Still, both of which look like excellent abilities that fit well with the build. The idea of casting a quickened Sakkratar's Triple Strike (either from Quickening Strike or from a Spell Sequencer) and following up with a Time Stands Still while I've got Persistent Wraithstrike up just sounds sexy, even if I won't be able to pull it off for quite some time.

I also had another related question... would I be able to cast Heroics, granting myself a bonus fighter feat, choose Martial Study, and gain maneuver X and then cast it again, choosing Martial Study and gain maneuver Y, which requires maneuver X?

Heroics is persist-able, so it could be interesting to see what options are available.

Thrice Dead Cat
2011-01-07, 01:10 AM
Go ahead and drop evocation. You can use Orb of Fire from conjuration with the stance if it's really necessary.

I'm curious as to what you're grabbing with the Martial Studies, as you probably don't need all three. Heroics from Spell Compendium can nab you them as they're a fighter bonus feat, meaning that for 20 minutes per CL you can have the maneuver of your choice, rather than the permanent choice from the actual feat slots.

If you plan on making full attacks, you may want to grab Arcane Strike.

I'd also recommend throwing the pic into a spoiler, as it's currently winging the boards, too.

EDIT: As your swift actions are currently up to grabs for spells, maneuvers, and recovery, I'd also suggest that you use Crusader over Warblade. You lose 2 HP in favor of better maneuver progression in Devoted Spirit.

Yorae
2011-01-07, 01:26 AM
Put the pic in a spoiler and added some comments.



I'm curious as to what you're grabbing with the Martial Studies, as you probably don't need all three.

I'm using them to pick up the three Diamond Mind Maneuvers that are listed (Disrupting Blow -> Diamond Nightmare Blade -> Time Stands Still) -- I thought about grabbing them with heroics, but that only lasts 10 min/lvl per cast and it would take three spell slots every day just to get them for that duration. It also wouldn't be an option mid-combat, since I'd have to re-prepare my maneuvers to access the new one(s).

Also afraid that getting them like that might smell a little cheesy.


EDIT: As your swift actions are currently up to grabs for spells, maneuvers, and recovery, I'd also suggest that you use Crusader over Warblade. You lose 2 HP in favor of better maneuver progression in Devoted Spirit.


I considered doing this, but it really doesn't jibe with the flavor/personality of the character. That, and I think I would find it annoying and frustrating to have to randomly "unlock" my maneuvers round-by-round instead of just having them all available.

I'm concerned that he'll be too squishy until I get my first level of Abj. Champ.. maybe I can grab a Twilight Mithril Chain Shirt or something like that?

Thrice Dead Cat
2011-01-07, 01:33 AM
Put the pic in a spoiler and added some comments.


I'm using them to pick up the three Diamond Mind Maneuvers that are listed -- I thought about grabbing them with heroics, but that only lasts 10 min/lvl per cast and it would take three spell slots every day just to get them for that duration. It also wouldn't be an option mid-combat, since I'd have to re-prepare my maneuvers to access the new one(s).

Then grab them via Diamond Mind rings instead. Money is more available than feats.





I considered doing this, but it really doesn't jibe with the flavor/personality of the character. That, and I think I would find it annoying and frustrating to have to randomly "unlock" my maneuvers round-by-round instead of just having them all available.

I'm concerned that he'll be too squishy until I get my first level of Abj. Champ.. maybe I can grab a Twilight Mithril Chain Shirt or something like that?

The fluff between Crusader and Warblade is similar, assuming you focus more on the morale side of Devoted Spirit. As for the randomness of the aneuvers, to quote an old CO buff "A random choice out of a pile of awesome is still awesome."

As for actual armor, just use mage armor (greater) and the luminous armor series of spells. Those should hold you over and provide roughly the same AC as real armor.

JeminiZero
2011-01-07, 02:05 AM
For Armor, you can also use stuff like Feycraft (DMG 2) Thistledown Suit (RotW) Mithral Chain Shirt. 4 AC, 0 ASF, 2 ACP, about ~3K+ unenchanted.

I would delay your Warblade level as much as possible, probably taking it only at level 5. Remember that non-Martial levels count half towards initiator level, so 4 Wizard/1 Warblade counts as Initiator level 3, and can take level 2 Maneuvers off the bat (opening up MoPM and ABT in your case). In which case, you will want Feycraft Leafweave (also RoTW) Leather Armor which gives 2 AC, 0 ASF, 0 ACP for about ~1K+ until level 5. The 0 ACP means you don't incur any non-proficiency penalty for wearing the thing (since Wizards don't have light armor proficiency).

