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Gorgondantess
2011-01-31, 12:09 AM
At the end of the day, though, abilities can be tweaked and rebalanced. Off target flavor is a lot harder to handle.

I really think that the biggest problem with the Pseudonatural creature isn't that it's unbalanced, but that it feels like 95% Alienist and 5% Pseudonatural Creature. Those aspects of the class that I might ascribe to the Pseudonatural Creature (namely, the transformations) could and would (and are? I don't have access to my books) easily be an Alienist class feature. The class, in the end, feels like an Alienist, in flavor, scope and role. It's an interesting approach, and it sells the Mythos aspects, but it doesn't come across as a Pseudonatural creature. I don't think that's just my inherent bias, either. I think it's genuinely off target.

Pseudonatural creatures aren't casters, as the Gorgondantess variant portrays them. They're like chaos spawn from Warhammer, or Shoggoths. They're aberrations half outside reality that might vaguely resemble something you could recognize one moment, then become writhing masses of tentacles the next. Their schtick is that, half outside of reality, they can phase through objects and reach into your chest to tear out your heart. That and the whole 'turn into mind-bending horrors' bit.

The argument that the Pseudonatural creature is supposed to encompass or blend both the Pseudonatural creature and the Alienist seems off target. If I wanted an Alienist, I'd homebrew one, or roll one up. If I want a Pseudonatural creature, I'd rather have my chaos-spawny hybrid or face melting Shoggoth. I just don't see the merit in blurring the two. Especially when one class (alienist) can end up summoning the other (pseudonatural creatures).

So yeah, that's my biggest concern with the class at present.

Well, okay then. I was thinking, when it came to pseudonatural creature, a minor great old one, like Cthulhu's spawn, or perhaps a lesser other god. Something with more than just physical capabilities- both of these creatures are inherently magical, and don't just maul things.
If that's the case, I can always publish this somewhere else, and you can do the pseudonatural creature.

Mystic Muse
2011-01-31, 12:23 AM
Since you're both on I'm going to ask again.

Can anybody think of some good abilities to give the hellfire wyrm? I need an 18th and 19th level ability, and I would prefer that it wasn't another SLA as it already gets 20.

Although, if it would work better I can post what I have now.

Gorgondantess
2011-01-31, 12:27 AM
Since you're both on I'm going to ask again.

Can anybody think of some good abilities to give the hellfire wyrm? I need an 18th and 19th level ability, and I would prefer that it wasn't another SLA as it already gets 20.

Although, if it would work better I can post what I have now.

Definitely. I don't know anything about the hellfire wyrm, and I don't know what you already have. My first idea for an 18th/19th level ability was making the breath weapon hellfire (1/2 fire damage, 1/2 untyped), but it probably just naturally has that as a part of the breath weapon.

Mystic Muse
2011-01-31, 12:31 AM
Hellfire Wyrm located in monster manual 2

http://i1206.photobucket.com/albums/bb443/Zernobog888/Decorated%20images/Hellfirewyrm.jpg

Before you say anything about the lack of wings or tail slap attack, the original monster didn't have them either. Hence the increase in maneuverability.


HD:d12
{TABLE]Level | BAB | Fort | Ref | Will | Feature
1|+1|+2|+0|+2| Hellfire Wyrm body, Level 1 SLAs, Alternate form.
2|+2|+3|+0|+3| Keen Senses, Hellfire Breath,
3|+3|+3|+1|+3| Hellfire Aura, +1 Strength
4|+4|+4|+1|+4| Wings, Level 2 SLAS, +1 Charisma
5|+5|+4|+1|+4| Summon Devil +1 Constitution
6|+6|+5|+2|+5| Burrow, Level 3 SLAS +1 Charisma
7|+7|+5|+2|+5| Persuasive,
8|+8|+6|+2|+5| Level 4 SLAS +1 Charisma
9|+9|+6|+3|+6| Growth, +1 Strength, +1 Constitution.
10|+10| +7|+3|+7| Level 5 SLAs +1 Charisma
11|+11| +7|+3|+7| Molten scales +1 Constitution
12|+12| +8|+4|+8| Greater weapon of Hell, +1 Strength
13|+13| +8|+4|+8| Temptation of Hell +1 Strength
14|+14| +9|+4|+9| Level 7 SLAS +1 Charisma
15|+15| +9|+5|+9| Growth, crush, Frightful Presence +1 Strength, +1 Constitution
16|+16|+10|+5|+10| Level 8 SLAS +1 Charisma
17|+17|+10|+5|+10| Master Weapon of Hell, +1 Strength
18|+18|+11|+6|+11| +1 Constitution
19|+19|+11|+6|+11|
20|+20|+12|+6|+12| +1 strength, +1 constitution, +1 Charisma[/table]

6 Skill points+int per level, quadruple at 1st level. Class skills: Bluff Diplomacy Intimidate, Jump Knowledge, Listen, Search, Spot.

Proficiencies: a Hellfire Wyrm isn't proficient with any armor or weapons, besides his own natural weapons


Hellfire Wyrm Body: The Hellfire Wyrm loses all other racial bonuses, and gains Hellfire Wyrm traits, fire subtype, bite 1d8 damage+Str mod, 2 claws attack for 1d6 +1/2 Str mod damage each and 40 base speed, medium size. The Hellfire Wyrm has wings, but they're too weak to do anything for now. His claws are capable of fine manipulation and can be used for somatic components of spellcasting or anything else a human hand could do.

The Hellfire Wyrm also gets a natural armor bonus equal to its Constitution modifier. Whenever the Hellfire Wyrm grows one size category, his natural armor increases by a further 1.

The Hellfire Wyrm has immunity to fire, but takes 50% more damage from cold attacks.

SLAs: The Hellfire wyrm gains SLAs based on its level. The first level SLAs are gained at level 1, and the others are gained at level 4, 6, 8, 10, 14, and 16, in that order.

All SLAs are usable 1/x times a day per HD, where X is the spell's level mentioned in this list. As an example, Unhallow is usable 1/day per 5 HD, and Blasphemy is usable 1/day per 7 HD.

Level 1 SLAs: Charm person, Undetectable alignment
Level 2 SLAs: Desecrate, pyrotechnics, misdirection
Level 3 SLAs: Suggestion, hold person,
Leve; 4 SLAs: Wall of fire, greater invisibility, sending
Level 5 SLAS: Unhallow, true seeing, greater dispel magic
Level 7 SLAs: Blasphemy, dictum, Teleport greater
Level 8 SLAs: Demand, unholy aura, fire storm,

Alternate form The Hellfire wyrm can assume any animal or humanoid form of Medium size or smaller as a standard action 1/day for each HD it has. The wyrm can remain in its animal or humanoid form until it chooses to assume a new one or return to its natural form.


Hellfire Breath: At second level the Hellfire Wyrm gains a breath weapon. The breath weapon is a 30 foot cone dealing 1d6 damage/HD, hellfire damage, with a reflex save DC of 10+1/2 HD+Constitution modifier for half an takes 1d4 rounds to recharge. The cone increases by 5 feet for every extra hit die the dragon gains. Hellfire damage is half fire damage, half untyped.

Weapon of Hell: at second level, All natural weapons are treated as lawful and evil for the purposes of overcoming damage reduction.

Hellfire Aura: At third level, the Hellfire wyrm starts radiating the raw powers of hell. Any creature within the natural reach the Hellfire wyrm takes 1d4 Hellfire damage. Every 2 HD beyond this point, increase the amount of damage dealt by 1d4. This aura can be suppressed or activated as a free action.

Wings: At 4th level the Hellfire wyrm becomes able to fly at the speed of 10 ft. per HD, with average maneuverability.

Summon Devil: Twice per day, the Hellfire Wyrm can summon reinforcements, depending on its HD:

3 HD:2 lemures
8 HD:2 bearded devils
10 HD:1 erineyes
12 HD:2 bone devils
14 HD:1 ice devil
18 HD:1 horned devil

Burrow: At level 6 the Hellfire Wyrm gains a burrow speed equal to its base land speed.

Persuasive: At level 7, the Hellfire Wyrm gains a Racial bonus to bluff and diplomacy checks equal to half its HD

Growth: At 9th level the Hellfire Wyrm grows to large size and at 15th level he grows to huge size. His AC, bonus to hit, base damage, grapple and skills change accordingly, but he doesn't get any ability score bonuses or penalties.

Tainted Skin: At 11th level the Hellfire wyrm gains DR/Good and magic equal to half his HD and spell resistance equal to 11+HD.

Improved Weapon of hell:. At level 12, the Hellfire Wyrm's weapons are considered to be all forms of evil alignment for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.

Temptation of Hell: At level 13 all SLAs with the mind affecting descriptor gain a +2 caster level and they can now affect creatures immune to mind affecting. Creatures that would normally be immune to mind affecting receive a +4 bonus on their saving throw.

Crush: At 15th level the dragon can make a crush attack dealing 2d8 damage base, already taking in account huge size

This special attack allows a flying or jumping dragon of at least Huge size to land on opponents as a standard action, using its whole body to crush them. Crush attacks are effective only against opponents three or more size categories smaller than the dragon (though it can attempt normal overrun or grapple attacks against larger opponents).

A crush attack affects as many creatures as can fit under the dragon’s body. Creatures in the affected area must succeed on a Reflex save (DC equal to that of the dragon’s breath weapon) or be pinned, automatically taking bludgeoning damage during the next round unless the dragon moves off them. If the dragon chooses to maintain the pin, treat it as a normal grapple attack. Pinned opponents take damage from the crush each round if they don’t escape.

A crush attack deals the indicated damage plus 1½ times the dragon’s Strength bonus (round down).


Frightful Presence: at 15th level the dragon gains frightful presence. The ability takes effect automatically whenever the dragon attacks or charges. Enemies within a radius of 30 feet × half the dragon's level are subject to the effect if they have fewer HD than the dragon. A potentially affected enemy that succeeds on a Will save (DC 10 + ½ dragon’s HD + dragon’s Charisma modifier) remains immune to that dragon’s frightful presence for 24 hours. On a failure, enemies with 4 or less HD become panicked for 4d6 rounds and those with 5 or more HD become shaken for 4d6 rounds. Dragons ignore the frightful presence of other dragons.

Master Weapon of Hell: At level 17, the Wyrm's natural weapons now deal an extra 3 hellfire damage with each attack. This increases by 3 every 3 HD.

Hyudra
2011-01-31, 10:53 AM
"Hellfire Wyrms are expert tacticians"

To me, that says 'battlefield control'. The ability to take to the sky and drop blasts of flame that leave daunting blazes in their path? Make craters or trenches with the impacts of their blasts? The ability to draw geysers of magma and hellfire from the ground?

Hyudra
2011-01-31, 05:55 PM
Swarmshifter:
Looks pretty good.
The prerequisite is a tad dry, though. As I said before, the prerequisite for entering the class should be something of an event, which introduces the flavor of the class to the rest of the gaming table. Having it be something any corporeal undead can enter kind of takes away from the value and the flavor of the class.

Gibbering Mouther
Ground manipulation: The effect continuing on foes who escape the area is a bit weird.
"As a full round action, a Gibbering Mouther of 4th level can cause stone and earth in a 10 foot radius per 4 HD to become quicksand. " - wording is a bit awkward, for the underlined area.
Wording for ground manipulation overall is kind of confusing, and I'm just kind of confused about how it works. It causes area around you to become difficult terrain, but after enemies leave, the effect persists on them for 3 rounds? And after 3 rounds, they have to save or sink? Does that apply to those who move out of the area?

Jovoc
I still have reservations about the retributive aura bogging down combat (you're attacked by six goblins. Each lands one attack. That's a potential 36 saving throws & damage calculations) and abuse (Allies attacking you for AoE damage).
Not sure which abilities are maneuvers (if any), but it bears stressing that we shouldn't copy copyrighted material into the entries.

Gargoyle
Butchery does seem to allow for additional legs (bonus on balance checks)
Don't know that I like the OR repeated through the text. It's untidy.
'Gargoyle' shouldn't appear in blue.
Still not a fan of the swim/burrow.
Flight comes a tad too early, IMHO. It's fairly standard to get it at 4th at the earliest (for flight based creatures) and fifth otherwise.
Statuesque Perfection - As I read it, I can get a second growth from this, giving me huge size at 4th.

Remorhaz
2d6 damage is a mite much at 2nd, as I see it. Reduce to 2d6 and scale up differently?
Otherwise, just going by the changelog & not double checking my list of critiques, I see no problems with changed abilities.

Ragewalker
No changelog?
It doesn't seem that great at fighting for an incarnation of war. Non-full BAB and no str bonuses?
Way too much AC, still, scaling up far too fast.
Some of my previous critiques were ignored. Under fast healing, you use 'gains', which could mislead some poor souls.
You've left the 'blade cloud' rather unclear. You refer to 1d6, but don't state that it's damage in the same sentence.
You should integrate the damage type in that sentence. So instead of
succeed on a successful reflex save each round or take 1d6 for every 4 HD the Ragewalker possesses. This damage is slashing and piercing and damage reduction applies normally.
you'd have:

succeed on a successful reflex save each round or take 1d6 slashing/piercing damage for every 4 HD the Ragewalker possesses. Damage reduction applies as normal.
I still get the impression it would bog down combat. You can have it available for a lot of rounds, a lot of encounters, adding up to a lot of little saving throws and damage calculations.
Blade storm master - I'd restructure this so the number of points isn't detailed at the very end. It's confusing to read as is.
Arguably still too many points in Blade Storm Master.

Flesh Golem
I like the ability name "Fire Bad!"
I'd specify "A magic attack that deals electric damage to the golem..."
And get rid of the comma after Flesh Golem in the same sentence.
Specify that the golem is immune to lightning damage.
I'd erase the mention of 5% chance, and just leave the '1 on initiative check' bit there, to avoid confusion.
Still unclear in use of 'cha mod of the enemy' under abnormal mind. What happens if there's multiple enemies?
Consider replacing stunned in Indomitable Charge with Dazed.

Basilisk
Near perfect. Make Gorgondantess' recommended changes & it's good for the list.

Cloaker
Base land speed 10' is brutal.
Languages? Fine manipulation?
In an ability's description, state when the ability is gained. ie. "At second level, the cloaker can fly up to 40' to engulf a target."
Engulfing Leap - state that the cloaker can only make the leap if he has a target to try and engulf at the destination.
If the cloaker fails to engulf in a engulfing leap, where does it end up? Same square as the target? Square in front, square just past target?
Under cloak, should state the wearer is willing.
How does mutual defenses interact with the standard 'half damage dealt to the cloaker is dealt to the victim', described earlier?
No save vs. Unnerve?
Under moan, 'nausea' - what are penalties for weakness?

Razor Boar
I'm a stickler for standardized formatting. 'Vorpal Body' isn't an accurate description or identifier for the Razor Boar racial features. Rename to Razor Boar Body?
We don't give monsters both full BAB and Str bonuses. Brute monsters get 3/4 BAB and Str bonuses.
Include a spoilered version of trample rules for Trample?
I like that you gave scent a unique bonus to the ability (I've been striving to do this for every creature that gets scent), but I think the bonus is perhaps a little too easy to get, for the quality of the bonus (10' move and ignore difficult terrain).
I'd scale back Sharp Tusks to a single step bonus, and give another bonus at a later point (at, for a completely arbitrary example, say, 10HD)
Under growth, I'd state that it becomes a large (long) creature, rather than having the reminder about it being long appear in a separate sentence.
The +2 to natural armor under growth may be a bit much. +1?
Unstoppable is perhaps too good. I'd reword the HD/5 to 'once a day per 5 HD' and change the duration from 'equal to its HD' to something like 'equal to the Razor Boar's Con mod or its HD, whichever is less'. Keeps it in the realm of sanity at mid levels.
I think Razor Tusks is a little too synergistic with other class features. Consider that the Boar could pick up the keen property, get the Sharp Tusks bonus, get improved critical, and ultimately get vorpal. That's... a very good chance (20%?) to get crits, with up to a x5 multiplier?. Tone down?
Reflexive Gore needs a bit of tidying up, grammar wise: "When a foe fails their reflex save or misses their attack of opportunity against the trampling boar provokes an attack of opportunity from the boar."
Too many passive abilities, perhaps. Not enough stuff that the player can choose to use in combat. It boils down to 'attack and cross fingers, rinse, repeat, maybe trample from time to time, and hope enemies provoke reflexive gore'.

Ettercap
Should be a 3 level class.
Ettercaps don't appear to have armor proficiency, as you outline. It does have natural armor, which you don't mention under Ettercap body
The save vs. web should scale, so it's not completely useless at higher level, and I recommend using standard DC scaling (10 + 1/2 Ettercap HD + Ettercap {stat, probably Con} mod)
The bonus is a little high for the Master Climber. Maybe let it take 10 instead, even when threatened/damaged?
I'd rename synergy.
You refer to effective druid levels, which is kind of confusing, under Spider Companion.

Skeroloth
"nd an additional +1 dodge bonus to AC for every 5 HD the Skeroloth has against the target of the feint for one round." -- Confusing. Clarify? (and if I'm reading it right, you need another way to define this, because it looks awkward even if I try to interpret it favorably)
Languages?
"Edit: I don't know why the picture wastes space like that..." - should be removed.
I'd rework cringe so it's an option. Not sure what it does (don't have access to my books), but it sounds fun.

Troll
Fantastic!

Lodestone Marauder
Lodestone Marauder Body: Thanks for keeping to the '{creature name} body'. Too many ignore this. However, the ability doesn't appear on the table.
Can it speak?
Magnetic defense: The AC bonus may be too high.
It receives a bonus equal to its HD against electric spells and abilities... how? Reduced damage? To saving throws? Might make more sense to just give it resistance.
"within a 10ft+5ft/2HD cone." is a little awkward. Reword to "within a 10' cone, which extends a further 5' per 2HD of the Lodestone Marauder."?
Lesser Magnetic Attraction: What happens when the items reach the Lodestone Marauder?
Magnetic Wrecking - I'd make it simply do damage, rather than destroy items outright, to give magic items an added defense against the effect.
Magnetic Crushing Charge - A little awkwardly worded. I'd remove mention of the bite and just describe it as a magnetic crush that adds to the power of the charge.
Magnetic Repulsion - remember when I asked what happens to items that reach the lodestone marauder? I'd rework repulsion so you can turn items into projectiles, cutting or slashing at enemies as you repulse. Reduce the other effects, naturally, for balance's sake.
Magnetic Attraction - I'd change the description to "As Lesser Magnetic Attraction except ______", to cut down on redundancy.
Unstoppable Force - "up to 5fHD beneath it" - doesn't make sense. Typo? Even if I read that as 5' per HD, it's still fairly hard to fathom.
Ditto for Immovable Object.
Magneto-Kinetic Mastery: A little powerful when you consider that you can force enemies to provoke attacks of opportunity, move allies to advantageous locations, push enemies off cliffs, all without a save.
Also, can I move different objects in different directions?
What happens if I move each of an enemy's weapons in two directions.
Biological Supermagnet: I hate the word permanent. Don't use it unless you mean forever, even if you use wish/spells to try and change the fact.
Overall, I like the Lodestone Marauder.

Skipped creatures that haven't been updated in 2011. Gorgondantess and I were talking about a rule that lets others take up monsters that have been effectively 'abandoned' for a set time. Maybe something like 'Creatures untouched for 1 month are up for grabs'. But to keep people from starting monsters & abandoning them to make others do the dirty work, a note of something like: "Abandoned monsters that are adopted by new posters (with the ok of a council member) can be revised or altered wholesale, so no guarantee the original poster's work will be preserved.".

Saidoro
2011-01-31, 09:00 PM
Cloaker
Base land speed 10' is brutal. It has engulf for in combat mobility and can easily ride party members out of combat, I don't see it as a problem.
Languages? Fine manipulation? I will add these.
In an ability's description, state when the ability is gained. ie. "At second level, the cloaker can fly up to 40' to engulf a target." Engulfing Leap is a first level ability.
Engulfing Leap - state that the cloaker can only make the leap if he has a target to try and engulf at the destination. Okay.
If the cloaker fails to engulf in a engulfing leap, where does it end up? Same square as the target? Square in front, square just past target? Clarified.
Under cloak, should state the wearer is willing. Done.
How does mutual defenses interact with the standard 'half damage dealt to the cloaker is dealt to the victim', described earlier? Cloak is not engulf, the half damage thing is for engulf.
No save vs. Unnerve? For the -2 to attack and damage? No. It's not a huge effect and its range is such that you will almost certainly catch allies as well as enemies.
Under moan, 'nausea' - what are penalties for weakness? Falling prone? That was copypasta from th monster entry.

Razor Boar
I'm a stickler for standardized formatting. 'Vorpal Body' isn't an accurate description or identifier for the Razor Boar racial features. Rename to Razor Boar Body? Okay.
We don't give monsters both full BAB and Str bonuses. Brute monsters get 3/4 BAB and Str bonuses. Okay.
Include a spoilered version of trample rules for Trample? Okay.
I like that you gave scent a unique bonus to the ability (I've been striving to do this for every creature that gets scent), but I think the bonus is perhaps a little too easy to get, for the quality of the bonus (10' move and ignore difficult terrain). I will change it to ignores terrain for the purpose of determining overland movement speed. Would that be better?
I'd scale back Sharp Tusks to a single step bonus, and give another bonus at a later point (at, for a completely arbitrary example, say, 10HD) Okay.
Under growth, I'd state that it becomes a large (long) creature, rather than having the reminder about it being long appear in a separate sentence. Okay.
The +2 to natural armor under growth may be a bit much. +1? Okay.
Unstoppable is perhaps too good. I'd reword the HD/5 to 'once a day per 5 HD' and change the duration from 'equal to its HD' to something like 'equal to the Razor Boar's Con mod or its HD, whichever is less'. Keeps it in the realm of sanity at mid levels. Alright.
I think Razor Tusks is a little too synergistic with other class features. Consider that the Boar could pick up the keen property, get the Sharp Tusks bonus, get improved critical, and ultimately get vorpal. That's... a very good chance (20%?) to get crits, with up to a x5 multiplier?. Tone down? More than that even, since the keen property would double the bonus from sharp tusks. On the other hand, they're getting one attack a round at a level where even rogues are getting two, they can't normally enchant their tusks, and the chance of a high crit still isn't terribly reliable. I don't see it as an issue, if you'd care to argue otherwise you are welcome to.
Reflexive Gore needs a bit of tidying up, grammar wise: "When a foe fails their reflex save or misses their attack of opportunity against the trampling boar provokes an attack of opportunity from the boar." Fixed.
Too many passive abilities, perhaps. Not enough stuff that the player can choose to use in combat. It boils down to 'attack and cross fingers, rinse, repeat, maybe trample from time to time, and hope enemies provoke reflexive gore'. Working on this.

So, I've more or less given up on making enough interesting primary actions to fill up the razor boar's numerous levels and have decided to supplement any I do manage to come up with with swift actions that give the boar a respectable bonus for a single round and a few immediate action reactions to stuff your opponents do. The ones I've come up with so far are a strength bonus at first level, temporary hitpoints at second, and an ability to disarm people who stab you at third, I'll probably think a few up for later levels that look empty later.

Frog Dragon
2011-02-01, 12:08 AM
Skeroloth
"nd an additional +1 dodge bonus to AC for every 5 HD the Skeroloth has against the target of the feint for one round." -- Confusing. Clarify? (and if I'm reading it right, you need another way to define this, because it looks awkward even if I try to interpret it favorably)
Languages?
"Edit: I don't know why the picture wastes space like that..." - should be removed.
I'd rework cringe so it's an option. Not sure what it does (don't have access to my books), but it sounds fun.

I reworked the wording on Feign Weakness, added languages and dropped the footnote.
Cringe was left out, because what it does is a standard action move that stops other from attacking you, essentially making the critter supernaturally pathetic. I didn't think this was well... cool enough for a player character, so I accentuated their careful and backstabbing natures another way instead.

TheGeckoKing
2011-02-01, 10:54 AM
Swarmshifter:
Looks pretty good.
The prerequisite is a tad dry, though. As I said before, the prerequisite for entering the class should be something of an event, which introduces the flavor of the class to the rest of the gaming table. Having it be something any corporeal undead can enter kind of takes away from the value and the flavor of the class.


Well, how about something out of The Mummy;

"The Swarmshifer candidate must endure a three day process of being sealed in a coffin/sarcophagus, eaten by insects contained inside, and having them absorb your tainted essence, converting them into your own new body."

Is that OK?

Also, was the Vivisector/Pandoryrm mssed out on purpose? Pandoryrm is big and I need to post the Epic Levels once the main 20 looks OK (Yes, I HAVE updated it.), sure, but what about my Eldritch Scyther? He needs love too :smallfrown:

Hyudra
2011-02-01, 11:18 AM
Well, how about something out of The Mummy;

"The Swarmshifer candidate must endure a three day process of being sealed in a coffin/sarcophagus, eaten by insects contained inside, and having them absorb your tainted essence, converting them into your own new body."

Is that OK?

Also, was the Vivisector/Pandoryrm mssed out on purpose? Pandoryrm is big and I need to post the Epic Levels once the main 20 looks OK (Yes, I HAVE updated it.), sure, but what about my Eldritch Scyther? He needs love too :smallfrown:

Vivisector was reviewed and critiqued on page 5 of this thread. You're complaining that you want another comprehensive review, less than a week later? Rest assured, I'll get to it again before terribly long.

Black Dragon and Pandorym, as 20 level classes, are as much as a hassle as reviewing a half dozen 5-10 level classes. I'll review them as individual efforts, in the next few days.

TheGeckoKing
2011-02-01, 11:51 AM
Vivisector was reviewed and critiqued on page 5 of this thread. You're complaining that you want another comprehensive review, less than a week later? Rest assured, I'll get to it again before terribly long.

Black Dragon and Pandorym, as 20 level classes, are as much as a hassle as reviewing a half dozen 5-10 level classes. I'll review them as individual efforts, in the next few days.

My bad. I just thought you were ignoring me :smalltongue:. And Frog Dragon is doing a new version of the Black Dragon now (His is way cooler, complete with cooler pic), unless your talking to him, or me, or....or......ow. My skull.

Anyway, Gecko's Sporadic Question Time!
Q: Does anyone have ideas for what they would like to see in Pandorym's epic levels? All i've got so far is taking Pandorym's more powerful abilities as a monster, and converting them for player use. And turning into a living Sphere of Annihilation as a capstone, just like it's original body (No, seriously. Read the book. A 30 freaking foot Sphere of Annihilation).

bladesmith
2011-02-01, 12:03 PM
Remorhaz

* 2d6 damage is a mite much at 2nd, as I see it. Reduce to 2d6 and scale up differently?
* Otherwise, just going by the changelog & not double checking my list of critiques, I see no problems with changed abilities.

I assume you meant for me to reduce it to 1d6? Anywho, I did drop it to 1d6, just to see how that will work out, but I'm not sure about it scaling all that differently. I mean, there isn't really a need to change how it scales that I can see.

Also, I added a bit under Lurker, with the burrow speeds, about it burrowing faster through ice while Heat is going. Made sense, and doesn't make that much of a difference, but I thought it had good flavor, and was cool. Or hot. Whatever. Bad puns aside, let me know if the wording seems right.

Otherwise, if anyone else would like to take a look at the Remorhaz, you are quite welcome. I haven't had time to get back here for reviewing yet, but I can most certainly read and make changes.

Gorgondantess
2011-02-01, 07:30 PM
Gargoyle:
Claws shouldn't arbitrarily be 1.5x str mod.
Bonus to hide checks should scale.

Chiseled Armaments:
Butchery: so... if they get a slam... does that mean my gargoyle needs to have a club sticking out of his chest?:smalltongue:
Hideous visage is pretty lame. First of all, just give it intimidate as a class skill- it fits. Secondly, do you realize how incredibly lame demoralize is? Shaken for 1 round, whoopdeedoo. It's a waste of a standard action, in other words.

Sudden strike should scale. Something like an additional 1d6 at 5 HD and every 5 thereafter? Don't want to give potential for a sudden striking beast, but by 6th level or so a mere 1d6 is looking pretty lame... let alone level 20.
Filthy Talons save DC is off. 10+1/2HD+ability mod is the general rule.

Um... snatch on a medium, level 1 creature...:smalleek: No. Same with awesome blow, really. Those are to represent simple massiveness.
Ability boost... when do they get a bonus to constitution?

Zealous carving's bonus to saves is a little high, but OK. Metabolic redundancy: it's called fortification. Avoiding precision damage/crits/sneak attack. And what you've got is a liiiiittle low.

Growth doesn't need to scale.
Water bullets... wow. Pretty powerful. Reduce the damage to 1d6 every 2 HD, at least.

What's the action for overwhelming stench?

Carved mobility: why oh why would anyone, for any reason, take swimming or burrowing over flight?

Statuesque perfection: make it 3 from the first, 2 from the 2nd, or 1 from the third.

Stone Cold Metabolism: Just copy undead or construct traits and pare it down for immunities and such. Lots of redundancy there. Secondly, you never actually said they can't take actions while in metabolic stasis...:smallconfused:

Gibbering Mouther:
Blood drain: so... a fire giant- 7,000 pounds (y'know humvees? yeah, one of those plus a sedan), strength 31, can't move if it has a, eh, 500 lb. max gibbering mouther latched onto it? Moving on...

Gibbering: so at 3rd level the gibbering mouther gets something that's a widened widened 4th level spell? yeahno. Lesser confusion would be better until 7 HD, and then the sonic damage is just a little excessive, especially in the fact that it's quite a bit of damage for sonic damage. I'd either tone it down quite a bit, or wait until much later.
Making it not a mind-affecting effect is brutal... and then at 20th level it's just a no save, just suck, even if you're immune? WOW. Just... yeah, wow.

Engulf: how many mouths?

Thorn:
Stagger out the weapon enhancement bonus & weapon special abilities. Also... what about, y'know, every other round other than their charisma or wisdom mod? Maybe make it permanent at level 4? Or even just waiting until level 4 to bring up the enhancement bonus at all, in that case.

Not TOO much of a problem, but the ranged under weapon of barbs is flat out better than melee.

Other than that, looking OK.

Nycaloth:
Okay... so... um...
First of all, list the abilities in chronological order.
Secondly, standardized yugoloth traits can be found on the 2nd level ability of the marraenoloth. Speaking of which, it would be better if you altered the SLAs to follow the same format.
9th level is a little late for SR.
Finally, a little bland. Try giving it some unique abilities.
Same complaint with the
Mezzoloth:, really. Just a chassis with a bunch of SLAs is boring. I mean, look at what Hyudra did with the troll, or the manticore, or the basilisk. Now, we can't all be that awesome, but we can at least try.

Hyudra
2011-02-01, 09:13 PM
Nycaloth:
Okay... so... um...
First of all, list the abilities in chronological order.
Secondly, standardized yugoloth traits can be found on the 2nd level ability of the marraenoloth. Speaking of which, it would be better if you altered the SLAs to follow the same format.
9th level is a little late for SR.
Finally, a little bland. Try giving it some unique abilities.
Same complaint with the
Mezzoloth:, really. Just a chassis with a bunch of SLAs is boring. I mean, look at what Hyudra did with the troll, or the manticore, or the basilisk. Now, we can't all be that awesome, but we can at least try.

Thanks for that, G.D.

A few tips:
If the class is too feature rich to add abilities, consider replacing SLAs with abilities that do something very similar, but with flavor and tweaks to make it better fit for the monster. I took this approach with the Storm Giant. Levitate scrapped, replaced with Thundercloud Throne, Chain Lightning becomes a replacement for the eldritch-blast-like Zap. Yadda yadda.
Read up on the monster. There's flavor text, there's magazine articles (Ecology of the ______ in Dragon Magazine, for example) and there's stories or myths. One scene, passage or line can inspire an ability.
Find a good picture. Try going out of your way to find a picture other than the official one from the magazine. The act of sorting through what's available might give you ideas, as far as the general tone and style of the monster.
Emphasize active over passive. Figure out what defines the monster, or the playstyle you want to engender, and then come up with abilities that support this. As a rule of thumb, try aiming for either one versatile action the player can take every other level, or one more strict action every level. The Basilisk is an example of a creature with a versatile action (You get Stone Eye, which lets you do one of two semi-petrifying gazes), while the Troll is more of a creature that gets something a little narrower, but gets stuff with pretty much every level.

This serves several purposes:
It makes the creature more interesting to the player. Having a level where you only get Growth or you only get DR might be ok balancewise, but it's not exciting to the player.
It helps bring the creature up in power level. One of the things that sets the Tier 5 classes apart from the Tier 1 classes is versatility. Tier 1 can do a wide range of stuff. Tier 5 get very few options (and aren't even particularly good at doing those few things). Options = power.
It reaffirms flavor. A lot of creatures get DR, SR, resistances. While it certainly gives you a general power boost, it doesn't give you the sense of being more 'demonic' or 'draconic'. An option to, in the middle of combat, tear out a portion of the enemy's soul and devour it to fuel your abilities is what makes you feel demonic. Being able to spread your wings and roar, making your enemies fall to their knees is what makes you feel like a dragon.

Gorgondantess
2011-02-01, 09:23 PM
An option to, in the middle of combat, tear out a portion of the enemy's soul and devour it to fuel your abilities is what makes you feel demonic. Being able to spread your wings and roar, making your enemies fall to their knees is what makes you feel like a dragon.[/list][/list]

And the ability to summon a little raft and ferry around your party members is what makes you feel like a Marraenoloth. Totally worth 10 levels.:smalltongue:

Hyudra
2011-02-01, 11:00 PM
And the ability to summon a little raft and ferry around your party members is what makes you feel like a Marraenoloth. Totally worth 10 levels.:smalltongue:

Depends on the license you wish to take. Keep in mind, Marraenoloth carry passengers of all shapes and stripes. Some, naturally, are set up to carry gargantuan or even colossal passengers down the Styx. Just throwing ideas out there, but consider a Marraenoloth who:
Calls forth a skiff that can pass through any terrain, that grows in size as the Marraenoloth gains HD.
Creates a shadowy replica of the River Styx that stretches across the battlefield.
Turns water into Styx Water, to douse opponents and cause them to lose (temporarily or no) skills or class features.
Can bind the forsworn into their service, gaining the ability to enslave the souls of those who cheat or break their word to the Marraenoloth and summarily pass away (often at the hands of the Marraenoloth itself). These 'Forsworn' can be called forth to carry out a set number of tasks in the service to the Marraenoloth they betrayed, in exchange for freedom.

Gorgondantess
2011-02-01, 11:38 PM
Depends on the license you wish to take. Keep in mind, Marraenoloth carry passengers of all shapes and stripes. Some, naturally, are set up to carry gargantuan or even colossal passengers down the Styx. Just throwing ideas out there, but consider a Marraenoloth who:
Calls forth a skiff that can pass through any terrain, that grows in size as the Marraenoloth gains HD.
Creates a shadowy replica of the River Styx that stretches across the battlefield.
Turns water into Styx Water, to douse opponents and cause them to lose (temporarily or no) skills or class features.
Can bind the forsworn into their service, gaining the ability to enslave the souls of those who cheat or break their word to the Marraenoloth and summarily pass away (often at the hands of the Marraenoloth itself). These 'Forsworn' can be called forth to carry out a set number of tasks in the service to the Marraenoloth they betrayed, in exchange for freedom.
Ummm... I've already done the Marraenoloth class, and I considered several of those. Well, they channeled the Styx with their touch, but other than that... yeah.

Hyudra
2011-02-02, 12:02 AM
Ah, well, there you go.

Browsing and double checking stuff is annoying when you're basically relegated to using your iTouch to post. Forgive my lamebrainedness. It's the medium, not the software.

ScionoftheVoid
2011-02-02, 05:02 AM
Gargoyle
Butchery does seem to allow for additional legs (bonus on balance checks)
Don't know that I like the OR repeated through the text. It's untidy.
'Gargoyle' shouldn't appear in blue.
Still not a fan of the swim/burrow.
Flight comes a tad too early, IMHO. It's fairly standard to get it at 4th at the earliest (for flight based creatures) and fifth otherwise.
Statuesque Perfection - As I read it, I can get a second growth from this, giving me huge size at 4th.

Fixed after a moment's editing.
That's still there? I've just skimmed it and can't find it.
Again, I removed this some time ago.
I could maybe make them advance faster?
I'll see what I can do, perhaps tieing in with the above idea.
Growth is an Improved Chiseled Armament, meaning it can only be taken once unless noted otherwise.


Lodestone Marauder
Lodestone Marauder Body: Thanks for keeping to the '{creature name} body'. Too many ignore this. However, the ability doesn't appear on the table.
Can it speak?
Magnetic defense: The AC bonus may be too high.
It receives a bonus equal to its HD against electric spells and abilities... how? Reduced damage? To saving throws? Might make more sense to just give it resistance.
"within a 10ft+5ft/2HD cone." is a little awkward. Reword to "within a 10' cone, which extends a further 5' per 2HD of the Lodestone Marauder."?
Lesser Magnetic Attraction: What happens when the items reach the Lodestone Marauder?
Magnetic Wrecking - I'd make it simply do damage, rather than destroy items outright, to give magic items an added defense against the effect.
Magnetic Crushing Charge - A little awkwardly worded. I'd remove mention of the bite and just describe it as a magnetic crush that adds to the power of the charge.
Magnetic Repulsion - remember when I asked what happens to items that reach the lodestone marauder? I'd rework repulsion so you can turn items into projectiles, cutting or slashing at enemies as you repulse. Reduce the other effects, naturally, for balance's sake.
Magnetic Attraction - I'd change the description to "As Lesser Magnetic Attraction except ______", to cut down on redundancy.
Unstoppable Force - "up to 5fHD beneath it" - doesn't make sense. Typo? Even if I read that as 5' per HD, it's still fairly hard to fathom.
Ditto for Immovable Object.
Magneto-Kinetic Mastery: A little powerful when you consider that you can force enemies to provoke attacks of opportunity, move allies to advantageous locations, push enemies off cliffs, all without a save.
Also, can I move different objects in different directions?
What happens if I move each of an enemy's weapons in two directions.
Biological Supermagnet: I hate the word permanent. Don't use it unless you mean forever, even if you use wish/spells to try and change the fact.
Overall, I like the Lodestone Marauder.

Whoops, will be fixed. Sorry about these errors. I tend to get something out quickly so any really bad ideas can be noticed and immediately discarded.
No, its mentioned in Lodestone Marauder Body, which I will clear up and organise as I go through it (but not now, I should really be studying).
Okay, I'll look over it.
Bonus to saving throws, dammit. I hate typos.
Will do.
I had a creeping feeling that I should have mentioned this somewhere, but couldn't find anywhere it fitted. Maybe a note in LM Body and the ability itself. Will be fixed, hopefully.
Okay, sensible.
Will do.
Ooh, that's a good idea. Expect it in the next edit.
That's almost a better idea, though a less exciting one.
Typo indeed. I was sure there was a "/" between those. It is per HD.
Ditto.
I'll remove the AoO provocations, but remember that it is a one-round action, you can't do anything during that turn. Any foe standing near enough to a cliff to be pushed off by a 5ft per 3HD movement deserves it, particularly if the Marauder has done anything else before they start charging up Mastery. I think I'll make it interruptable as a spell. That should remove many concerns.
Rewording will come with the next edit.



Gargoyle:
Claws shouldn't arbitrarily be 1.5x str mod.
Bonus to hide checks should scale.

Chiseled Armaments:
Butchery: so... if they get a slam... does that mean my gargoyle needs to have a club sticking out of his chest?:smalltongue:
Hideous visage is pretty lame. First of all, just give it intimidate as a class skill- it fits. Secondly, do you realize how incredibly lame demoralize is? Shaken for 1 round, whoopdeedoo. It's a waste of a standard action, in other words.

Sudden strike should scale. Something like an additional 1d6 at 5 HD and every 5 thereafter? Don't want to give potential for a sudden striking beast, but by 6th level or so a mere 1d6 is looking pretty lame... let alone level 20.
Filthy Talons save DC is off. 10+1/2HD+ability mod is the general rule.

Um... snatch on a medium, level 1 creature...:smalleek: No. Same with awesome blow, really. Those are to represent simple massiveness.
Ability boost... when do they get a bonus to constitution?

Zealous carving's bonus to saves is a little high, but OK. Metabolic redundancy: it's called fortification. Avoiding precision damage/crits/sneak attack. And what you've got is a liiiiittle low.

Growth doesn't need to scale.
Water bullets... wow. Pretty powerful. Reduce the damage to 1d6 every 2 HD, at least.

What's the action for overwhelming stench?

Carved mobility: why oh why would anyone, for any reason, take swimming or burrowing over flight?

Statuesque perfection: make it 3 from the first, 2 from the 2nd, or 1 from the third.

Stone Cold Metabolism: Just copy undead or construct traits and pare it down for immunities and such. Lots of redundancy there. Secondly, you never actually said they can't take actions while in metabolic stasis...:smallconfused:

First of all, they aren't.
The Hide bonus is a good catch, I'll edit that.

Does a Mummy have a club sticking out of its chest? Or a Vampire? No? Well there you are then.:smalltongue:

Wait a moment, Butchery? That's not what the ability is called anymore. Are you looking at a different version from me? I noticed this about when I got to Metabolic Redundancy, and it would explain a lot. I'll continue editing based on this review, but I suspect a communication failure, here.

Intimidate is now a class skill by default, Hideous Visage is now a move action.
Ambush Hunter, and all other base Chiseled Armaments can be taken more than once (though not two levels in a row), so it does scale (so long as you focus on it a bit).
I thought a disease on natural weapons was a bit powerful for level one with the full save DC, but that is now edited.
Snatch and Awesome Blow are both gone now, but I thought they'd be limited by a lack of Strength bonuses and Medium size.

That's now mentioned in the ability, as I'm looking at it. First and third levels.

Zealous is now two saves instead of all three.
Metabolic Redundancy is now scaling Fortification as part of Freeze.

Growth is now still scaling, but not in the same way. It does still need to scale somehow, to make up for only being taken once (see the Improved Chiseled Armaments ability).
I'll tone Water Bullets down as noted.
Overwhelming Stench no longer exists, due to the non-stacking of the sickened condition (where fear effects and fatigue stack) and the mass poison and nauseation immunity at high levels.

I may dial back the flight a notch and speed the progression of the other two. Besides, aquatic campaigns and dungeon crawls are well known adventuring options. I can see your problem with a swim speed, but burrow speeds are rather rare, having one allows you to outmaneuver many high level challenges, where flight would put you on even footing, if that.

Reasoning? What would you choose that could be powerful enough to warrant changing it? Three from the first list is rather powerful, allowing you to get 4d6 Sudden Strike at fourth level, in addition to other class features. Or you could have all the Imp. Armaments, since they're added to the first list. Or you could get four natural weapons, in addition to your claws, and add Stone Heavyweight to have the damage and reach improve. And no-one would ever choose to get two extra Stone Skin abilities or an extra movement type. I'd rather keep it as two from any list.

You see, if I had a Wisdom score a gnat didn't have to bend down to spit on, I'd have thought of something like that. On the other hand I'm fairly sure objects can't take actions, which is why it doesn't take an action to come out of.

I'll get some editing done, but I'll be leaving a lot of it for later. If I don't get to it over the weekend, someone please PM me.

Hyudra
2011-02-02, 09:19 AM
Wait a moment, Butchery? That's not what the ability is called anymore. Are you looking at a different version from me? I noticed this about when I got to Metabolic Redundancy, and it would explain a lot. I'll continue editing based on this review, but I suspect a communication failure, here.


Actually, my suspicion is that you reposted the class instead of editing the original post, which we've repeatedly asked people not to do, as it's confusing, and there was confusion as a result. So both Gorgon and I clicked on the link under 'unfinished monsters' to review your monster, reviewed it, and now we're not on the same page as you.

Go to the second or third post of this thread, find Gargoyle and click the link. Read through it. Figure out if you're talking about the same monster we are.

And for the record, people, do not post the same monster more than once (unless you're a new author doing a completely different version of an outdated monster, in which case you should have Council approval) and expect people to keep track of which is the most recent. It's a bad idea, it's messy, it's annoying and it's confusing. It doesn't remind anyone about your monster (We've got the unfinished monster list for that, and as long as you're active, we'll review your monsters sooner or later), and it tends to create chaos.

ScionoftheVoid
2011-02-02, 10:20 AM
Actually, my suspicion is that you reposted the class instead of editing the original post, which we've repeatedly asked people not to do, as it's confusing, and there was confusion as a result. So both Gorgon and I clicked on the link under 'unfinished monsters' to review your monster, reviewed it, and now we're not on the same page as you.

Okay, sorry, will never happen again. I had made a spoilered repost on the first page of this thread, which I had been editing. That post is now gone, and the entry in the Unfinished list is now the correct, up to date one. Again, sorry.

I haven't yet fixed a few things, but I've cleared up some minor things, with more major changes still in planning stages.

Makiru
2011-02-02, 09:02 PM
I would like to state that the solamith has undergone a few minor changes in the past that I would like a quick look at by somebody. Also, I haven't given up/abandoned on the garngrath; I've been sick for the past few days (still am) and haven't felt like doing any homebrewing at the moment.

mrcarter11
2011-02-02, 11:56 PM
Hello to all, first off, this may have been addressed somewhere else, but with 5 prior threads, I figure it would be simpler to ask.

Is there any reason why for monster such as the balor, pit fiend, and slaad it says that the gain outsider traits? Would that imply that they count as having the outsider type? And then why is it that the titan also gains the chaotic subtype while seemingly none of the other outsiders gain a subtype.

Gorgondantess
2011-02-03, 01:25 AM
Hello to all, first off, this may have been addressed somewhere else, but with 5 prior threads, I figure it would be simpler to ask.

Is there any reason why for monster such as the balor, pit fiend, and slaad it says that the gain outsider traits? Would that imply that they count as having the outsider type? And then why is it that the titan also gains the chaotic subtype while seemingly none of the other outsiders gain a subtype.

Well, the balor, slaad etc. are outsiders. Thus, they get outsider traits. Outsider traits includes, whaddya know, outsider type. And vice versa.
Balor does indeed gain a subtype. Just at level 2. It's just that... subtypes are so minor, we haven't bothered with a strict consistency. You have no idea how hard it is to just attempt to keep everything within the same stone's throw of balance, let alone keeping minor stuff like that internally consistent.
Satisfactory answer?

Hyudra
2011-02-03, 01:32 AM
Minotaur
http://i54.tinypic.com/10qbaz6.jpg
Monster Class
Monster Manual, SRD

Class
HD: D8

{table=head]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will |Special
1st|+0|+2|+2|+0| Minotaur Body, Headbutt, Sudden Charge, +1 Str, +1 Con
2nd|+1|+3|+3|+0| Scent, Shake Off, +1 Str, +1 Con
3rd|+2|+3|+3|+1| Natural Cunning, Triumphant Bellow, +1 Str, +1 Con
4th|+3|+4|+4|+1| Growth, Stampede, +1 Str, +1 Con
[/table]
Skill Points 4+Int per level
Class Skills: Climb, Jump, Swim, Knowledge (Dungeon), Intimidate, Listen, Search, Spot.

Proficiencies: The Minotaur is proficient with its own natural weapons, simple and martial weapons. It is not proficient in any armor or shields.

Minotaur Body: The Minotaur loses all other racial bonuses and gains Monstrous Humanoid traits, granting it Darkvision out to 60'. Minotaurs are initially medium sized creatures with a base movement speed of 30', possessing a gore attack that delivers 1d6 + 1.5 times its Str mod in piercing/slashing damage. The Minotaur has natural armor equal to its Con modifier.

Minotaurs speak either Giant or Common as their starting language and gain additional languages for a high intelligence score as normal.

Attribute Bonus: The Minotaur gains +1 to Strength and Constitution with each level in the class, for a total bonus of +4 Str and +4 Con at 4th level.

Headbutt: Starting at first level, the Minotaur can deliver tremendous damage with its horns. When the Minotaur delivers gore damage at the end of a charge, the Minotaur instead deals damage equal to 2d6 damage + 2x its Str mod. This bonus damage increases by 2d6 damage for every size category the Minotaur gains beyond Medium.

In addition, a Minotaur that deals Gore damage can choose to knock a foe 5' away for every 5 points of damage dealt. The overall Headbutt distance is adjusted for every step of difference in size category between the Minotaur and the target, with the Minotaur gaining 5' additional distance for every step larger it is than the target, and 5' less distance if for every step the target is larger than the Minotaur. The bonus damage on charging gore attacks, described above, is added to the total damage for the purposes of determining Headbutt distance.

At 3HD, the Minotaur can knock a target in any direction with gore damage, so long as the target isn't forced to move into the Minotaur's square. Knocking the target any direction but directly away from the Minotaur knocks the target only half as far.

At 6HD, the Minotaur can daze opponents by driving them into a solid object. If an opponent is knocked backwards by a Gore attack but cannot move the full distance due to intervening obstacles, they must make a Fortitude Save (DC 10 + 1/2 Minotaur's HD + Minotaur's Str Bonus + 2 for every 5' the target would have moved if it hadn't hit the obstacle) or be dazed for one round.

Starting at 9HD, the Minotaur may knock a target into the air, with the victim suffering appropriate falling damage if they fall a sufficient height. Targets thrown high enough into the air to take falling damage must make their choice of a tumble check (DC 10 + 1/2 HD + Minotaur's Str Mod) or a Reflex Save (Same DC) or fall prone.

At 12HD, the damage increases by 2d6.

At 15HD, targets headbutted into solid obstacles may be stunned, instead of dazed.

At 18HD, targets are moved back twice as far.

Sudden Charge: Starting at first level, the Minotaur can demonstrate the unpredictable, ferocious charges that make it so feared in the labyrinths and dungeons of myth. The Minotaur gains the ability to charge as a standard action, following a move action. The Minotaur doubles any unused move allowance for the round, otherwise charging more or less as normal, with the standard restrictions (Such as clear line of sight/path to target). The Minotaur must be on solid ground to initiate a charge in this manner, and does not gain the bonus damage listed under Headbutt when charging in this manner.

Further, a Minotaur can ready a charge against an opponent it can see, scuffing its hoof and lowering its horns dangerously, preparing to charge and attack that foe when one of the conditions (named by the Minotaur at the time of the readying) is met. This readying is a full round action, and use of this action does not allow for a 5' step in the same turn.

Starting at 10HD, readying a Sudden Charge does not change the Minotaur's place in the initiative order.

Scent: At second level, the Minotaur gains Scent, as per the monster ability, with a standard range of 30'. A Minotaur that scents an enemy can ready a Sudden Charge even if it cannot see it (For details on how this works, see Sudden Charge, above). The Minotaur must still have line of sight to carry out the charge. Scent is described here:
This extraordinary ability lets a creature detect approaching enemies, sniff out hidden foes, and track by sense of smell.

A creature with the scent ability can detect opponents by sense of smell, generally within 30 feet. If the opponent is upwind, the range is 60 feet. If it is downwind, the range is 15 feet. Strong scents, such as smoke or rotting garbage, can be detected at twice the ranges noted above. Overpowering scents, such as skunk musk or troglodyte stench, can be detected at three times these ranges.

The creature detects another creature’s presence but not its specific location. Noting the direction of the scent is a move action. If it moves within 5 feet of the scent’s source, the creature can pinpoint that source.

A creature with the Track feat and the scent ability can follow tracks by smell, making a Wisdom check to find or follow a track. The typical DC for a fresh trail is 10. The DC increases or decreases depending on how strong the quarry’s odor is, the number of creatures, and the age of the trail. For each hour that the trail is cold, the DC increases by 2. The ability otherwise follows the rules for the Track feat. Creatures tracking by scent ignore the effects of surface conditions and poor visibility.

Creatures with the scent ability can identify familiar odors just as humans do familiar sights.

Water, particularly running water, ruins a trail for air-breathing creatures. Water-breathing creatures that have the scent ability, however, can use it in the water easily.

False, powerful odors can easily mask other scents. The presence of such an odor completely spoils the ability to properly detect or identify creatures, and the base Survival DC to track becomes 20 rather than 10.

Shake Off: Starting at second level, the Minotaur can combine the strength and power of a bucking bull with the leverage of humanoid form to dislodge opponents that are encroaching upon the Minotaur's space and send them flying. Shake Off is a standard action that delays its effect until the start of the Minotaur's next turn. When Shake Off triggers, the Minotaur deals gore damage (albeit bludgeoning, not piercing) to each creature within the Minotaur's reach. This damage can trigger the knockback effect described under Headbutt, above. Opponents who are sharing a space with the Minotaur, grappling the minotaur and/or being grappled by the Minotaur take standard damage & have the grapple broken if they are knocked away. Shake Off deals full damage to swarms, thrashing and scattering them beyond their ability to gather back together.

