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Kuma Kode
2011-01-08, 07:21 AM
Like many people who deal with fantasy on a frequent basis, I have become rather bored with the classical elements of Air, Earth, Fire, and Water. I am looking for alternatives to spice things up, though in my admittedly shallow research I discovered that ancient people were not particularly imaginative, with many cultures and religions sharing the formula "Air, Earth, Fire, Water, possibly something spiritual here."

The most variant elemental system I have found is Wu Xing, which contains Fire, Earth, Wood, Metal, and Water, but that has a few holes that don't fit well into D&D's damage system.

So I ask the playground... what do you do when you want to spice up the Fundamentals of your universe?

Serpentine
2011-01-08, 07:37 AM
I use paraelementals...

What about emotion as the basic buildingblocks? Lust, joy, anger, and so on (hunger comes to mind, but I'm not sure if it really counts as an emotion).

kestrel404
2011-01-08, 07:39 AM
Well, if you want to go for a 'primitive science' or 'fallen science empire' feel, then you could use 'Solid, Liquid, Gas, Energy' - which is exactly like the standard 4, except less specific.

In a culture where metaphor is strongly used (or where everything is considered more complicated than normal), you could probably find the elements of "Light, Darkness, Life, Void, Ether". Everything is some combination of those five things - Fire is a combination of Light and Life, Water is a combination of Life and Ether, Air is Void and Ether, Earth is Darkness and Ether, Wood is Life and Ether, Metal is Light and Ether.

Then again, you could always go for the completely unrealistic (but wickedly funny) and say that the four elements in your universe are "Plot, Narrative, Context and Awesome".

Ichneumon
2011-01-08, 07:40 AM
Basically, you can have any element as long as it fits a "rock-paper-scissors"-construction. So, 3 or 5 elements is best, if you don't want one to be naturally superior to the others. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Pierre_ciseaux_feuille_l%C3%A9zard_spock.svg

For suggestions, you could add stuff like "poison", "acid", "bone" or "light". Or maybe twist stuff a bit, molding it so you have "close range poison" or "area of effect poison", one being the element of poisoned weapons, the other of clouds of poisonous gass?

akma
2011-01-08, 07:47 AM
A. Movement/motion, Conciousness/thoughts, souls, physicality (=physical form), life.
B. Sound, light, acid, destruction, lightning.
C. A bit methephorical things the world is built on: Society/unity, control, fear, willpower, greed. You can add more to fit the feel of the world (pain, false hopes, joy, etc).

Have you thought of how many elements do you want?

Edit: here are some more:
Power, luck, impulses, sense of self, frost, temperture, perfection, darkness, silence, senses.

Serpentine
2011-01-08, 07:54 AM
Oh, there's things like the humours. Black bile, yellow bile, and... I forget the third. You could adapt something from that.

Teron
2011-01-08, 08:07 AM
Oh, there's things like the humours. Black bile, yellow bile, and... I forget the third. You could adapt something from that.
Blood and phlegm, if memory serves as confirmed by Wikipedia. They have associated personality traits and stuff, so yeah, there's some potential there for an original magic system.

Chilingsworth
2011-01-08, 08:08 AM
Oh, there's things like the humours. Black bile, yellow bile, and... I forget the third. You could adapt something from that.

The other three are Phlem, Blood, and Pus, I think.

Ichneumon
2011-01-08, 08:14 AM
A bit methephorical things the world is built on: Society/unity, control, fear, willpower, greed. You can add more to fit the feel of the world (pain, false hopes, joy, etc).


That would work well with the alignment system. "Law versus Chaos"

I think I might try to do something like that in my next setting. Elements like "division of labour", "emancipation/enlightenment", "violence", "Ideology" and "Authority". :smallbiggrin:

Chilingsworth
2011-01-08, 08:17 AM
Try looking up the games "Doodle God" and "Doodle Devil" They're on Newgrounds and are element-mixing puzzle games. I think the start with some of the classical elements, but you get many and varried elements quite quickly.

Yora
2011-01-08, 08:22 AM
Basically, you can have any element as long as it fits a "rock-paper-scissors"-construction.
Why? I don't see any reason why that would be a requirement.

dsmiles
2011-01-08, 08:25 AM
The most variant elemental system I have found is Wu Xing, which contains Fire, Earth, Wood, Metal, and Water, but that has a few holes that don't fit well into D&D's damage system.

So I ask the playground... what do you do when you want to spice up the Fundamentals of your universe?

