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dextercorvia
2011-01-08, 05:03 PM
Do clerics know the spells on there list? Can clerics know spells any other way?

Vistella
2011-01-08, 05:08 PM
yes. id say no

NichG
2011-01-08, 05:17 PM
I've always felt that cleric knowledge of all their spell options was weird, due to the sheer number of obscure cleric spells out there. But I don't really have a good game-mechanical answer for it other than a favored soul or an archivist. I guess it makes more sense when the cleric spell list was much more limited (i.e. core only). It also has the unfortunate side-effect of making spell research to create new spells a non-option for clerics, or _very_ strange as every cleric in the multiverse suddenly finds a new spell on their list.

Using Limited Wish, Wish and Miracle to emulate spells the caster does not know (and often would never have heard of in-character) has a similar conceptual issue, which can be solved by the DM requiring some kind of Knowledge check, or by saying that the wish is phrased as 'I want X to happen' and the spell somehow scans the total repository of magic to find the spell that does X.

Zeta Kai
2011-01-08, 05:55 PM
A cleric may prepare and cast any spell on the cleric spell list, provided that he can cast spells of that level, but he must choose which spells to prepare during his daily meditation.

That about covers it. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/cleric.htm)

Glimbur
2011-01-08, 06:29 PM
Do clerics know the spells on there list? Can clerics know spells any other way?

Clerics can know additional spells if they are Domain spells, which come with their own set of rules (you get one domain slot per spell level). Standard clerics get two domains, chosen at first level. Cleric (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/cleric.htm).

dextercorvia
2011-01-08, 06:29 PM
To clarify, not can a cleric cast from their entire list, but do cleric's know spells on there list like for the purpose of feats and PrC's?

Yuki Akuma
2011-01-08, 06:30 PM
...Yes. They do.

sreservoir
2011-01-08, 06:45 PM
I'm sure it isn't intended to work with versatile spellcaster, but it does as written unless I'm missing something completely.

have fun with the ability to cast spontaneously off the entirely of a gigantic list just by expending extra spell slots.

Tvtyrant
2011-01-08, 06:59 PM
Do clerics know the spells on there list? Can clerics know spells any other way?

Yup. Keep in mind the list isn't gigantic like the Wizards though; the two equal out for that very reason.

WarKitty
2011-01-08, 07:15 PM
I always thought this was a bit weird, actually. For wizards, it makes sense that you use spells off a list, because each spell has its own mini ritual and if you want a new spell you have to figure out its ritual or form or whatever. For clerics, you're channeling the power of your deity. Why does it have to take the form of a particular spell? Why can't I just customize it as needed?

Zeta Kai
2011-01-08, 07:26 PM
I always thought this was a bit weird, actually. For wizards, it makes sense that you use spells off a list, because each spell has its own mini ritual and if you want a new spell you have to figure out its ritual or form or whatever. For clerics, you're channeling the power of your deity. Why does it have to take the form of a particular spell? Why can't I just customize it as needed?

Because that would require a huge block of CANs & CAN'Ts, & they're powerful enough as it is.

RebelRogue
2011-01-08, 07:28 PM
I like to think of it as the cleric praying for miracolous powers to deal with a specific (set of) situation(s), with the spells he actually gets being picked by the deity (or whoever/whatever grants the spells). Of course, this would be more work for the DM and taking away from the player's freedom, so effectively it works best for all if the player just picks the spells. This may not work logically on every possible level when examined too closely, but I like the overall fluff of it.

ClockShock
2011-01-08, 07:53 PM
I always thought this was a bit weird, actually. For wizards, it makes sense that you use spells off a list, because each spell has its own mini ritual and if you want a new spell you have to figure out its ritual or form or whatever. For clerics, you're channeling the power of your deity. Why does it have to take the form of a particular spell? Why can't I just customize it as needed?

Because cleric spells still need preparing before they're needed.

Yuki Akuma
2011-01-08, 08:00 PM
I always thought this was a bit weird, actually. For wizards, it makes sense that you use spells off a list, because each spell has its own mini ritual and if you want a new spell you have to figure out its ritual or form or whatever. For clerics, you're channeling the power of your deity. Why does it have to take the form of a particular spell? Why can't I just customize it as needed?