For a Minotaur that has a reach of 10' or more, the knockback effect described under Headbutt is doubled for creatures within 5' and creatures sharing a space with the Minotaur, effectively knocking opponents 10' away for every 5 points of damage dealt.

Finally, the Minotaur knocks opponents 5' in the direction of its choice (except into the Minotaur's space) whenever it deals attack of opportunity damage. This increases by 5' for every size category the Minotaur grows beyond Medium.

Natural Cunning: Though it isn't necessarily the most intelligent or wise creature, a third level Minotaur begins to display the unusual cunning, perception and logical abilities that set it apart from other savage brutes. The Minotaur may pick two mental attributes (Int, Wis or Cha). Thereafter, the Minotaur may use the higher of the two attributes for the purposes of determining stat based rolls, skill bonuses, skill points per level, saving throws, spell or SLA effects and bonus spells, instead of the inferior attribute. If one of the chosen attributes was Intelligence, and the other attribute value is higher, the Minotaur may retroactively adjust its total skill points to reflect the higher value, as the third level of the class is taken.

Natural Cunning grants the Minotaur gains several abilities that ensure the creature always knows where it is going: The Minotaur gains the track feat, it always knows which way is north (failing that, the Minotaur can gauge the distance between the Minotaur itself and any fixed point the creature has previously defined), it always knows which paths it has taken before, it can't get lost and it becomes immune to the Maze spell.

Triumphant Bellow: Starting at third level, a Minotaur can let loose with a hearty bellow that can grant the courage or momentum needed to sway the tide of a battle. Triumphant Bellow is a standard action that grants the Minotaur an additional 5' base move speed and +2 Str for a number of rounds equal to the Minotaur's Charisma modifier.

This ability offers additional benefits, depending on the current state of the battle. For every fallen (prone, unconscious, dying, dead, petrified or otherwise terminated) foe within 30' of the Minotaur, the Bellow grants an additional 5' move speed and +2 Str, to a maximum of +15' move speed and +10 bonus Str. Foes with too low a CR to grant experience to the Minotaur and foes that have already granted experience (such as those from a previous encounter) do not count for the purposes of the Bellow's bonus.

For each fallen (prone, unconscious, dying, dead, petrified, or otherwise terminated) ally within the 30' radius, the Minotaur gains +1 to saving throws, a +10% chance to stabilize and 1d6 + Cha mod healing each round for the bellow's duration. Allies that are not 'fallen' as a direct consequence of enemy action (such as an ally that lies down & is thus prone voluntarily) do not count for the purposes of this effect.

Allies within the 30' radius gain half the benefit that the Minotaur gains, rounding down.

Growth: A fourth level Minotaur grows to Large size. Its reach, grapple modifiers, natural attack damage and skills change accordingly, but it doesn't gain any ability score bonuses or penalties.

At 13HD, the Minotaur grows another size category.

Stampede: At fourth level, a Minotaur may charge through enemy ranks, sending opponents flying as it charges one foe after another. The Minotaur may, provided that it has sufficient movement remaining, declare a second (or third, fourth, etc.) charge in a round, hereafter referred to as the 'Stampede'. Use of Stampede allows for a fresh use of the Minotaur's melee attack with each resulting charge.

Each new charge must have a valid target (ie. clear line of sight, at least 10' away), each Stampede imposes a cumulative -2 penalty on attacks for the round, and imposes a -1 penalty to AC rather than the standard -2 for a charge. Stampede provokes an attack of opportunity as the additional charge is declared, with the attack of opportunity interrupting the ability if it connects. For this reason, most Minotaurs will use Stampede in conjunction with Gore & Headbutt.

Comments
Ok, so Minotaur = charge based combatant. That much is a given. Thing is, I wanted to be original, which meant breaking away from the Dungeon Crasher + Lance tropes that tend to define the role. So what you've got is a brute that can charge around corners and control where enemies are on the battlefield, which in turn allows for more charges. Especially with Stampede, it's more quantity of charges than quality (though it's certainly not hurting for quality, with the bonus damage on charges).

You'll note that the Minotaur features a very aggressive slant. Where other melee brutes I've created tend to have abilities that make them good at saves or ameliorate the effects of poor saves, and otherwise set up the monster in a way that overrides some of the failings of melee at high levels, the Minotaur relies more on getting that brutally damaging charge in, and Sudden Charge makes that possible. You've got Headbutt to make distance between you and foes to allow for further charges, and Shake Off (anyone get the reference?) if you really want enemies to get away from you, one way or another.

So ultimately, it's a great aggressive melee battlefield controller that will make its presence clear.

Admission: I put together this entire monster, including finding & cropping the pic, using my iTouch (Kind of like an iPhone, but minus the phone, speaker, camera). This made it very tedious, and as a consequence, there's a few things I know I want to fix (like clarification of grappling in Shake Off) but haven't bothered to just yet, and I also admit I can't get a good view of the whole monster, being only able to have 2 lines of text on my screen at the same time. As such, it's less polished than my other work, right out the gate. I'll get back to it after to tidy up where needed.

Changelog
Feb 03, 2011 Changes:
Adjusted Shake Off, removing the double damage for creatures sharing a space with the Minotaur, but adding a clarification on what happens to those grappling with the Minotaur (they are thrown off).
Some wording changes in Natural Cunning, for clarity.
Clarification that allies get some of the additional benefits for Triumphant Bellow.
Clarification of wording under Stampede.

Feb 06, 2011 Changes:
Clarified the effect of size on headbutt distance.
Chance to daze when knocking enemies into obstacles is increased, based on how far they would've moved before they hit something.
Clarified that Natural Cunning stat merge (for lack of a better term) uses the better attribute, instead of the inferior attribute, where appropriate.
Clarified Triumphant Bellow, tidying it up quite a bit. Moved the mention of allies to the end, with a simple "allies within 30' of you get half the benefit you do" instead of constantly mentioning the half effect on allies.
Triumphant Bellow stabilize chance boosted to 10% (so allies get +5%, while the 10% probably isn't ever going to be used by the minotaur, f'real).
Clarified the 'fallen' bit as much as I was able, given how many interpretations of the term there are.

Mystic Muse
2011-02-03, 01:50 AM
The first time you mention the benefits of "Triumphant bellow" it looks like you change your base speed to five feet, not you gain an additional 5 feet of speed.

Other than that, I don't really know what to say. It looks good to me and I'd certainly play one.

EDIT: In the "Finished monsters" spoiler could you put the true dragons spoiler at the top? It's a pain scrolling down to get to those.

Gorgondantess
2011-02-03, 01:51 AM
It occurs to me that chatting is a much more efficient modus of critiquing than posting. As such, I've updated my user profile with my various chumhandles. Go ahead and add me as a friend, and whenever I'm on go ahead and pester me about critiquing your works, and I shall most certainly do so.
Note that I'm pretty much never on skype.

Hyudra
2011-02-03, 01:55 AM
Changed, Kyuub, thanks.

Mystic Muse
2011-02-03, 03:21 AM
Does anybody recall if Magicypop called the elder evils or an elder evil?

Gorgondantess
2011-02-03, 03:24 AM
Does anybody recall if Magicypop called the elder evils or an elder evil?

So not touching that one with a 49.5' pole.

Mystic Muse
2011-02-03, 03:25 AM
So not touching that one with a 49.5' pole.

I'll take that as a "Play it safe, don't do any of them, AND FINISH UP YOUR OTHER MONSTERS ALREADY!"

Gorgondantess
2011-02-03, 03:32 AM
I'll take that as a "Play it safe, don't do any of them, AND FINISH UP YOUR OTHER MONSTERS ALREADY!"

Very astute.

Hyudra
2011-02-03, 10:30 AM
On the subject of Magicyop: I'm wanting to hear input from others in terms of the 'issue' of absentee homebrewers. If someone disappears on us, leaving stuff unfinished, what's our modus operandi?

I'd like something set in stone, so that posters who are lurking but can't quite bring themselves to return and get caught up (By circumstance or in terms of motivation) know if their work is close to being co-opted. I remember taking a break, thinking I had finished up and posted the updated Purple Worm, only to see a message where someone was thinking aloud about taking over & finishing it. That bugged me.

So... would there be any disagreement if I updated one of the first posts in the thread with:

Abandoned Monsters:

It is the nature of the forums that people will come and go, and that some people will be unable to finish what they have started. To keep this unfinished content from cluttering up the lists, we are enforcing a loose restriction where any content put together by a poster who does not update their unfinished monsters (those not added to the master list) or respond in the thread for a month's time is deemed 'abandoned'.

Abandoned monsters can be picked up by another active, unburdened poster. We stress active, as an abandoned monster that is adopted by a poster who only posts once every two weeks is going to lead to the same issue of clutter and an extended 'unfinished monster' list. For unburdened posters, we refer to those who do not already have a plethora of monsters who have been started or are only midway through development. The process for adopting a monster starts with a good faith effort to contact the poster that started the monster, followed by bringing the abandonment to the Council's attention. If there is no reply and the council gives the go-ahead, then you may officially adopt the monster or content in question.

Once a monster has been adopted, it may be changed in any way that the adopter sees fit, or even started anew. This is partially to discourage those who would get monsters to the point of being nearly complete, then abandon the monster, leaving others to do the dirty, detailed and sometimes uninteresting work of polishing it (correcting spelling, format, rephrasing, clarifying, minor number changes).

The Tygre
2011-02-03, 11:07 AM
Is there a chance I could make a request for something along the ophidian nature? I was thinking nagas, core or Rokugani, brewer's choice. Or heck, just making sure Medusa and the Yuan-ti are up to code. I know Medusae at least were some of Oslecamo's first monsters.

mrcarter11
2011-02-03, 11:30 AM
Well, the balor, slaad etc. are outsiders. Thus, they get outsider traits. Outsider traits includes, whaddya know, outsider type. And vice versa.
Balor does indeed gain a subtype. Just at level 2. It's just that... subtypes are so minor, we haven't bothered with a strict consistency. You have no idea how hard it is to just attempt to keep everything within the same stone's throw of balance, let alone keeping minor stuff like that internally consistent.
Satisfactory answer?

Yes it is.. Very much so. I was simply asking in realation to the "Fiend of" PrC's. Thanks for the quick reply.

Hyudra
2011-02-03, 12:54 PM
Is there a chance I could make a request for something along the ophidian nature? I was thinking nagas, core or Rokugani, brewer's choice. Or heck, just making sure Medusa and the Yuan-ti are up to code. I know Medusae at least were some of Oslecamo's first monsters.

If I continue my trend of updating old, 'core' monsters, Medusa would be soon to come on the list.

No monsters that really truly intrigue me, otherwise, at this point. Chimera is kind of a dead end (and if someone else wants to jump on it, feel free), so I'll be focusing more on making changes to Basilisk, Storm Giant, Troll and Minotaur in the near future, while considering ideas for Medusa and the like.

Megawizard
2011-02-03, 01:26 PM
Original monster classeshere (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=9557.0).

Kobold-Bard
2011-02-03, 01:28 PM
So I found myself trying to do one of those, and I wonder if I could post it here.

Do I need to sign up or ask permission or anything? I promise to don't abandon my monster untill it's to your standards!

No permission needed to post, feel free to post a monster & critique to your heart's content. You just need to please Hyudra & Gorgon to get it added to the list.

On that note: I'll modify the Quasi-God tonight.

Megawizard
2011-02-03, 01:35 PM
NightWalker
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/MM35_gallery/MM35_PG196.jpg

HD:d12
{table]Level| Bab| Fort| Ref| Will| Feature
1| +0 |+0|+0|+2| Darkness Body, Daylight Aversion, Chilling Blow, +1 Str
2| +1 |+0|+0|+3| Darkness Skin, +1 Str
3| +1|+ 1| +1|+3|Creeping Shadow, +1 Str
4| +2|+ 1| +1|+4| Evil Gaze, +1 Cha, +1 Str
5| +2|+ 1| +1|+4| Stalking Shadow,+1 Str
6| +3|+ 2| +2|+5|Growth, Sudden Darkness, +1 Str
7| +3|+ 2| +2|+5| Consuming Shadow, +1 Str
8| +4|+ 2| +2|+6| Summon Darkness, +1 Cha, +1 Str
9| +4|+ 3| +3|+6| Overwhelming Shadow, Nightmare,+1 Str
10| +5|+3| +3|+7|Desecrating Aura, +1 Str
11| +5|+ 3| +3|+7|Master Shadow, +1 Cha,+1 Str
12| +6|+ 4| +4|+8|Growth, Darkness Fist, +1 Str
13| +6|+ 4| +4|+8|Crushing Shadow, +1 Cha, +1 Str
14| +7|+ 4| +5|+9| Crush, +1 Str
15| +7|+ 5| +5|+9| Unstopable shadow, +1 Cha, +1 Str
16| +8|+ 5| +5|+10|Eclipse, +1 Str, +1 Cha
[/table]
Skills:2+int modifier per level, quadruple at firt level, No class skills.

Proficiencies:The Nightwalker is proficient only with its own natural weapons
Features:

Nightwalker Body: a NightWalker loses all other racial modifiers and gains the following undead traits
* No Constitution score.
* Darkvision out to 60 feet.
* Immunity to all mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects).
* Immunity to poison, sleep effects, paralysis, stunning, disease, and death effects.
* Not subject to critical hits, nonlethal damage, ability drain, or energy drain. Immune to damage to its physical ability scores (Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution), as well as to fatigue and exhaustion effects.
* Heals naturaly.
* Immunity to any effect that requires a Fortitude save (unless the effect also works on objects or is harmless).
* Uses its Charisma modifier for Concentration checks.
* Not at risk of death from massive damage, but when reduced to 0 hit points or less, it is immediately destroyed.
* Not affected by raise dead and reincarnate spells or abilities. Resurrection and true resurrection can affect undead creatures. These spells turn undead creatures back into the living creatures they were before becoming undead.

* Undead do not breathe, eat, or sleep.

The NightWalker is a medium sized undead with two natural slam attacks dealing 1d6+Str modifier damage each and base speed 40 feet. The NightWalker takes no penalty for attacking with both claws at the same time. Any class levels the NightWalker takes have their HD increased to d12.

In addition, a NightWalker gains a Natural armor bonus equal to it's Charisma modifier.

NightWalkers cannot speak, but they have telepathy out to 20', with an additional 5 feet per HD

Daylight Aversion: If exposed to natural daylight (not merely a daylight spell), a NightWalker take a -4 penalty on all attack rolls, saving throws, and skill checks. The nightwalker can avoid this penalty by wearing a cloak or some other sort of heavy cloaking.

In return, a Nightwalker gains +1 to attack rollls, saving throws and skill checks while in an area of darkness. This bonus increases by 1 for every 5 HD of the Nightwalker.

Chilling Blow:The NightWalker may temporarily paralyze parts of an oponent's body, or force them to drop what they're carrying Whenever the NightShade hits an opponent with one of their slam attacks, they may choose to deal half damage and prevent the oponent from using one of his natural weapons for 1 round (NightWalker's choice), or perform a disarm atempt as a free action.

Darkness Skin:At 2nd level, the NightWalker gains DR/Silver and a bonus on Hide and Move Silently checks equal to half their HD, plus resistance to cold equal to their full HD.

At 6th level it improves to DR/Silver and magic

Ability Increase: The Nightwalker gains a permanent +1 to Str at all levels and +1 to Cha at levels 4, 8, 11, 13, 15, 16, for a total of +14 Str and +6 Cha at level 16.

Creeping shadow:At third level, the Nightwalker can begin to manipulate light and shadow, gaining the ability to use Deeper Darkness, Invisibility and See Invisibility as SLAs, each 1/day per HD.

The Deeper Darkness SLA of the NightWalker counts as having a level equal to half the NightWalker's HD for purposes of countering/dispelling light spells.

Evil Gaze:. At 4th level, as a standard action, the NightWalker may look directly into an opponent within 30 feet, which must succeed on a DC 10+1/2HD+Cha mod Will save or be paralyzed with fear for 1 round. Whether or not the save is successful, that creature cannot be affected again by the same NightWalker’s gaze for 24 hours.

This is a gaze attack subject to all the normal flaws and drawbacks of this kind of attack, plus that it targets a single creature and needs a standard action to use.

At 8 HD the NightWalker may use this as a move action.

At 12 HD it can affect creatures normally immune to fear, but they gain a +5 bonus on their saves.

At 16 HD this becomes a full power gaze attack, affecting all whitin 30 feet of the NightWalker whitout need of actions.

Stalking Shadow:At 5th level the NightWalker can use Contagion, Haste and Dispel Magic as SLAs, each 1/day for each 2HD. Save DCs are 10+1/2 HD+Cha modifier.

At 10 HD the NightWalker's contagion can affect even creatures immune to disease, but they gain a +5 bonus on their Fortitude saves to resist it.

At 11HD the Dispel Magic upgrades to Greater Dispel Magic.

Growth: At 6th and 12th level of this class the NightWalker grows one size category.

If all levels of the NightWalker were taken, it grows one more size category upon reaching 18 HD.

Sudden Darkness: At 6th level, the Nightwalker can use Deeper Darkness as an immediate action.

Consuming Shadow: At 7th level the NightWalker can use Unholy Blight 1/day per 3 HD, except that it affects creatures of all alignments except evil undead like they were good creatures, and it has no Maximum damage limit.

Against actual creatures of good alignment, it counts them as good outsiders.

Against actual good outsiders, it deals 1d8 damage per caster level.

Summon Darkness:at 8th level the NightWalker can summon forth 1d2 shadows 1/hour as a standard action. They arrive instantly and serve for 1 minute per HD. Undead summoned this way can never spawn other undead.

At 10 HD the NightWalker may summon 1d4 shadows or 1d2 Wraiths instead.

At 12 HD the nightwalker may summon 1d6 shadows, 1d4 Wraiths or 1d2 Greater shadows instead.

At 14 HD the nightwalker may summon 1d8 shadows, 1d6 Wraiths, 1d4 Greater shadows or 1d2 Dread Wraiths

At 16 HD the summoned Undead can deal half ability damage/drain to oponents normally immune to it.

Overwhelming shadow:At 9th level the NightWalker can use Cone of Cold as a SLA 1/day for every 4 HD it has, except that it has no Maximum damage, and oponents are entangled for 1 round per HD if they fail their saves, or for 1 round if they suceed on their saves.

Nightmare: at 9th level the NightWalker can fly with poor maneuverability at half its land speed, and gains SR equal to 11+HD.

Desecrating Aura: At 10th level a NightWalker gives off a 20-foot radius emanation of utter desecration, imbuing their surroundings with negative energy. This ability works much like a desecrate spell, except that the nightshade’s evil is so great that it is treated as the shrine of an evil power. All undead within 20 feet of the nightshade (including the creature itself) gain a +2 profane bonus on attack rolls, damage rolls, and saving throws, and +2 hit points per HD. Charisma checks made to turn undead within this area take a -6 penalty.

A nightwalker's desecrating aura cannot be dispelled, but its suppressed if a nightwalker enters a consecrated or hallowed area, altough the nightwalker's presence also suppresses the consecrated or hallowed effect for as long as it remains in the area.

Master shadow:At 11th level the NightWalker can use Confusion and Hold Monster as SLAs 1/day for every 4 HD it has. Save DCs are 10+1/2 HD+Cha modifier.

Darkness Fist: at 12th level, whenever the NightWalker hits an opponent with its slam attack, it may spend one of his Deeper Darkness as a free action on that opponent to cover his eyes with pitch black, making it become blind for 10 min per HD. A reflex save with DC 10+1/2HD+Str mod prevents the blindness.

Crushing shadow:At 13th level the NightWalker can use Planeshift and Shadow Walk as SLAs 1/day for every 5 HD. Save DCs are 10+1/2HD+Cha mod.

Crush:At 14th level a NightWalker can destroy any weapon or item at least one size category smaller than itself (even magic ones, but not artifacts) by picking it up and crushing it between its hands. The nightwalker must make a successful disarm attempt to grab an item held by an opponent. The item is entitled to a DC 10+1/2HD+Str modifier Fortitude save to resist destruction.

If it fails, it's crushed into fine diamond powder worth the same amount as the destroyed item.

This also allows the NightWalker's to automatically destroy lasting magical effects (even ones such as a Wall of Force) by hitting them with his Slam attack and spending one of his Greater Dispel Magic uses.

Unstopable shadow: At 15h level the NightWalker can use Finger of Death as a SLA 1/day for every 6 HD it has, except that it also affects creatures immune to Death effects, including other undead, which are reduced to dust. Those creatures gain +5 on their saves to resist this however. Save DC is 10+1/2 HD+Cha mod.

Eclipse:At 16th level, 1/day as a standard action, the NightWalker can block the very Sun (or whatever main source of light illuminates the current plane it is on) on top of smoothering all other light sources by covering them with pitch black. Mundane fires, lanterns and the like grow dark (but aren't actually put out) and even magic sources of of light are suppressed unless they're from artifacts. This means the NightWalker and other creatures that are normally vulnerable to daylight take no penalty for the duration of the eclipse, wich lasts 10 minutes per HD.

Spells with the light descriptor of 8th level or lower are automatically countered/dispelled on a radius of 1 mile per HD centered on the NightWalker during the duration of the Eclipse.

Finally, during the Eclipse, all the bonus from the Desecrating Aura becomes equal to the Nightwalker's HD/2, its area increases to a radius of 5 feet per HD, and the penalty to turning increases to -10.



Comments:

In Soviet Russia, the Darkness attacks you!

Ahem, the Nightwalker is a shaddow-focused undead, altough it itself is corporeal, and instead of ability damage/drain it focuses on breaking stuff up.

At first level you've got a disarmer/sunderer that's also usefull against weaponless oponents. As the NightWalker grows it unlocks DR, some skill bonuses, a wide variety of SLAs focusing on stealth and debuffing/disabling, size increases, minions, flight, SR and some other goodies, making for a quite versatile monster. I buffed some of the more limited SLAs to give it some extra punch.

The signature ability, Crush can also be used to break down Walls of Force and the like, and I gave it Shaddow walk because it seems to fit.

As a capstone you can literally cover the land in darkness for some hours, allowing you and your minions to spread terror unchecked by pesky daylight.

Lix Lorn
2011-02-03, 01:39 PM
Just for proofreading, shadow is spelt with one 'd', you type NightShade instead of NightWalker a few times, type NighWalker a couple of times, and personally I'd really prefer it if it was Nightwalker.

As for balance, I'm not good enough to judge.

Edit: Oh, and useful in the comments has just one l.

Megawizard
2011-02-03, 01:45 PM
Original monster classeshere (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=9557.0).

Lix Lorn
2011-02-03, 01:49 PM
I probably wouldn't, but that's not the fault of the class. :)

Kobold-Bard
2011-02-03, 01:54 PM
NightWalker
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/MM35_gallery/MM35_PG196.jpg

HD:d12
{table]Level| Bab| Fort| Ref| Will| Feature
1| +0 |+0|+0|+2| Darkness Body, Daylight Aversion, Chilling Blow
2| +1 |+0|+0|+3| Darkness Skin, +1 Str
3| +1|+ 1| +1|+3|Creeping Shadow, Telepathy
4| +2|+ 1| +1|+4| Evil Gaze, +1 Cha
5| +2|+ 1| +1|+4| Stalking Shadow
6| +3|+ 2| +2|+5|Growth
7| +3|+ 2| +2|+5| Consuming Shadow, +1 Str
8| +4|+ 2| +2|+6| Summon Darkness, +1 Cha
9| +4|+ 3| +3|+6| Overwhelming Shadow, Nightmare
10| +5|+3| +3|+7|Desecrating Aura, +1 Str
11| +5|+ 3| +3|+7|Master Shadow, +1 Cha
12| +6|+ 4| +4|+8|Growth, +1 Str
13| +6|+ 4| +4|+8|Crushing Shadow, +1 Cha
14| +7|+ 4| +5|+9| Crush, +1 Str
15| +7|+ 5| +5|+9| Unstopable shadow, +1 Cha
16| +8|+ 5| +5|+10|Eclipse, +1 Str, +1 Cha
[/table]
Skills:2+int modifier per level, quadruple at first level, No class skills.

Proficiencies:It's own natural weapons.

Features:

Darkness Body: a NightWalker loses all other racial modifiers and gains the following undead traits
* No Constitution score.
* Darkvision out to 60 feet.
* Immunity to all mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects).
* Immunity to poison, sleep effects, paralysis, stunning, disease, and death effects.
* Not subject to critical hits, nonlethal damage, ability drain, or energy drain. Immune to damage to its physical ability scores (Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution), as well as to fatigue and exhaustion effects.
* Heals naturaly.
* Immunity to any effect that requires a Fortitude save (unless the effect also works on objects or is harmless).
* Uses its Charisma modifier for Concentration checks.
* Not at risk of death from massive damage, but when reduced to 0 hit points or less, it is immediately destroyed.
* Not affected by raise dead and reincarnate spells or abilities. Resurrection and true resurrection can affect undead creatures. These spells turn undead creatures back into the living creatures they were before becoming undead.

* Undead do not breathe, eat, or sleep.

The NightWalker is a medium sized undead with two natural slam attacks dealing 1d6 damage each and base speed 40 feet. The NightWalker takes no penalty for attacking with both claws at the same time. Any class levels the NightWalker takes have their HD increased to d12.

In addition, a NightWalker gains a Nat armor bonus equal to it's Cha.

NightWalkers cannot speak, but they have telepathy of 20 feet plus 5 feet per HD.

Daylight Aversion: If exposed to natural daylight (not merely a daylight spell), a NightWalker take a -4 penalty on all attack rolls, saving throws, and skill checks.

A lot of time will usually be spent in daylight. If this has to stay at all maybe for 2-4 rolls/HD each day can avoid this penalty as the Nightwalker steels itself against the light. Also make the penalty reduce by 1/4HD so it's gone by the end of the class.

Chilling Blow:A NightWalker gains the Improved Sunder and Improved disarm feats even if it doesn't meet the pre-requisites. In adition, the NightWalker may temporaly paralyze parts of an oponent's body. Whenever the NightShade hits an oponent with one of their slam attacks, they may choose to deal half damage and prevent the oponent from using one of his natural weapons for 1 round (NightWalker's choice).

Make it so it can also chose to reduce their speed instead by grabbing a leg/wing/etc.

Darkness Skin:At 2nd level, the NightWalker gains DR/Silver and a bonus on Hide and Move Silently checks equal to half their HD, plus resistance against cold equal to their full HD.

At 6th level it improves to DR/Silver and magic

Ability Increase: A nightwalker gains a permanent

+1 to Str at levels 2, 7, 10, 12, 14, 16
+1 to Cha at levels 4, 8, 11, 13, 15, 16

For a total of +6 Str and +6 Cha at level 16.

Creeping shadow:At 3rd level, the NightWalker can use Deeper Darkness, Invisibility and See Invisibility as SLAs, each 1/day per HD.

The Deeper Darkness SLA of the NightWalker counts as having a level equal to half the NightWalker's HD for purposes of countering/dispelling light spells.

Evil Gaze:. At 4th level, as a standard action, the NightWalker may look directly into an oponent whitin 30 feet, wich must succeed on a DC 10+1/2HD+Cha mod Will save or be paralyzed with fear for 1d8 rounds. Whether or not the save is successful, that creature cannot be affected again by the same NightWalker’s gaze for 24 hours.

Why 1d8? That sounds like potentially a long time for something that can be used at will.

At 7 HD the NightWalker may use this as a move action.

At 10HD the NightWalker may use this as a swift action.

At 13 HD it can affect creatures normally immune to fear, but they gain a +5 bonus on their saves.

At 16 HD this becomes a gaze attack, affecting all whitin 30 feet of the NightWalker whitout need of actions.

Stalking shadow:At 5th level the NightWalker can use Contagion, Haste and Dispel Magic as SLAs, each 1/day for each 2HD. Save DCs are 10+1/2 HD+Cha modifier.

At 11HD the Dispel Magic upgrades to Greater Dispel Magic.

Growth: At 6th and 12th level of this class the NightWalker grows one size category.

If all levels of the NightWalker were taken, it grows one more size category upon reaching 18 HD.

Consuming shadow: At 7th level the NightWalker can use Unholy Blight 1/day per 3 HD, except that it affects creatures of all alignments except evil undeads, and it has no Maximum damage limit.

Summon Darkness:at 8th level the NightWalker can summon forth 1d2 shadows 1/day as a standard action. They arrive instantly and serve for 1 minute per HD.

At 10 HD the NightWalker may summon 1d4 shadows or 1d2 Wraiths instead.

At 12 HD the nightwalker may summon 1d6 shadows, 1d4 Wraiths or 1d2 Greater shadows instead.

At 14 HD the nightwalker may summon 1d8 shadows, 1d6 Wraiths, 1d4 Greater shadows or 1d2 Dread Wraiths

At 16 HD the summoned Undead can deal half ability damage/drain to oponents normally immune to it.

Overwhelming shadow:At 9th level the NightWalker can use Cone of Cold as a SLA 1/day for every 4 HD it has, except that it has no Maximum damage, and oponents are entangled for 1 round per HD if they fail their saves, or for 1 round if they suceed on their saves.

Nightmare: at 9th level the NightWalker can fly with poor maneuverability at half it's land speed, and gains SR equal to 11+HD.

Desecrating Aura: At 10th level a NightWalker gives off a 20-foot radius emanation of utter desecration, imbuing their surroundings with negative energy. This ability works much like a desecrate spell, except that the nightshade’s evil is so great that it is treated as the shrine of an evil power. All undead within 20 feet of the nightshade (including the creature itself) gain a +2 profane bonus on attack rolls, damage rolls, and saving throws, and +2 hit points per HD. Charisma checks made to turn undead within this area take a -6 penalty.

A nightwalker's desecrating aura cannot be dispelled except by a dispel evil spell or similar effect. If the effect is dispelled, the nightwalker can resume it as a free action on its next turn. Its desecrating aura is suppressed if a nightwalker enters a consecrated or hallowed area, but the nightshade’s presence also suppresses the consecrated or hallowed effect for as long as it remains in the area.

Master shadow:At 11th level the NightWalker can use Confusion and Hold Monster as SLAs 1/day for every 4 HD it has. Save DCs are 10+1/2 HD+Cha modifier.

Crushing shadow:At 13th level the NightWalker can use Planeshift and shadow Walk as SLAs 1/day for every 5 HD. Save DCs are 10+1/2HD+Cha mod.

Crush:At 14th level a NightWalker can destroy any weapon or item at least one size category smaller than itself (even magic ones, but not artifacts) by picking it up and crushing it between its hands. The nightwalker must make a successful disarm attempt to grab an item held by an opponent. The item is entitled to a DC 10+1/2HD+Str modifier Fortitude save to resist destruction.

This also allows the NightWalker's to automatically destroy lasting magical effects (even ones such as a Wall of Force) by hiting them with his Slam attack and spending one of his Greater Dispel Magic uses.

Unstopable shadow: At 15hd level the NightWalker can use Finger of Death as a SLA 1/day for every 6 HD it has, except that it also affects creatures immune to Death effects, including other undead, wich are reduced to dust. Those creatures gain +5 on their saves to resist this however. Save DC is 10+1/2 HD+Cha mod.

Eclipse:At 16th level, 1/day as a standard action, the NightWalker can block the very Sun (or whatever main source of light illuminates the current plane it is on) on top of smoothering all other light sources by covering them with pitch black. Mundane fires, lanterns and the like grow dark (but aren't actually put out) and even magic sources of of light are supressed unless they're from artifacts. This means the NightWalker and other creatures that are normally vulnerable to daylight take no penalty for the duration of the eclipse, wich lasts 10 minutes per HD.

Spells with the light descriptor of 8th level or lower are automatically countered/dispelled on a radius of 1 mile per HD centered on the NightWalker during the duration of the Eclipse.

Finally, during the Eclipse, all the bonus from the Desecrating Aura becomes equal to the Nightwalker's HD/4, its area increases to a radius of 5 feet per HD, and the penalty to turning increases to -10.



Comments:

In Soviet Russia, the Darkness attacks you! :smalltongue:

Ahem, the Nightwalker is a shadow-focused undead, altough it itself is corporeal, and instead of ability damage/drain it focuses on breaking stuff up.

At first level you've got a disarmer/sunderer that's also useful against weaponless oponents. As the NightWalker grows it unlocks DR, some skill bonuses, a wide variety of SLAs focusing on stealth and debuffing/disabling, size increases, minions, flight, SR and some other goodies, making for a quite versatile monster. I buffed some of the more limited SLAs to give it some extra punch.

The signature ability, Crush can also be used to break down Walls of Force and the like, and I gave it shadow walk because it seems to fit.

As a capstone you can literally cover the land in darkness for some hours, allowing you and your minions to spread terror unchecked by pesky daylight.


My meagre contributions, do note that I have been proven to not know what I am talking about in the past, so feel free to ignore me.

Megawizard
2011-02-03, 02:05 PM
Original monster classes here (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=9557.0).

Zemro
2011-02-03, 02:30 PM
Thorn:
Stagger out the weapon enhancement bonus & weapon special abilities. Also... what about, y'know, every other round other than their charisma or wisdom mod? Maybe make it permanent at level 4? Or even just waiting until level 4 to bring up the enhancement bonus at all, in that case.

Alright, staggering out the weapon bonuses seems like a decent idea, I'll go and set that up. I did noticed that there was some additional wording missing from the ability, it should've been noted that it was ability mod rounds per encounter. This may remedy your problems on that point, maybe not. I did, however, finally decide to move the ability itself to fourth level.

I don't think I'll make it every other round, that's a bit too uncontrolled for my tastes. Sure, you know exactly when you'll benefit from it, but it seems all to easy for a bit of bad luck having you only able to make use of your attacks on the rounds you're not getting the bonus. With the ability to turn it off and on (and a decent ability modifier) there should be plenty of usage for it for your average encounter. Not a fan of permanent either, and others have also expressed concerns against a constant function as well. It just doesn't seem right to hand out the ability to make all your weapons awesome all the time on top of everything else. True, it'd be a four level investment, but it's an investment that comes with other perks as well.


Not TOO much of a problem, but the ranged under weapon of barbs is flat out better than melee.

I'll look into that and see what I can do, I had actually thought the ability was better then it was until I read it just recently. I'll look into it later tonight as I don't have the time to do so currently.

Kobold-Bard
2011-02-03, 02:32 PM
Section 31 does not exist

Mystic Muse
2011-02-03, 02:36 PM
Illurien is kind of a dead end for me at this point. If somebody else wants to pick it up, feel free, but it's not going anywhere with me as the homebrewer.

Hyudra
2011-02-03, 03:40 PM
NightWalker

Ok, let it be said, in the first posts of this thread, there's quite a few statements to the extent of: "If you're a first time monster class creator, start with something small. Being a novice monster classer with a fifteen level class makes for an aggravating and drawn out process for all involved." Be prepared for a lot of revisions and reworking in the coming hours and days. I'm not going to hold back.
Base stats:
Why D12 HD? From BAB and saves, I'd interpret the creature as more of a caster.
Edit: n/m. It's undead.
You give a lot of Str bonuses for a creature that has wizard BAB.
At a glance, there's a few dead levels, or levels that are nearly dead, with only 1 ability that offers only a passive bonus.
Good @ the 'no class skills' bit, being undead.
Under proficiencies, you want its, not it's. Also, make it a complete sentence. 'The Nightwalker is proficient only with its own natural weapons.'
Rename 'Darkness Body' to 'Nightwalker Body'. There's a lot of creaures defined by darkness, and we don't want overlap between (just for example) the Nightwalker and the Shadow, in the event of gestalt and whatnot.
Does the Nightwalker get .5x, 1x, 1.5x or 2x Str mod to damage with its natural weapons?
Base land speed 40' is rather extreme.
'The Nightwalker takes no penalty for attacking with both claws at the same time' - does this need to be said?
'In adition, a NightWalker gains a Nat armor bonus equal to it's Cha.' -> spell it 'addition', don't shorten Natural armor bonus to 'Nat armor bonus', and state that it gets a bonus equal to its Charisma modifier.
'NightWalkers cannot speak, but they have telepathy of 20 feet plus 5 feet per HD.' - reword to "telepathy out to 20', with an additional 5 feet per HD."
Daylight Aversion: If exposed to natural daylight (not merely a daylight spell), a NightWalker take a -4 penalty on all attack rolls, saving throws, and skill checks.
We try to avoid penalties, or give them a benefit in the same breath. This seems rather debilitating for a PC doing regular adventuring.
Chilling Blow:
Spelling errors:
Pre-requisites -> prerequisites.
Adition -> Addition
Temporaly -> Temporarily
Oponent's -> Opponent's
The ability is a bit too one dimensional. What if the campaign features lots of fights against humans with class levels? They don't have natural weapons to 'chill', so you're effectively useless.
Darkness Skin:
resistance against cold -> 'resistance to cold'
Ability Increase:
'A nightwalker -> The Nightwalker.
Don't use a list/table like you did. Write it out in a complete sentence. Look at how other recent monsters (Minotaur, Troll) did it.
Good job @ listing the total benefit. You're doing pretty well at keeping to the standardized format.
Creeping Shadow:
Ok, so Deeper Darkness gives you some leeway as far as the vulnerability to daylight (1 day's duration per level, shadowy illumination = you're safe from daylight, barring a well aimed dispel magic), but it comes two levels too late for convenience's sake. Some flavor text would help sell the monster. ie. "At third level, the Nightwalker can begin to manipulate light and shadow, gaining..."
Evil Gaze:
Spelling errors:
Oponent -> Opponent
Whitin -> Within
Wich -> Which
Duration is too long.
I'd clarify it to make it a ray attack, to avoid confusion with the ability being misinterpreted as a gaze attack. Failing that, clarify that it's a gaze attack and subject to the same flaws & drawbacks of gazes.
This shouldn't ever be a swift action. Just no, not for a save or lose.
This shouldn't really be a free action either.
Stalking Shadow:
Ability name should be fully capitalized (Stalking Shadow instead of Stalking shadow).
Contagion isn't that great for a PC, while it's a decent ability for a monster. Disease takes a while to do the deed, and a PC needs enemies dead now. Consider removing the SLA from the list and giving the Nightwalker another ability that does something similar, but with a little more of an immediate effect.
Growth: 6th and 12th levels are kind of dull, as you only get growth.
Consuming Shadow:
You don't call many undead 'undeads'. It's just 'undead'. One stick, two sticks, three sticks. One fish, two fish, three fish. One undead, two undead, three undead.
I'd give it something to make it retain the anti-alignment schtick, without being useless most of the time.
Summon Darkness:
Ok, so this ability is a touch problematic. For one thing, Shadows have this issue where, by all sane reasoning, they'd take over a campaign world in a matter of months (1 shadow will beat your average campaign world resident, creating more shadows. Rinse, repeat, and you've got a snowball effect where even the 20 CR dragons are being dragged under the tides of shadows and drained. This also creates an issue where, if you're summoning shadows, who are creating more shadows, then you can pretty much wipe out a small town in the 8+ minutes your shadows are active.
Beyond that, incorporeal shadows are liable to trivialize many equivalent level challenges.
At the very least, I'd state that any shadows spawned by your shadows disappear when your shadows' duration runs out.
Better, would be to say summoned shadows can't create shadows.
Funnily enough, Wraiths are less problematic than the shadows are, in general. No particular complaints there.
Nightmare:
It's -> Its.
Desecrating Aura:
I wouldn't make resuming the desecrating aura a free action. If someone uses up an action to get rid of the aura, I'd expect the Nightwalker to use up an action to get it back. Standard action?
Crushing Shadow:
shadow Walk -> Shadow Walk (Capitalization)
Crush:
This isn't conducive to being a PC. PCs want wealth, and destroying magic items is a surefire way to make sure you don't have enough wealth.
Hiting -> Hitting.
Unstopable Shadow:
Should be spelled Unstoppable.
Wich -> Which.
Eclipse:
Supressed -> Suppressed.
Range of the effect? If I'm on the other side of the world, does this affect me?
Seems really underpowered for a capstone ability.

Overall, kind of underwhelming. Tons of SLAs spread out really thin, making for something of a caster/summoner, who can't really cast or summon that much over the course of the day. You get Str bonuses and a chilling attack, but you're not that great in combat (crap BAB). Sort of split between two concepts (caster and melee), but kind of crummy at both... unless you get into the summoning of shadows, which is broken by design (WotC's fault, really) - shadows aren't light vulnerable, oddly enough, so they have free reign, where they'd otherwise be dependent on eclipse to get around... and while summoning shadows is a major thing for the Nightwalker, you only get to do it once a day, with this class.

Megawizard
2011-02-03, 04:42 PM
Ok, let it be said, in the first posts of this thread, there's quite a few statements to the extent of: "If you're a first time monster class creator, start with something small. Being a novice monster classer with a fifteen level class makes for an aggravating and drawn out process for all involved." Be prepared for a lot of revisions and reworking in the coming hours and days. I'm not going to hold back.

I'm more than ready!



Base stats:
Why D12 HD? From BAB and saves, I'd interpret the creature as more of a caster.
Edit: n/m. It's undead.
You give a lot of Str bonuses for a creature that has wizard BAB.

Undeads seem to always have weak Bab around here, but the Nightwalker is partially a melee fighter (disarm people and break their stuff), so I gave it some Str to help.

Plus the original monster has Str as it's highest stat.



At a glance, there's a few dead levels, or levels that are nearly dead, with only 1 ability that offers only a passive bonus.
Good @ the 'no class skills' bit, being undead.
Under proficiencies, you want its, not it's. Also, make it a complete sentence. 'The Nightwalker is proficient only with its own natural weapons.'
Rename 'Darkness Body' to 'Nightwalker Body'. There's a lot of creaures defined by darkness, and we don't want overlap between (just for example) the Nightwalker and the Shadow, in the event of gestalt and whatnot.
Does the Nightwalker get .5x, 1x, 1.5x or 2x Str mod to damage with its natural weapons?

Corrected/clarified all of those.



Base land speed 40' is rather extreme.

It's a melee monster whitout much on the ranged deparment. It needs that speed.



'The Nightwalker takes no penalty for attacking with both claws at the same time' - does this need to be said?

Well, I don't think it hurts.



'In adition, a NightWalker gains a Nat armor bonus equal to it's Cha.' -> spell it 'addition', don't shorten Natural armor bonus to 'Nat armor bonus', and state that it gets a bonus equal to its Charisma modifier.
'NightWalkers cannot speak, but they have telepathy of 20 feet plus 5 feet per HD.' - reword to "telepathy out to 20', with an additional 5 feet per HD."

Corrected.



Daylight Aversion: If exposed to natural daylight (not merely a daylight spell), a NightWalker take a -4 penalty on all attack rolls, saving throws, and skill checks.
We try to avoid penalties, or give them a benefit in the same breath. This seems rather debilitating for a PC doing regular adventuring.

Again, how? Dungeons are dark, and it's not exactly crippling for the party to move at night and rest by day.

Anyway gave the Nightwalker a bonus for being in darkness.



Chilling Blow:
Spelling errors:
Pre-requisites -> prerequisites.
Adition -> Addition
Temporaly -> Temporarily
Oponent's -> Opponent's

Corrected.



The ability is a bit too one dimensional. What if the campaign features lots of fights against humans with class levels? They don't have natural weapons to 'chill', so you're effectively useless.

You did notice the Nightwalker gets Improved Disarm and Improved Sunder at 1st level right? The chilling blow is for oponents which you cannot normally disarm/sunder.



Darkness Skin:
resistance against cold -> 'resistance to cold'
Ability Increase:
'A nightwalker -> The Nightwalker.
Don't use a list/table like you did. Write it out in a complete sentence. Look at how other recent monsters (Minotaur, Troll) did it.
Good job @ listing the total benefit. You're doing pretty well at keeping to the standardized format.
Creeping Shadow:
Ok, so Deeper Darkness gives you some leeway as far as the vulnerability to daylight (1 day's duration per level, shadowy illumination = you're safe from daylight, barring a well aimed dispel magic), but it comes two levels too late for convenience's sake. Some flavor text would help sell the monster. ie. "At third level, the Nightwalker can begin to manipulate light and shadow, gaining..."

Done




Evil Gaze:
Spelling errors:
Oponent -> Opponent
Whitin -> Within
Wich -> Which
Duration is too long.
I'd clarify it to make it a ray attack, to avoid confusion with the ability being misinterpreted as a gaze attack. Failing that, clarify that it's a gaze attack and subject to the same flaws & drawbacks of gazes.
This shouldn't ever be a swift action. Just no, not for a save or lose.
This shouldn't really be a free action either.

Reduced to 1d3 rounds paralyzis. Also it's suposed to be a gaze attack (clarified that), and standard-action gaze has precedent on the original vampire template

Also it only becomes a free action at 16th level (casters are pretty crazy by now), and 1d3 rounds paralyzis isn't exactly auto-lose either, specially because whetever you make or lose the save you can't be affected by it again for 24 hours.



Stalking Shadow:
Ability name should be fully capitalized (Stalking Shadow instead of Stalking shadow).
Contagion isn't that great for a PC, while it's a decent ability for a monster. Disease takes a while to do the deed, and a PC needs enemies dead now. Consider removing the SLA from the list and giving the Nightwalker another ability that does something similar, but with a little more of an immediate effect.

Hmm, Contagion has instant incubation, so it works as a way of dealing ability damage. Added a clause to allow it to bypass disease immunity.



Growth: 6th and 12th levels are kind of dull, as you only get growth.

I would say growth is pretty good by itself, but added a couple new abilities to those levels.



Consuming Shadow:
You don't call many undead 'undeads'. It's just 'undead'. One stick, two sticks, three sticks. One fish, two fish, three fish. One undead, two undead, three undead.
I'd give it something to make it retain the anti-alignment schtick, without being useless most of the time.

Done.



Summon Darkness:
Ok, so this ability is a touch problematic. For one thing, Shadows have this issue where, by all sane reasoning, they'd take over a campaign world in a matter of months (1 shadow will beat your average campaign world resident, creating more shadows. Rinse, repeat, and you've got a snowball effect where even the 20 CR dragons are being dragged under the tides of shadows and drained. This also creates an issue where, if you're summoning shadows, who are creating more shadows, then you can pretty much wipe out a small town in the 8+ minutes your shadows are active.
Beyond that, incorporeal shadows are liable to trivialize many equivalent level challenges.
At the very least, I'd state that any shadows spawned by your shadows disappear when your shadows' duration runs out.
Better, would be to say summoned shadows can't create shadows.
Funnily enough, Wraiths are less problematic than the shadows are, in general. No particular complaints there.

Can't make spawns now, more uses per day, done.



Nightmare:
It's -> Its.
Desecrating Aura:
I wouldn't make resuming the desecrating aura a free action. If someone uses up an action to get rid of the aura, I'd expect the Nightwalker to use up an action to get it back. Standard action?

It's suposed to be a semi-permanent ability. It's not suposed to be easy to get rid off.



Crushing Shadow:
shadow Walk -> Shadow Walk (Capitalization)
Crush:
This isn't conducive to being a PC. PCs want wealth, and destroying magic items is a surefire way to make sure you don't have enough wealth.

Turns crushed items into diamond dust now.



Hiting -> Hitting.
Unstopable Shadow:
Should be spelled Unstoppable.
Wich -> Which.
Eclipse:
Supressed -> Suppressed.
Range of the effect? If I'm on the other side of the world, does this affect me?

Yes. Total eclipse!



Seems really underpowered for a capstone ability.

You noticed it boosts your Desecratment bonus right? Doubled it then. +8 to attacks, saves and skills for you and your minions should be enough I think, plus the coolness of plunging the whole world in darkness.



Overall, kind of underwhelming. Tons of SLAs spread out really thin, making for something of a caster/summoner, who can't really cast or summon that much over the course of the day. You get Str bonuses and a chilling attack, but you're not that great in combat (crap BAB). Sort of split between two concepts (caster and melee), but kind of crummy at both... unless you get into the summoning of shadows, which is broken by design (WotC's fault, really) - shadows aren't light vulnerable, oddly enough, so they have free reign, where they'd otherwise be dependent on eclipse to get around... and while summoning shadows is a major thing for the Nightwalker, you only get to do it once a day, with this class.
Well, both aspects were buffed. More summons, combat bonus while inside darkness, making oponents blinded with your punches, turning oponent's gear in money right on the spot, greater bonus during eclipse, how is it now?

Hyudra
2011-02-03, 05:28 PM
In the future, when you make changes, please list & paraphrase the changes in a changelog, as you can find in most recently posted monster classes. It makes it a lot easier to review & critique the monster.

Zemro
2011-02-03, 05:28 PM
Alright, tweaks to the Thorn class are finished, including a few minor ones.

Additionally, Hyudra, I left some comments on the Troll class on the last page (here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10268747&postcount=243)) and just wanted to make sure tehy weren't missed as I didn't see a response to them.

Hyudra
2011-02-03, 07:40 PM
Basilisk Changes, February 03, 2011:
Tail smash damage lowered by 1d8, but it now just ignores hardness (changed from 'always does at least minimum damage on a successful hit, regardless of hardness').
Added the Abyssal subspecies, giving the Basilisk a bit of Int or Cha, and the ability to speak Infernal or Abyssal
Granite Gaze dazes now (used to stun)
Breaking Lithic Stare's effect now requires a full round action.
A couple of wording changes that don't affect mechanics.
Fixed BAB/Save progression for 5th level
Troll Changes, Feb 03, 2011:
Gnaw bite & bonus damage now penetrate DR.
Excision bonus to saves is halved.
Tumescent recovery is clarified. Added a table elaborating on the healing amount.
Minotaur Changes, Feb 03, 2011:
Adjusted Shake Off, removing the double damage for creatures sharing a space with the Minotaur, but adding a clarification on what happens to those grappling with the Minotaur (they are thrown off).
Some wording changes in Natural Cunning, for clarity.
Clarification that allies get some of the additional benefits for Triumphant Bellow.
Clarification of wording under Stampede.
I did see your recommendations, Zemro. Thank you.

Edit: Basilisk has been added to the list with Gorgondantess' consent.

Hyudra
2011-02-04, 01:35 PM
Ok, so dividing up the monsters on the unfinished list:

Almost Dones
Gibbering Mouther.
Swarmshifter

Needs Critiques or Needs Work
Dwarf Ancestor
Jovoc
Pandorym
Gargoyle
Remorhaz
Ragewalker
Grey Jester (Note: last updated 1-03-11)
Flesh Golem (Note: last updated 1-03-11)
Quasi-God
Cloaker
Bleakborn
Demon, Solamith
Thorn
Lodestone Marauder
Troll
Storm Giant
Skeroloth
Ettercap
Black Dragon
Razor Boar
Vivisector
Locathah
Hellfire Wyrm
Minotaur
Nightwalker

Abandoned
Were Scorpion (Last updated 12-09-10)
Maug (Last updated 12-10-10)
Death Knight (Last updated 12-10-10)
Grell (Last updated 12-12-10)
Yellow Musk Creeper (Last updated 12-13-10)
Living Spell (Last updated 12-14-10)
Animated Object (Last updated 12-16-10)
Demi Lich (Last updated 12-17-10)
Wendigo (Last updated 12-21-10)
Briarvex (Last updated 12-22-10)
Half Elemental (Last updated 12-22-10)
Umber Hulk (Voluntarily abandoned)

Special Cases
Half Golem (Huge, incredibly complex monster that can't be reviewed in 3 sittings, let alone 1.)

Any objections if I move abandoned creatures to a separate list/table, for reference? They're not worth reviewing, given that their posters have gone AWOL or given up on them.

Mystic Muse
2011-02-04, 02:44 PM
Illurien needs to be added to the abandoned list and the Hellfire Wyrm should probably be added to the needs critiqued or needs work list

bladesmith
2011-02-04, 02:48 PM
I don't see anything wrong with moving the abandoned monsters to their own table. However, if you are going to be messing with the tables, would you consider either updating the 'suggestions' section, or just getting rid of it all together? It just seems to be taking up space and/or being confusing, if posters without much time are just checking there to see if anyone has reviewed their monster.

