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DiBastet
2011-02-26, 06:28 AM
I'm not entirely sure what you're saying here. can you try explaining a bit better?

Sure dark lord. Or lady. Or whatever.

Better, sure Sith Master. You see, you could say tha it has a natural armor bonus equal to Con or something like this, or it could gain inertial armor. Inertial armor, as a psi-like ability, advances with level. It's just like casting a mage armor tha advances with level (and mage armor is very mage-like, huh?), but that you an only cast on yourself. It's the very same as giving a scaling ammount of armor bonus or natural armor bonus, except that you see, can be dispeled.

It could very well read that it haves an inertial armor effect always active. At least for me it seems much more flavorful to give an inertial armor always on than the old Natural Armor = Con score... Helps with the "soft fragile worm with mental powers" thing.

dsmiles
2011-02-26, 07:35 AM
Wow. That's a lot of critique. Thanks, guys (and/or gals). :smallwink:

Spoilered for Wall'o'Text-iness. Responses are in bold.

That seems a little excessive. Maybe give it the bonus power points you normally get from leveling in psionic classes? Bonus PP may work, but PLAs are already augmented to a max of their ML's worth of PP.

Psi-like abilities augment automatically. (SRD: "When a creature uses a psi-like ability, the power is manifested as if the creature had spent a number of power points equal to its manifester level, which may augment the power to improve its damage or save DC.")See? I told you so.:smalltongue:

As far as I know, the warlock require that you take most of the levels in their class to qualify for the 9d6. Assuming the monster doesn't qualify as a manifesting class and took the rest of its levels in a manifesting class, it matches the warlock's damage output.
It still shouldn't be an at will ability unless it needs to be for the class to be functional. The only class I know of that has an at will ability is the lantern archon, and that class does need the ability to function, since there aren't many other ways for it to attack.Perhaps I could limit the damage output? This is supposed to be the 'main' telekinetic attack of the class, so I believe that at-will is a must.

Yeah, but the warlock isn't really very good at blasting to begin with. The main concern I see with Concussion Blast is that, on a second look-over, it's no-attack no-save, which is a bit much if it's not supposed to be the focus. (If it's supposed to be the centerpiece of the class, then honestly I don't think it's too much - it's strong, but not crazy-strong.)Hmm. Didn't notice the no attack/no save bit.

Looking at the psurlon entry in Lords of Madness, it says they almost exclusively fight with their telekinetic powers. If the class is supposed to capture the feel of the creature, it pretty much needs either a ton of uses or an at-will telekinetic attack power. Maybe give it a similar-but-not-identical PLA that requires an attack roll or saving throw? (Similar to how Brain In A Jar's Mental Blast doesn't exactly line up with any existing psionic power.)

Regarding counting as a manifesting class, the Psionics entry here gives it an ML equal to its HD.

A power doesn't need to be required for basic functionality before it qualifies to be designated at-will, I'd think. Rather, the criteria should be that it doesn't unbalance the game and that it lets you actually play like the creature you're supposed to be.You know, I'm thinking...

Brain in a jar is also incapable of wielding weapons, the attack can only target one creature, and it requires a will save. Yes it does. At level 7. Gust of wind also does not give you a +7 armor boost to AC at that level, and the breath has to be maintained in order for its benefit to remain. The fire elementa's spitfire ability is also barely above a first level spell in terms of damage at level 20. yes, but it is a damage dealing ability, the subject gets a reflex save, evasion applies to it, and its once every 1d4 rounds, not at will.

If that were the case, I wouldn't mind, but I don't see any reason the psurlon needs inertial armor or concussive blast at will in order to function as the appropriate monster.

EDIT: The version I'm looking at doesn't have either as at wills. It has mage armor, sound burst, and detect thoughts as at wills. The giant Psurlon does, but that's a CR 11 monster as opposed to the standard Psurlon which is cr 5. Also Dsmiles, I suggest just using the SLAs given for the average Psurlon at the moment, and only adding in the others if you want to make it a level 11 class.The wheels are turning, give me a sec.

Inertial armor at will is more or less the same that a scalinbg armor bonus tht saves the player to remember he's got some more four uses that last seven hours and that he can only cast on himself. Please keep it at will.

The blast is part of the lore of the monster as already mentioned, and it scales with level. it seems to me to be the base of the whole monster class, a psionic worm that fights with telepathy.I think 1/day/ML is good for inertial armor. It gives 3 uses covering 21 hours.

No, concussive blast is not a specific part of the lore, it just says "Mental blasts" I suggest changing conussive blast to its own ability for the Psurlon to kill enemies with, since it doesn't get the blast at first level anyway and putting the ability at first level. The fluff and combat strategy also seem to disagree here, as there is no mention of using a mental blast in the combat strategy for a Psurlon. Although, that may be because the original monster doesn't actually have one.

The fluff is really kind of screwy here.

EDIT: Another reason I don't like inertial armor is that, despite the class not being a melee monster, it gets a melee class type ability for an at will.OK, here it is: Inertial Armor 1/day/ML. Sound good? Great. Moving on.

Concussion Blast At-Will, limited to 3d6 damage and one target. The Elder Psurlon and Giant Psurlon PrCs will improve this ability to be more in line with a scaling ability.
I think I covered the main points. Let me know if I missed anything.

EDIT: Updated original monster entry.

Frog Dragon
2011-02-26, 08:49 AM
Critiques in blue.


Hit Dice: d8

{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Class Features

1st|
+0|
+0|
+0|
+2|Worm Body, Blindsight, Immunities, Psionics, Telepathy

2nd|
+1|
+0|
+0|
+3|Ability Bonus (STR +2, WIS +2, CHA +2), Combat Manifestation, Psionics

3rd|
+2|
+1|
+1|
+3|Ability Bonus (DEX +2, INT +2), Damage Reduction, Psionics

4th|
+3|
+1|
+1|
+4|Ability Bonus (CON +2, CHA +2), Power Resistance, Psionics

5th|
+3|
+1|
+1|
+4|Ability Bonus (DEX +2, INT +4) Convoluted Mind, Psionics [/table]

Skills Points at First Level: (4+Intelligence Modifier) x 4
Skills Points at Each Level: (4+Intelligence Modifier)
Class Skills: The Psurlon's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Bluff (Cha), Concentration (Con), Diplomacy (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (Dungeoneering), Knowledge (Psionics) (Int), Psicraft (Int), and Sense Motive (Wis). Skills seem okay, and appropriate to the critter.

Proficiencies: The Psurlon gains is proficient with only its natural weapons. Psurlons gain no proficiency with armor or shields.

Psurlon Class Features: The following are the Class Features of the Psurlon.

Worm Body: At first level the Psurlon loses all racial traits. They become a Medium Aberration. They gain a bite attack as a primary natural weapon, dealing 1d6 damage. A Psurlon also has a two claw attacks as secondary natural weapons, which deal 1d4 damage. A Psurlon's primary natural weapons add their STR modifier to damage, and their secondary natural weapons add half of their STR modifier. A Psurlon has darkvision to a range of 120 ft. They also have a +4 racial bonus on Escape Artist checks due to their soft and flexible bodies. A Psurlon gains a +2 bonus to their Intelligence and Charisma scores. This seems to be a monster focused on its mental powers. Does it really need three natural attacks right off the bat? For that matter, the creature should only have the ability bonuses that either define it as a creature or help its shtick. In this case, the creature should not have bonuses to all six stats, and should probably instead have just intelligence and charisma bonuses, and even those should cap off at +5 for now. Also, there should be a specific ability, titled something like "ability bonuses" which lists and totals the bonuses you get by taking the class.

Blindsight: A Psurlon can ascertain its surroundings by sensing sound, scent, heat, and vibration. This ability allows it to discern objects and creatures within 60'. The Psurlon does not normally need to make Spot or Listen checks to notice creatures within range of its blindsight. This is a powerful observational ability for level 1, but given the existence of Darkstalker, it can probably slide.

Immunities: Psurlons are immune to sleep, charm, and compulsion effects. Immunities, not much to say.

Psionics: Psurlons are naturally psionic creatures and gain 1 bonus power point at 1st level. They also gain the following powers as Psi-like abilities at first level: inertial armor (1/day per manifester level) and brain lock (1/day per manifester level).
At second level, the Psurlon gains the following Psi-like abilities: concussion blast (3d6, single target, at will) and cloud mind (1/day per manifester level).
At third level, Psurlons gain the following Psi-like abilities: read thoughts (at will) and telekinetic thrust (1/day per 2 manifester levels).
At fourth level, the Psurlon gains the following Psi-like ability: telekinetic maneuver (1/day per 2 manifester levels).
At fifth level, Psurlons gain the following Psi-like abilities: energy bolt (1/day/per manifester level) (There seems to be an extra "/" here.) and psionic dimension door (1/day per two manifester levels).
A Psurlon's manifester level is equal to its Hit Dice, and the save DCs are Charisma-based. It is customary to list the "Psionics" ability at first level, followed by the granted abilities in italics. At later levels, instead of "psionics", it could read Concussion Blast&Cloud Mind.
I don't see a real problem with the psi-like abilities, since even Dim Door doesn't come in before flight would come in in a normal game, so it doesn't really bring obstacle dodging powers any earlier than usual.

Telepathy: A Psurlon can communicate with any creature that has a language telepathically, within 50 ft per Hit Die. Soo... at level 20, you have telepathy out to 1000ft... wow. I'm not sure about the scaling in the first place, but it should at least be capped.

Combat Manifestation: At second level, the Psurlon gains Combat Manifestation as a bonus feat. Bonus feats are boring. But okay.

Damage Reduction: Beginning at third level the Psurlon gains Damage Reduction equal to (1/2HD)/psionic. DR/Psionic? How does that work? :smallconfused:

Power Resistance: At fourth level, the Psurlon gains Power Resistance equal to 10 plus its Hit Dice Power resistance. Pretty basic. Okay.

Convoluted Mind: At fifth level the Psurlon's neural pathways become twisted and a mental door unlocks. The Psurlon manifests its psi-like abilities as if it had 2 extra Hit Dice. So, essentially, free extra scaling for psionic powers. You might want to clarify if this also gives an extra use of the Psi-Like-Abilities.
Apart from the problems I outlined, it could probably use something a bit more interesting than just a glob of psi-like-abilities. Flavor text is your friend here.

TheGeckoKing
2011-02-26, 08:58 AM
The vivisector seems really cool now. I would just add the following:

Choice Cuts: At 3rd level, when a Vivisector successfully uses its Vivisection or Dissection ability on a creature and kills them with it, they may scoop up the organs extracted, eat them, and pick a bonus from the following list, as a free action. (...) A Vivisector can also use Choice Cuts on a creature that died by other causes, but only if the creature has been dead by no longer than 1 minute.

One of my players would love use it.

Will do.
Also, Hazzardevil brings up a good point. What happens if an undead dies and is Ressurected? Do they lose their class abilities until they're re-undead-ified?

DiBastet
2011-02-26, 09:05 AM
DR/Psionic? How does that work?

It's probably the same as DR / Magic since in EPH there are references to Power Resistance (equals magic resistance) and things like this. In most campaigns a psionic weapons counts as magic weapons for purposes of defeating DR.

It was either a typo or he wanted to leave it like this: In most campaigns, magic weapons count, if you use Psionics are Different then it must be a psionic weapon...

dsmiles
2011-02-26, 09:12 AM
This seems to be a monster focused on its mental powers. Does it really need three natural attacks right off the bat? For that matter, the creature should only have the ability bonuses that either define it as a creature or help its shtick. In this case, the creature should not have bonuses to all six stats, and should probably instead have just intelligence and charisma bonuses, and even those should cap off at +5 for now. Also, there should be a specific ability, titled something like "ability bonuses" which lists and totals the bonuses you get by taking the class.So...ability bonuses listed in the monster's original entry are null and void? I can live with that. I'll move the claws to...3rd?

This is a powerful observational ability for level 1, but given the existence of Darkstalker, it can probably slide.Meh. I'm not married to blindsight, but the fluff kind of fits. Giant psionic earthworm, and all. Move it to 2nd?

It is customary to list the "Psionics" ability at first level, followed by the granted abilities in italics. At later levels, instead of "psionics", it could read Concussion Blast&Cloud Mind.Too easy.

Soo... at level 20, you have telepathy out to 1000ft... wow. I'm not sure about the scaling in the first place, but it should at least be capped.I'll change the wording, then. I though I implied that it capped at level 5. No problem.

DR/Psionic? How does that work?Psionically enhanced weapons via Craft Psionic Arms and Armor, just like DR/magic is for magically enhanced weapons.

So, essentially, free extra scaling for psionic powers. You might want to clarify if this also gives an extra use of the Psi-Like-Abilities.Well...it's a 7HD creature, but the thread guidelines suggested to not go over the creature's CR. So I went with 5HD + 2 extra ML. Should I go 7HD?

Apart from the problems I outlined, it could probably use something a bit more interesting than just a glob of psi-like-abilities. Flavor text is your friend here.Yeah, I'm working on the fluff text for the abilities. The monster entry doesn't list much...stupid WotC. :smallannoyed:

EDIT: Updated.
Also: @DiBastet: Yes, I use the Psionics are Different variant, but in a Psionics are the Same campaign setting, like FR, DR/Psionic is the same as DR/magic. You are correct.

Lix Lorn
2011-02-26, 09:48 AM
Sith? Sylvanas?
If you're arguing over one against the other, you have not heard of the power of Combine and Conquer!
....The darkest lady will have a word with you later.
In the name of Kane: PEACE THROUGH POWER.


But if it's that same then on death knight it has conflicting abilities, one says it can be ressurected and get turned into a living being before it became a death knight, what I want to know is that if you get ressurected you lose your death knight abilities, I don't know if you gain levels to replace it.
From Races of the Dragon: If you no longer qualify for a prestige class, you lose the benefit of any class features or special abilities granted by the class. You retain hit dice gained from advancing in the class, as well as any improvements to base attack bonus and base save bonuses that the class provided. If you later meet all the prerequisites for the class, you regain the benefits.

tl;dr, you lose all class abilities, but not hit die, BAB, or saves. It doesn't specify on skills, but I'd rule you keep them.

TheGeckoKing
2011-02-26, 09:51 AM
From Races of the Dragon: If you no longer qualify for a prestige class, you lose the benefit of any class features or special abilities granted by the class. You retain hit dice gained from advancing in the class, as well as any improvements to base attack bonus and base save bonuses that the class provided. If you later meet all the prerequisites for the class, you regain the benefits.

tl;dr, you lose all class abilities, but not hit die, BAB, or saves. It doesn't specify on skills, but I'd rule you keep them.

I'd say that's about right......would be a pain to re-undead-ify yourself short of DM Fiat though.

Frog Dragon
2011-02-26, 09:58 AM
So...ability bonuses listed in the monster's original entry are null and void? I can live with that. I'll move the claws to...3rd? Yes, the original ability scores are indeed null and void. Also, bonuses should come in increments of +1 in this project.
Meh. I'm not married to blindsight, but the fluff kind of fits. Giant psionic earthworm, and all. Move it to 2nd? Doesn't make that much of a difference, really.
Too easy.
I'll change the wording, then. I though I implied that it capped at level 5. No problem. HD in this project always means ALL HD, not just Monstrous HD. Which is really how it should be, so the scaling keeps things relevant.
Psionically enhanced weapons via Craft Psionic Arms and Armor, just like DR/magic is for magically enhanced weapons. Okay, it was just a little nonstandard. I don't really see the point of the distinction.
Well...it's a 7HD creature, but the thread guidelines suggested to not go over the creature's CR. So I went with 5HD + 2 extra ML. Should I go 7HD? No, you shouldn't. Again, creatures are supposed to keep gaining some racial benefits after they finish the class.
Yeah, I'm working on the fluff text for the abilities. The monster entry doesn't list much...stupid WotC. :smallannoyed: The thing is fixating on a random four word sentence in the monster description. :smalltongue: For example, what if you gave them abilities relating to them being manipulative SoBs?

EDIT: Updated.
Also: @DiBastet: Yes, I use the Psionics are Different variant, but in a Psionics are the Same campaign setting, like FR, DR/Psionic is the same as DR/magic. You are correct.
Flying half-badger unicorns taste good sprinkled with a little salt.

Hyudra
2011-02-26, 10:04 AM
So...ability bonuses listed in the monster's original entry are null and void? I can live with that. I'll move the claws to...3rd?

Yeah. We're not married to the rules of the type, the original creature's stat bonuses, etc. Generally speaking, we cut most of the attribute bonuses (so no Hill Giants with +14 Str at 5th level) and then stick to giving attribute bonuses that are both flavorful and deemed necessary.

The primary goal, remember, is that we're striving for monsters that make good classes.

You may have glanced over it - I did make a post dubbed 'Writing up a Monster Class, a Guide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10450355&postcount=743)' last night. Some of the stuff in there might help as far as getting into the project mindset. Don't know.

So with all that in mind, a few things that caught my eye:
Most monsters don't have a fluff & a crunch box in each post. For those who assume your monster follows usual format, clicking on the first spoiler to see the monster stats & rules, they're just getting fluff. Including such isn't a bad idea (unless you're copying directly from copyrighted material, in which case it is problematic), just try to aim more for convention as far as formatting goes. The fluff could be in a sub-spoiler in the comments, for example.
On the table, it's convention (and looks nicer) to list Core Ability, Ability, Stat bonus... with Core abilities being those archetypical ones that keep coming up (Psurlon Body, Growth) other abilities being whatever you came up with, and the Stat Bonuses being the stats gained with the level, appearing last.
As I implied above, we're not stuck on the type HD, skills, proficiencies, etc. We do try to pick stuff that makes sense, but try to pick HD/Skills/proficiencies/whatever that make sense for your monster as a class. At times, so long as it supports the flavor, we've even taken away abilities and replaced them with close equivalents that fit the class we were intending to portray better. I do believe this latter point is what Kyuubi was going for in reference to the concussion blast.
Just glancing over the Psurloin Psurlon, it seems it doesn't know what it wants to be, rolewise. What role is this taking in a group? I ask because...
At 1st level we've got fairly big HD (d8), three natural attacks and one of our two psionic abilities grants us armor, giving the impression of a psionically augmented beatstick.
But then it sorta drops this, thematically, gaining a fairly extensive repertoire of PLAs that make it something more like a psionic caster, while still having fairly beefy HD, gaining a bunch of defenses (DR, PR, etc).

