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Emerald
2011-01-07, 10:48 AM
I have a DM/ST problem.

I have a player who hates to "Railroad", I asked what that ment. The player told me that they don't like games that don't allow the toon any choices.
To show what I mean.
I had the toon go into a house. The play told me that the toon would like to cast a spell. I told the player that he could, but it soon fails after they cast. The play asked why was this. I then told the player that it was because the room was strang, hoping the play would look around the house to solve the puzzle to relieve the problem. Instead, he gets upset that I don't revile more story to the 'why' of the room. The player also made a good role to finding out what the room was doing. I told the player after the role that it was strang. This didn't make the player happy. Soon the player left, stopping the game in it tracks.

How do I keep the story going, without having this player walking out on me, because they feel "Railroaded"?

Psyx
2011-01-07, 10:56 AM
What you did is NOT railroading.

The problem here is your player.

Too many players shout 'railroading' when what they mean is 'you're not letting me have everything that I want, how I want it, when I want it.

true_shinken
2011-01-07, 11:01 AM
The player told me that they don't like games that don't allow the toon any choices.

Everytime someone refers to a character by 'toon' (specially one not in a MMO or something) I die a little inside.

Sipex
2011-01-07, 11:05 AM
Yeah, your player is just having a hissy fit, you weren't railroading.

Douglas
2011-01-07, 11:10 AM
This sounds like partly a communication problem. If I were a player in a situation like that and the DM told me the room was "strange" with no further details, that would not immediately cause me to think "puzzle to be solved, look around some more". With information and explanation that limited, there is nothing to distinguish it from "DM fiat, you're not allowed to cast spells here because that would mess up my plot".

This is bad:
PC: I cast X spell
DM: spell fails
PC: why?
DM: This room is strange
PC: I try to figure out why my spell failed. *rolls*
DM: Er, the room is... strange.

As the PC in that exchange, I'd get a strong feeling of DM fiat.

This is better:
PC: I cast X spell
DM: spell fails
PC: why?
DM: There's something odd about this room.
PC: I try to figure out why my spell failed.
DM: How do you go about doing that?
PC: Er, I don't know, analyzing what happened to my spell's magic energy? *rolls Spellcraft*
DM: Something disrupted your spell partway through casting, but you can't pin down the source of the disruption. You might recognize it if you find it, though.

As the PC in that exchange, I'd start searching the room.


Soon the player left, stopping the game in it tracks.
It's not entirely clear here whether you mean the player left the game, or whether the player had his character leave the room. If it's the latter option, having a plot that can't deal with actions like that is indeed railroading.


How do I keep the story going, without having this player walking out on me, because they feel "Railroaded"?
A) Better communication, particularly in making sure the player understands you're not arbitrarily cutting him off with a dead end.
B) Design your plot so it does not depend on the players taking a specific action unless you are absolutely certain that they will take that action.

Stegyre
2011-01-07, 11:33 AM
B) Design your plot so it does not depend on the players taking a specific action unless you are absolutely certain that they will take that action.
And not even then: your players will surprise you, and what seems absolutely certain to you may not be so to them.

Or even worse, they will discern that you believe that course is "absolutely certain," so they will fear a trap, and look for every way possible not to take that particular course. If you have players like that, you really need to go back to basics: is this a cooperative game (between GM and players) or an antagonistic one?

GeminiVeil
2011-01-07, 11:37 AM
I have a feeling I'm the player to which OP is referring to. If so, I would like to add a few things to what was posted.
#1. The game is oWoD, and I was playing a Tremere.
#2. There were a total of 4 people in the game.
#3. The problems didn't just start with this action. There was RP opportuinity in front of the prince that I, and by extension, my character was completely ignored for about 90% of the interaction. So I wasn't able to contribute there. (at least this is how I felt. I was told later that 2 of the players plus DM that I wasn't talking loud enough, even though I was talking at conversation level. However, one particular incident DM was talking to player next to me, and in the middle of him answering, started talking to another player.)
#4. I designed my character to be as close to a master of mysticism as I could. I had a combined Int/Wis+Occult of 7-8.
#5. That is exactly the information I got. The first part of douglas that is preface by 'this is bad'. I was told the room was odd, DM requested I make a roll to figure out why. Rolled 3 successes, was again told "There is something odd about the room."
#6. First I had my character leave and try to use his blood magic to set something on fire. (which worked fine) Then, because of a bad description of the room/s, tried to get the fire into the library, and was told, even though the description was told 10-20 minutes before that this wasn't so and the map said it would have been doable, that I couldn't because that's not how the room was laid out.
#7. It was essentially at this point, with my character having not been able to do any RP with the prince, and not being able to do the one thing I designed my character for (i.e. not 'just casting spells' all the time, but couldn't even tell why my character couldn't) that I called railroading.

