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Kaeso
2011-01-08, 01:08 PM
Hey all,

I really like playing DnD but sometimes I want something different than a medieval (or pre-medieval) game. I'm quite interested in playing a swashbuckling pirate or navy officer once in a while and you can't have one of those without some fancy thunderbluss or musket or pistol. I just wonder if there's some book (official would be preferred but third party is fine too) that has any rules for these ancient types of guns (or, if there are no rules for it, if there's a different RPG that has rules for them).

DeltaEmil
2011-01-08, 01:11 PM
For D&D 3.5, rules for firearms are written in the Dungeon Master's Guidebook, chapter 5 Campaigns, page 145.

Saint GoH
2011-01-08, 01:17 PM
For D&D 3.5, rules for firearms are written in the Dungeon Master's Guidebook, chapter 5 Campaigns, page 145.

Meh. Those guns are also ridiculously underpowered IIRC.

Iron Kingdoms is a Steam Punk setting that uses turret, clockwork, musket and various other firearms in its system, while still maintaining a modicum of swordery.

I believe there is a module (or maybe a whole system, not ENTIRELY sure) called Seven Seas or somesuch that deals explicitly with High Sea's adventures and swashbuckling. Might be worth looking into...

DeltaEmil
2011-01-08, 01:25 PM
Oh, I absolutely concur, it's just that these are "the most official" firearm rules for D&D 3.5. Most weapons in D&D suck, either because they need the exotic weapon proficiency, or because their stats are just that bad. D&D is all about two-handed weapons, wands and bows to crush the enemies and hear the lamentations of their women (who must also be crushed).

Kaeso
2011-01-08, 01:47 PM
Oh, I absolutely concur, it's just that these are "the most official" firearm rules for D&D 3.5. Most weapons in D&D suck, either because they need the exotic weapon proficiency, or because their stats are just that bad. D&D is all about two-handed weapons, wands and bows to crush the enemies and hear the lamentations of their women (who must also be crushed).

Do you think that giving all PC's a standard weapon prof. for firearms would solve that problem, or is the standard action reloading still too crippling?

Edwin
2011-01-08, 02:04 PM
Do you think that giving all PC's a standard weapon prof. for firearms would solve that problem, or is the standard action reloading still too crippling?

Imagine your sword breaking everytime you hit something with it.

That's exactly how crippling.

Achernar
2011-01-08, 02:07 PM
There are more firearm homebrews written than pellets of #9 shot in a 12ga shell. That said, you can approximate some of your own... how I run firearms is vaguely as follows:

A musket (or muzzle-loading shotgun) is the basic weapon, maybe 2d12/x3, martial with a range inc. of 100' and standard action to reload.

A blunderbuss is a shorter musket (essentially another kind of shotgun) with a quicker reload time (move action) due to its flared muzzle. 2d8/x3, martial with a range of 75'.

A pistol is concealable with Slight of Hand, but significantly less powerful due to its short barrel. 1d10/x3, simple (for roguey types, even though they are harder to use than longarms) with a range of 50'. Standard Action to reload.

A rifle is more accurate and has a longer range and better critical, but sacrifices reload speed because the rifling grooves make it more difficult to push the patched ball down the barrel. 2d12/x4 Martial or Exotic with a full-round reload, range of 150'.

Everything except for the Blunderbuss can be made double-barreled for Rapid Shot action, and I allow Rapid Reload to affect everything down to a move action just like with crossbows.



I figure the higher damage of the weapons is tempered by reload time, and while reloading really does take much longer, the time given conserves game balance. I've run only a one-off with these rules included, but it seemed to work fine for me.:smallcool:

Keinnicht
2011-01-08, 02:08 PM
Imagine your sword breaking everytime you hit something with it.

That's exactly how crippling.

Any time I've used firearms in a campaign, I allowed revolvers. If you can get a longbow that does the same damage, no one would bother with a matchlock pistol.

GoodbyeSoberDay
2011-01-08, 02:13 PM
I don't have d20 past myself, but it's often cited when people want to play in time periods between high middle ages and modern times.

