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View Full Version : DM restrictions for an Unusual Druid: advice?



graeylin
2011-01-07, 11:52 AM
i have a chance to draft up a 15th level druid in a rather unusual world. Looking for advice.

Givens:
No shapechanging allowed except Alter Self (no polymorph, wildshape, shangers, shifters, etc.)
No summoning spells (thus, no summon nature's allies)
Core PHB races only
Druid variant from UA allowed (monk/ranger substitution for wildshape)
I am totally fine playing a druid without wildshape... in fact, it is appealing to me, as i am not seeking power/breaking the system as much as fun concept/cool character.

Are any of the other Druid alternate classes better? I was thinking metal master, or storm king, or ??? maybe? Or is the UA alternate pretty solid, since wildshaping is out. I was thinking that battlefield control was the best role with back up healing (perhaps ask the DM to allow spontaneous heal for loss of spont. SNA).

Best race? human?

Suggestions for feat paths (given the above restrictions), cool ideas, any dips or PRC's?

graeylin
2011-01-07, 04:00 PM
wow.. off the first page without a comment.

WarKitty
2011-01-07, 04:14 PM
Even if you don't get free spontaneous healing, there's a feat in complete divine that allows you to gain it. Battlefield control is excellent for a druid - if your party isn't optimized, might be a bit too good.

Take a look at Lion of Talsid prestige class, if you don't mind a BoED class. It slows down wild shape progression in exchange for some handy abilities.

Dead_Jester
2011-01-07, 04:34 PM
You can still do some mean battlefield control, and your animal companion is still better then the fighter at it's own job, so you should still do ok (your probably still tier 1 in fact).

gbprime
2011-01-07, 05:56 PM
As previously mentioned, Spontaneous Healing. perhaps your DM will allow you to swap for free since your current spontaneous casting is not allowed in campaign. Otherwise it's worth a feat.

You could go for elemental damage casting. Druids qualify for a lot of the blasty reserve feats. And taking both Energy Substitution(Fire) and Searing Spell would turn any damage spell you do into fire damage that ignores fire resistance. (You can do the same thing with a level of Sanctified One of Kord, but a druid qualling for a PrC worshipping Kord is a stretch.)

You also have a lot of battlefield control spells available. If you can't summon and you can spontaneously heal, then you should concentrate on those spells if you're not a druid-blaster as above.

Question... how are you for stats? If you can support a second high stat and +4 stat item, you could consider Mystic Wanderer PrC (Magic of Faerun). The stuff they get at each level is hit or miss (brew potion and gem magic are nice), but at 1st level they get to add CHA to AC if unarmored (which you will be).

Another PrC to consider might be Holt Warden (Complete Champion).

If your DM allows early entry for dual casting, and the elemental damage caster appeals to you, you might try this... Wu Jen 1 / Druid 3 / Mystic Theurge 4 / Arcane Hierophant 10 / Mystic Theurge 5-6 ... you end up with casting as Druid 19 / Wu Jen 17. (You could do wizard instead, but wu jen fits the elemental theme.)

riddles
2011-01-07, 08:12 PM
Monk/druid going into sacred fist? Use the bite of ... line of spells, or the staff enhancing spells to boost your combat prowess and still have animal companion/battlefield control goodies

dextercorvia
2011-01-07, 10:10 PM
Have you considered going into Beastmaster and being the buffer for your team of beatsticks? There is that feat that increases your effective druid level for AC by 3 (Natural Bond?), so even the Beastmaster's second tier AC would be as tough as a usual AC. There is also the Shapeshifter Variant in PHBII which isn't as powerful as Wildshape.

woodenbandman
2011-01-07, 10:22 PM
Well you can pretty much just look at a druid spell selection guide and you'll be fine. I'd definitely decide if you're gonna be a buffy druid or a hitty druid, and plan accordingly.

Hawk7915
2011-01-07, 10:56 PM
Isn't there a variant in PH2 that lets a druid trade spontaneous summon spells to be able to throw out mass lesser vigor in combat? I'm pretty sure there is, although it's often missed since PH2 also has the shapechange nerf variant is on the following page.

It's obviously worse than getting spontaneous cure spells, but it's a printed variant and since you can't summon anyways you lose nothing. I almost said "or is it worse?" but the duration is rounds/spell level lost if I remember correctly, so it's a pretty weak except in the hugest of parties. House ruling cure spells as a cleric would be way better.

Human is definitely still the best race. Dwarf is probably your second best choice. Most small races are much worse without shape-shifting, especially if you want to be a "Gishy" druid.

Coidzor
2011-01-07, 11:22 PM
No shapechanging allowed except Alter Self (no polymorph, wildshape, shangers, shifters, etc.)
No summoning spells (thus, no summon nature's allies)
Core PHB races only
Druid variant from UA allowed (monk/ranger substitution for wildshape)
I am totally fine playing a druid without wildshape... in fact, it is appealing to me, as i am not seeking power/breaking the system as much as fun concept/cool character.

