OOTS #767 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[Saph]

Oh dear. Haley's found a mechanic to abuse. :smalltongue:

[Revanmal]

Somehow, I doubt Haley really needed the Glibness potion to fool Elan into thinking those things. His sense motive is most likely abysmal.

[Mastikator]

Potion of Glibness = Godmode. :smallbiggrin:

[Mordaenor]

Hooray for Broken Role-playing Mechanics!!

[Grumpy-Mcfart]

great comic, I love the last panel

[Shale]

And that's why min-maxing is hilarious when you make them role-play it out.

[G-Man Graves]

Oh, Haley, I don't care that the reason you were stealing all that gold was two dimensional greed, you're back on the list of characters I like. :smallsmile:

[silvadel]

Yep phither of glibness plus a bluff the level haley has = a license to abuse -- it is like a constantly active suggestion spell.

[HandofShadows]

Haley just went to a new level of awesome. :smallcool:

[Gargulec]

The last panel is cute. Crowning Moment of Heartwarming-level cute.

[Imperial Psycho]

Bluff: Once you have enough, who needs any other abilities?

Also, Panel 5, 'contratdicts', should be contradicts

[OldFart]

I suppose is was either that or Diplomacy, and the latter would be beating a dead horse.

Prediction for next strip *
Wizard to guard #5: "But you don't need a polymorph spell!"
Guard #5: "Wallaby darned!"

*not really

[hamishspence]

Yup. The first book had an example of Diplomacy check not being roleplayed out, in the introduction:

Goblin prisoner: "Feel...my opinions...inexplicably...changing!"

This reminds me a little of that- only better.

[King of Nowhere]

Yeah, the manuals say that there are some things that cannot be done, no mater how high you roll. And the master must judge this kind of things.

There's a reason for that, you know.

[Endon the White]

Another Great Strip!

[Arbitrarity]

Yeah, the manuals say that there are some things that cannot be done, no mater how high you roll. And the master must judge this kind of things.

There's a reason for that, you know.

Eh. Epic use of Bluff duplicates Suggestion. I'm pretty sure Suggestion covers telling people they are Wallabies and that you aren't there.

[Fri]

Okay, I actually laughed out loud at the yellow footed rock wallaby part.

[HalfTangible]

Eh...

heheh...

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHGRK!

*falls into a coma*

[tomaO2]

Don't like this update. I don't care how high your bluff is, you can't just say whatever you want and people will believe you. It's a skill, not a spell.

However, I did like the philter Potion of Glibness bit.

For people that don't know it was called a philter in 2e but in 3e it was changed to potion. Good D&D joke.

[brionl]

As a GM I'd probably allow most of those, except the "You can't see us" and the Wallaby one.

[RndmNumGen]

Ah, the brokenness of social skills.


Don't like this update. I don't care how high your bluff is, you can't just say whatever you want and people will believe you. It's a skill, not a spell.


Actually, you can. As written, you can pull of insane shenanigans if you get your diplomacy/bluff/intimidate high enough, such as convincing those goblins who were trying to kill you 10 minutes ago to take an arrow for you, and to make the king himself believe that he's an imposter and that you are really the king. That's why many DMs I know use a houserule that caps the effectiveness of such things, or at a minimum increases the time it takes to pull it off (a month of manipulating someone instead of 10-minutes of fast talking to drastically change someone's attitude, for example).

[Mecharious]

I like how her speech bubble changed to reflect her new powers :smalltongue:

[wzeller]

"Crap, how am I going to pay my mortgage?"

That one had me literally laughing out loud.

Great strip!

w

[HUMVEE Driver]

First of all, it's about time!

Great page!

[Leliel]

And thus, the main flaw of the Evil Overlord List.

Heroes cheat.

[Guchalez]

Great comic as always Titan!
With the right bluff you can alter reality!

[RebelRogue]

IIRC, Glibness is for one bluff check only, but still a mighty good comic :smallsmile:

[MoonCat]

The wallaby guard is hopping! How long will the potion last?

[Vercon]

Fantastic. Forgot how much I miss my OOTS fix in the afternoon.

[Shale]

IIRC, Glibness is for one bluff check only, but still a mighty good comic :smallsmile:

Haley bluffed it into lasting longer.

[Doug Lampert]

Bluff: Once you have enough, who needs any other abilities?

But with Diplomacy the guy with massive bluff is totally loyal to you.

Unless of course for some reason he doesn't think you have a common language.

[NerfTW]

That was such a fantastic followup to the "guards aren't stupid enough to fall for that line" strip. :smallbiggrin:

[Scarlet Knight]

I suppose is was either that or Diplomacy, and the latter would be beating a dead horse.

Prediction for next strip *
Wizard to guard #5: "But you don't need a polymorph spell!"
Guard #5: "Wallaby darned!"

*not really

Grooooooan! *takes pun damage* :smallwink:

[MoonCat]

That was such a fantastic followup to the "guards aren't stupid enough to fall for that line" strip. :smallbiggrin:
Exactly. And Rich fit in a DnD joke.
Edit: And I just noticed, the color of lies is orange. Look at Haley.

[Orzel]

Haley you did killl them.
All those guards are going to be fired and executed.

Heartless!

Maybe not the rock wallaby, he's just gonna pay money for a fake spell if the bluff doesn't wear off fast enough.

[Megaduck]

http://www.llbbl.com/data/RPG-motivational/images/bluff.jpg

[faustin]

For some reason it´s bringing me memories of The Twelve Tasks of Asterix: "You are a wild boar, you are a wild boar, you are a wild boar...." :smallbiggrin:

Just think in what Haley could have done having that potion before: "Roy, you are not really dead; your fall from Xykon´s zombie dragon left you only with -5 points. Wake up""

BY the way, am I the only one who thinks that Rich read the latest post about Haley´s ineffectiveness with bluffs or the "why are you running away from the mooks"? :smallconfused:

[The MunchKING]

The last panel is cute. Crowning Moment of Heartwarming-level cute.

Oh gawd...


*laughs*

She is horrible! What an icorrigable rouge.

*laughs some more*

[Squark]

AWESOME!

Seriously, Rich, thank you for this. What a perfect way to pull me out of a bad mood.

[MammonAzrael]

Huzzah, lying can solve all your problems, as long as you're good enough at it!

I'm wondering if this is just a hilarious joke on the loose mechanics of Bluff, or if everyone will be coming to their senses in a strip or two and will come back to bite our heroes in the butt.

[Fayd]

Ah, excellent. I liked some of the subtle touches, like the orange text for the glibness.

[MoonCat]

Elan is still wearing his sneaky boots!
Except for in panels 5 and 7 for some reason.

[rewinn]

Oh gawd...

*laughs*

She is horrible! What an icorrigable rouge.

*laughs some more*
Yeah, but she genuinely loves Elan, as the last panels prove.

They're on a mission, things are risky but she takes a moment to clear up a few things that have been bothering him since the start of the strip.

She'll lie to make him happy. Definitely CG!

[Yuki Akuma]

Don't like this update. I don't care how high your bluff is, you can't just say whatever you want and people will believe you. It's a skill, not a spell.

However, I did like the philter Potion of Glibness bit.

For people that don't know it was called a philter in 2e but in 3e it was changed to potion. Good D&D joke.

Actually, if you can hit a DC 50 Bluff check or so, you can duplicate Suggestion.

