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Undead_Kai
2011-01-07, 09:07 PM
I'm a level 6 Black Guard, and I don't know what to gestalt on the other side.
Since I use a short bow sometimes people have suggested scout or ranger, but I want to balance myself out, any ideas?

Vulaas
2011-01-07, 09:24 PM
Factotum is always a nice one to gestalt with.

Kylarra
2011-01-07, 09:32 PM
What are your stats and such? I'd probably recommend an evil cleric if you have a decent Wis.

Undead_Kai
2011-01-07, 09:41 PM
What are your stats and such? I'd probably recommend an evil cleric if you have a decent Wis.

STR 16
DEX 24
CON 16
INT 19
WIS 19
CHA 37

Hp 129
AC 22

Touch 16
Flat 16

Initiative 11

Fort 21
Ref 22
Will 23

Bang!
2011-01-07, 09:42 PM
Level 6 Blackguard means a Paladin variant, right? I'd probably go with Ardent, and grab the Serenity feat (which bases Paladin abilities off Wis instead of Cha). With some appropriate mantles, this will make you better at what you already do (hit things with sticks) and give you a slew of other options.

Or Cleric. It's based off the same stats as the Blackguard (with slightly different priorities) and it is generally much better than the Blackguard at the Blackguard's schtick.

Binder would be fun for a Charisma-based character. It would net some extra versatility and add a bit of extra oomph to your defenses, without jumping up to the spellcasting game.

I would probably try Spellthief for this (for its Charisma synergy, skills, complementary saves and tagalong effects on melee attacks), but it's honestly pretty awful.

Undead_Kai
2011-01-07, 09:48 PM
I'm playing the pathfinder version of Blackguard.
Because our dm was ok with that.

I was trying to find something low magic...

Kylarra
2011-01-07, 09:55 PM
You've already got full BAB, decent HD and such, what you really want are support abilities to support your fighting prowess. For lack of a better way to put it, a mundane class would synergize less well than a full caster of some sort.

Undead_Kai
2011-01-07, 09:58 PM
You've already got full BAB, decent HD and such, what you really want are support abilities to support your fighting prowess. For lack of a better way to put it, a mundane class would synergize less well than a full caster of some sort.

Well, that's why I asked, I wanted to do what's best...

Greenish
2011-01-07, 09:58 PM
You've already got full BAB, decent HD and such, what you really want are support abilities to support your fighting prowess. For lack of a better way to put it, a mundane class would synergize less well than a full caster of some sort.Well, a swordsage could be excellent, but how "mundane" that is is questionable.

I can't find Blackguard from PF SRD, do you mean Antipaladin?

Undead_Kai
2011-01-07, 10:03 PM
Well, a swordsage could be excellent, but how "mundane" that is is questionable.

I can't find Blackguard from PF SRD, do you mean Antipaladin?

Yes. :smallsmile:

HunterOfJello
2011-01-07, 10:21 PM
The Antipaladin has spellcasting and class abilities based on Charisma while keeping up a high Strength and Constitution.

The two spellcasting classes that make use of Charisma are the Favored Soul and Sorcerer. The Bard class also benefits well from a high charisma score and got some nice upgrades in Pathfinder. There's also the Dread Necromancer and Warmage classes if you're willing to wear light armor.

Any ToB class could improve your melee capabilities. The Swordsage would probably come out at the top of my list because you already benefit from Full BAB and a high HD.

~

If you're interested in spellcasting, then I'd go the Favored Soul route. It's not the most ideal class, but you would be able to cast spells using charisma with ease while wearing full plate. Otherwise, the Swordsage could make an excellent gestalt combo giving you a high reflex save along with skill points and more maneuvers than you can shake your sword at.

Undead_Kai
2011-01-07, 10:26 PM
Light armor isn't a problem, we were playing a greek flavored campaign.
But then we basically used all the story up, so now we're Spell Jamming.
Which messed me up, because he ruled little to no magic, so I sacrificed my spells for feats with the the levels in Blackguard. And now I guess we need magic, but Idk how Spell Jamming works....so...I guess i'm not confined to low magic anymore.