I would also consider taking a 2nd level in Warblade on level 6, which grants you better BAB and Maneuver pogression once you jump into JPM. E.g. 4 Wizard / 2 Warblade counts as Initiator level 4. When you take your first level in JPM, you count as initiator level 5, and can take a level 3 maneuver at that point. But you lose a caster level, and wind up without level 9 spells at level 20. It depends on whether you want better spells or better maneuvers.

Thrice Dead Cat
2011-01-07, 02:07 AM
For Armor, you can also use stuff like Feycraft (DMG 2) Thistledown Suit (RotW) Mithral Chain Shirt. 4 AC, 0 ASF, 2 ACP, about ~3K+ unenchanted.

I would delay your Warblade level as much as possible, probably taking it only at level 5. Remember that non-Martial levels count half towards initiator level, so 4 Wizard/1 Warblade counts as Initiator level 3, and can take level 2 Maneuvers off the bat (opening up MoPM and ABT in your case). In which case, you will want Feycraft Leafweave (also RoTW) Leather Armor which gives 2 AC, 0 ASF, 0 ACP for about ~1K+ until level 5. The 0 ACP means you don't incur any non-proficiency penalty for wearing the thing (since Wizards don't have light armor proficiency).

I would also consider taking a 2nd level in Warblade on level 6, which grants you better BAB and Maneuver pogression once you jump into JPM. E.g. 4 Wizard / 2 Warblade counts as Initiator level 4. When you take your first level in JPM, you count as initiator level 5, and can take a level 3 maneuver at that point. But you lose a caster level, and wind up without level 9 spells at level 20. It depends on whether you want better spells or better maneuvers.

Generally speaking, caster levels are more important than an extra base attack bonus or even IL, in this case.

Yorae
2011-01-07, 02:17 AM
Then grab them via Diamond Mind rings instead. Money is more available than feats.

If the DM allows them to be purchased, that would be awesome and would free up three feats. Not sure what I'd spend them on, though. Does one Diamond Mind Ring fulfill the requirements for the next one?

Also, I think I'd run out of decent maneuvers to take with JPM levels... I'm already taking pretty much all the good ones, imo. Having the two-school restriction is pretty lame, especially when one of those schools is Desert Wind.

Thrice Dead Cat
2011-01-07, 02:19 AM
If the DM allows them to be purchased, that would be awesome and would free up three feats. Not sure what I'd spend them on, though. Does one Diamond Mind Ring fulfill the requirements for the next one?

They're variants on the Crown of the White Raven item in Tome of Battle. You wear a magic ring in Diamond Mind's case and gain the benefits of said maneuver.

Yorae
2011-01-07, 02:30 AM
They're variants on the Crown of the White Raven item in Tome of Battle. You wear a magic ring in Diamond Mind's case and gain the benefits of said maneuver.

Hmmm... I suspect I could use the Martial Lore skill to figure out where I could purchase them and placate the DM with that.

That opens new questions: what do I do with those three feat slots now?

JeminiZero
2011-01-07, 02:35 AM
May I suggest Able Learner. Helps you keep maxing your skills, since JPM doesn't have any Knowledge or Spellcraft as Class skills.

Edit: If I could make another suggestion, you might want to take the 1st Abjurant Champion early on L9, so as smoothen out your IL/ML progression as follows:

1: Transmuter 1 (IL 0)
2: Transmuter 2 (IL 1)
3: Transmuter 3 (IL 1)
4: Transmuter 4 (IL 2)
5: Warblade 1 (IL 3) [To Get L2 Maneuvers]
6: Transmuter 5 (IL 3)
7: JPM 1 (IL 4) -New L2 Maneuver
8: JPM 2 (IL 5) [At this point you might want to buy a Novice Devoted Spirit Item to Gain an L3 Maneuver]
9: Abjurant Champion 1 (IL 6) [Because (5 Transmuter + 1 Abj Champ) /2 = +3 IL]
10: JPM 3 (IL 7) -New L4 Maneuver

Take JPM the rest of the way to pick up new maneuvers Devoted Spirit all the way from L5-L7. You probably want to skip the L8 one, since that isn't much good. Then finish off your last 3 levels with Abjurant Champion.

true_shinken
2011-01-07, 10:16 AM
That opens new questions: what do I do with those three feat slots now?
Dude, you're a gish. You'll want Arcane Strike and Minor Shapeshift, that's a given.