Other ludicrous uses of skills include using Balance to walk on clouds, Sense Motive to determine someone's alignment, and Escape Artist to squeeze through spaces smaller than your head.

[pwykersotz]

Anyone notice that Elan randomly (and instantly) changes back to his old boots for two panels?

[Conuly]

Yeah, the manuals say that there are some things that cannot be done, no mater how high you roll. And the master must judge this kind of things.

And it looks like he (Rich) just did. Is this any worse than using a lightning bolt as a sonic attack? (No, is it? I don't know.)

[MoonCat]

Anyone notice that Elan randomly (and instantly) changes back to his old boots for two panels?
It looks like Rich forgot and drew him normally. I only saw the sneaky boots, so good catch! Does Rich fix mistakes in his artwork if someone points it out?

[Swordpriest]

Meh, not the best one I've seen for a while. I like the last frame -- a lot :smallsmile: -- but the rest seems pretty contrived to me. Oh well, they've had a lot of tough breaks lately, they were due one minor triumph. :smallwink:

[Gandariel]

Cr, how am i gonna pay my mortage now? Great, heh

[grimbold]

i wonder how many people had to go back to see elans question from the last strip. I sure did.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

The wallaby guard is hopping! How long will the potion last?
I don't think it matters...since the Diplomacy check was already made, its effects are independent of the potion. Unless he runs into Haley later, with reasons to doubt his wallaby-ness, and she fails to Bluff him to keep it going, he'll still believe he's a wallaby.

[MoonCat]

I think Haley looks like a goddess in Panel 5, surrounded by her aura of Glibness (that matches her color scheme), her pose, the bottle in her other hand...
That had to be intentional, no person could draw something so awesome like that without meaning to, right? Guys?

*hears some background crickets*

[Morquard]

Actually, if you can hit a DC 50 Bluff check or so, you can duplicate Suggestion.
I'm not so sure about that. In the SRD it says "Instill Suggestion on Target" is a +50 modifier, not a DC 50, thats a difference.
Bluff itself has DCs set for "believability".
For example "The bluff is way out there, almost too incredible to consider" is DC 20.

"You can't see us" or "You're a wallaby" I would definitely count as that, so that would make the DC 70 I would say.
I'm not sure Haley can beat something like that on a regular basis.

"You're fired" or her "That was just a test" is more likely "hard to believe" and DC 10. I think that's well within her possibilities with the potion.

Well its of course possible it was simply a "normal" bluff check, with a very high DC (but still low for Haley's now godlike Bluff score), but not sure they'd react like that. "almost too incredible" still isn't an "anything is possible"

[SandroTheMaster]

Damn, this had the chance to be awesome but end up being underwhelming for the sake of an in-joke.

High bluff doesn't mean people are more likely to believe you, it means you're able to come up with more convincing ways to lie. But since in the table the players are just going to spout stuff like "Look! A three-headed monkey" for a feint and succeed anyway it doesn't really translate like that in the game.

I think it'd be more awesome if she really got the insight to convince those guards of what she says through heightened guile, not mechanics alone.

[Morquard]

I don't think it matters...since the Diplomacy check was already made, its effects are independent of the potion. Unless he runs into Haley later, with reasons to doubt his wallaby-ness, and she fails to Bluff him to keep it going, he'll still believe he's a wallaby.
Actually it does matter.

From the Epic rules for Bluff (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/skills.htm#bluff):
This is identical to the effect of the suggestion spell, except that it is nonmagical and lasts for only 10 minutes. It can be sensed as if it were an enchantment effect (Sense Motive DC 25).

So yeah, this could very well come to bite them in the ass when they take too long inside.

[Calmness]

I think Haley looks like a goddess in Panel 5, surrounded by her aura of Glibness (that matches her color scheme), her pose, the bottle in her other hand...
That had to be intentional, no person could draw something so awesome like that without meaning to, right? Guys?

*hears some background crickets*
She looks just like Thor in the poster here (http://www.giantitp.com/Images/PostersTogetherBig.jpg). Nice catch.

[Porthos]

High bluff doesn't mean people are more likely to believe you, it means you're able to come up with more convincing ways to lie.

Actually, as pointed out be several people in the thread, it does. :smallsmile: Once you start getting into the Epic Range of Bluff, ri-donk-ulous things can happen.

So in this case, Rich (I presume) was poking fun at the absurdity of some of the Epic Rules.

While we are a long ways away from the Dungeon of Dorukan days, this strip still likes to mock celebrate the rules of DnD from time to time. :smallwink:

[Sengoku]

Santa exists, I knew it! (referring to the strip's title)

For the rest...lol, I like the Giant making fun of the epic rules system...next time we'll see the proverbial epic monk using Jump to travel to another planet :smallbiggrin:

[Jace Beleren]

This is why I max out my sense motive ASAP. We had a bluffer on our team once. And he was the DM's best friend.

Not a good campaign treasure wise for me. :smallyuk:

[Zexion]

Don't like this update. I don't care how high your bluff is, you can't just say whatever you want and people will believe you. It's a skill, not a spell.
I am pretty sure that epic use of Bluff duplicates suggestion. You can use suggestion to convince someone that you are not there, therefore you can use epic Bluff to convince someone that you are not there.

And awesome comic, Rich! :smallbiggrin:

[Commander672]

Makes you wonder just how high her rolls were to begin with.

I bet her last two were natural 1's.

[CoffeeIncluded]

*Starts gasping from laughter* Also, the last panel made me smile.

[MoonCat]

A funny thing to see in the next few panels would be Haley's speech bubbles getting lighter and lighter until they turn white ( originally typed wight, I'm thinking too much about DnD :smallredface: ).

[Thalnawr]

Perhaps seeing how effective that potion was will make Elan trade one of his third level spells for Glibness... Actually, probably not, as that's not really his thing anyhow.

[Barstro]

:haley: "Behold the power of lying! You can pretty much alter reality..."

More nods to 1984. Or just a coincidence.

[JonestheSpy]

I am pretty sure that epic use of Bluff duplicates suggestion. You can use suggestion to convince someone that you are not there, therefore you can use epic Bluff to convince someone that you are not there.


You know, I rather think the strip is once again satirizing silly rule conventions and abuse of same, rather than being written with the attitude of "The Rules allow it, therefore it's completely legitimate", epic rules or no.

[pendell]

Hilarious!

Even so, I'm kind of concerned that at some point Haley is going to discover lying has a down side. Fortunately, this isn't a children's cartoon, so I trust the Giant not to do so in an anvilicious way, complete with three minute after-strip spot as the characters firmly nail the moral in to the viewer's head, in case they missed it.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Hardcore]

It had no effect whatsoever on Elan. He would have believed Haley anyway.

[Crisis21]

Most awesome use of a deux-ex-machina plot device ever.

[Kal Ironfresh]

Does anyone else think that the guards comment in the 7th panel is foreshadowing?

[CelestialMagpie]

Haley's answer to Elan's last question from the last panel - that was a reference to Elan, wasn't it? Because she loves him, she'll lie about his more annoying traits? Guess that's pretty sweet of her...

Overall, I liked this strip - but I enjoy randomness sometimes, and the guard's reaction to "you're a wallaby" was pretty funny :smallsmile:

[Zeful]

You know, I rather think the strip is once again satirizing silly rule conventions and abuse of same, rather than being written with the attitude of "The Rules allow it, therefore it's completely legitimate", epic rules or no.