2xMachina
2011-01-08, 09:36 AM
Spell Jammer is the one with the spaceships?

Anyway, pack Sorc in? Sorcadin is a pretty common build.

grimbold
2011-01-08, 09:44 AM
STR 16
DEX 24
CON 16
INT 19
WIS 19
CHA 37

Hp 129
AC 22

Touch 16
Flat 16

Initiative 11

Fort 21
Ref 22
Will 23
assuming the 37 CHA was not a typo, you may want to be a sorceror, but evil cleric is always a good option

Psychonix
2011-01-08, 10:51 AM
A charisma of 37?
I would personally think about giving mountebank a go (Dragon #65/Dragon Compendium).

Mountebanks get the ability beguiling stare, will save (10 +1/2 mountebank +Cha mod) or lose dex to AC take -2 to will saves and -5 to sense motive.
They can then use deceptive attack against creatures that they have beguiled or feinted. Basically sneak attack that works against everything, as long as it is beguiled or has been successfully feinted.
They can also gain infernal powers equal to half their level + cha mod each day. One of these is mass beguile, everything in a cone in front of you must make the will save against beguiling or become beguiled for a number of rounds equal to your cha mod.

As a standard action you cause nearly every enemy in front of you to lose its dex bonus to AC for 13 rounds.

Gnaeus
2011-01-08, 11:21 AM
The two spellcasting classes that make use of Charisma are the Favored Soul and Sorcerer. The Bard class also benefits well from a high charisma score and got some nice upgrades in Pathfinder. There's also the Dread Necromancer and Warmage classes if you're willing to wear light armor.

Don't forget Oracle and Summoner. Oracle doesn't have arcane spell failure, summoner would let you steal traits from your eidolon. Either one would work well.

Jack_Simth
2011-01-08, 11:40 AM
I'm playing the pathfinder version of Blackguard.
Because our dm was ok with that.

I was trying to find something low magic...
Ah... unless it's specifically a low-magic campaign, that's not a good idea.

See, it's a matter of power curves - fighter-types are rather strong at lower levels, and relatively weak at higher levels. Skill types are about average at all levels. Caster types are fairly weak at low levels, but can pretty much own the game at high levels.

So when you're gestalting, you want a full caster on one side for long-term viability.

2xMachina
2011-01-08, 12:12 PM
For Gestalt, I always liked Fighter-type//Caster. Strong at all levels. Also gets you a caster with high HD and good saves all around.

Gnaeus
2011-01-08, 12:17 PM
So when you're gestalting, you want a full caster on one side for long-term viability.

Or at least a partial caster, like a bard or summoner, or a caster-like thing, like a ToB adept or a binder.

It isn't just for power curves, it also is about utility. A blackguard is likely to be awesome in combat, and the 37 cha will make you good at social encounters, but you want something to do if your weapon breaks or you can't hit the enemy or it has unbeatable DR or your combat schtick fails. You probably want a method of flight (especially spelljamming), some good buffs, some battlefield control, maybe even a touch of self healing. Always have at least 3 useful things that you can do in combat that are as different as possible, especially in gestalt, and the more different those things are the better.

If you really don't want a caster, here are 2 more thoughts...

Rogue would give you lots of skill points to raise your utility, sneak attack to spike your damage, and evasion (combined with your high cha) to make you immune to most reflex saves (or combine with Pious Templar or Hexblade or anything else that gives Mettle to be immune to anything with a saving throw) . Anything else that you are having trouble dealing with can be covered with use magic device.

Or, depending on the DM's rules on such things, see if Monster classes or templates or + LA races are available. Most are underpowered in general, but if allowed as 1/2 of a gestalt they can be very strong.

Jack_Simth
2011-01-08, 12:34 PM
It isn't just for power curves, it also is about utility. To a goodly extent, utility *is* power. When you can fly up out of range of the melee guy attacking you and hit him with ranged effects, he's sunk unless he can duplicate one of the two tricks used to a degree (flight, ranged attacks). It doesn't matter how quickly you can damage him, as long as you can.