Also, quick thoughts on some monsters!
Gibbering Mouther:
1) In the Gibbering body section, it might be nice to change "and gain another every 4 HD", to "gains an extra bite attack every 4HD". Or something along those lines, just for clarity's sake.
2) Not really important, but you may want to toss in a word with Blood Drain that tells us whether the target is counted as grappled or not.
3) The whole Gibbering thing gets a little interesting past 15th and 20th levels. I know I'm not much for high level gaming, but after it ceases to become mind-affecting, what could give immunity to the Confusion? Since, at 20th level, you don't get a save? Perhaps immunity to Enchantment/Compulsion? Or is it a Sonic effect, that can be blocked by cutting out the sound, or not having ears? Since it automatically affects things, does that mean it bypasses spell resistance too? Just things you might want to consider.
4) Under Ground Manipulation, what does this mean: "This lasts for 1/2HD rounds and the effect continues on the affected creatures if they escape this terrain for 3 rounds."?
5) You've got a misspelled except(exept) in the Engulf Ability.
Otherwise, it looks great! And most of the things I'm bringing up are just clarifications for idiots like me that may not actually need to be typed in.

Thorn:
1) Piercing strikes seems really powerful, but that works out okay, I think. I like the flavor, and it gives a decent incentive to both ranged and melee attacks.
2) I'm a little curious as to whether Weapon of Barbs works with weapons that were already magical. So, say you already have a +1 weapon. Would activating Weapon of Barbs make it a +2 weapon with a +1 equivalent ability? And what about at higher levels, where you already have a +4 brilliant energy weapon, and you are tossing on +5 vorpal? Can the enhancement bonus of a weapon go above +5 with this ability?
Really, though, I found very little to say about this class. It is awesome, and I will be looking for somewhere to play it as soon as I can.

Crafty Cultist
2011-02-04, 02:49 PM
I'd categorize my bleakborn as almost done. I think the class is pretty much done at the moment, unless anyone has critique for it.

Zemro
2011-02-04, 03:37 PM
Any objections if I move abandoned creatures to a separate list/table, for reference? They're not worth reviewing, given that their posters have gone AWOL or given up on them.

None at all, I think it's a pretty good idea in fact.


Thorn:
1) Piercing strikes seems really powerful, but that works out okay, I think. I like the flavor, and it gives a decent incentive to both ranged and melee attacks.

I may have tweaked it too much, but I figured it'd be alright-ish. Essentially they both make it easier for the Thorn to deal with creatures, one by debuffing the opponent, the other by cutting through buffs.

Hopefully it's more appealing, and give a better platform for refining.


2) I'm a little curious as to whether Weapon of Barbs works with weapons that were already magical. So, say you already have a +1 weapon. Would activating Weapon of Barbs make it a +2 weapon with a +1 equivalent ability? And what about at higher levels, where you already have a +4 brilliant energy weapon, and you are tossing on +5 vorpal? Can the enhancement bonus of a weapon go above +5 with this ability?
Really, though, I found very little to say about this class. It is awesome, and I will be looking for somewhere to play it as soon as I can.

My initial thought is that it would overlap, so if a Thorn got his hands on a +4 longsword at 8HD, He'd be making it a +4 Keen Merciful longsword while the ability was active.

It's a very good question though, and I thought I had specified/clarified that interaction somewhere, so I should look into doing that. I'm not really sure, exactly, the best (fairest) way for that to work out, so some input would be appreciated.

bladesmith
2011-02-04, 03:47 PM
My initial thought is that it would overlap, so if a Thorn got his hands on a +4 longsword at 8HD, He'd be making it a +4 Keen Merciful longsword while the ability was active.

It's a very good question though, and I thought I had specified/clarified that interaction somewhere, so I should look into doing that. I'm not really sure, exactly, the best (fairest) way for that to work out, so some input would be appreciated.
That sounds like a good idea. Take the higher of the enhancement bonuses, but let the extra abilities stack. You know, unless its the same extra abilities, in which case it would be kinda silly if they stacked. Like if you just picked up a Keen weapon, and their Weapon of Barbs ability already made it Keen. In which case, they could just change it the next time they leveled.

I could see a really mean GM just changing the availability of weapons, just to screw with that character.:smalltongue:

The Antigamer
2011-02-04, 05:29 PM
Jester hasn't been updated because no one reviewed the changes I made after the first couplee reviews.
Well, that and I'm currently under a massive workload trying to finish a programming project. But, with luck, I'll finally be done with it tonight, and will have no assignments til Monday.

Hyudra
2011-02-04, 06:16 PM
I'm aware of that fact, Antigamer, which is why I included it on the 'needs critiques' list, as opposed to the abandoned list. I just included the reminder because it has been a while, and I wanted to be able to keep track if we did get around to critiquing & there were no updates following.

@Crafty, I think as a matter of general policy, I'll avoid letting people deem if their own work goes on the 'almost done' list, given that we don't have that objectivity with our own creations. In the spirit of such, I've kept my own work off that list.

IIRC, the Bleakborn was chosen as the first (and last?) 'Featured monster' in the last thread, with the idea that we'd all chip in and critique one monster at a time. It was a bad choice, though, as you weren't posting at the time, and thus were unable to take such critiques into account. I recall that there was a fair bit of info offered at the time, though. It may be worth your while to dig through the latter half of the fifth thread to find where that whole discussion came about.

I'll update the lists with creatures posted after the Troll & Lodestone Marauder, after, then edit the separate lists into the front page later, along with some general tidying up of unclear stuff - the badly outdated requested monsters list & I'm thinking I'll post & link to a newer, more accurate template for monster classes.

The Winter King
2011-02-04, 08:31 PM
Updated the jovoc again, none of the ablitites were even based on manuevers to start with.

Retributive aura now has no save, but does not affect creatues whose fort save bonuses arer greater than 1/2HD+con bonus. Its damage is equal to that taken with a maximum of 1/2 HD damage at 5HD, HD at 10HD and 2xHD at 18HD. The jovoc may not exclude the creature who dealt the damge and is immune to the aura. In addition the damage dealt is Vile.
I am also thinking about making it an immediate action useable 1/encounter to activate and have it last for 1/2 con score rounds, but that feels too ToB, your thoughts?

Hyudra
2011-02-04, 08:43 PM
I've updated the Unfinished Monster list, and the abandoned/updated monster lists in the bullet points above. I'll wait for further responses before I get around to sorting out the lists on the front page.

Replying to the responses to Nightwalker:

Undeads seem to always have weak Bab around here, but the Nightwalker is partially a melee fighter (disarm people and break their stuff), so I gave it some Str to help.

Plus the original monster has Str as it's highest stat.

Yes, but the end result of your efforts is a creature with sorta high strength that's nigh on unable to do anything effective with it. You won't be able to hit enemies with that BAB, even with the Str bonus.


It's a melee monster whitout much on the ranged deparment. It needs that speed.

It's not much of a melee monster with crummy BAB and staggered strength bonuses


Well, I don't think it hurts.

There's clarification, which is good, and there's redundancy, which just clutters and bogs things down.


Again, how? Dungeons are dark, and it's not exactly crippling for the party to move at night and rest by day.

Adventures aren't limited to dungeons. Just as an example, my last six campaigns involved only one dungeon, and even that had a pivotal battle occur outside (on the outside ledge of a mine-riddled mountain).

Giving a creature a notable drawback that forces the rest of the party to cater to it is bad design. It's why people groan about the Paladin & the Code of Conduct.

Add a way for the Nightwalker to wear a cloak to shield itself from the worst of the sun to reduce the drawbacks, perhaps, as exists for Drow.


You did notice the Nightwalker gets Improved Disarm and Improved Sunder at 1st level right? The chilling blow is for oponents which you cannot normally disarm/sunder.

Improved Disarm and Improved Sunder aren't much sought after to begin with, and you don't have the BAB to make reliable use of them.


Reduced to 1d3 rounds paralyzis. Also it's suposed to be a gaze attack (clarified that), and standard-action gaze has precedent on the original vampire template

The original vampire, while taking a novel approach (one of the monsters I like of Oslecamo's), still had the same issues that many of Oslecamo's monsters did. I wouldn't use it as a standard for balance.


Also it only becomes a free action at 16th level (casters are pretty crazy by now), and 1d3 rounds paralyzis isn't exactly auto-lose either, specially because whetever you make or lose the save you can't be affected by it again for 24 hours.

1d3 rounds of paralysis is liable to lose you the battle. If you don't get coup de graced, you're still losing enough actions for the battle to go very much against you.


Hmm, Contagion has instant incubation, so it works as a way of dealing ability damage. Added a clause to allow it to bypass disease immunity.

True about the first part. The second may be a bit much at an early level.


It's suposed to be a semi-permanent ability. It's not suposed to be easy to get rid off.

If it can be resumed less than a round after removal as a free action, it's not worth even describing how it can be dispelled.


Yes. Total eclipse!

I dunno. I see this irritating the campaign world residents enough that they launch a crusade against you.


Well, both aspects were buffed. More summons, combat bonus while inside darkness, making oponents blinded with your punches, turning oponent's gear in money right on the spot, greater bonus during eclipse, how is it now?

Only responding to your own reply. Stressing that I haven't glanced at the Nightwalker post-revision.

Also, please list changes in a Changelog at the end of the monster entry. It makes it a heck of a lot easier and faster to review the monster, than reviewing it top to bottom each time you make alterations.

Gorgondantess
2011-02-04, 08:52 PM
Yes, but the end result of your efforts is a creature with sorta high strength that's nigh on unable to do anything effective with it. You won't be able to hit enemies with that BAB, even with the Str bonus.
Well... the rule was to have 1/2 BAB for all undead monsters. While I don't think it's that important myself (for example, I advocated full BAB for the death knight), he's not exactly unjustified in doing so.


Adventures aren't limited to dungeons. Just as an example, my last six campaigns involved only one dungeon, and even that had a pivotal battle occur outside (on the outside ledge of a mine-riddled mountain).
Amen. I hate it when people say "Oh, it all takes place in dungeons!" Dungeon crawls are my least favorite part of D&D.
The purpose of this project is to make monsters playable. I say scrap the daylight penalty entirely and just give something like weakness to spells like daylight, and considered weak against spells like sunburst.


Improved Disarm and Improved Sunder aren't much sought after to begin with, and you don't have the BAB to make reliable use of them.
Also, granting bonus feats is just bad form, period. The reasoning for this is similar to arbitrarily granting casting, but even moreso- rather than giving them unique abilities, you're falling back on something that is easily obtainable regardless of class. If you want it to be a sunder/disarmer, do something like "On a successful attack the Nightwalker may make a free disarm attempt", or something like that. Well, better than that.


1d3 rounds of paralysis is liable to lose you the battle. If you don't get coup de graced, you're still losing enough actions for the battle to go very much against you.
Eh, I'd say at 16th level it's not that bad.

Megawizard
2011-02-04, 08:58 PM
Yes, but the end result of your efforts is a creature with sorta high strength that's nigh on unable to do anything effective with it. You won't be able to hit enemies with that BAB, even with the Str bonus.

But it doesn't only get the Str bonus. It gets the bonus for being in shaddow and eventually the desecrate aura and



It's not much of a melee monster with crummy BAB and staggered strength bonuses

Would +1 Str per level be ok then?



There's clarification, which is good, and there's redundancy, which just clutters and bogs things down.

Adventures aren't limited to dungeons. Just as an example, my last six campaigns involved only one dungeon, and even that had a pivotal battle occur outside (on the outside ledge of a mine-riddled mountain).

Giving a creature a notable drawback that forces the rest of the party to cater to it is bad design. It's why people groan about the Paladin & the Code of Conduct.

Add a way for the Nightwalker to wear a cloak to shield itself from the worst of the sun to reduce the drawbacks,

Ok.

perhaps, as exists for Drow.
[/QUOTE]
Wait, drows can do that? Where? :smallconfused:



Improved Disarm and Improved Sunder aren't much sought after to begin with, and you don't have the BAB to make reliable use of them.

At first level it doesn't make that much diference, and as the Nightwalker grows it gets several de-buffs to make sure his oponent will be disarmed.



The original vampire, while taking a novel approach (one of the monsters I like of Oslecamo's), still had the same issues that many of Oslecamo's monsters did. I wouldn't use it as a standard for balance.

I was talking about the MM vampire. It has a standard action gaze attack.



1d3 rounds of paralysis is liable to lose you the battle. If you don't get coup de graced, you're still losing enough actions for the battle to go very much against you.

Ok, so how about 1 round?



True about the first part. The second may be a bit much at an early level.

Make it trigger it at higher levels, check.



If it can be resumed less than a round after removal as a free action, it's not worth even describing how it can be dispelled.

Ok. Probably better that way.



I dunno. I see this irritating the campaign world residents enough that they launch a crusade against you.

How will they know it was the Nightwalker doing it?:smallamused:



Also, please list changes in a Changelog at the end of the monster entry. It makes it a heck of a lot easier and faster to review the monster, than reviewing it top to bottom each time you make alterations.

Will do for this ones, can't remember all the changes I did on the last time tough.

Hyudra
2011-02-04, 08:59 PM
Well... the rule was to have 1/2 BAB for all undead monsters. While I don't think it's that important myself (for example, I advocated full BAB for the death knight), he's not exactly unjustified in doing so.

Fair enough... but if it's to be a melee monster, it needs something else to compensate for the fact that it can't hit anything.


Eh, I'd say at 16th level it's not that bad.

That's fair, I suppose. Keep in mind, I was just reviewing from memory. I just didn't think it'd be fair to do what amounted to a second critique so soon after the last, when others have been patiently waiting.


But it doesn't only get the Str bonus. It gets the bonus for being in shaddow and eventually the desecrate aura and

Maybe that'll make up for it, but at low levels, just going by what I saw before the revisions.


How will they know it was the Nightwalker doing it?:smallamused:

If something as large scale as the sun going out, across the Prime Material, were to occur with any regularity, I'm sure the gods would have something to say. The Church of pelor, in particular, would kind of complain about it.

Lix Lorn
2011-02-04, 09:10 PM
Wait, drows can do that? Where? :smallconfused:
Several feats in their book. :smallsmile:

Crafty Cultist
2011-02-04, 09:28 PM
@Crafty, I think as a matter of general policy, I'll avoid letting people deem if their own work goes on the 'almost done' list, given that we don't have that objectivity with our own creations. In the spirit of such, I've kept my own work off that list.

IIRC, the Bleakborn was chosen as the first (and last?) 'Featured monster' in the last thread, with the idea that we'd all chip in and critique one monster at a time. It was a bad choice, though, as you weren't posting at the time, and thus were unable to take such critiques into account. I recall that there was a fair bit of info offered at the time, though. It may be worth your while to dig through the latter half of the fifth thread to find where that whole discussion came about.

I understand that I may be biased about my own monster, but as I have no complaints or critique for the monster, I am not sure what I can do. The only change currently under consideration is changing the Frost nova Ability from 1/day per 4HD to having a cooldown time during which its heat draining aura ceases to function. If there are no problems or suggetsions on how to improve, then I'd like to let the class be declared completed so I can get to work on other matters, like redoing my werebear and werewolf.

I hope I don't come off as disrespectful, but I'd like to get this finished, and all I can do at the moment is wait around.

Hyudra
2011-02-04, 09:35 PM
Just to clarify, Crafty, did you find & make use of the critiques I mentioned, that came up when the Bleakborn was the Featured Monster in Thread 5?

A few that came up with a search:
Magicyop comments: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=10031813&highlight=Bleakborn#post10031813
Zemro Shivic comments: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=9892617&highlight=Bleakborn#post9892617

And if you feel you've gone as far as you can, don't be shy about contributing a new monster. Starting a new monster when old ones aren't finished isn't a problem, provided you're on the ball and that you're not neglecting other unfinished monsters in the doing. You're one of the better creators, so I wouldn't have complaints if you were to contribute another monster.

That said, I do recall we kind of had another thread being made, devoted to the therianthropes, because there were far, far too many of them at one point.

Mystic Muse
2011-02-04, 09:36 PM
That said, I do recall we kind of had another thread being made, devoted to the therianthropes, because there were far, far too many of them at one point.

Yeah. Then it sort of died after 30 or so posts.

Crafty Cultist
2011-02-04, 09:58 PM
Just to clarify, Crafty, did you find & make use of the critiques I mentioned, that came up when the Bleakborn was the Featured Monster in Thread 5?

A few that came up with a search:
Magicyop comments: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=10031813&highlight=Bleakborn#post10031813
Zemro Shivic comments: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=9892617&highlight=Bleakborn#post9892617

And if you feel you've gone as far as you can, don't be shy about contributing a new monster. Starting a new monster when old ones aren't finished isn't a problem, provided you're on the ball and that you're not neglecting other unfinished monsters in the doing. You're one of the better creators, so I wouldn't have complaints if you were to contribute another monster.

That said, I do recall we kind of had another thread being made, devoted to the therianthropes, because there were far, far too many of them at one point.

I'd already responded to Magicyop's advice, and Zevro's allowed me to fix a mistake I'd made.

I'll deal with the werewolf and werebear once someone directs me to the new thread.

AustontheGreat1
2011-02-04, 09:58 PM
Go ahead and put the Ragewalker on the abandoned list. Moving soon, not gonna have a lot of time to work on things.

Megawizard
2011-02-04, 10:00 PM
If something as large scale as the sun going out, across the Prime Material, were to occur with any regularity, I'm sure the gods would have something to say. The Church of pelor, in particular, would kind of complain about it.

All the gods of darness and undeath would probably cover up your tracks however.:smallcool:

Anyway "The gods gank on you" it's kinda DM fiat don't you think?

Hyudra
2011-02-04, 10:26 PM
All the gods of darness and undeath would probably cover up your tracks however.:smallcool:

Anyway "The gods gank on you" it's kinda DM fiat don't you think?

You're putting out the sun, casting the whole Prime Material into chaos on a regular basis... if the God of the Sun launches a crusade, led by its greatest servants and champions, to put you down, that's not DM fiat. That's a plausible campaign setting. The thing about gods of darkness and undeath is that they're evil, and that doesn't guarantee they're going to help you out, unless you're in their service, and even then you're probably outnumbered in terms of enemies over allies.

The campaign is liable to derail the moment you get Eclipse, or you just break all suspension of disbelief. Sorry, I just find it rather hard to buy.

Zemro
2011-02-04, 10:28 PM
Marrash (MMII Pg 145)

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/mm2_gallery/88268_620_82.jpg

Class
Hit Die: d10

Skill Points at 1st Level: (4 + Int Mod) x4
Skill Points at each additional Level: 4 + Int modifier

Class Skills: Craft (Int), Balance (Dex), Heal (Wis), Jump (Str), Listen (Wis), Search (Int), Spot (Wis), Survival (Wis), Tumble (Dex)

{table=head]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Abilities|Ability Boosts

1st|+1|+2|+2|+0|Marrash Body, Glide, Disease Carrier|+1 Dex
2nd|+2|+3|+3|+0|Draw Disease, Outbreak, Disease Sense|+1 Con
3rd|+3|+3|+3|+1|Intensify Infection, Disease Healing, Archer's Presence|
4th|+4|+4|+4|+1|Afflictive Ammunition|+1 Dex
5th|+5|+4|+4|+1|Double Bowfire, Taklif Curse, Flight|+1 Con[/table]

Proficiencies: Marrashi are proficient with their natural weapons and all types of bows, except for crossbows. They are also proficient with light armour.

Marrash Body: A Marrash (plural Marrashi) looses all other racial characteristics and becomes a creature of the Outsider type with the following traits:
Medium Size
Base Land Speed: 30ft
Darkvision 60ft
Natural Armour Bonus equal to its Con mod
Immunity to all diseases, including supernatural and magical ones.
Two Primary Claw attacks dealing 1d6+Str Mod each
While in the air (or otherwise not walking with them) a Marrash also gains two secondary talon attacks, dealing 1d4+1/2 Str Mod each.

Glide (Ex): While it posses wings, they are not yet strong enough to bear the Marrash aloft. They, can, however use them for extra lift while jumping giving them a +10 racial bonus on jump checks.

Additionally, Marrashi can use their wings to glide through the air, negating the damage from a fall. While gliding they have an effective fly speed of 30ft with average maneuverability and drop 5ft for every 15ft traveled. Even if a Marrash's maneuverability improves it cannot hover while gliding, always dropping at least 5ft per round. It also cannot glide while carrying a medium or heavy load.

If the Marrash becomes unconscious or helpless while in the air its wings will naturally unfurl and stiffen themselves. This causes the Marrash to descend in a tight corkscrew, slowing its decent and reducing falling damage to 1d6 no matter the height.

Ability Boosts: Marrashi receive a +1 bonus to Dexterity at 1st and 4th level, and a +1 to Constitution at 2nd and 5th for a total of +2 Dex and +2 Con at 5th.

Disease Carrier (Ex): Generations of working with disease have left even the lowliest of the Marrashi the ability to cripple opponents with disease. Whenever a Marrash deals damage to a creature with its natural weapons the target must immediately make a fortitude save (DC= 10 + 1/2 HD + Con Mod) or contract Marrashi Fever. Creatures who damage a Marrash with their down natural weapons must also make a save against Marrash Fever. Creatures already suffering from Marrashi Fever instead take a -2 penalty to their next save, as they cannot contract the disease twice.

Marrashi Fever is a disease with no incubation period that deals 1d3 points of Dex damage immediately upon a failed save. Infected creatures must make another save at the beginning of each turn or take an additional two points of Dex damage. Success on the save means they've beaten the disease and need make no further save unless reinfected.

Creatures that ingest the Marrash (such as with the swallow whole ability) are not directly exposed until the Marrash is damaged, but are sickened for as long as it remains inside. Creatures immune to being sickened still take a -2 penalty on saves from contracting a Marrash's disease while its inside. Marrash are not otherwise infectious, and do not transmit disease through simple contact.

As they advance in HD the potency of the disease they carry increases. At 5HD the initial damage of Marrash Fever increase to 1d3 points of Dex and Con damage, and the reoccurring damage changes to 2 point of Dex and Con damage. For every 5 additional HD the die of the initial damage increases by one step, and the reoccurring damage increases by 1.

Draw Disease (Ex): Marrash of second level have mastered a trick by which to draw other diseases into their body and become carrier for them as they do with Marrashi Fever. Whenever a Marrash would be exposed to a disease (or simply makes contact with a diseased creature) he may choose to make a saving throw against the disease's DC anyway, despite their immunity to disease. If they fail this saving throw they do not contract the disease but are instead sicked for 1d4 rounds, if the failure was by 5 or more they are nauseated for the same duration instead. A Marrash who posses immunity to being sickened or nauseated does not benefit from that immunity in this case, but instead receives a +2 bonus on the saving throw.

If successful the Marrash traps a number of strains of the disease equal to half of his total result. The Marrash only traps the extraordinary effects of the disease, not the supernatural effects of diseases such as Mummy Rot. It is in no danger from the trapped disease, and may hold a total number of diseases equal to half its Con Modifier. Multiple instances of the same disease stack to a maximum amount of strains equal to twice his Con Mod, increasing to triple his Con Mod at 15HD. If a remove disease spell is cast upon the Marrash he is entitled to a saving throw with a +1 bonus for each carried disease beyond the first. If successful the Marrash retains all his diseases and the caster must immediately make a saving throw against Marrashi Fever and one carried disease at random. If the Marrash fails his saving throw he loses a number of disease strains equal to the caster level of the spell and may not transmit disease for 1d4 rounds.

If the Marrash attempts to absorb a disease when already carrying his maximum he has two options. The first is to make a saving throw as normal, but on a success the Marrash receives only half the strains he normally would (1/4 his result). However these strains can divided amongst his carried disease to his choosing. Alternatively he chooses one of his already carried diseases, divides it's strains in half and distributes these amongst the other diseases instead. If none of his diseases can carry more strains, the extra strains are lost, his body's immune system simply destroying them.

Temporary boosts to a Marrash's constitution (such as a Barbarian's rage, or Wizard's Bear's Endurance spell) do not allow a Marrash to trap more diseases or hold more strains than he normally could. Magical items such as an Amulet of Health do increase this limit, but only after worn for 24 hours. If the Marrash suffers a decrease to constitution (such as ability drain, ability damage, or entering an antimagic field when benefiting from an Amulet of Health) he immediately divides its strains in half and distributes them as if making room for another disease.

Outbreak (Ex): With the ability to draw diseases into their body, a Marrash can accumulate a number of different diseases. Second level Marrashi thus also develop an ability to use those diseases. Whenever he would force an opponent to make a save against with his Disease Carrier ability he can reduce the number of strains of a carried disease by one and replace Marrash Fever with that disease. Diseases contracted in this way are considered to have passed their incubation period, and thus failure of the initial save deals the diseases damage and then follows the rules for disease as normal.

The potency of these diseases are also effected by the Marrash's HD. At 5HD and with every additional 5HD, increases the die size of replaced diseases by one step. The additional effects of extraordinary diseases (such as being struck blind from blinding sickness) are preserved, but not enhanced by the Marrash's HD.

As with Marrashi Fever a target cannot be infected with the same disease more than once, instead they merely make another save against that disease when re-exposed through this ability.

Willing Marrash with this ability may freely exchange diseases and strains between each other through physical contact, keeping in mine their won respective limits for carried diseases and strains.

Disease Sense (Ex): Second level Marrashi have keen senses in regards to disease, allowing them to be aware of contaminated creatures and objects nearby. His senses allow him to detect the presence or absence of disease, the number of contaminated subjects and their exact positions within 30ft plus an additional 5ft per HD. He also receives a +4 bonus to survival checks to track a diseased target, but only if the trail is no more then 1 hour old per HD.

By spending a swift action he can, as a supernatural ability, empower his sight to visibly perceive disease for 1 round per HD. Each contaminated subject within range of his disease sense takes on a glow to his sight unique to the disease, or diseases they carry. He perceives their exact location and can ignore any form of concealment (including against invisible targets) with his ranged and melee attacks. Once he stops detecting disease in this fashion he must wait five minutes before doing so again.

Intensify Infection (Su): Disease often take a long time before their effects take a toll on their carrier, so in order to increase effectiveness Marrashi of third level have developed a supernatural ability to intensify an infection. As a standard action he can end the incubation period of all diseases carried by a target, forcing him to make a fortitude save against the individual diseases or suffer their damage. Even if the Marrash did not inflict the creature initially with the disease, treat the disease as though he had from now on. After using this ability the Marrash must wait 1d4 rounds to do so again.

This ability also allows a Marrash to grow additional strains of diseases he has trapped. Once per day a Marrash can increase the carried strains of all his diseases by 10% (minimum increase of one).

Disease Healing (Su): Beginning at third level a Marrash may transform a single disease held by him, or another creature, into healing energy. Regardless of target this ability takes a full-round action and can be used once per day plus an additional time per 5HD.

Self: When used upon himself this ability requires the Marrash to immediately loose one of his carried diseases. He then heals for a number of hit points equal to the amount of strains previously belonging to that disease. Alternately for every 10 he reduces that healing by he can cure himself of one point of ability damage.

Other (Non-Marrash): The Marrash makes a fortitude save for the target against one disease they are carrying, on a success the target is cured of the disease and any effect in had inflicted upon its target. If the creature had sustained no ill effects they are instead healed for HP equal to half the check result. On a failure the target receives no benefits, and the use of this ability is not expended.

Other Marrashi: The ability functions almost identically to when used upon the Marrash's self, except the disease consumed must be one the target Marrash is carrying.

As an added benefit, whenever a Marrash would be required to lose strains or diseases through his Draw Disease ability he can instead choose to convert those strains into healing. Each strain used in this manner heals the Marrash for 1hp instead of being completely destroyed by his body. Unlike the above function of this ability, this conversion is an extraordinary ability.

Archer's Presence (Ex): As they increase in proficiency with manipulating diseases, so to does their skills for ranged combat increase. When wielding a bow (or crossbow if they acquire proficiency with one) a Marrash of third level threatens squares within 10ft as though wielding a reach weapon such as a spiked chain, making attacks with his bow against those who provoke. This additional training also prevents them from provoking an AoO when firing a bow in melee.

Afflictive Ammunition (Su): For a fourth level Marrash, his natural weapons are not the only way for him to transmit disease. As a standard action he can infect a piece of ammunition that deals piercing or slashing damage with Marrashi Fever. Alternatively he may consume a strain from one of his carried disease to infect the piece of ammunition with that instead. When such a piece of ammunition damages a creature, the target immediately makes a save versus disease as with the Disease Carrier and Outbreak abilities. A save against disease must also be made if the piece of ammunition is handled by a creature vulnerable to disease. In either case the piece of ammunition loses any traces of the disease afterward, regardless of the success or failure of the save.

Double Bowfire (Ex): The pinnacle of Marrashi bowsmanship, those who reach fifth level have mastered an additional trick to firing composite bows. While flying a Marrah may hold his bow with his talons instead of claws, allowing him to use both claws to fire the weapon. Whenever making an attack with a bow in this fashion he may choose to fire two arrows with every attack roll he makes. Precision damage such as sneak attack only applies to one arrow in each pair and both gain full benefit from the bow's enchantments but only half of the Marrash's strength modifier (Maximum of half the bow's rating). On a critical hit, only the damage from one of the arrows (the one benefiting from precision damage) is multiplied and effects that trigger on a critical hit only trigger once.

Marrashi using the Manyshot feat only add a single arrow to the attack, as the feat is essentially an extension of their training at firing multiple arrows at once.

Only composite bows have sturdy enough construction for this technique to be executed properly, and thus the Marrash may not perform this technique with a normal bow. If the bow is capable of generating its own ammunition (as with an Energy Bow (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20061227a)) the Marrash can use this technique to generate two shots with every attack.

This ability does cannot be used with bows enchanted with the splitting property as the splitting of the arrows ruins the technique's implementation.

Flight: At fifth level the Marrash's wings have strengthened enough to properly bear him aloft, and he gains a flight speed of 30ft and average maneuverability. This continues to improve by 5ft for each additional HD. This reaches a maximum of 70ft at 13HD, but their maneuverability increases to good at 10HD

Taklif Curse (Su): The cultivation of a powerful supernatural disease known as the Taklif Curse is an ability only possessed by the most skilled of the Marrashi. Those of fifth level may, as a standard action, consume 20 strains in any combination from his carried diseases in order to create a Taklif Curse. Treat the Taklif curse as a seperate disease in regards to the number of different diseases a Marrash can have at any one time with his Draw Disease ability, except he can never have more than one strain of the Taklif Curse. Like any disease possessed by the Marrash he can attempt to infect a target with it through either his Outbreak or Afflictive Ammunition Abilities. Creatures that are normally immune to diseases, or just the negative effects of, (such as Paladins, Cancer Mages, and other Marrash) are not immune to the effects of the Taklif Curse and must make a saving throw against it's effects as normal.

Upon failing their initial saving throw against the Taklif Curse the target immediately takes a number points of ability damage to their highest ability score equal to the infecting Marrash's HD/2. This damage doesn't benefit from the standard increases a diseases receives through the Marrash's Outbreak ability. Saving throws against the disease are made every round after infection, and the disease deals its damage again for every failure. Successful saves to do cure the disease so long as the curse persists, merely allowing the creature to avoid taking damage for that round. Though if the creature makes two successful saving throws in a row it only has to make saves every minute, unless subjected to the Intensify Infection ability of a Marrash after which is resumes making saves again as normal.

Successful saving throws and spells also do nothing to rid a creature of the Taklif Curse's disease so long as the curse itself persists. The infected creature must first receive a break enchantment or remove curse spell, and the caster must succeed at a caster level check (DC 10+HD of the Marrash). After which the disease may be cured as normal, though the frequency at which saves must be made does not decrease.

If the creature dies before the disease can be cured, they cannot be raised or resurrected until it has been purged from their body. If their corpse is nor cured within 1d6 days after death it rises from the dead as a first level Marrash, loosing all previous race templates or monster class levels. The new marrash has the same alignment, memories, experience and general world view as the previous creature, though now embraces its new race and their practices. It has a friendly disposition to it's creator, but is not beholden to him in any way and is likely to seek out the nearest large settlement of Marrash to learn more about its new people.

A Marrash carrying a strain of the Taklif curse is not at risk of loosing it if subject to a remove disease spell, unless first subject to a break enchantment or remove curse spell following the above limitations. Any failure on the part of a caster to purge a Marrash of its Taklif Curse results in them contracting it.

Disease Advancement Chart
{table=head]Disease|Base Damage|At 5HD|At 10HD|At 15HD|At 20HD|Notes
Marrashi Fever|1d3 Dex|1d3 Dex and Con|1d4 Dex and Con|1d6 Dex and Con|1d8 Dex and Con|
|2 Dex|3 Dex and Con|4 Dex and Con|5 Dex and Con|6 Dex and Con|Marrashi Fever Reoccurring Damage
Blinding Sickness|1d4 Str|1d6 Str|1d8 Str|2d6 Str|3d6 Str|Save vs Blind every time 2+ damage is taken
Cackle Fever|1d6 Wis|1d8 Wis|2d6 Wis|3d6 Wis|4d6 Wis|
Demon Fever|1d6 Con|1d8 Con|2d6 Con|3d6 Con|4d6 Con|No aditional effects
Devil Chills|1d4 Str|1d6 Str|1d8 Str|2d6 Str|3d6 Str|No aditional effects
Filth Fever|1d3 Dex and Con|1d4 Dex and Con|1d6 Dex and Con|1d8 Dex and Con|2d6 Dex and Con|
Mindfire|1d4 Int|1d6 Int|1d8 Int|2d6 Int|3d6 Int|
Mummy Rot|1d6 Con|1d8 Con|2d6 Con|3d6 Con|4d6 Con|No aditional effects
Red Ache|1d6 Str|1d8 Str|2d6 Str|3d6 Str|4d6 Str|
Shakes|1d8 Dex|2d6 Dex|3d6 Dex|4d6 Dex|5d6 Dex|
Slimy Doom|1d4 Con|1d6 Con|1d8 Con|2d6 Con|3d6 Con|Chance to inflict ability drain
[/table]

Changelog
February 6th
Body of Disease renamed Marrash Body
A tonne of spelling corrections that somehow eluded the spell check the first time around.
February 8th
More spelling and grammar fixes.
DC calculations made more concise.
Disease Sense can now pinpoint locations easily and scales range based on HD
Flight moved to a separate ability at fifth level
February 10th
Plauged Movement renamed Glide
Disease Carrier changed to include a natural disease and move to first level
Draw Disease changed and move to second level
New Ability (Outbreak) added at second level to cover disease carrier's previous functions
Intensify Infection changed
Archer's Presence moved to third level
New Ability (Disease Healing) added at third level
Afflictive Ammunition Updates to reflect changes to the disease mechanics.
Some wording on Disease Carrier clarified.
Maximum strains from Draw Disease reduce to 1/2 HD x Con Mod
Changed how Disease Healing's uses per day were determined
Couple more spell corrections
Wording made less awkward on Afflictive Ammunition
February 13th
Slightly increased Marrashi Fever's initial damage
Intensify Infection cooldown reduce to 1d4 rounds
Disease Healing can only cure ability damage, not drain.
Made a chart to outline disease damage progression
Removed Medium Armour Proficiency
Reduced maximum number of strains and maximum number of diseases.
Taklif Curse Updated
February 21st
Cleaned up wording and formatting for proficiencies.
Fixed spelling error for disease healing.
Toned Double Bowfire down.
Fixed a spelling error on Taklif Curse

Comments
Since further progress with the Thorn in contingent on other pointing issues out, I have decided to post the Marrash class that I've been sitting on. The race itself originally only had the defining feature of their double bowfire and Taklif arrows, but with a fluff note of being plague carriers of a sort.

So, I decided to go with that, allowing Marrashi to capture and spread diseases as one of the main facets of the class, while preserving the ranged features of the original race. I think its natural weapon give an interesting melee option, especially in conjunction with the raptoran style flight, so I figure its decently well rounded. The disease mechanic is, perhaps, a bit lengthier then I had remembered, but aside from some initial processing I do not think it overly complicated.

I made the class up in notepad, so I'm a bit worried about spelling errors, but I'm otherwise I've reached the limit of what I can do independently. Hopefully the class's reception is favourable, and I can finally receive the feedback I need to continue work on the class.

EDIT: Also, just to note, the plural spelling is from the MMII itself, so I'm not making that up or anything.

radmelon
2011-02-04, 11:09 PM
You're putting out the sun, casting the whole Prime Material into chaos on a regular basis... if the God of the Sun launches a crusade, led by its greatest servants and champions, to put you down, that's not DM fiat. That's a plausible campaign setting. The thing about gods of darkness and undeath is that they're evil, and that doesn't guarantee they're going to help you out, unless you're in their service, and even then you're probably outnumbered in terms of enemies over allies.

The campaign is liable to derail the moment you get Eclipse, or you just break all suspension of disbelief. Sorry, I just find it rather hard to buy.

Maybe a several mile radius would be a good compromise.

NineThePuma
2011-02-04, 11:25 PM
The thing about gods of darkness and undeath is that they're evil.

A couple tropes would like a word with you. :P

Hyudra
2011-02-05, 12:28 AM
You're quite right, Ninethepuma. That was badly biased of me.

I'll rephrase: "All respectable gods of darkness and undeath are evil."

Hyudra
2011-02-05, 12:54 AM
Reviewing some monsters I haven't covered yet/in a while:

Bleakborn (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9618000&postcount=669):
General formatting:
Worth stating the source.
Capitalize ability names throughout. Icy touch in the table, for example, should be Icy Touch.
In listing individual abilities in the body of the text, bold or italicize (bold preferred) the ability names to make them stand out & to make it less 'staggered wall of text'.
Frozen Body:
Should be renamed to 'Bleakborn Body', to avoid confusion with other cold based monster classes.
Languages?
Proficiencies:
Wepons -> Weapons.
Icy Touch:
I'd consider letting the Bleakborn replace any melee attack with a touch attack, under the same rules you listed. This lets you make two attacks a round and make iterative attacks using the touch attack, which helps a great deal since your BAB bites.
Fire Lover:
"For every 3 point of fire damage an attack deals..." - I think this should refer to damage taken, as the current wording implies it affects attacks the Bleakborn makes.
Also, even with the 'instead' there, it doesn't really make it clear the Bleakborn is immune to fire. Clarify?
Turn resistance:
Capitalize to 'Turn Resistance'?
Kinda boring.
Heat Siphon:
Capitalize ability names throughout. heat siphon should be Heat Siphon, in the body of text.
Spelling error: Exeption
Heat draining aura:
Should be named Heat Draining Aura.
I'd state that the ability isn't fueled by creatures that couldn't grant experience to the bleakborn, to prevent shenanigans (I imagine a PC from bringing rats around with them to fuel the ability. Have a big cage of rats, drag it 11 feet behind you, use aura to kill one rat and get healing, rinse, repeat).
Brittle Strike:
Capitalize to Brittle Strike.
Ability damage is just a bit low & scales a tad slowly.
Greater Icy Touch:
Capitalize ability name. I'm going to stop mentioning this, but apply it to every ability entry below.
Ice Ward:
That's not much damage reduction. 1/2 HD?
Create Spawn:
You state the Bleakborn raises any creature it kills, but then you imply it works on any creature that dies within the heat draining aura.
I wonder if the zombies will become kind of useless at a later level.
Ice Slick:
I don't like Prone as an easily applied condition. Especially as an area of effect easily applied condition. Especially when it uses a skill that most creatures won't have available. And you can use it constantly.
Greater Heat Draining Aura:
I'm wondering if the scaling on heat draining aura is too much.
Exclusion is ok... 12 free damage a round might be a bit much at 6th, though.
Frost Nova:
What kind of action is this?
Perhaps a little too hazardous to teammates.

Solamith (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9773475&postcount=1173)
Consider tweaking the starting languages, so there's less risk of a language barrier with fellow PCs. 3 is a bit much to start, especially when one isn't common.
Why 2 damage per 2 HD when you could have 1 damage per HD? Just curious.
Demon:
You start a sentence as "Plus telepathy..." - it reads kinda funny. Change so the sentences are complete sentences?
Ditto for "Also..."
Infernal Summoning:
It's a little unclear how the progression of new summon monster spells works with the 'once per day' limit. When I gain 4th level in the class, do I have the ability to cast Summon Monster I 1/day and Summon Monster II 1/day? Or does one replace the other?
Soulfire Retort:
It's quite powerful, this. I'm not a fan of swift actions that deal damage. Perhaps make it a move action, so you retain the ability to use retort and make an attack/throw soulfire, without breaking the action economy? This would force a choice between an aggressive retaliatory attack and a more defensive move action.
Otherwise, looks good.

Thorn (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9876046&postcount=87)
For the sake of my OCPD, can you remove the text prior to the Thorn entry? No longer needed, and it detracts from the monster.
Refreshing to have a roguelike creature, I gotta say.
Under Sneak Attack, you use 'loose', where you mean 'lose'.
Under Slumbering Shots, you use 'effect' where you mean 'affect'.
For the slow effect, consider making it break under the same conditions that would break the sleep spell, so it doesn't work out as a potentially better effect to apply.
The dex mod to damage feels like it comes a little late.
You reference slumbering shots getting stuck in, forcing repeated saves, and reference Weapon of barbs, but unless I'm being lamebrained, that 'getting stuck' bit is referenced under Piercing Strikes.
Slumbering Shots is maybe a bit too powerful, with stacked penalties on the save and the 'save or lose' effect of it. Find a way to tone it down, just a bit?
A few too many bonuses on attacks, for such a relatively low level. Scrub the DR penetration or regeneration penetration, perhaps?
Weapon of Barbs' bonus is maybe too easy to apply, considering the total benefit. Consider that you're getting the effect for the duration of each & every encounter. Since it lasts your wis or cha mod (which you're going to stack from an early level), it's liable to last most/all of the encounter. It costs nothing to activate, so you're really losing nothing for a free, up to date, customized magic weapon. Change to a 1/day per X HD, so you can't use it for *every* encounter & have to choose when to apply it, perhaps?

Pandorym (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9943992&postcount=295)
God, I hate 20 level creatures.
Duration on corporealized limbs?
You reference telepathic backlash, but it doesn't appear in the body of the text.
9th level is really dull.
What kind of action is warp jump?
I admit, I'm not well versed in psionics. Or high level creatures. Glancing over it, I can't see any glaring problems, but I'm not well versed here. If anyone wants to be a hero, I could stand some more general critiques of the Pandorym before coming to a final verdict.

Jovoc (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9955384&postcount=425)
Str bonus to claw attacks?
Should rename Body of Vengeance to Jovoc Body.
Second level is really boring. Only passive abilities.
Punishment Strike is rather over the top, given how fast it scales, and how easy it is to qualify to activate.
Don't start sentences with And (as in Rapid Recovery)
Formatting error in Bloodclaws (14HD bonus isn't indented)
Retributive Aura:
The 'immune if your fort save is...' bit is kind of lame. It's a pain to check and track during battle ("Was that guy immune or not?")
"A creature s not subject to the aura" - missing an i there.
What would your thoughts be on going up against a pair or trio of Jovoc with these class levels, from the perspective of a 5th/7th level PC? Scads of vile damage to your entire team any time you try to hurt it, more vile damage as they spend HP while attacking you. Vile Damage is, like disease, something that doesn't particularly hamper most monsters, while it does inconvenience PCs. I wonder how apt it is here.

Briarvex (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10000991&postcount=583)
"Full strength is added to these strikes" reads a little weird.
Leathal should be spelled lethal.
Spellcheck! Oppurtunity
I'd remove 'per thorn point' at the end of Briar Burrow, as it reads awkwardly and is really unneeded.
I think what bugs me about Thorn Burrow is that it's basically sneak attack damage, without restrictions on how the damage can be applied (must be flanking, etc.), with a dex penalty until it is triggered (lowering AC, among other things). Opponents aren't really going to get a chance to remove the thorns in your usual combat, by virtue of either not having the heal skill or not being willing to take the actions to remove the thorns.
I don't like entangle as anything less than a move action.
I'd replace HD/4 times a day with something easier to read. I swear I complained about this earlier. It's confusing, and can be interpreted as 4x per HD.

Gray Jester (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10051752&postcount=693)
Looks pretty good.
Joy slaves - might just suggest 1 per 5 HD for simplicity's sake. Open to suggestions.

Quasi-God (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10077255&postcount=719)
Don't love divine spark. Doesn't fit every god, either in the blasting or the healing departments (I don't see Kord throwing lightning, or Nerull healing).
Regardless, rather than write "deals 1d6/2HD damage.", it'd be much cleaner to write it out in full.
Ditto for "Additionally, 1/2HD each day", which is confusing at first read.
Fledgling Portfolio:
You refer to the creature as a god. Are they really? AFAIK, they don't qualify as such until they have a divine rank.
You use it's instead of its, second paragraph.
State that the choice of resistance is made once.
Broken list tags under Aura of Divinity.
Aura of Resolve is incredibly strong. A simple +3 to all allies' saves, attack rolls, skills and ability checks at 9th level?
I don't even understand how Weaken Aura works. What if enemies don't have that many levels?
The Demiplane seems badly abusable. Combat not going your way? Head to the demiplane to wait out the negative spell effects, or let your friends scamper through.
Honestly, this creature, along with the Pandorym, is so 'out there' that I don't feel, even after going through it ability by ability, that I have a good grasp of it or where it stands. I admit I'm perplexed.

Black Dragon (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10246297&postcount=149)
God, I really hate 20 level creatures.
Level 1 feels a little too packed full of stuff. Consider stretching out some of those benefits over levels.
SLAs aren't terribly interesting. You've already got arcane spells. Why not replace these SLAs with something more thematic and fitting?
Set a cap on flight speed.
Lots of levels, you only get one spell, which can only be used once a day or so. This makes it a tad placid, and doesn't really drive home the draconic flavor.
I can't tell what the Black Dragon is trying to be. I mean, this is kind of a problem I have with all dragons, but you've got a bonus to hide checks (roguish), spells (caster-ish), full BAB and tons of natural attacks (Fighter-ish), and it feels kind of schizophrenic as a result.
Toxic breath needs clarification. It doesn't mention it's poison until far too late, which makes it confusing on first read. It also eclipses and outclasses weakening breath.
Not sure I get or like the whole 'dragon can turn nauseated to sickened' bit.
Impure Breath is kind of underwhelming as a capstone.

Locathah (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10265374&postcount=217)
Looks fine.

Hellfire Wyrm
I'll review it when you find a picture and fill out the dead levels.

Mystic Muse
2011-02-05, 01:49 AM
Hellfire Wyrm
I'll review it when you find a picture and fill out the dead levels.

Considering you apparently hate 20 level classes with the burning white hot intensity of a thousand suns, you don't have to bother.

Gorgondantess
2011-02-05, 02:07 AM
Pandorym: 1st level offers almost nothing. Let's look at what you lose:
10 feet less move speed than most classes.
No fine manipulation.
Terrible skills.
Bad hp.
Can't wear armor.
Can't use weapons.
And what you get:
The ability to keep up with every other race for 1 round.
A mediocre slam attack.
...Actually, by RAW, the class couldn't even get the move speed bonus until at least 3rd level (4th if you don't round up). And does the class not have a strength score? Why is bonus slam damage based on con?

Crystalline spray: scale? Scale!

Also, I'm not a fan of the BAB. Even psions use attack rolls once in a while, and I don't see why this fellow would be even worse than someone totally untrained in combat.

Ego whiplash: It's only at all decent if you can kill a creature by slamming its charisma into nothing. As is, that's nearly impossible. Smooth out the scaling, make it a little more regular, eh?

Manifestation of will: why can't you just say: "gains manifestation as a psion of a level equal to class level-3." At first to third level you could just say it has a PP reserve of 1 or 0, and gains bonus PP based on intelligence.
Speaking of ability scores, all the other stuff really should be charisma. It's the ability score that governs innate abilities. Beyond that, it's the actual pandorym's highest ability score.

Faint Sign of Binding: Very, very weak. DC is ridiculously low, especially for one that targets a skill check. Level 2 wizards should be able to pass it by rolling above a 3.

Corporealize: What's the duration? One would simply make as many as possible. Might as well just say "gain con mod pseudopods".

Bonus psionic feat: *smacks* NO BONUS FEAT! IZ LAZY!:smalltongue:
A good substitution would be to slap incorporeality on that level.

Moderate sign of binding: abusable. Especially because most casters will summon creatures similar to their own alignment.

3rd facet of mind: Um. It's a lot weaker than a single feat (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#psionicMeditation). Swift action?

Psionic Leech: does it affect every psion in the world, or does it have a range?

Strong Sign of Binding: was it meant to be versatile? I can imagine a clever pandorym using it as a buff, to make their non-casting allies immune to conjuration spells.
Also: probably a good idea to rewrite it so it is conjuration spells that allow SR.

A note on PLAs: due to their highly flexible nature and scaling by ML, you don't need to do much with them. Go ahead and use standard PLA DCs, and I wouldn't do instant augmentations like under 5th facet- whether it increases DC is muddy.

Psionic Vortex: Zam! Wow. A little powerful. It allows higher amounts of augmentation. Kindof a really super powerful capstone.

7th facet: underwhelming. Just a will save or die.

Zemro
2011-02-05, 02:13 AM
Thorn (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9876046&postcount=87)
For the sake of my OCPD, can you remove the text prior to the Thorn entry? No longer needed, and it detracts from the monster.

Done. It bothered me for somewhat similar reasons but didn't know if I should remove it. Since it's bothering someone else I've gone ahead and removed it.


Refreshing to have a roguelike creature, I gotta say.
Under Sneak Attack, you use 'loose', where you mean 'lose'.
Under Slumbering Shots, you use 'effect' where you mean 'affect'.


Hurrah! And double done.


For the slow effect, consider making it break under the same conditions that would break the sleep spell, so it doesn't work out as a potentially better effect to apply.

Not so sure about that, as sleep breaks when you hit a creature and that largely seems to defeat the purpose of a slow effect. The creature can still attack you, but attacking back breaks the debuff. Sleep takes a creature right out of the battle, and leaves them open for a lethal coup de gras.

I can think of a few duration tweaks that might make it more comparable though, I'll test one out.


The dex mod to damage feels like it comes a little late.

Maybe? The Thorn seems pretty well off before that, between sneak attack and slumbering shots.


You reference slumbering shots getting stuck in, forcing repeated saves, and reference Weapon of barbs, but unless I'm being lamebrained, that 'getting stuck' bit is referenced under Piercing Strikes.

I may have overlooked some name changes when I rearranged the various abilities...


Slumbering Shots is maybe a bit too powerful, with stacked penalties on the save and the 'save or lose' effect of it. Find a way to tone it down, just a bit?

I toned down the additional save debuff from Piercing Strikes to -1 per two stuck projectiles.


A few too many bonuses on attacks, for such a relatively low level. Scrub the DR penetration or regeneration penetration, perhaps?

I initially thought to have the penetration limited by their ability modifier, so a Training Thorn with a +4 Wisdom modifier would ignore the first 4 points of the DR, and could deal 4 points of their damage as lethal versus regenerating creatures, but couldn't word it succinctly.

I could implement that if you think it would make things more acceptable, otherwise I'll have to consider which one to drop... I think the DR is more useful, but like the regeneration one because it's a relatively unique ability.


Weapon of Barbs' bonus is maybe too easy to apply, considering the total benefit. Consider that you're getting the effect for the duration of each & every encounter. Since it lasts your wis or cha mod (which you're going to stack from an early level), it's liable to last most/all of the encounter. It costs nothing to activate, so you're really losing nothing for a free, up to date, customized magic weapon. Change to a 1/day per X HD, so you can't use it for *every* encounter & have to choose when to apply it, perhaps?

Taking a similar approach to some of my other toning down, I've changed the duration to equal half their ability modifier, that should perhaps curb things somewhat?

Otherwise, maybe have it lasting 1 round, and then a small cooldown (like a breathweapon) would be also acceptable?

Also, a quick google search (Monster Manual 2 Art Gallery) got me an image I think someone could make use of...http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/mm2_gallery/88268_620_69.jpg

The Antigamer
2011-02-05, 02:40 AM
Gray Jester (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10051752&postcount=693)
Looks pretty good.
Joy slaves - might just suggest 1 per 5 HD for simplicity's sake. Open to suggestions.


Alright, 1 per 5 it is. I think it's pretty much done then, though would you care to comment on the proposed racial feat in the comments and queries?

NineThePuma
2011-02-05, 06:15 AM
I have a minor suggestion/request...

It's standard to have a follow-up class that the race tends toward, and what not.

Could those follow up classes be listed?

My ideal would be to have a table that listed monsters based on Racial Type (Outsider, Fey, etc), follow up class, and possibly even their original source.

Using a table with a header list would allow the searcher to organize it how they wish.

It's just a thought tho.

Betropper
2011-02-05, 08:20 AM
Made some changes to Gibbering Mouther. Also Gorgon, the point of being able to latch on to big creatures was that they had to first fail a strength save. In effect, a colossal creature deserves to be stuck if it failed the save.