Because Clerics don't channel the power of their deity. Their deity puts spells in their head, mostly-cast, so their priests can say a few trigger phrases and pretend to be Wizards.

The hint is in the fact that Clerics can't have their prepared spells taken away from them - they can just be barred from preparing new spells.

WarKitty
2011-01-08, 08:47 PM
Because that would require a huge block of CANs & CAN'Ts, & they're powerful enough as it is.


Because cleric spells still need preparing before they're needed.

That's crunch though. Still doesn't have a good in-universe justification.


Because Clerics don't channel the power of their deity. Their deity puts spells in their head, mostly-cast, so their priests can say a few trigger phrases and pretend to be Wizards.

The hint is in the fact that Clerics can't have their prepared spells taken away from them - they can just be barred from preparing new spells.

Good point there. Not sure I'm convinced though, still.

Greenish
2011-01-08, 09:26 PM
That's crunch though. Still doesn't have a good in-universe justification.Because magic comes in prepackaged clumps. Since it's magic, and magic works like that.

Gamer Girl
2011-01-08, 09:37 PM
Do clerics know the spells on there list? Can clerics know spells any other way?


I've always done it this way:

Your Religion teaches you all the spells on the list, that is the spell names and what they do. In cleric training your taught 'if you need to see in the dark, there is a spell called 'Light' that can make light.'

Also when you pray and/or dream, your deity makes all the spells they grant known to you. Every night you get at least one spell dream: a dream where you are shown casting spells to do things.

So when you wake up in the morning you can pick from the spells you know exist or pick from one of the 'new' spells you saw in your dream.


I also have always liked the idea of a cleric praying and asking for a new spell when needed.

Azernak0
2011-01-08, 09:41 PM
Druids and Sorcerers have the same problem. How does a Sorcerer just "know" a super obscure spell? How does a Druid know of all those spells in splat books? I mostly just say "who the hell knows, but mechanically they do."

Tvtyrant
2011-01-08, 09:54 PM
I always thought this was a bit weird, actually. For wizards, it makes sense that you use spells off a list, because each spell has its own mini ritual and if you want a new spell you have to figure out its ritual or form or whatever. For clerics, you're channeling the power of your deity. Why does it have to take the form of a particular spell? Why can't I just customize it as needed?

You don't cast spells. God does. But the time it takes to ask for a spell is too long for use in combat; essentially you ask Him for a lot of magic and hope you guessed what you need. A Cleric cannot cast magic themselves at all (or a Druid).

Yuki Akuma
2011-01-08, 10:47 PM
Druids and Sorcerers have the same problem. How does a Sorcerer just "know" a super obscure spell? How does a Druid know of all those spells in splat books? I mostly just say "who the hell knows, but mechanically they do."

...Sorcerers don't "know" spells. They have an innate ability to cast them. They don't pick and choose.

Ozymandias
2011-01-08, 11:38 PM
So basically, Gods are arms dealers.

Callista
2011-01-08, 11:42 PM
I always thought this was a bit weird, actually. For wizards, it makes sense that you use spells off a list, because each spell has its own mini ritual and if you want a new spell you have to figure out its ritual or form or whatever. For clerics, you're channeling the power of your deity. Why does it have to take the form of a particular spell? Why can't I just customize it as needed?Do you want a RP explanation? Obviously, out of game, the explanation is "balance", but praying for a specific set of spells makes sense in-game, too.

Did you ever check out the gods' stats? They have them, just like anyone, but they're ridiculously high--epic and then some, plus the special abilities they get from being, y'know, gods. So when your 5th-level cleric asks for that Hold Person spell, he's connecting his fragile little 10-INT, 17-WIS brain to the mind of a god. That's a dangerous thing for any mortal to do. No wonder he has to meditate/pray/carry out rituals in order to do this safely, or to accomplish it at all. Most likely, the evil deities (and some of the neutral ones) routinely splat clerics who get too pushy. A god is not a vending machine--pay a prayer, get a spell. A god is an epic-plus person who you're just capable of barely understanding as it is, and you're daring to ask for favors from him! You better believe that takes some special procedures. And you just don't have the time for getting yourself into the proper frame of mind when you've got an enemy orcish barbarian trying to stick his greataxe through your rib cage.