Gnaeus
2011-01-08, 12:46 PM
To a goodly extent, utility *is* power. When you can fly up out of range of the melee guy attacking you and hit him with ranged effects, he's sunk unless he can duplicate one of the two tricks used to a degree (flight, ranged attacks). It doesn't matter how quickly you can damage him, as long as you can.

They are similar, but not the same. A 10th level ubercharger who does infinite damage is more powerful than a 3rd level rogue or wizard or cleric, but may have less utility. A tier 1 wizard is no more powerful than a tier 2 sorcerer (at even numbered levels). They cast the same level spells, at the same caster level (technically, with spells like wings of flurry the sorcerer may be more powerful). But the Wizard has more utility.

peacenlove
2011-01-08, 06:11 PM
Since you have high Intelligence and Charisma i would suggest shadowcaster from Tome of Magic.

Go for Still Mystery feat (Allows casting on armor and while grappled, sorcerer needs to blow a spell level more to do that) and you are one caster level ahead from any other spontaneous caster.

Also the mysteries are harder to dispel, and he has a really good defensive list (Shadow dance >= greater invisibility, Umbral touch makes a nice backup weapon when you become disarmed, Afraid of the dark is a nice debuff, clinging shadow can freeze multiple melee enemies and so on)

AyeGill
2011-01-08, 06:16 PM
Since you have high Intelligence and Charisma i would suggest shadowcaster from Tome of Magic.

Go for Still Mystery feat (Allows casting on armor and while grappled, sorcerer needs to blow a spell level more to do that) and you are one caster level ahead from any other spontaneous caster.

Also the mysteries are harder to dispel, and he has a really good defensive list (Shadow dance >= greater invisibility, Umbral touch makes a nice backup weapon when you become disarmed, Afraid of the dark is a nice debuff, clinging shadow can freeze multiple melee enemies and so on)

I'd recommend against this, as the shadowcaster is ridiculously underpowered. At that charisma, i'd say either a Dread Necromancer(yay evil flavor synergy and casting in light armor! yay army of undead equal to Caster Level * 17. Jesus Christ). Or a Sorcerer going for malconvoker, focusing on summoning and calling.

peacenlove
2011-01-08, 06:20 PM
I'd recommend against this, as the shadowcaster is ridiculously underpowered. At that charisma, i'd say either a Dread Necromancer(yay evil flavor synergy and casting in light armor! yay army of undead equal to Caster Level * 17. Jesus Christ). Or a Sorcerer going for malconvoker, focusing on summoning and calling.

Good call with the dread necromancer.
I then take back what i said and await an image of the battlefield with your controlled minions :smallamused:
Malconvoker however IIRC is non-evil though.

AyeGill
2011-01-08, 06:25 PM
Good call with the dread necromancer.
I then take back what i said and await an image of the battlefield with your controlled minions :smallamused:

Picture the battle of thermopylae, with all the persians replaced by skeletons. Alternatively, picture the same battle, with all the spartans replaced with Balor Zombies. With all the buff spells our Wizard/sorcerer/UM cohort can manage.

Jack_Simth
2011-01-08, 07:08 PM
They are similar, but not the same. A 10th level ubercharger who does infinite damage is more powerful than a 3rd level rogue or wizard or cleric, but may have less utility. A tier 1 wizard is no more powerful than a tier 2 sorcerer (at even numbered levels). They cast the same level spells, at the same caster level (technically, with spells like wings of flurry the sorcerer may be more powerful). But the Wizard has more utility.

I did include 'to a goodly extent'. Yes, there's some differences. But that third level rogue will slaughter the ubercharger if the rogue can arrange for the ubercharger to be unable to detect him (Yes, Hide does include the option for doing so while killing someone... you just take a pretty massive penalty to the Hide check).

Undead_Kai
2011-01-08, 07:51 PM
Spell Jammer is the one with the spaceships?

Anyway, pack Sorc in? Sorcadin is a pretty common build.
Yes it's the one with the spaceships. We are using a Galleon as our starter ship, and defeated the crew of another smaller ship, and are using it as well.:)

woodenbandman
2011-01-08, 08:48 PM
well, with that charisma, I'd say bard or sorceror or something.

Undead_Kai
2011-01-11, 11:53 PM
Thanks for all the advice.