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Rainbownaga
2011-01-07, 11:29 PM
Vorpal weapons have a flat 5% chance per hit (not attack) of decapitating vulnerable enemies. They are naturally thrown in alongside SoD's as anticlimactic and unpredictable.

And yet a dc15 Fortitude save has a flat 5% chance of killing anything with a fort of 14 or greater, and more for anything that has less than that. And all it needs is dealing 50 or more damage with a single hit.

50 damage seems like a lot, but from the forums it seems that this is the thing that 2 handed fighters should be doing reliably in higher levels (way before vorpal weapons are affordable).

So how come the instant death from maximised fireballs and lucky power attacks never comes into it? Do people ignore the massive damage rules, is it subsumed in all the instant-kill effects that other characters are dishing out, or is there something else going on?

true_shinken
2011-01-07, 11:31 PM
Vorpal is seen as underwhelming not because it's unpredictable, but because it's too expensive.

Urpriest
2011-01-07, 11:34 PM
I thought that saves don't autofail on a 1?

HunterOfJello
2011-01-07, 11:36 PM
Many groups ignore the massive damage rule or create house rules so that it exists in a different format. They may ignore the constant value of 50 damage and use the scaling damage amounts based on size. Also, some groups don't use the auto-failure rule of rolling a 1 on a save.

I think that each of these is likely to be ignored if the group in question isn't fully aware of all of the rules.


I thought that saves don't autofail on a 1?


http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Saving_Throw



Automatic Failures and Successes

A natural 1 (the d20 comes up 1) on a saving throw is always a failure (and may cause damage to exposed items; see Items Surviving after a Saving Throw). A natural 20 (the d20 comes up 20) is always a success.

The Glyphstone
2011-01-07, 11:36 PM
I thought that saves don't autofail on a 1?

Saves and attack rolls fail on 1's. Anything else does not by default.

true_shinken
2011-01-07, 11:37 PM
I thought that saves don't autofail on a 1?
They do. That's the reason why Steadfast Determination and Diamond Mind save replacements are so good.

Sine
2011-01-07, 11:43 PM
Do people ignore the massive damage rules?
Mostly this. I can't remember ever playing a game where we actually rolled massive damage saves.

Telonius
2011-01-07, 11:46 PM
Vorpal weapons have a flat 5% chance per hit (not attack) of decapitating vulnerable enemies.

It's not even that good. For Vorpal to activate, you have to both roll a 20, and confirm the critical hit. (Lots of people forget that second part).

true_shinken
2011-01-07, 11:48 PM
It's not even that good. For Vorpal to activate, you have to both roll a 20, and confirm the critical hit. (Lots of people forget that second part).

I think that's exactly what he meant with 5% per hit.

Gralamin
2011-01-08, 12:31 AM
It's not even that good. For Vorpal to activate, you have to both roll a 20, and confirm the critical hit. (Lots of people forget that second part).

Confirming the critical shouldn't be hard, but it drops it from a 5% chance down to maybe a 4% chance (assuming 80% chance to confirm). It's small enough not to matter. However, it obviously doesn't work on Undead, Constructs, Slimes, Elementals, or anything without a discernible head. Very weak.



Massive Damage can make things a Save or die, but it's a very weak save or die: You have to hit and they need to fail against a small save DC. Add in some common ways to not fail on a 1 (Steadfast Determination, Diamond Mind), and it's negated. Not to mention that if you just aren't hit they can't kill you (Miss chance, high AC, Flight, etc.), or if you reduce the damage it won't effect you (Ironguard, Stone Skin, DR, etc.). You are generally better off betting on killing things with damage then Massive damage.

Massive Damage is also like the rules for damaging items if you roll a 1 on against a damaging spell: Very few people actually use them, because they matter in play so rarely.

Runestar
2011-01-08, 12:36 AM
My group largely ignored it because it slowed down the game with near-pointless die rolling (as noted, you will make it 95% of the time, so why bother?)

