View Full Version : [3.5e]Swimming In Feats-A Thought Exercise

2011-01-08, 02:38 PM
The premise is simple: What can be done with an absurd number of feats?

Let's say that there's a character, a level 18 gestalt human Fighter/Wizard. The player has convinced the DM that fighter bonus feats should be for all feats, and that since there is a feat to gain a spell slot, he should be able to trade out his spell slots for feats. The DM lets him trade out them all except for his bonus spells. Similarly, the DM allows him to trade out Scribe Scroll for yet another feat.

So, you have a character with 58 feats.

What could/would you do with so many?

2011-01-08, 02:43 PM
I would use them to smack the DM upside the head with his book.

2011-01-08, 02:45 PM
Nothing that i would give up the spells for. Sure, you could have every 'good" feat out there, be extremely versatile in combat, item creation, whatever. I just dont see it making up for the loss of spells though.

2011-01-08, 02:49 PM
58? How about 504 (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19866566/The_True_Dilettante__New_Feat_Record__504_feats)? :smallwink:

You're basically a gish with your setup, so I'd say get standard gish spells than take all draconic feats (start with Dragontouched) and similar scaling feats (like those from Fiendish Codex).

2011-01-08, 08:28 PM
I've thought before about maneuvers that use the most number of feats for a single action. Here's a quick idea:

Hurling Charge (mini). Since you're throwing and hitting, you should probably optimize both and reduce MAD as you can.
Quick Draw required (and we'll make use of it).
You'll want Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot and Far Shot. Also, Brutal Throw (CAdv) and Power Throw (CAdv). To make sure you get use of the latter, let's hit up Neraph Throw (PlH).
Because you've decided you only use Dwarven Waraxes (Exotic Weapon Proficiency), you'll want Throw Anything.

So you've flung your axe from 20' away at the big bad who's beating on your hot cleric friend while running at him. Now you're actually catching up to him. Time to quick draw your 2nd waraxe and get your charge hit in.

The usual suspects here: Power Attack, Leap Attack, Shock Trooper (and the required Improved Bull Rush), and I actually don't have much experience with chargers to know what else. I will say that, because we have room for it, Neraph Charge can join in, too. We'll want Powerful Charge (Mini) too, because we can.

Damage is a subpar way of solving encounters. We need some debuffing. You're right, minor character, let's grab Dreadful Wrath (PGtF).

I had a huge bit about adding additional attacks, which gave us 7 more feats, but Hurling Charge says we can't. =(

So, 17 feats used in one round, and I'm certain I'm forgetting charge feats. Not bad, but I know we can do better. When the next BBEG charges your buddies, you should probably use Cometary Collision to trigger this nonsense.

If they change their target to you, you'll want Sidestep Charge (XPH) to hit them in the face if they miss you. You'll also want Hold The Line (CW) since the moment they change target to you, they would trigger it. This also means you need Combat Reflexes.
Finally, you want to punish them for picking on you -- grab Robilar's Gambit. This AoO should stack with Hold the Line's (2 separate triggers), though it feasibly doesn't stack with Sidestep Charge. in which case, it hurts those who hit you while sidestep charge hurts those who miss.

Normally, you can trade in attacks for special actions, such as bull rush attempts (which you can explicitly do instead of charging). Assuming the same holds true for the charge attack granted by Hurling Charge, you can bull rush someone and maybe grab Combat Brute to make funny things happen from doing so (requiring Improved Sunder).

Since you have Dodge, but didn't know who would charge, it's a good thing you have Combat Focus, Combat Awareness (need to know their HP!), and Combat Defense (all PHB2) to change your Dodge target as an immediate action. But why stop at one Dodge? You'll want Martial Study (any Desert Wind) and Desert Wind Dodge, as well as Expeditious Dodge (RotW) if we can move 40' before interception. We won't be grabbing Midnight Dodge because we want Cobalt Charge and Bonus Essentia.

I'm quite sure we could grab some psionic stuff while we're at it, but I'm not sure I'm up for that avenue today. Anyway, one round worth of actions: 32 feats.

2011-01-08, 09:09 PM
Hmm, the first thing that occurs to me is an army of dragon familiars. But that's just silly.