Actually I think it's satirizing players who use it in ridiculous fashion, the first bluff was entirely reasonable from the perspective of conflict resolution if out there. The rest of them is how players actually seem to believe the ability works rather than it's reality. Bluff can't actually do any of that reliably, and Glibness can't do any of that at all, yet whenever it comes up, people will go so far as to say that Glibness and a high bluff can make you convince anyone of anything.

[TinselCat]

Hmmm...my first thought if I was told I was a wallaby would be "Guess I shouldn't have fallen asleep on guard duty." Secondly would come: "What do I eat?"

And I wonder when the potion will wear off. Probably at some unexpected moment - just before a good bluff would save them.

[Eloel]

Wow, poking fun at misinterpreted rules, or inexistant rules?
As someone stated, she needs to make a DC 70 + enemy's sense motive check Bluff to instill a suggestion.
Even then, Suggestion states

You influence the actions of the target creature by suggesting a course of activity (limited to a sentence or two).
"You are a wallaby", while hilarious, is not a course of activity. Nor is "you don't see us".

[Blas_de_Lezo]

Yeah, social skills are broken, ¿and what? If I want to build a half elf specialized in diplomacy enchantations via skills & feats, it's my choice. I'm sure my DM will find a situation that I can't diplomacy out.

Haley is using bluff checks enhaced by potions for cuasi-spell bluffing, yes, ¿and what? We're here in a system that allows breaking the laws of nature, flying, shooting bolts of lighting, jumping and running higher and faster than in the olympics, intimidating someone 10 times bigger than you, and getting more intelligent and attractive when old. What if it's possible to bluff into madness?

And you forget the most important thing: OotS is making fun of aabsurd 3.5 rules since strip 001. :smalltongue:

EDIT: BTW,thank you Giant! :smallbiggrin:

[Woodsman]

Man, no "These aren't the droids you're looking for" reference?

Eh, there were plenty of Star Wars gags earlier. :smalltongue:

[PsychedelicBard]

Just wait until she rolls a 1...

[hamishspence]

Skill checks don't auto-fail on a 1, as far as I recall.

[tiercel]

Ah glibness, is there anything you *can't* do?

After all the DC modifiers for Bluff say:

The bluff is way out there, almost too incredible to consider. +20

And glibness gives +30.....

Whether that actually covers all of Haley's uses of the effect so far isn't the point, this is just awesomely fun. (I mean, if glibness really worked like this all the time, why would you ever solve any problem worth more than 1050gp in any other fashion? Heck, if you're a bard or a beguiler you wouldn't need to cast anything else once you got to 3rd level spells.)

Definitely a case of "OK, DM, time for you to rule what can and can't be done," and clearly Haley's DM is ruling on the side of hilarity right now.

[PsychedelicBard]

Skill checks don't auto-fail on a 1, as far as I recall.

Right, my mistake.

[hamishspence]

Still- she might run into someone with a high enough Sense Motive- that her Bluff check, even with the enhancement, is not high enough (if she rolls low).

[martianmister]

Is there any reasonable reason for Haley's sudden pacifism?

[TimelordSimone]

"Maybe we can get palace duty."
"Yeah, nothing ever happens there."

Odds on something happening at the palace?
No? Just me?

[Anitar]

Still- she might run into someone with a high enough Sense Motive- that her Bluff check, even with the enhancement, is not high enough (if she rolls low).

*cough*Tarquin*cough*

[hamishspence]

If he's returned to the prison, that would be a problem.

Also- in the strip "contradicts" has been spelled with an extra t as "contratdicts"- maybe the Giant will change it? or maybe just change it in the book.

[Dr.Epic]

How much did that potion cost? Also, wouldn't have been better to try and use that on Tarquin? I don't, convince him to stop the tyranny.

[TimelordSimone]

Probably, but this is funnier.

(And he probably has a much better Sense Motive than these guards.)

[Nimrod's Son]

Does anyone else think that the guards comment in the 7th panel is foreshadowing?


"Maybe we can get palace duty."
"Yeah, nothing ever happens there."

Odds on something happening at the palace?
No? Just me?
I just assumed it was there because, ironically, Haley killed a bunch of palace guards but is going all-out to spare these ones.

[Elfey]

Haha, played a shadowrun game over the weekend as a face. An elf with maxed out stats let me convince the guards to hand me their guns as part of the inspection after berating them for attempting to capture me.

[TimelordSimone]

I just assumed it was there because, ironically, Haley killed a bunch of palace guards but is going all-out to spare these ones.

Or that. :smallredface:

[Morquard]

After all the DC modifiers for Bluff say:

And glibness gives +30.....
The bluff skill sets the base DC, which is 20, yes. But to imitate the suggestion spell as of epic rules it adds +50 to the DC, which turns it into a DC 70 check.
Glibness gives +30. Haley is around level 15ish, mabye 17 at most, so her max rank is around 20.
She probably has +3 or something from her charisma (I figure her primary stat is dex, so cha at 16 would be good already).
Maybe she has a Circlet of Persuation for another +3, and MAYBE a Cloak of Charisma +4 (however I figure she probably has Cloak of Resistance rather, or no cloak at all)
So under very good circumstances, that would give her a 30 base skill in bluff, even with the cloak. Less without, or without the Circlet.

So even with the potion she still has to roll a 10 to make the suggestion work, that's not high enough to work every time. I don't think it gets opposed by Sense Motive then, at least Sense Motive won't raise the DC.

So yeah, sure a DC 20 bluff check she can beat, but that won't achive those effects. The suggestion application of it could work though, but even for Haley it wouldn't all the time on those "out there" bluffs.

Some of the easier ones, the ones she uses in the beginning of the stip would only be a base DC of 10 or maybe even just 5, even with the added +50 it is possible for her to have a high enough rank in it to make that DC most of the time.

[Morquard]

Still- she might run into someone with a high enough Sense Motive- that her Bluff check, even with the enhancement, is not high enough (if she rolls low).
How many people with a Sense Motive skill in the 40s or 50s do you actually know? :)

[Dr.Epic]

Probably, but this is funnier.

(And he probably has a much better Sense Motive than these guards.)

Better than Haley's bonus to bluff plus 30? I mean, for a sense motive like that, he'd have to have certain feats/abilities and be epic level.

[hamishspence]

But the penalty for "bluff that is so out there it's nearly impossible to believe" might help to counter the glibness potion.

Plus- she might make a Bluff to achieve the Suggestion effect- and fail to achieve that.

Still- Tarquin seems like the only likely candidate.

[Acero]

Can Elan Disguise others?

If so, turning Haley into Tarquin while the potion is active might possibly help. would make an interesting scene when they find Ian.

Haley: Ian!
Ian: you! *throws feces*
Haley: Ugh! I'm your daughter!

[Blaznak]

Well, that was interesting! You gotta love that Bluff skill. Is there ANYTHING it can't do?

[Burner28]

Nice one:smallwink:

[Dr.Epic]

But the penalty for "bluff that is so out there it's nearly impossible to believe" might help to counter the glibness potion.

Plus- she might make a Bluff to achieve the Suggestion effect- and fail to achieve that.

Still- Tarquin seems like the only likely candidate.