Personally, that's exactly what I use. The classical Eastern elements:

Fire=Fire, Earth=Acid, Wood=Poison, Metal=Electrical (Lightning in 4e), Water=Cold

It doesn't cover Positive/Negative energy (Radiant/Necrotic in 4e) or Sonic (Thunder in 4e), but neither do the classical Western elements of Air, Earth, Fire and Water.

Kiero
2011-01-08, 08:27 AM
Blood and phlegm, if memory serves as confirmed by Wikipedia. They have associated personality traits and stuff, so yeah, there's some potential there for an original magic system.

Humorism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_humours), which was the basis of medicine for a while. A while being right up until the 19th century.

Ichneumon
2011-01-08, 08:30 AM
Why? I don't see any reason why that would be a requirement.

Well, you don't HAVE to, but it's certainly the most easy way to balance all of them. If fire for example is better 3 of the 5 cases, everyone will want to play a Pyromancer, while no one will play the poor Aquamancer who's only good against fire and nothing else.

Trekkin
2011-01-08, 08:32 AM
Why? I don't see any reason why that would be a requirement.

I believe he meant that each element in the classical quartet of elements is balanced against its opposite, while other setups retain a more cyclical configuration of superiority. If one of the "elements" was, say, Awesome, and the others Crud, Mediocrity, and Uselessness, the whole system becomes a parody of itself; everyone summons Awesome Elementals and travels to the Elemental Plane of Awesome to hang with the Outsider [Awesomes], and there's no real need for the other three, so it isn't balanced anymore.

Actually, that might be an interesting alternative; elements for things made of non-baryonic matter that suddenly increase in importance due to celestial events and are recalled after lying in academia's collective dustbin due to their relative lack of power when compared to the four common elements.

Yora
2011-01-08, 09:13 AM
Well, you don't HAVE to, but it's certainly the most easy way to balance all of them. If fire for example is better 3 of the 5 cases, everyone will want to play a Pyromancer, while no one will play the poor Aquamancer who's only good against fire and nothing else.
I think that's making the whole thing much too simlistic than it needs to be.
For me, it's completely okay if fire is the only element that deals energy damage. Because it's downside is, that it can only deal damage.
Great example is the elements in Avatar. Firebenders only have the power to burn stuff, and those who get the most creative can also fly by using fire as rocket engines.
But D&D is a prime example of showing that dealing hit point damage is the fast and easy way, but far weaker than other things magic can do. Just throwing water at your enemies to kill them will never make water a strong element. But it seems like a good choice to throw people down and defend against fire, and if you allow ice as part of water, there's a whole new world of possibilities.

teslas
2011-01-08, 09:16 AM
...and say that the four elements in your universe are "Plot, Narrative, Context and Awesome".


...everyone summons Awesome Elementals and travels to the Elemental Plane of Awesome to hang with the Outsider [Awesomes]

There's a campaign in here somewhere.

akma
2011-01-08, 09:20 AM
Another option is to include dozens of elemants.
You don`t have to create a plane for each one, and people could argue endlessly about which elemants are the "true" elemants.
If you`ll want to create elemantanels, spells and plane for each elemant, that approach will require lots of work.

Malfunctioned
2011-01-08, 09:25 AM
In one world I was building they had several different elements, far more than the standard four in any case.


Fire.
Water.
Earth.
Air.
Metal.
Plant.
Lightning.
Wild.
Order.
Wind (Separate from Air).
Stone (Separate from Earth).
Mind.

I tried to figure out how to fit them into a RPS format but that didn't work to well. :smalltongue:

Gnorman
2011-01-08, 10:03 AM
M:tG colors, maybe?

The Valiant Turtle
2011-01-08, 10:22 AM
I've dug out my old Rolemaster Elemental Companion. Here are it's elemental groupings:

Lesser Basic Elements. The simplest basic building blocks:
Air
Cold
Light
Vibration
Water

Greater Basic Elements. Also basic building blocks, but slightly harder to control:
Gravity
Heat
Dark
Inertia
Earth

Compound Elements. Elements which are mixtures of a few basic elements.
Electrical (Light + Heat + Inertia)
Fire (Air + Heat + Light)
Ice (Water + Cold)
Wind (Air + Inertia)

Super Compound Elements. These contain some of all the basic elements.
Plasma
Vacid

Complex Elements. Totally unique and special elements
Aether
Chaos
Nether
Nexus
Spirit
Time

There are over a dozen different elemental theories presented which can dictate which elements are known at that time (starting with the classic 4).

Artanis
2011-01-08, 10:29 AM
You could go with Chrono Trigger's elements: Fire, Water, Lightning, and Shadow.