Eldariel
2011-01-08, 12:37 AM
So how come the instant death from maximised fireballs and lucky power attacks never comes into it? Do people ignore the massive damage rules, is it subsumed in all the instant-kill effects that other characters are dishing out, or is there something else going on?

I'd like to remind you that massive damage rules are specifically a variant, not the default. And they're pretty "meh" for all intents and purposes in my books.

Claudius Maximus
2011-01-08, 12:39 AM
I'd like to remind you that massive damage rules are specifically a variant, not the default. And they're pretty "meh" for all intents and purposes in my books.

I'm afraid not. Massive damage is RAW (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/injuryanddeath.htm).

Personally I decided to cut the massive damage rule just last session, since my PCs were calling for (and rolling their own) massive damage saves like every round. And the only result of a failure would be an anticlimax.

Eldariel
2011-01-08, 12:46 AM
I'm afraid not. Massive damage is RAW (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/injuryanddeath.htm).

Oh yeah, the "slightly more sensible" variant of it (account for size) is the variant. My bad. Lulz.

EDIT: Apparently I somehow succeeded in doubleposting with a server fail :smallsigh:

Rainbownaga
2011-01-08, 12:59 AM
Confirming the critical shouldn't be hard, but it drops it from a 5% chance down to maybe a 4% chance (assuming 80% chance to confirm). It's small enough not to matter. However, it obviously doesn't work on Undead, Constructs, Slimes, Elementals, or anything without a discernible head. Very weak.


Just as a nitpick

I've done the maths, except in very rare scenarios, it is a 5% chance per hit; the more likely you are to hit, the more likely you are to confirm and vice verca.

true_shinken
2011-01-08, 01:08 AM
I've done the maths, except in very rare scenarios, it is a 5% chance per hit; the more likely you are to hit, the more likely you are to confirm and vice verca.
In a vorpal case, you are as likely to hit as to crit. Your confirmation roll is like the normal attack roll, since vorpal only triggers on a natural 20 anyway.
The OP is correct. It's 5% on a hit, because the confirmation is the hit.

drakir_nosslin
2011-01-08, 01:12 AM
Just as a nitpick

I've done the maths, except in very rare scenarios, it is a 5% chance per hit; the more likely you are to hit, the more likely you are to confirm and vice verca.

Out of curiosity, how did you do it?

true_shinken
2011-01-08, 01:13 AM
Oh yeah, the "slightly more sensible" variant of it (account for size) is the variant. My bad. Lulz.

You already said that, dude.

Claudius Maximus
2011-01-08, 01:41 AM
Out of curiosity, how did you do it?

I haven't done any math, but it stands to reason that since any natural 20 will hit, the probability of Vorpal snicker-snacking is equal to 5% of your chance to hit, since you use that as your confirmation roll.

Akal Saris
2011-01-08, 02:50 AM
Eh, my group is aware of the massive damage rule and doesn't use it because it's a stupid rule.

Gralamin
2011-01-08, 03:06 AM
Just as a nitpick

I've done the maths, except in very rare scenarios, it is a 5% chance per hit; the more likely you are to hit, the more likely you are to confirm and vice verca.

Well, not necessarily. The Warblade, for instance, has abilities which increases his chance to confirm criticals, but does not increase his chance to do a normal hit. However, I was using 80% as a nice low "worst case" chance number, knowing 3.5 accuracy levels. Taking that you need to roll a 20 (5% chance) and then confirm the critical (which is a separate roll) we have:

0.05 * 0.8 = 0.04, or a 4% chance.

However, in 3.5, you can achieve up to a 95% hit chance (A natural 1 is always a miss), which gives us a maximum of:

0.05 * 0.95 = 0.0475, or a 4.75% chance

If we wanted to look at the very worst case, someone we had no chance against and relying on 20s to hit, we would have:

0.05*0.05 = 0.0025, or a 0.25% chance.