Looks at some of the bluffs she did on those guards and tell me that those aren't next to impossible to believe:

"You don't hear or see us."

"You're actually a yellow-footed rock wallaby."

Yeah, if convincing someone you don't exist and they're a member of another species isn't the same as suggestion I don't know what is. Besides, she only has to convince Tarquin what he's doing is wrong: "Tarquin, it's cruel and beneath you to subject these people to constant slaughter at war. Put yourself in their place and imagine what it's like to see everyone you care about die?" Something like that.

[SGNenets]

The bluff skill sets the base DC, which is 20, yes. But to imitate the suggestion spell as of epic rules it adds +50 to the DC, which turns it into a DC 70 check...
I think what he meant was that you don't need to get up to the suggestion effect, just up to "the bluff is almost too incredible to consider." Haley didn't set out a course of action for any of the guards, she just bluffed them into believing incredible stuffs. Hence, +20 to DC.

Of course, this strip was in the end just making fun of bluff-checks (or any usage of social skills, for that matter) that are not properly role-played and just turn into number-crunching, and I frankly found it hilarious.

And to those saying even Tarquin cannot roll Sense Motive high enough, I'm pretty sure someone as crafty as him have already prepared magical defenses against Mind Rape.

[brionl]

Looks at some of the bluffs she did on those guards and tell me that those aren't next to impossible to believe:

"You don't hear or see us."


You could probably make that work if they worded it a little differently, i.e.
"We're inspecting your normal routines, so just pretend like we're not here and carry on with what you were doing. And don't mention us to the other guards, we want to suprise them too."

But that wouldn't have been as funny. :smallbiggrin:

[Burner28]

Hilarious!

Even so, I'm kind of concerned that at some point Haley is going to discover lying has a down side. Fortunately, this isn't a children's cartoon, so I trust the Giant not to do so in an anvilicious way, complete with three minute after-strip spot as the characters firmly nail the moral in to the viewer's head, in case they missed it.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

I think you are taking this a bit tooo serious as this entire thing is portrayed in a very humourous way(and this is coming from soeone who in real life does think lying is always wrong:smallwink:). After all, Haley is a grown adult who ispretty skilled at what she is doing and so will not suffer consequences that easily. Still, she could get carried away though so you might have a point.

[Dr.Epic]

And to those saying even Tarquin cannot roll Sense Motive high enough, I'm pretty sure someone as crafty as him have already prepared magical defenses against Mind Rape.

How? Bluff isn't magical so it can't be blocked by something that protects you from magical mind effects.

[PsychedelicBard]

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't the +70 for this situation add to the target's roll and Sense Motive bonuses? In that case, it would take a roll of 11 or more to see through her lie, which isn't that hard, and that's assuming the target doesn't have any ranks in sense motive.

To sum up: IF the above is true, it would be easily avoidable by Tarquin, specially if he has some ranks in sense motive.

[GreenMuffin]

Looks at some of the bluffs she did on those guards and tell me that those aren't next to impossible to believe:

"You don't hear or see us."

"You're actually a yellow-footed rock wallaby."

It's just comedy. The Rule Of Funny (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RuleOfFunny) applies here. Remember, it is a comedy strip. Just because it also has plot doesn't mean it has to be realistic.

[Kelvara]

And this is why I ban glibness in my games. :smallwink:

[snikrept]

Now in the next comic V is going to be researching how to gate in a solar....

[elonin]

We don't know that the bluff worked. Are we trusting that Elan came up with an epic potion and didn't get cheated?

[Kareasint]

Not sure why the Epic Bluff suggestion is being used in calculations here. Especially since Haley is not epic level.

Looking at the Bluff skill itself, it states:


A successful Bluff check indicates that the target reacts as you wish, at least for a short time (usually 1 round or less) or believes something that you want it to believe. Bluff, however, is not a suggestion spell.

She was simply doing an opposed check vs the guards' Sense Motive. They probably do not have that many ranks and low modifiers.

Morquard, don't forget the Persuasive Feat (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#persuasive). It would add another +2 to a bluff check.

[aart lover]

first: that was awesomely epic funny! with a high enough bluff check you can alter reality! lol rofl XD. love the last panel.
second: Giant, are you trying to wean your readers off of frequent updates by making strips less often?

[MoonCat]

My favorite panel was #5, it had an awesome Haley pose, the lie I hoped she'd make, and Elan wearing the wrong shoes. :smallbiggrin:

[KillItWithFire]

Is it just me or is there something on Haley's middle finger in the 4th panel? I'm not crazy right? Anyone know what that is?

[PsychedelicBard]

Is it just me or is there something on Haley's middle finger in the 4th panel? I'm not crazy right? Anyone know what that is?

Looks like the potion's cork to me.

[MoonCat]

Is it just me or is there something on Haley's middle finger in the 4th panel? I'm not crazy right? Anyone know what that is?

It looks like cellotape... But I'm pretty sure that's the cork. It's the right shape and color, just too small, so it looks transparent.

Edit: NINJAS!!!!!!!!

[TheMeMan]

Not sure why the Epic Bluff suggestion is being used in calculations here. Especially since Haley is not epic level.

Looking at the Bluff skill itself, it states:



She was simply doing an opposed check vs the guards' Sense Motive. They probably do not have that many ranks and low modifiers.

Morquard, don't forget the Persuasive Feat (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#persuasive). It would add another +2 to a bluff check.

Also, Skill Focus. another +3, bringing the total to 65.

[xyzchyx]

Uh.... cute, but nope. Bluff and Sense Motive can (and usually should) have circumstantial modifiers applied to them, depending on what was actually being said. Owing to the fact that there is no limit on the size of these circumstantial modifiers, they could easily outweigh the effects of the potion, as well as Haley's own bluffing skill.

Although her first bluff was passable, IMO.... I see most of the other ones as being far enough removed from reality that they should have failed outright. Such blatantly obvious lies would, in turn, have to face a significant circumstantial bonus to the opposing Sense Motive check, and even with the +30 bonus on top of Haley's "bazillion points in Bluff" should have still resulted in a failed bluff attempt.

Just IMO

[Belkar is back]

Whats stopping them from "waltzing right in"?:smalleek:

[The Pilgrim]

Deus Ex Machina: Best served cool!

[DougTheHead]

Ah, the brokenness of social skills.



Actually, you can. As written, you can pull of insane shenanigans if you get your diplomacy/bluff/intimidate high enough, such as convincing those goblins who were trying to kill you 10 minutes ago to take an arrow for you, and to make the king himself believe that he's an imposter and that you are really the king. That's why many DMs I know use a houserule that caps the effectiveness of such things, or at a minimum increases the time it takes to pull it off (a month of manipulating someone instead of 10-minutes of fast talking to drastically change someone's attitude, for example).
So DMs spend time capping the abilities of low-tier rouges and bards, but still let wizards and CoDzillas warp reality at their whim?

[One Skunk Todd]

Re: Elan's boots. The change/mistake is not entirely random. When he's facing the left edge of the panel the boots are the wrong color. When he's facing right the boots look elveny. Maybe an artifact of how Rich draws the strip?

[Shalist]

I don't care how high your bluff is, you can't just say whatever you want and people will believe you.


*drinks an e-philter of Glibness*

Yes you can.

[Cerlis]

well actually in the epic levels handbook (or maybe players) it explains how you can do supernatural things when your check gets to 50s-100s. Like i think using balance to walk on water is a 70 balance check. I think using suggestion with bluff is dc 50 or so.