Edwin
2011-01-08, 02:21 PM
Any time I've used firearms in a campaign, I allowed revolvers. If you can get a longbow that does the same damage, no one would bother with a matchlock pistol.

Within the dungeon and dragons mechanics, you are absolutely right.

Ravens_cry
2011-01-08, 03:35 PM
Try the d20 Modern and/or Past if you want more dakka, the rules are close enough that importing, along with possibly some feats, should be a piece o' cake.

Kaeso
2011-01-08, 06:33 PM
Try the d20 Modern and/or Past if you want more dakka, the rules are close enough that importing, along with possibly some feats, should be a piece o' cake.

Is there an srd for d20 past?

grimbold
2011-01-09, 02:46 PM
For D&D 3.5, rules for firearms are written in the Dungeon Master's Guidebook, chapter 5 Campaigns, page 145.

those are wayunderpowered they are barely stronger than swords

DisgruntledDM
2011-01-09, 04:02 PM
I believe there is a module (or maybe a whole system, not ENTIRELY sure) called Seven Seas or somesuch that deals explicitly with High Sea's adventures and swashbuckling. Might be worth looking into...

7th Sea, from AEG, the company behind Legend of the Five Rings. It's incredibly hard to find a print copy of, since I believe there were only 1 or 2 print runs. You can download a PDF from drivethrurpg for about $12 though.

They also made a d20 version called Swashbuckling Adventures, which I don't think was particularly well recieved, and still probably hard to find.

GoodbyeSoberDay
2011-01-09, 04:11 PM
those are wayunderpowered they are barely stronger than swordsIt was my understanding that they modeled earlier firearms, which *were* weaker than swords.

Ravens_cry
2011-01-09, 04:15 PM
Is there an srd for d20 past?
Unfortunatly no, but as you may be aware, there is one for Modern and Future.
(http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=d20/article/msrd)

Greenish
2011-01-09, 04:21 PM
Unfortunatly no, but as you may be aware, there is one for Modern and Future.
(http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=d20/article/msrd)Looking at the Modern weapons, they look mechanically fitting to a 3.5 game. The base damage is pretty large, but then again archery has so little support it'll have to be. Making them relatively expensive should work.

WarKitty
2011-01-09, 04:27 PM
Just a warning from watching our group: If you make weapons with a long reload time, put some limits as to how many of them can be reasonably carried in a position where they can be drawn. Otherwise you get what we started doing - the PC's carry 10 loaded guns in their belt.

Achernar
2011-01-09, 05:34 PM
Just a warning from watching our group: If you make weapons with a long reload time, put some limits as to how many of them can be reasonably carried in a position where they can be drawn. Otherwise you get what we started doing - the PC's carry 10 loaded guns in their belt.

There's a feat for that: "Captain Edward Teach."

Pre-reqs: Quick Draw and 1d4 pieces of slow-match burning in your beard.

Edwin
2011-01-09, 05:51 PM
Just a warning from watching our group: If you make weapons with a long reload time, put some limits as to how many of them can be reasonably carried in a position where they can be drawn. Otherwise you get what we started doing - the PC's carry 10 loaded guns in their belt.

That's basically the only way to make the DMG guns anywhere near feasible, and even then you only get a couple of shots before you gotta get your sword swinging and clanging.

Granted, outside two armies battling, that was generally the way they did it back then. But that's not cool.

dsmiles
2011-01-09, 05:55 PM
Just a warning from watching our group: If you make weapons with a long reload time, put some limits as to how many of them can be reasonably carried in a position where they can be drawn. Otherwise you get what we started doing - the PC's carry 10 loaded guns in their belt.

As a Gun Mage in an IK game, I usually carry about 4 or 5. At least one has multiple barrels. But then again, Gun Mages only bond with pistols, so carrying that many is definitely plausible.

WarKitty
2011-01-09, 05:56 PM
As a Gun Mage in an IK game, I usually carry about 4 or 5. At least one has multiple barrels. But then again, Gun Mages only bond with pistols, so carrying that many is definitely plausible.

