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View Full Version : How high level should a guy trying to off the party be?



Keinnicht
2011-01-07, 04:58 PM
He's not a BBEG, the party has been committing copious amounts of random murder, theft, and general debauchery (They're evil) and I figure it's going to be time soon for them to gain a "wanted" status.

The party is going on a big dungeon crawl, and when they emerge will probably be (estimate)

Barbarian 8
Druid 8
Rogue 7
Cleric 7

Keep in mind this is going to be one guy without backup, and probably not a spellcaster. I was thinking around tenth or eleventh level?

AyeGill
2011-01-07, 05:01 PM
10-11 sounds fair enough, although if you want him to be the ind of challenge that takes serious tactics or luck to beat, i'd up it with a level or two.

Ytaker
2011-01-07, 05:04 PM
How well optimized are your characters? Can they normally beat enemies with CR ratings above their own, or do they fail?

Keld Denar
2011-01-07, 05:08 PM
A REALLY challenging encounter (one expected to consume nearly 100% of party daily resources) is defined as EL = APL +4. Your party APL is 7.5. If he was a solo baddy, he'd have to be level ~12 to be APL+4. If he wasn't solo, 2 level 10s would be EL 12, or 2 8s and a 10, or 4 8s would all be about 12.

If you gave him favorable circumstances (like, if he attacked at night when he has Darkvision and HipS), that might bump the EL by a point, and a level 11 character would still be EL12.

arguskos
2011-01-07, 05:13 PM
I'd like to note that a well-built assassin type of character could be their level or so (call it level 9) and will absolutely murder them if they're not cautious. If you use smart tactics, play a high-Int and well-practiced assassin correctly, they'll all be slaughtered in short order.

If this is meant to be more of a straight-up "I'm here for your skulls" kinda fight, yeah, 11 or 12 sounds right.

KillianHawkeye
2011-01-07, 05:24 PM
I think the answer to this question really depends on whether or not you want the guy to actually have a chance or not. I mean, lots of people could want the party dead. That doesn't mean they can pull it off, though.

In one of my games a couple of PCs roughed up this old man because they thought he murdered a halfling wizard in the village they were in (or that he was behind it, anyway). He'd love to get revenge on them, but he's way lower level. That won't necessarily stop him from trying, though.

Lord Vampyre
2011-01-07, 05:36 PM
You should probably send a 12th level Paladin or someone with the Vigilante or Bounty Hunter PrC after them. Since two of the characters are tier 1, you really need to make the nemesis at least 4 levels higher than the party to give them a challenge, unless you plan on using a spellcaster.

hamishspence
2011-01-07, 05:38 PM
Swordsage- maybe with a race and feats designed to maximize stealth, might be pretty scary. Sneak up on party member, attack, then disappear.

Dr.Epic
2011-01-07, 05:40 PM
Do you want to kill the party members or just challenge them? Are you trying to tell them "You die because you're evil."? If you're trying to punish them then you should realize players can be evil and if they're clever enough with it they can get away with (literally) murder. Evil parties do exist and campaigns can be based around them.

I'd say level 15 should be good, though that may be overkill. How crafty are these players?

Jair Barik
2011-01-07, 05:53 PM
Heh, depending on circumstances an unfavourably classed character lower level than them could potentially be challenging.
In a lowere level campaign I ran a kobold with two or three levels of rogue+three other kobolds without levels managed to render all three players unconscious. Dropping the mage with sneak attack, the rogue with regular damage and reducing the fighters dex to 0 with poison thats secondary damage kicked in after the kobolds were all dead (no TPK as friendly NPC's close at hand to heal).

Similar circumstances, party had a wanted status, enemy hunting them. Ambush took place as the party went to rest. Fighter and rogue removing armour but keeping weapons close at hand, elven wizard keeping watch.

Your lawbringer already has the fact the party will have been worn down by the dungeon crawl going for him (unless they rope trick in the dungeon). If he is lawful don't make him ambush them whilst they are asleep, if chaotic, evil or maybe neutral then go for it.