[Scutilla]

*drinks an e-philter of Glibness*

Yes you can.
I wish I had one of those for Internet arguments.

[Psyren]

But with Diplomacy the guy with massive bluff is totally loyal to you.

Bluff him into thinking he already Diplomancered you.

I am so thankful to Secrets of Sarlona for giving this to psions :smallbiggrin:

[joela]

Actually, as pointed out be several people in the thread, it does. :smallsmile: Once you start getting into the Epic Range of Bluff, ri-donk-ulous things can happen.

So in this case, Rich (I presume) was poking fun at the absurdity of some of the Epic Rules.

While we are a long ways away from the Dungeon of Dorukan days, this strip still likes to mock celebrate the rules of DnD from time to time. :smallwink:

Exactly. Realism takes a back seat to story almost any day especially when you're dealing with game rules as said "realism". :smallcool:

[Belkar is back]

Skill checks don't auto-fail on a 1, as far as I recall.

In 4.0 they do.

[aart lover]

quick! see how fast we can coin the term " auto-fail "!

[Cerlis]

-Just cus haley has almost mirrored the effects of Suggestion doesnt mean she's using suggestion. If something "almost impossible to believe" is+20 (and the base for that is 0, unless the characters have reason to not believe your lie. )

so if 20 is the standard for an out of there lie, its reasonible to believe a 30 or 40 could make someone believe something that IS impossible to believe.


Also, The Law of Funny replies. I'd say something about all the talk about what you can actually do with Bluff and DCs and Modifiers but if i voiced my opinion i'd get another warning for flaming.

So i wont.

[Belkar is back]

Did any one see where the bottle went? And why is the Prison made of wood?
What time of day is it any way?

[MoonCat]

Did any one see where the bottle went? And why is the Prison made of wood?
What time of day is it any way?

That appears to be the fence around the gladiatorial viewing seats, which are blocked off from the fighting zone. The bottle went to where Haley keeps her arrows and other stuff.

And the day started here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0748.html), and has been evening ever since the last column here. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0750.html)

[Tobimaro]

Whats stopping them from "waltzing right in"?:smalleek:

Well, there is talk about Haley and Elan appearing on "Dancing With the Stars". :smallwink:

But to answer your question (using a link that was used not to long before me), The Rule of Funny (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RuleOfFunny). :smallcool:

[Baidas Kebante]

In my perspective, there are two possible reasons for how this scene was depicted:

1) With Haley's own bluff skill as high as it is and the added help of the potion, it would be easy enough to write a scenario where Haley succeeds in bluffing the guards. But that would be pretty straight forward and probably boring. Since we already know that Haley should, in all rights, be able to bluff her way past, the Giant simply exchanged the lines for funny and rule-bending ways instead.

2) This could be all part of Tarquin's plan.

[Frosty]

Slight rules problems here (not that it has ever stopped the Giant :smallbiggrin:) but you can't craft a potion of Glibness. Personal range spells can't be put into potions (things like Shield, for example. Or See Invisibility. Or Glibness).

[Darthteej]

Glibness is officially the most broken spell in the game.

[Snowyowl]

This comic is awesome, the minor plot holes are completely overshadowed by the hilarious jokes, and there is nothing to argue about here. Anyone who disagrees with me on this forum is in fact an inanimate quartz crystal and should be ignored. You want to give me cookies. In fact, you will love me for all eternity.
How long do the effects of Bluff last again? I forget. Oh well, let's try this:
The effects of Bluff are permanent.

[AsteriskAmp]

Slight rules problems here (not that it has ever stopped the Giant :smallbiggrin:) but you can't craft a potion of Glibness. Personal range spells can't be put into potions (things like Shield, for example. Or See Invisibility. Or Glibness).

Wasn't that the use for oils?

[JoseB]

Slight rules problems here (not that it has ever stopped the Giant :smallbiggrin:) but you can't craft a potion of Glibness. Personal range spells can't be put into potions (things like Shield, for example. Or See Invisibility. Or Glibness).

However, there was a "philtre of glibness" in earlier versions of AD&D. Most likely it was "nerfed" in later versions of the game (or straight out eliminated). This also ties with an earlier comic, where Vaarsuvius is trying to get Z'zdtri to share a 3.0 version of the "fly" spell (comic #49 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0049.html)) because the newer one was "nerfed".

Also, "philtres" were made into "potions" in later versions of the game. This is also referenced by having the word "philtre" stricken out in the label, with the word "potion" pencilled in.

[SoC175]

Yeah, the manuals say that there are some things that cannot be done, no mater how high you roll. And the master must judge this kind of things.

There's a reason for that, you know. Only until the finally look into the Epic Level Handbook where your very high ranks in bluff actually turn your bluffs into magic.


[FONT="Comic Sans MS"]Don't like this update. I don't care how high your bluff is, you can't just say whatever you want and people will believe you. It's a skill, not a spell. Epic Bluff becomes a spell just like epic swim allows you to go up waterfalls and epic balance eventually allows you to walk on air

How? Bluff isn't magical so it can't be blocked by something that protects you from magical mind effects. It can. The immunity/protection would be against mind-affecting effects, not against magical mind-affecting effects. So while not being magical allows for things like being used within an anti-magic field, it still is a mind-affecting effect.

[KoboldRevenge]

HAha I love it. like you say "I'm not bluffing you!" But if you know im not bluffing you Then it must be true!then i must really be bluffing and Y- (guy's head explodes) XD

[turkishproverb]

"maybe we'll get a job at the palace"

"Yea, nothing ever happens there."

Foreshadowing?

[BenjCano]

Huh. Am I the only one who saw the potion of glibness and thought to himself, "bit of a deus ex machina," him having exactly what they needed to get themselves out of a literal dead end.

Not to say that I wasn't amused by what Hayley did, mind you, but it was a plot element introduced at the exact moment it was needed to solve a problem.

[SoC175]

"maybe we'll get a job at the palace"

"Yea, nothing ever happens there."

Foreshadowing? I think it was a reference to all th palace guards who have been killed just a few days ago (by Haley)

[TreesOfDeath]

http://unmotivationalposters.com/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=458&g2_serialNumber=2

[squidbreath]

Ty, that was hilarious.

[valce]

How long do the effects of Bluff last again? I forget. Oh well, let's try this:
[COLOR="DarkOrange"]The effects of Bluff are permanent.

Actually according to the internet, Epic Bluff can:


Instill Suggestion in Target: This is identical to the effect of the suggestion spell, except that it is nonmagical and lasts for only 10 minutes. It can be sensed as if it were an enchantment effect (Sense Motive DC 25)

... with a DC of 50.

[valce]

Huh. Am I the only one who saw the potion of glibness and thought to himself, "bit of a deus ex machina," him having exactly what they needed to get themselves out of a literal dead end.

Not to say that I wasn't amused by what Hayley did, mind you, but it was a plot element introduced at the exact moment it was needed to solve a problem.

I dunno, I don't associate 'deus ex machina' with solving minor problems. The Wikipedia definition (which admittedly may not be precise) agrees. It's not as if the current problem couldn't have been solved in other ways. Haley and Elan could have killed/disabled the guards, if push came to shove.

Just my 2 copper :P

[Swordpriest]

Actually according to the internet, Epic Bluff can:



... with a DC of 50.