2011-01-08, 09:59 PM
Hmm, the first thing that occurs to me is an army of dragon familiars. But that's just silly.

I think you're confusing "silly" with "the right answer".

Anyway, you should really be a sorcerer with this build, since they get more spell slots. So get some feats and do some multiclassing to get yourself Cha to everything. Nymph LA on the fighter side, probably.

2011-01-08, 10:16 PM
I don't think that's the idea. It's not about (or so I think) making a gish from the wizard or having 403 feats, it's about what you could pull off if feat numbers weren't an issue. Instead of simply saying "all of them", it's a chance to think about using those feats that are cool but simply too weak to go into any normal build.

TWF build (12 feats):
3x TWF feats
3x TW defense feats
Double Hit, Dual Strike (ugh), Pin Shield (triple ugh)
Two-Weapon Pounce, Two-Weapon Rend
Oversized TWF

make him a thrower (17 feats). add:
point blank-, precise-, and far- shot.
quick draw, rapid shot.

Make a shield-user (14 feats):
improved shield bash, shield charge, shield slam
combat expertise, improved trip
shield specialization, shield ward, agile shield fighter, shield sling
active shield defense, deft opportunist
combat reflexes, evasive reflexes, sidestep

...and he's still outdone by a dude (2 feats) with EWP: spiked chain and stand still.

2011-01-08, 10:41 PM
I think you're confusing "silly" with "the right answer".

Well, with full BAB and 1/2(20d10+20CON) hp and the potential ability to A. adopt a human form(if gold/silver) and wield weapons for iteratives, B. all wield homemade +X mouthpick weapons in their mouths in addition to their natural weapons, or C. focus fire blasting with their breath weapons), and those options with having some of their own feats to work with... Definitely not the worst option, since the right dragon familiars should, I believe, have some low level spellcasting to increase utility for some things.

Unfortunately, they're going to be pretty basic beyond that, as they'll not have very many feats due to their low HD. And arcane hierophanting would trade one dragon familiar for an animal companion with familiar benefits rather than a dragon with animal companion benefits. Same with familiar mount from High One Warrior-Wizard substitution levels from champions of valor...

Fleshwarper's about the only thing I can think of that would give the familiars some extra oomph, at the cost of having fewer dragons in order to qualify.

But all that's beyond the scope of the current thought experiment.

Though, I guess you could say that any damage-oriented chain could be judged by how it compares with the number of dragons that one has to give up on having in order to take that feat chain.

Anyway, you should really be a sorcerer with this build, since they get more spell slots.

Well, a focused specialist wizard would get as many or more spell slots than a sorcerer(IIRC) and the wizard bonus feats at 1st level and every 5 levels, so it might have the advantage. Not sure if the slots obtained from that count as bonus slots for our purposes here though.

Hmm.... I believe one could become a halfway competent meldshaper using feats alone with that many to spare, since a commoner using feats is apparently better than a soulborn at meldshaping...

2011-01-08, 10:49 PM
[Draconic] and [Abyssal] are a clear winner. Or get really complicated like Pechvarry said too.

Things like "Tons of familiars!" enters into the realm of terrible TO but too stupid to ever actually be played. It's like spending your entire WBL/Handle Animal on thousands of low level Warbeasts. Technically it works but it's retarded.

2011-01-08, 10:54 PM
Metamagic mitigation is what I would do with it. :smalleek:

2011-01-08, 10:58 PM
Things like "Tons of familiars!" enters into the realm of terrible TO but too stupid to ever actually be played. It's like spending your entire WBL/Handle Animal on thousands of low level Warbeasts. Technically it works but it's retarded.

I did call it silly for a reason. :smalltongue: It's more like getting middling level warbeasts anyway.

2011-01-08, 11:21 PM
Spend a few on Sanctum Spell + Improved Krau Sigil + Heighten + Earth Spell. Apply it all to a 9th level spell, so this counts as a 12th level spell
Trade the 1-8 level spell slots for feats -- take the feat Extra Slot for 34 11th level spells. Now trade the two 9ths for 11ths. Two more for the Fighter and Character Feat you get at 18th -- That's 38 11th level slots. Hunger for Improved Spell Capicity.

You still have a few feats left over, throw a party.