Also, could anyone critique my Lycanthropy entry? It hasn't gotten any critiques that I have seen.

Hyudra
2011-02-05, 12:13 PM
I have a minor suggestion/request...

It's standard to have a follow-up class that the race tends toward, and what not.

Could those follow up classes be listed?

My ideal would be to have a table that listed monsters based on Racial Type (Outsider, Fey, etc), follow up class, and possibly even their original source.

Using a table with a header list would allow the searcher to organize it how they wish.

It's just a thought tho.

Er, I don't know that I see the merit. But if you were to put such a table together and sell it to us, we might adopt it. Please feel free to try doing so.

And if you find it a daunting amount of work (as per your last few suggestions), consider that the rest of us, who are kind of busy with monsters & critiques and whatnot, might find it more so.

Crafty Cultist
2011-02-05, 03:24 PM
Bleakborn (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9618000&postcount=669):
General formatting:
Worth stating the source.
Capitalize ability names throughout. Icy touch in the table, for example, should be Icy Touch.
In listing individual abilities in the body of the text, bold or italicize (bold preferred) the ability names to make them stand out & to make it less 'staggered wall of text'.
Frozen Body:
Should be renamed to 'Bleakborn Body', to avoid confusion with other cold based monster classes.
Languages?
Proficiencies:
Wepons -> Weapons.
Icy Touch:
I'd consider letting the Bleakborn replace any melee attack with a touch attack, under the same rules you listed. This lets you make two attacks a round and make iterative attacks using the touch attack, which helps a great deal since your BAB bites.
Fire Lover:
"For every 3 point of fire damage an attack deals..." - I think this should refer to damage taken, as the current wording implies it affects attacks the Bleakborn makes.
Also, even with the 'instead' there, it doesn't really make it clear the Bleakborn is immune to fire. Clarify?
Turn resistance:
Capitalize to 'Turn Resistance'?
Kinda boring.
Heat Siphon:
Capitalize ability names throughout. heat siphon should be Heat Siphon, in the body of text.
Spelling error: Exeption
Heat draining aura:
Should be named Heat Draining Aura.
I'd state that the ability isn't fueled by creatures that couldn't grant experience to the bleakborn, to prevent shenanigans (I imagine a PC from bringing rats around with them to fuel the ability. Have a big cage of rats, drag it 11 feet behind you, use aura to kill one rat and get healing, rinse, repeat).
Brittle Strike:
Capitalize to Brittle Strike.
Ability damage is just a bit low & scales a tad slowly.
Greater Icy Touch:
Capitalize ability name. I'm going to stop mentioning this, but apply it to every ability entry below.
Ice Ward:
That's not much damage reduction. 1/2 HD?
Create Spawn:
You state the Bleakborn raises any creature it kills, but then you imply it works on any creature that dies within the heat draining aura.
I wonder if the zombies will become kind of useless at a later level.
Ice Slick:
I don't like Prone as an easily applied condition. Especially as an area of effect easily applied condition. Especially when it uses a skill that most creatures won't have available. And you can use it constantly.
Greater Heat Draining Aura:
I'm wondering if the scaling on heat draining aura is too much.
Exclusion is ok... 12 free damage a round might be a bit much at 6th, though.
Frost Nova:
What kind of action is this?
Perhaps a little too hazardous to teammates.

I've fixed most of the pesentation stuff and made some other changes as well.

The bleakborn can make as many touch attacks as it could slam attacks with its Icy Touch
Heat draining aura requires creature worth XP for the fast healing effect to apply
Brittle strike damage now increases every 5HD rather than every seven
Ice ward's damage reduction has been increased
Create spawn's Prerequisites for animation have been cleared up.
Ice slick has been weakened considerably. It is now a reflex save or be unable to move, which can be avoided by moving at half speed.
Greater heat draining aura no longer increases damage.
Frost nova has been specified as a full round action and allows for ally exclusion just like greater heat draining aura. It has also been changed from uses per day to a 3d4 round cooldown time during which the bleakborn cannot use its heat draining aura.

The Winter King
2011-02-05, 06:16 PM
Jovoc (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9955384&postcount=425)
Str bonus to claw attacks?
How did I miss that? Fixed.

Should rename Body of Vengeance to Jovoc Body.
Done.

Second level is really boring. Only passive abilities.
Jovoc can now summon other demons.

Punishment Strike is rather over the top, given how fast it scales, and how easy it is to qualify to activate.
Made it similar to smite evil, if smite evil didnt suck.

Don't start sentences with And (as in Rapid Recovery)
Damn you grammar!!! Fixed.

Formatting error in Bloodclaws (14HD bonus isn't indented)
I hate formatting.

Retributive Aura:
The 'immune if your fort save is...' bit is kind of lame. It's a pain to check and track during battle ("Was that guy immune or not?")
I made it more like AC and attack rolls, basically all creatures have a Fort Class FC and the jovoc makes a difficulty roll to affect them. Yay no more bogging down combat,

"A creature s not subject to the aura" - missing an i there.
Sigh...:smallfrown:

What would your thoughts be on going up against a pair or trio of Jovoc with these class levels, from the perspective of a 5th/7th level PC? Scads of vile damage to your entire team any time you try to hurt it, more vile damage as they spend HP while attacking you. Vile Damage is, like disease, something that doesn't particularly hamper most monsters, while it does inconvenience PCs. I wonder how apt it is here.
Mostly true but Vile Damage cannot be healed by FH and ignores regeneration

Makiru
2011-02-05, 10:32 PM
Solamith (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9773475&postcount=1173)
Consider tweaking the starting languages, so there's less risk of a language barrier with fellow PCs. 3 is a bit much to start, especially when one isn't common.
This is the same as on the original monster, where I guess Telepathy was just supposed to be the catch-all against language issues. It should also be noted that not having Common starting out does have precedence with the Neraphim (PH), which is a basic race. However, we are making these classes to be enjoyable to play, so I'll probably switch a language to Common, most likely Draconic or Celestial, and remove the other one.

Why 2 damage per 2 HD when you could have 1 damage per HD? Just curious.
This is mostly a relic of the original write-up of the class that I just didn't feel needed to be changed. It's to keep the cost in line with the damage increases in soulfire.

Demon:
You start a sentence as "Plus telepathy..." - it reads kinda funny. Change so the sentences are complete sentences?
Ditto for "Also..."
I have a habit of unconsciously shortening things like that. Nice catch.

Infernal Summoning:
It's a little unclear how the progression of new summon monster spells works with the 'once per day' limit. When I gain 4th level in the class, do I have the ability to cast Summon Monster I 1/day and Summon Monster II 1/day? Or does one replace the other?
I copy/pasted the description from another demon Gorg pointed me to as the "chassis" for demonic abilities, so it might not just be this one that sounds strange. The higher level spell should just replace the lower one. I'll attempt to clear that up.

Soulfire Retort:
It's quite powerful, this. I'm not a fan of swift actions that deal damage. Perhaps make it a move action, so you retain the ability to use retort and make an attack/throw soulfire, without breaking the action economy? This would force a choice between an aggressive retaliatory attack and a more defensive move action.
The swift action part is lifted verbatim from the original monster, but it always sounded a bit strange in my mind the way it was worded. It does basically double its damage output per turn, but it still has to pay life costs to use Retort...at least it should. I'll check the book again and see what it said and abdicate from there.
OK, the original monster doesn't say it has to deal damage to itself to use the retort, so there's two ways I could take this: either keep it a swift action that it has to still pay for, but with no meta-fire abilities, or make it a move action with no additional costs. I think I'm leaning towards the latter in this case, mostly for the reason that you brought up.

Otherwise, looks good.

Thanks! I don't see any truly outstanding issues with the Marrash other than the lengthiness of the disease abilities, but that comes with the territory.

EDIT: Original post edited with changes.

Hyudra
2011-02-06, 12:36 AM
Everyone, take note that I've revised & cleaned up the Unfinished Monster post on the front page. I've split it into Unfinished & Abandoned content, erased the 'suggestions' column (as it was badly outdated & too much to keep up with) and listed my vote for several monsters. Gorgon is saying he'll give them critiques, so with luck, we'll be adding a half dozen monsters to the finished list in the coming week.

Gorgondantess
2011-02-06, 01:39 AM
I'll restate: any who wants me to critique their monsters, I have my various chat chumhandles on my profile. Pester me and I'll get on it.

Troll:
Furor looks good.
Mend Flesh... huh. Can this heal fire & acid damage?
Gnaw: really only ever useful- at all- against high DR enemies.
Rend: consider this with furor. He can just make 2 or 3 claw attacks as a standard action and get rend damage pretty much every time.
Tumescent recovery: this then applies to all sorts of supernatural abilities as well. Intentional? Also, do you need to activate it after or before you take the damage?
Anyways, I could see really odd uses of this where a troll activates this ability and sticks a torch in its face. I don't really get it.
Violent Onslaught: I find it a little odd that if, say, a troll had a bunch of ability score increases to the point of moving 200' per round, it'd still only be able to move 20'. Why not just make it full move speed? It's kindof an underwhelming capstone, as is.

Minotaur:
Headbutt: you say he gains additional distance for being larger than the target. How much distance?
Also, for being driven into obstacles: I think it'd be cool if, when driven into an obstacle, the DC is based on how far they would have gone further. Just a thought.
Natural Cunning: May want to add "instead of the other (attribute)." Had me confused for a few seconds.
Triumphant Bellow:...Huh.
Why not just limit the allies' benefits to half the minotaur's?
And for fallen allies... define fallen. In the shaky realms from -1 to -9 hp? Why even bother? Also, unconscious foes automatically fail saves.
Stampede: very nice.

Bleakborn:

A bleakborn who choses to male

This ability has a radius of up to 10ft per HD, though the bleakborn can chose
Brittle strike: what's the point of dexterity damage if you're not going to be able to render your enemy paralytic? Rather than increasing the damage by HD, increase uses, scrap the once per round, and as a capstone allow it with every melee attack. You'll be making few enough anyways, and hitting even less.
Ice ward: whoah. Needs rewording. "DR/- equal to half its HD."
Create spawn: first of all, might want to make it a little later. Second of all, this is one of the few instances a bonus feat is good.
Otherwise, looking pretty good!

Solamith:
I honestly see no reason why anyone would ever want to play this class.
Moving on.
Solamith is a Summon Monster VIII summon, not a summon monster IV summon. So... add it to Summon Monster VII?
Widen Soulfire: Cap it.
Foreign soulfire: make it willing ally or summon monster only.

Thorn:
Add dex-to-damage to weapon of thorns.

Those of fourth level have a strong enough connection to the faerie courts to do something about that.
This line always made me cringe. It would be fine without it entirely. Also, tense correction: empower, not "empowered".

Weapon of Barbs: This just needs some clarification. Can you enchant a weapon of thorns normally? If so, how does weapon of barbs stack with that? If the enhancement bonus does not stack, consider just making it a special ability.

Otherwise, looking very good.

Swarmshifter:
Eh, looks good. I can give this one my vote.

Gibbering Mouther:
As swarmshifter.

Pandorym:
Last post on the previous page.

Hyudra
2011-02-06, 01:56 AM
Added Gibbering Mouther and Swarmshifter to the master list. Grats, Betropper, TheGeckoking. I know we put you through the wringer, there.


Troll:
Furor looks good.
Mend Flesh... huh. Can this heal fire & acid damage?

It can - If I did have the restriction that it couldn't, it would mean having to keep track of fire/acid damage separately, which would get messy. The Fire/acid vulnerability is basically done through the 1d4 round delay before use.


Gnaw: really only ever useful- at all- against high DR enemies.
Rend: consider this with furor. He can just make 2 or 3 claw attacks as a standard action and get rend damage pretty much every time.

Any suggestions? As far as Gnaw goes, I could give it more of a bonus. For rend, I could replace the ability with something else, or make it contingent on not using Furor.


Tumescent recovery: this then applies to all sorts of supernatural abilities as well. Intentional? Also, do you need to activate it after or before you take the damage?

Intentional. You'd need to activate it before.


Anyways, I could see really odd uses of this where a troll activates this ability and sticks a torch in its face. I don't really get it.

I could replace it with something else. I think Zemro said it was kinda confusing. But just to clarify - I did stress that taking fire or acid damage ends the effect early, so the torch wouldn't work.


Violent Onslaught: I find it a little odd that if, say, a troll had a bunch of ability score increases to the point of moving 200' per round, it'd still only be able to move 20'. Why not just make it full move speed? It's kindof an underwhelming capstone, as is.

I may replace it. You're right that it's underwhelming.


Minotaur:
Headbutt: you say he gains additional distance for being larger than the target. How much distance?

It is stated, IIRC. You get a bonus +5'/-5' for each size category of difference. Just so there's less weirdness when headbutting an colossal opponent when you're medium.


Also, for being driven into obstacles: I think it'd be cool if, when driven into an obstacle, the DC is based on how far they would have gone further. Just a thought.

I'll see if I can work that in without making it bothersome to calculate.


Natural Cunning: May want to add "instead of the other (attribute)." Had me confused for a few seconds.

Sure.


Triumphant Bellow:...Huh.
Why not just limit the allies' benefits to half the minotaur's?

The intention was to do so. Bad wording on my part.


And for fallen allies... define fallen. In the shaky realms from -1 to -9 hp? Why even bother? Also, unconscious foes automatically fail saves.

I defined fallen in the bit with enemies. I'll clarify.

Zemro
2011-02-06, 02:07 AM
Thorn:
Add dex-to-damage to weapon of thorns.

This line always made me cringe. It would be fine without it entirely. Also, tense correction: empower, not "empowered".

Done.


Weapon of Barbs: This just needs some clarification. Can you enchant a weapon of thorns normally? If so, how does weapon of barbs stack with that? If the enhancement bonus does not stack, consider just making it a special ability.

Otherwise, looking very good.

Well, Weapon of Thorns notes that turning a normal weapon into a thorned one doesn't interfere with existing magical abilities. I've gone ahead and changed wording to hopefully clear things up. Let me know if I should clarify further.

As a side note, the link to Marrash on the monster list actually leads to the locathah.

EDIT:

I could replace it with something else. I think Zemro said it was kinda confusing. But just to clarify - I did stress that taking fire or acid damage ends the effect early, so the torch wouldn't work.

My interpretation of the ability is that it essentially functioned as a sort of damage reduction, though healing damage done rather then negating it. If the Troll stacked his Con high enough, he may come out ahead sometimes, but generally it seemed to me to take the bite out of hits, or come out better if he has to take a tumble down a cliff.

It's rather neat overall, a sort of perk ability that meshes well with the flavour.

Hyudra
2011-02-06, 02:55 AM
Feb 06, 2011 Changes to Minotaur:
Clarified the effect of size on headbutt distance.
Chance to daze when knocking enemies into obstacles is increased, based on how far they would've moved before they hit something.
Clarified that Natural Cunning stat merge (for lack of a better term) uses the better attribute, instead of the inferior attribute, where appropriate.
Clarified Triumphant Bellow, tidying it up quite a bit. Moved the mention of allies to the end, with a simple "allies within 30' of you get half the benefit you do" instead of constantly mentioning the half effect on allies.
Triumphant Bellow stabilize chance boosted to 10% (so allies get +5%, while the 10% probably isn't ever going to be used by the minotaur, f'real).
Clarified the 'fallen' bit as much as I was able, given how many interpretations of the term there are.

Feb 06, 2011, Changes to Troll:
Gnaw (which was a singular bite attack that did bonus damage equal to the target's total HD, penetrating DR) replaced with Chomp, a single bite attack that can deal potentially massive damage, which was the intent anyways. I'll put a cap on it next time I update the class.
Clarified what Immobilization does, under Thrash.
Leaving Rend, Tumescent Recovery and Violent Onslaught alone until I decide what to do with them.

I'm debating, for Tumescent Recovery, something far simpler, where for a duration, 1/day per 4HD, you can force every damage roll against you to be rerolled, taking the lower result.

Also considering a rage-esque ability for the capstone.

TheGeckoKing
2011-02-06, 10:05 AM
Pandorym: 1st level offers almost nothing. Let's look at what you lose:
10 feet less move speed than most classes.
No fine manipulation.
Terrible skills.
Bad hp.
Can't wear armor.
Can't use weapons.
And what you get:
The ability to keep up with every other race for 1 round.
A mediocre slam attack.
...Actually, by RAW, the class couldn't even get the move speed bonus until at least 3rd level (4th if you don't round up). And does the class not have a strength score? Why is bonus slam damage based on con?

Crystalline spray: scale? Scale!

Also, I'm not a fan of the BAB. Even psions use attack rolls once in a while, and I don't see why this fellow would be even worse than someone totally untrained in combat.

Ego whiplash: It's only at all decent if you can kill a creature by slamming its charisma into nothing. As is, that's nearly impossible. Smooth out the scaling, make it a little more regular, eh?

Manifestation of will: why can't you just say: "gains manifestation as a psion of a level equal to class level-3." At first to third level you could just say it has a PP reserve of 1 or 0, and gains bonus PP based on intelligence.
Speaking of ability scores, all the other stuff really should be charisma. It's the ability score that governs innate abilities. Beyond that, it's the actual pandorym's highest ability score.

Faint Sign of Binding: Very, very weak. DC is ridiculously low, especially for one that targets a skill check. Level 2 wizards should be able to pass it by rolling above a 3.

Corporealize: What's the duration? One would simply make as many as possible. Might as well just say "gain con mod pseudopods".

Bonus psionic feat: *smacks* NO BONUS FEAT! IZ LAZY!:smalltongue:
A good substitution would be to slap incorporeality on that level.

Moderate sign of binding: abusable. Especially because most casters will summon creatures similar to their own alignment.

3rd facet of mind: Um. It's a lot weaker than a single feat (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#psionicMeditation). Swift action?

Psionic Leech: does it affect every psion in the world, or does it have a range?

Strong Sign of Binding: was it meant to be versatile? I can imagine a clever pandorym using it as a buff, to make their non-casting allies immune to conjuration spells.
Also: probably a good idea to rewrite it so it is conjuration spells that allow SR.

A note on PLAs: due to their highly flexible nature and scaling by ML, you don't need to do much with them. Go ahead and use standard PLA DCs, and I wouldn't do instant augmentations like under 5th facet- whether it increases DC is muddy.

Psionic Vortex: Zam! Wow. A little powerful. It allows higher amounts of augmentation. Kindof a really super powerful capstone.

7th facet: underwhelming. Just a will save or die.

Righty-o, in order;

Pandorym
Yeah, 1st level is terribad. Will rectify.
The Crystalline Spray now scales
Yes, the BAB is atrocious. Have you heard of Pet Rock Fighting Rings?
Manifestation of Will was nerfed because i'm paranoid, but if you say so. Wis was a guess, but if Cha works better, meh.
Faint Sign has been buffed.
Corporealize has been given a duration, because i'm a silly gecko and forgot it.
Moderate Sign makes the summoned creatures go AWOL on the summoner now.
Lightning Mind has been ajusted.
Psionic Leech........I'm tempted to say yes, just to see your face :smalltongue:. Will rectify.
Strong Sign could be used as a Pseudo-Buff, I guess. No harm in that.
Turquoise Tyrant has been simplified, as you said.
Psionic Vortex is a bit powerful, but ya'know, 19th level without PRC'ing out should be rewarded, I guess.
7th Facet now heals you. It's a bonus. Everyone likes boni.

Now that Swarmshifter is up on the list, I feel like I can attempt.......The Epic Levels :smalleek:

Swarmshifter:
Yay!

Vivisector:
Can't see any outstanding edits needed, so unless you already have, could you have a look-y at it Gorgon?

Crafty Cultist
2011-02-06, 12:10 PM
Bleakborn:


Brittle strike: what's the point of dexterity damage if you're not going to be able to render your enemy paralytic? Rather than increasing the damage by HD, increase uses, scrap the once per round, and as a capstone allow it with every melee attack. You'll be making few enough anyways, and hitting even less.
Ice ward: whoah. Needs rewording. "DR/- equal to half its HD."
Create spawn: first of all, might want to make it a little later. Second of all, this is one of the few instances a bonus feat is good.
Otherwise, looking pretty good!

Spelling errors fixed, brittle strike changed, ice ward reworded and Create spawn moved to level six

Hyudra
2011-02-06, 12:45 PM
Marrash (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10308045&postcount=324)
First level is a little dry. You get some flight and Marrash Body with some innate benefits, but you can't really do anything at that point.
Rename Body of Disease to Marrash Body? Having something nonspecific like Body of Disease creates confusion if another monster uses the same ability name, and you gestalt, for example.
Plagued Movement:
"While it posses wings" -> should be While it possesses wings."
"but their maneuverability increase to good at 10HD." -> should be "but their maneuverability increases to good at 10HD."
Personally, while it's technically fine, I'd prefer to see Flight as a separate ability at 5th level, rather than be granted with scaling for a 1 level dip.
Disease Carrier:
"Marrashi of second level have, through training and exposure to disease managed to adapt their immunity to diseases." -> need an comma after the first disease there.
"plus an aditional strain for every 5 points" -> additional.
"Multiple instances of the same disease do not stack, instead each one tracks its strains" -> Should be Multiple instances of the same disease do not stack. Instead..."
"Instead each one tracks its strains" -> what does "each one" refer to?
"Thus a Marrash with 16 constitution could have filth feaver twice and mummy rot once" -> fever
"and not be able to trap any more diseases." - what if I want to replace an old, retained disease with a newly acquired one?
"the caster must immedietly make" -> immediately.
"Whenever he deals damage with his claw or talon attacks" -> change 'he' to 'the Marrash'.
"This DC is equal to the higher of the disease's base DC or 10 + half the Marrash's HD + constitution modifier" - just make it 10 + 1/2 HD + con mod.
"but continues to use the DC it rolled against to contract it." - why?
"each attempt at infection lowers the amount of held strains by one for that disease." - this sounds like an incredible pain in the arse. How many sources of disease are there, really? Disease isn't that useful to a PC, so you're effectively building a slightly tougher melee warlock that trades away invocations for diseases that are less effective & harder to keep a decent storage of.
"his body immedietly discharges" -> immediately.
Disease Sense:
"allowing them to be aware of contaminated creatures and objects nearby. His senses" - you change focus here, from plural to singular. Them, their, all Marrashi to 'His'.
"and the number of contaminated subjects within 30ft plus an aditional 5ft for every point that the disease's DC exceedes 10." -> sounds like a right pain to keep track of.
"plus an aditional 5ft" -> additional.
"but cannot pinpoint position exactly unless within 5ft" -> missing a word/words. "but cannot pinpoint the victim's position exactly unless they are within 5'.
Why can't he pinpoint their position exactly? It's like an inferior scent.
"percieve disease for 1 round..." -> perceive.
"he must wait five minutes before soing so again." -> doing so.
Intensify Infection:
I don't know that I like it being a swift action, but can live with it.
I dont' like per-encounter abilities either.
"Regardless of the diseases save DC, this save an all future ones against" -> disease's, and all future ones.
"by the target" -> unnecessary. Delete.
"This ability also allows a Marrash to grow adition strains of diseases he has trapped. Once per day a Marrash can add an aditional strain to every disease he's carrying." -> additional, for both. Far too little, as far as ability to replenish disease stock.
Draw Disease:
"they may be carring into himself." -> carrying.
"He makes a saving throw against the diseases DC" -> delete all mention of this. Use a standard DC, as determined by Marrash HD/con mod. Using the disease's DC will just make for a lot of bookkeeping and diseases that are too lame/too powerful for your level.
"or loose possestion of " -> lose, possession.
Archer's Presence:
"spike dchain" -> spiked chain.
"This aditional training " -> additional
Afflictive Ammunition:
"diease he's carrying to infect and arrow or crossbow bolt" - disease, an.
"damages a creature it immediate makes a save against" -> immediately.
"Alternately when someone not immune to disease handles in infected piece of ammunition" - an
Double Bowfire:
"The pinnacle of Marrahi bowsmanship" -> Marrashi?
"aditional" -> additional
With every attack? Attacks of opportunity? Maneuvers?
Takliff Curse:
Kind of underwhelming as a capstone. It's a disease with no effects, that can affect disease immune foes, preventing resurrection & turning dead enemies into disease immune (which is your whole schtick) Marrashi with a grudge against you?

Overall, kind of weak. It's far too hard to get diseases, and too easy to spend them, provided you want to do anything with your class features. I mean, assuming 13.3 encounters a level, how many of those encounters feature foes with disease attacks? Now weigh that against the fact that you've then got to hit them or get them to hit you, to take in the disease. That gets you one use, which you may well spend in a subsequent encounter...

Which might be worth it if diseases were worthwhile, but they aren't. You can shorten the incubation period, which makes it ability damage with potential saving throws to cancel it (compare to other creatures in this project who deal ability damage in a very matter of fact way with their attacks).

To plug my own work, consider looking at Gravetouched Ghoul. There's a list of disease buffs the Ghoul could pick from under Ghoul Fever, that might suit the Marrash.

Beyond that, there's the element of passivity. The Marrash doesn't do a whole lot, beyond attack & occasionally receive/transfer diseases, or add an extra arrow in there somewhere.

TheGeckoKing
2011-02-06, 02:26 PM
Pandorym's Epic Levels are now up. Yes, it gets to turn into a floating Sphere of Annihilation at Level 21. This is intended. So, without much more, Cry Cthulhu, and let slip the Hounds of Eldritch!

Hazzardevil
2011-02-06, 04:18 PM
Heres my Horned Devil Class

Horned Devil
{table=head]Level|Base Attack<br>Bonus|Worst Save|Middle Save|Best Save|Special

1st|
1|
0|
1|
2|Horned devil body, hellish Inheritence

2nd|
2|
0|
2|
3|+1 cha, Fear Aura, Growth

3rd|
3|
1|
2|
3|+1 str, Tail

4th|
4|
1|
3|
4|+1 con, Stun

5th|
5|
2|
3|
4|+1 str and cha

6th|
6|
2|
4|
5l+1 cha and con

7th|
7|
3|
4|
5|+1 str and con

8th|
8|
3|
5|
6|+1 str, con, cha

9th|
9|
4|
5|
6|Class Ability

10th|
10|
4|
6|
7|Class Ability

Traits
An outsider possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry).

Darkvision out to 20 feet.
Unlike most other living creatures, an outsider does not have a dual nature; its soul and body form one unit. When an outsider is slain, no soul is set loose. Spells that restore souls to their bodies, such as raise dead, reincarnate, and resurrection, don’t work on an outsider. It takes a different magical effect, such as limited wish, wish, miracle, or true resurrection to restore it to lifeOutsiders breathe, but do not need to eat or sleep (although they can do so if they wish). Native outsiders breathe, eat, and sleep.

Weapon and armor profiency:
A horned Devil is proficent with all simple weapons, a number of martial weapons equal to it's HD, a spiked chain and all it's natural weapons.

Horned devil body:
A horned Devil has 20 ft movement ground speed and 50 ft fly speed(Average) A horned Devil also casts dispel and magic circle against good (DC 10+cha mod + half HD and chaos a number of times per day equal to it's HD. At 10 HD it may cast these at will.

hellish Inheritence:
At first level the horned devil chooses which of its saves it wants to become good. It also chooses which of its saves it wants to be average and which it wants to become poor.

At 2nd level a horned devil gains Powerful build.

Fear Aura:
At 3rd level a Horn Devil can radiate a 5-foot radius fear aura as a free action.
A creature in the aura must make a DC 15+ 1/2 Hd + Cha modifier or be affected as a fear spell. (CL 15.) A creature that makes this save cannot be affected again untill the sun sets.


Tail
Stun


I'll finish this later.

Makiru
2011-02-06, 04:36 PM
Solamith:
I honestly see no reason why anyone would ever want to play this class.
Ouch.
Moving on.
Solamith is a Summon Monster VIII summon, not a summon monster IV summon. So... add it to Summon Monster VII?
Easily fixable.
Widen Soulfire: Cap it.
Probably a number of times equal to 1/2 HD or something
Foreign soulfire: make it willing ally or summon monster only.
willing ally


I think after this round of changes, I'll stop messing around with the solamith. If anybody wants to adopt it after that, they are more than welcome to.

bladesmith
2011-02-06, 05:07 PM
Hey, Hazzardevil, your Horned Devil table is all messed up, has class abilities for a Scarrow, which as far as I can tell, is a 4th edition monster. I is confused.

Hyudra
2011-02-06, 05:09 PM
And seriously, if you're going to work on a class in bits & pieces, it might be a good idea to just PM your work to yourself, or at the very least, spoiler your work.

In any event, someone already did the Horned Devil. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9201680&postcount=1446)

bladesmith
2011-02-06, 06:09 PM
Thoughts on the Cloaker:
1) Just looking at the table, I can tell that this is going to be an odd class. It has the HD, BAB, saves, and skills of a pseudo-caster, but while it does have a lot of spell-type abilities, it also is big on grappling, and holding down its victims. Should be interesting.
One other thing you might want to do, though, is list out the ability score bonuses in its own section. Though you may want to think on those ability score adjustments, too. They seem rather... Varied and large for a 5 level class.
2) Cloaker Body is all kinds of fun. You aren't fast, but you have a climb speed, and the ability to be worn as clothing. And you eat cloaks for the people that wear you. Interesting adaption to give people an incentive to wear you. The only problem I can see with that is when you decide to fly off on your own, and leave your buddy without their magic cloak. Just a little awkward.
Also, if you get a chance, perhaps instead of them being "treated as though they had a base land speed of 30 ft for the purposes of using the jump skill", instead they can "ignore speed penalties to the Jump skill". Slightly more concise.
3) I was going to say something about Engulf being a little useless with it not working on creatures it's size, but that is fixed at 3rd level. Also, I like that you gave the bite a +4 on the attack, seeing its already at a -5 for being secondary(and no chance for multiattack) and I believe a -2 for being in grapple.
4) Just one thing you might want to clarify on engulfing leap, but if it is like a charge, do you have to move in a straight line? Also, if that is the case, can you charge through an ally's space by flying over them? Stuff like that would be good to mention in the entry.
5) Cloak is all kinds of useful, but some of the parts of it don't make as much sense, or require a little discrimination. Like the part where you can fly with the person wearing the Cloaker. Does this work even if the person is to heavy to be carried? Also, why can't it be spotted with Spot? When you see eyes and a mouth on someone's cloak, do you really have to know that it is a Cloaker to know that it isn't a cloak? If that makes any sense... Eh, that last bit isn't such a huge deal.
6) Huh, the only thing about Shadow Shift that strikes me as odd is that you let the Cloaker have Mirror Image at will at 12 HD, while the pattern would indicate the at will would come at 15 HD. Also, in Obscure Vision and Mirror Image, could you modify the wording, so that it reads something like: "any creature wearing the Cloaker as a cloak", or something.
7) Obscure Features= Cool.
8) Improved Engulf is quite useful. One problem I can see is where you make iterative attacks with a secondary attack, which already has a -5. Kind of odd.
9) "cloaker through cloak"? Could you please make this read a little easier. Also, I think it is customary to capitalize the class name every time it is used. I think. Still, Mutual Defenses is interesting, and gives the squishy characters one more reason to wear the Cloaker.
10) Flight is straightforward.
11) Huh... Moan could get interesting. First of all, it states that "anyone" in the area is affected. Does this include allies? If so, are there ways for your allies to give themselves a better chance to avoid the consequences? Stuff cotton in their ears? Also, good move not letting them have Hold Monster till 9HD. Of course, by that point, Fear and Nausea are becoming a lot less useful, as things are getting immunities to match.

All in all, a really interesting, very odd class. A rather eclectic mix of abilities, and a lot of things to boost other members of the party. That last part may be the biggest worry, though, is how much is dependent on someone wearing the Cloaker. A Cloaker's player will probably be willing enough to just ride around outside of combat, but its going to want to jump around and engulf people once things get going.

Gorgondantess
2011-02-06, 06:38 PM
Any suggestions? As far as Gnaw goes, I could give it more of a bonus. [/quote[
Just removing the secondary natural attack penalty for the purposes of gnaw would go a looooong way.

[quote]For rend, I could replace the ability with something else, or make it contingent on not using Furor.
The latter.


I could replace it with something else. I think Zemro said it was kinda confusing. But just to clarify - I did stress that taking fire or acid damage ends the effect early, so the torch wouldn't work.
Fine then, tossing boulders into the air and letting them land on its face.:smalltongue:
Anyways, yeah, it needs an overhaul. It's just kindof messy and weird. Keep the same spirit, though, that's fine.



I may replace it. You're right that it's underwhelming.
Well, mainly just the short range is underwhelming. Just letting it move its land speed and maybe removing the penalty when using a claw would be great- I can imagine doing some pretty massive damage after an expeditious retreat spell.



It is stated, IIRC. You get a bonus +5'/-5' for each size category of difference. Just so there's less weirdness when headbutting an colossal opponent when you're medium.
Rightio.


Yes, the BAB is atrocious. Have you heard of Pet Rock Fighting Rings?
No, and I don't really care. It has no right to have that low BAB.


Manifestation of Will was nerfed because i'm paranoid, but if you say so. Wis was a guess, but if Cha works better, meh.

No, no. Scrap the table! It has no point! Keep the 3 disciplines.


Psionic Vortex is a bit powerful, but ya'know, 19th level without PRC'ing out should be rewarded, I guess.
I have never once found someone who understands the fundamental design philosophy behind psionics. Everyone just treats it as another caster, when it's anything but. Yes, they achieve nigh identical results... but the way they go about doing so is drastically, radically different.
PrCing out of Pandorym is perhaps one of the worst choices one could ever make. Arcane casting PrCs are a no brainer, but psionics was designed so that you only PrC if you want to get into something specific- if you just want a powerful caster, you go psion 20. Psionic PrCs, 95% of the time, lose at least one manifester level, which would bar the Pandorym from getting 9th level powers. And even for the ones that only lose one manifester level, they aren't getting anything nearly so powerful as Psionic Vortex. Hell, even without psionic vortex there's not much competition. Not only does it allow for more powers per day, more importantly it allows for greater augmentation.
So, remove it.

Solamith:

I honestly see no reason why anyone would ever want to play this class.
Ouch.
I more meant, I see no reason why anyone would want to be a solamith. Not saying the class is bad, I'm saying it's a thoroughly unpleasant and pretty lame monster for a PC.:smallredface:

Lord_Gareth
2011-02-06, 08:11 PM
I more meant, I see no reason why anyone would want to be a solamith. Not saying the class is bad, I'm saying it's a thoroughly unpleasant and pretty lame monster for a PC.:smallredface:

Speak for yourself; I love the Solaminth, and it holds a special place in my player's hearts. The one where they go, "Gareth, I hate you so much right now."

Makiru
2011-02-07, 01:21 AM
I more meant, I see no reason why anyone would want to be a solamith. Not saying the class is bad, I'm saying it's a thoroughly unpleasant and pretty lame monster for a PC.:smallredface:

I figured that's what you meant. I know the monster is a bit of a one-trick pony and doesn't have too much else going for it. Also, at this point, I'm not doing any major work on it (just suggestions from others), so I think I've probably gotten as far with it as I can. Like I said before, if someone really has the desire to take a stab at it, completely rework it, what-have-you, go for it. I bear no ill will and would almost be happy to see a fresh take on it.

Finally, I kinda said that to stop picking at it and focus on the garngrath and get that up before the end of the month (he said, hopefully...).

If I was trying to make drama, I would tell you that I was making drama. This isn't it.

EDIT: ...Oh, you meant because it's a big fatty fat! I feel dumb for not catching that before writing that big, stupid, sadsack pseudo-speech.

TheGeckoKing
2011-02-07, 11:09 AM
Rightio.


No, and I don't really care. It has no right to have that low BAB.
It's a block of crystal. What's it supposed to do other than ram into people, shine on them?

No, no. Scrap the table! It has no point! Keep the 3 disciplines.
Well, it doesn't hurt to have the table. Limited disciplines have been re-added

I have never once found someone who understands the fundamental design philosophy behind psionics. Everyone just treats it as another caster, when it's anything but. Yes, they achieve nigh identical results... but the way they go about doing so is drastically, radically different.
PrCing out of Pandorym is perhaps one of the worst choices one could ever make. Arcane casting PrCs are a no brainer, but psionics was designed so that you only PrC if you want to get into something specific- if you just want a powerful caster, you go psion 20. Psionic PrCs, 95% of the time, lose at least one manifester level, which would bar the Pandorym from getting 9th level powers. And even for the ones that only lose one manifester level, they aren't getting anything nearly so powerful as Psionic Vortex. Hell, even without psionic vortex there's not much competition. Not only does it allow for more powers per day, more importantly it allows for greater augmentation.
So, remove it.

Earth Power does it for one feat, doesn't take 19 levels, and Pandorym can't use it because it floats over earth and needs to touch it to gain the effect. Big whoop.


Replies in bold.

Gorgondantess
2011-02-07, 01:36 PM
It's a block of crystal. What's it supposed to do other than ram into people, shine on them?
No, it's supposed to be able to reliably shoot a ray of disintegration at them.


Well, it doesn't hurt to have the table. Limited disciplines have been re-added
Yes, it does. It's confusing. On the one hand you're saying it manifests powers as a psion, on the other you have a table that very clearly shows it does not manifest powers as a psion.
Also, I really wouldn't do the 3 disciplines thing, actually... that's probably better than any psion power selection, because the best powers of any level are always discipline specific.


Earth Power does it for one feat, doesn't take 19 levels, and Pandorym can't use it because it floats over earth and needs to touch it to gain the effect. Big whoop.
Earth power also requires constant psionic focus, technically 2 feats, and requires you to be standing on "stone or unworked earth", which is situational and often a bad move when you really should be flying. It's also a very powerful feat.

TheGeckoKing
2011-02-07, 02:14 PM
No, it's supposed to be able to reliably shoot a ray of disintegration at them.

How can it do that when it's essentially in a crystalline straightjacket?

Yes, it does. It's confusing. On the one hand you're saying it manifests powers as a psion, on the other you have a table that very clearly shows it does not manifest powers as a psion.
Also, I really wouldn't do the 3 disciplines thing, actually... that's probably better than any psion power selection, because the best powers of any level are always discipline specific.

Well, now it gets its very own wall of text, complete with the line saying "It may only learn powers from the Psion Power List (Not including Specialist Psion Lists). Problem solved.

Earth power also requires constant psionic focus, technically 2 feats, and requires you to be standing on "stone or unworked earth", which is situational and often a bad move when you really should be flying. It's also a very powerful feat.

It's at Lv19. If I was being braindead and gave it at 10th level or something, then yeah, shout at me. But I hardly think 1pp less is going to break the game when 9th level spells/manuvers/+5 Greatswords of Uberness are being swung around. I can nerf it slightly, though.

Again, replies in bold.

Hazzardevil
2011-02-07, 03:06 PM
Hey, Hazzardevil, your Horned Devil table is all messed up, has class abilities for a Scarrow, which as far as I can tell, is a 4th edition monster. I is confused.


And seriously, if you're going to work on a class in bits & pieces, it might be a good idea to just PM your work to yourself, or at the very least, spoiler your work.

In any event, someone already did the Horned Devil. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9201680&postcount=1446)

It didn't occur to me to PM it to myself so I could work on it in bits and pieces, I didn't see that horned devil before and to be honest it isn't what I think a horned devil should be.

The scorrow isn't a 4e monster, it's a drow/scorpoion hybrid in eberron which is very similer to the scorpionfolk, I don't know what the difference is suppose to be apart from teh scorrow is part drow.
I've given up on teh scorrow now, I've decided to try the horned devil instead.

Mystic Muse
2011-02-07, 03:21 PM
It's a bad idea to do the horned devil unless the council has said it needs to be overhauled.

Gorgondantess
2011-02-07, 03:24 PM
It didn't occur to me to PM it to myself so I could work on it in bits and pieces, I didn't see that horned devil before and to be honest it isn't what I think a horned devil should be.

In that case, you should either take that up with the horned devil's creator or start your own thread. It's kindof rude to just come in here and say "Yo, I think your monster isn't right so I'ma make my own, kthx."


How can it do that when it's essentially in a crystalline straightjacket?
What do you mean? It can get psionic disintegrate. It's not like it's incapable of using its vast mental powers to direct a beam that's created using its vast mental powers.
BAB doesn't mean melee combat skill, or even physical combat skill- it means the ability to direct an attack.


Well, now it gets its very own wall of text, complete with the line saying "It may only learn powers from the Psion Power List (Not including Specialist Psion Lists). Problem solved.
Eh, I suppose that works. You're really attached to your table, aren't you?:smalltongue:


It's at Lv19. If I was being braindead and gave it at 10th level or something, then yeah, shout at me. But I hardly think 1pp less is going to break the game when 9th level spells/manuvers/+5 Greatswords of Uberness are being swung around. I can nerf it slightly, though.
It doesn't stack with any other power point cost reducers? What other power point cost reducers? The only ones I can think of are gained through class levels.:smallconfused:
Anyways, the point is it gets that on top of everything else. No, it doesn't break the game alone, but with all of the Pandorym's other abilities I think it's a bit too much.
Anyways, a quick fix would be to state that then all powers can be augmented to a max of the Pandorym's ML-1, to balance with the power point cost reduction.


I figured that's what you meant. I know the monster is a bit of a one-trick pony and doesn't have too much else going for it. Also, at this point, I'm not doing any major work on it (just suggestions from others), so I think I've probably gotten as far with it as I can. Like I said before, if someone really has the desire to take a stab at it, completely rework it, what-have-you, go for it. I bear no ill will and would almost be happy to see a fresh take on it.
Well... it's pretty much done. Just bear with me for one more critique, tops?

TheGeckoKing
2011-02-07, 04:10 PM
Ya'know what, it's too late in the night to argue about this stuff, so i'm going to just give Pandorym so many uses per day with Psionic Vortex. Plus, I know how to fix this BAB nonsense thanks to what you just said, so, one moment please *Music*

Makiru
2011-02-07, 07:58 PM
Well... it's pretty much done. Just bear with me for one more critique, tops?

Well, that I can more than do. I'm not going to really be off the project unless someone else wants to mess with it. It's kinda been my deformed brainchild for the past thread or two, and as much as I really want to move on, I want to see it done, too.

Magicyop
2011-02-08, 08:44 AM
Hi everyone-- I'm back!

I'm glad to see Hyudra took over editing the index while I was gone, and I apologize for kind of leaving these forums without warning. The last month and a half, especially since the holidays, has been crazy hectic. I couldn't really afford to come on here, since if I start, I'll get sucked in again. Now things are simmering down a *little* bit and I figured I'd come back. Glad to see the project is still thriving, this is the one thing I was really, really nervous about having to leave while I took my hiatus from GiantITP.

I'm not sure if you'd still like me on the council-- a lot has flown by. I'd be happy to stay there, or just as happy to keep working on monsters and step down, since my hiatus.

In any case, if you could please move my monsters from the abandoned list to the unfinished list, that'd be great. I've got the Living Spell (Ack, I'd like to finally get that thing finished, considering how long that particular monster has been unfinished), the Animated Object (I personally like the method of choice it has now), the Yellow Musk Creeper, and the "Wendigo" (put in quotes because it's not my monster. As I have no clue about the original creator's intentions, I'll simply make any change that you all suggest, flat out.)

So, I'm back, and I'm sorry for having to leave for such an extended period of time. Keep up the great monster making work!

Markus Darkmind
2011-02-08, 08:51 AM
Corrupted Creature
Prestige/Template Monster Class
Book of Vile Darkness
http://th05.deviantart.com/fs21/300W/f/2007/251/1/5/Lascer_by_nJoo.jpg

Prerequisites: To become a Corrupted Creature, a player must fulfill the following requirements:

• Any creature type but outsider.
• 5 or more HD.
• Must possess at least one Natural Weapon*.
• Must have been exposed to an evil influence of terrible strength; examples include an act of genocide, the birth of a evil god, or the death of a powerful good demigod or hero.

*: For creatures which don’t possess a natural weapon, the DM should consider adding Willing Deformity: Claws as a bonus feat to the creature, given the great extent of the evil that tainted it.

HD: D8
{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Class Features

1st|
+1|
+2|
+0|
+0|Corrupted Body, Dark Power, +1 Str, +1 Con

2nd|
+2|
+3|
+0|
+0|Greater Form of Darkness, +1 Str, +1 Con

3rd|
+3|
+3|
+1|
+1|Enhanced Power +1 Str, +1 Con[/table]
Skill Points: 2+Int per level
Class Skills: Same as the Base Creature plus Intimidate (Cha).

Proficiencies: Corrupted Creatures are proficient with their natural weapons and natural armor.

Corrupted Body: The appearance of a Corrupted Creature misshapes and twists in aberrant ways, an evidence of the darkness influence over it. Common changes include mottled, discoloured flesh, and reddish eyes. Unlike other monster classes, the creature's original racial traits are retained. The Corrupted Creature becomes an Aberration, gaining all the associated traits. Also, as its flesh becomes more strong and resilient, the Corrupted Creature gains a choice of natural armor equal to its Constitution modifier, or having any pre-existing natural armor change to use Con and gaining a flat +2 bonus to it.

Ability Score Increases: The Corrupted Creature gains +1 Str, +1 Con at every level, totalling at +3 Str, +3 Con over 3 levels.

Dark Power: The great evil responsible for the corruption imposes its mark on the corrupted Creature. At first level, it gains a bonus damage to its natural attacks equal to 1/4 of its HD, rounded up. This bonus damage is Vile damage. Also, the creature gains Elemental Resistance 5 per 5 HD to a single energy type, chosen at its creation (usually one connected to the source of the corruption, if possible).

Greater Form of Darkness: At second level, the body of the Corrupted Creature transcends its mortal limits, becoming more and more similar to the dark power that damned it. It gains Damage Reduction equal to ½ HD/magic, which eventually changes to ½ HD/magic and good at 10 HD. It also gains Fast Healing equal to ¼ of its HD, rounded down.

Enhanced power: At third level, the spirit of the Corrupted Creature accepts the Darkness that changed its body and draws greater power from it. It gains a profane bonus to all of its save DCs for its special attacks equal to the bonus damage from its Dark Power Ability. Also, it chooses and gains a single spell like ability usable once per day per 4 HD. The spell chosen must have the evil descriptor and a level no greater than ¼ the creature HD, minimum 0. It can be swapped for a more powerful one as soon as the next level of spell becomes available through this ability (meaning it can’t be changed if the creature merely gains levels in a caster class that has access to that spell level sooner).Comments
Here's my first attempt at a monster class. I used the Gravetouched Ghoul as a Base for wording and stuff, as I hoped it would be easier to reduce the amount of grammar mistakes that way (English is not my primary language).
The Corrupted Creature is one of my personal favourite, I tried to add more or less all of its abilities so it may be a little over the top. I tried to nerf them, of course.
I added the spell like ability at thrid level as not every creature has got special attacks with a Save DC and I didn't want to make a useless capstone...

Lix Lorn
2011-02-08, 09:10 AM
Does it not have an 'evil' prereq?
Typo of Con as 'cos' at third level in the table.
Should be 'more and more' in Greater Form of Darkness.

Overall, it looks pretty strong, but not too strong. I think. I'm not sure about the prereqs, as is it's enterable at level 2. Possibly 1 if you put an event in your backstory.

Oh, also, it might be easier just to say for Proficiences: 'Gains no new armour or weapon proficiencies.'

Markus Darkmind
2011-02-08, 09:30 AM
Thanks for the critique!


Does it not have an 'evil' prereq?

I thought about it, but in the manual it says you can be corrupted for simply being present on the site of great evil events, so I think it's rather in the hand of the DM to decide how that should influence your alignement. It could be a forced change, after all.


Typo of Con as 'cos' at third level in the table.
Should be 'more and more' in Greater Form of Darkness.

Thanks for the catch.


Overall, it looks pretty strong, but not too strong. I think. I'm not sure about the prereqs, as is it's enterable at level 2. Possibly 1 if you put an event in your backstory.

I see. Maybe a limit on the HD is in order... Something like Prerequisites: 5 or more HD?


Oh, also, it might be easier just to say for Proficiences: 'Gains no new armour or weapon proficiencies.'

It may be, but I took that directly from Hyudra's Gravetouched Ghoul, so I'll wait for her reply on that.

Lix Lorn
2011-02-08, 09:57 AM
Oh good. I hate alignment prereqs, but this seemed like a relevant place to at least check. xD

5HD makes sense... that said, it would be fine for lower than that for the DM. xD Yeah, 5+HD.

...hmm. Maybe Hyudra knows something I don't know, but... Natural Armour doesn't need proficiency of any kind. :smallconfused:

Hyudra
2011-02-08, 10:06 AM
Hi everyone-- I'm back!

I'm glad to see Hyudra took over editing the index while I was gone, and I apologize for kind of leaving these forums without warning. The last month and a half, especially since the holidays, has been crazy hectic. I couldn't really afford to come on here, since if I start, I'll get sucked in again. Now things are simmering down a *little* bit and I figured I'd come back. Glad to see the project is still thriving, this is the one thing I was really, really nervous about having to leave while I took my hiatus from GiantITP.

I'm not sure if you'd still like me on the council-- a lot has flown by. I'd be happy to stay there, or just as happy to keep working on monsters and step down, since my hiatus.

In any case, if you could please move my monsters from the abandoned list to the unfinished list, that'd be great. I've got the Living Spell (Ack, I'd like to finally get that thing finished, considering how long that particular monster has been unfinished), the Animated Object (I personally like the method of choice it has now), the Yellow Musk Creeper, and the "Wendigo" (put in quotes because it's not my monster. As I have no clue about the original creator's intentions, I'll simply make any change that you all suggest, flat out.)

So, I'm back, and I'm sorry for having to leave for such an extended period of time. Keep up the great monster making work!

Well, can't really complain, as I did take a leave of absence on my own for much the same reasons. That said, my only responsibility at the time was the Purple Worm.

For now, rather than get overwhelmed with both council duties and the backlog of monsters (both ones you created and ones that've been made in your absence), why don't you just relax as far as the council goes and focus on finishing up your monsters & critiquing the monsters of others?


It may be, but I took that directly from Hyudra's Gravetouched Ghoul, so I'll wait for her reply on that.

It's technically fine to state it that way, but a little outdated/awkward. I often just go for "The XXXX is proficient only with its own natural attacks." -- as (opposed to a negative "You get nothing!"), it implies the creature has natural attacks to fall back on and isn't completely helpless. In any event, I wouldn't stress.

I agree that the Corrupted Creature needs the 5HD prereq, and I'd also ask that you put the body of the text inside spoilers (everything from just above Prereqs to the comments).

My main complaint of the creature is that it isn't exciting, and it isn't terribly flavorful. Take away the prereq and the vile typing on the bonus damage and it doesn't really sell the corrupted nature.

Markus Darkmind
2011-02-08, 10:19 AM
Apologize for the pronoun... I forgot to check :smalleek:


It's technically fine to state it that way, but a little outdated/awkward. I often just go for "The XXXX is proficient only with its own natural attacks." -- as (opposed to a negative "You get nothing!"), it implies the creature has natural attacks to fall back on and isn't completely helpless. In any event, I wouldn't stress.

Thanks, will do.


I agree that the Corrupted Creature needs the 5HD prereq, and I'd also ask that you put the body of the text inside spoilers (everything from just above Prereqs to the comments).

Same here.


My main complaint of the creature is that it isn't exciting, and it isn't terribly flavorful. Take away the prereq and the vile typing on the bonus damage and it doesn't really sell the corrupted nature.

Mh, I see. That could indeed be. I'm of course open for suggestions on the matter. A way to solve that would be to make unique abilities for each kind of corruption, like abyssal, infernal, and alien ones...

Lix Lorn
2011-02-08, 10:29 AM
Oooh, maybe give it the ability to pass the corruption on!
Hyudra's a girl? Who knew.

Hyudra
2011-02-08, 10:53 AM
Mh, I see. That could indeed be. I'm of course open for suggestions on the matter. A way to solve that would be to make unique abilities for each kind of corruption, like abyssal, infernal, and alien ones...

I wouldn't go that route, as it makes for some headaches. If you're keen on offering options (and options are good), then consider just having a variety of standard 'corrupted' abilities, without trying to classify them.

Ultimately though, what is your creature offering? I'm not talking about mechanical benefit, but more about playstyle. Why do I choose to take Corrupted Creature over class levels in something else? If I take rogue, I get skill points and sneak attack dice to favor an ambush oriented or flanking based playstyle. If I take Corrupted Creature I get some bonus damage on attacks, an SLA, DR and FH: something I could readily get elsewhere. The benefits are ok in general, but they're just very very general. The class doesn't promote a role, and doesn't do anything special as far as encouraging a preexisting role (as bard levels might for a harpy, or barbarian levels for a Minotaur).