Dang, it would work! :smallbiggrin:

[aart lover]

ok guys, time for some simple logic. A DC 40 is nearly impossible. Since the DC's are in increments of 10 or 15, we can safely say that the bluffs Haley told were DC 50.completely impossible, because even if you had 20 ranks in bluff, you couldn't get it because a d20 can only go up to 20, even with the luckiest roll she'd only get 40. unless, say, you have a potion of Glibness that adds 30 to your roll. with that you'd probably get a 55 or 63 or something in that range , more than enough to convince someone of the ridiculous things that Haley bluffed. and like Haley said, " you can pretty much alter reality if you have enough ranks in it". and she definitely had more than enough ranks in it plus the potion. "it" being the bluff skill of course. well, that's the end of my rant:smallbiggrin:

[Damon_Caskey]

This comic reminds me of a homebrew prestige class a friend of mine and I came up with: Lord of Lies.

In a nutshell, it gave you class level as a bonus to Bluff, and then had a series of abilities that let you literally alter reality with bluff checks. They ranged from simple buffs where you convinced others or even yourself that say, you really are strong enough to lift that gate or whatever...

...all the way up to fooling the universe for a short time as the capstone (Think of a temporary Wish).

It was semi joke idea, but we balanced it for play too. Nothing like convincing some random Orge that "man that had to hurt when Pelor himself came down and kicked you in the balls."

DC

[Thor Person Guy]

Haley used SUPER BLUFF!

It's Super Effective!

Foe's GUARD is confused!

[/lame Pokemon jokes] :smalltongue:

[FrankNorman]

Looks like Haley "took a level" in Munchkin.

[Shoelessgdowar]

Huh. Am I the only one who saw the potion of glibness and thought to himself, "bit of a deus ex machina," him having exactly what they needed to get themselves out of a literal dead end.

Not to say that I wasn't amused by what Hayley did, mind you, but it was a plot element introduced at the exact moment it was needed to solve a problem.

Dude... that is practically Elan's purpose... his boots, the belt of feminity/masculinity, Banjo, Slapstick, his advice to Roy that started this all... Elan is so Genre Saavy that he is always getting things that will coincidentally come in handy later.

And of course Haley can do this... she essentially recieved a compelling voice (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CompellingVoice)... so like the Bene Gesserit, Saruman the Gray, Gandolf the Gray, Obi-wan, and others, she just told them stuff and they believed (And "You don't hear or see us" isn't really to far past "These are not the droids you're looking for")... and funnily enough... the compelling voice (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CompellingVoice) points directly to this exact comic (no, not just OotS, but #767 itself) under the Table Top Games tab as an example.

I'm surprise Haley didn't tell all of them "You now worship Banjo, and all the country's treasures are to be taken to the secret alter of Banjo, *giving them a location* which you were ordered to take the treasure to and never reveal its location but constantly take more treasure too"... She'd be earning major points with Elan and wracking up major riches at the same time.

[Essex]

Bwa Ha Ha! This was one of the best updates ever.

[JSSheridan]

Thanks Giant!

[False Prophet]

For people that don't know it was called a philter in 2e but in 3e it was changed to potion. Good D&D joke.

Yeah, sometime between 2nd and 3rd eds, someone checked a good dictionary and realized "philtre" means "love potion". "Philtre of Love" is fine, if redundant. Philtre of anything else doesn't make sense. :smallsmile:

[tiriricasmk]

edited
i get the joke now
i suck

[NegativeFifteen]

I'm just a little curious how Elan is going to act when Roy's around again(Last Panel). I think Haley owes Roy an apology...

[22Charisma]

So part of me feels like Belkar did when Darth V resolved the split party problems and such, that had been taking forever to resolve, in like five minutes.

The other part of me thinks it's hillarious and epic. Pardon the possible pun.:smallbiggrin:

[Arakune]

Ah yes, the wonders of maximized skills. Magic in and itself where only GM fiat can hope to dispel.

[Hydro]

Just happening to have that potion on hand isn't jut an "Elan thing", it's a "D&D thing"; the first thing players in sticky situations do is search over their character sheet, and often they'll come up with some forgotten single-use item that saves their butts.

People often point to fly or haste or the polymorph tree as spells which are broken for their level, but if you actually treat the Bluff skill as it's written in 3e, none of those hold a candle to Glibness.

[Aurenthal]

ROFL!!!
It´s great! Hope you keep coming with such good "jokes"!:haley:

[Gavinfoxx]

This is great! Halie, of a low tier, nonmagical class, should be able to do stuff like this!

Also, since glibness is an arcane spell, it can be put in one of those gemstones (I believe in FRCS?), and used kinda like a potion. Or as a divine spell (divine bard?), it could be in some runes, and also used like a potion.

[drebb]

Elan is still wearing his sneaky boots!
Except for in panels 5 and 7 for some reason.
CLEARLY...

a wizard did it.

[vegetalss4]

HAha I love it. like you say "I'm not bluffing you!" But if you know im not bluffing you Then it must be true!then i must really be bluffing and Y- (guy's head explodes) XD

No, no no no.

you are not bluffing me, I belive you, that means that it is true that you aren't bluffing me, so you are STILL not bluffing me, no paradox.

[Jay R]

I'm just a little curious how Elan is going to act when Roy's around again(Last Panel). I think Haley owes Roy an apology...

"You're glad I made Elan think you value his opinion, and will not do anything to disillusion him."

[Sir_Ophiuchus]

No, no no no.

you are not bluffing me, I belive you, that means that it is true that you aren't bluffing me, so you are STILL not bluffing me, no paradox.

Correct. The paradox is:

"I am lying to you."

Anyway, if you flatly contradict yourself while bluffing and can't rationalise it quickly, it doesn't matter how good your skill is. The whole house of cards falls in. :)

[Keinnicht]

I don't think she's using bluff as suggestion. I think it kind of made sense. Basically her bluff check is so high that she seems trustworthy no matter what she's saying. She's not magically altering their perception, she's telling them a lie so convincing they're totally unsure of what's correct, and, being guards, are probably not prone to arguing with someone who seems like they could be a recently promoted higher ranking officer.

[Raza]

These uses of super-high bluff seem reasonable to me, actually. People are extremely suggestible if you apply knowledge of the right psychological mechanisms.

Epic-level bluff skill is basically on-the-spot hypnosis. No magic required.

[Cerlis]

Huh. Am I the only one who saw the potion of glibness and thought to himself, "bit of a deus ex machina," him having exactly what they needed to get themselves out of a literal dead end.

Not to say that I wasn't amused by what Hayley did, mind you, but it was a plot element introduced at the exact moment it was needed to solve a problem.

A Deux ex Machina means Machine of the Gods. It came from the fact that in some old plays that the writer wouldnt know (or have time to think of) a reasonible plot element to solve the problem so he had the Gods fly in and fix everything.

Since both the problem and the "deux ex machina" where introduced within two strips of each other, I hardly think that Rich couldnt think of an idea. In fact two other logical ways of dealing with the problem where pointed out (Killage, and Illusions). However Rich, well aware of the common joke that is a high bluff check, took the opportunity for an Aside joke. :smallbiggrin:

we can either expect that haley and elan will have to deal with simular "smartish" guards further in, or to go straight to the dramatics (Ian and company drama). So the whole situation was just a joke, they could have easily been written that Haley and Elan snuck past them, or they just killed the guards and hid the bodies or Tricked them. But this tactic allowed for several jokes and a little more showing of character before the plot continued.:smallwink:

ye should have faith

-----------------------

These uses of super-high bluff seem reasonable to me, actually. People are extremely suggestible if you apply knowledge of the right psychological mechanisms.