How broken this technique is depends on how powerful your guns are. I think ours did significantly more than the equivalent bow - 2d6 or 2d8 damage.

dsmiles
2011-01-09, 05:59 PM
How broken this technique is depends on how powerful your guns are. I think ours did significantly more than the equivalent bow - 2d6 or 2d8 damage.

That's about right for IK (with an 80' range increment). Standard action reload, and a feat to make it a move action.

Xuc Xac
2011-01-09, 09:11 PM
That's basically the only way to make the DMG guns anywhere near feasible, and even then you only get a couple of shots before you gotta get your sword swinging and clanging.

Granted, outside two armies battling, that was generally the way they did it back then. But that's not cool.

Are you sure? Seems pretty cool to me.

Dsurion
2011-01-09, 09:46 PM
Just a warning from watching our group: If you make weapons with a long reload time, put some limits as to how many of them can be reasonably carried in a position where they can be drawn. Otherwise you get what we started doing - the PC's carry 10 loaded guns in their belt.

Nothing wrong with this. Pirates used to do it boarding ships when possible. If it becomes a real annoyance, you simply remind the players of the hazards of carrying loaded gunpowder weapons. :smallsmile:

Rain will dampen their day (shoot me for the bad pun later), as will any kind of water immersion, when their guns no longer function.

A concentrated amount of heat could set the guns off while they're loaded in a person's belt.

I'm sure there are other things you could use that are equally obvious.

WarKitty
2011-01-09, 09:51 PM
Nothing wrong with this. Pirates used to do it boarding ships when possible. If it becomes a real annoyance, you simply remind the players of the hazards of carrying loaded gunpowder weapons. :smallsmile:

Rain will dampen their day (shoot me for the bad pun later), as will any kind of water immersion, when their guns no longer function.

A concentrated amount of heat could set the guns off while they're loaded in a person's belt.

I'm sure there are other things you could use that are equally obvious.

In-game, I think the primary issue is that it was producing too much hp damage for the level where we were. It ended up extending the amount of early game time where getting hit was just about a death sentence.

Achernar
2011-01-09, 10:37 PM
In-game, I think the primary issue is that it was producing too much hp damage for the level where we were. It ended up extending the amount of early game time where getting hit was just about a death sentence.

Huh. I would have thought that unmodified die rolls of that magnitude would only be one-hit lethal at levels 1-2, maybe up to 4 for wizards... was it that big of a problem? (I rarely run games under level 5). I hadn't thought of it that way before...

WarKitty
2011-01-09, 10:41 PM
Huh. I would have thought that unmodified die rolls of that magnitude would only be one-hit lethal at levels 1-2, maybe up to 4 for wizards... was it that big of a problem? (I rarely run games under level 5). I hadn't thought of it that way before...

It wasn't one-hit lethal as much as that they were easy to dual-wield and considered a martial weapon. So a cr-appropriate encounter against a couple of warriors with guns could flatten a level 4 or 5 quickly, particularly since we never seem to roll good initiative checks.

Caewil
2011-01-10, 12:26 AM
Seems fair to me. Once guns are introduced, shooting first should be a priority. Staying behind cover at all times unless you know an area is secured would also help.

WarKitty
2011-01-10, 12:49 AM
Seems fair to me. Once guns are introduced, shooting first should be a priority. Staying behind cover at all times unless you know an area is secured would also help.

Of course, guns actually did increase the lethality of combat and render armor all but useless. They also massively changed the way tactics worked. Which is fine if that's what you want to do with D&D. But if they're a common weapon, expect some significant changes. If you're in a situation where the opponent has guns and you don't (like we were, because we hadn't been able to buy any), you're not going to do well.

Personally, I don't like guns in your standard dungeon crawl. How often do you have cover available anyway? You don't have a choice about going around that corner where there might be someone waiting.