That isn't an extensive critique, just my impressions from going over it once. Hope it helps with the design direction. Do ask questions if they come up. The others seem to be doing a good job as far as reviewing goes.

Edit: I realize, now, that I did you a disservice by linking you to Chumplump's post with the monster class copy-paste form, I'd sorta been under the impression you just wanted the table, but you used the entire monster class. I say it's a disservice because the monster class form there is kinda outdated and there's a bunch of stuff that tends to bug me or that I tend to ask people to change. You already fixed some of it, and I guess I'll get to the rest when I do a solid critique of the Psurloin Psurlon, but just let me apologize in advance.

I'll be replacing the link to Chumplump's post with a link to my own. :smallsigh:

dsmiles
2011-02-26, 10:43 AM
Frog Demon & Hyudra: Thanks. I'll have to get back to this a little later on today, my RL game starts in an hour. :smallsmile:

Frog Dragon
2011-02-26, 10:53 AM
Frog Demon & Hyudra: Thanks. I'll have to get back to this a little later on today, my RL game starts in an hour. :smallsmile:
It's Dragon, not Demon :smalltongue:.

Benly
2011-02-26, 11:00 AM
No, concussive blast is not a specific part of the lore, it just says "Mental blasts" I suggest changing conussive blast to its own ability for the Psurlon to kill enemies with, since it doesn't get the blast at first level anyway and putting the ability at first level. The fluff and combat strategy also seem to disagree here, as there is no mention of using a mental blast in the combat strategy for a Psurlon. Although, that may be because the original monster doesn't actually have one.

The fluff is really kind of screwy here.

"Psurlons never use melee weapons. They can fight with their bare claws and teeth, but they are not particularly formidable in melee combat. Instead, they attack with their psionic powers, battering foes with telekinetic blasts or immobilizing them with mental energy."

To me it sounds like having a psychic-focused combat style is most appropriate. Letting the mental blast scale reasonably at the expense of the natural weapons and physical stats slacking off would make sense to me.

dsmiles
2011-02-26, 11:17 AM
It's Dragon, not Demon :smalltongue:.

My bad, yo.

Mystic Muse
2011-02-26, 03:25 PM
Sure dark lord. Or lady. Or whatever.

Better, sure Sith Master. You see, you could say that it has a natural armor bonus equal to Con or something like this, or it could gain inertial armor. Inertial armor, as a psi-like ability, advances with level. It's just like casting a mage armor that advances with level (and mage armor is very mage-like, huh?) There are many many different types of mages, and an armor type ability fits for certain concepts. Its the same case with Wilders and Psions. This is not the case with Psurlon which the fluff specifically states is not a melee monster. The player can make them one, but it shouldn't have inertial armor at will according to its original fluff.
It's the very same as giving a scaling amount of armor bonus or natural armor bonus, except that as you see, can be dispelled. Not really. I can't think of many classes that will have a natural armor bonus of +4 at first, +5 at secdond, +6 at third, ETC. and those I'm aware of that do are melee monsters. Granted, its dispelable, but when its at will, there's not much reason to dispel it.



It could very well read that it haves an inertial armor effect always active. At least for me it seems much more flavorful to give an inertial armor always on than the old Natural Armor = Con score... Helps with the "soft fragile worm with mental powers" thing. To me it takes away from the "Soft fragile worm with mental powers" thing.


"Psurlons never use melee weapons. They can fight with their bare claws and teeth, but they are not particularly formidable in melee combat. Instead, they attack with their psionic powers, battering foes with telekinetic blasts or immobilizing them with mental energy."

To me it sounds like having a psychic-focused combat style is most appropriate. Letting the mental blast scale reasonably at the expense of the natural weapons and physical stats slacking off would make sense to me. Yes, if it scales Reasonably. Concussion blast really didn't, but dsmiles has changed it, and now I don't mind it.

Benly
2011-02-26, 03:41 PM
The player can make them one, but it shouldn't have inertial armor at will according to its original fluff. Not really. I can't think of many classes that will have a natural armor bonus of +4 at first, +5 at secdond, +6 at third, ETC. and those I'm aware of that do are melee monsters.

It would actually be +4 at first, +5 at third, +6 at fifth, etc. That said, I think that the designers didn't take into account Inertial Armor's scaling when they designed the monster - the statblocks all use Mage Armor's nonscaling bonus. Maybe a flat "main stat as deflection bonus to AC" ability would work better - it still scales, but it's much less sharp.



Yes, if it scales Reasonably. Concussion blast really didn't, but dsmiles has changed it, and now I don't mind it.

Looking at the original creature's stat block in detail, they actually did something interesting. They do scale Concussion Blast, but they force its augmentation after the first 3d6 to be split between damage and targets. It seems that the monster class could do something like that, scaling up damage and number of targets in alternation.

Mystic Muse
2011-02-26, 04:10 PM
It would actually be +4 at first, +5 at third, +6 at fifth, etc. That said, I think that the designers didn't take into account Inertial Armor's scaling when they designed the monster - the statblocks all use Mage Armor's nonscaling bonus. Maybe a flat "main stat as deflection bonus to AC" ability would work better - it still scales, but it's much less sharp. Yeah, that could work.





Looking at the original creature's stat block in detail, they actually did something interesting. They do scale Concussion Blast, but they force its augmentation after the first 3d6 to be split between damage and targets. It seems that the monster class could do something like that, scaling up damage and number of targets in alternation. Hmm. I'm not sure what I'll think of this until I see it implemented.

Benly
2011-02-26, 04:38 PM
Hmm. I'm not sure what I'll think of this until I see it implemented.

The main thing is that as it stands, Concussion Blast is a great ability when the Psurlon first gets it and quickly becomes terrible. If it's going to fight using Concussion Blast as a primary offense, it needs to do more than "3d6 damage to one target as a standard action". The other abilities don't feel like they have enough uses, to me.

For my part, I quite like the original damage scaling it has as a class's at-will fallback attack (1d6 at first, an additional 1d6 at each odd level after that). My only problem with it is the no save/no attack roll, and I think a saving throw would make it perfectly fine. Internally, I'm comparing it to the brain in a jar's Mind Thrust, since that's the monster class I most recently used - the BIAJ has problems the Psurlon doesn't, but I find that ability a pretty good basis for a psychic blasty class's staple offense.

If I were to think of something from the ground up for the psurlon, I would probably make it something like "Telekinetic Blast (Ps): The psurlon fires a blast of telekinetic force at a single target, dealing 1d8 damage (Fortitude save for half). This damage increases by 1d8 at third level, and again at every odd-numbered level after that. The psurlon may target more than one creature with this ability, but each additional target reduces the damage dealt by 1d8. The psurlon may not add more targets if doing so would reduce the damage of the telekinetic blast below 1d8 damage."

It has a fortitude save, so the issue of inescapable damage is avoided. It's slightly less damage than BIAJ's Mind Thrust, but the Mind Thrust is mind-affecting so that's a fair tradeoff to me.

Noxsis
2011-02-26, 04:41 PM
can i requst a few monster classes which are infernal, shadow elemental and sadly a nightwalker one as the old one seems to have been removed

Mystic Muse
2011-02-26, 04:48 PM
can i requst a few monster classes which are infernal, shadow elemental and sadly a nightwalker one as the old one seems to have been removed

Please list the sources of the monsters. Also, I wouldn't expect the infernal any time soon. There are already several level 20 monsters that are being worked on.

Noxsis
2011-02-26, 04:52 PM
nightwalker is from MM, shadow elmental is from ToM, and infernal is from epic level handbook also any other creature from the shadow magic chapter in ToM would be nice but il setle for the first three though

Hyudra
2011-02-26, 05:00 PM
The old Nightwalker was removed from the list of links because the first user to start it (Oslecamo) got banned, and the second (Megawizard) let me know via. PM that he was leaving GitP.

Noxsis
2011-02-26, 05:02 PM
the reason why its its gone isint really important what is important is that it IS gone

Hyudra
2011-02-26, 05:21 PM
the reason why its its gone isint really important what is important is that it IS gone

Well, if it's any consolation, it was pretty poorly done, so you didn't miss out on much.

Noxsis
2011-02-26, 05:23 PM
it still needs to be replaced. agreed?

Frog Dragon
2011-02-26, 06:02 PM
The balance of the dragon classes is something that has been raised up, and which I am not so sure about. While the three natural attacks at first level in the older dragons are a real problem, given that the only other critter that gets them is the RotD Web Enhancement kobold, who has a -4 strength penalty.

Whatever minor dragon-specific abilities the dragons gain is usually of little import to game balance, and most of the power comes from the chassis itself here, which is casting, mobility and combat power, all of which the dragon has. The dragon is a frontliner on par with the barbarian, with a helping of bard casting. Certainly seems impressive, maybe even overpowered. However, the bard casting is not "true" bard casting, and spells are instead chosen from either the sorcerer or the cleric (druid, with my Black Dragon) lists. This means that the spells it gains cap off at a lower threshold of effectiveness, since bards gain some spells at much lower spell levels than other classes. Irresistible Dance is a good example.

I figure the dragon comes out to about tier 2, but it does stack a lot of power, from combat skills to spellcasting to excellent flying mobility. However, since we are typically shooting for tier 3, and it uses a bard base, the dragons may well be too powerful for the intended power level of this project. However, they are not really that broken, like, for example, the Black Ethergaunt, so even if they do need a fix, it probably isn't very high on our list.[/Rant]

Hyudra
2011-02-26, 07:28 PM
The balance of the dragon classes is something that has been raised up, and which I am not so sure about. While the three natural attacks at first level in the older dragons are a real problem, given that the only other critter that gets them is the RotD Web Enhancement kobold, who has a -4 strength penalty.

Whatever minor dragon-specific abilities the dragons gain is usually of little import to game balance, and most of the power comes from the chassis itself here, which is casting, mobility and combat power, all of which the dragon has. The dragon is a frontliner on par with the barbarian, with a helping of bard casting. Certainly seems impressive, maybe even overpowered. However, the bard casting is not "true" bard casting, and spells are instead chosen from either the sorcerer or the cleric (druid, with my Black Dragon) lists. This means that the spells it gains cap off at a lower threshold of effectiveness, since bards gain some spells at much lower spell levels than other classes. Irresistible Dance is a good example.

I figure the dragon comes out to about tier 2, but it does stack a lot of power, from combat skills to spellcasting to excellent flying mobility. However, since we are typically shooting for tier 3, and it uses a bard base, the dragons may well be too powerful for the intended power level of this project. However, they are not really that broken, like, for example, the Black Ethergaunt, so even if they do need a fix, it probably isn't very high on our list.[/Rant]

Wondering what prompted that rant. I appreciate hearing it - I do like discussion on balance & methodology, because it helps us hammer stuff out, but I just wonder where it came from.

My issue with the Dragon is that, much like the Druid, it's a very hard class to build wrong. Assuming you have a passable grasp of the game, and that you're not being daft with stuff like attribute allocation, you can pick up the Red Dragon monster class and easily be head and shoulders above the rest of the group in terms of general effectiveness and what you're bringing to the table. MAD aside, they've got no meaningful drawbacks.

What's more is that it's (again, like the Druid) a very easy class to optimize, to a degree that you can do it almost accidentally. Not only are there scads of sourcebooks out there relating to or dedicated to Dragons alone (Draconomicon, Races of the Dragon, Dragon Magic, Dragons of Eberron, etc), but Dragons lend themselves exceptionally well to building off of feats, classes, spells and class features that assume either a humanoid chassis or a monster one, and then taking those feats/abilities/spells/whatever the extra mile. So in the former case (scads of sourcebooks) you've got stuff out there like entangling exhalation... essentially a no-save entangle tacked onto your breath weapon at the cost of halving the damage you do. It's the ultimate support/battlefield control skill that trivializes many encounters, even into mid-high levels. In the latter case (using stuff intended for humanoids) you've got the threat of dragons taking initiator levels to couple six natural attacks with punishing stance (at the very mildest) to add +1d6 damage to every attack... at a stage in the game where it's assumed players will have two or three-at-the-most attacks in a round. Or (again, second case), just throw down obscuring mist to auto-win half your fights.

So there's that, which means Dragons are a headache, and they're a headache both for DMs and for those of us who have to keep an eye out for power creep with each successive Dragon that could potentially take Dragons beyond the high end of Tier 2.

Then I have to concede, I hate the flavor of the dragon monster classes as they are portrayed in these threads. They don't feel draconic to me. They're majestic, impressive and terrifying only insofar as they are borderline overpowered. Not game breaking on the ethergaunt level, that's true, but still borderline overpowered.

And there's the fact that so many of them are the same, beyond a half dozen abilities... which makes them boring.

Finally, all of the above is compounded by the fact that each new dragon that comes out has the same overall set of issues. Non-true dragons without the bardish spellcasting less so, and less so for the more recent dragons that've toned down somewhat, but still, many of the above issues do persist. So it's a bunch of problems that might be able to be overlooked, repeating to varying extents over a dozen different dragons.

So that's the basis for my grumbling and groaning whenever I approach the review and critique of a new dragon.

Lix Lorn
2011-02-26, 08:52 PM
Maybe you should try doing one? Crystal perhaps, I like Crystal, but any of the true(ish) dragons, to provide a template..?

ScionoftheVoid
2011-02-26, 09:07 PM
I'm officially taking on the Verdant Prince (MMIV) since I only have one creature and it should be near completion.

On a related note, when checking the list for my Lodestone Marauder I found it was credited to Zemro Shivic (spelling may be off). I am, to say the least, glad I checked.

Hyudra
2011-02-26, 09:24 PM
Fixed, Scion. My apologies. I realized, reading over the list, that I'd somehow left the Lodestone Marauder off the list despite taking it off the abandoned list, so I put it up and falsely credited it in the doing (likely because I'd also recently posted the Marrash, which was done by Zemro).

So again, apologies.

ScionoftheVoid
2011-02-26, 09:38 PM
Fixed, Scion. My apologies. I realized, reading over the list, that I'd somehow left the Lodestone Marauder off the list despite taking it off the abandoned list, so I put it up and falsely credited it in the doing (likely because I'd also recently posted the Marrash, which was done by Zemro).

So again, apologies.

No problem. You've done an awful lot for this project (which I thank you for), it would be unfair to expect you not to make an occasional mistake.

Saidoro
2011-02-26, 09:49 PM
Chuul (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10414321&postcount=585)
"Lobster-Squid-Fish-Man Body:" -> rename to Chuul body? Standardization! Boring, but probably a good idea. Done.
"Additionally the chuul may choose to ignore the frail power of the gods, gaining spell resistance 10+HD against divine spells only." -> "frail power of the gods" seems out of place. Also, a bit early to be gaining spell resistance. "Dweller" is a cosmic horror option, and in order to have cosmic horror in a setting like that of default DnD where you have literal gods running around you need to make the gods a lot less threatening to the horrors than we'd want them to be. That's what the spell resistance is for. for your second point, we've got things gaining spell resistance at levels 2 and 3, half(or less) spell resistance at first isn't too bad.
The attribute bonuses to wisdom need to be better clarified on the table, since the way it's shown, it implies it's the player's choice. Done.
Again, under experiment gone awry, feels a bit early to be getting SR (other creatures get it at 2nd level at the earliest.)
The constrict bonus... That's a pretty sizable bonus. In fact, what it looks like you're doing is making That Damn Crab. That is, you've got an absolute grab/constrict machine. For example: This'll probably be the main difficulty... I think I'll make it so that you can't constrict in the same round that you initiate a grapple(or something like that) that should take away the one-turn kill capabilities and remove crazy "Grapple, throw at square next to me grapple again..." type combos

Charlie the Chuul with Experiment Gone Awry origin attacks Nancy the Warlock, both level 2. Charlie's got a +6 attack bonus, and Nancy's got AC 16. Charlie makes a full attack against Nancy, Delivering two attacks, Charlie needs a 10+ to hit. Two 50% chances to hit.

Assuming Charlie does land a hit (odds are in his favor), he deals 1d8+5 damage, makes a grapple check (+5 from Str bonus, so odds again liable to be in his favor against a typical humanoid) and deals 2d6+5 damage if successful. Charlie's got 7 average claw damage (two claws that can hit) and 12 average constrict damage. Nancy's liable to have 15hp.
It's a bit too much.
@Tentacles: Don't use .5Str It's hard to read and can be very much misinterpreted. Use 1/2 or ½. (The latter can be made by turning on numlock, holding alt, typing 1, 7, 1 on numpad, then releasing alt). Done.
Third level, armor spikes. Adding gravy to the grapple monstrosity. May be a bit much, but this issue should go away when you've got the rest of the grapple engine sorted out.
@ lurking predator: I don't like a dependence on water. It's not necessarily that common (or consistently common) as terrain features go, and it tends to make for a creature that is fantastic in some environments and terrible in others. It's like favored enemy/favored terrain. You're only really special when your favored enemy/terrain isn't on the field. Presumably this would be chosen mostly in campaigns where there is a reasonable chance of being near water in most fights. Still, I'll come up with some slightly lesser benefit for other environments.
@ otherworldly preacher: 'this does not scale after it is gained' - don't do this. It forces players to procrastinate on gaining levels in the monster class until the latest possible time. It only gives ranks equal to chuul levels, not levels in other classes.
@ one among many: Ok, so I've got the murderous claw/improved grapple/constrict machine in place. Now, in the battle against the BBEG, I can gain +3 claw attacks. This will make DMs throw heavy books at you. I will switch it to have more uses but less bonus claws.
@ Entangling Tentacles: Entangled isn't the right condition for this, given the flavor text. Entangled tends to refer to an external impediment to movement. If you left goopy slime on them, that'd work, but a numbing poison, not so much. It's traditionally used as such, yes. But the thing is, the mechanical effects of entangled fit "mildly paralyzed" to a tee.
@ Human Shield: What type of action is this? Might want to make it an immediate action. Okay.
@ Grasping tentacles: I get that you're making a grapple monster here, but I think it's a bit too much. Consider that you can, as written, full attack, deal a bonus 5 claw attacks and a tentacles attack. Each attack has damage combined with a chance to grab & constrict. Hopefully this will be less of an issue after the constrict change.
@ Madness: Inoculation against insanity needs to be better defined, as it's pretty broad. As it says 2 sentences later, it gives immunity to fear and confusion. This ability is one of those that'll bog down combat if you're not careful (and I fear you've not been careful). You're asking for a lot of will saves (assuming you go from 5th level to 20th, that's 185ish encounters, with most involving an enemy being in close proximity to the Chuul for 1-2 rounds. Let's say there's, on average, 1 enemy in range of the Chuul for 1.5 rounds per combat. That's 278ish will saves, 278 or so rolls on confusion table. Beyond that, you've got what amounts to a save or lose that doesn't require an action of the Chuul's part, so he's taking enemies out of combat without even trying. This is a problem. I'll work something out to make this an active ability.
@ Throw: Too many words! You get into all these side examples (touch attacks, fire elemental vs. water elemental) that don't necessarily even apply. (I throw a ghoul at someone, they get paralyzed every time? Yes.)
"No grapple check must be made if the chuul is grappling a creature that it does not count as grappled by." is awkwardly worded. Plus an overuse of the word 'grappled'.
Arguably too much damage considering how easy it is to set up. I mean, consider:

6th level Chuul against 6th level Warlock. Chuul has 22 Str and large size. Hits with a claw for 2d6+6 damage, gets an improved grapple check (+6 from Str, +4 from size, total of +10), liable to win. Warlock grappled, takes 2d6+6 damage from constrict.