Tvtyrant
2011-01-09, 12:18 AM
It kind of reminds me of Dragonlance where one of the Draconians cast arcane spells, but he got them as a Cleric does and Tiamat (Tahkisis) gave him the spells she felt like instead of exactly what he asked for.

Kaiser Omnik
2011-01-09, 01:55 AM
You don't cast spells. God does. But the time it takes to ask for a spell is too long for use in combat; essentially you ask Him for a lot of magic and hope you guessed what you need. A Cleric cannot cast magic themselves at all (or a Druid).

And Clerics of Ideals/Alignements?

turkishproverb
2011-01-09, 03:21 AM
And Clerics of Ideals/Alignements?

The Force.

That's right, I said it. Yoda was ClericZilla.

Tvtyrant
2011-01-09, 03:29 AM
And Clerics of Ideals/Alignements?

Get their spells from gods that share those ideals. They put out the spells for their clerics and simply steal them :P

Or we could make it more metaphysical and make two overlapping webs of magic; arcane magic which is the stuff of reality, and divine magic which is from outside of reality. The Clerics all draw their spells from the outside web, which is manipulated by the will of the user as opposed to following set laws. However it can only be used in a relatively few ways, and so only so many Cleric spells can exist. This then connects to the fact that Miracle doesn't cost XP; the Cleric has finally figured out how to use the Divine Essence as a god does, though much less of it.

Fizban
2011-01-09, 04:32 AM
It also has the unfortunate side-effect of making spell research to create new spells a non-option for clerics, or _very_ strange as every cleric in the multiverse suddenly finds a new spell on their list.

I don't have a source, but I believe the way this work was that the individual who researches the spell can use it, but other people can't unless the cleric teaches it to them or their deity decides to release it to others of the faith. Might have been general advice in the DMG?

Yuki Akuma
2011-01-09, 05:24 AM
And Clerics of Ideals/Alignements?

According to the Athar, the Great Unknown, the source of the Gods' powers.

After all, Athar clerics gain spells too, and they specifically don't worship anything.

dextercorvia
2011-01-09, 08:41 AM
I don't have a source, but I believe the way this work was that the individual who researches the spell can use it, but other people can't unless the cleric teaches it to them or their deity decides to release it to others of the faith. Might have been general advice in the DMG?

Indeed. It is in the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/divineSpells.htm#divineIndependentResearch)

Coidzor
2011-01-09, 08:48 AM
Get their spells from gods that share those ideals. They put out the spells for their clerics and simply steal them :P

Forgotten Realms isn't the only campaign setting. :smalltongue:

Ytaker
2011-01-09, 09:34 AM
Clerics magic is inherently multiplanar. They draw it from a being in another plane. That probably gives them a big advantage in spell sourcing. Even if the spells aren't open source in their plane, maybe in another plane they are open source.

Callista
2011-01-09, 09:38 AM
Heh. Yeah, connecting yourself to, say, Celestia or the Positive Energy Plane can't exactly be easy either...

Necroticplague
2011-01-09, 09:48 AM
So basically, Gods are arms dealers.

Yes, down to the fact that you pick whichever one gives you your favorite weapon (domains) and that they can completely blow you away if you piss them off.

Callista
2011-01-09, 10:38 AM
It's like some kind of a cold war... the gods want the world to stay around, and if they unleash their full power, it'll end up as scorched earth, so they fight by proxy... and your little 25-HP cleric is stuck in the middle. (Got your will written up yet? You should...)

Yuki Akuma
2011-01-09, 01:11 PM
It's like some kind of a cold war... the gods want the world to stay around, and if they unleash their full power, it'll end up as scorched earth, so they fight by proxy... and your little 25-HP cleric is stuck in the middle. (Got your will written up yet? You should...)

Well, no, not even the gods could completely sterilise a planet. The areas of effect for their divine powers are measured in dozens of miles. And that's just the most powerful ones.

They could, say, sterilise a city or a small country, but not a planet.

Callista
2011-01-09, 01:17 PM
Well, sure, a single god and a single ability could only sterilize a single city. But if multiple gods got into a fight, it wouldn't just be one nuke that got dropped.