FMArthur
2011-01-07, 05:53 PM
A single opponent who fulfils the 'assassin' archetype with any competence at all and is 4 levels higher than them will be able to murder any one player of their choosing before going down. Maybe it fits the bill if they 'win' in the end, but that one player's going to be pretty unhappy, especially if it all happens undetectably and/or in one round.

My advice is to make him a strong warrior, but not actually be a full-on assassin type made to instantly kill whoever you decide they attack first. A powerfully-defensive warrior running around with Damage Reduction, Karmic Strike, Robilar's Gambit, and Dual Strike can be a brutally threatening opponent that the PCs don't have to be instagibbed by to understand the level of danger present (it attacks twice if attacked, twice more if successfully struck - 4 times for one blow). Crusader and some Fighter levels or Psychic Warrior should be able to do it with extra flair from Crusader maneuvers and some of the defensive Psychic Warrior powers.

hamishspence
2011-01-07, 05:57 PM
Or have them play "hit and run"

So the character could be not trying to insta-kill- they're trying to whittle the party's health down bit by bit- striking and vanishing.

Eventually- there's a showdown between the badly weakened party and the killer.

Dr.Epic
2011-01-07, 06:01 PM
What class(es)? I know you said not a spellcaster, but is this guy a rouge and you want them to deal an insane amount of sneak attack damage? Is he a tank? Does he have a PrC like assassin or Frenzied Berserker that'll make him a real challenge?

Jair Barik
2011-01-07, 06:04 PM
Or have them play "hit and run"

So the character could be not trying to insta-kill- they're trying to whittle the party's health down bit by bit- striking and vanishing.

Eventually- there's a showdown between the badly weakened party and the killer.

This type of strategy can be very effective using poisons and specialist items. It will be dark so perhaps (if you go for a ranged sneaky type) have him sit out at long range with a nice web of caltrops/quickly set up traps such as tanglefoot bags so that the party unwittingly crippled/hindered themselves if they managed to spot him and run towards him.

hamishspence
2011-01-07, 06:07 PM
Sounds about right- the trick isn't to kill the party members one by one- but to scare the whole party- make them feel they're approaching a total party kill all at once- so when they finally win, they get a real sense of relief.

Keinnicht
2011-01-07, 06:09 PM
Do you want to kill the party members or just challenge them? Are you trying to tell them "You die because you're evil."? If you're trying to punish them then you should realize players can be evil and if they're clever enough with it they can get away with (literally) murder. Evil parties do exist and campaigns can be based around them.

I'd say level 15 should be good, though that may be overkill. How crafty are these players?

Not terribly crafty. But a few of the characters got pretty lucky rolls and all of them have at least one score of eighteen or higher. The rogue is basically guaranteed to go first (+10 initiative modifier) and the barbarian regularly hits things with power attacks that deal 20+ damage.

I'm not trying to kill them so much as I am trying to alert them that there are consequences for their actions. I'm not going to arbitrarily kill them off, I approved the evil party before the game even started. It's just I'm not going to let them run around slaughtering every person they come across without ever, ever attracting the attention of a someone more powerful than a town guard.

Dr.Epic
2011-01-07, 06:12 PM
Not terribly crafty. But a few of the characters got pretty lucky rolls and all of them have at least one score of eighteen or higher. The rogue is basically guaranteed to go first (+10 initiative modifier) and the barbarian regularly hits things with power attacks that deal 20+ damage.

I'm not trying to kill them so much as I am trying to alert them that there are consequences for their actions. I'm not going to arbitrarily kill them off, I approved the evil party before the game even started. It's just I'm not going to let them run around slaughtering every person they come across without ever, ever attracting the attention of a someone more powerful than a town guard.

I think maybe 12-13 should be good(, but some of that also depends on the build). Also, what (magical) items do they have?

Keinnicht
2011-01-07, 06:14 PM
What class(es)? I know you said not a spellcaster, but is this guy a rouge and you want them to deal an insane amount of sneak attack damage? Is he a tank? Does he have a PrC like assassin or Frenzied Berserker that'll make him a real challenge?