Douglas
2011-01-07, 11:19 AM
Sorry for the bad news, but with this build you don't qualify for 9th level maneuvers. At all. Until some point in epic, above level 20. That means no Time Stands Still and no Strike of Righteous Vitality. I haven't checked your other maneuvers for specifics.

Yorae
2011-01-07, 12:13 PM
Sorry for the bad news, but with this build you don't qualify for 9th level maneuvers. At all. Until some point in epic, above level 20. That means no Time Stands Still and no Strike of Righteous Vitality. I haven't checked your other maneuvers for specifics.

>_<

Just saw that table. I thought the required IL was = to the maneuver level, but it's actually much higher. Well, crap.

Looks like this build is totally scrapped.

Any ideas for a similar martial/arcane hybrid that DOES qualify for 9th level maneuvers? Or would it be more effective just to skip on them and rely more on magic?

Edit: Maybe Precocious Apprentice to qualify for JPM faster? Trying to figure out a way to keep my CL and my IL simultaneously high. If I've got to decide between high level spells and high level maneuvers, I'm probably going with maneuvers, since a lot of my more attractive spells are 2nd-5th level.

Keld Denar
2011-01-07, 12:49 PM
Have you considered some Sublime Chord? You might be able to get an IL high enough if you build off some kind of Sublime Chord chassis. Granted, it'll be a late bloomer, but you might be able to squeeze both 9th level spells and 9th level maneuvers out of this.

Maybe: Bard2/Warblade4/JPM4/SublimeChord2/JPM+6/AbjChamp2? Only loses 3 ILs, so you COULD get a 9th level maneuver if you swapped around the AbjChamp levels down to 18-19. You'd have to use a trick like Sanctum Spell or Versatile Spellcaster + Heighten Spell or Improved Sigil(Krau) to qualify for JPM though.

Yorae
2011-01-07, 05:08 PM
Have you considered some Sublime Chord? You might be able to get an IL high enough if you build off some kind of Sublime Chord chassis. Granted, it'll be a late bloomer, but you might be able to squeeze both 9th level spells and 9th level maneuvers out of this.

Maybe: Bard2/Warblade4/JPM4/SublimeChord2/JPM+6/AbjChamp2? Only loses 3 ILs, so you COULD get a 9th level maneuver if you swapped around the AbjChamp levels down to 18-19. You'd have to use a trick like Sanctum Spell or Versatile Spellcaster + Heighten Spell or Improved Sigil(Krau) to qualify for JPM though.

What's the benefit is using bard/sublime chord over wizard or wizard + another arcane caster? I looked at the class, but I think I'm missing something.

Losing the sorc/wiz spell list would kinda suck. =\

GoodbyeSoberDay
2011-01-07, 05:20 PM
Sublime Chord gets you the Sor/Wiz spell list, although you'll probably still cast better using wizard.

If you were more into re-fluffing, I'd suggest Ruby Knight Vindicator. By far the better maneuver/casting hybrid.

Keld Denar
2011-01-07, 05:21 PM
Sublime Chord has full access to the wiz/sorc spell list from 4th level up. The advantage is that it gives you more levels to cram in ILs that you'd otherwise be losing. You have 10 levels of JPM that are 1:1 IL. If you have more than 6 levels that are not Warblade then, you lose out on getting to IL17 by ECL20. If you put to many Warblade levels in, though, you fail at getting to CL17 to get 9th level spells. If your goal is duel 9s, like it appears to be, you need to keep your IL as strong as possible while not neglecting your spellcasting. Sublime Chord allows you to fill your lower levels with as many Warblade levels as you can cram in, use early entry shananigans for Sublime Chord so you don't need 3rd levels spells, and then pick up SC casting as if you hadn't missed out on anything.

The only issue is, you can't lose more than 1 level of spellcasting when you start Sublime Chord, as the first level can't be earlier than 10 (due to skill prereqs) otherwise you won't get to 9th level spells. JPM has 1 dead level between 2 and 10, which works out just fine as long as you take at least the first level prior to starting Sublime Chord.

