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Sarakos
2011-01-07, 09:05 PM
I've posted a couple times here for world-building advice for my first time ever DMing a campaign. Now this needy little halfling comes back to the Playground for questing advice :)

What I have in mind is the PC's starting off in a pseudo-vikingish town where they hear rumors of a lich thats taken up residence in an old abandoned Keep. Their job is obviously to go up there and stop him.

About the lich:
The Lich is a 400 year old Wizard who is attempting to achieve true immortality, not simply becoming one of the undead. Realizing that such a feat would require many more years of research than his human lifespan would allow, he conceded to becoming a lich as a stepping stone to acheiving said true immortality.

*Note: by True immortality I mean looking acting and BEING like any normal person you might meet in a town except for the fact that you know, you cant die :P

Now, this Lich has lived in the old Keep for nearly all 400 years of his lichdom and is in fact the reason it was abandoned. The last master of the keep had very stern views on the undead and would have been greatly displeased to find that his Wizard was researching ways to become one of the undead. So when the ritual was complete and the Wizard became a Lich, he slaughtered the garrison and raised them as his minions to perform menial tasks and guard him.

The nearby town had numerous stories passed down over generations about the Haunted Keep, some even mentioning that a Lich lived there. These were all dismissed as superstitious tales to scare children but nevertheless, the townsfolk gave the Keep a wide berth. All, with the exception of the occasional youngster or group of youngsters who would spend a night in the old keep on a dare.

The Lich had kept a very low profile during his years at the Keep. He kept his undead away from the outer areas of the Keep and instead had them trapped so that when the occasional young adult came by a trap would snare him a warm body for his research and he could reanimate whatever remained when he was done.

He did not take or kill every little daredevil that came to his keep. It was important that he not be disturbed and equally important that he have a steady supply of warm bodies for his research, these headstrong kids and their dares were too perfect to ruin. If everyone who came to the keep disappeared, his supply would run out as children realized it was best not to go anywhere near the keep. But if the occasional youngster survived to tell his friends that there was nothing to fear of the abandoned old keep, then these young kids would keep offering themselves as sacrifices to his research.

It is only recently, as the Lich finally neared a breakthrough, that he began raiding the town for people with his skeletal soldiers. It is then that townsfolk realized that the old wives' tale about a Lich in the keep were true

tl;dr
I need help building a Lich, I'm not used to spellcasters, I've dabbled with them in some one shot campaigns but I generally enjoy playing the BSF more. Since this is the beginning of the campaign the players have yet to roll characters, based on past experience with them I expect a pair of clerics and a sorcerer, only the sorcerer has a good idea of how to optimize and fortunately prefers to play blasty characters anyway. The two clerics will likely play as one healbot/tank and the other as a pure caster DPS. Im thinking of starting them at about level 8 with normal (possibly a bit more if i see aneed for it) WBL. Also i apologize for not yet having thought of names for anything yet xD

Gray Mage
2011-01-07, 09:14 PM
What level would the lich be? And what books can be used?

Sarakos
2011-01-07, 09:19 PM
Sorry, I forgot to post that. Ive got core Pathfinder and the APG as well as the Bestiary and free bonus bestiary. Was planning to put the lich at around 10-11

KillianHawkeye
2011-01-07, 10:55 PM
Was planning to put the lich at around 10-11

Unless they changed it from 3.5, a Lich needs a minimum caster level of 11 to create the phylactery. Plus, I'd imagine he'd gain a few more levels after 400 years.

Sarakos
2011-01-07, 11:42 PM
Unless they changed it from 3.5, a Lich needs a minimum caster level of 11 to create the phylactery. Plus, I'd imagine he'd gain a few more levels after 400 years.

Its still about level 10 to make a phylactery but your right, a Lich would gain more levels, but then i would have to up the PCs level to about 9-10 to the Liches 12-13

Kol Korran
2011-01-08, 06:23 AM
i have just recently began playing PF over PbP, so i'm basing most of my advice on 3.5. here are a few thoughts as to spells:
Protective and summoning
1) wall of force: will keep the players away while the lich summons creatures
2) summon creature X (i suggest 1 or two of the higher levels, just to keep the party occupied.
3) globe of invulnerabilty lesser or greater(to keep at least some of the sorcerers spells away)
4) the usuall tricks: mage armor, protection from energy, magic mirror and the like.
5) the all impiortent- dispel magic (or if you're using 6th level spells, greater dispel magic), take down those annoying buffs the party has learned to rely upon.

offensive/ battle control
6) evard's black tentacles- to root the party in place, makes casting harder (if i remember correctly)
7) enervation: gains 1d4 negative levels? yes please! a very necromatic spell..
8) cone of cold: can shoot with undead in the middle. most are immune to cold, right?
9) ray of enfeeblement, an amazingly effective spell for such a level, especially against low str characters.

if you do use 6th level spells, don't forget
10) contingency. assume he has scried on the party, (or got reports of battles with them), and therefor he knows how to counteract their fighting styles.

and if you plan on getting away
11) teleport

i hope this helped,
Kol.