Next turn, Chuul throws victim. Grapple check (+15 bonus), constrict damage (2d6+6), throw Warlock at another enemy, dealing 2d6+6 damage to each.

2 standard actions, and aside from just needing that one successful claw hit (not a horrible chance at happening), you've got a system that deals about 65 damage total, on average (52 to warlock, 13 to alternate victim), with a maximum of 90 total damage. Again, worth stressing, a sixth level foe has somewhere in the neighborhood of 45-50 hp.
@ Paralytic Tentacles: Why the flat 6 round duration? Also, this is just icing on the OmgWtfGrapple cake.
@ Devour Faith: What's this obsession people have with abilities that screw over divine casters? I mean, not complaining, per se, but I think there's three or four monsters on the unfinished list that do this sort of thing.

The loss of prepared spells is a bit much, especially since it's costing the cleric his or her best spells.
{table=head]Category|Score
Originality|Decent. I've been wanting to see a more grapple focused monster. I like the tentacles, which have dynamic with grapple & add an interesting choice there.
Playability| Good here. It looks to have a fairly defined role - get in close and grapple the biggest threat, or just tear **** up, which it does look like it can do. Could maybe use more tactical options in combat.
Power|Power concerns as listed above, namely that it emulates That Damn Crab in the grapple machine. Devour Faith is maybe too powerful considering you can strip enemy divine casters of their best spells.
Elegance|Stuff needs clarification, abilities need tweaking.
Flavor|I like that you have different options for different backgrounds. Goes a long way. The mechanics don't really sell the flavor though, and the flavor text was just a bit dry. I am not a good writer. I'll try to improve the flavor text when I'm done with the actual mechanics but don't expect too much. Good enough, but not 'wow'.
[/table]


Changelog
February 26
changed Lobster-Squid-Fish-Man body to Chuul Body.
reworded stat bonuses in table.
Added no first round constrict clause.
Changed .5s to ½s.
Added the word modifier in lots of places.
Added bonus damage to Lurking Predator.
Reworked One among many's extra attacks.
Madness changed from constant effect to move action effect.
Added Secondary Traits


Cloaker (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10126561&postcount=23)
"Skills Points at 1rst Level" - just say 1st or better yet, first. Done.

Razor Boar (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10227868&postcount=139)
"Skills Points at 1rst Level:" should be 1st or first. Latter preferred. Done.
Perhaps change 'low growls' in Razor Boar Body to 'snorts and growls'? Done.
Surge of Force:
HD+4 is a lot of surges of strength. Maybe change to 'A number of times per day equal to its HD or its Str mod' - this, I'm finding, is a good way to offer a good few uses at low levels while ensuring it scales smoothly into higher levels. With that, the Razor Boar will typically have about 4 to start with, maybe 5 at second and third levels, and then plateau out. Done.
In any case, 'Once per day per HD+4' is awkward. Why not five times a day + the Razor Boar's HD?
Trample:
Don't use '.5HD'. Changed to ½.
"A boar that scents a foe that has injured it in the last 24 hours gets +10 ft to their movement speed and ignores terrain for the purpose of calculating overland movement as long as they are pursuing that foe." - Is the +10' movement speed only for the overland movement? It's kind of confusing as read. Perhaps 'A boar that scents a foe that has injured it in the last 24 hours gets +10' to its movement speed as long as it is pursuing that foe. It ignores terrain hindrances for the purposes of calculating overland movement while tracking that foe.' That's only if you meant the two to be read as separate. If they're the same, try to reword to emphasize that fact. It's the prior. Done.
Wrench:
"Against manufactured weapons this is treated as a disarm attempt for which the boar is treated as wielding a two-handed weapon." - you use 'treated' two times there. Reword to 'for which the boar is considered to be wielding a two-handed weapon." ? Done.
"a reflex save DC 10 + .5 HD + str." - don't use '.5 HD'. Also, stress Str mod. Done.
Sharp Tusks:
"Additionally, whenever the boar threatens a critical hit its critical multiplier increases by 1 for each point the unmodified attack roll was higher than the minimum roll needed to threaten a critical hit. Additionally, the boar's tusks are treated as adamantine for the purposes of penetrating damage reduction and hardness." - you use additionally twice here. Replace the second one with 'finally' or 'lastly'? Done.
Unstoppable:
"However, if the boar's hitpoints go below the point where it normally would have died it cannot be healed back above that point by normal magic." - This may be unnecessary. Just let them be healed back up if they get below -10hp and the party has the means & the ability to heal them in time. Deleting it & the sentence that follows would make for cleaner text Okay.
"If it has the improved critical feat for its tusks or if they gain the keen property from some other source increase their critical threat range by one, these bonuses do not stack and are not multiplied by the keen property." - maybe add 'instead' in there somewhere? Okay.
"its critical multiplier is halved when it does so.(round up, apply after sharp tusks)" - The bracketed bit should be a sentence of its own. Okay.
"Reflexive Gore: At ninth level the razor boar's reflexes quicken, allowing it to gore its foes as it runs. When a foe fails their reflex save or misses their attack of opportunity against the trampling boar they provoke an attack of opportunity from the boar. A foe who intentionally fails their save does not provoke this attack." - if you intend for this to be a buff to Trample, it should be clearer. I'll see what I can do.
{table=head]Category|Score
Originality|4.5 (It's good.)
Playability|4 (Some text -Wrench, Barrel Through included- is overlong or complicated considering what it does. Otherwise looks enjoyable to play and it does what it needs to)
Power|4.5 (No complaints.)
Elegance| 3 ('.5HD', some grammar issues, some text feels unnecessary.)
Flavor|3.5 (It works, it fits, but a part of me is disappointed that it didn't emphasize crits or the whole 'hunt you down and murder you' flavor more. Sure, you get lots of effective crits, but the active abilities stress other stuff.)
Overall|19.5, average 3.9[/table]



Cloaker: Ehhhhhh.... looks okay by my book! First monster on the list then. Huzzah.

Razor Boar:
Surge of Force: I'd cut down the uses. Maybe just limit it to HD. Taking Hyudras advice to give it a few extra low level uses. See above.
Also, a level 1 warrior has more options than a level 1 razor boar. Might be best to make it wait 'till later for surge of force and give it a more active ability at 1st level. A first level warrior has the choice of what weapon to use. Other than that everything a warrior chooses can also be chosen by the razor boar, along with surge of force.
Switching it with the temporary HP option would be cool, as that one's pretty active in a way- less of a no brainer, I mean. A little, I suppose. But how often does a single hp really cause a big difference to a battle? Even at first level?
Trample: Eh. 1/2 HD looks better for the DC. Also, generally abilities dependent on size like trample are better after large size is gained. Though I suppose that ability is especially apt on the razor boar. Take it as you will. It can still run over goblins and the like. Not totally useless when gained, just not show-stoppingly useful either.
Scent: might want to make special note of the extra ability on scent. Generally when you're just restating something found in the SR that a vet might already know they'll just ignore it and thus miss the extra stuff you put on the bottom. Yeah, but I can't exactly put it first and any other means I have of making it stand out look unprofessional. What would you suggest?
Resilience: Goddamn.:smalleek: Is this a good thing? is it too much? This is supposed to be a really tough beastie.
"if the boar is willing. Against natural weapons"
Line break in the middle there would be good for formatting purposes. Okay.
Also, if I were, say, a lizardfolk snagged onto the razor boar with my offhand claw, I'd totally just stay there, climb on its back Shadow of the Colossus style, then draw a sword and start stabbifying it. Just sayin'. Note how I handled stuck creatures with my Saguaro Sentinel. At no point during a battle is the boar not engaged in rapid violent and unpredictable motion. The damage taken on a failed escape is dealt primarily by the boar's hide smacking into the rider's face and the most that most creatures can hope for is pulling themselves free or going along with the motion enough to not get hurt(represented by not making an escape attempt.) And the few creatures which would actually be capable of riding the boar probably have other ways of getting on its back.
Looking at barrel through, I'd increase base tusk damage. With what you've currently got, you're looking at 2d6 base damage at large size. Either make it 1.5x str damage (totally applicable) or increase the damage to at least 1d8, if not 1d10. Hell, 1d12 or 2d6 would work if you move the hoof attacks to a later level. I will do the first.
Unstoppable: What kind of action is this? What conditions wouldn't allow you to activate this effect? Simple nausea/dazing? Stunning? Paralysis? Fear? Nothing short of mental shutdown? etc. It is a non-action and can be taken at pretty much any time. Death or some similar effect (permanent petrification) can stop it but that's about it.
Mighty force: you could totally swing that at an earlier level if you want trample to be a big schtick. Probably, but there's really nowhere to put it without displacing something else.
Otherwise... eh, looks okay.
Working on Finished edits.

Razor Boar
February 26
Modified wording on language.
Changed surge of force uses per day to HD or str.
Upped damage of tusks.
Changed .5s to ½s.
Added the word 'modifier' to a bunch of places.
Changed second 'Additionally' in sharp tusks to 'Finally.'
Removed cannot be healed back to life clause from unstoppable.
Slight rewording to Razor Tusks, Crazy Sharp and reflexive gore.

ScionoftheVoid
2011-02-26, 10:20 PM
For the Verdant Prince I have found two pictures, not sure which to use.

There's this one (http://fc06.deviantart.net/fs44/i/2009/091/3/e/Forest_Sprite_by_DarccWrath.jpg) or this one (http://fc05.deviantart.net/fs49/f/2009/195/7/7/77232eaaef4508b096019bc21e11dc37.jpg) and I can't decide which to go for.

If people have other appropriate pics available, please, feel free to suggest them.

dsmiles
2011-02-26, 10:24 PM
@Hyudra, Kyuubi, and Frog DRAGON (see, I got it right this time):

I'm having an interesting thought on the Psurlon. What would you think if I turned it into a straight-up manifester class, specializing in telekinetics?
Power point progression, power list, the works. I see the Psurlon not as a psi-gish or psionic beatstick, but more as a truly psionic aberration. (for the record, I was unaware that you guys and/or gals weren't trying to emulate the actual monsters from the books. :smallredface:)

ScionoftheVoid
2011-02-26, 10:28 PM
(for the record, I was unaware that you guys and/or gals weren't trying to emulate the actual monsters from the books. :smallredface:)

We did do that when Oslecamo ran the thread. The class was essentially a vessel for the monster. If the monster didn't sell itself then no one would have a reason to play it. Now, however, we try to make classes people would want to play, regardless of how cool (or lacking) the base creature is. Hyudra's (excellent) work in particular emphasises this.

NineThePuma
2011-02-26, 10:29 PM
I personally feel that the Dragons should emulate the monster more closely. But that's just me.

Saidoro
2011-02-26, 10:46 PM
@Scion of the Void
Definitely the second picture.

@dsmiles
This would be tricky. The main problem is that it has to progress after it's done, and for that it has to have a class to advance in. And for something like psionics we really don't have much ability to mess with the basic chassis of the power points and powers known without either overcomplicating things, drastically undercharging for powers a few levels down the line or both. Basically you'd have to give it abilities more or less on the same scale as the psion's 2 feats over 5 levels or the wilder's absolutely horrible class features in order to not create a class strictly better than either of them. And that's... rather limiting. I'm not saying that it would be impossible, but it would be much harder to do well than your current setup.

Hyudra
2011-02-26, 10:54 PM
For the Verdant Prince I have found two pictures, not sure which to use.

There's this one (http://fc06.deviantart.net/fs44/i/2009/091/3/e/Forest_Sprite_by_DarccWrath.jpg) or this one (http://fc05.deviantart.net/fs49/f/2009/195/7/7/77232eaaef4508b096019bc21e11dc37.jpg) and I can't decide which to go for.

If people have other appropriate pics available, please, feel free to suggest them.

Really not a fan of either picture there. They don't fit the description of the monster in the book, particularly, and the quality is kind of low.

Edit: As I look at it, the second picture does have antlers. Kind of. Still lacking in the hair of leaves bit. I might suggest using the artwork from the master of the hunt, but that creature's been called, so you might step on toes.


We did do that when Oslecamo ran the thread. The class was essentially a vessel for the monster. If the monster didn't sell itself then no one would have a reason to play it. Now, however, we try to make classes people would want to play, regardless of how cool (or lacking) the base creature is. Hyudra's (excellent) work in particular emphasises this.

Thank you.

And yes, in a way, we're sort of trying to clean up a lot of mistakes that were made early on. Monsters in the early days were sort of boring and had a lot of effective dead levels. There was also a trend where an awesome monster was made more powerful than other monsters of an equivalent level (so dragons, ethergaunts & tarrasque were given lots of love and rather problematic boosts in power, even at lower levels).

In the end, the goal is to make the monster into a class. This is an important distinction to make, because the monsters are inevitably designed to be as easy for a DM to use as possible, and that means shortcuts and having a few effective tricks on hand. This doesn't translate well to being used by a player.


@Hyudra, Kyuubi, and Frog DRAGON (see, I got it right this time):

I'm having an interesting thought on the Psurlon. What would you think if I turned it into a straight-up manifester class, specializing in telekinetics?
Power point progression, power list, the works. I see the Psurlon not as a psi-gish or psionic beatstick, but more as a truly psionic aberration.

On the Psurlon, can't say until I take the time to find it and check out the flavor. If it's in keeping with the fluff, then it might be an interesting direction. Sadly, psionics really aren't my field of expertise. I've barely played with them in actual games, so it's hard for me to be an authoritative voice there.

Edit: I like what Saidoro said though. Seems like sensible reasoning/troubleshooting.


(for the record, I was unaware that you guys and/or gals weren't trying to emulate the actual monsters from the books. )

Don't get us wrong - it's important to keep true to the flavor and feel of the monster, as well as the methodology. An ogre should keep the flavor of an ogre, but it should also play like a brute force class.

But no, the raw stats themselves, as well as the abilities (when deemed problematic) are indeed mutable in the translation to a class.

Lizard Lord
2011-02-26, 11:08 PM
In case it was missed, I did make the suggested changes to the Hooded Pupil (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10449208&postcount=711).

Hyudra
2011-02-26, 11:11 PM
In case it was missed, I did make the suggested changes to the Hooded Pupil.

It was not missed. Also, please don't repeatedly quote your entire monster, especially not with the pic included in the quote, as it tends to distract from the actual monster entries (including yours). Link back, sure, but quoting makes for a lot of clutter.

Critiques take time, and there's many to be done, so please be patient.

Scio
2011-02-26, 11:17 PM
Alright, I changed Ettercap again. Tell me if I missed anything. Btw I really hope someone finishes Animated Object soon. I want to play a Salad Fork Barbarian.

Lizard Lord
2011-02-26, 11:17 PM
It was not missed. Also, please don't repeatedly quote your entire monster, especially not with the pic included in the quote, as it tends to distract from the actual monster entries (including yours). Link back, sure, but quoting makes for a lot of clutter.

Critiques take time, and there's many to be done, so please be patient.

Sorry for being impatient and causing clutter. Though, for future reference, how do I link figure out the link for a direct post?

NineThePuma
2011-02-26, 11:20 PM
Hmm... Looking over the Hooded Pupil, it could use some work. Drink Blood looks useless. Clutch of Orcus is a spell? What's the source?

Hyudra
2011-02-26, 11:23 PM
See the number in the top right of the post? That's one way (it'll take you to a page containing only that post). Copy the http that you've got there.

Alternately, hit the edit button on the post, then, at the top where it says:

Giant in the Playground Forums > Gaming > Homebrew Design (d20 and RPG) > Community Based Monster Classes VI

Right click the 'community based monster classes VI' on that edit page, copy link location. (Or click it and then copy from the address bar). That gives you a link that'll take the viewer to the appropriate page, scrolled down to the wanted post.

Lizard Lord
2011-02-26, 11:28 PM
Huh, somehow I never knew that those numbers were links.


Hmm... Looking over the Hooded Pupil, it could use some work. Drink Blood looks useless. Clutch of Orcus is a spell? What's the source?

Sorry, Clutch of Orcus is from Libris Mortis. I've updated it to show that. Any idea how I could fix drink blood?

Hyudra
2011-02-26, 11:32 PM
Sorry, Clutch of Orcus is from Libris Mortis. I've updated it to show that. Any idea how I could fix drink blood?

It's problematic when a monster refers to material outside of the SRD. If you absolutely must do such, which you should avoid wherever possible, because you don't want to copy the text exactly - that's breaking copyright rules) and you don't want to exclude players who don't have the book (that's mean), then try to include an alternative with SRD or homebrewed material.

Lizard Lord
2011-02-26, 11:38 PM
Hmmm, this is starting to seem more and more out of my league (though I'm sure some other homebrewer could probably do it easily).

Anyways, I'll try and think of a way to fix Clutch of Orcus.

NineThePuma
2011-02-26, 11:53 PM
Well, figure out what the spell does, then do something similar :P

Lizard Lord
2011-02-27, 12:04 AM
Updated Hooded Pupil. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10449208&postcount=711)

I've updated the Clutch of Orcus ability. Upon thinking about it, it didn't look that strong to me so I had it add HD to the damage it deals. If anyone thinks this made it overpowered I'll go back and change that.

I have had two ideas on how to fix Drink Blood. One is to allow characters with bite attacks to use Drink Blood on unwounded people. But then only races with bite attacks might become Hooded Pupils, and I don't want that. Another thing was to add a +2 temporary constitution bonus each time the Hooded Pupil uses Drink Blood.