Yorae
2011-01-07, 06:03 PM
Sublime Chord has full access to the wiz/sorc spell list from 4th level up. The advantage is that it gives you more levels to cram in ILs that you'd otherwise be losing. You have 10 levels of JPM that are 1:1 IL. If you have more than 6 levels that are not Warblade then, you lose out on getting to IL17 by ECL20. If you put to many Warblade levels in, though, you fail at getting to CL17 to get 9th level spells. If your goal is duel 9s, like it appears to be, you need to keep your IL as strong as possible while not neglecting your spellcasting. Sublime Chord allows you to fill your lower levels with as many Warblade levels as you can cram in, use early entry shananigans for Sublime Chord so you don't need 3rd levels spells, and then pick up SC casting as if you hadn't missed out on anything.

The only issue is, you can't lose more than 1 level of spellcasting when you start Sublime Chord, as the first level can't be earlier than 10 (due to skill prereqs) otherwise you won't get to 9th level spells. JPM has 1 dead level between 2 and 10, which works out just fine as long as you take at least the first level prior to starting Sublime Chord.

I think 9th and 9th isn't that important to me, but I'd definately want at least 7th spells and 9th maneuvers. The ability to swift-cast Sakkratar's Triple Strike out of Simbul's Spell Sequencer sounds pretty awesome. Been trying to figure out the best way to manage it... The problem I see with Sublime Chord is that a lot of my favorite spells for this guy are 1st-3rd level (e.g., Wraithstrike, Whirling Blade, Haste).

I'd actually really like to try out the Ruby Knight Windicator at some point, but this guy;s backstory sort of requires him to be arcane, rather than divine. =\

Yorae
2011-01-08, 12:01 AM
I've finally come up with a build I like -- here, I can get 7th level spells at level 17 and 9th level maneuvers at level 20, with a BAB of +18. I can finish off 19 and 20 with levels of Swordsage and spend all those new maneuvers on the high-level ones for which I would then qualify. No XP penalty on those levels, since my Warblade level is 2 (yay, favored class: any!).

I know I could probably be a little more optimal by not taking my first level of warblade until after the levels of wizard but I'd really like to have that weapon proficiency through the first several levels, especially my spell selection is primarily to enhance/support melee. I'd feel rather silly trying to do that with a quarterstaff (and having those few recoverable strikes should make my options when I run out of spells at lower levels more bearable).

1 - Warblade 1 (CL 0, IL 1) (Power Attack, Combat casting?)
2 - Transmuter 1 (CL 1, IL 1) (Fighter bonus feat?)
3 - Transmuter 2 (CL 2, IL 2) (Extend Spell)
4 - Transmuter 3 (CL 3, IL 2)
5 - Transmuter 4 (CL 4, IL 3)
6 - Warblade 2 (CL 4, IL 4) (Practiced Caster)
7 - Jade Phoenix Mage 1 (CL 4, IL 5)
8 - Abjurant Champion 1 (CL 5, IL 5)
9 - Abjurant Champion 2 (CL 6, IL 6) (?)
10 - Jade Phoenix Mage 2 (CL 7, IL 7)
11 - Jade Phoenix Mage 3 (CL 8, IL 8)
12 - Jade Phoenix Mage 4 (CL 9, IL 9) (?)
13 - Jade Phoenix Mage 5 (CL 10, IL 10)
14 - Jade Phoenix Mage 6 (CL 10, IL 11)
15 - Jade Phoenix Mage 7 (CL 11, IL 12) (Persistent Spell)
16 - Jade Phoenix Mage 8 (CL 12, IL 13)
17 - Jade Phoenix Mage 9 (CL 13, IL 14)
18 - Jade Phoenix Mage 10 (CL 14, IL 15) (?)
19 - Swordsage 1 (CL 14, IL 16)
20 - Swordsage 2 (CL 14, IL 17)

My only real regret here is that I'll miss out on the only 8th level spell that I really liked - the hilarity that is Polymorph Any Object. The extra maneuvers probably make up for it. I kind of considered doing something different and going for Master of Nine, but you have to blow so many feats to get into it that it's hardly worth it.