In short, what is the Corrupted Creature going to do with itself, over the course of the game? 3 levels is about 40 encounters, going by standard numbers. That's not a short span of time, to dedicate to taking the full levels in the class.

Now, I'll readily admit, one could say I made the same mistake in the design of the Creature of Legend... but there was a concept at work there. To be specific, I was offering a stopgap measure to shore up the weaknesses that tend to plague monsters at higher levels. Inability to penetrate DRs, lack of resilience and lack of stopping power.

So, getting back to the corrupted creature, why would I take it? Pretend I'm (or everyone critiquing is) a player with a 5th level monster class, and they're debating taking levels in Corrupted Creature. Convince us and get us excited about getting those Corrupted Creature levels. Sell us the idea of the creature, and the idea of becoming really good at doing [fill in the blank].

Therein lies the trick.

Markus Darkmind
2011-02-08, 11:34 AM
Mmm... Which role should I choose, then?
The template as written, seems to benefit more meele oriented monsters, given the original one had a penalty on Dex, Wis and Cha. The vile damage also follows that logic, while the bonus to save DCs could greatly benefit spellcasters. A gish, maybe?

NineThePuma
2011-02-08, 11:41 AM
Hyudra's a girl? Who knew.

Would help if she listed that on her profile, huh?

Corrupted creature seems alright. It has a solid theme. I would, however, recommend that you drop the natural weapons requirement, and instead grant some at level 1. Given that you make a suggestion to have DMs grant a bonus feat to that effect, it seems reasonable.

Hyudra
2011-02-08, 12:30 PM
Well, your options are:
A melee monster. Complementing melee abilities.
A martial monster, complementing melee and ranged abilities.
You could offer options for every conceivable role, by virtue of having a long list of corrupted options the player could draw from.
You could make it a gish, which is pretty flexible.

The trouble with gishes is that they're rather hard to make. Hybrid classes (those that have multiple roles, in one fashion or another) are very tricky to do well. I'm not a bad homebrewer, and I tried it with the Storm Giant. It was flavorful, but I don't know it's my best monster, so I'm sitting on it for a while, to think about what changes to put into effect.

When you think of a corrupted creature, what do you think? Without getting into mechanics, when you picture one in a party, what is it doing? How is it interacting? Is it leading the group or lurking in the back? Is it interacting with NPCs or staying out of sight? In combat, is it in the back lines, or is it in the thick of it?

When I was first looking into the Basilisk, I was kind of stumped. I ended up writing a short story featuring a Basilisk as part of an adventuring party, just to get my head into the Basilisk's place in the greater scheme of things:

The wagon wheel creaked, long and loud, through the Cetacian Glades. The sound was enough to startle birds from the branches, sending them flying through the air above the forest of black-leafed trees.

"I told you to fix that wheel, Hiss," growled the man in charcoal gray armor that sat at the front of the wagon, reins in his hands.

"I did, Aram, I did," responded the thin man who was group's craftsman, doctor and scoundrel, in the strained, damaged voice that was his namesake.

"Did you? Because I think that same wheel just alerted every beast and brigand for leagues around, that we're carrying thousands of gold worth of goods back to Wartton," Aram spoke.

"Old wagon," Hiss hissed, "Could be a different wheel that's squeaking."

Aram's retort was cut off, as the wagon lurched and changed course. Aram leaned forward, putting his gauntleted hand on the back of the six foot long, eight legged, rose-colored lizard that was hauling the wagon, "What is it, girl?"

"Niddhogg is a boy lizard, fool," mumbled the sorceress who was lying alongside the luggage on the wagon. Aram glanced at Hiss, who rolled his bloodshot eyes and made no effort to side with one person or the other in the weeks-long debate.

Ignoring the sorceress, Aram asked the lizard once more, "Where are you going?"

"Murrrrrrrrrrrr," rumbled the lizard. Still confused, but reassured by the non-threatened tone of Niddhogg's response, Aram leaned back, letting the reins slack.

"Any idea?" Hiss asked.

"It sounded kind of like a hungry growl," Aram ventured, "Is that it, Niddhogg? Are you hungry?"

"Eeuurrp," Niddhogg chirped, pausing briefly to turn its head and glance at Aram with cataract-white eyes. It said a lot about the beast's relationship with Aram that he didn't flinch.

"No, it's not food she's after, but she wouldn't turn down a snack," Aram interpreted.

Hiss shrugged. From behind them, the sorceress spoke, not lifting her head from the bedroll she was using as a pillow, "He. And I don't understand how he can be hungry all the time, when he can live off a diet of rocks."

"Unlike you, Nexandie, our Niddhogg is a lady of taste," Aram replied, "And rocks, I imagine, don't taste terribly good. Isn't that right, girl?"

"Hurrrrr," Niddhogg rumbled. Then, with redoubled effort, the lizard pulled forward, hauling the wagon through a patch of trees and into a clearing.

The surrounding trees had the same slate blue trunks and jet black leaves as the rest of the Cetacian Glades. The ground underfoot was intermixed patches of charcoal gray dirt and black grass. What stood out was the pond. The water was white. Not merely the white of milk, but a white so pure and free of shadow that it seemed almost to glow. Like a bolt of lightning frozen in time, a narrow stream of the same white liquid zig zagged from the dark foliage, down the nearby hill and into the pond. The sound of the white water trickling down the stream filled the clearing.

"What in the hells is this?" Aram breathed. As Niddhogg continued to lumber forward, he pulled on the reins. His efforts did nothing to slow the lizard's pace. Pulling hard, he grunted, "Hold on there, girl."

It was little use. The reins were more to stir Niddhogg into moving again when the creature paused, or to give general directions. In the end, though, the three hundred and fifty pound lizard went where it wanted. Aram hopped from his seat at the front of the wagon and hurried forward to try and get in front of Niddhogg, but wasn't able to before it reached the pond and dipped its snout in the water. There was a sound of the creature lapping water into its mouth and gulping it back.

"Hope it isn't poisonous," Nexandie spoke. She had risen from her makeshift bed and was now standing atop the highest point on the wagon. Even from this vantage point, the raven haired gnome sorceress stood no higher than Hiss, who was stepping forward to stand beside Aram.

"Gods damn it," Aram spoke. After a pause, he added, "Me too."

"Niddhogg was thirsty?" Hiss ventured.

"Guess so," Aram said, "We've been on the road since dusk. At least ten hours. This may be Niddhogg's way of saying she needs a break. I propose we make camp, hunt up something more substantial than dry tack for food. Any objections?"

"Yeah," an unfamiliar voice cut in, "I object."

Startled, Aram, Hiss and Nexandie turned to find the source of the voice. None was apparent.

"Yeah," the voice said, "We heard about you guys. 'Evil Eye Wayfarers', got a fair sized loan from the Wartton Adventurer's Guild, promising a big haul."

There was a mean chuckle, echoed by a half dozen others in the vicinity.

"Sorry to say, you won't make it back to Wartton," the voice sneered.

Nexandie laughed, sounding for all the world like a little girl. As she spoke, her tone of voice had a measure of condescension that one wouldn't find in a person three times her size, "That threat sounds kind of feeble when you're hiding in the trees."

There was a pause, then the unmistakable sound of a crossbow. Nexandie flinched, and then collapsed to the ground, the feathered end of the bolt sticking out of her stomach. At Aram's outraged cry, the Basilisk turned, glowing water still dripping from its maw. The lizard's angry, guttural screech joined Aram's voice as the battle opened.

The battle was short. The bandits attacked from the trees, but under Niddhogg's gaze, the foliage became sharp edged stone, impeding the Bandit's movements. Aram cut the Basilisk free from the wagon and called his shadow from the ground. The shadow, a darker reflection of Aram himself, lunged forward, just steps ahead of him, to impede his foes and leave them off balance for the precise swings of his longsword. Hiss knelt over their sorceress, a vial of acid between each finger, and threw a half dozen vials at any face or flesh that made itself visible between the black leafed trees. Agonized screams made it clear when the vials shattered and acid landed on target. Niddhogg abruptly charged into the trees at full speed, ignorant or uncaring of the roots that tried to snare the eight thick legs of the lizard. Eyes glowing, the Basilisk turned a whole swathe of forest and the three remaining bandits to hard stone.

As Aram sheathed his sword, his shadow sinking back to the ground to join its feet with his, Hiss quickly set his remaining acid vials back in his bandoleer and got to work on the sorceress, with scalpel, bandage, needle and thread set between his dextrous fingers much as the vials had been. The Basilisk came trudging back into the clearing, branches of wood and stone alike breaking around it and getting trampled beneath the lizard's broad clawed feet. Gently, the Basilisk nudged the prone Sorceress with its broad snout, then settled down on the ground, quietly watching.


*

"I have studied the arcane since before your grandfather was born, cursed knight," Nexandie managed to sound imperious even as she winced and whimpered every time the wagon bounced over a bump, stone or pothole on the road, "I'm telling you, he's a boy. A man. A chap. A bloke."

"And I've raised Nidhogg since she was an egg," Aram replied, testily, "If she were a boy, I'm sure I would have noticed."

Hiss' strained groan of annoyance - all sounds he made were strained or rasping - was barely audible as he turned over on the back of the wagon, pulling the spare bedroll around so it covered his ear.

The Basilisk grunted as it began pulling the wagon up a steep hill covered in stones. The wagon leaned back heavily on a back wheel, and the wheel, true to form, creaked loudly enough to echo through the black glades.

Aram turned to admonish Hiss, but his words died in his throat as a noise echoed a response to the creaking wagon, screeches long and loud. The Basilisk stopped in its tracks, looking around ponderously.

"And just to show I know what I'm talking about," Nexandie smiled grimly, "Those were dragon cries. Three young adult greens or juveniles, if I'm not mistaken."

"Hrrrrraaaaaaaaaa," The Basilisk groaned out.

Aram set his gauntleted hand on the pommel of his sword. Behind his helm, Aram's mouth set into a firm line, "Goddammit, Hiss. You've got to fix that wheel already."
You don't have to read that (I'm just including it because I figure someone might ask, written as what I imagine as a snippet out of a larger adventure arc), but I'm just saying, you gotta wrap your head around the flavor before you can sell the creature. Work with base creature, don't just copy the template as is. Templates are for monsters the DM wants to get out there quick & fast. PCs are player-owned, and players have little else to dedicate themselves to than their character. They can afford to be more complex.

bladesmith
2011-02-08, 01:43 PM
Hey, good to have you back, Magicyop!

Thoughts on the Corrupted Creature:
1) I'd like to second the request that natural weapons be made a part of the template, if you are just going to suggest that the DM give out a feat for claws anyways. It'd be better to just give the creature claws, and have the player not use them. The only way I can see this being a problem, is if the player is using a monster with a very powerful bite, and just dips into corrupted creature for secondary claw attacks.
After reading the over the original creature, you could say that they either gain claws if they don't already have natural attacks, or can boost the die size of one type of existing natural attack.
2) Secondly, I'd like to point out that the creature is already strongly leaning towards a melee-with-benefits role, what with the full BAB, good Fort save, and Str/Con bonuses. Toss in resistances and bonus damage on natural attacks, and you could probably build a pretty good fighter.
3) Corrupted Body is pretty straightforward, and the option to add to existing natural armor is a really good move in this thread.
4) Yay for more damage! Vile damage, too. Its a great way to get a little extra damage that won't be affected by DR. Also, energy resistance could be handy. It might be easier to state that resistance equals HD, rather then the "resistance 5 per 5HD" that you have now.
5) More resistances and fast healing, yay! Handy and straightforward, but very passive.
6) Ooh, spell-like ability that scales. Shiny. I like that you get to pick your own within the parameters, and that it scales as you level. Gives the creature something to do when it isn't tearing things to little pieces with it's natural weapons.
- Overall, this is a pretty straightforward class, with a lot of nice things to add on to your existing creature. The only real problem I have with this class is that almost all of the abilities are passive. You don't activate them, you don't think about them, an they don't really give you more options for crazy terrible things your corrupted creature can do that nothing else can do. In other words, it comes out kinda boring as a PC class. The only ability that isn't passive is a simple spell-like ability. My suggestion would be to create an ability or two of your own to stick in. Some sort of corrupted smite o' doom, or the ability to use his inner corruption to blind/weaken/sap the strength of enemies for glory and world domination/something awesome and unpredictable.

Psyborg
2011-02-08, 03:04 PM
Suggestion for the Corrupted One:

Vile Smite (Su): Once per day, when making a natural attack, the Corrupted One may draw on the wrongness at its core to taint its damage. The attack gains a bonus to hit equal to the Corrupted One's Con modifier, and half the damage dealt by the attack is Vile damage (which stacks with that from the Dark Power ability).

Once called up, the foul energy cannot be dissipated; it must be released. If the Vile Smite misses, the corruption churns within the Corrupted One's body, dealing 1 point of Vile damage to her. The energy has not been expended, so her next attack with that natural weapon will also be a Vile Smite. This continues, dealing 1 Vile damage to the Corrupted One after every missed attack (or 1 every round if she does not attack with that natural weapon), until a Smite is successful and the terrible energy can be released from her body.

The Corrupted One may use this ability additional times per day, but doing so takes its toll on her body. Each use after the first costs 1 point of Wis damage and 1 point of Con burn.

At 8 HD, and every 4 HD thereafter, the Corrupted One may choose to augment their Vile Smite with one of the following effects. If the Corrupted One already has 12 or more HD when she gains the Vile Smite ability, she only gains one augment, but may still gain additional ones from Hit Dice gained in the future (at every HD that is a multiple of four). Impervious to Impervious-ness (Prereq: Caster level 1+): The Vile Smite ignores any defensive bonuses from spells or effects with the [good] descriptor. Additionally, if the Smite hits on the first try, the Corrupted One may make a caster level check with a +5 profane bonus to dispel any spells or effects active on the target with the [good] descriptor, to a maximum of 1 spell/effect dispelled per seven HD.
Practiced Smite (Prereq: Must have taken enough Con burn from additional uses of Vile Smite to reduce your Con score to half its normal value, OR must have taken Con burn from using Vile Smite often enough to stay at least 2 points below your full normal score for an entire month): You may now smite twice per day without penalty, and you now take Con damage instead of Con burn, and no Wis damage, for additional uses of Vile Smite.
Deluding Smite: The false promise of dark power tugs at your target's mind. A target struck by your Vile Smite takes a -2 penalty to its next Will save.
Furious Doom: If you hit with your Vile Smite on the first attempt, you enter a rage. Treat this as the ability of a Barbarian of your Hit Dice, except that you never gain Tireless Rage.
Vile Frenzy (Prereq: At least three natural weapons, Multiattack): Your Vile Smite applies to all natural attacks you make for 1 round. If you have two or more claw attacks and the Rend special attack, all Rend damage you deal this round is Vile damage. You must hit with at least half of your natural attacks to discharge the Smite, and your damage for failing to discharge it is increased to (1/5 Hit Dice) Vile Damage. If you fail to discharge your Vile Smite on the first round, it only applies to a single Natural Attack thereafter.
Repulsive Power: Additionally, any Good target taking damage from a Vile Smite must make a Fortitude save (DC = 10 + 1/2 Hit Dice + Str modifier) or be nauseated for 1 round by the foulness coursing through them. Any non-Good target taking damage from a Vile Smite must make a Will save (DC = 10 + 1/2 Hit Dice + Str modifier) or be Dazed for 1 round by the dark power of the smite. Targets immune to being Nauseated or Dazed (as appropriate) instead take an additional 1d4 Vile damage from the Smite.
Echoes of Evil: Targets taking damage from a Vile Smite must make a Fort save (DC = 10 + 1/2 Hit Dice + Con modifier) or take half the damage of the original smite again the next round (1 point Vile damage and the same amount of non-Vile damage they took the first round). If they fail their save, they must save again next round, and so on, although the saving throw DC decreases by 3 per round. Special: If you have the Vile Frenzy augment, use the highest-damage hit, not the total of all of them.
Corrupting Smite: Additionally, when making a Vile Smite the Corrupted One may choose to take 2 Con damage to taint its target, rendering it vulnerable to Vile damage. If the Vile Smite hits, the target must make a Fort save (DC = 10 + 1/2 Hit Dice + Con modifier- use the Corrupted One's full Con score, before taking the Con damage used to activate this ability). On a successful save, the target takes an additional (1 per 4 HD) Vile damage whenever it takes Vile damage. On a failed save, the target takes an additional (1d4 per 4 HD) Vile damage whenever it takes Vile damage. Non-evil creatures within the area of a consecrate or hallow spell automatically make their save, and any creature within the area of a desecrate or unhallow spell takes a -5 penalty to their save.
In any case, this effect lasts for 1 minute per HD, unless the creature has both Regeneration and the Good subtype, in which case it lasts 1 round per HD.
This is considered a supernatural effect; it is suppressed when within an antimagic field, or consecrated or hallowed area. It cannot be removed by dispel magic, but it can be removed by dispel evil.

I'm afraid some of the augments may be a little too strong, particularly Vile Frenzy, Echoes of Evil, Corrupting Smite, and Impervious to Impervious-ness. Should I add a HD prerequisite?

Bonus points if you can tell where the name for the first Smite augment comes from :smallbiggrin:

Hyudra
2011-02-08, 04:12 PM
Dunno. Smiting isn't that interesting, and doesn't really change up the playstyle. Most of the augments listed don't do much, either.

Just throwing one idea out there, but what about a melee debuffer? Just throwing ideas out there, but...


Corrupted Tooth and Nail: With level 1 in the class, your natural attacks deal vile damage. You can opt out of the vile damage to corrupt your enemy with each natural attack. This gives them a cumulative -1 to AC and a -1 to all saves each time you deal the damage.

Depraved Frenzy: At second level, you enter a twitching mad frenzy for several heartbeats, catching foes off guard. As a swift action declared before you make any full-round, move or standard actions, you gain the ability to make an additional standard action that round, but until the end of your next turn, you take double damage and for any saving throws or skill checks you roll, you must reroll and take the lower result.

Vile Power: At third level, you gain a spell like ability with the evil, infernal, darkness, necromancy, abyssal or vile type or school. You can use a standard action to deliver this SLA alongside a natural attack, provided it is a spell that requires an attack roll (including ray and touch attacks). The spell takes effect after the attack damage and effects are calculated, so the saving throw uses any penalties imposed as a consequence of Corrupted Tooth and Nail.

Gorgondantess
2011-02-08, 06:37 PM
Depraved Frenzy: At second level, you enter a twitching mad frenzy for several heartbeats, catching foes off guard. As a swift action declared before you make any full-round, move or standard actions, you gain the ability to make an additional standard action that round, but until the end of your next turn, you take double damage and for any saving throws or skill checks you roll, you must reroll and take the lower result.

Go-go best caster dip ever, EVER! Or, well, best standard-action-using-character dip ever.

Hyudra
2011-02-08, 06:51 PM
Go-go best caster dip ever, EVER! Or, well, best standard-action-using-character dip ever.

I'm just brainstorming. It'd be up to the monster creator to get it balanced.

Mystic Muse
2011-02-08, 06:54 PM
Go-go gadget best caster dip ever, EVER!

Fixed it for you.:smallbiggrin:

Qwertystop
2011-02-08, 07:03 PM
The spellcasting in the "Corrupter Initiate" class feature of the Succubus is a bit unclear to me, and the example isn't helping much. Can someone explain it?

Corrupter initiate: If she multiclasses for an arcane/divince class she can count her succubus levels as levels of that class for purposes of CL and for the purposes of learning new spells and geting new spell slots. So for example, a succubus 3 who took 1 level of sorceror could choose to have CL 4, get 3 2nd level spell slots, 1 1st level spell slot, 1 2nd level spell known and 1 0th level spell known. She wouldn't get the spell knowns and spell slots of a sorceror 3 however. She would get the familiar ability, but succubus levels wouldn't count for it.

NineThePuma
2011-02-08, 07:06 PM
I /think/ it means that you would only get the new slots of a Sorc 4.

Zemro
2011-02-08, 07:41 PM
I've previously gone through and changed the spelling errors (which were embarrassingly more plentiful than I had anticipated) so I'm just addressing the other aspects of the critique.


Marrash (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10308045&postcount=324)
First level is a little dry. You get some flight and Marrash Body with some innate benefits, but you can't really do anything at that point.

I have a thought here, I'll being it up after I've responded to some related aspects.


Rename Body of Disease to Marrash Body? Having something nonspecific like Body of Disease creates confusion if another monster uses the same ability name, and you gestalt, for example.

Done


Personally, while it's technically fine, I'd prefer to see Flight as a separate ability at 5th level, rather than be granted with scaling for a 1 level dip.

I'm actually leaning in that direction myself after having thought about it, though I do like having the small bonuses for having wings at first. So, essentially I'll be splitting the ability.


Disease Carrier:
"Instead each one tracks its strains" -> what does "each one" refer to?
"and not be able to trap any more diseases." - what if I want to replace an old, retained disease with a newly acquired one?
"This DC is equal to the higher of the disease's base DC or 10 + half the Marrash's HD + constitution modifier" - just make it 10 + 1/2 HD + con mod.
"but continues to use the DC it rolled against to contract it." - why?
"each attempt at infection lowers the amount of held strains by one for that disease." - this sounds like an incredible pain in the arse. How many sources of disease are there, really? Disease isn't that useful to a PC, so you're effectively building a slightly tougher melee warlock that trades away invocations for diseases that are less effective & harder to keep a decent storage of.

It looks like I need to rework the ability some, so all of these points will be accounted for in the changes.


Disease Sense:
"allowing them to be aware of contaminated creatures and objects nearby. His senses" - you change focus here, from plural to singular. Them, their, all Marrashi to 'His'.
"and the number of contaminated subjects within 30ft plus an aditional 5ft for every point that the disease's DC exceedes 10." -> sounds like a right pain to keep track of.
"plus an aditional 5ft" -> additional.
"but cannot pinpoint position exactly unless within 5ft" -> missing a word/words. "but cannot pinpoint the victim's position exactly unless they are within 5'.
Why can't he pinpoint their position exactly? It's like an inferior scent.[quote]

Fair enough, changed.

[quote] Intensify Infection:
I don't know that I like it being a swift action, but can live with it.
I dont' like per-encounter abilities either.
"Regardless of the diseases save DC, this save an all future ones against" -> disease's, and all future ones.
"by the target" -> unnecessary. Delete.
"This ability also allows a Marrash to grow adition strains of diseases he has trapped. Once per day a Marrash can add an aditional strain to every disease he's carrying." -> additional, for both. Far too little, as far as ability to replenish disease stock.

I'm going to rework the ability a bit so that it fits with the reworking of the other disease related aspects.


Draw Disease:
"He makes a saving throw against the diseases DC" -> delete all mention of this. Use a standard DC, as determined by Marrash HD/con mod. Using the disease's DC will just make for a lot of bookkeeping and diseases that are too lame/too powerful for your level.

Maybe I misworded something, but the diseases base DC is only use here for when you encounter the disease. It doesn't have to be recorded beyond the disease information, which should be handy, so there's no additional bookkeeping. Regardless, I'm going to rework this a bit along with the other disease abilities.


Double Bowfire:
[list] With every attack? Attacks of opportunity? Maneuvers?

AoOs? Yes. Maneuvers? I hadn't thought about specific interaction there... Though my thoughts is that the arrows would just be a normal arrows in so far as damage and attack, maneuver effects being attached to the other.


Takliff Curse:
Kind of underwhelming as a capstone. It's a disease with no effects, that can affect disease immune foes, preventing resurrection & turning dead enemies into disease immune (which is your whole schtick) Marrashi with a grudge against you?

Overall, kind of weak. It's far too hard to get diseases, and too easy to spend them, provided you want to do anything with your class features. I mean, assuming 13.3 encounters a level, how many of those encounters feature foes with disease attacks? Now weigh that against the fact that you've then got to hit them or get them to hit you, to take in the disease. That gets you one use, which you may well spend in a subsequent encounter...

Which might be worth it if diseases were worthwhile, but they aren't. You can shorten the incubation period, which makes it ability damage with potential saving throws to cancel it (compare to other creatures in this project who deal ability damage in a very matter of fact way with their attacks).

To plug my own work, consider looking at Gravetouched Ghoul. There's a list of disease buffs the Ghoul could pick from under Ghoul Fever, that might suit the Marrash.

Beyond that, there's the element of passivity. The Marrash doesn't do a whole lot, beyond attack & occasionally receive/transfer diseases, or add an extra arrow in there somewhere.

I'll be looking at the ghoul and then I'll head back to the Marrash and see if I can't liven it up a bit then.

I had figured that if a PC wanted to find diseases it may not be that hard, especially with a way to detect them, but with your comments it's clear I need to revisit the related abilities. Thanks for the critique, this was a bit of unfamiliar territory so the direction is very helpful.

EDIT: On the Takliff curse:
Saving throws against the disease are made every other round after infection, and the disease deals 1d4 points points of damage to the creature's highest ability score for every failure. Though if the creature makes two successful saving throws in a row it does not make any more for one minute, unless subjected to the Intensify Infection ability of a Marrash after which is resumes making saves again as normal.

I did include effects, but I'll be looking at it a bit more along with the other abilities.

Hyudra
2011-02-08, 07:47 PM
The spellcasting in the "Corrupter Initiate" class feature of the Succubus is a bit unclear to me, and the example isn't helping much. Can someone explain it?

It's confusing, but what it means is that you'd get the added spell slots, spells known and spells per day you'd earn for progressing from 3rd level to 4th. You don't retroactively get the spells known/spell slots you'd have gained if you took levels 1-3 in the sorceress class. You'd add up your sorcerer and succubus levels to determine Caster Level.

So take the number in the 4th level row of the spells known & spells per day tables. Subtract each result by numbers in the 3rd level row, above. That's what you'd gain in terms of spells known or spells per day. The same applies to spell slots as a wizard.

What this means is that, if you're a 17th level succubus and you take a level in sorceress, you're gaining 9th level spells, not 1st level spells, keeping you far more relevant.

Qwertystop
2011-02-08, 07:51 PM
It's confusing, but what it means is that you'd get the added spell slots, spells known and spells per day you'd earn for progressing from 3rd level to 4th. You don't retroactively get the spells known/spell slots you'd have gained if you took levels 1-3 in the sorceress class. You'd add up your sorcerer and succubus levels to determine Caster Level.

So take the number in the 4th level row of the spells known & spells per day tables. Subtract each result by numbers in the 3rd level row, above. That's what you'd gain in terms of spells known or spells per day. The same applies to spell slots as a wizard.

What this means is that, if you're a 17th level succubus and you take a level in sorceress, you're gaining 9th level spells, not 1st level spells, keeping you far more relevant.
What happens if your Sorceress levels catch up to Succubus levels? (In this example, if a Succubus 3 took 4 Sorceress levels) Do the spells stack or overlap?

NineThePuma
2011-02-08, 07:53 PM
You would ONLY have the stuff gained from 4th-7th level.

It's stupid and ass backwards if you ask me.

Gorgondantess
2011-02-08, 08:03 PM
You would ONLY have the stuff gained from 4th-7th level.

It's stupid and ass backwards if you ask me.

No, it's actually quite clever, just inelegant. How else would you propose to allow halfway decent multiclassing for classes that really should be casters? One of the big things in this project is making classes viable beyond the run of their levels. Sometimes, with stuff like the giants, it's easy. With stuff like the succubus, it's pretty damn hard.

NineThePuma
2011-02-08, 08:06 PM
Succubus is broken anyways. Buff Cha to obscene levels and you can safely destroy everything ever.

Gorgondantess
2011-02-08, 08:22 PM
Succubus is broken anyways. Buff Cha to obscene levels and you can safely destroy everything ever.

Granted, but what about everything else that uses the spellcasting multiclassing rule?

NineThePuma
2011-02-08, 08:30 PM
1/2 HD in that class count as class levels for the exit caster class. Yay, ToB.

Hyudra
2011-02-08, 08:51 PM
To delete a double post, just click 'edit', then at the top, check the 'delete this post' circle and hit the 'delete post' button.

NineThePuma
2011-02-08, 10:07 PM
I know, I just had to leave right then.

Lix Lorn
2011-02-09, 04:27 AM
So... Imagine Monsterclass 10/Caster. They cannot get 9th level spells pre-epic.
A caster without 9th level spells is basically worthless.

NineThePuma
2011-02-09, 05:31 AM
... I dunno, I can do a lot with an 8th level spell slot.

It's also less clumsy than the method we currently have. You spontaneously grow caster levels from nowhere, but it isn't bad.

Lix Lorn
2011-02-09, 05:55 AM
But nothing like as much as an 8th level slot. :smalltongue:

NineThePuma
2011-02-09, 06:09 AM
... It's actually REALLY easy to Meta Magic stuff out. Yes, 9th level spells are awesome. But 6th level spells out do what most fighters can do. The lose of top level spells is a hard hit.

Ultimately, it's more balanced to go with my way. Because with this, you get a monster class, then a whole bunch of high level spells. With my way? You lose out on said top level spells but not the little ones.

Lix Lorn
2011-02-09, 06:19 AM
But a ninth level spell INCLUDES most spells below it in functionality. No blasting spell is more simply powerful than Meteor Swarm, or even, dare I say it, Polar Ray.

There's a reason any PrC that loses enough Caster levels to drop 9th level is immediately ignored by most high powered builds.

NineThePuma
2011-02-09, 07:25 AM
And in this scenario, we are offering the high level spells ON TOP of a ton of abilities.

For example, a 16 HD monster class can finish out with the last 4 levels in a full caster and get ALL the ninth level spells of a Caster 20. The succubus is a 7 level class that strictly superior to Sorcerer, and you can get all the goodies of a level 20 sorcerer (except, possibly, the benefits of a max level familiar, not that it matters) plus 7d8 hit dice that come with medium bab, 8+Int skills per level, +7 cha, and a good Reflex save. That's before I even look at the actual class abilities.

Yes, it's an issue that makes many caster monsters less appetizing. No, I don't think that it would be horribly unbalancing.

Lix Lorn
2011-02-09, 07:57 AM
But not the lower spells, which are, as you said yourself, important. Problem is, 9th level spells beat out every other class feature. Bar none.

Magicyop
2011-02-09, 08:02 AM
Okay, sounds great. I'll take five on critiquing until I've got some of my monsters finished with.

Speaking of which, I consider them to be basically done, so any forthcoming critiques would be a blessing. I guess it's possible that the living spell still doesn't have descriptions for all the unclear Anima, but I thought I got them all.

NineThePuma
2011-02-09, 08:30 AM
So let me get this straight.

Effectively, I'm saying balance it by taking away the nukes and leaving them all the lesser tools.

You're saying balance it by giving them the nukes and taking away the lesser tools.

Am I the only one who sees a problem with this?

Saidoro
2011-02-09, 10:20 AM
So let me get this straight.

Effectively, I'm saying balance it by taking away the nukes and leaving them all the lesser tools.

You're saying balance it by giving them the nukes and taking away the lesser tools.

Am I the only one who sees a problem with this?

Possibly. Sixth level spells are considered level appropriate abilities for an eleventh level character, ninth level are level appropriate for a seventeenth level character.What you are suggesting would mean that any caster with more than a handful of monster levels would be weaker than any single classed caster of the same level. And no, single classed spellcaster isn't our balance point, it's just that we want these classes to be useful in as many campaigns as possible, and cutting all spellcasting monsters out of any game with optimization going on isn't good.

Qwertystop
2011-02-09, 10:45 AM
So just to make sure I understand it: Monster classes that have that spellcasting bonus essentially allow you to skip over a number of levels of a spellcasting class equal to your levels in that monster class for purposes of spells known and spell slots.
Is there any way to regain a small amount of the spells you skipped over? For example, a sorcerer doesn't gain cantrip spell slots when going from 7th to 8th level. Would a 7th level succubus/1st level sorceress get any cantrips at all?
If not, are spell slots skipped set to - or to 0? (Because if they are 0, the number could be increased with bonus spell slots from high stats, but a - cannot be increased in that way.

Hyudra
2011-02-09, 10:45 AM
I was discussing the matter of monster class spellcasting over IM with Gorgon last night. Gorgon was coming up with all sorts of ways the present system could be exploited.

As it stands, the current system, as it was initially conceived by Oslecamo, is supposed to say "Your SLAs and class features roughly approximate the power boost that a sorc gets from level 1 to whatever your current level is". As such, getting spells for earlier levels is redundant and problematic. Given that you're essentially a caster monster (or you're supposed to be, anyways), going on to cast 9th level spells at 20 isn't supposed to be a big deal.

The problem is that the system is ultimately breakable. Gorgon was saying taking levels in focused spellcasting or getting bonus spells from a high attribute basically gets you the low level spells, and then you've got access to the nines if you're willing to invest. I'm not sure this works (given you're not necessarily getting both spells known or spells per day), but the system is admittedly clunky and flawed. This is made a greater issue by the fact that some monsters were given enough class features that they've basically got sorcerer casting with gravy, making them rather powerful and somewhat problematic when they do get their caster levels.

Let's get it out of the way and say that Oslecamo's work is not balanced. It ranges from tier 5 to tier 1 and it's awkward enough that we've made something of a project of going back and redoing his monsters. As such, one should try not to use it as a measuring stick for their own work or for what the community is producing. If you're going to say the whole "has caster levels equal to monster class + spellcaster class levels combined, advances the highest appropriate level of spellcaster spells, but not retroactively" thing is imbalanced, use one of the more recent monsters to gauge. Pick on the Marraenoloth, maybe. Gorgon likes that one and you're sure to get a lot of juicy responses if you go after it.

And that isn't to say I don't think Ninethepuma is more or less right about the issues with the current system. It's just that I don't know he's right about the fix, and that's compounded by the fact that a change to the core methodology means changing 12-25 monsters (at a guess) to replace the text and change what happens when they take spellcasting levels. Those monsters would have to be edited to insert new spellcasting transition rules, and some/most of them are by posters that are presently banned or who've left the project/the forums. It would mean reposting a lot of monsters. So with that in mind, we want to be sure that any rule we'd pick up wouldn't just be "not quite as issue prone". Nine does have a tendency to ignore the administration side of things, asking for images to be removed from monster classes, asking that we insert type & favored class into the list of monsters, (which would require we put it in table format), and I think there were one or two others that've come up in the past. Anyways, I've just got to stress that it's no use making a sweeping change if the act of carrying out that change is so complicated and time consuming and messy that the thread goes belly up.

Getting back on track: The trouble with '1/2 monster class levels count as spellcaster levels' is that, yes, it's a big hit in power (this doesn't bug me that much), but also that it's virtually the opposite as the original idea, in terms of intent and practice. You're not necessarily keeping the casters relevant, and you're creating a lot of redundancy through the lower levels, where you've already (or you're already supposed to, anyways) have some facsimile of casting by way of SLAs and class features.

So that's basically where we were at in the discussion of the issue. Nine's idea does make a degree of sense, but there's no use adopting it if we're ultimately creating as many issues as we're striving to do away with. So we're trying to see if there's flaws or what would work optimally before we jump the gun.

Hazzardevil
2011-02-09, 11:02 AM
In that case, you should either take that up with the horned devil's creator or start your own thread. It's kindof rude to just come in here and say "Yo, I think your monster isn't right so I'ma make my own, kthx."


What I meant was mine could be an alternative to the other one but if you want I shall abondon work on it.

Hyudra
2011-02-09, 11:14 AM
In general, Hazzard, our nebulous aim is to make a playable monster class for every monster in official material. Generally speaking, anyways. So if a monster is already posted, we don't want to use up time & resources to make the same monster again, unless the original is really sucky. Our time & yours is better spent making new monsters, so that when someone comes to the thread looking to play a for his campaign, there's a higher chance they'll find what they're looking for.

Given that Gorgon is one of our better homebrewers, it would probably make more sense & get a faster result to just communicate what you see as the problems of the class, than to make the horned devil yourself.

In any case, since you're just getting into the thread, I'd recommend starting with a much smaller creature. CR 5 or so would be a good start, just to figure out our standards. The first few posts of the thread have a few place where we outline stuff like "New homebrewers are encouraged to pick low-CR monsters, and not to attempt to tackle epic tier (20+ level) classes from the outset." - and the Cornugon, as a CR16, makes for a big job.

As stated in the second post of the thread: [I]"New homebrewers are encouraged to try their hand at a smaller class before getting into a 15+ CR monster. The process of a new player figuring out how to go about this homebrew, tackling a full 15 (or more) levels of content, balancing those 15 levels and then making all the necessary changes is often exhausting and frustrating for both the homebrewer and those critiquing the monster." We've just had too many people come in, start the big monster, and wind up spending weeks revising it to standards. Doing that for a monster we've already done would be redundant and doubly frustrating for everyone involved.

In any event, if you want to do a replacement monster class, you should run it by the people in charge of the thread (Gorgondantess and myself) first, and explain just what changes you'd want to make and why. We don't make alternate monster classes, I'm afraid.

ScionoftheVoid
2011-02-09, 12:08 PM
Revisions have been made for both the Gargoyle and Lodestone Marauder.

On the subject of redoing older monsters, once I've finished either the Gargoyle or the Lodestone Marauder (or possibly both), would my old Xill need redoing? I'd certainly be happy to try under the new guidelines.

Hyudra
2011-02-09, 12:33 PM
The Xill could stand to be updated. I'm suspicious about the issues of the extra arms - If I go barbarian at 2nd level, I can get four attacks in on a charge, with rage bonus to strength. So, assuming 18 str to start, that's, what, +10 to hit for each, 1d4+6 damage each? I then go warblade for tiger claw maneuvers to eat face.

And, pounce/multiattack shenanigans aside, it looks a touch boring to play. I mean, all you're doing for 6 levels (80ish encounters) is, what, declaring standard attack, getting a full attack/charge where possible, and crossing your fingers for paralysis and/or improved grab?

ScionoftheVoid
2011-02-09, 12:46 PM
The Xill could stand to be updated. I'm suspicious about the issues of the extra arms - If I go barbarian at 2nd level, I can get four attacks in on a charge, with rage bonus to strength. So, assuming 18 str to start, that's, what, +10 to hit for each, 1d4+6 damage each? I then go warblade for tiger claw maneuvers to eat face.

And, pounce/multiattack shenanigans aside, it looks a touch boring to play. I mean, all you're doing for 6 levels (80ish encounters) is, what, declaring standard attack, getting a full attack/charge where possible, and crossing your fingers for paralysis and/or improved grab?

And that is precisely why I want to have a chance to update it. The Xill was fine when we were pumping out flavourless abilities that stuck to the original monster's, but it is now outdated. I want to fix issues regarding extra arms and make it exciting to play. I have already got some ideas, though it will have to wait until I have less than two monsters on the go (unless you would trust me with a third, which I do not necessarily advise).

I've just had a great idea to sort the Gargoyle's movement speed choices out, by the way, which I think you'll like because it drops Burrow and Swim is reduced to a variant with a few other (flavour-appropriate) bonuses to compensate for it being a weaker choice.

Lord_Gareth
2011-02-09, 01:48 PM
With Kyuubi having dropped her, is anyone else interested in picking up/finishing Illurien?

Markus Darkmind
2011-02-09, 03:16 PM
With Kyuubi having dropped her, is anyone else interested in picking up/finishing Illurien?

I'd like to give it a try once I've redone the Corrupted Template, but being new to the project I'll understand if someone more experienced is needed...

Psyborg
2011-02-09, 05:08 PM
Dunno. Smiting isn't that interesting, and doesn't really change up the playstyle. Most of the augments listed don't do much, either.
Okay, yeah, Smite is boring :smallredface: Never mind then.

Corrupted Tooth and Nail: With level 1 in the class, your natural attacks deal vile damage. You can opt out of the vile damage to corrupt your enemy with each natural attack. This gives them a cumulative -1 to AC and a -1 to all saves each time you deal the damage.
I like it. Perhaps allow them to choose between Bodily Corruption (-1 AC and saves) and Mental Corruption (-1 spell resistance and/or spell/power/SLA/PLA penetration and/or save DCs)?

What type of penalty is it? (Probably profane? Though I could see a case for circumstance, inherent, and morale as well...somebody more experienced than me needs to answer this one! XD). Should probably also specify a duration (indefinite, like Vile damage, I assume), and how it can be removed/healed (only on sanctified ground, also like Vile damage?)

Depraved Frenzy: At second level, you enter a twitching mad frenzy for several heartbeats, catching foes off guard. As a swift action declared before you make any full-round, move or standard actions, you gain the ability to make an additional standard action that round, but until the end of your next turn, you take double damage and for any saving throws or skill checks you roll, you must reroll and take the lower result.
Awesome for any caster or martial adept, particularly sorcerers with Wings of Cover and Warblades with d12 hit dice and counters to parry/negate attacks and make Concentration checks for saves. I have no idea how powerful this would work out to be in practice, however. My general feeling is that it's approximately balanced, however. Double damage and low-reroll saves is taking a pretty serious risk. Maybe add a per-encounter or not-two-rounds-in-a-row limit?

You might also make this a free action once per round (X/encounter, or wait X rounds to use again) that lets you use two swift actions this turn. Would still give them an extra spell, but lower level barring metamagic rods, and martial characters would get an extra boost or counter rather than an extra strike. On the other hand, I know extra swift actions are almost impossible to get (the only way I know of is Ruby Knight Vindicator), and I may not be fully versed in the shenanigans people could get up to with them. Who knows, they might be more problematic than standards. *shrug* Just throwing another idea out there.

Vile Power: At third level, you gain a spell like ability with the evil, infernal, darkness, necromancy, abyssal or vile type or school. You can use a standard action to deliver this SLA alongside a natural attack, provided it is a spell that requires an attack roll (including ray and touch attacks). The spell takes effect after the attack damage and effects are calculated, so the saving throw uses any penalties imposed as a consequence of Corrupted Tooth and Nail.
Should specify the level of spell available, and if/when you get to switch it out. Otherwise, looks good.

Maybe give it the ability to add it to a natural attack as an attack action once per round at a certain point? So they can use it 1/round and still full-attack. (Maybe 15HD, or SLA level*3 HD, or 4-5 HD after completing the class...I dunno. Just a thought anyway.)

Hope that sparks some thought.

Kobold-Bard
2011-02-09, 05:23 PM
...

Quasi-God (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10077255&postcount=719)
Don't love divine spark. Doesn't fit every god, either in the blasting or the healing departments (I don't see Kord throwing lightning, or Nerull healing).

Split it into a choice of 3 (attack, defend & heal). Better? I'm open to more if you can think of any.

Regardless, rather than write "deals 1d6/2HD damage.", it'd be much cleaner to write it out in full.
Ditto for "Additionally, 1/2HD each day", which is confusing at first read.

Adjusted.

Fledgling Portfolio:
You refer to the creature as a god. Are they really? AFAIK, they don't qualify as such until they have a divine rank.

Adjusted.

You use it's instead of its, second paragraph.

Done.

State that the choice of resistance is made once.
Broken list tags under Aura of Divinity.

Done.

Aura of Resolve is incredibly strong. A simple +3 to all allies' saves, attack rolls, skills and ability checks at 9th level?

Changed it to a choice of which one. Also made it less powerful.

I don't even understand how Weaken Aura works. What if enemies don't have that many levels?

Added something and lowered the number of Neg Levels.

The Demiplane seems badly abusable. Combat not going your way? Head to the demiplane to wait out the negative spell effects, or let your friends scamper through.

Effects carry on once you leave. Made the immediate action 1/day, which even so leaves your allies without you there. To get in or out any other way you now need a full round round action plus a standard action to open and close it, which means barring a belt of battle etc. you have to leave it open for at least a turn so not viable in combat really.

Honestly, this creature, along with the Pandorym, is so 'out there' that I don't feel, even after going through it ability by ability, that I have a good grasp of it or where it stands. I admit I'm perplexed.

I tried to make it as open as possible. It's along similar lines to the Monster of Legend; it's customisable & versatile so it can fit as many characters as possible since there are so many Godly possibilities. Hopefully however it's more interesting than the MoL.

...

In addition I've changed the method of acquiring spell etc. progression so it's capped at 3 levels worth. I've added an "if they're willing to answer" clause to the Contact Other Plane ability.

Thought's now?

Hyudra
2011-02-09, 06:03 PM
Okay, yeah, Smite is boring :smallredface: Never mind then.

I like it. Perhaps allow them to choose between Bodily Corruption (-1 AC and saves) and Mental Corruption (-1 spell resistance and/or spell/power/SLA/PLA penetration and/or save DCs)?

What type of penalty is it? (Probably profane? Though I could see a case for circumstance, inherent, and morale as well...somebody more experienced than me needs to answer this one! XD). Should probably also specify a duration (indefinite, like Vile damage, I assume), and how it can be removed/healed (only on sanctified ground, also like Vile damage?)

Awesome for any caster or martial adept, particularly sorcerers with Wings of Cover and Warblades with d12 hit dice and counters to parry/negate attacks and make Concentration checks for saves. I have no idea how powerful this would work out to be in practice, however. My general feeling is that it's approximately balanced, however. Double damage and low-reroll saves is taking a pretty serious risk. Maybe add a per-encounter or not-two-rounds-in-a-row limit?

You might also make this a free action once per round (X/encounter, or wait X rounds to use again) that lets you use two swift actions this turn. Would still give them an extra spell, but lower level barring metamagic rods, and martial characters would get an extra boost or counter rather than an extra strike. On the other hand, I know extra swift actions are almost impossible to get (the only way I know of is Ruby Knight Vindicator), and I may not be fully versed in the shenanigans people could get up to with them. Who knows, they might be more problematic than standards. *shrug* Just throwing another idea out there.

Should specify the level of spell available, and if/when you get to switch it out. Otherwise, looks good.

Maybe give it the ability to add it to a natural attack as an attack action once per round at a certain point? So they can use it 1/round and still full-attack. (Maybe 15HD, or SLA level*3 HD, or 4-5 HD after completing the class...I dunno. Just a thought anyway.)

Hope that sparks some thought.

I was just putting the ideas out there. It's up to someone else to fix them up & use them if they so wish.

Psyborg
2011-02-09, 06:25 PM
@Hyudra: And yours were better than mine :smallamused: I was just commenting/brainstorming, mostly. It's Markus' creature in any case. Hopefully he'll find some of our back-and-forth useful, or at least it'll spark some idea of his own.

Makiru
2011-02-09, 08:52 PM
On the topic of fixing our old monsters, should I go back at some point and fix the Rukanyr and Roving Mauler (I think the Nashrou is recent enough that it sticks to current guidelines)?

EDIT: Actually, Roving Mauler is post-Osle, so it's probably fine, at least for now.

Hyudra
2011-02-09, 10:02 PM
Medusa
http://i54.tinypic.com/2wciuz4.jpg
Monster Class
Monster Manual, SRD

Class
HD: D8

{table=head]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will |Special
1st|+0|+0|+2|+0| Medusa Body, Snakebite, Slither/Stride, Serpentine Stance, +1 Dex
2nd|+1|+0|+3|+0| Chthonic Eye, Seductive Hiss, +1 Dex, +1 Cha
3rd|+2|+1|+3|+1| Snake Nest, Serpentine Stance II, Undulating Defense, +1 Dex,
4th|+3|+1|+4|+1| Chthonic Flash, Cold Blooded, +1 Dex, +1 Cha
5th|+3|+1|+4|+1| Strangle, Serpentine Stance III, Force Gaze, +1 Dex
6th|+4|+2|+5|+2| Chthonic Domination, Coil, +1 Dex, +1 Cha
7th|+5|+2|+5|+2| Gaze of the Gorgoness, Medusa's Kiss, Serpentine Stance IV, +1 Dex
[/table]
Skill Points 6+Int per level
Class Skills: Appraise, Balance, Climb, Diplomacy, Disguise, Escape Artist, Gather Information, Hide, Intimidate, Knowledge (Dungeoneering or Local), Listen, Move Silently, Search, Sense Motive, Spot, Swim, Tumble.

Proficiencies: The Medusa is proficient with simple and martial weapons, and with her own natural weapons.

Medusa Body: The Medusa loses all other racial bonuses and gains Monstrous Humanoid traits, granting her Darkvision out to 60'. Medusae are initially medium sized creatures with a base movement speed of 30', possessing a 'snakes' natural weapon that delivers 1d4 + Str mod damage and injects poison (see Snakebite ability, below). This weapon deals piercing damage. The Medusa has natural armor equal to her con modifier.

Medusae speak Common and Serpentine (A medusa-only language using only their snakes' gestures to communicate) as their starting language and gain additional languages for a high intelligence score as normal.

Attribute Bonus: The Medusa gains +1 Dex with every level in the class and +1 Cha with every even numbered level in the class, for a total bonus of +7 Dex and +3 Cha at 7th level.

Snakebite: The first level Medusa features a mane of venomous snakes that protrude from her scalp, coiling and snapping at those who come in reach. The 'snakes' natural weapon deals damage as described in Medusa Body, above, with a crit range of 19-20. Each successful attack with the snakes delivers an injury based poison. The poison allows a fortitude save, with a DC of 10 + ½ Medusa HD + Medusa's Con. On a failed saving throw, the victim takes attribute damage based on the Medusa's HD as described on the table below:

{table=head]HD|Initial Damage|Secondary Damage
1|1d4 Str|1d4 Str
3|1d4 Str|1d6 Str
6|1d6 Str|1d6 Str
9|1d6 Str|1d8 Str
12|1d8 Str|2d6 Str
15|2d6 Str|2d6 Str
18|2d6 Str|3d6 Str[/table]
The coils of snakes offer the Medusa several sets of eyes and (to a lesser extent) ears that operate independently of her primary focus. She rolls twice for any spot or search checks, taking the higher result, and gains Alertness as a bonus feat. In the event that the Medusa cannot use her primary set of eyes, she loses this benefit, but can continue to use her snakes to sense her surroundings. In doing so, she suffers a -2 penalty to spot and search checks. If she has her serpents concealed or blinded in some fashion, conversely, she simply loses the alertness feat and the benefit of the spot/search rerolls until such a time as her snakes can sense the world around them again.

Slither/Stride: At first level, the Medusa gains abilities stressing the particulars of her shape; Namely, whether she has legs or a serpent's lower body. Of the two stances the Medusa gains at 1st level, the first is determined by her choice between Slither (tail) vs. Stride (legs), the second is picked from the list of Serpentine Stances, described in the ability entry below.

Pick one of the following:
Stride - The Medusa sports two humanoid legs. She may wear boots and clothing intended for the lower body, and gains a bonus to disguise checks to appear as a medium sized humanoid equal to ½ her HD. The Medusa gains the following stance:

Asp's Bite: Stance. Grants the Medusa a 10% chance that melee attacks will miss her. Under the effects of this stance, she gains the ability to make an attack of opportunity when an opponent attacks her and fails to hit. These attacks of opportunity count against her maximum for the round.

.
Slither - The Medusa has a serpent's tail from the waist down, rather than legs. She is counted as a four legged creature for the purposes of being tripped or making balance checks, but cannot wear boots or legwear. Aside from the resistance to being tripped, there are no immediate benefits to having the tail, but the tail complements a number of Medusa stances and class features. The Medusa gains the following stance:

Swaying Cobra: Stance. Grants the Medusa the ability to make a 5' step in response to any 5' step made by an opponent within 15' of her. She may make a 10' step where she would normally make a 5' step on her turn, but doing so requires a swift action and cancels Swaying Cobra Stance.

Serpentine Stance: At first level, the Medusa gains a stance, chosen from the list below:
Darting Serpent: Stance. Grants the Medusa a cumulative bonus of +5' base movement speed at the end of each of her turns, starting on any turn where initiative is rolled. This movement speed bonus accumulates to a maximum of 50% the Medusa's base speed (so a Medusa with 30' base speed could get a total benefit of +15' movement). On a charge, provided she had at least 5' of accumulated movement, the Medusa may drop this stance. Doing so allows the Medusa to full attack on a charge and carry the target 5' in the direction of the charge for every 5' of bonus movement the Medusa had accumulated. The Medusa gains a +2 circumstance bonus to her attack rolls for every 5' of bonus movement she had before charging.
This stance and the accumulated benefits are lost if a foe makes a successful attack roll against the Medusa or successfully affects the Medusa with a combat maneuver (such as tripping, bull rushing, grappling the Medusa). The stance and all accumulative benefits are lost when combat ends.

.
Ouroboros Coils: Stance. The Medusa moves with sibilant grace, the serpents that wreath her head simultaneously moving in hypnotizing arcs and loops that distract attention and echo her words with the visual display, giving her an almost hypnotic presence. While in the Ouroboros Coils Stance, the Medusa may attempt to demoralize as a swift action.