Epic-level bluff skill is basically on-the-spot hypnosis. No magic required.

indeed, if people remembered all the times they heard someone believe something stupid they heard from a friend, from the internet or what have you then the guards reactions arent that suprising.

For some people you could say "Ducks are actually Mammals, technically". If you gave a reasonable explination and acted confidently enough, they would at least doupt their own opinion and probably look into it to be sure or ask someone else to make sure the person was just joking with them.

and we definately arent mid level characters with magical enhancements.

If you remember people in life, you'd notice some people often subconciously auto-fail their sense motive checks:smallwink:

[Toper]

The "glibness-is-broken" joke wasn't strong enough to sustain an entire strip for me, and none of the other lines seemed terribly funny for me, but I guess other people liked the strip better.

Answering various people from earlier in the thread: Although epic Bluff can imitate Suggestion, Haley could not have been doing this for the simple reason that Glibness (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/glibness.htm) explicitly only gives its bonus to run-of-the-mill lying.

[Wrecan]

TAlthough epic Bluff can imitate Suggestion, Haley could not have been doing this for the simple reason that Glibness (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/glibness.htm) explicitly only gives its bonus to run-of-the-mill lying.

That's not what Glibness says. Glibness gives a "bonus on Bluff checks made to convince another of the truth of your words". That's what Haley is doing, albeit at an epic level. The spell contrasts this with "other uses of the Bluff skill, such as feinting in combat, creating a diversion to hide, or communicating a hidden message via innuendo", which Haley is not doing.

[oddtail]

A Deux ex Machina means Machine of the Gods. It came from the fact that in some old plays that the writer wouldnt know (or have time to think of) a reasonible plot element to solve the problem so he had the Gods fly in and fix everything.

Minor nitpick: it's spelt "deus" ex machina. With an "s". Also, it literally means "god out of [the] machine".

As for what is possible or impossible with a Bluff skill... I'm with the people who pointed out that in D&D, you can cast balls of energy by waving your hands around like a loon, fall from impossible distances, survive things that would kill a normal person (and not let them affect your physical capabilities, to boot) and do all manner of impossible things. While you're battling creatures and travelling through lands that have never existed and, in many cases, *could* not exist.

Why is it acceptable to have magic, or elves, or warriors who battle dragons, and it is not acceptable to have supernatural lying skills or the ability to walk on clouds? The game already isn't realistic. What matters is whether the world is internally consistent and serves as the setting for the kind of story that the players and DM have in mind. D&D is not unlike myths and legends about heroes. Some of those legends don't really "make sense". Why are there characters in some Arthurian legends who are supposed to be giants, but still ride normal-sized horses? And, while we're at that, do not seem so gigantic when the plot requires them to be human-sized? Who cares? It's how the story unfolds. It's about being fun and entertaining.

This is not to say that there couldn't be a more realistic D&D setting where epic effects of skills would be banned. But I'm assuming that such a setting would seriously limit other things that are no more realistic, things that D&D players are more used to and don't seem to mind. Like the way Hit Points work.

[Dyluth]

All I shall say is that this was a great comic with more than just a couple of laughs. Excellent work Giant and I can't wait to see where this added confidence to her bluff shall lead Haley down the road!

Also, here's to hoping that guard finds a way to pay off his mortgage! Perhaps he'll find out he's not actually laid off in the new few minutes :)

[Shoelessgdowar]

For some people you could say "Ducks are actually Mammals, technically". If you gave a reasonable explination and acted confidently enough, they would at least doupt their own opinion and probably look into it to be sure or ask someone else to make sure the person was just joking with them.

and we definately arent mid level characters with magical enhancements.

If you remember people in life, you'd notice some people often subconciously auto-fail their sense motive checks:smallwink:

Orson Wells reading of 'War of the Worlds' on the radio caused a scare on halloween when people who came in during the middle of the broadcast believed it was a real radio broadcast reporting the news of an Alien Invasion.

People mailed in massive amounts of letters to support government efforts to rescue the Castoways from Gilligan's Island, believing the show was real.

The BBC used to broadcast about the yearly spagetti Harvest Festival where it is picked from the bushes that 'it grows on', and people called the BBC to find out about attending the festival.

--------------------------------------------------------------

Side note, I think some people miss the joke of the Last Guard... he doesn't think he's a guard polymorphed into a Yellow-Footed Rock Wallaby, he thinks he's a Yellow-Footed Rock Wallaby whose been polymorphed into a guard and now he's going to get some wizard to polymorph him back to his 'True' form.

Expect to see a Yellow-Footed Rock Wallaby hopping around in an upcoming strip :)

[deimos3428]

Minor nitpick: it's spelt "deus" ex machina. With an "s". Also, it literally means "god out of [the] machine".
Correct, but in this case it'd be deus ex amphora -- god from the bottle. Haley is fairly godlike because of the magic potion.

The mechanics have been simplified because it's a game; it makes little sense to allow that level of Bluffing without magic of some kind or other as part of the rationalization.

[suszterpatt]

A Deux ex Machina means Machine of the Gods. It came from the fact that in some old plays that the writer wouldnt know (or have time to think of) a reasonible plot element to solve the problem so he had the Gods fly in and fix everything.Correction.

Deus Ex Machina means "God out of the machine". In ancient greek theatre, it was absolutely par for the course for plays to end by having a deity suddenly appear, resolve all conflicts and dispense the morals of the story: it was part of the format, not a lack of creativity on the writer's part. The expression comes from the actor playing the god having been lowered into the scene with a crane: hence, the god arrives "out of the machine".

Carry on.

[Jay R]

Deus Ex Machina means "God out of the machine". In ancient greek theatre, it was absolutely par for the course for plays to end by having a deity suddenly appear, resolve all conflicts and dispense the morals of the story: it was part of the format, not a lack of creativity on the writer's part. The expression comes from the actor playing the god having been lowered into the scene with a crane: hence, the god arrives "out of the machine".

Well, that's sorta true, but incomplete.

The Greek expression apo mekhanes theos refers to a crane used to lower a platform with the actors playing the gods. It merely referred to the apparatus. Aristotle criticized its use for resolving the plot saying the solution of the plot should come out of the plot itself, and then the phrase became a metaphorical term for the plot device.

Despite what Wikipedia says, the phrase deus ex machina does not actually appear in Horace's Ars Poetica, although he speaks against using gods to intercede.

Horace also introduced the phrase in media res (in the middle of things), for the technique of starting the poem or play in the middle of the action, such as starting a webcomic with the D&D party already in the dungeon. (This was not, by the way, Horace's example -- For some reason, he used The Iliad instead.).

[brized]

IIRC, Glibness is for one bluff check only, but still a mighty good comic :smallsmile:Nope. It lasts 10 minutes per caster level (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/glibness.htm), unlimited uses within that duration. The spell is very abusable. Not as abusable as some other spells, though.

[Shoelessgdowar]

Nope. It lasts 10 minutes per caster level (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/glibness.htm), unlimited uses within that duration. The spell is very abusable. Not as abusable as some other spells, though.