NineThePuma
2011-02-27, 12:09 AM
Clutch of Orcus: Starting at 1st level the Hooded Pupil gains the ability to use magical force to squeeze a victims heart and simulate a heart attack 1/day per 2 HD. This ability deals 1d3+HD in damage for each full round the Hooded Pupil spends concentrating. If the wooded pupil ceases concentrating, the effect ends. The Hooded pupil may use this ability 1/day per 2 HD. Bold is typo, underline is redundancy.

Does this merely deal straight damage? How do you judge concentration?

Benly
2011-02-27, 12:12 AM
It's problematic when a monster refers to material outside of the SRD. If you absolutely must do such, which you should avoid wherever possible, because you don't want to copy the text exactly - that's breaking copyright rules) and you don't want to exclude players who don't have the book (that's mean), then try to include an alternative with SRD or homebrewed material.

Given that the original creature is also from Libris Mortis, it seems odd to exclude LM material for it - would anyone who doesn't have access to the book know the creature well enough to want to play it?

Hyudra
2011-02-27, 12:15 AM
Given that the original creature is also from Libris Mortis, it seems odd to exclude LM material for it - would anyone who doesn't have access to the book know the creature well enough to want to play it?

Yes. Ideally, monster classes are done well enough that people will sometimes read the class and want to check out the monster, rather than always the other way around.

Lizard Lord
2011-02-27, 12:18 AM
Fixed the typos and I think I cleared up what concentration means.

NineThePuma
2011-02-27, 12:20 AM
I would suggest also removing the redundancy.

Perhaps 1d3 damage per two hit dice instead of a flat +HD boost?

I would give it a con boost from Drink Blood, but that might mix poorly. I'm not so well versed in balance as to know.

Frog Dragon
2011-02-27, 03:43 AM
Wondering what prompted that rant. I appreciate hearing it - I do like discussion on balance & methodology, because it helps us hammer stuff out, but I just wonder where it came from. My keyboard. :smalltongue:

Really though, I had stuff to say about draconic balance, so I said it. That was the result.

You make excellent points about the dragons though, and they do indeed do also gain many spells the bards don't. They don't have the raw casting power or a sorcerer, or the close combat potential of the warblade (assuming you delay the natural attacks a bit), but they have most of both. It's the druid problem all over again. Master of all, and such, without a meaningful weak point, especially since they eventually get pretty loopy fly speeds.

I do have to ask, how do you think they should be done? How much casting? Should we even base each dragon on the same general template, or vary them from d8-d12, medium BAB to full?

NineThePuma
2011-02-27, 03:50 AM
I would (and this is just me) make them more closely resemble actual aging of dragons. IE, at CR X they resemble a wyrmling, and then at CR Y, they resemble the next up, and so on. It might help break down the monster into a less massive form.

I recommend integrating fluff and stuff too.

Mystic Muse
2011-02-27, 04:32 AM
*Some good points*

If Gorgon isn't opposed to it, I'd be willing to try and implement a few changes you would suggest onto the Silver dragon revision I'm doing. I'd like them to be majestic as well.

DiBastet
2011-02-27, 06:17 AM
My keyboard. :smalltongue:

Really though, I had stuff to say about draconic balance, so I said it. That was the result.

You make excellent points about the dragons though, and they do indeed do also gain many spells the bards don't. They don't have the raw casting power or a sorcerer, or the close combat potential of the warblade (assuming you delay the natural attacks a bit), but they have most of both. It's the druid problem all over again. Master of all, and such, without a meaningful weak point, especially since they eventually get pretty loopy fly speeds.

I do have to ask, how do you think they should be done? How much casting? Should we even base each dragon on the same general template, or vary them from d8-d12, medium BAB to full?

I was thinking, wouldn't it be easier, and a lot more magestic, to make xovia.... [email protected]#$% it! "Great Game" (MMV) dragons instead of spellcaster ones? Kinda easier do balance and a little more majestic.

Frog Dragon
2011-02-27, 06:23 AM
I was thinking, wouldn't it be easier, and a lot more magestic, to make xovia.... [email protected]#$% it! "Great Game" (MMV) dragons instead of spellcaster ones? Kinda easier do balance and a little more majestic.
Completely forgot about the Xorvintaal Dragons (:smalltongue:). I had the thought of branching dragon classes after Wyrmling. For example, Dragon Mage and War Dragon for each dragon, the first one being more of a caster with less physical potential, while the second might not have caster progression at all. Maybe drop Xorvintaals in too. Don't know if this would be too much work though.

Mystic Muse
2011-02-27, 06:26 AM
I was thinking, wouldn't it be easier, and a lot more magestic, to make xovia.... [email protected]#$% it! "Great Game" (MMV) dragons instead of spellcaster ones? Kinda easier do balance and a little more majestic.

Xorvintaal dragons are also involved in "The great game" Which is something PCs may not want to do. I'll leave it up to Hyudra and Gorgon to decide, but I'd rather that be an option spellcasting dragons can take than it being forced upon them.

Frog Dragon
2011-02-27, 06:29 AM
A really crazy idea, similar to the one in my last post. Make the actual dragon classes only a few levels long, and then have the defining abilities come later anyway, regardless of what levels you take (kinda like what I (and probably half the brewers here) do with my SLA:s, upgrading and granting the most powerful SLA:s after the player is no longer taking monster levels). Not sure how well this would work, and if it would stack too many powers on the later levels due to a combination of class powers and draconic powers, since you'd of course need quite a few reinforcements for the draconic flavor.

NineThePuma
2011-02-27, 06:58 AM
What about 'wyrmling' classes and then PrCs for every age category? They helpfully fit into specific monsters, and yet have a lot of space for taking classes beyond that.

Frog Dragon
2011-02-27, 07:02 AM
That's another possible variation. The problem is, age categories go up every one or two CR:s in many dragons, so we'd probably have to merge at least a few age categories.

DiBastet
2011-02-27, 07:02 AM
BTW, a long time ago I was really offended by many different dragons and tables for those dragons, and I made a generic table for dragons. The idea is that if I wanted a dragon of CR X I would just use as many levels as I wanted +2 HD, and it always worked very fine. Also, I used this table to adress dragon player characters, they would just get as many levels of Dragon Template as they wanted their dragon to have, and would gain the racial abilities of the kind of dragon on a separate table.

I included the mechanic of size increase on it, and with it the levels they would be considered of a higher age (so we would know when they would gain their abilities). Maybe this could help someone.

It's a monter template, not a class template, but I use Pathfinder's CR = ECL rule (but I also enforce CR = HD, so any exra HD are cut off), so it was meant for players to use it too. Maybe with some work people could base it to make a template for dragons, including generic ability scores, that could be based by age category and all.

{table=head]Level|
Size|
Age|Str|Dex|Con|Int|Wis|Cha|Nat. Armor|Weapons|Breath (Line / Cone)

1st|Medium|Wyrmling|+2|+6|+0|+0|+0|+0|+1|Bite|
30 ft / 60 ft

2nd|Medium|Wyrmling|+4|+6|+2|+0|+0|+0|+3|2 claws|

3rd|Medium|Wyrmling|+4|+6|+2|+0|+0|+0|+4| |

4th|Large|Very Young|+6|+4|+4|+2|+2|+2|+6|2 wings|
40 ft / 80 ft

5th|Large|Very Young|+6|+6|+0|+0|+0|+0|+7||

6th|Large|Young|+8|+4|+4|+2|+2|+2|+9|Tail|

7th|Large|Young|+8|+6|+0|+0|+0|+0|+10| |

8th|Huge|Teen|+10|+2|+6|+4|+4|+4|+12|Crush|
50 ft / 100 ft

9th|Huge|Teen|+10|+6|+0|+0|+0|+0|+13| |

10th|Huge|Young Adult|+12|+2|+6|+4|+4|+4|+15| |

11th|Huge|Young Adult|+12|+6|+0|+0|+0|+0|+16| |

12th|Gargantuan|Adult|+14|+0|+8|+6|+6|+6|+18|Sweep |
60 ft / 120 ft

13th|Gargantuan|Adult|+14|+6|+0|+0|+0|+0|+19| |

14th|Gargantuan|Mature|+16|+0|+8|+6|+6|+6|+21| |

15th|Gargantuan|Mature|+16|+6|+0|+0|+0|+0|+22| |

16th|Gargantuan|Old|+18|+0|+8|+6|+6|+6|+24| |

17th|Gargantuan|Old|+18|+6|+0|+0|+0|+0|+25| |

18th|Colossal|Very Old|+20|-2|+10|+8|+8|+8|+27| |
70 ft /140 ft

19th|Colossal|Very Old|+20|+6|+0|+0|+0|+0|+28| |

20th|Colossal|Ancient|+22|-2|+10|+8|+8|+8|+30| |

[/table]


Then people could make separate classes for wyrmling and beyond, or maybe they could make a basic "phisical dragon" class, with different paths to choose from (spellcasting, arcane, brute, etc).


Xorvintaal dragons are also involved in "The great game" Which is something PCs may not want to do. I'll leave it up to Hyudra and Gorgon to decide, but I'd rather that be an option spellcasting dragons can take than it being forced upon them.

Oh PLEASE! It was meant as an idea to give abilities instead of spellcasting. Just ignore the fluff. We ignore HD, abilities, even the ones monsters already have? Why in the Nine wouldn't we ignore the fluff of this to give dragons the option of being more Dragons and less spellcaster?

NineThePuma
2011-02-27, 07:03 AM
[..] Why in the Nine [..]

What are you doing inside me, and why haven't I noticed you yet?

Frog Dragon
2011-02-27, 07:04 AM
Then people could make separate classes for wyrmling and beyond, or maybe they could make a basic "phisical dragon" class, with different paths to choose from (spellcasting, arcane, brute, etc).
That's actually pretty much what I suggested last page. It might work, it would just require over 30 levels of class for nonepic dragons, so it would be quite a lot of work, even if you could give a lot of the abilities in both classes.

Mystic Muse
2011-02-27, 07:09 AM
Oh PLEASE! It was meant as an idea to give abilities instead of spellcasting. Just ignore the fluff. We ignore HD, abilities, even the ones monsters already have? Why in the Nine wouldn't we ignore the fluff of this to give dragons the option of being more Dragons and less spellcaster?

The concept of what makes a "Dragon" varies a LOT. In addition, we ignore the crunch to make the monsters more balanced. We don't Ignore the fluff because that is what the creatures are based upon.

Rather than link to TVtropes I'm just going to quote them.


This trope deals with big (maybe) strong (possibly) scaly (sometimes) flying (perhaps) fire-breathing (at times) reptilian (usually) monsters (traditionally).

Nearly every culture has myths about something someone is willing to call a 'dragon', despite the fact none of them can agree on what exactly dragons are. How big are they? What do they look like? How many heads do they have? Do they breathe fire? Do some of them breathe ice? Do they fly (and if so, with or without wings)? How many legs do they have? Are they dumb as planks, or superintelligent? Are they low scaly pests, or ultra-rare Uber-serpents ancient and powerful as the Earth itself? Most importantly, do they think we taste good with ketchup?!?

There are so many different things that fall under the definition of "Dragon" that the word is easily as nebulous as "Sandwich." Giving them Xorvintaal abilities does not make them any more or less dragon, and while we can ignore the fluff, it really should be an option.

DiBastet
2011-02-27, 07:10 AM
Or at the very least it could me made into a template. Maybe even three templates (the basic plus an arcane and a brute option).

Then it would be easy to just add, or to subtract, bonuses, slas, racial things, etc.

Mystic Muse
2011-02-27, 07:11 AM
Or at the very least it could me made into a template. Maybe even three templates (the basic plus an arcane and a brute option).

Then it would be easy to just add, or to subtract, bonuses, slas, racial things, etc.

The only problem is, then we'd have to do this for EVERY dragon, which is going to make them even harder to make than a level 20 class already is.

DiBastet
2011-02-27, 07:16 AM
The concept of what makes a "Dragon" varies a LOT. (...) Giving them Xorvintaal abilities does not make them any more or less dragon



"(...)it makes dragons act more like dragons and less like mighty sorcerers who happen to be dragons."

I was just quoting what the very designers said. But I won't discuss the perception of what a dragon is or isn't, or even semantics, with you, so i won't reply anything more about "perceptions of what a dragon is". For god's sake, I have better things to do than this.

Like helping make a template, for example.

DiBastet
2011-02-27, 07:19 AM
The only problem is, then we'd have to do this for EVERY dragon, which is going to make them even harder to make than a level 20 class already is.

Why in the Nine again? We could make a template for the generic dragon. A template. Then people would want to make a white dragon. "Ohhh, there's a template. But then, whites should be less smart, let's reduce Int. Oh, and reduce size too. Good. Now add abilities to make up for it..."

Granted, there are dragons that are more powerful than others. There are some that begin at CR X and others at CR X-y, but for sanity's sake we could just ignore this and make a generic template for dragons to give them a single power level.

Then for the specific races we would just add or subtract from the generic template.

Mystic Muse
2011-02-27, 07:26 AM
Why in the Nine again? We could make a template for the generic dragon. A template. Then people would want to make a white dragon. "Ohhh, there's a template. But then, whites should be less smart, let's reduce Int. Oh, and reduce size too. Good. Now add abilities to make up for it..." Because the template shouldn't be "Generic." It doesn't add anything to make something less unique, and unless you're going to also have a thing of what is worth what in exchange, then a lot of DMs will completely ignore the template because they already have enough to deal with.

You also mentioned that it would be easy to add ability boosts, SLAs, ETC. No it wouldn't. SLAS and ability boosts are specific to each monster. It would have to be changed for each and every dragon.

This is a lot of work for, what seems to me, very little benefit.

Unless I'm just completely misunderstanding you, which is entirely possible since it's pretty early.

DiBastet
2011-02-27, 07:42 AM
Unless I'm just completely misunderstanding you, which is entirely possible since it's pretty early.

After being angry at you because you were seeming like a douche, in the middle of your message I was thinking "Oh gods! No, it's thinking about the opposite!" then you added that possibility, and now I'm at peace with you again, darth kyubi.

Allow me to explain. Instead of leaving every homebrewer to make his own dragon from the scratch, we make the skeleton for a dragon. The chassis if you will. Something like a "monster hd" with statistics. BAB, HD, size increases, generic attributes, natural weapons, breath damage, flight, plus with a place on the table noting the level a dragon would become of another age category.

It could even be divided into a "spellcaster dragon template" and a "brute dragon template", or better, the same class have different "paths" (in one path you get bardish casting, in the other you get xorvifinaldoom-like abilities (phisical ones, like the planar dragons get)). It's not enough for a monster class, it's weak and it's BLAND. Then we post it. Over. End. Finito.

Now, when I want to make a fang dragon, I don't need to do this whole thing from scratch. I can tuck my desired abilities by the fluff into this template, and if I don't like something in the template I just remove it. I won't post just the additions to the template in the forums, I'll merge them with the template and post it as any other monster.

It would be a guide to creating dragons, with the worse of the balance (the chassis, and I believe many agree with me that it's the worst problem of the dragon) already hammered out.

So, I want to make a tome dragon? I take the arcana template, like it. I reduce the HD, because they are frail, reduce the BAB, then I add what I believe is necessary. The I state "Unlike most dragons, Tome Dragons can't choose the Brute path" or something along these lines.

Want to make a white dragon. I reduce the Int of the basic template, make the additions, merge my additions with the template and post it. Ta-da, a new dragon, with the fluff and abilities that I want, without the need to figure out hd, size increases, things.

It would be a tool for the homebrewers of this thread.

Hope I was clearer, dark master.

Mystic Muse
2011-02-27, 07:52 AM
You're a lot clearer now, but I think you should get Gorgon and Hyudra's approval before doing this. I'm still not completely clear on what you're saying, and this seems like something the other two members of the Triumvirate should vote on.

Also, you don't have to refer to me as Darth Kyuubi. It actually doesn't make sense to since I'm a Lawful good silver dragon Paladin.

No I'm not delusional, what gave you that idea?:smalltongue:

Sorry if I came across as a jerk. I don't mean to. I really wish we didn't have to communicate through text as its a terrible medium for expressing tones in.

EDIT: I was also just trying to make sure you didn't waste your time with something that could be shot down anyway.

Gorgon, I promise I'll review the Saguaro later if I get the chance.

DiBastet
2011-02-27, 08:02 AM
You're a lot clearer now, but I think you should get Gorgon and Hyudra's approval before doing this.

I don't intend to do this. I'll just help Frog Dragon do it if he wants to do it.

Plus, the Darth thing it's just 'cause it's fun.


Fun Note: Just noticed that contrary to many people that I know you can gauge how angry I am by the lack of funny and smart-ass comments. When I was angry with you I was serious, matter-of-fact-like. Now I'm being a smartass...

Frog Dragon
2011-02-27, 08:11 AM
I won't be getting started on anything big anytime soon, like a dragon revision. I'm still the official yugoloth crafter here*, so I'd like to get the yugoloths done before I do anything other than single monsters.
*May or may not actually be official.

DiBastet
2011-02-27, 08:13 AM
I really must be very bad at expressing myself today...

It was something like "I'll leave the responsability to do this to another person. Here Frog Dragon, all yours *run away*"...

It's early...it's early... :smallsigh:

The-Mage-King
2011-02-27, 09:34 AM
Hey, I have a request for you guys. Could you make an Unbodied monster class fairly soon?

Hyudra
2011-02-27, 10:29 AM
...