KillianHawkeye
2011-01-08, 06:36 AM
Its still about level 10 to make a phylactery but your right, a Lich would gain more levels, but then i would have to up the PCs level to about 9-10 to the Liches 12-13

So put enough traps and undead in the way for them to gain a level before they reach the Lich. Or start them off at level 9 instead of level 8. This is not a difficult problem.

Sarakos
2011-01-08, 10:51 AM
@Kol thy was extremely helpful. Most stuff stayed the same in pathfinder but I'll double check your spell suggestions to make sure.

@Killian it's not too big of a problem, I'm just wary of the level 10ish area. This same Sorc (our usual DM) ended one attempt at a campaign I tried before it even began. He dominated a BBEG when he came out to give his speech of doom in the first 15 minutes of the first session (rolled a 1 on the will save and didn't yet have a screeen so players could see my rolls). They were level 10 then as well

We've been alternating DMs but keeping the same characterrs who steadily level towards epic levels, sometimes addig a free level a the start of a new DMs campaign. I'm back tracking a bit by putting them at 8-9 butthey largely would only object to starting at level 1

Gray Mage
2011-01-08, 10:51 AM
Or make them find the phylactery first.

KillianHawkeye
2011-01-08, 11:42 AM
I'm just wary of the level 10ish area. This same Sorc (our usual DM) ended one attempt at a campaign I tried before it even began. He dominated a BBEG when he came out to give his speech of doom in the first 15 minutes of the first session (rolled a 1 on the will save and didn't yet have a screeen so players could see my rolls). They were level 10 then as well

A) Don't let one bad experience get you down. That stuff just happens sometimes. The one thing that's important for a DM is the ability to improvise, because things will never go according to plan.

B) A Lich is immune to most instant lose abilities, including dominate. They also can't be killed unless the phylactery is also found and destroyed, and after 400 years he better have it hidden pretty well.

Mojo_Rat
2011-01-08, 11:50 AM
i have just recently began playing PF over PbP, so i'm basing most of my advice on 3.5. here are a few thoughts as to spells:
Protective and summoning
1) wall of force: will keep the players away while the lich summons creatures
2) summon creature X (i suggest 1 or two of the higher levels, just to keep the party occupied.
3) globe of invulnerabilty lesser or greater(to keep at least some of the sorcerers spells away)
4) the usuall tricks: mage armor, protection from energy, magic mirror and the like.
5) the all impiortent- dispel magic (or if you're using 6th level spells, greater dispel magic), take down those annoying buffs the party has learned to rely upon.

offensive/ battle control
6) evard's black tentacles- to root the party in place, makes casting harder (if i remember correctly)
7) enervation: gains 1d4 negative levels? yes please! a very necromatic spell..
8) cone of cold: can shoot with undead in the middle. most are immune to cold, right?
9) ray of enfeeblement, an amazingly effective spell for such a level, especially against low str characters.

if you do use 6th level spells, don't forget
10) contingency. assume he has scried on the party, (or got reports of battles with them), and therefor he knows how to counteract their fighting styles.

and if you plan on getting away
11) teleport

i hope this helped,
Kol.



The above advice is all good. I wanted to mention on some of the changes for Pf in regards to the above advice.


Wall of force can be damaged or destroyed now. this is something the players and dm should be aware of now.


With the Combat Maneuver rules Black Tentacles can be pretty nasty. it will either incapacitate people completely or force them to blow escape spells.(like Dimension Door Etc) prematurely so works great for that

i would also recommend reading over all of the Save or Suck or Save or Die spells a number of them have changed in Pf to work a little differently.

Sarakos
2011-01-08, 04:10 PM
The above advice is all good. I wanted to mention on some of the changes for Pf in regards to the above advice.


Wall of force can be damaged or destroyed now. this is something the players and dm should be aware of now.