Well, let's see, what do you still have blasting, battlefield control, and a pet fighter. You lost your ability to spontaneously cast in order to qualify for certain PrCs, but either those are out due to being wildshaping or summoning schtick classes or the DM needs to adapt the requirements to the system changes, but there's some feats you can take to alleviate that, and you now get a feat at 6th level unlike regular druids.

So you still have some advantages over a Spirit Shaman, instead of having no reason to be a druid rather than a spirit shaman.

As always, human is probably your best bet. Of PHB races, there's not that many that compete well with human for the druid schtick, and despite the extra feat, you're still likely to want more. The two smaller races have an advantage in more levels at which they could ride their animal companion, but that's a bit moot with the options a level 15 druid has for animal companion.

I'd recommend, though, a single level of Beastmaster and/or the feat Natural Bond if you can spare a caster level and a feat to giving you an animal companion of Druid Level + 7. Let's see, Druid 14/Beastmaster 1 would have an AC of a 21st level druid, so at ECL 17 if all levels taken advance animal companion, then you'd have the animal companion benefits for Druid 23 (basically, a couple extra HD and an increase in stats and tricks following the progression mapped out in the base class's pre-epic table. And it's not even really risking being disruptive as you're already in high level play and no new creatures become available (and you'll likely be using a smaller form of Animal Companion than the top tier ones anyway, so they could use the boost)

Since if you don't have wildshaping or summoning to focus on, that leaves your direct combat applications, utility, and pet fighter to receive your attention...

Your utility I'm blanking out on, other than maybe spontaneous healing or obtaining a domain and getting spontaneous domain casting. Other than the obligatory magical items.

Your direct combat applications, well, energy substitution + searing spell + the druids' blasty spells probably takes care of that in a big way.

There are some feats you can take to improve your animal companion beyond natural bond, but most of the ones I can think of offhand require either multiclassing or the use of Dragon material or both. And I still haven't found a way to get into a paladin variant that gets a special mount as a druid. If non-paladin special mounts are OK with your DM to work with it, Devoted Tracker is nifty, though the multiclassing will hurt your spellcasting beyond a small dip unless there's a PrC that just fits like a glove that's slipping my mind. And there might be.


Are any of the other Druid alternate classes better? I was thinking metal master, or storm king, or ??? maybe? Or is the UA alternate pretty solid, since wildshaping is out.

Getting your casting stat to AC that applies to touch AC is always nice. Probably not quite as good as getting armor special properties, since you don't have to worry about losing armor properties or having to spring for wilding clasps and beastform armor.


I was thinking that battlefield control was the best role with back up healing (perhaps ask the DM to allow spontaneous heal for loss of spont. SNA).

Something to replace the loss of spontaneous SNA would be good, yes, though back up healing is already something druids have available, though, really, you should be relying on a wand of either cure or vigor for out of combat healing more than healing in combat anyway. Battlefield control is generally the most effective use of one's resources, allowing one's enemies to be dispatched under the most favorable of circumstances and minimizing permanent resource expenditure.


Suggestions for feat paths (given the above restrictions), cool ideas, any dips or PRC's?

Beastmaster 1 + Natural bond as I mentioned... Or using Arcane Hierophant (using precocious apprentice to qualify on the arcane side) in order to get additional utility/capabilities out of your animal companion as well as some arcane utility magic.

If you're up for something a bit more exotic you can work it into a Fochlucan Lyrist build, especially if you have access to materials that make qualifying for the class more synergistic. Especially with Human + the Able Learner feat. Which would also open up some other avenues as well.

graeylin
2011-01-07, 11:40 PM
thanks guys, for all the help, ideas and suggestions..

now i gotta do some serious research on it, and get to work!

faceroll
2011-01-07, 11:44 PM
your animal companion is still better then the fighter at it's own job

Marginally true in maybe the first 3 levels. And only if it's vanilla fighter20 with only PHB feats and you abuse Natural Bond, warbeast, and repick the animal feats. Otherwise, a glaive wielding enlarged melee build with dungeoncrasher and knockdown will destroy anything that gets close and is within one size category of him. Throw in knockback for added hilarity.

Runestar
2011-01-08, 07:11 AM
I did a thread a while back, and came to the conclusion that druid spells are pretty good at blasting with battlefield control tacked on as a secondary effect. Many of the good spells can be found in frostburn and spell compendium. :smallsmile:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=180182

Dead_Jester
2011-01-08, 07:46 AM
Marginally true in maybe the first 3 levels. And only if it's vanilla fighter20 with only PHB feats and you abuse Natural Bond, warbeast, and repick the animal feats. Otherwise, a glaive wielding enlarged melee build with dungeoncrasher and knockdown will destroy anything that gets close and is within one size category of him. Throw in knockback for added hilarity.

Actually, A Natural Growthed Fleshraker with Venomfire and just picking good feats for the rest of it's progression (I don't know, the multiattack series, higher poison DC, etc) and some actual equipment (you trained it for war, didn't you?) and this thing will kill anything within it's huge movement distance and then grapple it and trip it just for fun.