While the Medusa is in the Ouroboros Coils stance, opponents within 15' of her are more liable to cower, cringe or go to excess in shielding their gaze from the undulating Medusa. Demoralized, shaken, panicked, cowering or frightened opponents within 15' of the Medusa retain the status effects until they move more than 15' away from her or she ends the stance, at which point the durations count down as normal. Opponents within 15' of the Medusa who choose to make a reflex save (as opposed to voluntarily failing) render themselves flatfooted until the start of their next turn, regardless of success or failure.

.
Rising Anaconda: Stance. Grants a climb speed equal to the Medusa's base speed, with the restriction that she must end her turn in a position where she isn't still climbing. A tree branch or ledge would be fine, but clinging to a wall or hanging off a ledge would not. If the Medusa chose Slither rather than Stride, and there is freedom to climb all the way around the object in question, (such as a tree or pillar), the Medusa may take 20 on the climb check.

In Rising Anaconda Stance, provided she is at a point higher than her target, the Medusa may leap down to her target. This is a charge, but imposes no AC penalty on the Medusa, ignores difficult terrain between herself and the target, and does not double the Medusa's movement for the purposes of charge distance. A Rising Anaconda Stance charge forces the target to make their choice of a reflex save or a balance check, against a DC of (10 + ½ Medusa HD + Medusa's Str mod or Dex mod, her choice) or fall prone. The prone condition is inflicted after the Medusa moves to a point adjacent to the target, but before the Medusa delivers her charge attacks.
Adopting a Serpentine Stance (Slither/Stride stances count as Serpentine Stances for the purposes of these rules of use) requires a swift action and can not be used in conjunction with other stances (such as Initiator Stances). The stance has no duration. Only one stance may be maintained at a time.

Chthonic Eye: Starting at second level, the Medusa may turn the supernatural power of her gaze to an enemy, turning some, most or all of them to stone. Use of Chthonic Eye is a standard action, with many of the drawbacks of a gaze attack. It targets a single foe within 25', with an additional 5' of range for every two HD of the Medusa. This attack requires line of sight to the target, and miss chances for concealment apply as is normal for gazes.

The target must make a Reflex Save against a DC of 10 + ½ Medusa's HD + Medusa's Cha. On a failure, consult the table below:

{table=head]Failed by...|Result|Penalty
1|Fatigued|1
2-3|Exhausted|2
4-5|Slowed & Exhausted|4
6-7|Dazed|6
8+|Petrified|-[/table]
Fatigue, exhaustion, slow and dazed conditions persist for 1d3 rounds, but the duration does not decline on any turn the target is in the Medusa's line of sight. Petrifaction lasts a number of hours equal to the Medusa's HD multiplied by the Medusa's Charisma modifier, and the duration may be reset by another use of Chthonic Eye on the target. Foes who fail another reflex save against Chthonic eye whilst still suffering from a previously applied effect count the result of their save as being lower. Such foes subtract the penalty value listed in the rightmost column of the table above from their save result. This change is made only after the save is deemed successful or not, and therefore does not determine the success or failure of Chthonic Eye, just the effect that is applied.
Medusae are immune to the effect of their own gaze.

When the Medusa reaches 4HD, all opponents count as though they had a result 1 lower than it was. This increases by a further -1 at 8HD and every 4HD thereafter. This does not affect the DC (and as a consequence, does not affect the chance of saving against the effect), but only the effect that is applied.

At 8HD, the duration of the Medusa's petrifaction doubles, and the duration of other effects now persists for 2d3 rounds.

At 16HD, the duration of petrifaction becomes 'permanent'.

Seductive Hiss: A second level Medusa may, as a move action, force her opponents to make their choice of their sense motive or Will save against a DC of 10 + ½ the Medusa's HD + the Medusa's Cha mod. The initial save is made with a +2 bonus on the part of the victim, but the Medusa increases the DC by a cumulative +2 with each consecutive turn she makes the attempt. Beating the opponent's result renders the opponent beguiled for 6 rounds. A beguiled opponent is entranced by the Medusa, caught in an almost hypnotic state, and suffers faintness of heart when striving to strike her down with spell or sorcery. Foes have a -4 to hit the Medusa if another valid target is in range. Similarly, any spell, spell like ability or ability (such as a breath weapon) that would affect the Medusa has its DC lowered by 2. This includes spells with the Medusa as an explicit target and area of effect attacks with the Medusa in the area. Any time the Medusa attacks or targets the victim with an spell or ability, the remaining duration for the effect is either halved or reduced by 2 rounds. A victim that has been Beguiled cannot be beguiled again for 24 hours.

If the Medusa is in Ouroboros Coils Stance, she may use Seductive Hiss as a Swift action, and the duration is extended to 12 rounds. Exiting the stance is treated as though the Medusa struck the foe.

At 6HD, the Medusa can use Suggestion 1/day on any subject she has beguiled, and subjects do not remember the captivation of the suggestion.

At 10HD, the Medusa can use Dominate Person 1/day per 6HD she has, but is restricted to using it on beguiled subjects.

The Seductive Hiss, Suggestion and Dominate Person effects are extraordinary abilities that only affects humanoids that can understand the Medusa.

Snake Nest: At third level, the Medusa is far more adept at using her snakes in combat. She gains Weapon Finesse as a bonus feat, or a bonus feat of her choice that she qualifies for if she already has Weapon Finesse, and gains the ability to use dexterity in the place of strength to determine damage for her snakes attack. Further, the Medusa gets a free attack with her Snakes against any opponent that is in her space at the start of her turn.

Serpentine Stance II: At third level, the Medusa gains an additional stance, chosen from the list below:
Stalking Serpent - Stance. The Medusa extends her critical threat range by one step (such as from 19-20 to 18-20) at the end of each of her turns. In addition, for the duration of the stance, her critical multipliers for all of her attacks are extended by one step (such as from x2 to x3). The benefits accumulate until the Medusa scores a critical hit, at which point the critical threat range and critical damage multiplier reset to normal and are free to accumulate again. This stance can only be initiated after initiative rolls have been made and ends when the encounter does.

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Snake in the Grass - Stance. The Medusa gains a bonus to hide and spot checks equal to her Charisma modifier. Further, when the hidden Medusa is spotted, she retains concealment benefits for one round.

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Mamba's Pursuit - Stance. You designate a foe within 20' as your turn ends. If that foe moves more than 20' away from you before the start of your next turn, you lunge forward to fill the space they just departed and are free to deliver an attack of opportunity if they decide to continue moving.

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Serpentine Stance: any stance in found in the list under Serpentine Stance, above. (Darting Serpent, Viper's Fangs, Ouroboros Coils or Rising Anaconda).
Undulating Defense: The Medusa, starting at third level, can take ten on tumble checks at any time, even when threatened, and suffers no penalties for dodging past multiple opponents, as she expertly contorts, feints and slips through their number.

Chthonic Flash: A fourth level Medusa can rip a veil, hood or mask from her face to release a powerful surge of energy from her eyes, turning a number of enemies to solid stone. For these purposes, the Medusa gains a Chthonic Charge every hour, to a maximum equal to her HD divided by 4. By spending a Chthonic Charge, the Medusa turns her gaze into a cone extending 30'. All targets within the area must save or be affected in the manner described in Chthonic Eye, above.

Cold Blooded: A fourth level Medusa is moved by little besides her own desires. The Medusa can make a reroll in the event of a failed saves against an emotion-based spell, drug, disease or similar effect. Emotional effects that Cold Blooded might help prevent might include rage, fear, despair, lust or panic.

Strangle: Medusae, from fifth level onward, can capitalize on an unaware or helpless opponent's weakness, strangling the life out of them with her mane of snakes, hands and/or tail. The Medusa is considered to have Improved Grab with any and every melee range weapon when attacking a foe that is denied their dexterity bonus to AC or a foe that she is flanking. Further, she may now use her Dexterity modifier in the place of her strength modifier when grappling.

An opponent that is grappling with the Medusa immediately begins suffocating. However, as the suffocation is forced on the victim rather than being a more or less passive environmental effect, the victim only has air to hold their breath for 1 round per 2 points of Constitution they have. Further, the DC to save against suffocation is increased by the Medusa's Str mod or Con mod, whichever is higher. Each time the Medusa succeeds in a grapple check against the victim (including the check to initiate the grapple) she reduces the amount of rounds the opponent can hold his breath by 1 and increases the DC of all further suffocation checks by that foe by +2 (this is cumulative).

If the Medusa has a tail (such as the tail option in Slither/Stride, above), each successful grapple check reduces the amount of rounds an opponent has air for by 2, instead, she deals 1d6 + Str bonus points of nonlethal damage each round she grapples and she counts herself as being one size larger for the purposes of grapple checks.

Serpentine Stance III: At fifth level, the Medusa gains an additional stance, chosen from the list below:
Snake Oil: Stance. For the duration, any time the Medusa takes a move action, ranged and melee attacks directed at her suffer a 25% miss chance, until the end of her turn. If she takes a full round move action, attacks against her suffer a 50% miss chance until the end of her turn, followed by a 25% chance miss chance until the start of her next turn. This stance can only be initiated after initiative rolls have been made and ends when the encounter does.

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White Fangs Striking: Stance. Attacks of the Medusa that deliver piercing damage, for the duration of this stance, cause the enemy to bleed profusely. At the end of any round in which a struck opponent took a standard or move action, that foe takes bleeding damage equal to the Medusa's Dex modifier plus an additional point of damage for every time she has struck them with a piercing weapon while in this stance. The bleeding damage ceases if the victim goes three rounds without being struck by a White Fangs Striking Stance enhanced piercing weapon, if they take a full round action that provokes attacks of opportunity to staunch the blood, or if they make a heal check as a standard action to stop the bleeding (DC is 10 + ½ Medusa HD + Medusa Dex bonus).

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Viper's Fangs: Stance. Grants the Medusa +1 to her poison DC and +1 competence bonus to attack rolls using her snakes. Successfully striking an opponent with her snakes increases these benefits for subsequent attacks against the same foe, doubling the bonus to the poison DC each time (ie. +2 for the second, +4 for the third, etc) and increases the competence bonus to attack rolls by a further +1. Further, the Medusa may make iterative attacks when making an attack action with just her snakes and she may add the Viper's Fangs Stance bonus to attack rolls to her BAB for the purposes of determining how many iterative attacks she may make. (ie. If the Medusa has a +5 BAB, and entered the Viper's Fangs Stance with the +1 inherent bonus, she could make an attack at +6 and another attack at +1.)
If the Medusa misses an attack with her snakes, attacks a different target or changes stances, all accumulated bonuses of the Viper's Fangs stance are lost.

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Serpentine Stance II: any stance found under Serpentine Stride II. (Stalking Serpent, Snake in the Grass or Mamba's Pursuit).

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Serpentine Stance: any stance in found under Serpentine Stance, above. (Darting Serpent, Viper's Fangs, Ouroboros Coils or Rising Anaconda).

Force Gaze: Starting at fifth level, a Medusa can use strength to force an opponent to meet her eyes, gripping their chin or hair and wrenching their head in her direction. A Medusa that is grappling a foe or otherwise sharing a space with a foe can make an opposed Strength roll against her target as a standard action. If she beats the target's result, she may use Chthonic Eye against her target, with a circumstantial bonus on the reflex save DC equal to the amount she beat her opponent's Strength check.

Use of Force Gaze means that Chthonic Eye cannot be prevented by the usual means of avoiding gaze attacks, such as eye protection, attention focused solely on reflective surfaces and concealment.

Chthonic Domination: Starting at sixth level, the Medusa can spend a Chthonic Charge to adjust the DC of her Chthonic Eye and Chthonic Flash abilities, adding a +2 competence bonus. She may do this after the save has been rolled, but before the effects take place. In doing so, the Medusa may adjust the result to a higher condition or make a successful save into a failure. Any time the Medusa petrifies a foe challenging enoguh to grant experience to her, she gains a Chthonic Charge, though never more than her maximum (as described under Chthonic Flash).

Coil: At sixth level, the reptilian Medusa, with her flexible serpentine nature, can maintain two different stances at once, provided at least one of the stances is from the Medusa monster class.

Gaze of the Gorgoness: Starting at seventh level, the Medusa may focus her gaze over an area, afflicting any who enter her line of sight. Use of Gaze of the Gorgoness is a full round action, rendering the Medusa flat footed. She draws a cone out to 30', excluding any tiles against which she does not have line of sight. Those starting, moving through and/or ending their turn in the area of effect must make a reflex save, with those who only moved through the cone gaining a +4 save. Failure on the save results in petrifaction, using the same duration noted under Chthonic Eye.

Medusa's Kiss: A seventh level Medusa may reverse the effect of her petrifaction (and only her petrifaction) with a kiss.

Serpentine Stance IV: A seventh level Medusa may choose two new stances from any of the previous Serpentine Stance lists.


Comments
Haven't decided on a picture yet. A friend picked out the one I used, above, but have a look at the following and let me know which you like & don't like:

http://i55.tinypic.com/t02q00.jpg
http://i56.tinypic.com/2lsczt2.png
http://i53.tinypic.com/ac4kma.jpg
http://i54.tinypic.com/30sj2pt.jpg
http://i56.tinypic.com/2hwjkoy.jpg
http://i56.tinypic.com/immkv4.jpg
http://i54.tinypic.com/2wciuz4.jpg
http://i53.tinypic.com/2wel6hg.jpg

So, the Medusa. I went a pretty unconventional route, here, as this Medusa is stance based and the stone gaze isn't the be-all and end-all of the class.

The Medusa here is close to the rogue in general design direction, which I feel is pretty in line with the portrayal of the Medusa in 3.5 D&D canon, who tend to like being bandit queens or skulking around ruins. In the end, you've got a bit going for you as a grappler, and your stances and poison will assist you in getting that done.

Failing that, or if you want to down and dirty wrasslin' to take a backseat, you've got your petrifying gaze, which you can use as a cone, boost for added effect or direct as an area effect to deny sections of the battlefield to your foes.

The stances came about because I had so many ideas on what the Medusa could do in terms of stalking or mobility, and I found myself searching for something more or less active, decision-wise, at early levels, beyond "Do I use Chthonic Eye or not?" So you're making calls on which stance to use from level 1 onward, and as you find yourself getting gaze attacks, grappling becoming more viable and other little tricks making themselves apparent, your combat options open up nicely.

And just as a note, for those wondering, 'Chthonic' means 'of the Underworld' in literal translation from the greek roots, but roughly (as I understand it) breaks down to 'cursed earth'. In myth, Medusa's parents were originally born of the underworld, and the effect of her gaze matches well with the 'cursed earth' motif, so that's why I named some of the abilities what I did, hard as it is to spell or pronounce.

Changelog
Changes, February 10th, 2011
Fixed Serpentine Stance III, where it said it was gained at third level instead of fifth.
Changed the feint option of Force Gaze so the victim uses their choice of sense motive or will save.
Stressed that the bonus feat that you get in Snake Nest needs to be qualified for, if you're not getting Weapon Finesse.
Changes, February 14th, 2011:
I'd forgotten to give the Medusa poison numbers for 1st level. Now deals 1d4 initial and 1d4 secondary.
Seductive Hiss revised. It now gives the enemy penalties to hit (or to DCs) if they would strike the Medusa and there's another target in range. It doesn't require as hefty an action anymore, but it is a standard cha-based DC that allows victims to use their choice of will save or sense motive, so it's less reliable to use.
Changes, February 24th, 2011:
Stances are changed. There's no longer a restriction on initiating stances only after initiative rolls have been made. Abilities that would be broken as a consequence have a note that they can only be used in combat (paraphrasing).
Stalking Serpent clarified as to what 'one step' means as far as advancing critical threat range and critical damage).
Snake in the Grass reworded to state "when the medusa is spotted, she gains the benefits of concealment for 1 round." (thanks @ Gorgon for the wording)
White Fangs Striking nerfed. It added dex to damage, but that was removed as it stacks with Snake Nest's dex to damage. Used Gorgon's suggested wording of "attacks that deal piercing damage" over "piercing weapons"
Removed ability to bluff enemies as an option in Force Gaze.
Changes, February 27th, 2011:
Fixed changelog where changes were listed as taking place in 2010. Freaking time: pain in the arse.
Viper's Fangs stance moved to Serpentine Stance III
Clarified DCs. Darting serpent is circumstance, Force gaze is circumstance, chthonic domination is competence
Clarified text under Chthonic Eye. Made 16HD bonus to it 'petrifaction is permanent.'
Clarified wording under Seductive Hiss, to make it clearer what the DC is and how it progresses

The Tygre
2011-02-09, 11:24 PM
Speaking picture-wise, I'm rather fond of this (http://i56.tinypic.com/2hwjkoy.jpg) one.

radmelon
2011-02-09, 11:51 PM
The Medusa has to be one of my favorite monsters. I'm surprised it took this long for it to be done.

For the pic, I like the second and third of the list the best.

Hyudra
2011-02-09, 11:54 PM
The Medusa has to be one of my favorite monsters. I'm surprised it took this long for it to be done.

For the pic, I like the second and third of the list the best.

The Medusa was one of the first monsters completed (Third, I think), but as with much/most of Oslecamo's work, it was badly in need of updating to make it more balanced & more fun to play. I'm hoping my stab at it hits the mark.

radmelon
2011-02-10, 12:00 AM
I can tell you now it looks exceedingly fun to play.

ScionoftheVoid
2011-02-10, 05:21 AM
The Medusa looks incredible, I can only find one thing obviosuly in need of fixing. The Snake Nest ability should specify they need to qualify for the bonus feat unless it is Weapon Finesse, since bonus feats do not need to be qualified for by default. The suffocation effect seems a bit powerful, but not so much so that I would say it is wrong. In any case, your high standard of work continues as always, Hyudra.

Saidoro
2011-02-10, 10:15 AM
A few small quibbles with medusa
Serpentine stance III says it comes at third level instead of fifth
The feint option of force gaze uses a skill check (which scales with HD) opposed by a will save (which scales with 1/2 HD at best) The gorgon will almost always be winning these contests and will usually be getting a sizable bonus out of it, this seems a bit much.
Medusa's kiss seems like it should kick in earlier than 7th level

Hyudra
2011-02-10, 10:31 AM
Thanks Saidoro, Scion.

February 10th, 2011 changes to Medusa:
Fixed Serpentine Stance III, where it said it was gained at third level instead of fifth.
Changed the feint option of Force Gaze so the victim uses their choice of sense motive or will save.
Stressed that the bonus feat that you get in Snake Nest needs to be qualified for, if you're not getting Weapon Finesse.
Medusa's Kiss is okay where it is, I think. It should leave the Medusa being very careful about how she lays down her Chthonic Flash, and it comes at the same time you're getting the stronger AoE, so your allies can gauge whether they want to risk having to make that reflex save to skip through the area, knowing you can fix them. Also, the ability has a root in lore as a magical power that not every Medusa has, so sticking it at the end as a capstone makes it sufficiently rare.

Feb 10, 2011 changes to Troll:
Rend now only has a 50% chance of working if you use Furor, so there's a choice to be made in declaring your use of Furor.
Tumescent Recovery no longer grants healing each time you take indirect damage (indirect damage was hard to calculate and the overall effect was complicated) but now lets you force rerolls on all damage taken for the duration.
Violent Onslaught now has a 'rage mode', where a troll brought to low health, or a troll that offs an enemy, can use the ability again, with a small bonus.

Edit: I must admit I'm sort of stuck on the Storm Giant. Not only is it a much higher level than I'm typically comfortable doing (I prefer CR 4-8 creatures), but it's more or less a hybrid role. I'm going on a schpiel here, so bear with me.
For those that don't know, hybrid is when you're fulfilling two roles at once. The Storm Giant is, in the creature entry, a brute force fighter who is also a blaster... someone who deals damage with spells or spell like abilities. Hybrid is really hard to design right, and you'll find this is the case in D&D and any other games you find classes, roles or powersets. Why have someone who can do two things fairly well when you can have another person who does one thing really well? This is stressed in the Storm Giant's case because the two things he's doing are just different ways of doing the same thing: dealing damage. So there's not necessarily versatility there. There's a few ways you can deal with bringing hybrid classes up to par:
You can make the creature as good as class X at class X's role and as good as class Y at class Y's role, but you're balanced in part by not being able to do both X or Y at the same time. This creates an issue where you risk overshadowing X or Y, and you have to find a way to keep those classes relevant without falling back into the trap of 'why be mediocre at two things when you could be fantastic at one?'. This is hard to set up unless you're in a position to balance all classes at the same time (like, if you're designing a game from the ground up) and notoriously hard to balance: I can't think of a case in 3.5 where it was handled well (Maybe Beguiler?). The 3.5 Druid is a case of a class where this approach was taken and handled poorly.

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You can make a class less than fantastic at X and Y, but capable of doing X and Y at the same time. If you're a melee/healer class, then you're healing at the very same time you're swinging your hammer into faces. This is actually a really good option, but it's a little overused and tends to dilute the flavor and impact of doing X or Y when you're doing XY all the time. The 3.5 Duskblade is one example of this type of hybrid done fairly well. The 3.5 Hexblade is an example of this type of hybrid done poorly.

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You can make the class less powerful than X or Y in their individual roles, but make the interaction between X and Y worthwhile. This is what I tried to do with Storm Giant. By stomping on people, you set them up to make your blasting more effective, and by blasting people you add effect to your punches. As to the merits & flaws in this, I'll get to that later, when I start talking specifically about the issues I'm facing with the Storm Giant.
Now, here's another complicating point: Blasting, by and large, sucks. It's basically Evocation, and Evocation is the worst school of magic. Why? It's about dealing damage and damage dealing is one of the most inefficient ways to end fights in 3.5. That's why the most effective characters tend to be ones who can either end battles without dealing damage or those who can deal a metric truckton of damage. With previous giants, I generally aimed for them to deal that metric truckton of damage and have a few abilities that made them good at dealing with the stuff that ended fights early.

So now I'm facing the Storm Giant. The giants kings of giantkind. The most highly evolved and badass giants you're liable to run into without looking for something more obscure in splatbooks. After talking to GorgonDantess on IM, my thoughts are:
In the end, he's not a great brawler and not the best blaster, so while he might come across as powerful at first glance, he may well be mediocre in play.
The Thunder & Lightning surges are supposed to make the interaction & alternating between brawling and blasting worthwhile, but the effects fall short (unless you consider the borderline OP utility of Thunder Step and Lightning Palm).
There's also the issue of being easily shut down. If you can't deliver the lightning damage, you're not going to be able to set off the thunder surges (which means you're rendered a less than stellar brawler). Similarly, if you can't deliver the physical attacks, you can't set off the lightning surges, which means you're just a less than stellar blaster.
And being a hybrid with no precedent or source material to draw from, there's not really any feats that lend themselves to supporting the Storm Giant's combos or playstyle. So you're left taking feats that either support the physical side of things, support the blaster side of things, or that support neither. This point and the point above it are big weaknesses of this approach to hybridization.
And ultimately, he's a damage dealer. The problem with dealing damage in 3.5 is that:
If you deal damage to a foe and he ultimately dies because of a failed saving throw, you didn't really contribute to the defeat, aside from maybe being a distraction.
Dealing damage becomes massively less useful at later levels; while AC doesn't keep up with attack bonuses (becoming obsolete later), The hitpoints to CR ratio skyrockets as the levels climb. By late levels you're looking at round after round of wearing down your opponents, and even with spells, protections, spell resistances and stacked saving throws, it's generally more effective to just go for the save or lose.
These issues are why I tend to give most of my brutes a decent alternative to dealing damage at high levels, be it taking a different role (tanking, defending, battlefield control) or just giving them a save or lose effect of their own. I was going for this with Lightning Palm, but while Lightning Palm is powerful, it needs to be set up, and by the time you do that, the fight may be over. And if you can't set it up or trigger it, then you're demoted to dealing irrelevant damage and hoping to be a distraction, like the higher level evokers, fighters and monks.
So that's where I'm at, in interpreting Stormy. That isn't to say he's unplayable in his current state (he isn't), but there's flaws there and even thinking on it on & off for a week or so I'm not sure how to go about it. Thoughts, ideas, preferences on the direction Stormy gets taken?

Kobold-Bard
2011-02-10, 02:09 PM
Karsite

http://petesfr.wdfiles.com/local--files/the-children-of-netheril/96073.jpg

Class:
Hit Dice: d8
{table]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Special
1|+0|+0|+2|+0|Karsite Body, Eldritch Balance, Magic Draining Strike[/table]
Class Skills 4+Int Mod (x4 at 1st level): Bluff, Concentration, Craft, Diplomacy, Gather Information, Intimidate, Knowledge (History), Knowledge (Planes), Profession, Sense Motive.

Proficiencies: Karsites are proficient with simple & martial weapons, light armour & shields.

Class Features:

Karsite Body (Ex): At first level the Karsite loses all racial traits and features, and gains the features of the Humanoid type. It is Medium sized and has a base land speed of 30ft.

Karsites gain no natural weapons or armour, but they do gain Spell Resistance equal to 10+HD+Cha Mod.

Karsites all have a pure white streak of hair and a single eye that is unusually pale blue. This bizarre eye grants them a +2 on Intimidate checks.

Eldritch Balance (Ex): Karsites have a natural block when it comes to using magic, due to the lasting vengeance the God of Magic laid down upon the Karsite's forebears. They suffer a racial 20% spell failure when they try to cast a spell (even Divine spells), but not SLAs. This reduces by 1 for every HD the Karsite gains after it takes this class to a minimum of 0. They may still use magic items as normal.

In exchange though, they have learned a technique to turn the magic of their enemies to their advantage. Whenever a spell fails to penetrate their spell resistance they heal 2HP/level of the spell, including Metamagic adjustments (0 level spells heal 1HP).

Rather than benefit from this healing the Karsite may instead choose to store this healing as Charge Points, they may have a maximum number of Charge Points stored at any one time equal to their HD. By spending 2 points/level of the spell in question (0 level spell require 1 Charge Point), the Karsite may treat themselves as being of an appropriate class (effective Cster level equal to their HD) & the spell as being on their class spell list for 1 round for the purpose of activating spell trigger & spell completion items.

Magic Draining Strike (Su): The Karsite's inability to use magic can actually be turned into a weapon to use against their foes. 1/round, if the Karsite makes a successful melee attack against a target and deals at least one point of damage, they may choose either the creatures weapon, armour or shield. Any magical enhancements on this item are suppressed for 1 round.

At 7HD the Karsite may choose any magical item on the target (except artefacts). At 14HD they may dispel a single active spell effect on the creature.

If the Karsite cannot identify a particular item/effect in their chosen category (weapon, armour, shield / other magic items / spell effects) then a dice is rolled by the DM to choose the effected one randomly.

Comments:
Nice and simple, Karsite from the Tome of Magic.

Can't actually think of much to say, all the abilities are from the book. Left the no spellcasting thing in (reduced to Spell Failure rather than flat out impossibilty) because it's part of the flavour. If you reckon it should go then let me know.

Hyudra
2011-02-10, 03:33 PM
While Karsite looks good, I wonder if it's perhaps too good a 1 level dip. The lack of full BAB and arcane spell failure kind of balances that out.

Um, other issues, lemme think... The charge points & spell trigger/completion items. What's your effective caster level? Forgive me if I'm wrong, but I know that when you use a spell completion item & don't actually have spellcasting (such as a low level paladin), your effective caster level is treated as zero. It stands to reason, by extension, that you'd want to know your effective caster level as a Karsite, lest you be considered a level 0 caster (making it kinda lame).

Changing topics to my monsters: Medusa (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10343087&postcount=418) and Troll (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10262043&postcount=191) have been tweaked (see 2 posts above this one for how). Minotaur (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10295137&postcount=275), I can't find anything left to tweak, and it feels pretty solid. It's a class I think I'd really enjoy playing, myself, so I'm hoping others feel the same way. Storm Giant (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10166809&postcount=99) is just a headache, for reasons stated in the post above. Feedback is appreciated on all counts.

Kobold-Bard
2011-02-10, 03:36 PM
While Karsite looks good, I wonder if it's perhaps too good a 1 level dip. The lack of full BAB and arcane spell failure kind of balances that out.

Um, other issues, lemme think... The charge points & spell trigger/completion items. What's your effective caster level? Forgive me if I'm wrong, but I know that when you use a spell completion item & don't actually have spellcasting (such as a low level paladin), your effective caster level is treated as zero. It stands to reason, by extension, that you'd want to know your effective caster level as a Karsite, lest you be considered a level 0 caster (making it kinda lame).

I did think that, that's why I left the Spell Failure in.

Added a line saying Effective CL = HD for that ability.

Edit: I've retaken up the Chimera, take it off the abandoned list.

Hyudra
2011-02-10, 06:25 PM
Chimera is off the abandoned list. It was never on, but it's now off.

Lord_Gareth
2011-02-10, 06:28 PM
Not to offend the person who so graciously volunteered to take up Illurien, but I had wondered if the awesome and beneficent Hyudra might have an interest in the Lady of the Myriad Glimpses?

Hyudra
2011-02-10, 06:48 PM
I'm not interested in the Illurien, personally. I don't like longer classes, and I prefer embellishing one trick ponies so they're fully fleshed out classes, rather than working with 15+ level monsters that already have scads of stuff.

Besides, there's just not much fluff going for it. I read the monster entry in the official material and I still don't really get what it's supposed to be or what role it's supposed to take in the campaign.

Zemro
2011-02-10, 09:44 PM
Blah, after loosing my original changes by accident last night, I'm finished the first wave up updates to the Marrash.

February 8th
More spelling and grammar fixes.
DC calculations made more concise.
Disease Sense can now pinpoint locations easily and scales range based on HD
Flight moved to a separate ability at fifth level
February 10th
Plauged Movement renamed Glide
Disease Carrier changed to include a natural disease and move to first level
Draw Disease changed and move to second level
New Ability (Outbreak) added at second level to cover disease carrier's previous functions
Intensify Infection changed
Archer's Presence moved to third level
New Ability (Disease Healing) added at third level
Afflictive Ammunition Updates to reflect changes to the disease mechanics.

However, I still have some changes and updates to make to the fourth and fifth levels of the class (particularly Takliff Curse). But I was hoping to find out if the changes and revisions done to the first three levels were going in the right direction, as if I'm not it'd be better to find out before I finish them then afterward.

I'm leaving to head back home now, and I hope to put up some commentary later this evening in addition to continuing with the Marrash.

Saidoro
2011-02-10, 10:40 PM
Made changes to the Razor Boar.

Added Surge of Force, Hard to Kill, Wrench, Barrel Through, and Unstoppable Rampage
Made sharp tusks make tusks adamantine
Hopefully this'll make playing it a bit less samey.
It still needs an activeish ability for 8th level and possibly one at 5th level but my idea well for this thing has run a bit dry at the moment so I'm putting it on the back burner until I have more ideas for it. Any suggestions/critiques welcome.

Hyudra
2011-02-11, 12:02 AM
Marrash (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10308045&postcount=324)
With the changes to disease sense, what is the merit of using the swift action to boost disease sense? It seems it more or less does the same thing, but with better range, but it should be stated more clearly. It's vague.
Flight looks good.
I'd reword, under Disease Carrier, where you say: "Infected creatures must make another save at the beginning of their turn or taken an additional 1 point of Dex damage, success means they've beaten the disease and make no further saves unless reinfected" to state, instead, "Infected creatures must make another save at the beginning of each turn or take an additional point of Dex damage. Success on the save means they've beaten the disease and need make no further save unless reinfected."
It seems, almost, worse to successfully make the save. If you remove it, then you're opening yourself up to that 1d2-1d3 initial damage.
The drawn out damage is not stellar. I mean, let's say you're a level 3 Marrash against an Ogre. The Ogre doesn't have particularly high dex (8 dex), but you're still facing a minimum of, what, seven rounds (with seven saving throws) before he succumbs? Until then you're... just lowering his AC by 1 every 2 rounds?
"If successful the Marrash traps a number of strains of the disease equal to half of his total result." - This is quite a few strains. I mean, if I'm level 3 and I'm rolling Fort, I'm getting, what, +7 on my fort save? Maybe +8? So I'm getting between 3 and 13 strains? Is this intended?
When I use Outbreak, does it use the standard incubation & drawn out sickness?
Not sure I love the 5 round wait for Intensify Infection.
Disease Healing: Not sure I like it. It's just that the value you're using to determine healing is relatively arbitrary in the grand scheme of the game, and it seems like you could abuse this pretty badly. Like, if you're level 6, you've got 22 con... and let's say you've got 4 diseases. One from a dire rat, one from a ghoul, one case of blue guts from having a teammate eat a troll and devil fever from a bad situation at a church.

Now the DM allows the group downtime, so your wizard can make magic items, your marshal can do his political stuff that he's doing for background & backstory, and so your rogue can get the training he needs to enter a prestige class. 1 month passes, and you've suddenly got 36 strains of each of the 4 diseases you carried.

So you're essentially able to heal yourself for 36 at 6th level, or remove 3 points of ability damage, no sweat.
Should be said, for Disease Healing, you get it at 3rd, but you can use the ability only once a day per 4 HD... which means you may well not be able to use it til 4th anyways.
"As an added benefit, whenever a Marrash would be required to loose strains" -> lose.
"As a standard action he can infect a piece of ammunition that deals piercing or slashing damage with Marrashi Fever, or a carried disease by consuming one of its strains." -> reads awkwardly with the comma in the middle of the underlined area there. End the sentence where the comma is, and have a new sentence like, "The Marrash may consume one of its strains to apply that to the ammunition instead."

Razor Boar (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10227868&postcount=139)
You should state whether Razor Boars can speak or not.
Surge of Force:
Ok, so I recognize this as one step forward in making the Razor Boar more active to play. That said, while it's a step forward, and it's a decison whether & when to use it, the fact that it's a swift action & it's only once a day at low levels means that it's not adding a ton to the round-by-round of combats. Get what I mean?

Like, (sorry to plug my own work, but) contrast with the Medusa. She also gets an ability that can be used as a swift action with a passive benefit at low level. Thing is, she gets two. So round by round, you're making a call on which to use. There's an active decision making process involved, as opposed to "This is probably going to be the hardest encounter of the day, so I'll use it."
The ability seems a little weak. Contrast with Barbarian. Admittedly, there's drawbacks to the Barbarian's Rage, but still.
Which leads me to wonder, is it perhaps problematic if you're stacking this & rage at low levels? That's a pretty sizeable bonus.
Hard to Kill:
Mildly concerned with how fast these are scaling and how quickly they're picked up. At 1st level I've got just one swift-action-for-one-round's-benefit ability. At 2nd I've got four. By 20th I've got 40?
The actual benefit is ok.
Wrench:
"Once per day per 2 HD after being struck and damaged by a piercing or slashing weapon the boar can move in such a way as to tear that weapon from their opponent's hands" -> needs a comma after HD and weapon.
"Weapons so disarmed remain stuck in the boar's hide until removed, an action that requires a successful touch attack against the boar followed by a disarm check as above if the boar is unwilling or a successful dc 5 heal check if the boar is willing" -> run on sentence. Kind of awkwardly constructed, even if I ignore how much is said. Break it down & make it easier to read?
"Those who fail the reflex save are treateed as flat-footed" -> treated.
"thos who fail by 3 or more are knocked prone" -> those
"thos who fail by 3 or more are knocked prone and considered flat-footed until they are no longer prone" -> I may be wrong, but I think prone targets are effectively flat footed anyways.
"A creature with a stuck natural weapon is pulled into the boar's square and can take no action beyond attempting to free itself, a full round action in which it makes a strength check opposed by the boar's constitution check, if the trapped creature rolls higher it pulls itself free and can move to any space adjacent to the boar, if the boar is successful the trapped creature takes bludgeoning and piercing damage equal to the boar's HD from the movement of its hide and sharp hairs." -> run on sentence.
Barrel Through:
Give examples for squares where terrain could reasonably be cleared.
"is dealt to destroy the source of cover the target doe not gain" -> does.
"the attack against the target haS no effect." -> miscapitalization there.
Unstoppable Rampage:
"At tenth level th boar's unstoppable" -> the.
"untoppable" -> unstoppable.

Edit

With GorgonDantess' input...

Troll revisions, Feb 11, 2011:
Changed Chomp (described above, in the changelog) back to Gnaw, but changed mechanics. It now lets the Troll bite, followed by making a Strength check against the foe. Each strength check you pass deals con damage and lets you make another strength check (with a penalty on the check and more con damage) until you fail.

Edit #2

Also, was discussing the critiquing responsibilities with Gorgondantess. Just formalizing the arrangement that's sort of come into play, what we'll be doing is having me try and get you guys to the nearly-done stage, and then having Gorgon check over your work to offer a second set of eyes and potentially give his vote.

By vouching for you guys as being nearly done, I'm essentially saying "I can't give any further input" and typically giving my own vote, so that'll be enough to get you on the master list.

With that in mind, just off the top of my head, the nearly dones include:
Thorn
Solamith
Bleakborn
Gray Jester
Gargoyle
Cloaker
Troll
Minotaur
Karsite
Dwarf Ancestor*
*I'm not vouching for Dwarf Ancestor. I think there's some general issues with the class, but my discussion of these issues with Chambers has led to something of a stalemate between us. Chambers has been asking for a while, for a second set of eyes to review the class.

So there's a bit of a backlog there, but the monsters overall are in pretty good shape. People have been making changes and listening to my feedback for a bit now, and we're just needing Gorgon to hammer them home, so to speak. Gorgon's currently working on Ethergaunt, so I imagine he'll be willing to give the necessary critiques and votes when he's done or nearly done.

Zemro
2011-02-11, 02:36 AM
Marrash (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10308045&postcount=324)
With the changes to disease sense, what is the merit of using the swift action to boost disease sense? It seems it more or less does the same thing, but with better range, but it should be stated more clearly. It's vague.

Well, there's still the small flavour perk of being able to tell exactly what disease someone possess. I suppose I could just roll that into the main ability somehow, or consider some other perks.


I'd reword, under Disease Carrier, where you say: "Infected creatures must make another save at the beginning of their turn or taken an additional 1 point of Dex damage, success means they've beaten the disease and make no further saves unless reinfected" to state, instead, "Infected creatures must make another save at the beginning of each turn or take an additional point of Dex damage. Success on the save means they've beaten the disease and need make no further save unless reinfected."

*nods* Thanks, wording things like this is not always my strong suit.


It seems, almost, worse to successfully make the save. If you remove it, then you're opening yourself up to that 1d2-1d3 initial damage.
The drawn out damage is not stellar. I mean, let's say you're a level 3 Marrash against an Ogre. The Ogre doesn't have particularly high dex (8 dex), but you're still facing a minimum of, what, seven rounds (with seven saving throws) before he succumbs? Until then you're... just lowering his AC by 1 every 2 rounds?

Well, you're likely to have a party, but I can see your point. I figured since you're have a chance to apply it every attack it shouldn't be too good. I could probably up the initial and recurring damage a step or two to start with, to either 1d3 and then 2 Dex, or start right off with 1d3 and then 2 Dex and Con. The latter almost seems overkill, but I suppose since you can't stack it?

I initially had making the save prevent reinfection for something like 1d4 rounds, but wasn't sure it would be necessary. Putting that in might round things off, and make a higher starting damage seem more reasonable?

As a side note apparently diseases require two successful saves in a row to cure yourself of one, which I had embarrassingly overlooked. It's pretty different as far as diseases go already, so maybe that's fine...


"If successful the Marrash traps a number of strains of the disease equal to half of his total result." - This is quite a few strains. I mean, if I'm level 3 and I'm rolling Fort, I'm getting, what, +7 on my fort save? Maybe +8? So I'm getting between 3 and 13 strains? Is this intended?

I may have tweaked it a little high, I figured there'd be more of an incentive to go through uses, but may have just twiched things from too low to too high. I was thinking around +6 on the save though, but it's quite likely I'm placing down different values for stats than you are.

Technically with a +6 the range would be from 6 to 13 though, as the lowest DC is 12 and you have to beat that to get the disease.


When I use Outbreak, does it use the standard incubation & drawn out sickness?

The intent is to bypass the incubation period, but yes, if you did get out of the battle alive you'd have a full blown case of whatever to deal with. I'll clarify.


Not sure I love the 5 round wait for Intensify Infection.

Me neither, I just wanted to get a number down to use as a starting point. I was thinking 1d4 rounds like a breathweapon might be better, but are you thinking shorter? longer? At-will?


Disease Healing: Not sure I like it. It's just that the value you're using to determine healing is relatively arbitrary in the grand scheme of the game, and it seems like you could abuse this pretty badly. Like, if you're level 6, you've got 22 con... and let's say you've got 4 diseases. One from a dire rat, one from a ghoul, one case of blue guts from having a teammate eat a troll and devil fever from a bad situation at a church.

Now the DM allows the group downtime, so your wizard can make magic items, your marshal can do his political stuff that he's doing for background & backstory, and so your rogue can get the training he needs to enter a prestige class. 1 month passes, and you've suddenly got 36 strains of each of the 4 diseases you carried.

So you're essentially able to heal yourself for 36 at 6th level, or remove 3 points of ability damage, no sweat.

I have never been in a game where I could get that sort of downtime, but yes I suppose you could heal 36hp... after waiting a month to do so. I can see you point but I'm not really feeling your example of abuse. It's also once per day, and you do lose that disease, since one of your comments earlier was about how getting disease wouldn't be straight forward, I don't quite follow.

It was mainly an idea I had, I figured it'd be nice to not have strains got to waste and have some option to curse diseases, and though adding in something to make in an interest option wouldn't hurt.

Should I tone down the rate? Should I tone down maximum strains? What would be the best direction to look in?

Your comments to seem to indicate that I'm gone from too low to too high on the strains, though. So I think I'll reduce those slightly.


Should be said, for Disease Healing, you get it at 3rd, but you can use the ability only once a day per 4 HD... which means you may well not be able to use it til 4th anyways.

I have no explanation for this... clearly I should read my writing better.


"As an added benefit, whenever a Marrash would be required to loose strains" -> lose.
"As a standard action he can infect a piece of ammunition that deals piercing or slashing damage with Marrashi Fever, or a carried disease by consuming one of its strains." -> reads awkwardly with the comma in the middle of the underlined area there. End the sentence where the comma is, and have a new sentence like, "The Marrash may consume one of its strains to apply that to the ammunition instead."

Fixed, as always thanks for the commentary.

PS. I'm looking at a couple monster from the unfinished list right now, and will have comments on them done before I go to bed.

EDIT: Here's one... kinda tired now I'll try and comment again on something tomorrow.

Dwarf Ancestor Listing the location of the original monster would be nice. (MMIV Pg 54, by the way)
No shield proficiencies? Interesting choice...
The body ability could stand to be cleaned up some, you might as well list the descriptions of the last three abilities with their name rather then having them listed twice.
Proficiencies could go by themselves above the ability, more like with a standard class entry rather then a monster one.
Might be best to note that Anscetral Spirit is 1 +1 per 4 HD, rather than character levels.
Further more, why not the Dwarven Ancestor as well? From a mechanical standpoint you're not really getting a lot of interesting things this level, and it's hardly unbalanced.. Technically a Warforged Bard using Inspire Courage could serve just as as the Ancestor at this level.
Why power attack as a bonus feat at second level? The only reason I wouldn't have taken it at first is because then my second level would be a waste. I'd either provide something different, or allow another feat to be chosen if power attack is already possessed.
Second level is kinda boring regardless I'm afraid. You may want to considering adding active options over passive benefits. Aside from being worse at bull-rushing and grappling our hypothetical Warforged Bard isn't much worse off in combat and will have a spell or two for options, despite his charisma penalty.
Third level really isn't any better, to be honest. It's a small boost to AC, damage, and some checks that don't really see a lot of use or benefit.
Consider building some sort of dungeon crasher analogue? If you're already so good at bull rushing, slamming people into walls to do damage seems both logical and dwarven.
Still favouring the Warforged Bard, he's getting second level spells at 4th, you're getting more fortification and a bonus you're not benefiting from.
Stone Hammer is neat, though while only effecting enemies is nice I'm not sure on the sense (not really going to complain though). Damage is unimpressive, it takes twice as much non-lethal as lethal to take an opponent down, and many creature are immune. Prone is nifty, but you're unlikely to be able to take advantage of it personally and you're not really hurting anyone much. Still, something like this could've been much cooler with some tweaking and earlier.
Blink Out is also neat, not sure if I'm a fan on the limitation though. This could also be tweaked and developed, and become a rather neat ability to have and use.
Unless he's physically doing this, why is it Ex? And if he is, would ripping the ground at people's feat provoke AoOs? The effect is decent, but boring and perhaps could use some clarifying the match the fluff up.
Sixth level is overall unimpressive for a capstone, fifth level was by far the high point of this class. I'd suggest developing things like that further instead of the passive buffs.

Hyudra
2011-02-11, 11:56 AM
Dwarf Ancestor
Further more, why not the Dwarven Ancestor as well? From a mechanical standpoint you're not really getting a lot of interesting things this level, and it's hardly unbalanced.. Technically a Warforged Bard using Inspire Courage could serve just as as the Ancestor at this level.

The issue was, with full BAB coupled with the class' Str bonuses (which I don't agree with, personally), it was already getting a lot of bonuses to attacks, which all scales with the free power attack. Getting a further attack boost from the aura seemed overkill.

Gorgondantess
2011-02-11, 05:23 PM
Thorn:
Slumbering shots: I know you like the nonlethal damage thing, but don't give it bonuses the lethal damage one doesn't have- scrap the -2 to save for nonlethal damage.

Melee piercing strikes: remove the DR piercing AND the regeneration piercing and it still should be great.
Do those two things, and it goes on the list.

Solamith:
Foreign soulfire... I did say that it would be good with a summoned monster. If you want to change that, it's on the list. If you don't, it's on the list.

Bleakborn: despite what you've said, I don't believe you changed it to reflect my critiques.:smallconfused:

Gray Jester: 50' move speed is a little much for level 1.
Hideous Laughter: does the feint force them to make the save, or actually hitting them? Either way, that's a pretty silly high save DC for something that can be accomplished so easily.

Devour joy: "All laughing creature can"
Don't abbreviate randomly.
Anyways, I see no reason why a gray jester would ever use this. Those under the effects of a hideous laughter spell have pretty much already lost. This makes them not lose, and then weakens the jester.

Joy slaves: Ehhhh... I donno... that means you could get a bunch of characters equal to your ECL as joy slaves. Including wizards, who never use charisma. Kindof difficult, but very, very possible.

Gargoyle:

Hideous visage is pretty lame. First of all, just give it intimidate as a class skill- it fits. Secondly, do you realize how incredibly lame demoralize is? Shaken for 1 round, whoopdeedoo. It's a waste of a [S]standard move action, in other words.


Sudden strike should scale. Something like an additional 1d6 at 5 HD and every 5 thereafter? Don't want to give potential for a sudden striking beast, but by 6th level or so a mere 1d6 is looking pretty lame... let alone level 20.
These are still perfectly relevant, as well as some other critiques. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10284551&postcount=263) Don't make me tell you these things twice.:smallsigh:

Cloaker:
Engulf: can it make a bite attack every round?
Cloak: so, your gargantuan fire giant ally, you can carry them?:smalltongue:
Obscure vision: how much concealment?
Improved Engulf: Um... so it can make iterative attacks with its bite? Normally you can't do that, y'know.
Unnerve: scale!
Fear: scale! Also, panick is pretty powerful for 5th level. Start with frightened.
Nausea: scale!
Stupor: scale!

Troll: Text/table error: you still have it as gnaw.
Thrash: might want to let them make a jump check with a bonus as a part of the trip action.
Violent Onslaught: looks situational, and not always too useful, but fun!
Otherwise, looks good.:smallcool:

Minotaur: Looks good!

Karsite: SR is a bit low. Standard for high SR creatures is 10+HD+Cha mod.
0 level spells are usually considered 1/2 level 1 spells, and thus should heal 1 hp.
Otherwise, looks good!

Dwarf Ancestor: I've talked with Hyudra in the past on this, and I agree with her on all accounts pertaining to the Dwarf Ancestor.

Crafty Cultist
2011-02-11, 05:33 PM
Bleakborn: despite what you've said, I don't believe you changed it to reflect my critiques.:smallconfused:

I fixed the spelling and grammar errors you pointed out, moved create spawn up a level, and allowed the bleakborn to use brittle strike at will once it reaches max level. I think those were the main areas you critiqued on weren't they?

Kobold-Bard
2011-02-11, 05:49 PM
Fixed both those issues with the Karsite, they were both derps on part.

By popular demand and overwhelming common sense from everyone except
me the Chimera will have three heads, not 4.

Also: dunno if people missed It but I made some changes to the Quasi-God, detailed here - http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10340988&postcount=414

Hyudra
2011-02-11, 06:41 PM
Thanks for your hard work, GorgonDantess.

Karsite, Troll, Minotaur added to the main list. Waiting for the ok before I add Solamith.

Kobold-Bard - didn't miss the Quasi-God, and not ignoring it. It's just a hard creature to get one's head around in terms of role and general power/balance level, so I/we tend to shy away a little, and have trouble speaking with confidence when critiquing or interpreting it.

I'm about a quarter of the way through my secret project, codenamed XRD. That aside, I may step in and put out the Drow in the near future, unless anyone has recommendations/preferences on monsters that Oslecamo did that badly need updating. I can see myself doing Aboleth, Aranea, Centaur, Doppleganger, Dryad, Gnoll, Mind Flayer, Ogre Mage or Rakshasa. Yuan-Ti if I'm allowed to cheat and copy Serpentine Stances from Medusa.

Zemro
2011-02-11, 07:11 PM
Thorn:
Slumbering shots: I know you like the nonlethal damage thing, but don't give it bonuses the lethal damage one doesn't have- scrap the -2 to save for nonlethal damage.

Melee piercing strikes: remove the DR piercing AND the regeneration piercing and it still should be great.
Do those two things, and it goes on the list.

Done and done

Hyudra
2011-02-11, 07:16 PM
Thorn added to the main list.

Man, am I glad to finally be making headway against that 'Unfinished Monsters' list.

Gorgondantess
2011-02-11, 07:19 PM
Gnoll
I'd personally like to do the gnoll. They're my favorite monstrous humanoid race.


Mind Flayer
Maybe just scrap his and keep the psionic mindflayer (which maybe could use a revision here and there- I'd like to hear your thoughts on that).

Also, it's Gorgondantess. One word. Consistent capitalization.

Also, I thought the doppelganger was okay. Not perfect, but I'd play it.

Hyudra
2011-02-11, 07:35 PM
I'd personally like to do the gnoll. They're my favorite monstrous humanoid race.

Sure.



Maybe just scrap his and keep the psionic mindflayer (which maybe could use a revision here and there- I'd like to hear your thoughts on that).

Psionics really aren't my forte. I could look it over though.


Also, it's Gorgondantess. One word. Consistent capitalization.

So noted.


Also, I thought the doppelganger was okay. Not perfect, but I'd play it.

But it could be so much more!

No, in all honesty, I was just looking over the creatures on the list and naming ones I would be interested in doing up, if they were deemed broken or problematic. I haven't investigated each in turn, and was just naming names.

Zemro
2011-02-11, 09:12 PM
The current Doppleganger has some neat things going for it, but I personally might be interested in seeing what you may do with it (the Int focus actually bugged me a bit, but that's only because I thought the race would be perfect for a Cha-focused PrC if not for that.)

I think there's other monsters that could use the attention more though, the Doppelganger's in a pretty good place just not an amazingly interesting one.

After I'm in a better place with the Marrash I was thinking about looking to some of monsters that need updating or have been abandoned. Figure it might be a bit easier to do a monster when there's something to go on instead of from scratch.

Hyudra
2011-02-11, 09:20 PM
I'm not dedicating myself to updating Oslecamo's work exclusively, either. If there's other classes, ideally between 4 and 8 levels, that are sorely in need of tweaking, I could update those.

There's no creatures that I'm craving to do, at present, so I might as well work on the boring and the flawed, from the bad old days.

Gorgondantess
2011-02-11, 09:26 PM
So noted.

...I see what you did there.:smalltongue:

Makiru
2011-02-11, 09:38 PM
Ok, I'll put the summoned monster clause back on to Foreign Soulfire and finally put this guy behind me! It's been a long time coming, but I'm glad to finally get it done.

Hyudra
2011-02-11, 11:07 PM
Aaand Solamith is on the main list.

ScionoftheVoid
2011-02-12, 06:14 AM
Gargoyle:
These are still perfectly relevant, as well as some other critiques. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10284551&postcount=263) Don't make me tell you these things twice.:smallsigh:

I have now (hopefully) fixed those two complaints, though at six HD you're only throwing 1d6 of Sudden Strike if you only take ability once and don't take any of the abilities which synergise with it (extra natural weapons being obvious). Fair point on Hideous Visage, though it should be good now.