I can take criticism, so if people still think that what I did was wrong, please say so. I just felt that the OP was missing some information.

Ravens_cry
2011-01-07, 11:39 AM
Everytime someone refers to a character by 'toon' (specially one not in a MMO or something) I die a little inside.
Well, there is one PnP role playing game it would be more then appropriate, but yeah, I can see what you are saying. Still, as people who play WoW and other MMO's start playing Pen and Paper for the first time, they are going to bring some of their terminology with them, just like Wargaming did when it invented pen and paper role playing games.
***
Anyway, I can sympathize with both the OP and the player in this case. The player probably feels you are simply stripping of their primary class ability by fiat. That feels arbitrary. There is options in the game for doing so, like an anti-magic feild. Simply saying the room is strange, even when the character may have the knowledge and skill ( Spellcraft and (likely) Knowledge:Arcana) to recognize an anti-magic feild for what it is, just adds to this feeling for the player.
On the other hand, you made a puzzle and you wanted your players to solve it. This is one of the heartbreaks of DMing, why railroading is so tempting. You can have something super special you cooked up and the players can go "Yeah, we don't go in that room."
Beware the Railroad, my son, the jaws that bite, the claws that catch!
Wait, that's the Jabberwocky.

Sipex
2011-01-07, 11:42 AM
With player opinion weighed in it still doesn't seem to be railroading, just bad communication between parties (possibly both, I haven't heard enough from the DM's side to judge).

The player (Gemini) doesn't understand what's going on and is upset because he's not getting the information or attention he needs as a player.

true_shinken
2011-01-07, 11:58 AM
Well, there is one PnP role playing game it would be more then appropriate, but yeah, I can see what you are saying. Still, as people who play WoW and other MMO's start playing Pen and Paper for the first time, they are going to bring some of their terminology with them, just like Wargaming did when it invented pen and paper role playing games.
Is it a Toon pbp?

After reading what the player has to say, it shone some light into this wholde deal. I have to rectify my previous statement:

Everytime someone refers to a World of Darkness character by 'toon' (specially one not in a MMO or something) I die a lot inside.

BlackSheep
2011-01-07, 11:59 AM
Providing the right amount of information to players can be tricky. Too much feels like giving away the store, too little and players just feel like they're floundering. How much is right depends on the play style of the group. I've seen numerous groups that are super theatrical and outgoing in a battle scenario but become stuttering fools when they try to gather information in a tavern or town. Designing encounters accordingly is a real challenge. The only real advice I could offer is try try again. The DM will learn what the players expect, the players will learn what the DM is trying to tell them, and things will smooth out. As long as everyone's trying, at least.

Earthwalker
2011-01-07, 12:02 PM
It might be best for the GM and player to talk this out between them. it seems a problem with comunication, of course if one of them doesnt want to play in the game any more then nothing can be done.

Myth
2011-01-07, 12:55 PM
{Scrubbed}

Tyndmyr
2011-01-07, 01:02 PM
How do I keep the story going, without having this player walking out on me, because they feel "Railroaded"?

You refer to them all as toons, repeatedly spell strange as "strang" in addition to other misspellings, and you consider the simple statement that "the room is strange" to be indicative of a puzzle.

I diagnose a communication problem, and suggest you delve through the books for example dialog between DM and players(most systems have them). In particular, explain details, and take some time to ensure they are descriptive and consistent.

Sipex
2011-01-07, 01:05 PM
While the description of 'toons' did baffle me I'm not sure why we're so hung up on it.

But yeah, again, communication. DM needs to communicate with this particular player better.

Emerald
2011-01-07, 03:38 PM
To address the 'toon' issuse. I use the word 'toon' because I can't spell very well and thuse instead of useing 'charter' I use 'toon.'