As you might expect, this can be generalized based on the number you need to roll on the d20 to confirm:

If you require X (Max 20, min 2) to confirm on a d20 roll, you have a:
(20-X+1)/20 chance of confirming. You also need to roll a 20 in the first place:

(20-X+1)/20 * 1 / 20 = (21-X)/400 = 0.0525 - 0.0025*X = 5.25% - 0.25%*X.

At least, if you want the rigorous maths :smalltongue:

J.Gellert
2011-01-08, 03:32 AM
Massive Damage can make things a Save or die, but it's a very weak save or die: You have to hit and they need to fail against a small save DC. Add in some common ways to not fail on a 1 (Steadfast Determination, Diamond Mind), and it's negated. Not to mention that if you just aren't hit they can't kill you (Miss chance, high AC, Flight, etc.), or if you reduce the damage it won't effect you (Ironguard, Stone Skin, DR, etc.). You are generally better off betting on killing things with damage then Massive damage.

While I agree with the general idea that damage is negated easily... Allow me a point of nitpicking: The ways to not-fail a save on a 1 are not common. There are... "not many" monsters in the tons of released monster books that have steadfast determination.

Just saying, since 2000, it hasn't even come up once in any game I've played.

Alleine
2011-01-08, 03:37 AM
Honestly, massive damage saves aren't amazing. I don't remember anyone failing one in my group, and people like to make hard hitters all the time. At the end of one campaign the Barbarian faced off with a double of himself and they basically traded massive damage saves each round. Both made it easily. No one seems to roll ones on those, ever.

Gralamin
2011-01-08, 03:49 AM
While I agree with the general idea that damage is negated easily... Allow me a point of nitpicking: The ways to not-fail a save on a 1 are not common. There are... "not many" monsters in the tons of released monster books that have steadfast determination.

Just saying, since 2000, it hasn't even come up once in any game I've played.

If you just used published monsters yes. However, these feats / abilities are not exactly uncommon choices - for PCs or custom NPCs. Obviously how good your custom NPCs are depends on your PCs optimization levels. Also some creatures, such as undead and constructs, automatically ignore Death Effects, which is an equivalent ability in this context (IE: having no chance of dying from an instant kill ability).

drakir_nosslin
2011-01-08, 04:56 AM
Math stuff

Thanks, I had a feeling that 5% was a bit off, but I didn't have time to confirm it (exams take a lot of time, especially when you actually have to study in order to make it :smallannoyed:)

ffone
2011-01-08, 05:57 AM
Thanks, I had a feeling that 5% was a bit off, but I didn't have time to confirm it (exams take a lot of time, especially when you actually have to study in order to make it :smallannoyed:)

Chance to hit = chance to confirm (given a threat), since it's the same attack mod vs the same AC.

If this chance is 'p', then prob of vorpal is

P(nat20) * P(confirm | nat20) = 0.05 *p

In any situation where your character's threats are always hits (for example, he threatens on 19-20 and 19 is a hit) ,the % of hits which crit is the threat range width / 20.

It's basically a clever way to have a certain % of hits be crits, without rolling a second die every time.

If you don't actually hit with your full threat range (more likely with a keen kukri/scimitar/rapier), the % of crits will be lower (at whatever width of threat range you actually hit).

grimbold
2011-01-08, 06:32 AM
Many groups ignore the massive damage rule or create house rules so that it exists in a different format. They may ignore the constant value of 50 damage and use the scaling damage amounts based on size. Also, some groups don't use the auto-failure rule of rolling a 1 on a save.

I think that each of these is likely to be ignored if the group in question isn't fully aware of all of the rules.




http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Saving_Throw

yes a lot of groups ignore this and i feel that it weakens melee classes. Also don't forget the clobbered rules in chapter 2 (i think) of the DMG which are handy at lower levels

Zergrusheddie
2011-01-08, 07:11 AM
I just never understood the point of it. If you are doing 50 damage a hit consistently enough for the rule to actually make a difference, you are going to be clearing enemies away fast enough for the rule not to matter. If a level 7 is doing 50 damage per hit with 3 hits, that's pretty much enough to kill your opponent. Past those levels it just seems like it's penalizing the target 5% of the time.