Well, in light of the recent Dragon discussion, I might as well reveal what the 'Secret Project XRD' is, that I've been working on, on & off, for a few weeks:
Dragon, Red Xorvintaal
Pic Omitted
Variant Monster Class / Template Augmented Monster Class
Monster Manual V

Class
HD: D8

{table=head]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will |Special
1st|+0|+2|+0|+2| Red Dragon Body, Firebreath, Red Xorvintaal I, Attribute Bonus
2nd|+1|+3|+0|+3| Heated Exhalation, Dragon's Claw, Attribute Bonus
3rd|+2|+3|+1|+3| Deafening Roar, Red Dragon's Gaze, Attribute Bonus
4th|+3|+4|+1|+4| Flame Dragon's Mien, Red Dragon's Scale, Attribute Bonus
5th|+3|+4|+1|+4| Scorching Exhalation, Red Xorvintaal II, Attribute Bonus
6th|+4|+5|+2|+5| Growth, Dragon Wing, Attribute Bonus
7th|+5|+5|+2|+5| Red Dragon's Mien, Dracomancy, Attribute Bonus
8th|+6|+6|+2|+6| Blazing Exhalation, Inner Furnace, Attribute Bonus
9th|+6|+6|+3|+6| Wyrm's Wisdom, Dragonfire, Attribute Bonus
10th|+7|+7|+3|+7| Crimson Dragon's Mien, Red Xorvintaal III, Attribute Bonus
11th|+8|+7|+3|+7| Conflagration Exhalation, Attribute Bonus
12th|+9|+8|+4|+8| Growth, Dragon's Tail, Attribute Bonus
13th|+9|+8|+4|+8| Ruby Dragon's Mien, Attribute Bonus
14th|+10|+9|+4|+9| Immolating Exhalation, Greater Dracomancy, Attribute Bonus
15th|+11|+9|+5|+9| Red Xorvintaal IV, Attribute Bonus
16th|+12|+10|+5|+10| Carnelian Dragon's Mien, Wyrmfire, Attribute Bonus
17th|+12|+10|+5|+10| Incinerating Exhalation,
18th|+13|+11|+6|+11| Growth, Crush, Attribute Bonus
19th|+14|+11|+6|+11| Cardinal Dragon's Mien, Progenitor of Flame, Attribute Bonus
20th|+15|+12|+6|+12| Exhalation of Holocausts, Red Xorvintaal V, Attribute Bonus
[/table]
Skill Points 4+Int per level
Class Skills: Appraise, Bluff, Diplomacy, Escape Artist, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge (any), Listen, Search, Sense Motive, Spot, Use Magic Device.

Proficiencies: The Xorvintaal Red Dragon is proficient only with its own natural attacks.

Red Dragon Body: The Xorvintaal Red Dragon (hereafter referred to as the Red Dragon) loses all other racial bonuses, and acquires Dragon traits, giving it Darkvision 60', low light vision and immunity to magical sleep and paralysis effects. Red Dragons are initially medium sized creatures with 40' land movement and a 1d8+Str damage Bite. The Red Dragon has wings, but isn't initially able to fly. Red Dragons are immune to fire, but take 150% of the damage from cold. Red Dragons have natural armor equal to 1 + their Con modifier.

Red Dragons initially speak Common and Draconic, and may speak an additional language as appropriate to their intelligence mod, as normal.

Attribute Bonus: With each level in the class, the Red Dragon may assign +1 to two different attributes of her choice. For example, one could assign +1 to Str and +1 to Con at first level, but not +2 to Str. A Red Dragon may not pick the same combination of attributes to improve that she did with the last level she took in Xorvintaal Red Dragon. ie. A Red Dragon who picks +1 to Str and +1 to Con at 1st level could not pick both Str and Con at 2nd, but she could again at 3rd.

Firebreath: The Red Dragon, starting at first level, may unleash a breath weapon in a cone extending 30', plus 5' for every HD the Dragon has after the first. Those within the cone take 1d6 fire damage per HD of the dragon, though they may make a Reflex save (DC 10 + ½ Dragon's HD + Dragon's Con) for half damage.

Red Xorvintaal I: This Red Dragon is different from others of his kind, as she has sacrificed her spellcasting in exchange for the tools she needs to leverage ever greater wealth and power from those around her. Pick one option from the Draconic Superiority list, and one option from the Draconic Schemes list:
Draconic Superiority:
Vulnerability to cold is reduced by 25% (typically to 125%).
Any [Metabreath] Feat.
Any Fighter Bonus Feat.
Two of the following feats (even if you do not qualify) with the associated benefit, if any:
Alertness
Athletic, and add climb to your list of class skills.
Diligent, and add Decipher Script to your list of class skills.
Investigator, and add Gather Information to your list of class skills.
Magical Aptitude, and add Spellcraft to your list of class skills.
Negotiator
Persuasive
+2 to all knowledge skills.

Draconic Schemes:
Lesser Exarch - The Red Dragon already has a Lesser Exarch. This is a loyal follower who follows the Dragon's orders to the letter. The Exarch maintains any combination of levels in NPC classes equal to the Red Dragon's HD. Drawing power and status from being a far-flung extension of the Red Dragon's will, the Exarch may not adventure with the dragon or fight directly on the dragon's behalf. Many Dragons do not see their Exarchs for months or years at a time, and only then for brief meetings before they part ways again.
Ways the Red Dragon could wield her Exarch include conducting business, overseeing a project, gathering information, gathering wealth, making contacts, disposing of enemies and carrying out quests.

.
Lesser Enterprise - The Red Dragon gains bonus wealth, equal to 20% of the total value of the Dragon's current possessions and wealth, or 20% of the Dragon's designated Wealth by Level (WBL) table, using the Dragon's HD to determine the appropriate level (ie. A 3HD dragon would gain additional wealth equal to 20% of the money available to a third level adventurer). This wealth may only be used to acquire property, invest in business, make contacts, acquire purely cosmetic items or add legitimacy to an assumed role. Using this wealth to buy magic items for the purposes of adventuring or combat would be disallowed, for example, but the dragon could use the wealth to adorn her lair with rich tapestries or to bribe a few of the right people as part the Dragon's bid to become leader of a thieves guild.

.
Lesser Persona - The Red Dragon has, through innate magics and propaganda, created an alter ego. The Red Dragon gains the Alternate Form (Persona) ability, usable as a supernatural, standard action, once per day per HD. This ability lets the Red Dragon assume the identity of a particular humanoid (with a set physical description and race). However, the Red Dragon retains all of its ability scores and gains none of the traits of the assumed race. Dragons have a natural magnetism to them, and a Dragon interacting with individuals who share race, ideology and/or status with the assumed persona gets a +2 to all skill checks and ability checks involving social interactions outside of combat.
The created role is set, and a Dragon that uses Alternate Form to become a humanoid other than the set role forfeits all future uses for the day. If this new role is maintained for a week per HD of the dragon, it becomes the new set role and the older identity is forfeit.
The success of the Persona is dependent on the Dragon keeping her two identities separate, and use of the alternate form ability in the course of adventuring or party encounters (or, alternately, the use of dragon form or abilities in encounters fit for the Persona) will forfeit the benefits.

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Lesser Subservients - Dragons are creatures possessed of great personal magnetism, and the Red Dragon has drawn the attentions of lesser creatures who would bask in its glory, serve it, worship it or simply enjoy the security inherent to a Dragon's territory. The Dragon gains subservients with a collective CR totaling 1.5 times the dragon's HD, with no subservient having a CR greater than ½ the Dragon's HD. These subservients might include kobolds, human worshipers or barbarians. Unlike Exarchs, these followers cannot be commanded, but they can be loosely directed. On any given week, the subervients can be instructed to fortify their settlement, to move to a new location or expand the Dragon's territory. The accuracy in the performance of duties and their overall chances of success are generally lower than that offered by the Exarch (described above), but many Dragons nonetheless value subservients for the protection they can offer to a hoard or the degree to which they can drain a rival Dragon's resources. In the event that subservients die in battle and at least 33% of the followers remain active, one new follower joins every day, until their numbers are replenished. If there are less followers than this, they replenish at a rate of one per week, until they reach the 33% mark. Subservients fear the Dragon and will retreat rather than join alongside the Dragon in battle, and no subservient will remain in the Dragon's immediate company for more than an hour at a time.
Draconic Schemes hinge on long term bids for power and assertion of authority and the benefits of each are kept in check by restrictions. It is assumed that by violating the spirit of these restrictions, the Red Dragon has made a subtle error that will lead to the metaphorical house of cards crashing down, as the ramifications make themselves known. In plainer terms, violating these restrictions will forfeit any benefit granted by the scheme and (at the DM's discretion) by the violation itself. An Exarch who is called in to assist the party in a pivotal combat will either not arrive or will leave the Dragon's service at the soonest opportunity afterward. The bonus wealth from Enterprise will be relinquished, in the event of the Dragon using the wealth to directly support her adventuring, and the loss of this Scheme will likely lead to any properties or possessions being reclaimed to the best extent possible (or future gains of equal value being denied to the Dragon). Using a Persona to gain a combat advantage destroys the mystique of the character the Dragon has created for both the audience and for the Dragon herself, causing the form to be unusable for a duration as the Dragon recovers from her disturbed self image. Followers that are used as expendable troops when the Dragon is present and capable of fighting are liable to abandon the Dragon or even turn on her. Benefits are not lost if the Dragon does not initiate or cause the violation, such as in instances where the Dungeon Master involves an Exarch in the story by way of a plot hook.

In the event that the Draconic Schemes benefit is lost (either by violation of the terms of the scheme or by death/theft of the benefits themselves), the Dragon may wait a week per HD and then pay 5% of her current experience to set the Scheme in motion once more. This cost is halved (in time and experience cost) if the loss is due to death or theft, and not a violation on the part of the Dragon.

Heated Exhalation: The second level Red Dragon may employ a technique using its breath weapon. The Dragon extends the range on the breath by 50%, adds its Con modifier to the fire damage dealt, and increases the DC on the reflex save by +2. Using Heated Exhalation fatigues the Red Dragon. If the Red Dragon is already fatigued, it becomes exhausted. Exhausted Red Dragons cannot use Heated Exhalation.

Exhalations may only be used if the Red Dragon could use Firebreath, described above, and have the same base recharge time unless otherwise noted. Exhalations may be used in conjunction with Metabreath feats, but not with other Exhalations from the Xorvintaal Red Dragon class.

Dragon's Claw: A Red Dragon of second level or higher may now make use of two claw attacks as secondary natural weapons, with each dealing 1d6 + ½ Str mod damage.

Deafening Roar: The third level Red Dragon may let loose a terrible roar, leaving enemies reeling. The brunt of the roar is a cone extending 30' + 5' per HD, forcing enemies to make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + ½ Dragon's HD + Dragon's Con mod) or be deafened and shaken for a number of rounds equal to ½ the Red Dragon's HD. The use of the Roar is a standard action, and it imposes a 1 round delay before the Red Dragon may use its breath weapon, either denying the Red Dragon the opportunity to use the breath weapon on its next turn or extending the recharge time by 1 round, if it is currently recharging.

For one round after use, Deafening Roar extends the radius of the Red Dragon's Presence abilities (see the Mien abilities, below) by 50%, rounding down. This applies to both the ranges on the onset effect and the radius of the passive benefit. After that one round is past, the radius shrinks.

Red Dragon's Gaze: The Red Dragon, upon reaching third level, is far more aware of its surroundings than lesser beings. The Red Dragon now has vision extending four times as far as normal in shadowy illumination and twice as far in normal light. It effectively has Darkvision out to 120'.

The Red Dragon gains Blindsense out to 5' per HD, to a maximum of 60'.

Flame Dragon's Mien: Dragons are majestic creatures that can change the nature of the battle by their very presence, and the fourth level Red Dragon is no exception. The Red Dragon gains a Presence ability, which is activated as a swift action. Each Presence ability has an effect when activated, and a passive benefit that lasts until the Dragon uses a different Presence ability or combat ends. Pick one of the following Presence abilities:
Simmering Rage

Onset: The Red Dragon flaps its wings and growls. The wind stirred by the wings and the breath of the Dragon fuel nearby flames. As this Presence is initiated, any active fires on tiles within 15' are spread to adjacent tiles, and the duration for flames on burning tiles or ignited enemies within 15' is extended by one round.

Passive: Grants each of Red Dragon's allies within 15' (itself included) an Endure Elements effect. Allies within 15' of the Red Dragon (not including the Red Dragon) gain fire resistance equal to ½ the Red Dragon's HD for the duration.
Frightful Presence

Onset: The Dragon narrows its eyes and settles into a predatory stance, reflecting its nature as a creature at the very top of the food chain. These impressions penetrate the unconscious of the Dragon's enemies, leading them to have disconcerting and frightening impressions of being prey. As this Presence is activated, opponents within 15' must make a Will save (DC 10 + ½ Dragon's HD + Dragon's Cha) or be shaken for 1 round, as the Presence takes effect. Already shaken opponents are panicked instead.

Passive: Creatures with a CR lower than the Red Dragon's HD must pass a will save (DC 10 + ½ Dragon's HD + Dragon's Cha) to charge the Red Dragon, full attack it or target it with a spell. If they fail the save, they may carry through with the charge, full attack or spell, but are panicked as a consequence for 1d3 rounds afterward and shaken until the Dragon departs the battlefield. Shaken creatures suffer a -2 penalty on the will save.
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Draconic Arrogance

Onset: The Dragon, secure in its role as one of the (if not the) greatest creatures on the Prime Material, is able to shake off attempts to control it. The Dragon can attempt to remove a mind affecting spell or status condition on herself. This works as Dispel Magic, using the Dragon's HD instead of a caster level to make the roll. This Presence may be activated even if the Dragon is otherwise unable to take actions of its own volition (such as if it is Charmed), but if there is an attempt made to remove an effect and the attempt fails, the Presence fails as well, with no passive effect granted, and the Presence may not be activated again until the effect in question expires.

Passive: Allies within 15' of the Dragon (Dragon included) gain a +2 on Will saves.
Wyrm's Disdain

Onset: The Dragon is able to shrug off the spells of those not even worthy of her attention. As she activates Wyrm's Disdain, the Dragon may reroll a saving throw against a spell that she failed in a previous round, at a -4 penalty. Success means that any ongoing spell effects from that spell end. This may only be used once per spell.

Passive: Enemy spells targeting the Dragon or allies within 15' of the Dragon have their ranges halved or reduced to 30', whichever is most drastic. Divination spells are not affected.

Red Dragon's Scale: The Red Dragon is well protected against spell and sword alike. At fourth level, gains DR/- equal to 1/2 its HD and SR equal to 11 + her HD.

Scorching Exhalation: A fifth level Red Dragon may employ a new technique using its breath weapon. Scorching victims with a superheated column of flame, the Red Dragon leaves them vulnerable to further attack, leaving flesh tender and armor heated enough to be soft. Use of Scorching Exhalation is a full round action, otherwise operating just as a standard use of the breath weapon does. Scorched foes take 50% more damage from the next three (just one if they made the save against the breath weapon) attacks, abilities, spells or environmental effects that damage them. This 'scorched' effect otherwise lasts for 1d4 rounds (-2 if they made the save). Use of Scorching Exhalation doubles the recharge time for the Red Dragon's breath.

Red Xorvintaal II: The Red Dragon that reaches fifth level advances the breadth of both her capabilities and her plots. Pick a new Draconic Superiority ability from the list below:

Vulnerability to Cold is reduced by 50%. If the Red Dragon already has reduced vulnerability to Cold from Xorvintaal I, then these two vulnerability reductions instead combine for greater overall effect, making the Red Dragon take half cold damage, instead.
The Red Dragon rerolls 1s when dealing fire damage, provided all of the dice being rolled are a 1d6 or larger in size.
One of the Dragon's natural attacks has its base damage advanced as though the Dragon had grown one size category. This stacks with increases in size category.
The Dragon's scales are edged like blades. It is considered to have spiked armor, which increases in damage as the Dragon increases in size.
Any ability from the Xorvintaal I list the Red Dragon has not already taken.
And the Red Dragon may pick one of the upgrades from the following list that it meets the prerequisites for, and one Draconic Scheme from the Xorvintaal I list it does not yet have:
Greater Exarch: Requires Lesser Exarch. The Red Dragon's Exarch advances his abilities considerably. After a ritual in which the Exarch is marked with the Red Dragon's branding, the Exarch replaces half its levels, rounding down, with class levels suitable to replace or advance whatever NPC class levels it had. For example, an Exarch with 5 levels in adept would change to have 3 levels in adept and 2 levels in a spellcasting class such as Wizard or Sorcerer. In addition, the Red Dragon may use Scrying, as per the spell, once per week with the Exarch as the target. This only operates if the Exarch is at least one day's journey away from the Red Dragon. The pre-existing restrictions for the Exarch remain in effect.
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Greater Enterprise: Requires Lesser Enterprise. The Red Dragon's enterprise advances to give the Red Dragon a pool of bonus wealth equal to 33% of her total wealth or 33% of her Wealth by Level, using her HD to determine appropriate standing for the latter. Further, the Dragon comes into possession of a property with a gold piece value no greater than the Dragon's HD x 500. This property could include ruins, a house, a tower or small fort. Funds not spent in the acquisition of this property are forfeit. A Dragon may abandon or sell a property and wait a month to upgrade to a new one with a higher value, in the event that the Dragon gains more HD and thereby has the funds and qualification to acquire something better. Again, the pre-existing restrictions for the use of these funds still apply.
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Greater Persona: Requires Lesser Persona. The Dragon gains the ability to create an effigy from an old fang (one lost when the Dragon grew in a new set) or a scale from between the Dragon's eyes. The effigy becomes a clone of the Dragon's persona (see Lesser Persona, above) and is capable of small talk, handling items and performing errands or menial tasks. However, the effigy has only a d4 hit die, an 8 in each attribute (or the Dragon's attribute, if lower) and if called upon to make a skill check, suffers a -2 penalty in addition to the attribute bonus. It otherwise has the BAB, base saves and skill ranks of the Dragon that created it. Effigies are commonly used for deceptions, social misdirection and to give the illusion of the Persona's activity when the Dragon is absent. The Red Dragon gains the ability to assume a second persona without detriment. The restrictions of the Lesser Persona continue to apply, and any and all restrictions that apply to the Exarch apply to the Effigy as well. Only one Effigy may be created every month.
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Greater Subservients: Requires Lesser Subservients. The Dragon's subservients now have a collective CR totaling 3 times the dragon's HD, with no subservient having a CR greater than ½ the Dragon's HD. As word of the Dragon's power grows, the followers become more fanatical. Followers now replenish twice as fast.
Growth: A sixth level Red Dragon grows by one size category (typically to large size). Her reach, grapple modifiers, natural attack damage and skills change accordingly, but she doesn't gain any ability score bonuses or penalties. The range of her Presence abilities extends by 5', to 20' in most instances (this has already been applied to Red Dragon's Mien and Crimson Dragon's Mien). This is applied before the range boost offered by Deafening Roar, which now extends the effective range to 30' for most Presence abilities.

Dragon Wing: At sixth level, the Red Dragon gains flight out to 10' per HD, with poor maneuverability, to a maximum flight speed of 150'. The Dragon gains two wing attacks as secondary natural attacks that do 1d6 + ½ Str mod damage each, but using them imposes a -2 penalty to all secondary natural attacks. A Dragon that uses no other secondary natural attacks in a full attack gains the ability to move herself 5', as though she used a 5' step (not provoking attacks of opportunity as she does so). This movement may take place before, during or after the full attack, and leaves the Red Dragon free to use her usual 5' step as she pleases.