To address GeminiVaile.
This doesn't have to do with just the WoD toon, but most issuse where your toon and yourself don't get enough information for the ST/DM to move your toon forward. All the information must be told to you for you not to feel, 'Railroaded'. And from what I understand of DM/ST, you are not to tell every detail to the player for risk of tell the plot, side gaming, or out-of-toon playing.

The information I've got so far is useful in futhering my skills as ST/DM.

During the game in question, I was intoxicated, but the information I got from other players was that they also could not hear the player, and that I did point out where the puzzle was and that the windows showed that the room was a puzzle, but the toon broke most of the windows.
I admite, I should use more words in decribing the rooms 'strangness' to please the players. Comunitcation seems to be a big issuse in this 'Railroading' problem.

This one player has this issuse of feeling 'Railroaded', but I was trying to find other ways in dealing with this issuse with other players as well. Understanding the terms of 'not allowing toon a choice', is my problem at this time.

Also, the player got up from the game as a player and took half the players with them as told by GeminiVail.

Tyndmyr
2011-01-07, 03:42 PM
If you are old enough to legally be intoxicated, you are old enough to spell correctly. A frequent abbreviation for "character" is "char", if it's easier.

Also, I advise keeping drinking to a minimum during roleplaying. Nothing wrong with social drinking, but I find that, like many other activities happening during roleplaying, it can be a distraction. Especially if the DM is intoxicated.

Sipex
2011-01-07, 03:45 PM
Lets not tease people for their spelling habits, ok? That tends to end in situations where they reply "English isn't my first language." and then you feel bad about yourself. (Experience)

It also kills the friendly atmosphere everyone claims we have.

Tyndmyr
2011-01-07, 03:51 PM
It's not teasing, it's a relevant issue to communication skills. If the game is happening in English, then it needs to be fixed. Given that one player posted in decent English, it seems a reasonable assumption.

Comet
2011-01-07, 03:53 PM
Lets not tease people for their spelling habits, ok? That tends to end in situations where they reply "English isn't my first language." and then you feel bad about yourself. (Experience)

It also kills the friendly atmosphere everyone claims we have.

Agreeing with this fellow here. edit: though the part about communication skills is solid advice. And drinking while gaming is certainly something that does not work for everyone
No one in this scenario was the bad guy/gal. It was a simple case of miscommunication which led to everyone being a bit dissatisfied with the game. But now you know what went wrong and you can try to describe every situation better and try to give everyone at the table more options and pay more attention to what they want to do.

A really good method for this is the "Yes, but..." plan. Try not to just say "no" when a player can't perform a certain action. Instead let them accomplish a part of that action and then give them enough clues to figure out what went wrong with the rest. Sure, the spell didn't work, but it might have caused something else to happen, which the players can investigate and learn new things about why magic is acting strange in that area.
A flat "no" rarely works. The players' actions should always have some consequence. Sure, it might be good or bad but at least they'll never feel like they've hit a wall.

Sometimes things don't work out as planned. Everyone just needs to accept this and try to do better next time.

Stegyre
2011-01-07, 03:57 PM
Spelling's not an issue.

Intoxication . . . :smallannoyed: . . . that's no way to GM, and it's got nothing to do with railroading.

GMing isn't easy; and doing it well is harder still. You're going to need those brain cells.

Tyndmyr
2011-01-07, 03:59 PM
Unfortunately, this comes from personal experience. The last time I DMed drunk has forever after been referred to as "That time we found all the magic items in the giant beehive".

Sipex
2011-01-07, 04:00 PM
I will weigh in on intoxication.

It's entirely dependant on group and amount.

Also, +1 to Comet's advice.


Unfortunately, this comes from personal experience. The last time I DMed drunk has forever after been referred to as "That time we found all the magic items in the giant beehive".

That's hilarious.

hamishspence
2011-01-07, 04:01 PM
I remember a Dork Tower strip from Dragon magazine where it was chocolate-covered extra-strong coffee beans that was the substance.

The DM in this case tended to narrate overexcitedly.

Kesnit
2011-01-07, 04:09 PM
This doesn't have to do with just the WoD toon, but most issuse where your toon and yourself don't get enough information for the ST/DM to move your toon forward. All the information must be told to you for you not to feel, 'Railroaded'. And from what I understand of DM/ST, you are not to tell every detail to the player for risk of tell the plot, side gaming, or out-of-toon playing.