The only ones in your original critique that might still be relevant are Zealous Carvings' save boosts (and I can make it only one save if you wish), Statuesque Perfection (which you still haven't given any reasons for) and Stone Cold's very long list of immunities (which now covers everything a Construct's does, plus a bit for being an object), which I can spoiler if necessary or cut down if you give suggestions. I'd have thought being an object would prevent taking actions but I added it explicitly anyway.

TheGeckoKing
2011-02-12, 06:48 AM
Righty-o, firstly Swarmshifter should be in the Templates/Prc section
Secondly, is it O.K if I redo the Aboleth (I.E is the original borked enough to warrant it) in the future? I remember requesting it, but as of now it's just a big fishy that casts spells and can flout pretty much every Knowledge (Whatever) requirement ever. :smallannoyed:

Kobold-Bard
2011-02-12, 07:39 AM
Chimera is proving annoying, but I shall persevere.

In the meantime I'm also claiming the Rast.

Hyudra
2011-02-12, 11:09 AM
I'm partial to the Aboleth, as one of the highest (if not the highest) points of my D&D gaming experience involved pitting my players against one.

So lemme ask - what would you do with the Aboleth? What do you see as the problems (aside from the fact that it's a boring fish beast with spells?), and how would you solve them? What kind of abilities would you make?

If you wanted to outline that, I could do the same, and others could say which approach best suited what they wanted out of the Aboleth.

Crafty Cultist
2011-02-12, 12:10 PM
The main attributes of an aboleth(at least in my opinion) are that they are giant aquatic monsters with magical powers of deception and mind control who have existed since before the current reality. Other than converting their natural combat abilities, any extra feature you add could reflect their ancient legacy or their enduring nature.

TheGeckoKing
2011-02-12, 12:42 PM
Errrgggg........we all know your ideas tend to be better than mine, so why i'm bothering I do not know. Regardless, the main problems are;


Grammar. This is self-explanitory.
The stat boosts are all over the place, srsly. Con, Cha, Str AND Int? Really? I'd focus on Int and Cha, with a splattering of Con.
Memory of the Eons was kinda my idea but then Oslecamo went and broke it by being lazy and saying it counts for everything, namely requirements. Blech.
Enslave needs a bit of nerfing, methinks.
It's not scary, when an Aboleth really should be if it's going to work. I imagined Aboleths when I first read about them to be mini Elder Evils that could live in impossible ways, and think impossible things that made your mind go *pop*.
And what I intend to do would be;


Memory of the Eons gets turned into a Bardic Knowledge that's a bit better (See: Take 20 for lower DCs)
I'll take a leaf from Archivist and do something a bit Dark Knowledge-y, although with different effects, to use the Aboleth's vast knowledge. Heck, I might say it stacks with normal Archivist stuff.
Overwhelming Intellect is nice, but I think that needs to be gutted and replaced with something insanity-inducing, because not having the ability to drive the mortals mad with your mind is unforgiveable on an Aboleth.
Something to do with the Long Dreaming. Maybe as a last resort the Aboleth can cocoon itself and heal off the damage, but needs to be cut out or it stays trapped, forever dreaming.
Continual Growth, as per Lords of Madness, which says Aboleths keep on growing, upto a Geological scale.
It also says Aboleths prefer eating "slimed" flesh. I can easily make something up for that.
Variants, variants, variants! The Aboleth is technically the Amphibious kind right now, but I would put an option in for the fully waterborne Aboleth, the Stygian Aboleth (Basically, fiendish qualities) and the Uobilyth, which is a Flying (Yes, I know) Aboleth, complete with alternate class features throughout the class.
The ability to remember it's ancestor's past victories for a morale bonus to saves, or even an insight bonus at the higher levels, using the memories of countless hunts.
In conclusion, I want to try and recapture some of that scariness the Aboleth has, and allow it to either be your average WARBLEGARBLEGRAAAAAA sea monster if that's really what they want to do (Take the Stygian path, more-or-less), but you can be the scheming horror from time's beginning, because who doesn't want to have a valid excuse to say "Just as Planned!"

The Antigamer
2011-02-12, 02:24 PM
Gray Jester: 50' move speed is a little much for level 1.

Alright, I'll make it 30' to start, and add +10 speed at HD 3 and HD 6.


Hideous Laughter: does the feint force them to make the save, or actually hitting them? Either way, that's a pretty silly high save DC for something that can be accomplished so easily.
From what I gathered of Oslecamo's original class, I think the mechanics were if you feinted before making the attack to hit the creature, you would add your full charisma modifier to the Hideous Laughter DC instead of 1/2 charisma. I changed the wording to try to make it more clear.


Devour joy: "All laughing creature[s] can"
Don't abbreviate randomly.
Anyways, I see no reason why a gray jester would ever use this. Those under the effects of a hideous laughter spell have pretty much already lost. This makes them not lose, and then weakens the jester.
Whoops, I thought I had changed the part about them stopping laughing. Now they get an extra save to stop laughing instead. If you think this is an unattractive ability, then there are three ways to improve it:
1. Hideous Laughter effects remain, with no new save attempt, after a Devour Joy.
2. No penalties for using Devour Joy.
3. Increase benefits of Devour Joy.
Which of those, or combination of those, should I implement to make the ability better?


Joy slaves: Ehhhh... I donno... that means you could get a bunch of characters equal to your ECL as joy slaves. Including wizards, who never use charisma. Kindof difficult, but very, very possible.
Yes, which is why I was considering having the ability be based on the combined HD of the creatures, like a cleric controlling undead, but Hyudra said she thought the 1/5 HD limit would probably work.

Hyudra
2011-02-12, 04:04 PM
Lemure
http://i53.tinypic.com/fwhd9g.jpg
Monster Class
Monster Manual, SRD

Class
HD: D12

{table=head]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will |Special
1st|+0|+0|+0|+0| Lemure Body, Bedeviled Fate, Truckle, Pawn of the Nine Hells
[/table]
Skill Points 2+Int per level
Class Skills: None.

Proficiencies: The Lemure is proficient only with its own natural attacks.

Lemure Body: The Lemure loses all other racial bonuses and gains Outsider traits, granting it Darkvision out to 60'. Lemures are initially medium sized creatures with a base movement speed of 20', possessing two claw attacks that deliver 1d4 + Str mod damage each and natural armor equal to their con modifier. Having a largely amorphous body build more to take punishment than to withstand it, the Lemure is poor at wearing armor. Even if the Lemure becomes proficient in wearing armor, any armor it wears has its armor check penalties increased by 150% (rounding down) and has its Maximum Dexterity Bonus halved.

Lemures do not speak, but those who spend at least a week in their company can learn to both understand its body language and interpret its whimpers, moans and mewling well enough to understand simple expressions such as 'danger', 'hate', 'gratitude' and so on. Lemures do have telepathy out to 5' per HD (maximum 50'), and can use it to communicate with any creature in range that has a language.

Bedeviled Fate: The Lemure is a shadow of whatever soul it was in life, the lowest form of devilkind. As such, it does not gain feats for gaining levels/HD as a character, instead gaining a progression of devilish abilities.

At three HD, instead of gaining a feat, the Lemure becomes immune to poison and gains a resistance to fire equal to its HD, with resistance to acid and cold equal to half its HD. It can also see under any kind of darkness, even deeper darkness.

At six HD, instead of gaining a feat, the Lemure grows to large size.

At nine HD, instead of gaining a feat, the Lemure gains improved grab with its claw attacks. Its claw attacks force a saving throw, inflicting the disease 'Devil Chills' to those who fail the save. The DC is 10 + ½ Lemure HD + Lemure Con, the initial damage is 1d6 Con, the secondary damage is death.

At twelve HD, instead of gaining a feat, the Lemure nauseates any foe that it diseases for 1d3 rounds. It gains the ability to make two claw attacks at any time it could make one.

Upon gaining its fifteenth HD, and every HD thereafter, the Lemure gains a bonus Dark Ascendancy point. The use and effects of these points are described in Pawn of the Nine Hells, below.

Truckle: The Lemure is the lowest of the low, a servant, a whipping boy, and a plaything for the more predatory devils. As such, Lemures are used to suffering. If a Lemure would fail a saving throw, or would drop to 0 hitpoints or below, it may reduce itself to a quivering, whimpering, defeated puddle. The Lemure becomes immune to the penalties of the failed saving throw and further demands of any saving throws that be made against it, and while it takes damage, it cannot go below one hitpoint.

In this puddle form, the Lemure may move half its base speed in distance and make a single claw attack only against a foe that shares a space with it. Its movement and attacks provoke attacks of opportunity, and are interrupted if the enemy hits and damages the Lemure with the attack. Alternately, as a full round action, the Lemure may attempt to draw itself back up, ending the puddle form and its various effects. Again, this action provokes attacks of opportunity and fails if the enemy strikes the Lemure. A Lemure in puddle state is incapable of doing anything other than moving, making a claw attack or attempting to resuscitate itself. Once a Lemure has resuscitated itself, it may not take puddle form again for 6 rounds (1 full turn).

At the end of any turn in which the Lemure was in puddle form, it must make a will save or a fortitude save, using whichever save has the lower overall bonus. The DC for this save is 1 +2 per turn spent in puddle form, +2 for every failed saving throw while in puddle form and +2 per successful attack suffered by the puddled Lemure. Should the Lemure fail the save, it perishes and is irrevocably destroyed.

Pawn of the Nine Hells: The pathetic state of the Lemure's existence is not permanent, and just as the pawn may cross the chessboard and become a queen, the Lemure can become something more. A Lemure that successfully makes it through the requisite encounters and gains the experience needed to gain a level also gains an Dark Ascendancy point. The Lemure does not gain these points if the level was not successfully fought through and conquered by the will of the player (In short, a campaign that started at a level higher than one would not give the Lemure any Dark Ascendancy points for the levels it automatically gained). Lemures gain 1 Dark Ascendancy point for taking a level in this class.

A Lemure may, upon gaining a level, spend its Dark Ascendancy points. This causes the Lemure to lose the Lemure monster class levels and features it has, replacing a number of class levels it currently has (including the Lemure level, which is mandatory) with levels in a devil monster class. It cannot take more levels in the new monster class than it had Dark Ascendancy points. In making this change, it must take at least half the maximum number of levels the devil class has (So to become a Pit Fiend, which has a maximum level of 20, the Lemure must spend at least 10 Dark Ascendancy points).

In addition to retroactively gaining the feats that were denied to it for being a Lemure, the ex-Lemure also gains several benefits (these benefits stack, so spending 10 points would grant the 5 point and 10 point benefit):
If it spent 5 or more points, it gains a bonus feat that it meets the prerequisites for.
If it spent 10 or more points, it gains bonus experience sufficient to give it another level.
If it spent 15 or more points, it gains another bonus feat it meets the prerequisites for.
If it spent 20 or more points, it gains enough experience to give it yet another level.

Comments
The Lemure. It sucks, it's pathetic, nobody would want to play it.

So I'm thinking, "let's make that a class feature!"

The Lemure is the lamest of the lame, the lowest of the low, a whimpering puddle of soul flesh that exists to be kicked around by things meaner and more horrible than it is. So you get a class that sucks... and actually works against you as you gain levels (chances are, anyways). But if you stick it out, you get to become a badass devil, and your group can hardly fault you for being a little more powerful as a result, because you damn well earned it, didn't you?

Changelog
Changes, Feb 14, 2011:
The puddle form moved from Pawn of the Nine Hells and into its own ability, named 'Truckle'.
Lemures gain a Dark Ascendancy point for taking a level in the class. This simultaneously fixes an issue with the example given and the ugliness of the 4-9-14-19 progression for abilities (changed to 5-10-15-20).
Thanks to Saidoro & TheGeckoking.

TheGeckoKing
2011-02-12, 04:16 PM
Trust Hyudra to make a LEMURE playable. Looks O.K to me, although I'd personally be hard-pressed to play a Lemure instead of whatever devil i'd promote myself to anyway. Maybe my ego is just that massive :smallwink:

Hyudra
2011-02-12, 04:57 PM
Righty-o, firstly Swarmshifter should be in the Templates/Prc section

Moved Swarmshifter.


Errrgggg........we all know your ideas tend to be better than mine, so why i'm bothering I do not know. Regardless, the main problems are;


Grammar. This is self-explanitory.
The stat boosts are all over the place, srsly. Con, Cha, Str AND Int? Really? I'd focus on Int and Cha, with a splattering of Con.
Memory of the Eons was kinda my idea but then Oslecamo went and broke it by being lazy and saying it counts for everything, namely requirements. Blech.
Enslave needs a bit of nerfing, methinks.
It's not scary, when an Aboleth really should be if it's going to work. I imagined Aboleths when I first read about them to be mini Elder Evils that could live in impossible ways, and think impossible things that made your mind go *pop*.
And what I intend to do would be;


Memory of the Eons gets turned into a Bardic Knowledge that's a bit better (See: Take 20 for lower DCs)
I'll take a leaf from Archivist and do something a bit Dark Knowledge-y, although with different effects, to use the Aboleth's vast knowledge. Heck, I might say it stacks with normal Archivist stuff.
Overwhelming Intellect is nice, but I think that needs to be gutted and replaced with something insanity-inducing, because not having the ability to drive the mortals mad with your mind is unforgiveable on an Aboleth.
Something to do with the Long Dreaming. Maybe as a last resort the Aboleth can cocoon itself and heal off the damage, but needs to be cut out or it stays trapped, forever dreaming.
Continual Growth, as per Lords of Madness, which says Aboleths keep on growing, upto a Geological scale.
It also says Aboleths prefer eating "slimed" flesh. I can easily make something up for that.
Variants, variants, variants! The Aboleth is technically the Amphibious kind right now, but I would put an option in for the fully waterborne Aboleth, the Stygian Aboleth (Basically, fiendish qualities) and the Uobilyth, which is a Flying (Yes, I know) Aboleth, complete with alternate class features throughout the class.
The ability to remember it's ancestor's past victories for a morale bonus to saves, or even an insight bonus at the higher levels, using the memories of countless hunts.
In conclusion, I want to try and recapture some of that scariness the Aboleth has, and allow it to either be your average WARBLEGARBLEGRAAAAAA sea monster if that's really what they want to do (Take the Stygian path, more-or-less), but you can be the scheming horror from time's beginning, because who doesn't want to have a valid excuse to say "Just as Planned!"


Alright. Go for it. Just try to add a little more in the way of active abilities throughout. It sounds like you're adding a fair bit of passives there.

TheGeckoKing
2011-02-12, 06:04 PM
Yay! Thanks for your support, Hyudra. I'll probably get onto it tomorrow, as it's just past 11:00pm in wet, windy Wales here. Also - Playable Lemure. How. The. Heck. Did. You. Do. That. :smalleek:

Hyudra
2011-02-12, 06:04 PM
It's not so playable, but that's the point.

TheGeckoKing
2011-02-12, 06:06 PM
Yes, but it's useable and you can turn into a puddle of goo. I know a person that would happily play a paraplegic monk to turn into a puddle of goo.

Lix Lorn
2011-02-12, 06:29 PM
Gestalt it with a monk. Take flaws. :smalltongue:

Gorgondantess
2011-02-12, 06:51 PM
Yes, but it's useable and you can turn into a puddle of goo. I know a person that would happily play a paraplegic monk to turn into a puddle of goo.

Turn into a puddle of goo? Look up the amorphous form spell and stagger out all of its abilities over the levels and don't gain any of the drawbacks. Bam, you're done.:smallamused:

TheGeckoKing
2011-02-12, 07:29 PM
Now see, i'm going to have to make that a Monk ACF now you've said that. :smallsigh:

Hyudra
2011-02-12, 08:10 PM
Critiques for Medusa and Lemure would be much appreciated. I can't critique my own stuff, and the only other council member I could depend on would be Gorgondantess, but I don't want to overburden him.

It would help much if anyone could give them a look over, assess balance, assess playability and whether abilities would be fun to use. Help me get to the point where I can ask Gorgondantess whether it's good to go on the list, without swamping him with stuff (I'd rather Gorgon critiqued some of the older monster classes, like he did recently, so we can get that list cleaned up).

Gorgondantess
2011-02-12, 08:48 PM
Critiques for Medusa and Lemure would be much appreciated. I can't critique my own stuff, and the only other council member I could depend on would be Gorgondantess, but I don't want to overburden him.

It would help much if anyone could give them a look over, assess balance, assess playability and whether abilities would be fun to use. Help me get to the point where I can ask Gorgondantess whether it's good to go on the list, without swamping him with stuff (I'd rather Gorgon critiqued some of the older monster classes, like he did recently, so we can get that list cleaned up).

Oh, snap, I didn't even notice you did the lemure. That's... interesting...:smallconfused:

TheGeckoKing
2011-02-12, 09:03 PM
@Gorgon
Your not really supposed to notice a Lemure, so Hyudra must be doing something right :smalltongue:

@Hyudra
Okey Dokey, but it won't be much (Too sleepy)

Lemure;
Lemure Body looks alright.
Bedeviled Fate is quite nifty, actually. Kudos to that.
Pawn of the Nine Hells is ok, but the whole "Turn into a puddle" feels like it should be its own ability.
Just asking, why did you ban gaining Dark Ascendancy points if starting beyond 1st level?
Typo at the very end - refers to level 5 and 10 abilities. I think you meant 4 and 9.
Looks useable to me, although get a second opinion on it if you can, as my judgement is iffy.


Medusa

Right at the start, it looks very overloaded. Not saying it is, but it might scare some balance-paranoid DM's.
How do you pronounce Chthonic, eh? :smalltongue:
Personally, I think it needs a permanent petrification at 20HD.
Might want the class to stack with initiator classes for IL, or at least make it available with a feat.
Medusa's Kiss is cool
I know this is gonna sound a bit annoying, but i'm not good with ToB so I can't really comment on the manuvers much, other than ask you - what gave you the idea to give it stances? Just curious.
A bit complicated looking, but it's like Incarnum - Get past the wall of text, and it's pretty cool. Good work so far.
So, yeah. Enjoy.

Saidoro
2011-02-12, 09:09 PM
I can't say I like the whole "suck now, awesome later" thing you built the lemure about, it's a pretty good implementation of that thing, yes, but I think the core concept is rather unfun. Make of this what you will.


Thoughts on the Cloaker:
1) Just looking at the table, I can tell that this is going to be an odd class. It has the HD, BAB, saves, and skills of a pseudo-caster, but while it does have a lot of spell-type abilities, it also is big on grappling, and holding down its victims. Should be interesting.
One other thing you might want to do, though, is list out the ability score bonuses in its own section. Though you may want to think on those ability score adjustments, too. They seem rather... Varied and large for a 5 level class. The cloaker is a generalist, and 1.4 stats per level isn't that much, especially not when they're mostly strength and charisma.
2) Cloaker Body is all kinds of fun. You aren't fast, but you have a climb speed, and the ability to be worn as clothing. And you eat cloaks for the people that wear you. Interesting adaption to give people an incentive to wear you. The only problem I can see with that is when you decide to fly off on your own, and leave your buddy without their magic cloak. Just a little awkward. That's why you'll probably want to ride around on someone who can afford to not have a cloak for part of the fight.
Also, if you get a chance, perhaps instead of them being "treated as though they had a base land speed of 30 ft for the purposes of using the jump skill", instead they can "ignore speed penalties to the Jump skill". Slightly more concise. More concise, yes, but it would also mean they would jump at a pathetically slow rate.
3) I was going to say something about Engulf being a little useless with it not working on creatures it's size, but that is fixed at 3rd level. Also, I like that you gave the bite a +4 on the attack, seeing its already at a -5 for being secondary(and no chance for multiattack) and I believe a -2 for being in grapple. -4, actually.
4) Just one thing you might want to clarify on engulfing leap, but if it is like a charge, do you have to move in a straight line? Also, if that is the case, can you charge through an ally's space by flying over them? Stuff like that would be good to mention in the entry. Yes, and depends on how tall they are. I'll update this.
5) Cloak is all kinds of useful, but some of the parts of it don't make as much sense, or require a little discrimination. Like the part where you can fly with the person wearing the Cloaker. Does this work even if the person is to heavy to be carried? Also, why can't it be spotted with Spot? When you see eyes and a mouth on someone's cloak, do you really have to know that it is a Cloaker to know that it isn't a cloak? If that makes any sense... Eh, that last bit isn't such a huge deal. I'll change the flying thing, Spot doesn't work because there is very little about a cloaker that distinguishes it from a cloak an most of that is hidden, Know(arc) is someone noticing that it isn't a magic item Know(dungeon) is them noticing that it is a cloaker.
6) Huh, the only thing about Shadow Shift that strikes me as odd is that you let the Cloaker have Mirror Image at will at 12 HD, while the pattern would indicate the at will would come at 15 HD. Also, in Obscure Vision and Mirror Image, could you modify the wording, so that it reads something like: "any creature wearing the Cloaker as a cloak", or something. There's no real pattern there, I was just giving it at will at the point where I thought it would no longer matter.
7) Obscure Features= Cool. Thanks.
8) Improved Engulf is quite useful. One problem I can see is where you make iterative attacks with a secondary attack, which already has a -5. Kind of odd. See comments on Gorgondantess's comment.
9) "cloaker through cloak"? Could you please make this read a little easier. Also, I think it is customary to capitalize the class name every time it is used. I think. Still, Mutual Defenses is interesting, and gives the squishy characters one more reason to wear the Cloaker. Working on this, class name can be capitalized or not I think.
10) Flight is straightforward. Okay
11) Huh... Moan could get interesting. First of all, it states that "anyone" in the area is affected. Does this include allies? Yes If so, are there ways for your allies to give themselves a better chance to avoid the consequences? Stuff cotton in their ears? Or multiclass to paladin, anything that'll make them not hear or not fear. Also, good move not letting them have Hold Monster till 9HD. Of course, by that point, Fear and Nausea are becoming a lot less useful, as things are getting immunities to match.

All in all, a really interesting, very odd class. A rather eclectic mix of abilities, and a lot of things to boost other members of the party. That last part may be the biggest worry, though, is how much is dependent on someone wearing the Cloaker. A Cloaker's player will probably be willing enough to just ride around outside of combat, but its going to want to jump around and engulf people once things get going. As I said, you'll want to be riding around on someone who can use the bonuses, but isn't dependent on them, the rogue who can use his cloak of the mountebank, not the sorcerer who needs his Security Blanket Cloak of Charisma.



Cloaker:
Engulf: can it make a bite attack every round? Yes, I'll clarify.
Cloak: so, your gargantuan fire giant ally, you can carry them?:smalltongue: You can only cloak your own size or one smaller( Probably should change this to include one bigger too.) I'll add something about encumbrance.
Obscure vision: how much concealment? 20% is standard, I'll specify.
Improved Engulf: Um... so it can make iterative attacks with its bite? Normally you can't do that, y'know. True, but its bite isn't exactly spectacular and this isn't game breaking. On the other hand that ability doesn't kick in until a fem levels later unless you leveled out of order, and as bladesmith pointed out getting iterative attacks with a secondary weapon is unintuitive. I'll probably just replace this with something making bite better in grapples.
Unnerve: scale!
Fear: scale! Also, panick is pretty powerful for 5th level. Start with frightened. Okay.
Nausea: scale!
Stupor: scale! I'll work on some scaling for these.

Reserving Chuul (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/chuul.htm).

Frog Dragon
2011-02-13, 04:59 AM
I have finally revamped the Mezzoloth (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9015485&postcount=1033).

I dropped a lot of SLA:s, and added the Fiendish Fury line, which I cooked up from reading this line in the Monster Manual 3. "Its wide-set eyes glow red when it's angry (which is almost always)."

From this, I figured that these things have some serious anger issues to work out, and I figured basing abilities on it being angry at things was suitably demonic.

Faey
2011-02-13, 07:52 AM
I've only recently found this thread, and I couldn't see any rules about requests, so hopefully I'm not doing this wrong...

I'd like to request Phaerimm. It's a Forgotten Realms specific race, most recent (and easiest to acquire) stats can be found in the Player's Guide to Faerun Web Enhancement.

Hyudra
2011-02-13, 11:43 AM
That's... interesting...
I can't say I like the whole "suck now, awesome later" thing you built the lemure about, it's a pretty good implementation of that thing, yes, but I think the core concept is rather unfun. Make of this what you will.

So noted. That said, I want to point out that there are a wide variety of playstyles, and there are players out there who like playing the underdog. I considered myself such for a long time, until I realized that I was more interested in studying the design of why the class sucked than I was in actually being a class that sucks. Keeping in mind that the Lemure is a one level class, it was my hope to try and appeal to that type of player.

I'm aware it's rather off the wall. It's an experiment, because I see our general goal (or at least, my general goal) as trying to do all the official monsters, and at some point we're going to have to tackle some tricky bastards, and it's hard to do that without running out of ideas/steam, if we don't think outside the box sometimes.


I've only recently found this thread, and I couldn't see any rules about requests, so hopefully I'm not doing this wrong...

I'd like to request Phaerimm. It's a Forgotten Realms specific race, most recent (and easiest to acquire) stats can be found in the Player's Guide to Faerun Web Enhancement.

Requesting is certainly allowed, Faey, though we no longer have the 'requests' list.

Not to discourage you, but generally speaking, requests aren't often answered with a new monster class in a short span of time. This is especially true for monsters that would be 20+ levels in total (by virtue of being CR 20+). Those who do have the ability and the skill to put together such a creature generally have their own projects that they're aiming to start (or monsters in progress they're aiming to fill).

As such, our standard line is "Your best bet is to make the monster yourself." Which doesn't fit here, because at the same time, our preference is that new people to the thread not make level 15+ classes (And Phaerim could easily be epic level). Perhaps you would be best off doing a few CR 5 or less monsters to get in the groove, find out what we're looking for & how we practice, then try and tackle the murderous sunflower aberrations yourself?

All of which is to say, I wish you luck in seeing your request answered, but I wouldn't hold my breath.

TheGeckoKing
2011-02-13, 03:28 PM
Aboleth

http://i636.photobucket.com/albums/uu89/Gecko-King/Abolethbynanya.jpg

Hit Dice: d8

{table=head]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Class Features

1st|
+0|
+2|
+0|
+2|Aboleth Body, Just as Planned, Primordial Path I

2nd|
+1|
+3|
+0|
+3|Aboleth Magic, Memory of the Eons, +1 Cha, +1 Int

3rd|
+2|
+3|
+1|
+3|Forbidden Dreaming, Primordial Path II, +1 Con

4th|
+3|
+4|
+1|
+4|Drowning Ooze, Endless Growth, +1 Cha, +1 Int

5th|
+3|
+4|
+1|
+4|Convert the Flesh, Primordial Path III, +1 Con

6th|
+4|
+5|
+2|
+5|Enslave the Mortals, +1 Cha, +1 Int

7th|
+5|
+5|
+2|
+5|Drowned in Nostalgia, Primordial Path IV[/table]

Skills Points at 1st Level: (4+Intelligence Modifier) x 4
Skills Points at Each Level: 4+Intelligence Modifier
Class Skills: The Aboleth’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Appraise (Int), Autohypnosis (Wis), Bluff (Cha), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Hide (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (All skills, taken individually) (Int), Listen (Wis), Search (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Speak Language (n/a), Spellcraft (Int), Spot (Wis), Swim (Str), and Use Magic Device (Cha)

Proficiencies : The Aboleth gains proficiency with it's natural attacks.

Class Features: The following are the Class Features of the Aboleth.

Aboleth Body (Ex): At 1st level, the Aboleth loses all other racial bonus and gains Aberration traits (Basically Darkvision out 60ft). It's a medium sized creature with a base speed of 20ft and a swim speed of 40ft, and can speak Common and Aquan. It has two natural tentacle attacks dealing 1d4+Str Mod damage each. The Aboleth grows one extra tentacle as a natural attack for each 4 HD it possesses (3 tentacles with 4 HD, 4 tentacles with 8 HD, 5 tentacles with 12 HD, and so on). The Aboleth takes no penalty for attacking with all their tentacles in a full attack. The Aboleth has no limbs capable of fine manipulation, but can use his tentacles for somatic components of spells, and if an Aboleth's tentacles are cut off by any means, the tentacles grow back in 1d4 hours.

Just as Planned (Ex): At 1st level, the Aboleth can use it's vast, almost encyclopedic knowledge to take advantage of the enemies weaknesses.
Once per day as a move action the Aboleth may use this effect on any one enemy within 60ft. The Aboleth gains another use of this ability for every 3HD the Aboleth has. The target of this ability must make a Reflex Save with a DC equal to 10 + The Aboleths Int Mod + The Aboleths HD/2 or be affected by the following condition, which depend on the Aboleth's HD, and last for the Aboleths Int Mod worth of rounds. An Aboleth may induce a lesser condition if they so wish to.

{table=head]Aboleth's HD|Effect
1-3|Dazzled
4-6|Entangled
7-9|Sickened
10-12|Fatigued
13-15|Prone
16-19|Panicked
20+|Death*[/table]
*The target must make a secondary Fortitude save (Same DC as the first save) or die on the spot via the Aboleth's machinations.

Also, the Aboleth may apply its vast knowledge to other aspects of life. Aboleth levels stack with Archivist (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20051007a&page=3) levels to determine how many different effects the Aboleth can induce with its Dark Knowledge, and how many times per day the Aboleth can use its Dark Knowledge ability. Note that the Aboleth only gains Dark Knowledge abilities if it takes level(s) in Archivist. Lastly, the Aboleth may substitute the Knowledge checks required to use the Dark Knowledge class ability with an Autohypnosis check of the same DC.

Primordial Path (Ex): At 1st level, the Aboleth chooses a path to pick, determining the subspecies of Aboleth it is. At each level indicated above, it gains the bonuses indicated below. Once it chooses a path, only a Wish may change it, as it is akin to changing your entire race.

Amphibious Path:

The Amphibious Aboleth is one of the more commonly seen Aboleth, as it is normally the type of Aboleth that is caught running a cult of madmen, or advising a king in disguise, with ruinous words and plots. They thrive on infiltration and illusionary, and see the greatest asset to life as being as flexible as possible.

I - It gains the Aquatic Subtype, and the Amphibious quality. It also gains two 1st level Illusion spells as SLA's usable twice per day each, to hide its gurgling voice from the land dwellers and infiltrate their society. When the Aboleth gains the Aboleth Magic class ability, it loses the SLA's and instead adds them to the list of spells the Aboleth can cast. As a small bonus, they also gain one extra use per day of their Aboleth Magic class ability when they gain it.

II - The Aboleth can make varied and wondrous illusions at this point, far beyond its other brethren. When they gain this ability, they choose any 2nd level Illusion spell. Add this spell to the list of spells the Aboleth can use for its Aboleth Magic ability.

III - The Aboleth can connect itself to the illusions it makes to taint its opponents. A number of times per day equal to its Cha Mod, when a creature would interact with an illusion spell cast by the Aboleth, the Aboleth may end the spell and force the creature interacting to make a Fort save, as if it has been hit by one of the Aboleth's tentacles (As per Convert the Flesh).

IV - The Aboleth finally masters its illusionary abilities. Any illusions cast by the Aboleth lasts one round longer than they normally would. Also, at 9HD and every 3HD after that, the Aboleth may add one more Illusion spell to their list of spells usable by Aboleth Magic, with a maximum spell level equal to half their HD.

Aquatic Path:

A more "pure" Aboleth, the Aquatic Aboleth is sneakier than other Aboleths, and is more commonly seen, if seen at all, stealing treasures from a water temple for it's plans, and inducing absolute terror into the hearts of coastal towns, to feed its own ego. The Aboleth is even more of a purist than other Aboleths, seeing itself as the original creations of The Blood Queen Piscanthes, and all others as deformed imitations. The Aquatic Aboleth thrives especially on being being fluid and flexible.

I - It gains the Aquatic Subtype (But not the Amphibious quality), it's Swim Speed increases to 60ft, and it gains a bonus to Swim checks equal to half it's HD (Minimum 1). The Aboleth also gains an untyped bonus to their AC equal to their Cha Mod (Minimum 1), as the Aboleth's fluid movements make it hard to make a good hit.

II - Its slimy skin and fluid movement lets it function in many ways as if they were one size category smaller. Whenever the Aboleth is subject to a size modifier or special size modifier for an opposed check (such as Hide), the Aboleth is treated as one size smaller if doing so is advantageous to the character. The Aboleth is also considered to be one size smaller when "squeezing" through a restrictive space. The Aboleth can use weapons designed for a creature one size smaller without penalty. However, the space and reach of the Aboleth remain those of a creature of their actual size. The benefits of this racial trait stack with the effects of powers, abilities, and spells that change the subject's size category.

III - The Aboleth's Swim Speed increases to 80ft, and the Aboleth gains a continual Freedom of Movement effect on its person at all times.

IV - The Aboleth's swimming skills become unparalleled, and it can avoid most hazards effortlessly. Once per day per 6HD the Aboleth can treat any one save it makes as an automatic success, but only while it is underwater.

Stygian Path

The brute of Aboleths, the Stygian Aboleths are the Aboleths most commonly seen in old sailors tales, mixed up with kraken and leviathans but feared regardless. They mainly live on the plane of Baator known as Stygia, but can easily find ways to get to other planes, and raise hell there. The Stygian Aboleth values power and strength above none other, viewing a bloody pulp as the best form of an enemy.

I - The Aboleth gains the Aquatic Subtype, the Amphibious quality, and the Extraplanar subtype, native to a layer of Hell known as Stygia. The Aboleth may also treat itself as an Outsider if it would be beneficial. It also gains a bite attack dealing 1d4 + Str Mod damage, which can be treated as a tentacle attack if that would be beneficial (namely, making a full attack and the Convert the Flesh ability).

II - The Aboleth grows more and more, beyond other subspecies, and so may treat it's HD as 4 higher to determine how may tentacles it has. The Aboleth also gains vicious barbs on it's tentacles, meaning when it hits a victim, that victim bleeds out and takes one point of untyped damage at the start of the next round, per tentacle that hit it.

III - The Aboleth gains a bonus to Intimidate equal to 1/4 its HD because of its imposing form, and its thick skin gives it DR 5/Magic. The DR increases by 5 for every 5HD the Aboleth has.

IV - The Aboleth is so imposing they can easily put the fear of death into the mortal creatures. When the Aboleth makes a full-attack, it may make an demoralization check as an Immediate action at no penalty.

Uobilyth Path

The Uobilyths (Or Flying Aboleths) are the enigma of the Aboleth race. While other Aboleths are generally malicious and schemers of a Lawful Evil bent, Uobilyths are nearly always Chaotic Neutral, more amoral than malicious and intolerant of endless scheming, instead dependent on their never-ending imagination. The Uobilyth is the most common adventurer, as the Uobilyth values freedom and free-thinking above all else, something multiple egotistic Aboleths tend to unwittingly crush.

I - The Aboleth gains the Air subtype, loses their Swim Speed, and gain a permanent Feather Fall effect on their person as a Mundane effect. Also, a number of times per encounter equal to their Con Modifier, the Aboleth may empty out their flotation sacs to make a trip attempt to every creature in a 60ft line, using the Aboleth's statistics when applicable. If they do use this breath attack, their flight speed (if any) is reduced by 10ft for 1 round.

II - The Aboleth's flight-fins grow strong enough for limited flight, and so the Aboleth gains the ability to fly with a speed of 20ft (Poor) up to Con Modifier hours per day. The Aboleth must start and end any flights on land/water if possible, and if they are in mid-flight when they are unable to fly any more, they fall out of the sky harmlessly (as per their Feather Fall ability). At 4th level, the Aboleth can fly indefinitely at a speed of 40ft (Average).

III - The Aboleth learns how to Slime Bomb its opponents in glorious warfare. It can, for Cha Mod rounds per day (split up however the Aboleth wishes), can make any creature it flies over make a Fort Save or be affected as if it were hit by one of their tentacle attacks (See Convert the Flesh for Fortitude Save and effect).

IV - The Aboleth's flight speed increases to 60ft (Average), and once per day per 4 HD it can break the sound barrier for a split-second, and create a shockwave of sound. As a move action, it can move triple its flight speed while flying, and any creature beneath the Aboleth at the beginning or end of the move action takes 1d12 points of Sonic Damage, with a Reflex Save to halve the damage that has a DC of 10 + Con Mod + HD/2

Aboleth Magic(Su): Beginning at 2nd level the Aboleth can use the following spells at the following levels/HD a total number of times per day (In total, not per each spell) equal to it's HD/2, as SLAs;


2nd - Hypnotic Pattern
7th - Illusionary Wall
9HD - Mirage Arcana, Persistent Image
11HD - Programmed Image, Veil
13HD - Project Image


Memory of the Eons(Ex): At 2nd level and beyond, the Aboleth can access it's ancestors memories for a vast pool of information. An Aboleth can make any Knowledge check using it's skill points in Autohypnosis instead of the relevant Knowledge skill, although the Aboleth gains a +2 to the check if it has 5 or more points in said Knowledge skill.

Ability Increases: At 2nd, 4th and 6th level, the Aboleth gains +1 Cha and +1 Int, and at 3rd and 5th level the Aboleth gains +1 Con, to make a total of +3 Cha, +2 Con and +3 Int at 6th level, with no increase at 1st or 7th level.
Total Ability Increases;
{table=head]Level|Increases
1st|No Increases
2nd|+1 Cha, +1 Int
3rd|+1 Cha, +1 Con, +1 Int
4th|+2 Cha, +1 Con, +2 Int
5th|+2 Cha, +2 Con, +2 Int
6th|+3 Cha, +2 Con, +3 Int
7th|+3 Cha, +2 Con, +3 Int (No Change from 6th)[/table]

Forbidden Dreaming(Ex): At 3rd level, the Aboleth has control over it's form so much it can, as a last resort, force itself into a limited form of the dreaded Long Dreaming. As a full-round action, the Aboleth can cocoon itself in quick-drying ooze, entrapping it (Treat the Aboleth as only able to make purely mental actions). However, while cocooned the Aboleth gains Fast Healing equal to it's HD/2, Hardness 10 (Treat it as an object in this case), and and temporary HP equal to half of the Aboleth's max HP. This condition can last for as many rounds as the Aboleth likes, up to the Aboleth's Con Mod. After the Aboleth stays in condition for more than their Con Mod worth of rounds, they must make a Reflex Save (DC 15) to make it out of their cocoon. Failing a save increases the next save's DC by 1, and so potentially the Aboleth could stay in it's cocoon for a very long time.

Drowning Ooze (Ex): At 4th level, the slime covering the Aboleth's body grows so thick it taints and corrupts those around the Aboleth. An Aboleth of 4th level and higher is constantly surrounded with a viscous cloud of mucus roughly 5ft thick, which grows to 15ft in any large body of water. Any creature coming into contact with and inhaling this substance must succeed on a Fortitude Save, with a DC equal to 10 + Cha Mod + HD/2, or for one minute (10 rounds) suffers the effects of a forced adaptation to water. An affected creature out of water, while under this effect, takes 1d6 points of damage per round as their body slowly dries out and shrivels up. Renewed contact with the mucus cloud and failing that Fortitude save continues the effect for another 2 minutes.

Endless Growth: At 4th level, the Aboleth grows to Large size. Also, every 5HD past 4th level, the Aboleth grows one size category larger, to a maximum of Colossal at 21HD.

Convert the Flesh (Ex): At 5th level and higher, a blow from an Aboleth’s tentacle can cause a terrible affliction. A creature hit by any of the Aboleth's tentacles must succeed on a Fortitude Save with a DC of 10 + Con Mod + HD/2 or begin to transform over the next two rounds, the skin around the affected area gradually becoming a clear, slimy membrane.
When the Aboleth uses this ability they may choose which part of the body they target they hit, and thus choose one effect from the list in the spoiler.
For more exotic creatures, the Aboleth simply strikes the creature's equivalent with the same effect. Note that the effect that is active over the two rounds is then replaced with a secondary effect that occurs if they are not healed within two rounds, unless it would do something like deal Con Damage which stays anyway. If an effect would do ability damage to the victim however, that damage is also healed when the condition is removed. A creature can only be affected by two of these conditions at one time. They can be affected by an extra condition for every 5HD the Aboleth has past 5HD (3 at 10HD, 4 at 15HD, and all 5 at 20HD).



Face - The victims face slowly turns clear and distorts as it's structure collapses apon itself. Over the next two rounds, the victim takes a penalty to spot checks equal to the Aboleth's HD, and when rolling for anything that needs a verbal component (Like the verbal component of a spell), they must roll twice and take the worse result. After the two rounds, their face collapses in on itself, scarring and distorting. The victim immediately takes 2 points of Cha damage, is Blinded, and has a 20% chance of outright failing any task that requires speech (treat as rolling a natural 1).


Chest - The victim finds it hard to breath as their ribcage slowly softens and distorts from the weight on the victim's shoulders. Over the two rounds, the victim takes one point of Con Damage each round as their body slowly chokes to death. After the two rounds, the victim's body cannot take the strain of their non-mutated parts, and starts to collapse. Each round, the victim must make a Fortitude Save, with a DC equal to 10 + Aboleth's Cha Mod + Aboleth's HD/2, or take a further 2 points of Con damage.


Arms - The victims arm slowly grows less flexible, and loses all strength in it and cannot do simple tasks requiring manipulation. Over the two rounds, any attack made with the one limb (Or a weapon held by that limb) has a 10% chance of missing outright (treat as rolling a Nat 1). After the two rounds, the poor victim's limbs are too distorted for use. They lose all natural attacks that can be made with the limb, and any task they do that requires fine manipulation has a 50% chance of failing outright.


Legs - The victims leg buckles under their weight as it slowly turns into something close to a tentacle. Over the two rounds, the victims movement speeds are all halved. After the two rounds, the victims movement speed is reduced to 10ft, and the victim takes 2 points of Dex damage.


Soul - The most blasphemous of mutations, if the Aboleth strikes its victim with special accuracy they may taint and distort the victims very soul. Over the two rounds, the victim is sent insane as its body simply doesn't recognize its soul, with the soul desperate to regain control.
The victim is treated as being under the effects of a Confusion spell, with a Caster level equal to the Aboleth's HD. After the two rounds, unlike other mutations, the victim of the Aboleth victim gets one last chance to regain control. At the end of the 2nd round, they must make a Will Save that has a DC of 10 + The Aboleth's Cha Mod + 1/2 of the Aboleth's HD, or loose a chunk of their sanity. Until they are healed with the appropriate spell, the victim is permanently Sickened. At 13HD the slime outright ruins the soul, sending them insane, as per Insanity (With a caster level equal to the Aboleth's HD) if they fail the second Will Save. Another more horrific penalty is that if the victim dies with this condition, their soul does not leave the body, but is instead trapped within a corrupted prison. This makes their body immune to being converted into undeath (Animate Dead, Create Undead, etc.), but it also means when they are raised they immediately take 2 points of Wis Drain because of the damning experience.



This effect can be cured by a Remove Disease spell as the mutation progresses over the two rounds, but only Cure Serious Wounds can cure it after it mutates the victim completely. At 11HD, this effect requires a Heal/Mass Heal to remove. At 13HD, it takes a Regeneration spell to cure instead.

Enslave the Mortals (Su): At 6th level, the Aboleth learns a classic Aboleth ability, namely enslaving weaker minded creatures. Once per day per 6HD, an Aboleth can attempt to enslave any one living creature within 30 feet. The target must succeed on a Will Save with a DC of 10 + Int Mod + HD/2 or be affected as though by a Dominate Person spell (caster level equal to the Aboleth's HD).
However, an Aboleth can only do so much at one time, and mental slaves are only allowed to think so far, thus the Aboleth must spend its move action to direct its mental slaves to do anything other than basic tasks (Follow Me, Stay Still and Hide).
An enslaved creature obeys the Aboleth’s telepathic commands until freed by a Remove Curse spell with a Caster Level higher than the Aboleth's HD, but the control is also broken if the Aboleth dies or travels more than 1 mile from its slave.
The total HD of the Aboleth's mental slaves cannot exceed twice its own HD, and each mental slave cannot have more HD than the Aboleth. If this would happen, the last creature to be enslaved by the Aboleth is freed from the domination as if a successful Remove Curse had been cast on it.

Drowned in Nostalgia (Su): At 7th level, the Aboleth can share it's endless knowledge with other beings, although this is not recommended if the Aboleth has any liking for the target, as insanity will follow, with a good chance of making it permanent. As a standard action once per day per 5HD, the Aboleth can make one creature within it's line of sight make a Will save, with a DC of 10 + Aboleth's Cha Mod + its HD/2, or be affected by a Feeblemind spell, with a Caster Level equal to the Aboleth's HD. All Aboleths are immune to this effect.

Special: Please read this if you own Lords of Madness!
http://i636.photobucket.com/albums/uu89/Gecko-King/LakeOfBlackBloodAboleth.jpg
A high level Aboleth dealing with some silly mortals

In the Lords of Madness book, there are certain options that improve a normal Aboleth's special abilities. However, if you were to take these options, they would be incompatable with this Aboleth's abilities. Thus, if you are using this class then you must use the following conversions to the Aboleth racial feats, as below.
When a character option would refer to any of the following abilities for prerequisites, you may substitute the prerequisite for the noted replacement. Likewise, apply the benefits of the feat to the substituted ability.

Original Ability - New Ability
Mucus Cloud - Drowing Ooze
Slime - Convert the Flesh
Enslave - Enslave the Mortals

Specific:

The Quickslime feat does not change the Convert the Flesh's time to take effect in any way.
When a feat would refer to a mucus puddle, ignore it - The Aboleth's Drowning Ooze ability is always a cloud, inside of water or not.
The Thicken Mucus feat inhibits the Land Speed AND Swim Speed of anyone in the cloud's range, not just their Swim Speed.
The Aboleth does not have a bite attack until they take the Powerful Bite feat or take the Stygian Path - The Ability Focus (Bite) feat can be taken by a non-Stygian Aboleth however, it just doesn't do anything until the Aboleth takes the Powerful Bite feat.
The Enlarge Mucus Cloud feat increases the size of the Aboleth's Drowning Ooze, but the Drowning Ooze ability always has a minimum size of 5ft on land, or 15ft in water.


Comments:

Right then, the Aboleth is a nasty horror from beneath the depths, that has four main pathways - Amphibious Illusionist, Waterborne Sneak, Stygian Horror, and Uobilyth Flyer. On top of that it has a crunchy way of using it's vast knowledge, just like a proper Chessmaster should be able to, the ability to know anything with enough skill pumping, the classic Aboleth abilities (Slime with a new twist and Dominate), and a Save or Suck that can make your opponents life very hard indeed.


Changelog:
13/02/11 - Edited the wording of some stuff, explained why it needed more skill points, gave the Aquatic Aboleth a free Freedom of Movement instead of a rubbish skill check boost, Reworded Uobilyth IIII's fluff, upped Forbidden Dreaming's fast healing, removed the fullattack snippet on Convert the Flesh, made Enslave the Mortals so you don't get a will save every day but have a cap on the HD, and just gave IWOCM a duration rather than concentrate, and a small boon to Int.
14/02/11 - Edited more wording, and changes IWOCM so it's a bit less pointless (I.E a more tame boni that can be repeated), and added a more aberration-y picture on the front (Original pic at the bottom of class features).
18/02/11 - More skill points, grammarand wording fixed, scaling DR, Just Has Planned has been reworded, Convert the Flesh happens way quicker, Enslave the Mortals needs the Aboleth to direct the mind slaves, and IWOCM has been sightly changed (Wording and uses per day).
20/02/11 - Renamed IWOCM to Drowned in Nostalgia, made Aboleth levels stack with Archivist levels for Dark Knowledge, and changed the Aquatic Path and Amphibious Path granted abilities slightly.
24/02/10 - Fixed lots of typos, sorted out some scaling, and added the AWOL ability on the Aquatic Path. Also swapped Just as Planned and Memory of the Eons about so you don't feel useless at 1st level. Drowned in Nostalga has been simplified, and Enslave the Mortals nerfed for balance. Also allowed the Aboleth to add an illusion spell of it's choice to it's list with the Amphibious path.
1/03/11 - Amphibious Path has been knocked up so it feels more Illusionist-y, the Flying Aboleth path (I can't keep typing out Uobilyth) gets to huff and puff and blow you down, and the Aquatic Path sucks a little bit less (It's still Aquatic Campaign only, but still).
5/03/11 - Convert the Flesh has gotten a major re-haul, and thus was switched with Drowning Ooze in regards to acquiring it because I feel it's a bit too powerful for 4th level. Also, I tried my best at adding fluff for the four paths. Note that i'm not finished with changes, so watch this space!
10/03/11 - Made Convert The Flesh more scale-y, and reworded a few abilities so they made more sense. Still need to think what i'm going to do with Drowning Ooze though.
11/03/11 - Drowned in Nostalgia has been simplified, and saves for abilities that went AWOL have been re-added. Drowning Ooze seems like it should be OK now.
16/03/11 - Clarified Drowning Ooze so it makes sense.
25/03/11 - More typos, mis-spellings and odd wordings have been hit with the Grammah Hammah.

Hyudra
2011-02-13, 03:33 PM
Please spellcheck and look over your work for major errors. Some blatant table formats and there are spelling errors that stand out with a 3 second glance.

TheGeckoKing
2011-02-13, 03:34 PM
Edited up, grammar/spelling has been fixed and the table is now working.
Aaaaaand MORE editing done. Stupid spell checker drowning my eyes in red.

Frog Dragon
2011-02-13, 03:59 PM
"*The target must make a secondary Fortitude save (Same DC as the first save) or die on the spot via the Aboleth's mechanizations."

I think the word you're looking for here is "machinations".

TheGeckoKing
2011-02-13, 04:46 PM
Thanks for that catch. Microsoft Word has a habit of messing up anything I type.

Saidoro
2011-02-13, 04:51 PM
Aboleth


Hit Dice: d8

{table=head]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Class Features

1st|
+0|
+2|
+0|
+2|Aboleth Body, Memory of the Eons, Primordial Path I

2nd|
+1|
+3|
+0|
+3|Aboleth Magic, Just As Planned, +1 Int, +1 Con

3rd|
+2|
+3|
+1|
+3|Forbidden Dreaming, Primordial Path II, +1 Con

4th|
+3|
+4|
+1|
+4|Convert the Flesh, Endless Growth, +1 Cha, +1 Int

5th|
+3|
+4|
+1|
+4|Drowning Ooze, Primordial Path III, +1 Con

6th|
+4|
+5|
+2|
+5|Enslave the Mortals, +1 Cha, +1 Int

7th|
+5|
+5|
+2|
+5|Infinite Waterfall Of Crushing Memories, Primordial Path IV[/table]

Skills Points at 1st Level: (2+Intelligence Modifier) x 4
Skills Points at Each Level: (2+Intelligence Modifier)
Class Skills: The Aboleth’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Appraise (Int), Autohypnosis (Wis), Bluff (Cha), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Forgery (Int), Gather Information (Cha), Hide (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (All skills, taken individually) (Int), Listen (Wis), Search (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Speak Language (n/a), Spellcraft (Int), Spot (Wis), Swim (Str), and Use Magic Device (Cha)

Proficiencies : The Aboleth gains proficiency with it's natural attacks.

Class Features: The following are the Class Features of the Aboleth.

Aboleth Body (Ex): At 1st level, the Aboleth loses all other racial bonus and gains Aberration traits (Darkvision 60ft). It's a medium sized creature with a base speed of 20ft and a swim speed of 40ft. It has two natural tentacle attacks dealing 1d4+Str Mod damage each. The Aboleth grows one extra tentacle as a natural attack for each 4 HD it possesses (3 tentacles with 4 HD, 4 tentacles with 8 HD, 5 tentacles with 12 HD, and so on). The Aboleth takes no penalty for attacking with all his tentacles in a full attack. The Aboleth has no limbs capable of fine manipulation, but can use his tentacles for somatic components of spells, and if an Aboleth's tentacles are cut off by any means, the tentacles grow back in 1d4 hours.

Memory of the Eons(Ex): A 1st level and beyond, the Aboleth can access it's ancestors memories for a vast pool of information. An Aboleth can make any Knowledge check using it's skill points in Autohypnosis instead of the relevant Knowledge skill, although you gain a +2 to the check if you have 5 or more points in said Knowledge skill.

Primordial Path (Ex): At 1st level, the Aboleth chooses a path to pick, determining the subspecies of Aboleth it is. At each level indicated above, it gains the boni indicated below. Once it chooses a path, only a Wish may change it, as it is akin to changing your entire race.