I can see how it would be annoying having the big uber dragon go down because of a bad roll but so many spells/abilities are like that anyway. Failing against a Save or Suck/Die/Lose or Disintegrate is likely to put you in a position where winning becomes infeasible.

I always considered the Massive Damage rule alongside the 20-20-20 rule. The odds of it happening are too slim to actually happen and all it is going to do is end in headaches for everyone at the table.

SoC175
2011-01-08, 07:21 AM
In a vorpal case, you are as likely to hit as to crit. Your confirmation roll is like the normal attack roll, since vorpal only triggers on a natural 20 anyway.
The OP is correct. It's 5% on a hit, because the confirmation is the hit. No, it's two seperate rolls. You can roll a 20 to score a hit and a threat and then roll a 2 to not confirm the threat.

Runestar
2011-01-08, 07:37 AM
While I agree with the general idea that damage is negated easily... Allow me a point of nitpicking: The ways to not-fail a save on a 1 are not common. There are... "not many" monsters in the tons of released monster books that have steadfast determination.

Just saying, since 2000, it hasn't even come up once in any game I've played.

Considering that steadfast determination is PHB2, I won't expect any monster to have it. That doesn't mean I can't give it to my monsters though, and I do in fact do it quite often to shore up their will saves.

That said, there are enough things to keep track of in dnd at mid+ lvs already. I am always on the lookout to simply/streamline combat, and rolling extra dice after every hit is definitely not a solution. :smallconfused:

true_shinken
2011-01-08, 09:20 AM
No, it's two seperate rolls. You can roll a 20 to score a hit and a threat and then roll a 2 to not confirm the threat.
You clearly didn't understand what I said.
The OP said "vorpal works 5% of the time on a hit".
People "no, it isn't, you have to confirm it".
I said "The OP is right. The confirmation roll is the same as an attak roll, and if it hits, then vorpal has a 5% chance of triggering".
Instead of looking it as 20 -> confirmation roll -> hit/kill, look at it as confirmation roll -> hit -> 20 -> kill.
It is indeed 5% of the time on a hit. What constitutes a hit in this case might change, but it doesn't matter. It is 5% of the time on a hit.

J.Gellert
2011-01-08, 09:48 AM
Considering that steadfast determination is PHB2, I won't expect any monster to have it. That doesn't mean I can't give it to my monsters though, and I do in fact do it quite often to shore up their will saves.

Precisely... It's not common. Even if you want to optimize, eh, it's still only suited to rather specific builds and no DM will bother with it much.

But of course, there is a point to make for forgetting the rule... I can only guess, but I am tempted to say that massive damage is one of the most often forgotten rules of 3rd edition.

Eldariel
2011-01-08, 09:56 AM
But of course, there is a point to make for forgetting the rule... I can only guess, but I am tempted to say that massive damage is one of the most often forgotten rules of 3rd edition.

I think it's more a case of everybody knowing about it and ignoring it, rather than not being aware of it.

To whomever said it helps melee, frankly, it's more like to hurt than to help melee. Casters can deal 50 damage on command if they feel like it, as can melee; casters are far less likely to be taking 50 damage often than melee which means this just gives melee a ton of random chances to die on a roll of 1 each campaign. And any such randomness works against the players in the long run (same with the 20-20-20 autokill).

true_shinken
2011-01-08, 10:01 AM
The point of the massive damage rule is to give an in-game reason to explain why characters with 200 hp worry about being shot with an arrow and stuff like that. 'Oh, wait, a crit could still deal 50+ damage and I could fail my Fortitude save and die'.
It's a small risk, but it's there. For my games, I usually use a much lower massive damage threshold. The problem about this is that Fortitude saves become even more important.