At 12 HD, the attack penalty for using wing attacks alongside other secondary natural weapons no longer applies.

Red Dragon's Mien: The majesty of the Red Dragon extends at seventh level, as the Red Dragon gains another Presence ability. Pick one of the following Presence abilities:
Unassailable Poise

Onset: The Dragon flexes and adopts a posture that sets her above the lesser creatures of the battlefield. The Dragon and all allies within 20' may make another saving throw to shake off any fear or morale effects that they are suffering from.

Passive: Grants a protective effect to the Dragon and a lesser benefit to allies within 20'. If the Dragon takes more than 8 + her Con Mod in damage in a single round, all subsequent damage is halved until the start of her next turn, at which point the passive effect resets.
Red Dragon's Remembrance:

Any one presence ability the dragon does not already have from Flame Dragon's Mien.

Dracomancy: The Xorvintaal Red Dragon of seventh level does not practice magic in the same way as some of its kith, that practice arcane magic in mimicry of the lesser humanoids. Even so, it gains several spell like abilities to further its agendas. It may use, as SLAs with a caster level equal to its HD:
Locate Object 1/day per 5 HD.
Suggestion 1/day per 5 HD.
Charm Monster 1/day per 5 HD.

Blazing Exhalation: An eighth level Red Dragon may employ a new technique using its breath weapon. The Red Dragon starts using Blazing Exhalation as a standard action. Thereafter, until the end of the Red Dragon's turn, the Red Dragon sets fire to every tile immediately beneath it (using the Red Dragon's space to determine the width of the effect). This ignites any tile the Red Dragon moves through or moves over (if flying and close enough to hit the ground with its breath weapon). Individuals do not take any damage for being in the area as the Dragon sets the area ablaze. That said, any individual that starts or ends its turn in a blazing tile acts as though it had been hit by the breath weapon, though it takes only half damage with a successful save negating damage entirely. Those that both start and end their turns in burning tiles take the damage twice. Foes take further fire damage equal to the Dragon's Con mod for every 5' of movement that takes them through burning tiles.

The blaze persists for 1 round per 6HD of the Red Dragon. The recharge time for the breath is doubled after using Blazing Exhalation.

Inner Furnace: At eighth level, the inner furnaces of the Red Dragon are well stoked by wrath and rage. The Red Dragon, after applying any multipliers and metabreath feats, may reduce the recharge time of its breath weapon by 1 round. However, this ability is not usable by default or refreshed by sleep, as the Dragon gains a single use of the reduction only when it scores the killing blow on an enemy worthy of granting it experience, to a maximum of one use (regardless of the number of killing blows). Opponents dropped to negative hitpoints by one of the Dragon's allies and left for the Dragon to finish off do not count as killing blows. Once acquired, the reduction applies to the next use of the Dragon's breath weapon. Any unspent uses are lost when the Dragon sleeps.

Wyrm's Wisdom: The ninth level Red Dragon may employ draconian wisdom to better understand the world around her. The Red Dragon may make a Draconic Knowledge check, (d20 + ¼ Dragon's HD + Dragon's Int mod + 1 per 5 ranks in the relevant knowledge skill) to gain information about an object, location or individual, using the same DCs and general results that a bard would gain from Bardic Knowledge. A Dragon that uses this ability to assess or identify a foe in combat gains the ability to reroll one saving throw that foe demands of the Dragon.

Dragonfire: The flames of a ninth level Red Dragon can make even stones burn. When the Red Dragon deals fire damage to enemies with fire resistance, be it with spells, equipment or its own racial abilities, the targets are considered to have only half the amount of fire resistance.

Crimson Dragon's Mien: The awe inspiring presence of the Red Dragon extends at tenth level, granting the Dragon another Presence ability. Pick one of the following Presence abilities:
Burning Wrath

Onset: The Red Dragon seethes with barely restrained rage, fire spilling from between its teeth like alchemist's fire, its eyes like burning coals, somehow more terrible than if it were on the attack. After activating this presence, the Red Dragon deals a bonus 1d6 fire damage per 6HD with each of its natural attacks, but suffers a -2 to hit.

Passive: Burning foes within 20' are shaken, and any shaken (but not yet burning) foes within 20' that are ignited are panicked for 1 round thereafter.
Crimson Dragon's Consideration:

Any one presence ability the dragon does not already have from Flame Dragon's Mien or Red Dragon's Mien.

Red Xorvintaal III: The Red Dragon that reaches tenth level advances the breadth of both her capabilities and her plots. Pick a new Draconic Superiority ability from the list below:

Vulnerability to Cold is reduced by 50%. If the Red Dragon already has reduced vulnerability to Cold from Xorvintaal I or Xorvintaal II, then these two vulnerability reductions instead combine for greater overall effect, making the Red Dragon take half cold damage, instead. If the Red Dragon has both, she becomes immune to cold.
The Red Dragon's fire can burn for critical damage. When the Red Dragon deals fire damage that demands a saving throw from the enemy, and the enemy gets a result of a 1 or a 2 on their save, that enemy must make another saving throw. If they fail the second save, they take double damage from the fire. If the enemy passes the second save, they are affected by the fire as normal.
The Dragon increases both the critical threat range and multiplier of one of her natural weapons by one step.
The Dragon extends the reach of one of her natural weapons by 5'.
The Dragon's natural weapons deal vile damage.
The Dragon, if brought to 50% hitpoints or below, gains +1 to hit and damage for every 5HD it has, until its hitpoints are restored above the 50% mark.
The Dragon is covered in spines. Foes attacking the Dragon unarmed or with a natural weapon, being bullrushed, overrun, crushed or failing a grapple check against the Dragon are impaled by a spine. Each spine imposes a cumulative -1 penalty to attacks, skill checks and saves made by the victim. With a full round action that provokes attacks of opportunity and deals 1d6 damage to the victim, all spines may be removed (the damage is static regardless of the number of spines removed). Either the victim or someone adjacent to the victim may remove the spines in this manner.
Any ability from the Xorvintaal I or Xorvintaal II lists the Red Dragon has not already taken.
And the Red Dragon may pick one of the upgrades from the following list that she meets the prerequisites for. Further, she may pick two Draconic Schemes, one from the Xorvintaal II list and one from the Xorvintaal I list, that it does not have and meets the prerequisites for (in the case of the latter).
Superior Exarch: Requires Greater Exarch. The Red Dragon's Exarch advances his abilities considerably. The Exarch replaces the remainder of its NPC class levels with fitting class levels, as described in Red Xorvintaal II, Greater Exarch, above. The Red Dragon gains a second Exarch, with the same restrictions as the first.
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Superior Enterprise: Requires Greater Enterprise. The Red Dragon's enterprise advances to give the Red Dragon a pool of bonus wealth equal to 50% of her total wealth or 50% of her Wealth by Level, using her HD to determine appropriate standing for the latter.
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Superior Persona: Requires Greater Persona. The Dragon's Effigy now has a +12 in each attribute or the Dragon's attribute, whichever is lower. The Dragon's primary and longest running Persona has advanced to a respected position in society, giving the Dragon standing on par with a noble (such as a vizier, noble, merchant noble, lord or lady knight, and so on). The Red Dragon, when acting through its Persona, gains a +4 to diplomacy checks to interact with other members of high society.
Superior Subservients: Requires Greater Subservients. The Dragon's subservients now have a collective CR totaling 5 times the dragon's HD, with no subservient having a CR greater than ½ the Dragon's HD. The Subservients, should the Dragon or her allies leave themselves in their care for a day, can provide the Dragon and her allies with any goods worth 100g or less and can remove mundane diseases and poisons. They also selflessly provide minor repairs to equipment and care for the party's animals.
Conflagration Exhalation: An eleventh level Red Dragon may employ a new technique using its breath weapon. With Conflagration Exhalation, the breath weapon deals damage in 1d3s instead of 1d6s. However, foes damaged by the Exhalation are caught on fire, as described in the Dungeon Master's Guide and SRD, copied below for convenience:
Characters exposed to burning oil, bonfires, and noninstantaneous magic fires might find their clothes, hair, or equipment on fire. Spells with an instantaneous duration don’t normally set a character on fire, since the heat and flame from these come and go in a flash.

Characters at risk of catching fire are allowed a DC 15 Reflex save to avoid this fate. If a character’s clothes or hair catch fire, he takes 1d6 points of damage immediately. In each subsequent round, the burning character must make another Reflex saving throw. Failure means he takes another 1d6 points of damage that round. Success means that the fire has gone out. (That is, once he succeeds on his saving throw, he’s no longer on fire.)

A character on fire may automatically extinguish the flames by jumping into enough water to douse himself. If no body of water is at hand, rolling on the ground or smothering the fire with cloaks or the like permits the character another save with a +4 bonus.

Those unlucky enough to have their clothes or equipment catch fire must make DC 15 Reflex saves for each item. Flammable items that fail take the same amount of damage as the character.
However, it should be noted, the Reflex save DCs mentioned in the text above are adjusted to match the DC for the Breath Weapon (10 + ½ Dragon's HD + Dragon's Con). If the Dragon uses Conflagration Exhalation on an already burning foe or on a foe standing on a burning patch of ground, then the breath instead stirs the flames to an incredible heat. Conflagration Exhalation deals damage in 1d10s for foes that are on fire or standing on burning ground.

Growth: A twelfth level Red Dragon grows a size category (typically to huge size). Her reach, grapple modifiers, natural attack damage and skills change accordingly, but she doesn't gain any ability score bonuses or penalties. The range of her Presence abilities extends by 5', to 25' in most instances. This is applied before the range boost offered by Deafening Roar (which would extend the range to 35').

Dragon's Tail: At twelfth level, the Dragon gains a tail attack as a secondary natural attack that does 1d8 + ½ Str mod damage for a large size creature, but using it imposes a -2 penalty to all secondary natural attacks. A Dragon that uses no other secondary natural attacks in a full attack or who uses just the tail as a standard attack gains the ability to knock the foe 10' away for every 5 damage dealt by the tail.

At 18HD, the penalty for using the tail alongside other natural attacks no longer applies.

Ruby Dragon's Mien: The terrible presence of the Red Dragon extends at thirteenth level, granting the Dragon another Presence ability. Pick one of the following Presence abilities:


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Ruby Dragon's Consideration:

Any one presence ability the dragon does not already have from Flame Dragon's Mien, Red Dragon's Mien or Crimson Dragon's Mien.

???: Thirteenth level passive. Maybe environmental (heat?)

Immolating Exhalation: Fourteenth level active.

Greater Dracomancy: Fourteenth level passive. SLAs

???: Fifteenth level active. Review, figure out what aspects of the flavor I'm missing, cover that.

Red Xorvintaal IV: Fifteenth level passive.

Carnelian Dragon's Mien: Sixteenth level active.

Wyrmfire: The flames of a sixteenth level Red Dragon can make even water burn. The benefits of Dragonfire (see above) extend, as the Red Dragon now ignores fire resistance and deals half fire damage to any creature that is immune to fire, unless that creature has the fire subtype.

Incinerating Exhalation: Seventeenth level.

Growth: An eighteenth level Red Dragon grows a size category (typically to gargantuan size). Her reach, grapple modifiers, natural attack damage and skills change accordingly, but she doesn't gain any ability score bonuses or penalties. The range of her Presence abilities extends by 10', to 40' in most instances. This is applied before the range boost offered by Deafening Roar (which would extend the range to 60').

Crush: Eighteenth level.

Cardinal Dragon's Mien: Nineteenth level.

Progenitor of Flame: At nineteenth level, the Red Dragon may leverage its elemental heritage to influence fire and magical flame. As an immediate action, the Red Dragon may make a Charisma check to redirect any attack, effect or spell that would cause fire damage to another target (or target point, for area of effects). The new target (or target area) must fall within an area of 5' per point of the Dragon's charisma modifier. If the attack in question is a melee attack, this is halved. The DC for the check is 20 in the event of nonmagical fire, breath weapons and the like. In the event that the fire damage would be dealt by a spell, this becomes an opposed roll, with the caster using their spellcasting stat to oppose.

Exhalation of Holocausts: Capstone. An eleventh level Red Dragon may employ its penultimate technique using its breath weapon. Use of Exhalation of Holocausts is a standard action, and delays its effect for two rounds, at which point the Red Dragon uses its standard action again, drowning the battlefield in a tide of unnaturally hot, supernatural flames.

Red Xorvintaal V: Capstone.
So... yeah. I'm actually a fair bit more done than I am, above (this is just the last version I happened to PM to myself to preview/backup), it's just that I don't want to go digging through google docs to find my worksheet & then make sure everything is formatted. If I did that, I'd start working on it, and then I'd miss the discussion. May have already. But I'm just putting this out there in this fashion because I've got 3 monsters on the unfinished list and I didn't want to post the finished product of XRD here until I had only the goblins on the unfinished list.

Anyways, the premise isn't that different from what Oslecamo suggested further up the page, for the template. Not getting caught up in the fluff aspect of the template, but the spirit of why WotC created that template in the first place - to get away from the situation where Dragons feel less like dragons and more like casters with big beefy dangerous natural attacks - well, that sort of echoes my own issues with the dragons.

Presence abilities to make you feel like a real terror on the battlefield, breath weapon tricks aimed at making people think "I don't want to get hit by that!". Number of natural attacks counterbalanced by a built-in penalty for adding them into a full attack, with tactical options for using less than your full complement of natural attacks.

Let me stress that it is not done. The above is still at the 'get every idea down on the page' stage, and has yet to be tweaked, stuff has to be moved around, rebalanced, yadda yadda.

But there it is.


Hey, I have a request for you guys. Could you make an Unbodied monster class fairly soon?

I'll tell you what I tell everyone who makes a request:

Requests are allowed, even encouraged, but given that everyone here is either in the middle of something (or three somethings) or already has a solid idea for what they want to do next, requests don't tend to get snapped up. Your best bet, if your monster is smallish (CR 5 or less, most templates), is to do it yourself, with our help.

But in the end, while I wish you luck with getting your request fulfilled, I wouldn't hold my breath. Especially as far as getting it 'fairly soon'. Sorry. Stuff takes a little while here.

Lix Lorn
2011-02-27, 10:41 AM
Why in the Nine again? We could make a template for the generic dragon. A template. Then people would want to make a white dragon. "Ohhh, there's a template. But then, whites should be less smart, let's reduce Int. Oh, and reduce size too. Good. Now add abilities to make up for it..."
Just saying, the more choices a class has, the harder it is to balance.

Frog Dragon
2011-02-27, 10:44 AM
In light of my draconic timing, I'm going to declare myself psychic. Hmmm... I'm a (frog) dragon, and a psychic sooo.... I'm a gem dragon? :smalltongue:

Hyudra
2011-02-27, 10:46 AM
Just saying, the more choices a class has, the harder it is to balance.

Well, as I interpret DiBastet's proposal, I don't think it was so much choices as building a rough outline that you could then tweak, adjust, and fill in the blanks for, depending on the dragon you were creating. By having that rough outline, you'd have something to go by.

Frog Dragon
2011-02-27, 10:48 AM
Well, as I interpret DiBastet's proposal, I don't think it was so much choices as building a rough outline that you could then tweak, adjust, and fill in the blanks for, depending on the dragon you were creating. By having that rough outline, you'd have something to go by.
Which is actually what we've been doing already, given that pretty much all the dragons have had all the same general abilities. The template was less than stellar though.

Hyudra
2011-02-27, 10:50 AM
Which is actually what we've been doing already, given that pretty much all the dragons have had all the same general abilities. The template was less than stellar though.

Yes, that's essentially it, and it's where I was getting irritated with dragons in general. The basis with which we were building all of the dragons was based on a flawed/skewed premise foundation.

DiBastet
2011-02-27, 11:16 AM
Things about dragon template

Amen!

People do understand me from time to time!

But then, if Hyudra is already working on a xovisalad dragon I won't even discuss it further, since I can't make any other thing until people decide the ragewalker's fine. Besides, whatever I did was to be fully criticized and "too much". Better leave one of the triunvirate of doom do it, that at least people will consider the idea :smallannoyed:

(I fully remember someone saying that xorvisalad dragons weren't a good idea as a class, only as an option, and now, see, a xorvisalad dragon as a class :smallannoyed:)

I'm done with this dragon @#$% I just want to make my fey. :smallannoyed:

Frog Dragon
2011-02-27, 11:24 AM
xorvisalad... xorvisaladSounds yummy.

Dssmiles: You should edit your old post, not make a new one. Doing that confuses people and screws up listing because currently, the unfinished monsters list would link to the old version.

dsmiles
2011-02-27, 11:28 AM
Sounds yummy.

Dssmiles: You should edit your old post, not make a new one. Doing that confuses people and screws up listing because currently, the unfinished monsters list would link to the old version.
My bad. Old Post update in progress.

EDIT: Done.

Hyudra
2011-02-27, 11:32 AM
@ Dsmiles and Lizard Lord

Please note, we try not to repost the monster classes as we do revisions. It creates a ton of confusion: people critique old versions, links become outdated, yadda yadda.

I've (belatedly) added Hooded Pupil and Psurlon to the 'unfinished monsters' list, using the first instance where you linked to them.

If you please, can you check the link on the first page ('unfinished monsters') and clean up/edit out any monsters thereafter? Be sure to copy-paste your new work into the original post, lest you lose your revisions.

Edit: Half Swordsaged?

dsmiles
2011-02-27, 11:40 AM
Edit: Half Swordsaged?Wha...how...is that a new template? The Half-Swordsage? :smalltongue:

Lix Lorn
2011-02-27, 11:41 AM
Hey, if it is, we're in the right place. :P

Gorgondantess
2011-02-27, 11:43 AM
Please note, we try not to repost the monster classes as we do revisions. It creates a ton of confusion: people critique old versions, links become outdated, yadda yadda.
Trust me, it's for the best. You do that, and I'll get pissed off and take forever to finish critiquing your monster. See: gargoyle.


Amen!

People do understand me from time to time!