OTOH, as an ST, you have to provide information. Your player rolled a knowledge check to find out why the spell didn't work. The player succeeded, and with more than 1 success. But you provided no new information. Instead, you gave an answer that (just from reading it) sounds very much a ST fiat.

arguskos
2011-01-07, 04:24 PM
Unfortunately, this comes from personal experience. The last time I DMed drunk has forever after been referred to as "That time we found all the magic items in the giant beehive".
...sooooo, drinking while gaming produces awesome stories? ...what are we waiting for? :smallbiggrin:

WarKitty
2011-01-07, 04:29 PM
To the player: I frequently have the same problem. What I consider to be a normal conversational voice, I am often told is too quiet. I find the voices many other people use normally to be extremely loud. You sort of just have to train yourself out of it. Try shouting - not loud shouting, but raise your voice a bit. It takes time to be comfortable with it, but it does work. Ask someone around you to tell you if it gets too loud.

true_shinken
2011-01-07, 04:53 PM
...sooooo, drinking while gaming produces awesome stories? ...what are we waiting for? :smallbiggrin:

I'll provide an anecdote.
Do you guys remember the soccer world cup last year? I'm brazilian and soccer is a big deal here. There was this game - Paraguay versus Spain. This was kind of big game, for reasons not limited to soccer. Larissa Riquelme (http://olharesinsolitos.com/img/modelo-larissa-riquelme/modelo_larissa_riquelme_001.jpg) was going to win if Paraguay won. So I bought a few beers, had some friends over and we began rooting like crazy for Paraguay. We knew we had a game session afterwards, but there is no postponing Larissa Riquelme nakeda World Cup game. Among the three of us, we had something like 25~30 beers (that's bottles, not cans). I'm a small guy, so I was kinda high... and I'm the DM.
Fortunatelly, the session began with planning and they took a long time planning and lamenting Paraguay's defeat, so I sobbered up just fine.
Afterwards, I read the notes I wrote while drunk. I'm actually happy we spent so much time cryingunhappy about Paraguay losing, because otherwise we'd have a campaign breaker in hand (I planned for the BBEG to attack the party alone, head-on, in their own headquarters. Crazy.)

arguskos
2011-01-07, 04:57 PM
To the player: I frequently have the same problem. What I consider to be a normal conversational voice, I am often told is too quiet. I find the voices many other people use normally to be extremely loud. You sort of just have to train yourself out of it. Try shouting - not loud shouting, but raise your voice a bit. It takes time to be comfortable with it, but it does work. Ask someone around you to tell you if it gets too loud.
*What?* :smallwink: Just havin' a spot of fun.

But seriously, this is great advice if you're having voice issues. I've got a player who just doesn't talk up enough, and then gets pissy cause I was "ignoring him". Dammit man, if you never SAY anything, how can I ignore you? Just learn to jump in sometimes and say something, and I'll give you a fair shake, like I do with anyone else.


I'll provide an anecdote.
Do you guys remember the soccer world cup last year? I'm brazilian and soccer is a big deal here. There was this game - Paraguay versus Spain. This was kind of big game, for reasons not limited to soccer. Larissa Riquelme (http://olharesinsolitos.com/img/modelo-larissa-riquelme/modelo_larissa_riquelme_001.jpg) was going to win if Paraguay won. So I bought a few beers, had some friends over and we began rooting like crazy for Paraguay. We knew we had a game session afterwards, but there is no postponing Larissa Riquelme nakeda World Cup game. Among the three of us, we had something like 25~30 beers (that's bottles, not cans). I'm a small guy, so I was kinda high... and I'm the DM.
Fortunatelly, the session began with planning and they took a long time planning and lamenting Paraguay's defeat, so I sobbered up just fine.
Afterwards, I read the notes I wrote while drunk. I'm actually happy we spent so much time cryingunhappy about Paraguay losing, because otherwise we'd have a campaign breaker in hand (I planned for the BBEG to attack the party alone, head-on, in their own headquarters. Crazy.)
Sounds like a party. Shoulda rolled with it, just for giggles.

Another_Poet
2011-01-07, 05:12 PM
...sooooo, drinking while gaming produces awesome stories? ...what are we waiting for? :smallbiggrin:

It's also the first step to Strip D&D! Yay!