The Rose Dragon
2011-01-08, 10:31 AM
You could go with Chrono Trigger's elements: Fire, Water, Lightning, and Shadow.

Wasn't it originally Fire, Water, Light (as in, Holy Light) and Shadow?

Artanis
2011-01-08, 10:37 AM
Wasn't it originally Fire, Water, Light (as in, Holy Light) and Shadow?

*shrug* Not as far as I know :smallconfused:

The Rose Dragon
2011-01-08, 10:42 AM
*shrug* Not as far as I know :smallconfused:

I think it was, because Shadow-magic using enemies were weak against Light-magic.

IcarusWings
2011-01-08, 10:46 AM
You could go with the old Alchemical elements (Sulphur, Mercury, Salt)

The I-Ching is always cool, and I haven't heard of it ever being used for this sort of thing, so it's original (Water, Mountain/Stone, Swamp, Earth/Sand, Fire, Wind, Thunder, Heaven).

Yin Yang could be interesting (spiritual/physical energies)

And, of course, there's always the Periodic Table :smallbiggrin:

Artanis
2011-01-08, 10:48 AM
I think it was, because Shadow-magic using enemies were weak against Light-magic.

It could've been. All I know is that the end result had the four I mentioned.

The Rose Dragon
2011-01-08, 10:50 AM
It could've been. All I know is that the end result had the four I mentioned.

Maybe it was the translation. I distinctly recall there being Light there somewhere.

Dr.Epic
2011-01-08, 10:51 AM
Just add a fifth element...like the Fifth Element. Or maybe the element of Heart.

Yora
2011-01-08, 10:56 AM
Energybending! :smallbiggrin:

The Rose Dragon
2011-01-08, 10:59 AM
Just add a fifth element...like the Fifth Element. Or maybe the element of Heart.

"There are four elements! Fire, water, earth, wood!"

"What about air?"

"Don't be stupid, everyone knows that air isn't an element!"

Kuma Kode
2011-01-08, 12:11 PM
These are really good suggestions, and have gotten me thinking.

Since my setting has a Creation/Destruction mechanic not linked to Good or Evil, perhaps I could do that with the elements as well? Every element has a creative and destructive side. Other elements that would substitute for Positive and Negative would be something like Activity, except without a name that stupid, and would represent the cycle of creation and destruction in motion, while Inactivity would represent the cycle stopped, or lack of a cycle.

Water/Ice.
Air/Electricity.
Warmth (Eh...)/Fire.
Wood/Acid.

Dunno, kinda rambly. I might even try something like Fire Emblem : Radiant Dawn, and have a classical elemental rock-paper-scissors within a larger rock-paper-scissor dynamic.

Elfin
2011-01-08, 12:16 PM
I've always been fond of 4e's system, actually. Fire, Lightning, Thunder, Poison, Radiant, Necrotic, Acid, and Frost. Maybe switch the last for water.

Mercenary Pen
2011-01-08, 12:57 PM
If yo're willing to put up with a little bit of silliness, you might include surprise as an element... I mean "the element of surprise" is a common phrase, and yet, you never see any surprise elementals...

Kuma Kode
2011-01-08, 01:02 PM
If yo're willing to put up with a little bit of silliness, you might include surprise as an element... I mean "the element of surprise" is a common phrase, and yet, you never see any surprise elementals... Sounds like a homebrew project to me. :smallsmile:

boomwolf
2011-01-08, 01:21 PM
Well, there is always the 6-elemental axis

Fire, Water, Earth, Air, Life, Death.

If you take it to the direction you have of "create and destroy side of elements" you can merge both life an death into "soul" with life being "creative" an death "destructive"

true_shinken
2011-01-08, 01:25 PM
Elements the game (http://www.elementsthegame.com/)might provide some inspiration.

Ason
2011-01-08, 01:32 PM
If it hasn't been referenced already (I didn't see it), then I'll be the first to mention Titanium (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0423.html) :smalltongue:

flabort
2011-01-08, 03:08 PM
Sounds like a homebrew project to me. :smallsmile:

If your not claiming it, I am.

dsmiles
2011-01-08, 03:16 PM
Just add a fifth element...like the Fifth Element.

If you add the Fifth Element, most of us heterosexual males will be too distracted to play...http://www.adamcarolla.com/ACPBlog/wp-content/gallery/2010-07-29-tony-o039neill/03-milla-jovovich-fifth-element.jpg...I mean, really, guys, could you pay attention if that was in the room?

Tvtyrant
2011-01-08, 04:58 PM
Just add a fifth element...like the Fifth Element. Or maybe the element of Heart.

Heart sits there and cries while the others manage to use their powers in the least effective way possible.

