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Qwertystop
2011-01-07, 08:37 PM
What's the best way to get a caster who works by inventive uses of low-power spells? (Cantrips; low level spells that are not directly combat-related or require inventiveness to use effectively, etc.)

I'm looking for 3 things to make this work:
1: A set of feats, flaws, classes, ACFs, etc to maximize the amount of such spells that I can get, and the effectiveness of same spells.
2: Some specific spells that would qualify for this, as I cannot look through all the sourcebooks myself.
3: A few inventive methods of using those spells.

AslanCross
2011-01-07, 08:49 PM
An illusionist wizard might be the best, as you have a whole bunch of spells that require creativity by default (the image line, and shadow conjuration).

Trekkin
2011-01-07, 09:03 PM
The obvious method of getting lots of cantrips is to multiclass in as many spontaneous spellcasting classes as are available, both arcane and divine.

Not taking into account ability scores, a wiz1/src1/clr1/drd1 would have 4+8+4+4 = 20 slots to fill with 0-level spells by fourth level, and that's just using the SRD. I will edit this post when I return from book perusal.

EDIT: Sorcerer/favored soul/shugenja/specialist wizard with UA's Focused Specialization/cleric/druid/archivist = 43 cantrips or first-level spells at level 7.

Further edit: as sresevoir pointed out, a level of spirit shaman translates to a total of 48 spells by level 8, divided between arcane, clerical, and druid spells.

sreservoir
2011-01-07, 10:31 PM
Not taking into account ability scores

bonus spells do not happen for 0-level spells.

EDIT: also spirit shaman.

Trekkin
2011-01-07, 10:39 PM
bonus spells do not happen for 0-level spells.

EDIT: also spirit shaman.

True, but they do happen for the higher-level spells that would most likely be filled with metamagiced cantrips.

sreservoir
2011-01-07, 10:44 PM
and, hey, beguiler and dread necro and warmage for fixed-list, but they have more of a list than most spontaneous casters learn at 1st level.

Qwertystop
2011-01-07, 10:50 PM
An illusionist wizard might be the best, as you have a whole bunch of spells that require creativity by default (the image line, and shadow conjuration).

Shadow Conjuration doesn't seem like it needs too much creativity though. I mean, it seems to me as just a way for a specialist who banned Conjuration to get a few of the spells. Same goes for Shadow Evocation. the Image line is a good idea, though.

The obvious method of getting lots of cantrips is to multiclass in as many spontaneous spellcasting classes as are available, both arcane and divine.

Not taking into account ability scores, a wiz1/src1/clr1/drd1 would have 4+8+4+4 = 20 slots to fill with 0-level spells by fourth level, and that's just using the SRD. I will edit this post when I return from book perusal.

EDIT: Sorcerer/favored soul/shugenja/specialist wizard with UA's Focused Specialization/cleric/druid/archivist = 43 cantrips or first-level spells at level 7.
That seems like it would bring enormous XP penalties, but if the DM will houserule that out, I think that could work well.

Actually, isn't it possible to use a spell slot with a lower-level spell than the one it's listed for? Like preparing Prestidigitation in a 2nd level slot, just because you want lots of Prestidigitation and not many of your 2nd levels? (there's got to be some situation that would be good for)

Anyway, my point is not so much the low-level-spell emphasis as the using-weak-spells-unexpectedly emphasis. I'm sure there's plenty of 3rd or 4th level spells without an obvious combat use, for example. I don't want to give the In-Character impression of being a dabbler (wording?), I want to seem like someone who favors extreme levels of finesse and thought, moreso than is usually practical even for a crowd-controller.

dextercorvia
2011-01-07, 10:53 PM
Beguiler1/Wizard4/UltimateMagusX

Use the Practiced Spellcaster trick. With a mostly dual progression you will (eventually) get more spell slots than adding 1st level dips. You can use higher level slots for creative/metamagiced uses of lower level spells.

If you can get it, the Arcane Fusion spell allows you to cast two lower level spells for the cost of one higher level spell. (Requires the nice reading of Extra Spell, or Recaster or Wyrm Wizard.)