Ooo, reading the entry (especially the part about potentially being protected from forcing truth/detecting lies) made me think of a new name for it... instead of calling it a potion or filter or even mentioning glibness... you could call it Anti-Truth Serum or False Truth Serum.

[Killer Angel]

Correction.

Deus Ex Machina means "God out of the machine". In ancient greek theatre, it was absolutely par for the course for plays to end by having a deity suddenly appear, resolve all conflicts and dispense the morals of the story: it was part of the format, not a lack of creativity on the writer's part. The expression comes from the actor playing the god having been lowered into the scene with a crane: hence, the god arrives "out of the machine".

Carry on.


Well, that's sorta true, but incomplete.

The Greek expression apo mekhanes theos refers to a crane used to lower a platform with the actors playing the gods. It merely referred to the apparatus. Aristotle criticized its use for resolving the plot saying the solution of the plot should come out of the plot itself, and then the phrase became a metaphorical term for the plot device.

Despite what Wikipedia says, the phrase deus ex machina does not actually appear in Horace's Ars Poetica, although he speaks against using gods to intercede.

Horace also introduced the phrase in media res (in the middle of things), for the technique of starting the poem or play in the middle of the action, such as starting a webcomic with the D&D party already in the dungeon. (This was not, by the way, Horace's example -- For some reason, he used The Iliad instead.).

Not only you guys ninja'd me of a full day, but this forum is definitely epic.

Also, I love the "must be a trick of the light" line. :smallsmile:

[The MunchKING]

Yeah, sometime between 2nd and 3rd eds, someone checked a good dictionary and realized "philtre" means "love potion". "Philtre of Love" is fine, if redundant. Philtre of anything else doesn't make sense. :smallsmile:

What? You DON'T make Love potions of Lying? Or Love Potions of Stamina??

That kind of thing sounds very USEFUL to combine with a love potion. :smalltongue:

[The MunchKING]

CLEARLY...

a wizard did it.

clearly the boots are so sneaky they can hide themselves some of the time.

[rewinn]

clearly the boots are so sneaky they can hide themselves some of the time.kinda like socks?

[cc_kizz]

Elan is still wearing his sneaky boots!
Except for in panels 5 and 7 for some reason.


Anyone notice that Elan randomly (and instantly) changes back to his old boots for two panels?


It looks like Rich forgot and drew him normally. I only saw the sneaky boots, so good catch! Does Rich fix mistakes in his artwork if someone points it out?

I totally didn't catch this!

And I get the title now! Clever!

[Burner28]

Actually I don't remember where the potion in question was foreshadowed...

:smallconfused:

[Rev. George]

There is no need for the 70 skill check or even the 50 one. In the magical world of DnD, it is entirely possible (though unlikely) that one is a polymorphed creature, so that is only a +20 check. The only lie that MIGHT need an epic check is the one about not seeing the heroes- though it could be argued that even that is dicey given the existence of illusions, hallucinatory hauntings and the like.


-+G

[Kno Lawjick]

What's next Haley, flying with jump? :smallbiggrin:

[Magdela]

Can Elan Disguise others?

If so, turning Haley into Tarquin while the potion is active might possibly help. would make an interesting scene when they find Ian.

Haley: Ian!
Ian: you! *throws feces*
Haley: Ugh! I'm your daughter!
This made me laugh out loud.:smallbiggrin:

Maybe, just maybe, she has ring of +20 plot advancement?

[Lemonus]

"Yellow-Footed Rock Wallaby" Awesome.

[Tychris1]

Oh Haley you magnificent female dog, I hope the next comic strip will have increasingly ridiculous claims until a guard looks at her and simply attacks her.

[Boogastreehouse]

Huh. Am I the only one who saw the potion of glibness and thought to himself, "bit of a deus ex machina," him having exactly what they needed to get themselves out of a literal dead end.

Not to say that I wasn't amused by what Hayley did, mind you, but it was a plot element introduced at the exact moment it was needed to solve a problem.

I don't think it's a over-used literary term deus ex machina at all.

They only hit that dead end in the first place so that Elan would have an excuse to pull out that potion and they'd then have an excuse to make a bunch of bluffing-jokes.

The potion is just a set up for a joke, making it a simple plot device, nothing more.

(And just to head off any goofy trope-based theories reasonable speculation; if the potion turns out to be important later, that does not necessarily make it a Chekhov's gun!)

[KoboldRevenge]

I love the little pose Haley does when she first talks in her new voice.

[aart lover]

What's next Haley, flying with jump? :smallbiggrin:

i wouldn't put it past her, OR the Giant.

[ElfMaster2000]

Hilarious.

[scienceguy8]

Side note, I think some people miss the joke of the Last Guard... he doesn't think he's a guard polymorphed into a Yellow-Footed Rock Wallaby, he thinks he's a Yellow-Footed Rock Wallaby whose been polymorphed into a guard and now he's going to get some wizard to polymorph him back to his 'True' form.

Expect to see a Yellow-Footed Rock Wallaby hopping around in an upcoming strip :)

No, I think the guard currently thinks he is a wallaby and has gone to get himself turned back into a human. I have no idea why you think it is the other way around. Care to explain?

*pulls up couch, sits in chair, and begins stroking goatee while jotting on a legal pad and preparing ink blots*

[Swordpriest]

No, I think the guard currently thinks he is a wallaby and has gone to get himself turned back into a human. I have no idea why you think it is the other way around. Care to explain?

*pulls up couch, sits in chair, and begins stroking goatee while jotting on a legal pad and preparing ink blots*

"You're actually a yellow-footed rock wallaby."

"Screw this guard stuff, then. I'm gonna go find a wizard to polymorph me back."

(Emphasis mine)

The implication of his "actually" being a rock wallaby implies that he really is one, even if he happens to not look like one at the moment. That, at least, is how I understand the English semantics as working, as this following theoretical example illustrates:

"Hello, ragged wanderer. What can do for you today?"

"Although I look like a ragged vagabond, I am actually the King. Bring me a horse, for I am in great need!"

[AlexanderRM]

Yeah, the manuals say that there are some things that cannot be done, no mater how high you roll. And the master must judge this kind of things.

There's a reason for that, you know.

In fact, the 3.5 PHB specifically says: "bluff, however, is not a suggestion spell".
Based on the example given there, I would conclude that telling the guard that he was a "yellow-footed rock wallaby" would only cause him to take a moment to confirm that he was not... the other two in the "alter reality" category probably wouldn't work either.


I suppose that the Epic Rules would override that (they were presumably written with that bit in mind), but according to the d20 SRD, instill suggestion in target gives them a +50 bonus to their sense motive, while Haley gets +30 to bluff from the potion; those bluffs Haley was making would probably have incurred even further, nonepic bonuses of a pretty significant magnitude, not to mention possible penalties from the previous failed bluff check (in the first case) and perhaps from the complete randomness of the bluff (in the other cases).
Might still be at least hypothetically doable if she has lots of ranks in bluff (the guards probably don't even have any ranks in sense motive), but given that she makes 4 bluffs there (one to two people who each get a sense motive, and I think it's fairly safe to say she's nonepic and thus doesn't have that many ranks in bluff, I think Haley would have to get really lucky, both in her rolls and the guard's, for all of those to work.