I was leaning towards making him some kind of tank with levels in a bounty hunter sort of prestige class like vigilante, justicar, or bloodhound.

Having thought about it, I think I'm going to hold off on the paladin. That seems like a better higher-level sort of opponent. It seems like right now they'd be viewed as "powerful criminals" but not "powerful forces of evil."

Leon
2011-01-07, 06:18 PM
As powerful as he needs to be - if its a NPC your creating he doesn't need exacting in what his levels are.

Keinnicht
2011-01-07, 06:20 PM
I think maybe 12-13 should be good(, but some of that also depends on the build). Also, what (magical) items do they have?

Haven't actually made him yet. Probably a magic weapon, armor, and some wondrous items to boost his stats and saves. I'm thinking about his build now, I think I might go Ranger/Rogue, seems like a fitting class combination.

Plus I just thought of his intimidating first move, post-introduction and explanation of crimes.

TWF tree + quick draw = "Upon finishing, he draws and throws a dagger at each of your heads."

Possibly dealing sneak attack damage, depending on how much talking was done.

arguskos
2011-01-07, 06:50 PM
Possibly dealing sneak attack damage, depending on how much talking was done.
...why would he talk at all? He's there to kill them, not explain who he is and give them a chance to shoot first. That's why Greedo died after all. :smalltongue:

To quote the illustrious Steve Zissou: "You never say, 'I'm gonna fight you, Steve.' You just smile and act natural, and then you sucker-punch him."

Severus
2011-01-07, 07:14 PM
Another idea is to rob them. Some skilled local thief figures, "These guys can't go to the cops on me, what are they gonna say, I took something they took from the guy they murdered?"

Could even just be their level. They come out of the dungeon tired and beat up, and that night some of their loot walks away. Maybe they blame each other...

Runestar
2011-01-07, 07:22 PM
I estimate the actual cr of a classed npc to be roughly 2/3 their class lvs. So you are looking at 12 class lvs, with the wealth of a 8th lv npc, for a cr8 (fair fight). I suppose a paladin12 could work (especially with feats from complete champion), but you could also consider prcs from BOED like fist of raziel.

For a more challenging encounter, roughly 15 class lvs with cr10 gear (~cr10).

Alternatively, look to various splatbook for justice-themed npcs like the inevitable, various archons (advanced hound archon with class lvs or sword archon perhaps?) or a gold/silver dragon of appropriate age category.

Saint GoH
2011-01-07, 07:32 PM
I always wondered this... If a party is evil, it is likely known they run around in a pack slaughtering innocents, so WHY WOULD A SINGLE PERSON CHASE THEM DOWN?

I'd say make a party of Adventurers who read the WANTED list in the tavern one day. If there are Evil PC's there must be a Good aligned party as well. So rather then have 1 guy lvl 12-15, have a party of 4-5 lvl 8's. This will allow you to actually challenge the PC's by having a class that focuses on their weak points opposite them, forcing them to work together to down the opposing party.

If you are dead set on one guy, do a TWF Master Thrower build (Fighter 2/Rokugan Ninja 4/Master Thrower 5/Rogue X) that can potentially hit multiple targets each round for some decent damage with sneak attack+decent base damge. Do Hit and Run Tactics/Targeteer ACF for the fighter for double dex to damage, have him pre-poison most of his daggers (or use poison coated sheaths) and go to town on their touch AC throwing 2 daggers with one attack roll :smallbiggrin:

Runestar
2011-01-07, 08:57 PM
I always wondered this... If a party is evil, it is likely known they run around in a pack slaughtering innocents, so WHY WOULD A SINGLE PERSON CHASE THEM DOWN?

Revenge, perhaps? He isn't evil, but just too agitated to think straight.

elonin
2011-01-07, 09:24 PM
A single opponent who fulfils the 'assassin' archetype with any competence at all and is 4 levels higher than them will be able to murder any one player of their choosing before going down. Maybe it fits the bill if they 'win' in the end, but that one player's going to be pretty unhappy, especially if it all happens undetectably and/or in one round.