Runestar
2011-01-08, 08:51 PM
A static threshold of 50 damage doesn't seem to make much sense either. For a monster with say, 1000+ hp, 50 damage would probably represent a flesh wound at best. How is he in danger of dying from system shock or whatever you call it?

And how consistently can melee deal 50+ damage per hit anyways, barring optimized charger builds and the like? You are looking at what...3d6weapon+15str+5weapon+6focus+whatever you can power attack for, before accounting for dr. Martial adepts have no problem dealing 50+ damage, but it is only 1/round.

Fighters' damage output seems to come from making multiple attacks, not single attack that deal a load of damage. :smallconfused:

Temotei
2011-01-08, 09:02 PM
I think I've seen a variant in place where instead of death, you take a penalty when you fail the saving throw. I forgot what penalties they were, if the variant exists anywhere at all. It could be that I'm just making this up. Not sure. :smalltongue:

tyckspoon
2011-01-09, 12:10 AM
And how consistently can melee deal 50+ damage per hit anyways, barring optimized charger builds and the like? You are looking at what...3d6weapon+15str+5weapon+6focus+whatever you can power attack for, before accounting for dr. Martial adepts have no problem dealing 50+ damage, but it is only 1/round.


Your own numbers average to 36-37 points of damage without any Power Attack. With a 2-handed weapon, that's only 7 points needed to make the Massive Damage threshold.

Let's see.. Level 20 Fighter. He carries a Large +5 Holy Collision Greatsword (he's wearing a pair of Strong Arm Bracers, or maybe he's just a Powerful Build race.) Said Greatsword has a Lesser Energy Assault Crystal attached. He's doing 3d6 weapon base + 2d6 against an Evil foe + 1d6 energy +5, just from the weapon- that's an average 26. Let us also assume he is at least smart enough to focus his Strength, although possibly is not of a +Str race, and so likely has about a 30 Strength (16 start + 5 Inherent + 6 Enhance + 5 levels.. actually 32.) So.. 11 modifier plus two-hander bonus is another 16. 42 points of damage, average roll, and no feats or Power Attack have been applied yet. He's probably got Weapon Spec, Greater, and Weapon Mastery, because.. well, he's a Lvl20 Fighter, what the heck else is he gonna do with those feats? That's another 6 points static modifier. 48. Oh. And I just realized I actually forgot to include the +5 from the actual weapon base enhancement- that +5 up there is the Collision property. So 53 average damage, without Power Attacking at all. This dude is going to be causing Massive Damage checks quite regularly, and he's really not that optimized for the job; he's just a guy with a big sword who hits things with it.

Flickerdart
2011-01-09, 12:41 AM
Well, level 20, that's no fun at all.

Run of the mill 12th level half-orc Barbarian. 18 STR, +2 racial, +3 from levels, +6 item, +6 rage, +1 vicious shock frost greatsword with the lesser acid crystal means 7d6+19 damage any time he clobbers someone - average of 43 damage. He only needs to PA for 4 points to reach the 50 average, leaving him with more than enough to-hit to land blows on typical CR 12 encounters more often than not. Not even counting critical hits, haste, GMW, iterative attacks, other feats...

Terazul
2011-01-09, 12:56 AM
Well, level 20, that's no fun at all.
Not even counting critical hits, haste, GMW, iterative attacks, other feats...

Mounted +1 Valorous Lance Leap Attack Charges... It's really easy to do over 50 damage.

Also, unless I'm mistaken, 50 is only the massive damage threshold for medium creatures. It's higher the bigger you are.

stainboy
2011-01-09, 01:07 AM
I threatened my players with a massive damage save once. They were trying to figure out the level at which they could deliberately freefall out of an airship without any risk of dying. Falling damage caps at 20d6.

Zaq
2011-01-09, 01:31 AM
I believe that the houserule at my table is that you only trigger a massive damage save if you take more than 50% of your max HP on a single hit (I think—I forget the exact number). I don't remember what the save DC is, though. We pretty much just ignore it most of the time.