I'm still trying to decide on the feats -- I plan on buying a few of the maneuver-granting items when I can make use of them, so no Martial Study necessary. Minor Shapeshift is a good option, assumst of the time. I don't really think that Arcane Strike will be that useful, wing I keep a poly or baleful poly around to power it, which should be mohen I have Arcane Wrath around anyway, which does almost the same thing (and they would compete for spell slots to drop). Any other suggestions?

Edit: Just realized that there is a variant wizard in unearthed arcana that lets you drop scribe scroll and the bonus metamagic feats to gain fighter bonus feats, so now I've got a bonus fighter feat to pick at Transmuter 1.

GoodbyeSoberDay
2011-01-08, 02:13 AM
ToB pg. 39:

Prestige classes work a little differently. In most cases, you add the full prestige class level to your martial adept level to determine your initiator level. See the prestige class descriptions in Chapter 5 for details.Ask your DM whether or not Abjurant Champion qualifies as fully advancing IL. I'd allow it if I was your DM, but YMMV obviously.

Thrice Dead Cat
2011-01-08, 02:15 AM
ToB pg. 39:
Ask your DM whether or not Abjurant Champion qualifies as fully advancing IL. I'd allow it if I was your DM, but YMMV obviously.

I believe that text refers only to the prestige classes found within Tome of Battle itself.

Yorae
2011-01-08, 02:47 AM
I believe that text refers only to the prestige classes found within Tome of Battle itself.

AFAIK, it does. My interpretation was that it advances it 0.5 of a level, like every other non-ToB class and I don't really want to push for a house rule.

Edit: Okay, I went and reread that in context and... yeah, it actually does sound like Abj. Champ. would increase it by 1 IL. It doesn't specifically mention martial prestige classes.

GoodbyeSoberDay
2011-01-08, 02:53 AM
I believe that text refers only to the prestige classes found within Tome of Battle itself.I'll grant that it's vague, but "in most cases" seems to me that it implies there are many PrCs outside Tome of Battle that qualify.

Douglas
2011-01-08, 03:02 AM
I'll grant that it's vague, but "in most cases" seems to me that it implies there are many PrCs outside Tome of Battle that qualify.
"In most cases", followed by a reference to another chapter in the same book, which contains 8 PrCs, 7 of which specifically state they advance IL at full, combined with no criterion for which not-in-that-book PrCs qualify... All of that together rather strongly implies that it's only referring to the ToB PrCs.

Thrice Dead Cat
2011-01-08, 03:28 AM
"In most cases", followed by a reference to another chapter in the same book, which contains 8 PrCs, 7 of which specifically state they advance IL at full, combined with no criterion for which not-in-that-book PrCs qualify... All of that together rather strongly implies that it's only referring to the ToB PrCs.

However, the sentence you quoted is followed by "See the prestige class descriptions in chapter 5 for more details," suggesting that it may indeed refer only to martial adept prestige classes, despite things like Jade Phoenix Mage only granting access to Desert Wind and Devoted Spirit.

Yorae
2011-01-11, 04:29 PM
Okay, after much deliberation, I thought I'd try something more like this:

http://img820.imageshack.us/img820/3205/progression.png

However, I have a few more questions and one problem I can think of...

Firstly, as strong as Persistent Spell is and as much as I'd like to cast Persistent Wraithstrike and the like, I was going by an older reference, apparently, which said that the spell level adjustment for a Persistent spell was +4. However, I now see in Complete Arcane that, by SRD, it is now actually +6, which kind of blows by plans for persisting level 2 spells, since I top out at 7th level (and I'm not sacrificing 9th level maneuvers). I can't figure out a practical way to cut down the level of the metamagic cost to make Persistent Spell useful, so I may need to replace it. Any opinions?

I took the alternate class feature from Unearthed Arcana that sacrifices Scribe Scroll and wizard bonus feats for fighter bonus feats and used that to grab combat reflexes. Combat Reflexes (more AoOs) + Thicket of Blades (get an AoO when an enemy makes any movement, even a 5 ft. step) + Defensive Sweep (gain an AoO if an enemy DOESN'T move at least a 5 ft. step) should be pretty nice, even if I do have to spend a feat on Martial Stance to get Thicket of Blades. Even moreso once I can get Rapid Counter (make an extra attack when you get an AoO), though Rapid Counter and Defensive Sweep won't be gained until pretty high levels.