NichG
2011-01-08, 05:25 PM
I'm in a campaign where we obtained a strange spellbook from ages past, filled with spells invented by a baker. The spells deal bread-elemental damage (e.g. Bread Barrier and Homing Biscuit).

We also found a material that acts as an energy inverter (put in X type of energy, get its opposite). Evidently the opposite of bread-elemental damage is meat-elemental damage.

Ironically it can be a very good tactical choice - very very few things have energy resistance against it.

Zeta Kai
2011-01-08, 06:12 PM
M:tG colors, maybe?

That would work well with this homebrew replacement for alignments (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=174163), which correspond to the color wheel of Magic: the Gathering. together, that would be a very interesting world, as your alignment would suggest an elemental affiliation.

I always liked the Power/Wisdom/Courage balance of The Legend of Zelda. Power seemed to be associated with fire/ambition, Wisdom seemed to be associated with plants/growth, & Courage seemed to be associated with water/perseverance. They were incomplete without the others, but were also slightly incompatible when combined. There's a lot that could be said about those.

Pechvarry
2011-01-08, 09:13 PM
These are really good suggestions, and have gotten me thinking.

Since my setting has a Creation/Destruction mechanic not linked to Good or Evil, perhaps I could do that with the elements as well? Every element has a creative and destructive side. Other elements that would substitute for Positive and Negative would be something like Activity, except without a name that stupid, and would represent the cycle of creation and destruction in motion, while Inactivity would represent the cycle stopped, or lack of a cycle.

If you don't mind reading about 1500 pages to understand what I'm talking about, I'd suggest reading the Mistborn trilogy.
Same author has a series where his ideas of fantasy elements are things like thermodynamics, friction, gravity, etc.

Tengu_temp
2011-01-08, 09:17 PM
Hot, spooky, cold, sleaze and stench.

Hot is strong against spooky and cold.
Spooky is strong against cold and sleaze.
Cold is strong against sleaze and stench.
Sleaze is strong against stench and hot.
Stench is strong against hot and spooky.

Cookie if you get the reference. A bad cookie.

Dusk Eclipse
2011-01-08, 10:06 PM
That would work well with this homebrew replacement for alignments (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=174163), which correspond to the color wheel of Magic: the Gathering. together, that would be a very interesting world, as your alignment would suggest an elemental affiliation.

I always liked the Power/Wisdom/Courage balance of The Legend of Zelda. Power seemed to be associated with fire/ambition, Wisdom seemed to be associated with plants/growth, & Courage seemed to be associated with water/perseverance. They were incomplete without the others, but were also slightly incompatible when combined. There's a lot that could be said about those.

I think you have Courage and Wisdom reversed Zeta, Courage as in the triforce that Links wields is Green, Wisdom is blue.

Also going from memory, Din created earth, Farore created life and Naryu created laws for them to attain (I always figured it means laws like...ecosystems stuff....)

Zeta Kai
2011-01-08, 10:13 PM
I think you have Courage and Wisdom reversed Zeta, Courage as in the triforce that Links wields is Green, Wisdom is blue.

Also going from memory, Din created earth, Farore created life and Naryu created laws for them to attain (I always figured it means laws like...ecosystems stuff....)

Sorry, I was going by the old school system (http://dumbbaby.net/a/i/304/15.jpg). It did reverse at some point. God, I'm old.

Milo v3
2011-01-09, 12:30 AM
Use the inner planes = Elements. (I use it in my campaign).
Fire: Fire
Earth: Acid
Air: Electricity
Water:cold
Positive: Positive Energy
Negative: Negative energy

Basically just the normal but with the DM counting Positive & Negative elements. (In my campaign thier is also Ice, Wood, Shadow and the Ether)

Xuc Xac
2011-01-09, 05:37 AM
I mean "the element of surprise" is a common phrase, and yet, you never see any surprise elementals...

Exactly. No one ever sees the surprise elementals...

Serpentine
2011-01-09, 05:44 AM
Exactly. No one ever sees the surprise elementals...Not until you least expect it.
edit: Chaos elementals? Is that what they'd be?
Oh oh! The element of danger!

grimbold
2011-01-09, 05:46 AM
I use paraelementals...

What about emotion as the basic buildingblocks? Lust, joy, anger, and so on (hunger comes to mind, but I'm not sure if it really counts as an emotion).
for many a teenage boy hunger is a state off being
after OOTS i like chlorine and titanium elementals

Beelzebub1111
2011-01-09, 08:49 AM
Well there's the Chinese elements: Fire, Earth, Water, Wood, and Metal