Kaeso
2011-01-10, 02:34 AM
You don't have a choice about going around that corner where there might be someone waiting.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/90/1672_-_caporal_-_rgt_grenadiers_de_france2.jpg/351px-1672_-_caporal_-_rgt_grenadiers_de_france2.jpg

This is is why musketeers were usually equiped with a saber or some other kind of sword, and even the soldiers of the napoleontic era had bayonets on their guns, which were widly used until WWI (when a gun could fire so fast there was hardly any need for worrying about melee). If I'm correct there are still some modern guns that have bayonets though. IMHO a musket or pistol shouldn't be strictly better than a sword (there were many renaissance/industrial era generals (like Suvorov or Napoléon) who preferred melee combat over ranged combat) but it's pretty sad that they're worse than longbows.

Anyway, I think there's a way of making the use of pistols worthwhile. The DMG states that the pistol takes a standard action to reload, but does it require two hands? If not, a rogue could fire two pistols, retreat to reload, and fire again.

dsmiles
2011-01-10, 07:57 AM
This is is why musketeers were usually equiped with a saber or some other kind of sword, and even the soldiers of the napoleontic era had bayonets on their guns, which were widly used until WWI (when a gun could fire so fast there was hardly any need for worrying about melee). If I'm correct there are still some modern guns that have bayonets though. IMHO a musket or pistol shouldn't be strictly better than a sword (there were many renaissance/industrial era generals (like Suvorov or Napoléon) who preferred melee combat over ranged combat) but it's pretty sad that they're worse than longbows.They're only worse than longbows because the writers didn't want us to accidentally spill technology on their fantasy. The Iron Kingdoms sourcebook has much better firearms.

Anyway, I think there's a way of making the use of pistols worthwhile. The DMG states that the pistol takes a standard action to reload, but does it require two hands? If not, a rogue could fire two pistols, retreat to reload, and fire again.The rules may not state it, but have you ever seen somebody reload a flintlock pistol with one hand? It takes about a minute, and that's for a trained professional.

Achernar
2011-01-10, 11:58 AM
Of course, guns actually did increase the lethality of combat and render armor all but useless. They also massively changed the way tactics worked. Which is fine if that's what you want to do with D&D. But if they're a common weapon, expect some significant changes. If you're in a situation where the opponent has guns and you don't (like we were, because we hadn't been able to buy any), you're not going to do well.

Personally, I don't like guns in your standard dungeon crawl. How often do you have cover available anyway? You don't have a choice about going around that corner where there might be someone waiting.

That actually sounds pretty interesting as a tactical challenge. I like difficult combats. :smallamused:

Also: RE: Less melee combat in WWI: World War I saw heavy use of stilettos ("Trench Knives") and Sword bayonets due to the close-combat nature of raiding an enemy trench. It was often more effective and expedient to stab the person in front of you than to shoot them (unless you had a pistol instead of an unwieldly long-barreled rifle). I'm not sure how much "convenience" plays into an RPG, though. It's a lot easier to use longarms in close quarters with no facing rules... until someone grapples you, I guess...:smallamused:

Kaeso
2011-01-10, 12:58 PM
The rules may not state it, but have you ever seen somebody reload a flintlock pistol with one hand? It takes about a minute, and that's for a trained professional.

That's a good point... In that case, would rapid reload be worth it for a musket? 1d12 damage with a move action to reload at a range of 120 ft. doesn't sound too shabby.

dsmiles
2011-01-10, 03:22 PM
That's a good point... In that case, would rapid reload be worth it for a musket? 1d12 damage with a move action to reload at a range of 120 ft. doesn't sound too shabby.

It's worse than the Iron Kingdoms stats, IIRC. I'm AFB, but those sound like the stats from the DMG. It's not too horribly bad, if you're going for the lower end of firearms technology. High-end firearms technology should use the IK books, plus IK has more variety, and classes, skills and feats specifically for firearms.

WarKitty
2011-01-10, 06:00 PM
That actually sounds pretty interesting as a tactical challenge. I like difficult combats. :smallamused:

Also: RE: Less melee combat in WWI: World War I saw heavy use of stilettos ("Trench Knives") and Sword bayonets due to the close-combat nature of raiding an enemy trench. It was often more effective and expedient to stab the person in front of you than to shoot them (unless you had a pistol instead of an unwieldly long-barreled rifle). I'm not sure how much "convenience" plays into an RPG, though. It's a lot easier to use longarms in close quarters with no facing rules... until someone grapples you, I guess...:smallamused:

Yeah. It depends on the group too. Our group tends to be highly invested in characters and doesn't appreciate them dying to some mook with a gun.