My advice is to make him a strong warrior, but not actually be a full-on assassin type made to instantly kill whoever you decide they attack first. A powerfully-defensive warrior running around with Damage Reduction, Karmic Strike, Robilar's Gambit, and Dual Strike can be a brutally threatening opponent that the PCs don't have to be instagibbed by to understand the level of danger present (it attacks twice if attacked, twice more if successfully struck - 4 times for one blow). Crusader and some Fighter levels or Psychic Warrior should be able to do it with extra flair from Crusader maneuvers and some of the defensive Psychic Warrior powers.

Either Robilier's gambit or Karmic strike activate. Not both.

Eisirt
2011-01-07, 09:26 PM
I'd not use 1 NPC of much higher lvl, but at least 2 NPC's of slightly higher lvl.

Take a look at the Bloodhound Prestige Class and bring them back alive and put them on trial.

Sentence them to a geased quest for attonement and then let after that let them go, maybe they review their ways; maybe they go back to wantom murder.

Killing can always wait untill later.

FMArthur
2011-01-07, 11:12 PM
Either Robilier's gambit or Karmic strike activate. Not both.

If you have Combat Reflexes, they most certainly do, being triggered off of different events. In fact, even if they triggered off of the same events, you still wouldn't be restricted by this because each feat provides an extra Opportunity, and you're not taking advantage of any Opportunity more than once as per the Attack of Opportunity rules limitations, except with the specific exception of Double Hit which allows such a thing.

edit: I did mistakenly call the Double Hit feat "Dual Strike" though, which is probably an awful feat from Complete Adventure if I'm guessing right. There are so many feats whose names are basically paraphrasals of each other. God forbid they name things in a halfway-descriptive manner. I bet there are feats named 'Double Strike' and 'Dual Hit', too.

VacantPsalm
2011-01-08, 01:54 AM
I just thought of something that might freak people out. (Hopefully no one in my party finds this cuz I like it, and if you do then please tell me so we can lulz about it.) Grab the Icechucker from Frostburn and make up varient icicles that are barbed, hollow and filled with inhale poison... then cover them with injury poison for good mesure.

Have the assassin sniping with this thing. When it hits someone it has a chance of getting stuck in them. In order to remove them it takes an I-don't-know heal check. However, make up some percentage that the icicle will break in the person's hands when they pull it out, releasing the inhale gas. Have this assassin make his attempt during a nice sunny day so even if they don't touch the icicles they'll melt in X amount of rounds. Also have it be a rocky place so the bolts that miss can shatter on impact.

Preplan that this assassin will underestimate the party so he'll cheese it after everyone's (enough people are?) still standing. Also have a way for the players to know this so they'll get the point that he'll probably be back, rather he will be or not.

If things go uber wrong and they aren't impressed, have him cast invisibility on himself then use some image spell to have someone "charge" them from the other side of the party. They'll all get ready to fight the image and when they find out it's no real, he's already standing behind someone and uses a full attack to stab the snot out of their back. (this is all assuming that using scrolls fits in with your "he's not a spell caster," thing.) After a few attacks, THEN he'll realize that they're bigger then he thought and cheese it.

If things go uber great for him, have him capture them all alive. Maybe have him walk out pointing the crossbow at the last one standing and tell them to stand down. And if they do it, POW, have him hit them right in the face just to be a douche. (cuz really, would the evil players show mercy?)

Holy cow this post turned out so much longer then I thought.

kme
2011-01-08, 10:21 AM
I would also suggest multiple weaker opponents instead of one. If they defeat one powerful foe they will feel like they killed a boss and achieved some kind of epic victory. If they get almost killed by a bunch of lower level guys they will feel weak and threatened if such weak opponents were able to almost defeat them, what would happen is some higher level one come after them?:smallamused:

My suggestion would be to make a party of 5-6 level 5 NPCs that have set up an ambush at the entrance. Use smart tactics and synergistic builds to make it a challenge, maybe they even learn something about craftiness.