With the Combat Maneuver rules Black Tentacles can be pretty nasty. it will either incapacitate people completely or force them to blow escape spells.(like Dimension Door Etc) prematurely so works great for that

i would also recommend reading over all of the Save or Suck or Save or Die spells a number of them have changed in Pf to work a little differently.

Ok thanks, i know most of the buff spells (invisibility) got their durations nerfed but I don't know too much about the others.

I don't plan on letting them find the phylactery this time around. I would however like to leave a trap behind when the Lich flees or is destroyed. Id like to leave some notes saying the Lich had completed his research and found a way to achieve true immortality leaving behind an elixir, notes on a ritual and whatever other fluff things i can come up with. This wouldn't be a trap to lure a greedy player into completing the ritual/drinking the elixir/whatever. What I'm curious is, if they make a spell craft check to identify it what should the DC be to successfully realize its a trap. Any tips on the effects of the trap would be helpful too. I'd rather not have this trap outright kill a character but severely inconvenience- hurt to within an inch of his life would be nice.

Thanks in advance :D

Fable Wright
2011-01-08, 04:48 PM
First, enchant the notes with a Sepia Snake Sigil and Explosive Runes (which is intended to destroy the note, but a proper Mending or Make Whole spell might render the page legible again. It lends credibility to the note if it attempts to self-destruct). The Elixer might be a potion that causes the drinker to be find for several rounds, after which, they enter a state of suspended animation, such as described in Sepia Snake Sigil's description. They get to be immortal, for a while (or permanently, if you choose to make it a SoS effect), but easily taken down when the lich comes back a week later, which is how it was intended to work. Include multiple doses in there, as well, as multiple assailants would be an easily seen outcome by the lich.

Sarakos
2011-01-08, 06:01 PM
First, enchant the notes with a Sepia Snake Sigil and Explosive Runes (which is intended to destroy the note, but a proper Mending or Make Whole spell might render the page legible again. It lends credibility to the note if it attempts to self-destruct). The Elixer might be a potion that causes the drinker to be find for several rounds, after which, they enter a state of suspended animation, such as described in Sepia Snake Sigil's description. They get to be immortal, for a while (or permanently, if you choose to make it a SoS effect), but easily taken down when the lich comes back a week later, which is how it was intended to work. Include multiple doses in there, as well, as multiple assailants would be an easily seen outcome by the lich.

I really like this. After reading up on the sigil I decided to use the Sepia on the book with secret page to disguise it from detect magic. Whether it gets someone or not, the players will think they had disabled the traps and probably attempt to read his notes. This would be when they discover that the last page had been ripped out, searching the corpse of the Lich they would find a folded note ripped from book in one of his pockets, on it would read a quote from the one who inspired me to even give full casters a dabble "Guess who prepared explosive runes this morning?"

Gamblerjoe
2011-01-09, 01:53 PM
@Killian it's not too big of a problem, I'm just wary of the level 10ish area. This same Sorc (our usual DM) ended one attempt at a campaign I tried before it even began. He dominated a BBEG when he came out to give his speech of doom in the first 15 minutes of the first session (rolled a 1 on the will save and didn't yet have a screeen so players could see my rolls). They were level 10 then as well

as an old DDO player im a big fan of "orange names" and "red names". orange names are mini-bosses. they are like bosses in pnp. they have a higher CR than their minions, and maybe some bonus HP, but thats it. the red names are the bosses. typically each instance would have only one. they have a list of immunities which includes just about anything that would end them too quickly, or render them unable to attack. the list includes charm, domination, paralysis, stun, poison, ability damage, etc. the only thing that works on bosses is HP damage and most debuffs (bane, crushing despair etc).

anyway, most of my DnD group play DDO or at least know about this system. they fully expect that any boss "tough enough to monologue" (another phrase that has become a running gag in our group) is going to be a red name. i dont just phone it in like they do in video games though. i give them buffs, items or proximity to an aura that grants them those immunities.

protection from good will make your BBEG immune to domination. your powergaming sorc might always go with TN for this reason, but there are other items and spells that can help. you can also make up items to deal with this. the sorc may not like it when he wastes a spell, but the party will love it when they eventually get that sweet helm.

lol, one time my BBEG was a mind flayer sorc. one of the characters brought along an arrow of aberration slaying just to give it a try. he had death ward, so when the arrow hit i rolled a die behind the screen and said "he doesn't die." when i glanced at the die, he would have failed. his fort save was terrible. i told the party this later when we were talking about the battle, and we all had a good laugh. i wouldnt want to run a game for anyone who couldnt laugh about that. especially when it was a really long, tough battle against just a single enemy.