Amphibious Path:
I - It gains the Aquatic Subtype, and the Amphibious quality. It also gains 4 bonus skill points at 1st level only. Why the skill points? They feel kind of tacked-on here.

II - In order to hide itself from the land-dwellers, the Aboleth practices it's magic and thus gains a +1 to it's Caster Level when casting Illusion spells.

You're switching back and forth between it and the aboleth, kind of jarring.

III - The Aboleth can connect itself to the illusions it makes to taint it's its opponents. Cha Mod times per day, when a creature would interact with an illusion spell cast by the Aboleth, the Aboleth may end the spell and force the creature interacting to make a Fort save, as if it has been hit by one of the Aboleth's tentacles (As per Convert the Flesh).

IV - The Aboleth finally masters its illusionary abilities. Any illusions cast by the Aboleth lasts twice as long as they normally would.

Aquatic Path:
I - It gains the Aquatic Subtype (But NOT the Amphibious quality), it's Swim Speed increases to 60ft, and it gains a bonus to Swim checks equal to half it's HD (Minimum 1)

II - It's slimy skin and fluid movement lets it function in many ways as if they were one size category smaller. Whenever the Aboleth is subject to a size modifier or special size modifier for an opposed check (such as Hide), the kobold aboleth is treated as one size smaller if doing so is advantageous to the character. The Aboleth is also considered to be one size smaller when "squeezing" through a restrictive space. The Aboleth can use weapons designed for a creature one size smaller without penalty. However, the space and reach of the Aboleth remain those of a creature of their actual size. The benefits of this racial trait stack with the effects of powers, abilities, and spells that change the subject's size category.

III - The Aboleth's Swim Speed increases to 80ft, and it can treat itself as up two sizes smaller, as per the III path ability.

IV - The Aboleth's swimming skills become unparalleled, and it can avoid most hazards effortlessly. The Aboleth automatically succeeds on any Swim check with a DC equal to twice it's HD or lower. This isn't very good, the highest listed swim check is 20 and many DMs won't implement any harder than that (and really, you don't even need to make the listed ones, those are just for moving), besides you're already getting a half-hd bonus and +8 for having a swim speed.

Stygian Path
I - The Aboleth gains the Amphibious quality, and the Extraplanar subtype, native to a layer of Hell known as Stygia. The Aboleth may also treat itself as an Outsider if it would be beneficial. It also gain a bite attack dealing 1d4 + Str Mod damage, which can be treated as a tentacle attack if that would be beneficial (namely, making a full attack and the Convert the Flesh ability).

II - The Aboleth grows more and more, beyond other subspecies, and so may treat it's HD as 4 higher to determine how may tentacles it has.

III - The Aboleth gains a bonus to Intimidate equal to 1/4 it's HD because of it's imposing form, and gains DR 5/Magic.

IV - The Aboleth is so imposing they can easily put the fear of death into the mortal creatures. When the Aboleth makes a full-attack, it may make an Intimidate check as an Immediate action at no penalty.

Uobilyth Path
I - The Aboleth gains the Air subtype, lose their Swim Speed, and gain a permanent Feather Fall effect on their person as a Mundane effect.

II - The Aboleth's flight-fins grow strong enough for limited flight, and so gains the ability to fly with a speed of 20ft (Poor) up to Com Mod hours per day. The Aboleth must start and end any flights on land/water. At 4th level, that Aboleth can fly indefinitely at a speed of 40ft (Average).

III - The Aboleth learns how to Slime Bomb it's opponents in glorious warfare, It can, for Cha Mod rounds per day, can make any creature if flies over make a Fort Save or be affected as if it were hit by one of your tentacle attacks (See Convert the Flesh).

IV - Its Flight Speed doubles, and twice per day per 7 HD it can break the sound barrier and travel at supersonic speed. As a move action, it can move triple it's flight speed while flying, and any creature beneath the Aboleth at the beginning or end of the move action takes 1d12 points of Sonic Damage (Reflex Save to halve) Bit nitpicky, but 120 ft/round is only 6 m/s. The speed of sound is 340 m/s.

Aboleth Magic(Su): Beginning at 2nd level the Aboleth can use the following spells at the following levels a total number of times per day (Total, Not per for each spell!) equal to it's HD/2;

2nd - Hypnotic Pattern
7th - Illusionary Wall
9HD - Mirage Arcana, Persistent Image
11HD - Programmed Image, Veil
13HD - Project Image

Just as Planned (Ex): At 2nd level, the Aboleth can do a seemingly random set of actions and use the results of said actions to compromise and befuddle their opponents like a true chessmaster of war. Once per day, plus an extra use per 3HD, as a move action you may use this effect on any enemy within 60ft. They must make a Reflex Save (DC=10+Int Mod+HD/2) or be affected by the following conditions, which depend on the Aboleth's HD (These effects are cumulative)

{table=head]Aboleth's HD|Effect
1-3|Dazzled
4-6|Entangled
7-9|Sickened
10-12|Fatigued
13-15|Prone
16-19|Panicked
20+|Death*[/table]
*The target must make a secondary Fortitude save (Same DC as the first save) or die on the spot via the Aboleth's mechanizations.
In order to be able to use this ability, every 4 hours the Aboleth must make either a Spot, Listen, Gather Information, Concentration or Memory (See Memory of the Eons) check, with a DC of 10, to further progress it's plans. For every hour the Aboleth misses or fails a check, their HD is treated as 3 lower for what conditions this ability inflicts on the target as the plans and contingencies it has slowly fall apart.

Ability Increases: At 2nd, 4th and 6th level, the Aboleth gains +1 Cha and +1 Int, and at 2nd and 4th level the Aboleth gains +1 Con.

Forbidden Dreaming(Ex): At 3rd level, the Aboleth has control over it's form so much it can, as a last resort, force itself into a condition any Aboleth fears to be in - The Long Dreaming. As a full-round action, the Aboleth can cocoon itself in quick-drying ooze, paralyzing it. However, the Aboleth gains Fast Healing equal to it's HD/3, Hardness 10 (Treat it as an object in this case), and a pool of special HP equal to half of the Aboleth's max HP. The only way to end this condition is if the special pool of HP is depleted to 0, at which point the Long Dreaming ends. Thus, an Aboleth must be sure it can be cut out of it's cocoon, lest it dream forever. This seems more like a plot device than an ability that will be used with any frequency. And it really won't save you from dying if your teammates are already incapacitated. Up the fast-healing.

Convert the Flesh (Ex): At 4th level and higher, a blow from an Aboleth’s tentacle can cause a terrible affliction. A creature hit by any of your tentacles during a full-attack Why only a full-attack? must succeed on a DC (10+Cha Mod+HD/2) Fortitude save or begin to transform over the next 1d4+1 minutes, the skin gradually becoming a clear, slimy membrane. An afflicted creature must remain moistened with cool, fresh water or take 1d12 points of damage every 10 minutes. The slime reduces the creature’s natural armor bonus by 1 (but never to less than 0). This can be cured by a Remove Disease spell before the transformation occurs, but only a Heal/Mass Heal spell can cure it after it mutates the victim.

Endless Growth: At 4th level, the Aboleth grows to Large size. Also, every 5HD past 4th level, the Aboleth grows one size category bigger.

Drowning Ooze (Ex): At 5th level, the slime covering your body grows so thick it taints and corrupts those around you. An Aboleth is constantly surrounded with a viscous cloud of mucus roughly 1 foot thick. Any creature coming into contact with and inhaling this substance must succeed on a DC (10+Cha Mod+HD/2) Fortitude save or lose the ability to breathe air for the next hour. An affected creature suffocates in 2d6 minutes if removed from the water. Renewed contact with the mucus cloud and failing that Fortitude save continues the effect for another 2 hours.

Enslave the Mortals (Su): At 6th level, the Aboleth learns a classic Aboleth ability, namely enslaving weaker minded creatures. HD/6 times per day, an aboleth can attempt to enslave any one living creature within 30 feet. The target must succeed on a DC (10+Int Mod+HD/2) Will save or be affected as though by a Dominate Person spell (caster level equal to te Aboleth's HD). An enslaved creature obeys the Aboleth’s telepathic commands until freed by Remove Curse, and can attempt a new Will save every 24 hours to break free. The control is also broken if the Aboleth dies or travels more than 1 mile from its slave. It might be better to remove the new save every 24 hours thing and just but a cap on how many HD of creatures it can control. Or I could be wrong.

Infinite Waterfall of Crushing Memories (Su): At 7th level, the Aboleth can share it's endless knowledge with other beings, although this is normally a bad thing as the sheer knowledge crushes the minds of the recipient. As a full-round action, the Aboleth can make any creature within it's line of sight make a Will Save (DC 10+Int Mod+HD/2) or have it's mind squashed by the overload. The victim is treated as having 0 WIS, and this persists for as long as you can concentrate on the victim. Each round, the afflicted victim can make another Will Save, using its old Wis score instead of the current Wis score. After the victim breaks free, the former victim can make Bardic Knowledge checks, using it's own HD as it's Bard levels, but only for a number of rounds equal to the number of rounds it had 0 WIS under this ability's effect. This would be useful if the Aboleth wasn't already passing all its knowledge checks with one skill.Removing a single creature from combat by using all of your own actions doesn't seem like a good capstone.

Comments in blue.

TheGeckoKing
2011-02-13, 04:53 PM
Right, one lot of edits before I log off :smallsigh:

Zemro
2011-02-13, 07:31 PM
Just finished another round of changes to the Marrash, this time after having taken account a likely constitution score progression. The new limitations are done with a maximum score of 36 Constitution at 20 HD, and I based the limitation on a likely progression.

I also made a small chart listing the SRD diseases and how their damage would be increased by the Outbreak ability. This was mostly for my own benefit so I could keep things in mind, but I figured I might as well leave it in.

Fourth level still seems bear to me, however, so I've considered either creating or moving an ability to fill in the gap.

Saidoro
2011-02-13, 09:00 PM
Changes to cloaker.

February 12
Reworded Engulf
Added line to cloak and removed all "wearing cloaker through cloak silliness"
Made engulfing leap work in a straight line
Cloak's flight no longer works regardless of weight
Cloak can now be used on creatures a single size category larger
February 13
Made Moans Scaly.
Changed Improved Engulf bity-thingy

On an unrelated note the Lemure should probably be changed to start with a single dark ascendancy point, that way when a lemure who started at first level changes form it'll be able to trade in all of its levels instead of all but one.

DiBastet
2011-02-14, 09:31 AM
The Aboleth

I like what you did with the Aboleth. Of course, my whole interpretation of things is to look tham up on the pathfinder bestiary and see if I can understand the abilities as the monster have them, then look for some lore on the creature and see more lore-related abilities.

Now, a big suggestion: Don't-Change-The-Memory-of-Eons.

Why's that? I know you said you made a better draft and all, and this is the simplified version. And what's wrong with it? It's easy, it's elegant, it's simple, and I did show it to two of my players (a more pro-type and a more casual type) and both liked it. Of course, that's because in my games Knowledge skills are very important, always. It's cool, tha mechanic does what the fluff makes us expect, it's simple and a casual player could understand: It's sexy.

Remember, simpler is better.

DiBastet
2011-02-14, 09:38 AM
BTW, editors, I wish to complete the Ragewalker. I contacted the creator, and since I don't know if he'll ever awser, here's the original petition.

"Hello homebrewer.

I'm long time lurker in these forums, and use many of the things here, modified to fit my setting, in my Player's Guide. I kept looking for some monster classes, and found that you had the initiative to begin the ragewalker.

You see, in my campaign now we have a Nymph (GiTP custom monster class, adapted) character, and I developed the fey (gave them four subtypes, Nymphe, the ladies of nature like dryads, Sidhe, the rulers and all, that I razed the eladrin to the ground and to use as fey of the Sidhe, Sprites and more) and one of the most important Sidhe for the courts and for the LeannanSidhe ("Nymph") character in the party is the Ragewalker. Unfortunately you don't seem to have time to finish this one. I'm here to ask if you think I could finish it for you.

I don't know if you have time to even take a look here, but if you don't, in any case, I'm going to send this exact message to the mods to see if I can finish it.

Thanks in advance, more Gnosis less Rage, DiBastet."

I'll begin the working on it.


EDIT: Oh, the kind sir did awser promptly and gave me his blessing, btw. Classy guy.

TheGeckoKing
2011-02-14, 10:54 AM
The Aboleth

I like what you did with the Aboleth. Of course, my whole interpretation of things is to look tham up on the pathfinder bestiary and see if I can understand the abilities as the monster have them, then look for some lore on the creature and see more lore-related abilities.

Now, a big suggestion: Don't-Change-The-Memory-of-Eons.

Why's that? I know you said you made a better draft and all, and this is the simplified version. And what's wrong with it? It's easy, it's elegant, it's simple, and I did show it to two of my players (a more pro-type and a more casual type) and both liked it. Of course, that's because in my games Knowledge skills are very important, always. It's cool, tha mechanic does what the fluff makes us expect, it's simple and a casual player could understand: It's sexy.

Remember, simpler is better.

I'm glad they both liked it, and since the other option was editing Bardic Knowledge and fiddling with it until I liked it, I think I shall agree. Again, glad ya like it :smallsmile:
P.S You'll find the best lore in Lords of Madness, which is where I got the variants (and thus the Primordial Paths) from.

Hyudra
2011-02-14, 11:29 AM
Just asking, why did you ban gaining Dark Ascendancy points if starting beyond 1st level?

Well, it kind of defeats the spirit of the class if a campaign starts at 10th level, you take that level of Lemure, 9 levels of, say, Hexblade, and then with your next level, you become a pit fiend/Hexblade. You weren't really truly affected, and it just becomes an optimization trick rather than a real development point for the character.


How do you pronounce Chthonic, eh? :smalltongue:

THONE-ik.


Might want the class to stack with initiator classes for IL, or at least make it available with a feat.

You lost me. IL?


I know this is gonna sound a bit annoying, but i'm not good with ToB so I can't really comment on the manuvers much, other than ask you - what gave you the idea to give it stances? Just curious.

I touched on that in the comments, but when I was brainstorming ideas for the class, I had a crapton of ideas for movement techniques and stalking abilities, to help sell the notion of Medusae as threats skulking in the ruins or forcing her way up the ranks of the thieves guild to become leader.

Simultaneously finding myself lost for an idea to give some strategic decision making to 1st level, I decided to solve both problems at once with the stances. You're having to decide what stance is most appropriate at low level and you get the character creation edge of figuring out what stances you want or which suit your character best. I think it works out.

Lemure (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10361230&postcount=457) changes, Feb 14, 2011:
The puddle form moved from Pawn of the Nine Hells and into its own ability, named 'Truckle'.
Lemures gain a Dark Ascendancy point for taking a level in the class. This simultaneously fixes an issue with the example given and the ugliness of the 4-9-14-19 progression for abilities (changed to 5-10-15-20).
Thanks to Saidoro & TheGeckoking.
Medusa (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10343087&postcount=418) changes, February 14th, 2010:
I'd forgotten to give the Medusa poison numbers for 1st level. Now deals 1d4 initial and 1d4 secondary.
Seductive Hiss revised. It now gives the enemy penalties to hit (or to DCs) if they would strike the Medusa and there's another target in range. It doesn't require as hefty an action anymore, but it is a standard cha-based DC that allows victims to use their choice of will save or sense motive, so it's less reliable to use.
Thanks to Geckoking and Gorgondantess for the feedback.


BTW, editors, I wish to complete the Ragewalker. I contacted the creator, and since I don't know if he'll ever awser, here's the original petition.

...

I'll begin the working on it.

I have no real issue with you taking on the Ragewalker, aside from the fact that you're a first time poster taking on a fairly extensive class. It's halfway done, though, so go on ahead.

I would love it if you shared your experiences with the monster class(es) here. I think others might enjoy it. We don't tend to hear from people who use or play alongside any of the monster classes.

Also, while looking for inspiration elsewhere is great, recognize that we're predominantly using 3.5, not 3.P.

TheGeckoKing
2011-02-14, 11:44 AM
IL=Initiator Level, and glad you found my nattering useful.

Hyudra
2011-02-14, 11:49 AM
Medusa stances or techniques don't really translate to initiator levels, so I don't see the need.

Edit: I should say, rather, that they don't translate to the kind of training and skill that initiator levels represent.

DiBastet
2011-02-14, 12:08 PM
We don't tend to hear from people who use or play alongside any of the monster classes.

What a sacrilege!

Well, what can I say. First, I should say that we agree with many things Pathfinder, including the ECL = CR thing. They changed for the better many creatures, and many spells aren't so ubber now, and yada yada you all are designers and already know. So I made, basicaly, 3 little alterations on this Nymph (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8167378&postcount=278) here, 1 to make the class give all the attribute bonuses of the PF nymph, since players insist that the monster classes should give the attributes equal to the monters in the book (if the monsters aren't pathfinder we remake using the guides from the Bestiary -the ragewalker lost almost 10 excess CHA!); 2 to give the muse-like ability to inspire bards; and 3 one thing we believe: That if an iconic ability is given too "late" on the monster carreer he sould gain a weaker or very weaker version before. In the end this became that she gained a weaker stunning glance (dazing glance) at lower levels and just gained a weaker blinding beauty (fascinating beauty) at level 4.

She decided to make the nymph very versatile, instead of focusing on thing above the others. So the player decided to spend at maximum two feats on each of her iconic roles (healer, battlefield control, extra force with summons and hot chick). She's been using her druid spellcasting as a battlefield control, draconic aura of healing and the UMD skill + a flower bouqet (wand) of CLW as healing, uses her dazing glance to stop the most troublesome opponent, intends on using the blinding beauty (still working with the other players a signal that she's going to tear away her clothes and they should close their eyes) often, and exactly now is drooling on getting her hands on Stunning Glance (we have a spiked chain rogue and TWF sneak-attack fighter flank buddies). She's counting on her natural abilities only for defense, the bonuses to saves and specially the deflection are being all the difference (we nerf it as PF, limiting to class level, it's more balanced this way).

So, the girl's playing with the nymph since 1st level now. We're on the 14th game session and she just hit level 4. All in all there's a big difference between her and the rest of the party in the feel of her abilties. The glance is cool, the deflection nobody has, but the players don't feel (and are not) overshadowed by her monster abilities. We even had a GiTP dragon for two sessions but the player said he missed the class abilities too much, and coincidently (for real, no joke) the dragon died the same session, wich relieved him.

The player is having fun and she certainly doesn't break the game. She intends to take a level o bard and go Green Whisperer, maybe even Fochlucan Lyrist in the future. Seems bright.

I can say that except for some taste issues, not balance ones (the attributes, the weaker version of abilities and the limiting to HD), the nymph stands pretty much as a good class. A monster, and the player should never forget that, but a good class.

PS: Except by te HORRIBLE HD x CHA thing!
PS2: Would a re-work on the nymph be possible by me (actually, post as a re-work the things I already fixed and am using)?
PS3: Too expensive, I like Xbox360 better...

Hyudra
2011-02-14, 12:23 PM
Well, what can I say. First, I should say that we agree with many things Pathfinder, including the ECL = CR thing. They changed for the better many creatures, and many spells aren't so ubber now, and yada yada you all are designers and already know. So I made, basicaly, 3 little alterations on this Nymph (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8167378&postcount=278) here, 1 to make the class give all the attribute bonuses of the PF nymph, since players insist that the monster classes should give the attributes equal to the monters in the book (if the monsters aren't pathfinder we remake using the guides from the Bestiary -the ragewalker lost almost 10 excess CHA!); 2 to give the muse-like ability to inspire bards; and 3 one thing we believe: That if an iconic ability is given too "late" on the monster carreer he sould gain a weaker or very weaker version before. In the end this became that she gained a weaker stunning glance (dazing glance) at lower levels and just gained a weaker blinding beauty (fascinating beauty) at level 4.

It should be stressed that while whatever a group decides to do to a monster is fine, that one of the big parts of this project is doing away with huge attribute bonuses that many monsters have, as they can lead to problems. Be sure to read through the first few posts of this thread, particularly the Homebrew Guidelines bit.


PS2: Would a re-work on the nymph be possible by me (actually, post as a re-work the things I already fixed and am using)?

I think before we have you commit to any further classes, we should see how you do with the Ragewalker.

Thanks for sharing.

DiBastet
2011-02-14, 12:40 PM
Sure, whatever a party decides should be used. There are some sensibilities here that while I don't agree, should be used since it's the major vote, the pattern, and I simply follow them for the greater good (it does for other nothing if I'm ready and nice with my ragewalker if only I can use, and this is against the purpose of a topic like this). So I'll make the ragewalker taking these sensibilities in regard (a.k.a "for everyone", then expand it to my group's, of course (a.k.a. "for the bros").

BTW, there is one formating question I should ask. I find that odd ability bonuses are... odd. Of course the guidelines say that "Ability Scores typically shouldn’t increase more than +1 for any Given Ability Score per Level". But is this a requirement or taste? We like better to give bonuses less times and givem them 2 at a time instead of 1. If it's a requirement it's only a minor problem for me, just break the +2 into two +1 and there I go.

Second, i just post it here, on this very thread, following the style guides, right?

Hyudra
2011-02-14, 01:11 PM
Sure, whatever a party decides should be used. There are some sensibilities here that while I don't agree, should be used since it's the major vote, the pattern, and I simply follow them for the greater good (it does for other nothing if I'm ready and nice with my ragewalker if only I can use, and this is against the purpose of a topic like this). So I'll make the ragewalker taking these sensibilities in regard (a.k.a "for everyone", then expand it to my group's, of course (a.k.a. "for the bros").

Which don't you agree with and why? I'd rather hammer that out sooner than have it come up later as an issue. Also, if we bring it up, I could try explaining the rationale behind it and hammering out why it is in practice.


BTW, there is one formating question I should ask. I find that odd ability bonuses are... odd. Of course the guidelines say that "Ability Scores typically shouldn’t increase more than +1 for any Given Ability Score per Level". But is this a requirement or taste? We like better to give bonuses less times and givem them 2 at a time instead of 1. If it's a requirement it's only a minor problem for me, just break the +2 into two +1 and there I go.

Odd ability score bonuses are odd because it allows a smoother progression. Someone taking just one level in troll gets a small bonus, rather than having to take two to get that concrete bonus.

You may be used to the ability score adjustments for race, which are even because they make for a concrete +1 or -2, and have no reason to scale because you only ever get one race, which doesn't advance.


Second, i just post it here, on this very thread, following the style guides, right?

Right. If you're modifying an existing class, I might recommend quoting it and then deleting the quote tags, to copy it and the formatting.

TheGeckoKing
2011-02-14, 02:21 PM
Thinking now, i'm not fond of the Aboleth picture. So, to anyone reading, how would any (maybe resized version) of any of the following be? Better? Worse?

http://fc09.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2009/355/1/9/Aboleth_color_by_ProdigyDuck.jpg
or
http://fc03.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2010/188/b/5/Aboleth_by_nanya.jpg
or
http://fc03.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2010/166/6/c/Aboleth___colored_version_by_theEldritchMrShiny.pn g

Hyudra
2011-02-14, 03:03 PM
I kind of like the Aboleth picture you used. The second one in your list is also good. Excellently detailed and sells the aberration nature with that texturing.

One I stumbled upon a few days ago:
http://i54.tinypic.com/2itov9t.png

It's more cute than anything else though.

Kobold-Bard
2011-02-14, 03:14 PM
Is it just me or is the Ghaele Eladrin too powerful? Full BAB, full Casting, SLAs & its other stuff.

It may well be me though.

DiBastet
2011-02-14, 03:27 PM
RAGEWALKER (MMIII p.132)
This is a new take on the original by AustontheGreat1, found here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10021982&postcount=639)

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/mmiii_gallery/83038.jpg

CLASS

Hit Die: d6

RAGEWALKER
{table=head]Level|
BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Special

1st|
+0|
+0|
+2|
+2|Ragewalker Body, Mind of Rage, Ferocity, Grafted Armor, +1 Dex

2nd|
+1|
+0|
+3|
+3|Styptic Armor, Damage Reduction, Animated Weapons, Animated Weapons Mode: Attack, +1 Cha

3rd|
+2|
+1|
+3|
+3|Deflect Missiles, Spell Resistant Armor, +1 Dex

4th|
+3|
+1|
+4|
+4|Animated Weapons Mode: Swarm

5th|
+3|
+1|
+4|
+4|Command Living Spell, Induce Rage, +1 Cha, +1 Dex

6th|
+4|
+2|
+5|
+5|Animated Weapons Mode: Fury

7th|
+5|
+2|
+5|
+5|Repel Missiles, +1 Dex

8th|
+6/+1|
+2|
+6|
+6|Growth, Induce Recklesness, +1 Cha

9th|
+6/+1|
+3|
+6|
+6|Animated Weapons Mode: Line, Create Living Spell, +1 Dex

10th|
+7/+2|
+3|
+7|
+7|Greater Ferocity

11th|
+8/+3|
+3|
+7|
+7|Induce Frenzy, +1 Cha, +1 Dex

12th|
+9/+4|
+4|
+8|
+8|Animated Weapons Mode: Wall

13th|
+9/+4|
+4|
+8|
+8|Shifting Stance, +1 Dex

14th|
+10/+5|
+4|
+9|
+9|Induce Blood Frenzy, Repel Magic, +1 Cha [/table]


Class Skills: ((6 + Int. Mod.) x 4 at first level) The Ragewalker’s class skills, as all fey, are: Balance, Bluff, Climb, Craft, Diplomacy, Disguise, Escape Artist, Hide, Knowledge (geography), Knowledge (local), Knowledge (nature), Listen, Move Silently, Perform, Sense Motive, Sleight of Hand, Spot, Swim, Use Magic Device.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Ragewalkers are proficient with all simple and martial weapons, with all types of armor (heavy, medium, and light), and with shields (except tower shields).

Ragewalker Body: Ragewalkers embody the natural forces of war and combat in the same way that a nymph embodies the beauty of nature or a dryad embodies the heart of its tree. At first level, the Ragewalker loses all racial bonuses, traits, and abilities and gains fey traits (essentially, lowlight vision). Ragewalkers begin as medium fey with a base land speed of 40ft. Ragewalkers speak common and sylvan, and may speak an additional language for every point of their intelligence modifier.

Mind of Rage: Ragewalkers are masters of battle among fey, raging across the battlefield in a deadly swarm of armor and blades, capable of inspiring dread and bloodlust on enemies and allies alike with their combat prowess.
First, Ragewalker levels count as full initiator levels for the purpose of determining the highest level stances and maneuvers the Ragewalker can learn.
Second the Ragewalker may stack any Barbarian levels with Ragewalker levels for advancing his daily uses of Rage.
Third, whenever the Ragewalker needs to make an opposed attack roll (including a grapple check) as a consequence of another creature’s action, or is resisting a Feint attempt, it can use its total HD in place of its BAB. If a maneuver is initiated against the Ragewalker and it is required to make a strength check as a consequence, it may make a dexterity check instead.

Ferocity (Ex): Once per day, the Ragewalker can enter a state of adrenaline-fueled fury, increasing both its physical might and its reaction time. It temporarily gains a +4 bonus to Strength and a +4 bonus to Dexterity, but it takes a -2 penalty on ranged attack rolls beyond 30 ft.

The Ragewalker can enter this state as an immediate action, even when flat-footed at the start of combat, so it may apply the enhanced Dexterity modifier to its initiative check.

While in a state of ferocity, the Ragewalker cannot use any Charisma- or Intelligence-based skills (except for Intimidate), the Concentration skill, or any abilities that require patience or concentration, nor can it cast spells or activate magic items that require a command word, a spell trigger (such as a wand), or spell completion (such as a scroll) to function. it can use any feat it has except item creation feats and metamagic feats. Ferocity lasts for a number of rounds equal to 4 + its Constitution modifier (if positive). The Ragewalker may prematurely end its state of ferocity. At the end of ferocity, it loses the ferocity modifiers and restrictions and become sickened (-2 on all attack rolls, weapon damage rolls, saving throws, skill checks, and ability checks) for the duration of the current encounter (unless it is a 17th HD Ragewalker, at which point this limitation no longer applies). Abilities that normally render him immune to being sickened reduce the penalties to -1, but do not remove them entirely.

The Ragewalker can invoke ferocity only once per encounter. At 1st HD it can use this ability once per day. At 4th level and every four total HD thereafter, it can use it one additional time per day (to a maximum of six times per day at 20th HD).

Grafted Armor: A Ragewalker wears armor it has scavenged from countless battlefields and modified to suit it perfectly. When the Ragewalker gains this ability it receives a suit of armor. The Ragewalker cannot benefit from any other suit of armor while using its Grafted Armor though it may enchant this armor. This armor provides armor bonus equal to 4 + 1/3 the Ragewalker's total HD. It does not reduce movement speed or impose any sort of Armor Check Penalty, Arcane Spell Failure or Maximum Dexterity Bonus. This armor can be enchanted as any other armor and is immune to natural and magical rusting effects. If the armor is damaged, it naturally heals back at a rate of three hit point every day after the Ragewalker has taken at least 8 hours of rest, even if destroyed or torn to pieces, but not if it was disintegrated or otherwise destroyed in a way that leaves no remains. No other creature can benefit from the Ragewalker’s Grafted Armor. If lost, the Ragewalker can graft a new armor with different pieces from many armor (no price) and 24 hours of work. A Ragewalker can only have one Grafted Armor at a time.

Styptic Armor (Ex): Beginning at 2nd level, whenever the Ragewalker is wearing its Grafted Armor, it heals 1 hit point of damage each round at the beginning of its turn. The amount of healing each round increases by 1 for every 3 HD the Ragewalker attains after the second (2 at 5 HD, 3 at 8 HD and so on, to a maximum of 7 at 20 HD). The armor also stops any kind of bleeding attack (like a wounding weapon) and stabilizes the Ragewalker when at –1 or less hit points.

Damage Reduction: The Ragewalker gains DR/cold iron equal to half its total HD, rounded down.

Animated Weapons (Su): Beginning at 2th level, the Ragewalker can surround itself in a swirling cloud of the weapons of fallen enemies. Any creature adjacent to the Ragewalker take 1d4 damage. This damage increases by 1d per three total HD beyond this point, and the damage die increases by one size at 11th level. This damage is slashing, piercing and bludgeoning, and damage reduction applies normally. The Ragewalker can activate or suppress this ability, as return its Animated Weapons to this basic form with a Swift Action. As the Ragewalker increases in power it learns how to use its animated weapons in other ways, but any of the Animated Weapon’s Mode abilities can only be used when this ability is activated and in this basic form. No Animated Weapon’s Mode may be used while the Ragewalker is using Ferocity or similar abilities, except for Attack.

Animated Weapon’s Mode: Attack (Su): Beginning at 2th level, the Ragewalker can use the same energy that make weapons swirl around him to throw parts of its cloud of weapons into enemies far away. The Ragewalker can use its Animated Weapons as a ranged weapon with a range increment of 30ft and threat range of 20. Using this attack removes as many die as the Ragewalker decides (minimum 1 die) from its Animated Weapons ability and causes the same amount of die as damage. This attack counts as a projectile attack. The change to the damage of its Animated Weapons ability remains until the beginning of its next turn. If the Ragewalker expends so many damage die as to bring its Animated Weapons to 0 damage die, the ability dissipates and can’t be activated again until its next turn.

Deflect Missiles (Ex): Beginning at 3rd level, the Ragewalker can deflect incoming missile attacks as per the Deflect Arrows feat. The Ragewalker, however, does not need to have a free hand to use this ability. Starting at 9HD, the Ragewalker may deflect additional missiles. Doing so uses up one of the Ragewalker's attacks of opportunity for the round. If it cannot make an attack of opportunity, the missile passes through uncontested.

Spell Resistant Armor (Ex): Beginning at 3rd level, whenever the Ragewalker is wearing its Grafted Armor, it gains Spell Resistance equal to 10 + its total HD.

Animated Weapon’s Mode: Swarm (Su): Beginning at 4th level, the Ragewalker can focus its Animated Weapons to become a cloud of flying weapons that roam the battlefield. As a standard action, the Ragewalker may command its Animated Weapons to act as a Bat Swarm, except that they aren’t living creatures (treat as a Construct, but don’t recalculate any ability), can only fly within 30ft of the Ragewalker, don’t cause damage to him and cause his normal Weapon Cloud Damage. The Ragewalker may control the movement of the swarm as a move action.

Command Living Spell (Su): Beginning at 5th level, the Ragewalker rebukes and commands living spells in the same way that evil clerics rebuke and control undead. A Ragewalker can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + its Charisma bonus (ten times per day for a typical Ragewalker). A Ragewalker rebukes and commands living spells as a cleric with a level equal to its total HD.

Induce Rage (Ex): Beginning at 5th level, the powerful emotions begin to leak from Ragewalker into the air around it in the form of a powerful gaze attack. Whenever the Ragewalker is under the effect of its Ferocity ability, it gains a gaze attack with 30ft. Creatures affected by its gaze attack must make a will save or become enraged as the Rage spell.

As the Ragewalker becomes more powerful, it unlocks new kinds of gazes, however, the Ragewalker may only project one gaze at a time, but may change the projected gaze once per round as a free action at the start of its turn. The affected creatures remain with the listed effect for a number of rounds equal to 10 minus its Wisdom modifier (minimum 1 round), even if the Ragewalker is dead or no longer present, or until the Ragewalker changes the gaze projected, whichever comes first.

The Will save DC for this affect is 10 + ½ the Ragewalker’s total HD + the Ragewalker’s Cha modifier. Any creature who successfully saves against this ability is immune to its effect for 24 hours. This is a mind-affecting ability.

Animated Weapon’s Mode: Fury (Su): Beginning at 6th level, the Ragewalker can focus its Animated Weapons to become a blanket of swirling weapons across the battlefield. As a standard action, the Ragewalker can use its Animated Weapons as an area attack up to 60ft away. If it chooses to affect a single square, it causes double its normal Animated Weapons damage. If it chooses to affect a 5ft / 4 HD radius it causes its normal Animated Weapons damage. Finally, if it chooses to affect a 10ft / 4 HD radius it causes half its normal Animated Weapons damage. This ability allows a Reflex save for half damage with a DC of 10 + ½ the Ragewalker’s total HD + the Ragewalker’s Dex modifier, and ends its Animated Weapons effect.

Repel Missiles (Su): Beginning at 7th level, whenever the Ragewalker is wearing its Grafted Armor, it can improve its ability to Deflect Missiles. Once per turn, when using its Deflect Missiles ability, the Ragewalker may immediately return the attack upon the attacker with the same original attack roll. Starting at 12HD, the Ragewalker may deflect additional missiles. Doing so uses up one of the Ragewalker's attacks of opportunity for the round. If it cannot make an attack of opportunity, the missile passes through uncontested.

Growth: At 8th level, the Ragewalker permanently increases one size category. In addition to this, the Ragewalker’s base land speed increases by 10ft.

Induce Recklesness (Su): Beginning at 8th level, the Ragewalker’s gaze attack may induce creatures to become too overconfident. Creatures affected by its gaze attack receive –2 to attack rolls, Dexterity, a 50% reduction to their speed (minimum 5ft) and must make a concentration check to cast any spell (DC equal to the gaze DC).

Animated Weapon’s Mode: Line (Su): Beginning at 9th level, the Ragewalker can focus its Animated Weapons to become a line of deadly steel across the battlefield. As a standard action, the Ragewalker can use its Animated Weapons as an area attack in the form of a 60ft line. This ability causes its normal Animated Weapons damage. This ability allows a Reflex save for half damage with a DC of 10 + ½ the Ragewalker’s total HD + the Ragewalker’s Dex modifier, and ends its Animated Weapons effect.

Create Living Spell (Su): Beginning at 9th level, using two daily uses of its Command Living Spell ability, the Ragewalker can create a living spell from the power of one of more spells. The Ragewalker may create a living spell with as many HD as its total HD, but must provide the spell(s) it wants to turn into Living Spells as in the creation of a magic item (another creature may provide the spells, of the Ragewalker may use a spell from an item like a scroll), and must expend 25gp in rare materials per HD of the Living Spell it wants to create, and the living spells doesn’t automatically falls under its control. If the living spell has ½ or less the Ragewalker’s HD, it becomes controlled (as per the Command Living Spell ability) by the Ragewalker, but its HD still count against its limit on controlled living spells.

Greater Ferocity (Ex): At 10th level, the Ragewalker’s bonuses to Strength and Dexterity during ferocity each increase to +6. In addition, the duration of its ferocity increases to 5 + its Constitution modifier (if positive).

Induce Frenzy (Su): Beginning at 11th level, the Ragewalker’s gaze attack may induce creatures to become enraged and unable to attack other targets, and must make a melee attack against the Ragewalker each round (using a full attack, or charging if appropriate). An affected creature is incoherent and cannot talk, cast spells, or otherwise take any action except movement or attacking.

Animated Weapon’s Mode: Slaughter (Su): Beginning at 12th level, the Ragewalker may multiply his Animated Weapons and create a curtain of deadly steel. As a standard action, the Ragewalker can use its Animated Weapons to create a 20ft high and 20ft / HD wide wall. This wall causes double his Animated Weapons damage, and creatures caught in it or crossing it may make a Reflex save for half damage with a DC of 10 + ½ the Ragewalker’s total HD + the Ragewalker’s Dex modifier.

Shifting Stance (Ex): At 13th level, while in a state of ferocity, the Ragewalker gains a +1 bonus to Reflex saves / 4 total HD. In addition, while in a state of ferocity, the Ragewalker can stand from prone as a swift action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity. If a foe that threatens him has a base attack bonus that is 4 points or more higher than his total HD, however, she gains an attack of opportunity as normal.

Induce Blood Frenzy (Su): Beginning at 14th level, the Ragewalker’s gaze attack may induce creatures to see only blood, death and vengeance. This functions as the Induce Frenzy gaze, except that the affected creatures cannot distinguish friend from foe and must make a melee attack against the nearest creature each round.

Repel Magic (Su): As Repel Missiles, except that beginning at 14th level, the Ragewalker can reflect any spell that was negated by its Spell Resistance. This ability is usable once a day, with an additional daily use for every three HD after 14HD.

Comments
Well, did a complete rework on the class. To start with, I asked for help to some fellow players that believed the Ragewalker should be a mix of barbarian with some xohanort-like weapon control (please look at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=35yH1e0YdEc to understand the animated weapons abilities) and some kind of very agile scout-like agile warrior.

So I gave him the Ferocity rage variant, different gazes that only work when raging, and specialy, new uses for his animated weapons, so he can fight different enemies.

The player more or less must decide if he’s going to rage first or if he’s going to turn its weapons into another mode, because he can’t change it while raging. However, when raging he may use his gaze attacks, but they effect both allies and foes.

He’s still got good defenses, and god knows he’ll need it with his fey d6, most of them based in his armor. It may be a good tatic for his enemies to remove his armor, and there are many flavorful campaign situations where this may crop up.

I tried to balance the abilities on existing spells with my golden rule: One HD after the full casters gain them, at the very least.

The whole intention is being a different kind of warrior, what I believe fey would be as barbarians

Changelog
09-03-11: Major revisions, really, a new version.

TheGeckoKing
2011-02-14, 03:28 PM
Ghaele Eladrin is one of the more hideously overpowered monsters that plague the list, yeah. Changing the picture on the Aboleth now for the more aberrant lookin' one.
And done. Original pic is at the bottom to illustate what an Aboleth can become with enough levels. I.E it's beating up a Swordsage and a Druid, complete with crushing the Animal Companion's skull.

radmelon
2011-02-14, 04:52 PM
I like the second aboleth picture myself. Looks all "cosmic horror".

Saidoro
2011-02-14, 07:43 PM
This is a new take on the original by AustontheGreat1, found here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10021982&postcount=639). It's still not finished. Put this line in your comments, when we link to this post we just want people to see the monster.

RAGEWALKER (MMIII p.132)

CLASS

Hit Die: d10

RAGEWALKER
{table=head]Level|
BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Special

1st|
+0|
+0|
+2|
+2|Nature Child, Mind of Rage, Grafted Armor

2nd|
+1|
+0|
+3|
+3|Fey Body, Styptic Armor

3rd|
+1|
+1|
+3|
+3|Deflect Missiles, Lesser, Spell Resistant Armor

4th|
+2|
+1|
+4|
+4|Bull’s Strength

5th|
+2|
+1|
+4|
+4|Command Living Spell, Weapon Cloud: d4

6th|
+3|
+2|
+5|
+5|Repel Missiles, Lesser, Induce Blood Frenzy

7th|
+3|
+2|
+5|
+5|Greater Magic Weapon

8th|
+4|
+2|
+6|
+6|Growth

9th|
+4|
+3|
+6|
+6|Deflect Missiles

10th|
+5|
+3|
+7|
+7|Wall of Fire

11th|
+5|
+3|
+7|
+7|Weapon Cloud: d6

12th|
+6/+1|
+4|
+8|
+8|Repel Missiles

13th|
+6/+1|
+4|
+8|
+8|Blade Barrier

14th|
+7/+2|
+4|
+9|
+9|Repel Magic[/table]

Class Skills: ((6 + Int. Mod.) x 4 at first level) The Ragewalker’s class skills, as all fey, are: Balance, Bluff, Climb, Craft, Diplomacy, Disguise, Escape Artist, Hide, Knowledge (geography), Knowledge (local), Knowledge (nature), Listen, Move Silently, Perform, Sense Motive, Sleight of Hand, Spot, Swim, Use Magic Device.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Ragewalkers are proficient with all simple and martial weapons, with all types of armor (heavy, medium, and light), and with shields (except tower shields).

Nature Child: Ragewalkers embody the natural forces of war and combat in the same way that a nymph embodies the beauty of nature or a dryad embodies the heart of its tree. At first level, the Ragewalker loses all racial bonuses, traits, and abilities and gains fey traits (essentially, lowlight vision). Ragewalkers begin as medium fey with a base land speed of 40ft. Ragewalkers speak common and sylvan, and may speak an additional language for every point of their intelligence modifier.

Mind of Rage: Ragewalker levels count as full initiator levels for the purpose of determining the highest level stances and maneuvers the Ragewalker can learn. Add an alternative here for those of us without ToB.

Grafted Armor: A Ragewalker wears armor it has scavenged from countless battlefields and modified to suit it perfectly. When the Ragewalker gains this ability it receives a suit of armor. The Ragewalker cannot benefit from any other suit of armor while using his Grafted Armor though it may enchant this armor. This armor provides armor bonus equal to 4 + 1/2 the Ragewalker's total HD This is a really big bonus, at 8 HD it already provides as much as full plate, can be enchanted normally, and has none of full plate's problems. And it only gets better from there.. It does not reduce movement speed or impose any sort of Armor Check Penalty or Maximum Dexterity Bonus What about arcane spell failure?. This armor is immune to natural and magical rusting effects. If the armor is damaged, it naturally heals back at a rate of three hit point every day after the Ragewalker has taken at least 8 hours of rest, even if destroyed or torn to pieces, but not if it was Desintegrated disintegrated or otherwise destroyed in a way that leaves no remains. No other creature can benefit from the Ragewalker’s Grafted Armor. If lost, the Ragewalker can graft a new armor with different pieces from many armor (no price) and 24 hours of work. A Ragewalker can only have one Grafted Armor at a time. You should probably attach a small price to rebuilding the armor. It'll be negligible by the time disintegrate comes into play, but it isn't impossible for them to lose their armor early on.

Fey Body: Beginning at 2nd level, the Ragewalker gains DR/cold iron equal to half its total HD.

Styptic Armor (Ex): Beginning at 2nd level, whenever the Ragewalker is wearing his Grafted Armor When will he not be?, it heals 1 hit point of damage each round at the beginning of its turn. The amount of healing each round increases by 1 for every 3 HD the Ragewalker attains after the second (2 at 5 HD, 3 at 8 HD and so on, to a maximum of 7 at 20 HD).

Deflect Missiles, Lesser (Ex): Beginning at 3rd level, the Ragewalker can deflect incoming missile attacks as per the Deflect Arrows feat. The Ragewalker, however, does not need to have a free hand to use this ability.

Spell Resistant Armor (Ex): Beginning at 3rd level, whenever the Ragewalker is wearing his Grafted Armor, it gains Spell Resistance equal to 10 + its total HD. Pretty much everything so far has been passive. Consider some ToB-esque stances/manuevers

Spell-Like Abilities: Beginning at 4th level, the Ragewalker can cast Bull’s Strength. It can also cast Greater Magic Weapon at 7th level, Wall of Fire at 10th and Blade Barrier at 13th. All these spell-like abilities are usable each one time per day per 4 total HD the Ragewalker attains. Caster Level equals its total HD. Based on Cha. Explicitly state saving throws, they should probably be set to 10+.5HD+Cha in order to remain relevant. Also it should have each level it gains spell-like abilities listed separately.

Command Living Spell (Su): Beginning at 5th level, the Ragewalker rebukes and commands living spells in the same way that evil clerics rebuke and control undead. A Ragewalker can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + its Charisma bonus (ten times per day for a typical Ragewalker). A Ragewalker rebukes and commands living spells as a cleric with a level equal to its total HD. What on earth does a primal aspect of war have to do with living spells?

Weapon Cloud (Su): Beginning at 5th level, the Ragewalker can surround itself in a swirling cloud of the weapons of fallen enemies. Any creature adjacent to the Ragewalker take 1d4 1d6? damage. This damage increases by 1d6 per three total HD beyond this point, and the damage die increases by one size at 11th level. This damage is slashing, piercing and bludgeoning, and damage reduction applies normally. By spending a use of its Greater Magic Weapon spell-like ability it may make the damage dealt by this ability magic for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction and gain +1 enhancement bonus to the damage rolls of the weapon cloud for every 4 HD the Ragewalker possesses (to a maximum of 5) for the duration of the spell-like ability. The Ragewalker can activate or suppress this ability with a Swift Action.

Induce Blood Frenzy (Ex): Beginning at 6th level, the powerful emotions begin to leak from Ragewalker into the air around it in the form of a powerful gaze attack. Creatures effected by this gaze attack must make a will save or become enraged and unable to distinguish friend from foe and must make a melee attack against the nearest creature each round (using a full attack if possible, or charging if appropriate). An affected creature is incoherent and cannot talk, cast spells, or otherwise take any action except movement or attacking. It remains in a frenzy for a number of rounds equal to 10 minus its Wisdom modifier (minimum 1 round), even if the Ragewalker is dead or no longer present. The save DC for this affect is 10 + ½ the Ragewalker’s total HD + the Ragewalker’s Cha modifier. Any creature who successfully saves against this ability is immune to its effect for 24 hours. This is a mind-affecting ability.

Repel Missiles, Lesser (Su): Beginning at 6th level, whenever the Ragewalker is wearing his Grafted Armor, it can improve its ability to Deflect Missiles. When using his Deflect Missiles, Lesser ability, the Ragewalker may immediately return the attack upon the attacker with the same original attack roll.

Greater Magic weapon on its own doesn't really carry seventh level, you probably had magic weapons anyway.

Growth: At 8th level, the Ragewalker permanently increases one size category. In addition to this, the Ragewalker’s base land speed increases by 10ft.

Deflect Missiles (Ex): As Deflect Missiles, except that beginning at 9th level, the Ragewalker can deflect any number of attacks. The Ragewalker still can use Repel Missiles, Lesser only once per turn. This ability improves and substitutes Deflect Missiles, Lesser.

11th level is horrible...increasing a single d4 damage die to a d6 is not a class feature, at least it shouldn't be.

Repel Missiles (Su): As Repel Missiles, except that beginning at 12th level, the Ragewalker can reflect any number of attacks. This ability improves and substitutes Repel Missiles.

Repel Magic (Su): As Repel Missiles, except that beginning at 14th level, the Ragewalker can, once reflect any spell that was negated by its Spell Resistance. This ability is usable once per day plus one more time per three HD attained beyond this point.


COMMENTS
It’s hard being a good warrior being fey, specially with the characteristics of the racial die. You do not need to keep the racial hit-die characteristics. I like, however, to keep the type Stats and work around it with abilities, to have some “unity” or something a little more “universal” if you will. It’s pure taste, something I find a little more elegant. That’s why I didn’t give the Ragewalker a medium or good BAB progression. As it stands, the Ragewalker has no good reason to stand and full attack, and should instead use hit and run tactics, as described on MM3. If it doesn't have good BaB you need to at least give it boni to it's combat stats... or give it boni to charisma and let it use that in the place of strength if you'd find that more flavorful.

There’s the need to understand that my idea of abilities is: The simpler, the better. I tried to stay far from fancy ideas and abilities, instead trying the simplest way to give the warrior fey its abilities. Keep this in mind.

As for the abilities, I decided to tie his SR and Fast Healing to his armor. Thought it was very flavorful and gave a reason for them not to wear other, maybe better, armor. Past 8th level there ISN'T better armor. The formula of the fast healing give it as much as the monster has by 14th level, too.

The command living spells I gave at level 5 because that’s the exact level where you can learn Initiate of Nature to rebuke animals and plants, and it sounded a good balance point.

The Repel Missiles is just too cool to give at a higher level. If I’m a Ragewalker I want to have a cloud of weapons and to deflect things right now, so I decided to make some lesser versions. At first is a mere armed Deflect Arrows, that can reflect the arrows, as a magic item can. Of course, it improves to unlimited times per day and then to reflect at will. I kinda gave the reflect ability after spellcasters learn wind wall and the others, so it’s more or less okay. Good job on these ones, but I almost feel like it should become unlimited base on HD after the first ability, you can use the empty levels later to add special effects on deflection or something like that... don't be afraid to deviate from the monster.

The weapon cloud came as soon as a cleric can cast Ring of Blades. The damage is lesser than the spell until 14th level, when it becomes equal. Of course, it’s at will, but that’s the point of being a monster, to be a little different. The damage, of course, is really minimum, but it’s free.

Nothing fancy on the spell like abilities too, I tried to give them more or less after a full caster can use it. The number of uses per day give as much as the original monsters can use by 14th level.

The capstone ability… Well, it needed one, and I certainly wouldn’t create something new or different, instead I could work on something that it already had. By 20th level he’s got three uses of a pseudo spell-turning that needs the spell to be negated by his spell resistance.

Oh, you should notice no attribute adjustments, and that’s intentional: I decided to balance the levels that he would gain the abilities first, THEN choose some levels to gain adjustments (mainly Dex, with a little Con and Cha). I also will need some filler abilities here and there, like the very cool Mind of Rage of the original creator of this, probably something about maneuvers and stances or something like that.

I’ll create some fillers and wait for constructive feedback, hopefully less about how I should have spelled correctly in the first draft and more about ideas.




And done. Original pic is at the bottom to illustate what an Aboleth can become with enough levels. I.E it's beating up a Swordsage and a Druid, complete with crushing the Animal Companion's skull.
Actually, that's a monk (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/monk). And it was a big enough threat to cut off one of its tentacles... Awkward...
In all seriousness though, the new pic is much better. The old one was really a picture of a couple adventures fighting a creature that just happened to be an Aboleth. The new one is actually about the Aboleth.

Frog Dragon
2011-02-15, 12:32 AM
Actually, that's a monk (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/monk).
But it appears to be competent in that picture. I cannot be a monk.

FishAreWet
2011-02-15, 09:38 AM
BRIARVEX IS BACK.



Briarvex (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10000991&postcount=583)
"Full strength is added to these strikes" reads a little weird.
Leathal should be spelled lethal.
Spellcheck! Oppurtunity
I'd remove 'per thorn point' at the end of Briar Burrow, as it reads awkwardly and is really unneeded.
I think what bugs me about Thorn Burrow is that it's basically sneak attack damage, without restrictions on how the damage can be applied (must be flanking, etc.), with a dex penalty until it is triggered (lowering AC, among other things). Opponents aren't really going to get a chance to remove the thorns in your usual combat, by virtue of either not having the heal skill or not being willing to take the actions to remove the thorns.
I don't like entangle as anything less than a move action.
I'd replace HD/4 times a day with something easier to read. I swear I complained about this earlier. It's confusing, and can be interpreted as 4x per HD.


Check
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It's less damage than Sneak Attack and requires an additional action. There is also great incentive to not deal the damage as the AC penalty might lead to higher damage when you factor in Power Attack and allies. If you still think it should be lowered, by how much?
Why not? I was hesitant on the Free Action but a first level spell as a Swift action at level 11 hardly seems unfair. I removed the Free Action but increased the duration starting at Move Action.
Check

You didn't list this but many others did, I vastly increased the action it takes to create permanent vegetation. It now requires a full minute and cannot be done until level 11.