But then, if Hyudra is already working on a xovisalad dragon I won't even discuss it further, since I can't make any other thing until people decide the ragewalker's fine. Besides, whatever I did was to be fully criticized and "too much". Better leave one of the triunvirate of doom do it, that at least people will consider the idea :smallannoyed:

(I fully remember someone saying that xorvisalad dragons weren't a good idea as a class, only as an option, and now, see, a xorvisalad dragon as a class :smallannoyed:)

I'm done with this dragon @#$% I just want to make my fey. :smallannoyed:

Whoah, whoah, calm down. It was probably Oslecamo (the originator of these threads) who decided against Xorvichicken monsters, and really, props to him for starting the project, but you have to disregard pretty much everything he said. We've really only kept the very bare bones of his ideas.
Or it was me, and frankly I'm not that keen on the idea anyways, but hey, I'm not solely running this thing anymore, and Hyudra's done more for this project than me, so I have to make some concessions. Still not gonna let the goblin(s) thing go, though.:smalltongue:
Or it was someone else who was just making a suggestion and you misinterpreted it. It happens.
As for the ragewalker, you're new here, and you've taken on a 9+ level monster class (which we have specifically told new monster makers not to do, repeatedly), so count yourself blessed we've allowed you to revise it at all. Normally we'll turn newbies to smaller creatures before they tackle that kindof thing. I'll have a review up in a few hours and it'll be that much closer to being in the bag.



Wha...how...is that a new template? The Half-Swordsage? :smalltongue:
Homebrew monster class people: make it happen!

DiBastet
2011-02-27, 12:01 PM
Things

Truste me, if I'm saying things like @#$% or xorvisalad dragon then I'm okay with it, and probably I'm laughing. Darth Kyubi made me understand it when I was angry with it (it...?). Apparently I'm serious when angry.

So I'm calm.

BTW, I'm going to dm my weekly game now, but will take a look at the review later.

Hyudra
2011-02-27, 12:02 PM
Truste me, if I'm saying things like @#$% or xorvisalad dragon then I'm okay with it, and probably I'm laughing. Darth Kyubi made me understand it when I was angry with it (it...?). Apparently I'm serious when angry.

So I'm calm.

BTW, I'm going to dm my weekly game now, but will take a look at the review later.

Share how it goes.

Benly
2011-02-27, 12:08 PM
I'm not a fan of xorvintaal fluff or of the word itself, but it addresses a pretty fundamental problem with 3E dragon design. The problem is that in 3E, a high caster is about the most powerful thing you can be, so giving a dragon high-level casting abilities in addition to being a dragon doesn't do what they probably intended (big scary dragon who also has magical abilities), but rather just makes you a caster who happens to have a big scaly body. Replacing the spellcasting with some flavorful abilities is just about the only thing you can usefully do about that - I think some of the Sovereign Archetypes in Eberron do that too, although I'm not sure.

Frog Dragon
2011-02-27, 12:09 PM
I'm officially a Phrenic Half-Swordsage Frog Dragon now.

Also, critiquing the Psurlon again.

Hit Dice: d6

{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Class Features

1st|
+0|
+0|
+0|
+2|Worm Body, Ability Bonus, Inertial Armor, Immunities, Psionics (Brain Lock), Telekinetic Blast, Telepathy

2nd|
+1|
+0|
+0|
+3|Ability Bonus, Blindsight, Combat Manifestation, Cloud Mind

3rd|
+2|
+1|
+1|
+3|Claws, Damage Reduction, Read Thoughts, Telekinetic Thrust

4th|
+3|
+1|
+1|
+4|Improved Telekinetic Blast, Power Resistance, Telekinetic Maneuver

5th|
+3|
+1|
+1|
+4|Convoluted Mind, Psionic Dimension Door [/table]

Skills Points at First Level: (4+Intelligence Modifier) x 4
Skills Points at Each Level: (4+Intelligence Modifier)
Class Skills: The Psurlon's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Bluff (Cha), Concentration (Con), Diplomacy (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (Dungeoneering), Knowledge (Psionics) (Int), Psicraft (Int), and Sense Motive (Wis).

Proficiencies: The Psurlon gains is proficient with only its natural weapons. Psurlons gain no proficiency with armor or shields.

Psurlon Class Features: The following are the Class Features of the Psurlon.

Worm Body (Ex): At first level the Psurlon loses all racial traits. They become a Medium Aberration. They gain a bite attack as a primary natural weapon, dealing 1d6 damage. A Psurlon's primary natural weapons add their STR modifier to damage. Psurlons are naturally psionic, and at first level gain 1 bonus power point. At each following level, a Psurlon gains bonus power points equal to half of their current Hit Dice (rounded down). A Psurlon has darkvision to a range of 60 ft. They also have a +4 racial bonus on Escape Artist checks due to their soft and flexible bodies. So, at first level, you have 1 PP, at third level 3, at fourth level, 5, and so on. Interesting, but workable. The question is, what is it using these power points for? PLA:s don't expend PP, so this ability only comes in play when multiclassing into a psionic class. While a similar effect shows up in many of the kinda-sorta-caster monsters that don't actually have spellcasting, they're still not gaining blank spell slots with which they can do nothing with. If you're giving extra PP to the critter, you might want to give it a abilities to burn said PP on. Perhaps something relating to the PLA:s?
On a similar track, this seems to be designed for a Psion/Wilder multiclass, but apart from the added PP, it's not actually very good for that, since if it takes 5 levels of this class, its manifesting and manifester levels are going to be pretty stunted. You might want to cook up a psionic version of the multiclass rule for for many casters, something like "levels in Psurlon count as levels in whatever psionic base class the Psurlon multiclasses into for the purpose of maximum power level known".

Ability Bonus (Ex): At 1st level, the Psurlon gains a +2 bonus to Charisma. This bonus increases by +1 every level, to a maximum of +6 at 5th level.
At 2nd level, the Psurlon gains a +1 bonus to Intelligence. This bonus increases by +1 every level, to a maximum of +4 at 5th level. As a rule, the maximum bonus to a single ability is +1/level. This is a minor nitpick, but still. Also, list the bonuses on the table, like "+1 Cha". Otherwise, looks good.

Immunities (Ex): Psurlons are immune to sleep, charm, and compulsion effects.

Inertial Armor (Su):Psurlons project a mild field of force from their bodies, giving them a deflection bonus equal to their Constitution modifier. This is... Well, it's more powerful than NA, since it adds to touch AC. It has a weird effect, since rings of protection are useless for this guy, so in the end, it's just a bunch of gold saved on deflection bonuses to AC. It's kinda weird. Not sure if I like it.

Psionics (Ps): As a Psurlon becomes more powerful, it gains powers as Psi-like abilities, and additional power points.
At 1st level, a Psurlon gains the following ability: brain lock (1/day per manifester level).
At 2nd level, the Psurlon gains the following Psi-like ability: cloud mind (1/day per manifester level).
At 3rd level, Psurlons gain the following Psi-like abilities: read thoughts (at will) and telekinetic thrust (1/day per 2 manifester levels).
At 4th level, the Psurlon gains the following Psi-like ability: telekinetic maneuver (1/day per 2 manifester levels).
At 5th level, Psurlons gain the following Psi-like ability: psionic dimension door (1/day per two manifester levels).
A Psurlon's manifester level is equal to its Hit Dice, and the save DCs are Charisma-based. Nothing much new here, except for the confusing wording in the start. You already list the extra PP in "Worm Body", so you shouldn't restate it here, making the reader think there's something more to the "extra PP".

Telekinetic Blast (Su): Masters of telekinesis, psurlons rarely attack with physical weapons, instead preferring to use their telekinetic blast. At 1st level, a Psurlon may, as a standard action, project a blast of telekinetic force that causes 1d6 (+ the Psurlon's Charisma modifier) force damage on a successful ranged touch attack. At each odd level this damage increases by 1d6. I'm not sure about this. It is kinda weird that you get a warlock level blast for the rest of your career with a one level psurlon dip. I prefer wording that restricts scaling to monster HD until they've actually taken the class to the end.
Even if that was done, this is still kinda weird, exactly because it's eldritch blast+ gained in five levels. Maybe have it require a minor amount of power points to activate, so it doesn't step on the warlock's spammy toes so much?

Telepathy (Ps): A Psurlon can communicate with any creature that has a language telepathically, within 50 ft per Hit Die to a maximum range of 250 ft. Better now. The scaling might still stand to be reduced, while keeping the same cap, but it's really a toss-up now.

Blindsight (Ex): At 2nd level Psurlon develops the ability to ascertain its surroundings by sensing sound, scent, heat, and vibration. This ability allows it to discern objects and creatures within 60'. The Psurlon does not normally need to make Spot or Listen checks to notice creatures within range of its blindsight. I said what I had to say about this, and there's nothing new here.

Combat Manifestation (Ex): At 2nd level, the Psurlon gains Combat Manifestation as a bonus feat. Blarg. Boring bonus feat is boring. But meh.

Damage Reduction (Ex): Beginning at 3rd level the Psurlon gains Damage Reduction equal to (1/2HD)/psionic. I still don't really like "DR/Psionic", since I don't think I've ever seen a critter that has it. If it actually has a precedent though, it might stand.

Improved Telekinetic Blast (Su): Beginning at 4th level, as a full-round action, the Psurlon may manifest its telekinetic blast against multiple targets. For each 4 Hit Dice, the Psurlon may add one additional target, to a maximum of 4 additional targets. The Psurlon needs to make a successful ranged touch attack against each target in order to inflict damage. Still is kinda accentuating the Eldricth Blast+++ issue, but it's a good ability. Maybe add a power point cost to this as well?

Power Resistance (Su): At 4th level, the Psurlon's mind becomes resistant to mental attacks. It gains Power Resistance equal to 10 plus its Hit Dice Covered this already. Missing "." at the end.

Convoluted Mind (Ex): At 5th level the Psurlon's neural pathways become twisted and a mental door unlocks. The Psurlon manifests its psi-like abilities as if it had 2 extra Hit Dice. This also increases it uses per day. Nothing new here either.
Here we go. I covered the new stuff. The chassis is hardly overpowered, and neither are the abilities really. Just the Eldritch Blast-except-better-and-with-less-investment kinda jumps at the eye, even if Warlock is a weak-ish class. The "Inertial Armor" ability is also kinda weird.

And @ Benly. Wyrm of War (Dragons of Eberron Sovereign Archetype) is... kinda decent at that. It allows you to trade spells for Tiger Claw maneuvers of equal level.

Benly
2011-02-27, 12:22 PM
Here we go. I covered the new stuff. The chassis is hardly overpowered, and neither are the abilities really. Just the Eldritch Blast-except-better-and-with-less-investment kinda jumps at the eye, even if Warlock is a weak-ish class.

So here's the thing about Eldritch Blast: it's not good. It's not something you can build the class around, but they did, and the result is that the warlock is not good.

The average damage from this progression at level 9 is 5d6 + cha. The average of 5d6 is 17.5, which let's round for the sake of tidiness to 18. What else deals 18 damage on average without consuming any resources?

1: A level 4 warrior with 16 Str, a mundane greatsword and Power Attack.
2: A level 9 wizard with a reserve feat who is deciding the situation isn't worth any spells.
3: A level 9 rogue attacking you with a soft, fluffy pillow, and choosing not to take a full attack. (If he attacked you with a knitting needle, it would push the damage too high to compare fairly.)
4: A level 6 incarnate who has Dissolving Spittle shaped but doesn't feel like binding it or putting Expanded Soulmeld Capacity into it that day.
5: A horse.

18 damage once per round at will is not especially strong for a level 9 character. It is, in fact, kind of bad. The multiple attacks help, but this is still actually kind of weak for what's apparently supposed to be the backbone of the character's fighting style. The concern about dipping isn't really a serious issue, since most classes already have better ways to do that kind of damage without needing to screw around with a dip. The only class I could see dipping for this ability is rogue.

Frog Dragon
2011-02-27, 12:26 PM
So here's the thing about Eldritch Blast: it's not good. It's not something you can build the class around, but they did, and the result is that the warlock is not good.

The average damage from this progression at level 9 is 5d6 + cha. The average of 5d6 is 17.5, which let's round for the sake of tidiness to 18. What else deals 18 damage on average without consuming any resources?

1: A level 4 warrior with 16 Str, a mundane greatsword and Power Attack.
2: A level 9 wizard with a reserve feat who is deciding the situation isn't worth any spells.
3: A level 9 rogue attacking you with a soft, fluffy pillow, and choosing not to take a full attack. (If he attacked you with a knitting needle, it would push the damage too high to compare fairly.)
4: A level 6 incarnate who has Dissolving Spittle shaped but doesn't feel like binding it or putting Expanded Soulmeld Capacity into it that day.
5: A horse.

18 damage once per round at will is not especially strong for a level 9 character. It is, in fact, kind of bad. The multiple attacks help, but this is still actually kind of weak for what's apparently supposed to be the backbone of the character's fighting style. The concern about dipping isn't really a serious issue, since most classes already have better ways to do that kind of damage without needing to screw around with a dip. The only class I could see dipping for this ability is rogue.
You do have a point there.

mootoall
2011-02-27, 12:30 PM
Also, it does say that the damage scales per level, unless I misread, and only number of targets scales by HD, meaning that damage is actually even more capped. In other news, what's the CR and sauce for Unbodied? I might give it a shot if it's not too difficult ...

Frog Dragon
2011-02-27, 12:31 PM
Also, it does say that the damage scales per level, unless I misread, and only number of targets scales by HD, meaning that damage is actually even more capped. In other news, what's the CR and sauce for Unbodied? I might give it a shot if it's not too difficult ...
That's true. Then the ability is pretty obsolete after a while.

Hyudra
2011-02-27, 12:35 PM
Well put, Benly. I like your examples.

I've see arguments/analysis of the Warlock Class posing that the class could get 1d6 eldritch blast damage for every level in the class and still be subpar.

In part, this is because of how there's a growing gap between damage dealt and enemies getting extra HD at higher levels. By the time you get to level 20, enemies can and will have more than twice as many HD as they have CR. Given that enemies tend to get HP more steadily than you're getting damage, damage becomes outclassed at high levels, and the only way to finish off enemies (that isn't a chore) is save or lose/die effects. It's for this reason that I tend to give my brute monsters some sort of finisher. A save or die, a save or lose, or a way to deal such massive damage that they can stay relevant.

As far as blasting goes, a good general rule of thumb would be...
1d6 damage per HD for single target blasts. These can miss somehow (being a ranged touch attack, allowing a saving throw).

Or 1d6 damage per 2HD. This applies to both AoE blasts and blasts with gravy (Detrimental effects tacked on).
These can be adjusted. For example, dragons get AoE blasts (firebreath as a cone), but have recharge times, so it's not spammable. Pandorym, IIRC, has a more potent blast, but spends power points to dish it out (and lacks arms, legs, a body, etc). Pandorym isn't yet added to the master list, as I recall, but the point stands.

If your monster has sufficient room to detail advancement (ie. it extends over 15 levels), it's not a bad idea to allow room for a 'finisher' as part of the blast, later on. Some devastating effect or the like that is added on, given the right context/setup, or given limited uses, etc. If you're talking a one level monster, I wouldn't worry overmuch about it.

dsmiles
2011-02-27, 12:45 PM
So, at first level, you have 1 PP, at third level 3, at fourth level, 5, and so on. Interesting, but workable. The question is, what is it using these power points for? PLA:s don't expend PP, so this ability only comes in play when multiclassing into a psionic class. While a similar effect shows up in many of the kinda-sorta-caster monsters that don't actually have spellcasting, they're still not gaining blank spell slots with which they can do nothing with. If you're giving extra PP to the critter, you might want to give it a abilities to burn said PP on. Perhaps something relating to the PLA:s?
On a similar track, this seems to be designed for a Psion/Wilder multiclass, but apart from the added PP, it's not actually very good for that, since if it takes 5 levels of this class, its manifesting and manifester levels are going to be pretty stunted. You might want to cook up a psionic version of the multiclass rule for for many casters, something like "levels in Psurlon count as levels in whatever psionic base class the Psurlon multiclasses into for the purpose of maximum power level known".Got it.


As a rule, the maximum bonus to a single ability is +1/level. This is a minor nitpick, but still. Also, list the bonuses on the table, like "+1 Cha". Otherwise, looks good.Fixed.


Nothing much new here, except for the confusing wording in the start. You already list the extra PP in "Worm Body", so you shouldn't restate it here, making the reader think there's something more to the "extra PP".Fixed.


I'm not sure about this. It is kinda weird that you get a warlock level blast for the rest of your career with a one level psurlon dip. I prefer wording that restricts scaling to monster HD until they've actually taken the class to the end.
Even if that was done, this is still kinda weird, exactly because it's eldritch blast+ gained in five levels. Maybe have it require a minor amount of power points to activate, so it doesn't step on the warlock's spammy toes so much?Fixed. The Psurlon is now the psionic version of the Warlock. As in: only levels in Psurlon advance the blast.


The scaling might still stand to be reduced, while keeping the same cap, but it's really a toss-up now.I'm thinking 50' +20'/level


I still don't really like "DR/Psionic", since I don't think I've ever seen a critter that has it. If it actually has a precedent though, it might stand.I'm sticking to my guns, here. In a Psionics are the Same type of campaign, it's the same as having DR/magic.


Still is kinda accentuating the Eldricth Blast+++ issue, but it's a good ability. Maybe add a power point cost to this as well? PP cost added/target.


Covered this already. Missing "." at the end. Whoops. :smallredface:


Nothing new here either.

Here we go. I covered the new stuff. The chassis is hardly overpowered, and neither are the abilities really. Just the Eldritch Blast-except-better-and-with-less-investment kinda jumps at the eye, even if Warlock is a weak-ish class.
I think I've adressed all you concerns.

Updated.

Frog Dragon
2011-02-27, 12:47 PM
Fixed. The Psurlon is now the psionic version of the Warlock. As in: only levels in Psurlon advance the blast.

PP cost added/target.
Yeah, the others noted that my concerns concerning those weren't very valid.

dsmiles
2011-02-27, 12:51 PM
Yeah, the others noted that my concerns concerning those weren't very valid.Yeah, I'm seeing that now. Maybe I should read the comments while I'm fixing the class, eh? I think they're right, so I'm swapping it back.

EDIT: I am, however, keeping PP/target. Updated.

Hyudra
2011-02-27, 12:53 PM
I'm doing a batch of reviews of recent monsters, just as a heads up. I'm on the hooded pupil atm, so if you're making changes to the Psurlon, you may wanna wrap up in the next 5-10 min, as it may be next.