Knowledge Devotion, for those who are unaware, is a feat that allows you to make a knowledge check based on creature type when you first see that type of creature in an encounter. Based on the result of the knowledge check, you gain an attack and damage bonus against creatures of that type during the encounter. Since all Knowledge skills are class skills for Wizards and JPM gives a bonus to all Knowledge skills, it seemed like I could get a pretty good benefit from this. The question I had here is about the skill trick "Collector of Stories", which grants a +5 competence bonus to a knowledge check made to "identify a creature or to learn its special powers or vulnerabilities." Knowledge Devotion states "You can use your knowledge to exploit your foes' weaknesses and overcome their strengths." Makes sense to me, but I wanted some additional opinions to confirm that I can actually use the skill trick to boost the roll for Knowledge Devotion.

Keld Denar
2011-01-11, 04:49 PM
1) There are metamagic reducers. Outside of Divine Metamagic (which you can't use, due to no TU, and the fact that it doesn't work with Arcane Magic), they tend to be rather inefficient. If you just want it for Wraith Strike, then Arcane Thesis would help. If you want it for Persist Spell, if you were Dragonblooded (see Dragon Magic for details) you could take Practical Metamagic to reduce all applications of Persist Spell by 1. If you have access to Dragon Magazines, there is also Easy Metamagic, which is the same as Practical Metamagic, but without the pesky Dragonblooded subtype requirement. Since you are a specialist, you could also take Metamagic School Focus, which reduces the Metamagic adjustment of your specialty school by 1, up to 3 spells per day. VERY questionable reading of the feat could imply that you could apply all 3 reductions to one spell, allowing you to adjust one Persist by -3, but thats...yea... Regardless, you are gonna have to dump a couple more feats, which you are already stretched on, and I'll get into that on the next point.

2) You don't qualify for Martial Stance. Martial Stance requires Martial Study. Even if you already know manevuers of that school, you still have to take the prereq feat. Thats another feat you have to take, if you want access to it. Otherwise, wait and pick it up as a JPM stance at JPM5, IIRC.

3) Your question about Knowledge Devotion is pretty common. The general consensus seems to be that while it isn't explicit, its not a far grasp. Best consult your DM. Remember though, you can only use skill tricks once per encounter, so you'd only get the bonus vs the first thing you use KD against. So...if you were fighting a lich riding a dragon, you could roll KD for Arcane against the dragon with the +5, or Religion against the lich, but whichever you didn't get the +5 against, you'd have to make a straight Knowledge roll.

Honestly, it looks like you are trying to do a bit too much. Gishing is kinda feat intensive. Lockdown is kinda feat intensive. You don't really have any bonus feats from anything, and thus having a hard time getting it all pieced together. Gishes do damage and defenses VERY well, focus on those two things and drop Thicket and Defensive Sweep. If you still want to do the AoO thing, play into your defensive miss chances and pick up Robilar's Gambit for MOAR DAMAGE. Also, I detect an unsettling lack of Greater Mirror Image in your build. Its in Complete Mage. Look it up. Then look at the casting time. Then scoop your jaw off the floor and write it on your character sheet. You won't regret it.

Douglas
2011-01-11, 04:53 PM
You're still not qualifying for 9th level maneuvers. The base martial adept classes only count as full initiator level for their own progression, so Swordsage 2 + JPM 10 + 8 levels of half progression = initiator level 16 at level 20, 1 short of what you need for 9th level maneuvers.

Yorae
2011-01-11, 05:13 PM
You're still not qualifying for 9th level maneuvers. The base martial adept classes only count as full initiator level for their own progression, so Swordsage 2 + JPM 10 + 8 levels of half progression = initiator level 16 at level 20, 1 short of what you need for 9th level maneuvers.

Going by the premise that the prestige class clause in ToB regarding IL, I'm counting Abjurant Champion as granting full IL, which gets me to 17 IL at 20.

Keld Denar
2011-01-11, 05:22 PM
That clause is specific to PrCs that advance manevuers. It only refers to the PrCs in ToB, with the exception of Bloodstorm Blade, which doesn't. Non-initiator PrCs only advance IL at the normal non-IL advancement rate, IE 1 per 2 levels gained.

Thrice Dead Cat
2011-01-11, 05:23 PM
Going by the premise that the prestige class clause in ToB regarding IL, I'm counting Abjurant Champion as granting full IL, which gets me to 17 IL at 20.