Urpriest
2011-01-07, 10:56 PM
That seems like it would bring enormous XP penalties, but if the DM will houserule that out, I think that could work well.


No no no. XP penalties do not work that way. If I was less lazy I'd post a picture of Morbo.

You get an XP penalty if your classes are more than one level apart. A build made of small dips and prestige classes will have less of an XP penalty than a build with one medium-sized dip and all the other levels in something else.

Trekkin
2011-01-07, 11:00 PM
If you don't mind being a manifester, the Shaper is quite possibly my favorite class for applying creativity. Astral Constructs can be Sculpted to look like whatever you want, the Creation line of spells (and Fabricate) can be manifested ad nauseam, and the ACFs are rather cool as well. Trinket is especially fun.

AslanCross
2011-01-08, 02:03 AM
Shadow Conjuration doesn't seem like it needs too much creativity though. I mean, it seems to me as just a way for a specialist who banned Conjuration to get a few of the spells. Same goes for Shadow Evocation. the Image line is a good idea, though.


My thinking is that Shadow Conjuration allows you to improvise on the fly, and not "I prepare Shadow Conjuration so I can have Glitterdust ready without learning it." I think that's got to count for some creative use.

Enterti
2011-01-08, 02:21 AM
If you start as a wizard there is a feat called collegiate wizard on p 181 of complete arcane. It requires you to be a first lv wizard with an int of 13 and starts you off with 6 spells plus one per point of int modifier rather than three, you then learn 4 spells at each new level. To top it off you get a +2 to all knowledge arcana checks.

Soren Hero
2011-01-08, 02:31 AM
i remember reading somewhere about a class called the hedge wizard..i think it was in a third party book or something. IIRC by level 9 or 10 it could cast cantrips at will...i think its stupid, personally, because by allowing one houserule to 3.5 that's in pathfinder, u can cast all ur cantrips at will anyway

Enterti
2011-01-08, 02:42 AM
i remember reading somewhere about a class called the hedge wizard..i think it was in a third party book or something. IIRC by level 9 or 10 it could cast cantrips at will...i think its stupid, personally, because by allowing one houserule to 3.5 that's in pathfinder, u can cast all ur cantrips at will anyway
yeah its called Hedge Wizard out of a book by the same name at ninth level it spontaneously casts cantrips, but at has a sharp decline in slots from there, by lv 20 it only casts one 8th level per day. other than that it has D6 hit die can select a few cantrips to be permanently quickened at no adjustment(level 16) and has a medium BAB

SamsDisciple
2011-01-08, 09:58 AM
I really like your concept and for a build you could honestly do any build you wanted but you would need to get creative on your own as a player. I agree that the shadow lines would work great. Lastly I know its in pathfinder but not as sure about d&d there are several feats of combining spells in order like first cold then sonic and the sonic gets bonus damage and a higher dc. Also there are tactical feats in pathfinder dealing with metamagic but you wont find them on the srd you need the actual books.

Ravens_cry
2011-01-08, 11:18 AM
If you want to be really creative, try looking into spell creation. This, for me, is one of the most fun thing to do as wizard, inventing spells.
I've invented a spell to detect disease and a spell to create illusionary beer
that only gets me drunk. If I play a wizard again, I will do it again.

SamsDisciple
2011-01-08, 11:47 AM
That actually reminded me of another way to do it would be to work with the more obscure status ailments like sickened or confused or deafen. Those can be surprisingly effective and takes some creative thought to make it the best.

AyeGill
2011-01-08, 11:58 AM
Focused Illusionist 10/Master Specialist 10.
You have illusions. Creativity is like an insta-win button for you.

Unrest
2011-01-08, 12:24 PM
The dabblemaster. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=160062&highlight=dabblemaster) It's a low-power class, so you can tweak it a bit*, and DAMN man it requires creativity. If not for the power level, it would be the most fun to play class I've ever seen. There's also a physical-combat variant, the Hitjacker. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=163949) Clearly, M-Bark is just that awesome.

* I'd start with just doubling the number of things it gets. If that still makes it not powerful enough, triple it. The concept itself I feel is alright.