Strip D&D: where hit points are clothing and power points are... clothing.

true_shinken
2011-01-07, 05:19 PM
Strip D&D: where hit points are clothing and power points are... clothing.
Sir, this is true poetry.

Stegyre
2011-01-07, 05:55 PM
It's also the first step to Strip D&D! Yay!
That . . . depends very much on your gaming group. :smalleek:

Emerald
2011-01-07, 07:18 PM
Interesting.

To address the spelling issuse.
I was unable to read untill I was 15 years of age. So my spelling is far from being normale levels of educational stander. I'm happy to be able to spell well enough for people to understand me.

To address the 'toon', issuse.
I will start to use 'char' as sugested.

To the topic on hand.
Being drunk was not fair to my players for half felt ingnord, due to the fact they didn't talk loud enough even though they swear they did, and my lack of creativity to give them a game with better detail. But this issuse has been a problem before I was drunk. The player has walked out on many games where I was not the ST/DM. But reading the comments that have been given, I see now what would cause such fuss. The lack of detail.

Another story to tell that was given as a reason of 'Railroading'. The ST had us all find magic stones that had writing on them. The player had a very educated halfling who knew a lot about arcan magic. Two other players, that are not core base, could read the stones just fine. But the ST would not let the halfling read the stone even though he could cast 'read magic' and 'comperhend langued'. The 'char' was sucessfull in his roll's and the player knew it was a plot device, but was mad that his 'char' could still not read the stones and was not given a good reason why he couldn't read the stone with his good rolls and stopped playing with us saying he was being 'Railraoded' due to the fact that whole reason his halfling would join us in this endever, was to get more educated in arcan magic and was denide to do so. Mind you, this is from a players point of view.

So, to advoid "railroading" is to give better detail as to why a 'char' can't do somthing?

GeminiVeil
2011-01-07, 09:09 PM
To the player: I frequently have the same problem. What I consider to be a normal conversational voice, I am often told is too quiet. I find the voices many other people use normally to be extremely loud. You sort of just have to train yourself out of it. Try shouting - not loud shouting, but raise your voice a bit. It takes time to be comfortable with it, but it does work. Ask someone around you to tell you if it gets too loud.


*What?* :smallwink: Just havin' a spot of fun.

But seriously, this is great advice if you're having voice issues. I've got a player who just doesn't talk up enough, and then gets pissy cause I was "ignoring him". Dammit man, if you never SAY anything, how can I ignore you? Just learn to jump in sometimes and say something, and I'll give you a fair shake, like I do with anyone else.


Sounds like a party. Shoulda rolled with it, just for giggles.

To the issue of my voice. I wasn't going to post in this thread again just to see what everyone said, but I feel I should address this. There are three things that make me feel like I was ignored rather than not heard.
1) There was no ambiant noise in the house except for us. No radio on, no TV on. There was 1 person other than those playing in the house, and he was in his bedroom not making a sound. Everyone was speaking in normal conversation level.
2) I have been told before that my voice. . . carries. In the house of another player, he has quite a large house. When I would talk in a normal conversational tone, I was asked to be quiet from people upstairs in a soundstage with the door closed. (I would add, politely asked. :smallsmile:)
3) There was a player easily twice as far from the ST/DM as I was, speaking at the same volume as me, being heard just fine. When either of the other players talked, me and the player sitting next to me heard them fine at normal levels, yet when we talked at the same levels (and in one case, louder) we were 'not heard'. Yes, we. The player next to me was having the same issue I was on that count, apparently no one heard either of us.
I also wasn't going to mention the issue of intoxication out of respect. I don't even view that as much of an issue. At least, not as much of one as coming to the game with no layout for the mansion, having another player draw it out, (not me) saying it was correct, and then when we try to do something based on that design, we are told "That's not how the layout is."

true_shinken
2011-01-07, 09:40 PM
To address the spelling issuse.
I was unable to read untill I was 15 years of age. So my spelling is far from being normale levels of educational stander. I'm happy to be able to spell well enough for people to understand me.
Oh, I'm sorry for making jokes out of it, then. I sincerely apologize.

Emerald
2011-01-07, 11:33 PM
Oh, I'm sorry for making jokes out of it, then. I sincerely apologize.