I still don't buy that due to the last sentence on that blurb, referring people to chapter 5 of Tome of Battle. If your DM runs with it, that way, that's fine, but generally you're better off grabbing 9th level spells and 7th level maneuvers than the reverse. This would also let you save a feat on easy metamagic for persistent wraithstrike/heroics/whatever else.

Yorae
2011-01-11, 05:44 PM
1) There are metamagic reducers. Outside of Divine Metamagic (which you can't use, due to no TU, and the fact that it doesn't work with Arcane Magic), they tend to be rather inefficient. If you just want it for Wraith Strike, then Arcane Thesis would help. If you want it for Persist Spell, if you were Dragonblooded (see Dragon Magic for details) you could take Practical Metamagic to reduce all applications of Persist Spell by 1. If you have access to Dragon Magazines, there is also Easy Metamagic, which is the same as Practical Metamagic, but without the pesky Dragonblooded subtype requirement. Since you are a specialist, you could also take Metamagic School Focus, which reduces the Metamagic adjustment of your specialty school by 1, up to 3 spells per day. VERY questionable reading of the feat could imply that you could apply all 3 reductions to one spell, allowing you to adjust one Persist by -3, but thats...yea... Regardless, you are gonna have to dump a couple more feats, which you are already stretched on, and I'll get into that on the next point.


I'm considering just dropping the persistent idea anyway, since in retrospect Persistent Wraithstrike seems a little cheesy and I'm not sure my DM would look fondly upon me making every attack I make a touch attack.




2) You don't qualify for Martial Stance. Martial Stance requires Martial Study. Even if you already know manevuers of that school, you still have to take the prereq feat. Thats another feat you have to take, if you want access to it. Otherwise, wait and pick it up as a JPM stance at JPM5, IIRC.


Was really hoping to pick up Aura of Chaos for that one, since it has pretty good synergy with Arcane Wrath and... well, it's just kinda cool.

As for Martial Stance, I was a little shocked that it required Martial Study, so I went back and read it:



MARTIAL STANCE
You have mastered the fundamentals of a martial discipline, and you are now able to master one of its stances.
Prerequisite: One martial maneuver.
Benefit: When you gain this feat, you can select any stance from a discipline in which you already know at least one maneuver. You must meet the normal prerequisite of the stance...


I do qualify -- it doesn't require Martial Study, just that you already know a maneuver from the discipline of the stance that you want to learn.




3) Your question about Knowledge Devotion is pretty common. The general consensus seems to be that while it isn't explicit, its not a far grasp. Best consult your DM. Remember though, you can only use skill tricks once per encounter, so you'd only get the bonus vs the first thing you use KD against. So...if you were fighting a lich riding a dragon, you could roll KD for Arcane against the dragon with the +5, or Religion against the lich, but whichever you didn't get the +5 against, you'd have to make a straight Knowledge roll.


Yeah, I understood that skill tricks are one use/encounter. I think my DM will be fine with this, though.



Honestly, it looks like you are trying to do a bit too much. Gishing is kinda feat intensive. Lockdown is kinda feat intensive. You don't really have any bonus feats from anything, and thus having a hard time getting it all pieced together. Gishes do damage and defenses VERY well, focus on those two things and drop Thicket and Defensive Sweep. If you still want to do the AoO thing, play into your defensive miss chances and pick up Robilar's Gambit for MOAR DAMAGE. Also, I detect an unsettling lack of Greater Mirror Image in your build. Its in Complete Mage. Look it up. Then look at the casting time. Then scoop your jaw off the floor and write it on your character sheet. You won't regret it.

IMMEDIATE?!
...
...
/jawscoop

Definitely adding that to the list. I also cut off the bit of the chart up there showing the additional spells that I wanted to learn aside from the 2/level you get from wizard casting, so this time it doesn't show every spell on the list.

Robilar's Gambit may be a good idea... and it takes up the level 15 slot that Persistent Spell used to use (the earliest I'll be qualified for it, given the +12 BAB requirement. In place of Defensive Sweep (and with good synergy to Robilar's Gambit), I could learn Repelling Shield (3rd level abjuration, Complete Mage), which gives the same shield bonus as Shield, but pushes opponents away 5 ft whenever they attack the caster (reflex save to avoid). Could they attack me, provoke an AoO from Robilar's, get knocked back, provoke an AoO from Thicket of Blades, and then get another attack from Rapid Counter? ...ouch.