EccentricCircle
2011-01-10, 06:41 PM
firearms are commonplace in several of my campaigns,
we use the rules from D20 Past as they fit well with standard 3.5 and are better than the DMG weapons although those are legal too.
one thing to note is that D20 past doesn't use money, but multiplying the purchase DC by 10 works fairly well for converting to gold so long as you only do it for things on the weapon and armour tables and use a pinch of salt. (it doesn't work for the planes and airships unfortunately...)

Kaeso
2011-01-10, 06:43 PM
Yeah. It depends on the group too. Our group tends to be highly invested in characters and doesn't appreciate them dying to some mook with a gun.

I think level 1, maybe 2, are the only levels where you can really die because of some mook with a gun. A musket does 1d12 damage without any adjustements, a greatsword does 2d6+(2*str), so the latter would be deadlier at pretty much any level as long as you have a strength score of at least 12.

Dead_Jester
2011-01-10, 09:14 PM
I have to agree with dsmiles here, the IK stuff is definitely the best when it comes to published stuff. Of course, if you search through the early No Quarter (Privateer Press' version of Dungeon and Dragon mags) then you can find the good stuff like repeating rifles that are actually usable, revolvers, handcannons that don't make you cry because of the reload time, portable artillery, etc.

Of course, reload speed reducing abilities are nice, and guns work really well when you can reload a full revolver mag as a move action. Of course, it starts to get silly when you enchant your triple-barreled repeater with the splitting enchantment (on every barrel, so it's really expensive), but then again, you were already wielding a triple barreled repeater ...

Achernar
2011-01-11, 01:24 PM
Yeah. It depends on the group too. Our group tends to be highly invested in characters and doesn't appreciate them dying to some mook with a gun.

I've had a few close calls with less damage. A highwayman (Rogue 3) with a mundane club almost killed my friend's level 4 tiefling wizard in the first session I ever DM'd. I still can't believe no-one spotted him, but one rogue got a hit in with a heavy crossbow (1d10, he didn't get SA), and then this guy almost bashed the mage's brains in with a critical club hit. At 4 remaining HP, he almost died to a mook with a chair leg. :smallamused:

I think it really depends on how squishy the party is, and whether or not the party has a healer. I found the damage done by melee weapons to be a much bigger risk to the party's continued well-being.

However, my big question here is, what is Iron Kingdoms and where can I find me some? :smallwink:

Dead_Jester
2011-01-11, 03:47 PM
However, my big question here is, what is Iron Kingdoms and where can I find me some? :smallwink:

Iron Kingdoms is a D&D campaign setting produced by Privateer Press (the company behind WarmaHordes for you miniatures enthusiasts). It's a steampunk setting with good fluff, a big focus on guns and mechs (that they call jacks). All in all, it's a pretty epic setting, if you don't mind moving away from the traditional high-fantasy for a while.

It might be pretty hard to find in print, but if I remember correctly, it (and the introductory adventure The Witchfire Trilogy) were made available as pdf's at one point.

Greenish
2011-01-11, 03:59 PM
They're only worse than longbows because the writers didn't want us to accidentally spill technology on their fantasy. The Iron Kingdoms sourcebook has much better firearms.So people keep saying, but the ones I've seen cited still suffered from heavy reload times, without being noticeable stronger than much of the other stuff.

Dead_Jester
2011-01-11, 05:35 PM
So people keep saying, but the ones I've seen cited still suffered from heavy reload times, without being noticeable stronger than much of the other stuff.

Which is why you have to get the early No Quarters that have all the great guns. Also, they might suffer from long reload times, but people usually rule that rapid reload also works for guns, and that it stacks with abilities that improve reload speeds, so that any gunslinger worth his salt is still reloading as a free action.

Also, quad barreled snipers that can fire all barrels with a single attack :smallbiggrin: (even better when you automatically threaten a critical at x6 crit multiplier). Now put splitting on it for the lulz.