It's okay, it not the first and I'm sure it's not the last.

true_shinken
2011-01-07, 11:44 PM
lots of stuff
Dude, you need to talk it out with your DM. Mistakes happen, but your DM came to the playground to understand what was wrong. She understands somethign went wrong and now she wants to get it right. Help her by explaining what you think went wrong.
Once I had a session were I neglected a player. I really did (for reasons other than the game) and I'm ashamed of it. We talked about it earlier, I apologized, the player apologized (for the ooc thing), we had a few beers and everything went fine after that. We even became closer friends after that; dude is gonna be one of my groomsmen, even.
So... just talk it out, that's my advice. You both seem to want this issue solved.

Claudius Maximus
2011-01-08, 01:39 AM
Interesting.To address the spelling issuse.
I was unable to read untill I was 15 years of age. So my spelling is far from being normale levels of educational stander. I'm happy to be able to spell well enough for people to understand me.

See, this is why I don't tend to give people a hard time for spelling.

Concerning the issue at hand, I think you need to sit down with your players and have an open discussion about what they expect from the game and how you can accommodate that as a GM. Here you have a player who has some complaints, and even if you don't consider them particularly legitimate the more important fact is that he does. It behooves you as the GM to attempt to address them, and to get everyone on the same page about their expectations from the game.

As for the player, chill out a bit and consider that the GM is probably trying her best to run the game, and has probably just made some honest mistakes if anything. I'm assuming you guys are friends so it's most likely best to assume good faith here, on both ends.

Douglas
2011-01-08, 03:13 AM
So, to advoid "railroading" is to give better detail as to why a 'char' can't do somthing?
That's a big part of it, yes. There are two major classic railroading tactics that many players will cry foul over: declaring a player's character fails without giving any indication of the reason for the failure (a bad roll is, of course, a self-evident reason), and introducing a character, force, situation, or plot device whose sole purpose appears to be forcing the party along a particular path and who is so powerful the party stands no chance of successfully resisting. Avoid these two things, and you should get a lot fewer complaints about railroading.

There's also railroading by dictating a PC's actions (PC: I do X; DM: no, you do Y; PC: WTF???), but that's so extreme that it rarely comes up.

Akal Saris
2011-01-08, 03:30 AM
I remember a Dork Tower strip from Dragon magazine where it was chocolate-covered extra-strong coffee beans that was the substance.

The DM in this case tended to narrate overexcitedly.

DM: YOU ARE IN A TRANQUIL GROVE. THE BIRDS ARE SINGING OVERHEAD AND THE RABBITS ARE HOPPING ABOUT A SMALL POOL OF PLACID WATER!!!!

PCs: AAAAHHHH!

I loved that strip :smallbiggrin:

GeminiVeil
2011-01-08, 10:30 AM
Dude, you need to talk it out with your DM. Mistakes happen, but your DM came to the playground to understand what was wrong. She understands somethign went wrong and now she wants to get it right. Help her by explaining what you think went wrong.
Once I had a session were I neglected a player. I really did (for reasons other than the game) and I'm ashamed of it. We talked about it earlier, I apologized, the player apologized (for the ooc thing), we had a few beers and everything went fine after that. We even became closer friends after that; dude is gonna be one of my groomsmen, even.
So... just talk it out, that's my advice. You both seem to want this issue solved.


See, this is why I don't tend to give people a hard time for spelling.

Concerning the issue at hand, I think you need to sit down with your players and have an open discussion about what they expect from the game and how you can accommodate that as a GM. Here you have a player who has some complaints, and even if you don't consider them particularly legitimate the more important fact is that he does. It behooves you as the GM to attempt to address them, and to get everyone on the same page about their expectations from the game.

As for the player, chill out a bit and consider that the GM is probably trying her best to run the game, and has probably just made some honest mistakes if anything. I'm assuming you guys are friends so it's most likely best to assume good faith here, on both ends.

true_shinken>> I would hope so. :smallsmile: She's my wife. I don't really hold any hard feelings towards her. This is a relatively minor thing. The thing is, I DID explain it to her, several times. She just sees my issues as rather trivial, when I believe they are sort of important for a game. If I have 0 information, I can hardly make a decision about what to do.
Claudius Maximus>> It's really not a big deal to me. I didn't come on here to state that I am the only possibility of being right. I just came on because, IMHO, there were a few details left out of the OP that needed clarified. I mean, she didn't even put the system. :) Which may be confusing when people say "Have Player roll Know:Arcana."