I should probably also pick up Blur and/or Displacement if I'm going that route, I'll see what looks good.

That'll also free up my level 18 feat for something new, as well... Could drop the Thicket of Blades thing (I know I'm clinging to that, it just sounds neat) and grab Easy Metamagic for +0 Extend Spells (pretty nice by itself) and Take Persistent at 18 and cast Persistent 2nd level spells as 7th levels, which I will have access to... Or, like I said, I could just from Persistent for something else entirely.

Edit: If my interpretation of the PrC IL thing doesn't hold water, I can always take Warblade 3/4 instead of Swordsage 1/2 for levels 19/20.

Double Edit: D'oh, just realized that Easy Metamagic only applies to one specific other metamagic feat.. might still take it for extend though, that's pretty sexy. Leaves the question of what to take for 18th level open, though.

Triple Edit: Also, assuming my Abj. Champ. ruling goes over alright, that would mean I could fill my last two levels with 2 more levels of wizard casting in addition to initiator levels, which would let me use 8th level spells, reclaiming Polymorph Any Object.... or, I could take Abj. Champ 3 and gain two 8th level spell slots, then take Swordsage 1 and gain a handful of new maneuvers, ending with 8th level spells and 9th level maneuvers.

Keld Denar
2011-01-11, 07:13 PM
Metamagic Rods of Extend are REALLY cheap, comparatively. I wouldn't waste a feat on Easy Metamagic for Extend. Heck, I'd just use Extend normally, if I was gonna use it at all.

Yea, I still think you are trying to do a bit too much with this character. Thicket is pretty lackluster if you don't have a reach weapon, especially a reach weapon that can attack adjacent. I don't see a feat for EWP: Spiked Chain. If you are trying to take advantage of AoOs, you don't want to rely on wimpy armor spikes (which you can't PA with) for your adjacent AoO damage.

I'd get a glaive and drop most of the AoO stuff, or I'd get a spiked chain and try to do a bit more with control, dropping other stuff as needed. You probably REALLY don't want to drop Minor Shapeshift, as its a huge survivability boost, and Knowledge Devotion is clutch, so there isn't a whole lot you can really squeeze in there at this moment.

Yorae
2011-01-11, 07:30 PM
I could also just not take one or more of the fighter feats and cast Heroics (10 min/lvl) to make up for it.

Keld Denar
2011-01-11, 07:36 PM
If you get a Lesser MM Rod of Extend (which are like, 3000g), that Heroics would last you 20 min/lvl, or an hour per 3 CLs. Grab a couple of Pearl of Power 2s (4000g each), and you can get some all day buffage out of those Heroics.

Whether multiple Heroics stack, is kinda a questionable thing. Whether it gives you Bonus Feat(Combat Reflexes) and thus stacks, or whether it just gives you Bonus Feat, which you define as part of the spell, but is the same effect (as multiple castings of a spell with the same effect don't stack).

Yorae
2011-01-11, 07:50 PM
So, if I'm not spending those feats getting AoO-happy... what can I spend them on? =p

I think I can avoid the potential rereq issue with Heroics because I'll have a fighter bonus feat to take at 2nd level anyway, which may as well be Combat Reflexes (since I'm certainly not spending my XP to make scrolls).

Thrice Dead Cat
2011-01-11, 07:50 PM
RAW is that multiple spells do stack for things like Heroics. The issue is, if you nabbed, say Point Blank Shot and Weapon Focus (relevant bow here), you'd still only get the +1 to-hit bonus, since that's the only thing RAW cares about when it comes to stacking (explicitly, that is, bonuses from the same source). So, you could use Heroics for the entire TWFing line just fine.

Curmudgeon I think cleared that up a while back.

Yorae
2011-01-11, 10:28 PM
Arg, realized that I've dropped combat casting, which is required for Abj. Champ. Shuffling feats again....

Yorae
2011-01-11, 11:33 PM
Arg, realized that I've dropped combat casting, which is required for Abj. Champ. Shuffling feats again....

Smiting Spell seems to fit perfectly for flavor, but... is it just me or does it really suck? If I have to use two actions, one to cast the spell into the weapon, then another to discharge it, that's almost worse than just casting the touch spell one round and then just attacking normally the next.