Gnaeus
2011-01-08, 12:30 PM
"Have Player roll Know:Arcana."

Have player roll Occult.

And I agree that the drinking probably didn't help. I vividly recall one frustrating game where we spend almost 2 hours trying to open a manhole cover, because it was the only way for the plot to advance and the DM was too drunk to describe the manhole cover in a way that we understood, and we were too drunk to figure out why we couldn't open it. (Is still angry that we didn't get more exp for the manhole cover. Under the circumstances it was like CR 10.)

GeminiVeil
2011-01-08, 12:35 PM
Have player roll Occult.

And I agree that the drinking probably didn't help. I vividly recall one frustrating game where we spend almost 2 hours trying to open a manhole cover, because it was the only way for the plot to advance and the DM was too drunk to describe the manhole cover in a way that we understood, and we were too drunk to figure out why we couldn't open it. (Is still angry that we didn't get more exp for the manhole cover. Under the circumstances it was like CR 10.)

LOL I like that. As I said in an earlier post, though, I did roll Int+Occult, got 3 successes, and got NO new information.

comicshorse
2011-01-08, 12:54 PM
LOL I like that. As I said in an earlier post, though, I did roll Int+Occult, got 3 successes, and got NO new information.

Maybe you needed 4 successes ?
Some things just aren't accomplishable on the fly. You need to do research or preparation or just gather more data before you can get anywhere.
( Though I grant you that does mean you're dealing with something pretty damn obscure)

Tavar
2011-01-08, 01:11 PM
And at that point, you should probably change your description, maybe giving some sort of clue. Like "you aren't sure, but you think you've seen something like this mentioned somewhere. Maybe some research would give the answer."

It's not quite the same, but I remember one of my first forays into DM'ing. The party was fighting a troll, and because of it's regeneration, I kept saying that the thing looked 'ragged'. They finally dropped it into unconsciousness, but to this day something looking 'ragged' is an inside joke in our circle.

GeminiVeil
2011-01-08, 02:04 PM
Maybe you needed 4 successes ?
Some things just aren't accomplishable on the fly. You need to do research or preparation or just gather more data before you can get anywhere.
( Though I grant you that does mean you're dealing with something pretty damn obscure)

In oWoD, 3 success, bare minimum, should have given at least some insights into why. Probably not the exact nature of the effect, but 'If you looked around the room more, you think you might discover what it is' seems like a fairly straight-forward way to make me interested in the room, rather than feeling like 'What you are doing screws everything up for me, so no.' Which she kind of admited 2 days later that was pretty much what she was doing.

1 success is listed as 'succeeding marginally', 3 is 'succeeding completely'.

Emerald
2011-01-08, 02:59 PM
true_shinken>> I would hope so. :smallsmile: She's my wife. I don't really hold any hard feelings towards her. This is a relatively minor thing. The thing is, I DID explain it to her, several times. She just sees my issues as rather trivial, when I believe they are sort of important for a game. If I have 0 information, I can hardly make a decision about what to do.
Claudius Maximus>> It's really not a big deal to me. I didn't come on here to state that I am the only possibility of being right. I just came on because, IMHO, there were a few details left out of the OP that needed clarified. I mean, she didn't even put the system. :) Which may be confusing when people say "Have Player roll Know:Arcana."

To GeminiVeil:
If I thought the issuse was just 'trivial' I would have not brought my problem here to be discused. And it is far from a 'minor thing' when you walk out in the middle of game and the game is made for 4 players.:smallsmile:

To me, this is just a minior problem with a very well put answer, more detail and less drinking. Another thing was, I didn't put a system in or descibe much, because that wasn't importent. What was important was what had happen to make you feel railroaded, and how to keep it from happening again. Though you may not have walked out in other campains, you have had fearce discustion that put the game on hold for some time because of lack of detail and railroading. Now I know what to do and plan to help others if I can with this new information.

But how can I get people to use there imagination when I lack detail? The problem that had happen didn't stop the others from looking about, and the room would be fine without spells. Even with all the windows broken and the house burnt to the ground would not have stopped the game. It would have made it harder for me to get them to their next goal, but it would have not stopped game.

And, yes, there were other factors that made you walk out, but I was addressing the railroading because it comes up much more than not being lissend to. Though, I do find it a factor in the railroading issuse, for I feel ingord more often then not and miss out on details because of it.