Scio
2011-02-27, 01:00 PM
Sorry to be anal retentive but:


Dracomancy:


I just really hate it when people just tack on -mancy. It just makes me want to stab something.
Other than that, I skimmed the class and it looks pretty sweet.
Again, sorry. :smallfrown:

Mystic Muse
2011-02-27, 01:05 PM
But then, if Hyudra is already working on a xovisalad dragon I won't even discuss it further, since I can't make any other thing until people decide the ragewalker's fine. Besides, whatever I did was to be fully criticized and "too much". Better leave one of the triunvirate of doom do it, that at least people will consider the idea :smallannoyed:

(I fully remember someone saying that xorvisalad dragons weren't a good idea as a class, only as an option, and now, see, a xorvisalad dragon as a class :smallannoyed:)


If you're referring to me, what I meant was having it be forced upon the player doesn't seem like a great idea. I had absolutely no idea Hyudra was doing a Shyamalamadingdong(Wrong thing? :smalltongue:) dragon and from what I saw of the template I just wasn't a fan of it.

I'll talk more later, but right now, I need sleep badly.

Gorgondantess
2011-02-27, 01:06 PM
Other reviews shall come soon enough, but these are just Hyudra's monsters. The reason her monsters are a top priority of mine is that Hyudra is our best & most dedicated critiquer. But she can't review her own monsters, so... that's my job. I will get to gargoyle next, and all the 1st timers. Again, if you want a review, pestering me (over chat!) is a great way to get it.

Goblins:
'Hoo boy.
Thing is, this thing doesn't really scream goblin for me. It screams "insert small PC-fodder critter here". In fact, it screams "kobold" far more than anything else- even goblin- as kobolds have a greater propensity to work in small groups, whereas goblins just attack en masse. They are specifically quite disorganized. With goblins, "treating as a single entity" is iffy. Not so much with kobolds, though.
As such, I'll restate that it would be a little better off in the homebrew thread, as something like "gremlins". And if you did kobold, you'd still have to change things up, as that really isn't what kobolds are all about: just a small facet.
Now, I do think it's a good idea, and it can and should be expanded upon. I think the best use of this, because it's so general, would be as something of a PrC for monstrous critters, kobolds, goblins, quasits, whatever, who want to focus on the swarming aspect. That would work- in fact, that would work well. But as ism, it's not a goblin monster class, it's "experimental critter #2".
That being said.
In your example, what would be the end result after revivifications: 1/1/2? But then, how would that be recorded in your other format? There's still enough damage to take 1 goblin out of combat, by RAW, so they'd have to... keep reviving him until they're up to 7/6/3.
Also: I find it odd they can't be killed unless the whole group is killed. Imagine the following scenario:
3 goblins, Buzzlebubby, Greebs & Snatch are in combat with Muffet the monstrous spider. Oh, no! Buzzlebubby has fallen! Greebs & snatch move on to keep fighting, but then they fall down a pit and, having a few ranks in tumble, survive but end up a few floors down in the dungeon.
Greebs & Snatch are 3 floors down fighting an otyugh.
Meanwhile, Muffet is rancorously biting at Buzzlebubby. She's poisoned him repeatedly with con damage, biting him again and again. And yet he lives!
Greebs and Snatch are resting to regain spells.
Muffet webs up Buzzlebubby and sucks out all his fluids. And yet he lives!
Greebs and Snatch have been captured by mindflayers and plane shifted to their secret lair in the astral plane.
Muffet has laid her eggs in Buzzlebubby by now.
Greebs and Snatch escape the mindflayer lair and return for Beezlebubby, who is currently covered by baby spiders who have devoured his flesh. Because the DM is a stickler for RAW, Beezlebubby is revived one full action later. The DM, wanting to keep verisimilitude, levels them up and forces them to take the awakened skeleton template next level, and then swarmshifter template.
Speaking of which, how would that work? One of them is a skeleton, so they're all undead?
Speaking of the above example, say Beezlebubby drags himself to the hole and back to the group, who are currently dominated by the illithids. What happens to Beezlebubby, who was a ways away at the time, and has just arrived on the scene?
Otherwise, couldn't find any glaring errors, but I know they're there. Something like this HAS to have stuff like that come up.

Medusa:
I still want the ability to use swaying cobra in conjunction with ouroboros coils before they both become obsolete with coils.:smalltongue:
Viper's Fang Stance: Talk about slamming your opponent into the ground with 0 strength. *shudder*. This'd be better as a Serpentine Stance III.
I like what you did with Stalking Serpent.
Beyond that, might want to look into specifying bonus type (insight, circumstantial, etc.) for DC bonuses all around. There's some stacking that could definitely be going on, and on top of that any medusa worth her salt is going to grab ability focus for both poison and petrification.
That being said, I think it's good. Thumbsup.

Awakened Spider:
Web: might want to say REgains.
Might want to scale up range. Just 5' increment plus 5' per 4 HD would do wonders.
Reel In+Let Slack: I can totally see a spider lifting up a creature and dropping it to the ground repeatedly in this way.:smallbiggrin:
Necrosis: sure I like how this was handled. Doesn't seem indicative to, well, necrosis. I would've simply allowed the spider to alternately do HP damage equal to the ability damage the spider would've dealt against a creature who is immune to poison. Nice, simple, powerful & efficient. It's not so much a systems damage as you're dissolving something's flesh.
Brood mother: Goddamn. That's terrifying. And powerful for 3rd level. I'd at least remove the +2 to save, and put a limit on the uses so she's not doing it every time and gaining infinite (or near enough) and powerful minions at level 3.
Also, might want to include something so that it's actually useful at level 10+ to get a swarm, like the spider can devour her young as a swift action to regain X HP and web uses?
Tarsus impaler: 3.5 generally doesn't deal in minuses or pluses for base weapon damage. They don't scale well. Rather, it'd likely be best to simply have it deal a base damage of 1+1/2 str mod damage. Also, this base damage is for... a small critter? Regardless, might want to specify.
Razor Tangle+clothesline: ummm... clarify? I see no reflex save. Also, is it the person who is hit by the web, or the person who walks into the line that might get decapitated? How long does clothesline last? If they're hit by the clothesline with razor tangle, but don't roll a low number, do they take damage?
Spiderbite AC reduction: can this reduce to negative AC?
Bite attacks on already poisoned foes: was this before you found that poison stacks? If so, might want to remove it, as it's pretty... redundant... and powerful...
Silent Skirr: Okay, so the spider is silent... but what about her foes? Kindof useless unless you manage to 1-shot EVERYONE.
Eerie chitter: a bit of a leap from shakened to panicked. Frightened?
"The poison deals Int, Wis or Cha damage equal to half of whatever physical ability damage it causes"
In addition?
Lurker's mandibles: yowzers.:smalleek: This could be abusable.

dsmiles
2011-02-27, 01:13 PM
Goblins:
'Hoo boy.Sounds to me like the only thing Buzzlebubby got out of that was a bad day. Poisoned, eaten, egg-warmer...ouch! :smalltongue:

Hyudra
2011-02-27, 01:21 PM
Hooded Pupil (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10449208&postcount=711)
Just a heads up, I reviewed this Hooded Pupil (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10449208&postcount=711). I think you may have posted it twice, see my post a half page up about reposting monsters. In any case, edit the first post rather than resubmitting, please.
Prerequisites are a little dry. Consider that prereqs are the group's first exposure/introduction to the monster class. You don't want it to be, like:

Player A: "Woah, you're a hooded pupil. When did that happen?"
Player B: "Meh. I sorta knew some general stuff.
Even something like a ritual to enter would be flavorful, and ideally would involve some challenge or investment on the part of the player. What is a hooded pupil, why would someone be taking a level in it? Try to create a flavorful parallel to the adoption of the template.
Looking at the table, that's a lot of stuff in there. It looks a tad messy. I get that we asked you to fit a bunch of stuff into 1 level of monster, so let's go through the meat of the class and see what can be tidied up or tweaked.
"Skills Points at 1rst Level:" - should be Skill points at first level.
Class skills seem alright. Use rope seems a little weird, but I can let that slide.
"Proficiencies: The Hooded Pupil gains proficiency with the following Simple and Martial Weapons and light armor." - reword to 'The Hooded Pupil is proficient with simple weapons, martial weapons and light armor.
I went to look & noticed it was absent. I stress that you should state the source of the monster clearly on the entry. I tend to prefer:

Monster Name
[Picture]
|Picture|
[Picture]
Monster Class (or 'Template/Monster Prestige Class')
Sourcebook (ie. 'Heroes of Horror')


Ability Score Increases: Try to cut it down to just two ability scores. We don't tend to go beyond that, especially for monsters that can wear armor, speak, cast spells, etc. (Stuff like griffons might get the two ability scores, but something like Githzerai wouldn't)
Spider climb: Sure. Kinda treading on warlock toes here, but it's not a huge problem.
Clutch of Orcus: It looks as though you more or less copied the ability from the spell text. Only it doesn't paralyze. This, I believe, goes against forum rules, at least in spirit. I'll clarify what I said before: I would recommend coming up with an ability that does something similar, with its own mechanics, or find something appropriate in non-copyrighted material. You could, if you wished to preserve flavor, give an option, like:

Heart Clutch: You may focus on your opponents, causing them harm as you manipulate their blood against them. Pick one of the following:
[spoiler] You Gain Clutch of Orcus (Libris Mortis, p.63) as a spell like ability, castable once a day per two HD.
Blood Font: You may concentrate your malign will on a foe, causing them to sweat blood and their wounds to bleed profusely. While you concentrate, your target foe is slowed as per the spell by the agony of the ordeal, and takes 1d3 damage for every two HD you have. Foes who are already damaged (that is, not at full health or over max health by way of temporary hp) take 1d6 damage per two HD for each round you concentrate, instead. Foes below half health take 1d8 damage per two HD each round you concentrate. Foes get a saving throw (DC 10 + ½ Hooded Pupil HD + Hooded Pupil wisdom mod or Hooded Pupil charisma mod, whichever is higher) each time the Hooded Pupil initiates this effect, and if they succeed, they become immune to further attempts for 1 hour.
Drink Blood: I'd remove the 'special:' and just make the "This ability may only be used..." part a part of the ability text. It's kind of underwhelming and needs to scale. What if any ability damage you dealt translated to self healing and/or removal of ability damage you've taken?
Add a spoiler box for comments and for changelog?
{table=Head]Category|Score
Originality|I was surprised enough that it wasn't undead that I had to check the monster entry. It stands out, albeit sort of warlockish.
Playability|Playable, sure, just not sure exactly what sort of monster I would apply this template to. I'm lost as to the role it would take in a group, as well.
Power|Seems a little underpowered. Needs to scale better.
Elegance|Need to do something about clutch of orcus as non-OGL material. Needs source listed, should probably have comments & changelog boxes on the post, too.
Flavor|I like that it's flavorful. Fits as a vampire's disciple.[/table]

Going to get to Psurlon and Ragewalker, just responding to Gorgon first...

Frog Dragon
2011-02-27, 01:26 PM
material weapons
Material weapons sounds like an awesome proficiency. The spiked chain is material! Gnome Quickrazor is material! Mercurial Kaorti Resin Fullblade is material! :smalltongue:

I think I'll start designing another yugoloth. Not posting it here until my backlog is in the approved list though, but as of now, my stuffs are just awaiting critique, so I can't do much to them.

Hyudra
2011-02-27, 01:26 PM
Material weapons sounds like an awesome proficiency. The spiked chain is material! Gnome Quickrazor is material! Mercurial Kaorti Resin Fullblade is material! :smalltongue:

I think I'll start designing another yugoloth. Not posting it here until my backlog is in the approved list though, but as of now, my stuffs are just awaiting critique, so I can't do much to them.

Smartass.

Fixed.

dsmiles
2011-02-27, 01:31 PM
Going to get to Psurlon and Ragewalker, just responding to Gorgon first...
No need to hurry on the Psurlon, I'm patient. It's one of those things that comes with being old. :smalltongue:

Frog Dragon
2011-02-27, 01:40 PM
Smartass.
I try.

As a sidenote, the opening post still links to ChumpLump's class template, even though you posted an updated one afterwards.

Hyudra
2011-02-27, 02:19 PM
Monstrous Spider (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10404448&postcount=542) Changes, February 27, 2011:
Web range increases with HD, now. +5'/increment per 5HD, 25' max range per 5HD.
Enzyme text simplified, as it couldn't decide what it meant to refer to. Necrosis damage remains, but it now deals 1 point of acid damage to foes who are immune to ability damage/poison.
Clarified stuff in Brood Mother. Removed +2 to save, put a 1/hour limit on uses. Let the Spider devour young for HP or web uses.
Removed decapitation from Razor Tangle. I loved the idea, but I'll be damned if I ever got the execution right. Replaced the decapitation with bonus hardness on webs.
Tweaked the last option in Spiderbite, with a table & wording clarification.
Under silent skirr, added 'entangled foes are muffled by the webs and are effectively silenced'.
Clarified the Arachnid's Bite mental damage.
Lurker's Mandibles: Entangled is something that can be worked around (you can escape) so this just adds a threat to it. Given it's bite attack only, and your bite is fairly controlled, leaving as is unless given a more solid argument otherwise.

Medusa (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=10343087#post10343087) Changes, February 27th, 2011:
Fixed changelog where changes were listed as taking place in 2010. Stupid Time. You think you make sense but you don't.
Viper's Fangs stance moved to Serpentine Stance III.
Clarified DCs. Darting serpent is circumstance, Viper's Fangs is competence, Force gaze is circumstance, chthonic domination is competence.
Clarified text under Chthonic Eye. Made 16HD bonus to it 'petrifaction is permanent.'
Clarified wording under Seductive Hiss, to make it clearer what the DC is and how it progresses

Goblins (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10446547&postcount=660), February 27th, 2011.
I think I'm going to move them to the homebrew project or move them while renovating them to pose the concept as a prestige class that you could enter from 1st level.

Front Page (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=10122995#post10122995), February 27th, 2011:
Removed old templates (they were ugly and had errors) and added a link to the post I made a few pages back.

Scio
2011-02-27, 02:30 PM
Oh! I know how to fix the "what if one gets left behind" issue!
Ok, so what you do is you should just add a line in "Left Behind" that says something like, "If one of the goblins is separated from the group for more than 48 hours, they wander off\die horribly and a new goblin takes his place in the group."
Making it a level 1 prestige class sounds great. When this is finished, I'm gonna make a group of goblins and call 'em Lock, Shock, and Barrel.:smalltongue:

Gorgondantess
2011-02-27, 02:50 PM
Gargoyle:
Only half con mod natural armor? Seriously? I'd expect 1.5x, if anything different from the norm.:smallconfused:
Give 'em intimidate as a class skill.
Wicked talons: 2 sets of natural weapons (as in a claw and a bite) or just 2 natural weapons? Could someone do 1 of 2 claws and one bite?
You have a lot of abilities with "body" in the name. This should be altered, as "body" abilities are usually specifically the base, well, body abilities.
Zealous carvings: that's effectively doubling bad saves. I'd either reduce it to 1 save or to something like 1/5th HD.
Hideous Visage: Ehhh... I'd make it a standard action. You can pump intimidate easily.
Reflective Scales: hopy **** this just became the best stealth class ever. You're effectively duplicating an 8th level spell (superior invisibility). Hell, if this blocks against stuff like true seeing even, then it's better than an 8th level spell.
Petrification: "plus one point for each five points of the target's natural armour. The creature struck gains one point of natural armour bonus for each point of Dex damage they have taken from this ability." Ummm... that's... kindof needless. Interesting, but I wouldn't do it.
Deluge Waterspout: closest unoccupied edge?
Anyways, it's pretty much better than a dragon's breath weapon at 14 HD. Less range, I suppose, but that's it- knocking prone is a good effect. I'd add the damage at a lower level- 9, maybe- and make it 1d6/3 HD, then up to 1d6/2 HD at 18 HD or so. Something like that.
Horrendous Visage: Too low DC. 5+ranks+cha mod would be a little better.
"If they fail the save they are immune to the gaze unless they leave the area and re-enter or the gaze is actively focused on them."
What?:smallconfused: Just use standard gaze wording. See marraenoloth. Beyond that, why would anyone choose shaken over frightened? Or, better yet, frightened over panicked?
Statuesque Perfection: Chiseled armaments or chiseled armoury?
Stone cold metabolism: Might want to just say "is considered an object for all intents and purposes". Something like that.
Otherwise: *thumbsup*

Psurlon: Why don't you check the formatting for 99% of our other monsters and try to follow that?
Worm body: Hyudra's probably stated this, but it should be more specific to psurlon.
Might want to copy standard spellcasting multiclassing rules. See vanilla mindflayer. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7947714&postcount=13) Also, it's rude to force people into something so specific: "manifesting class" would be better than "wilder".
Psionics: PLAs automatically are manifested at a level equal to the monster's HD.
Never, EVER give a XLA at an earlier level than an equivalent caster would learn it. You get PLAs like a telepath gets powers, then it had damn well better not get any 2nd level PLAs until at least level 3. Cloud mind & brain lock should wait until at least 3 HD, telekinetic thrust 5 HD, telekinetic maneuver & DD until 7 HD.
...And is this the most current psurlon? This is basic stuff that should've been covered with the first review. I'm going to stop here before I RAGEQUIT reviewing it for fear that it is. Because seriously, that pisses me off.

Hooded Pupil: I'ma let Hyudra take care of this, though I'll say that you should never, ever give "useless" ability scores. Such as wisdom on a class that doesn't use wisdom for anything.

Ragewalker:
Seriously? Full BAB. Or at least 3/4. Problem with what you have is that it cuts out the ragewalker from a lot of qualifications for feats or PrCs (Many, MANY of which are based on BAB) and I see no way you've made up the hit to attack bonus.
DR should be in a separate ability from the "body" ability.
IL is OK.
Mind of Rage is okay... so long as you give it full BAB.
Styptic armor: as there's pretty much no reason to ever use any armor but the grafted armor, just give it fast healing.
Weapon cloud: beginning at 2th level?
adjacent to the Ragewalker takes 1d4 damage
If it's going to start at 1d4, it should increase by d4's, or you should change it to start at 1d6 (just one more point of damage, no biggie).
Weapon's Cloud Fury: Scale the radius. Also, you have it at 8th level in the text and 6th level in the table.
Text/table error on weapon cloud.
"Creatures effected"
Affected. No biggie, pretty much everyone gets 'em confused.
Induce blood frenzy: ouch. So you're getting confusion on crack as a gaze attack? Jegus. Waaaaaay too powerful.
Repel Magic: define- likely as a spell turning?
Create Living Spell: ...Hm. Originally we were just going to go for a living spell cohort once the living spell monster class was finished. What you have here is... well, I suppose it works at 1/2 HD. Probably best to make it "cannot create a living spell of more than 1/2 HD, period", though. Just for sanity's sake. I could definitely see abuse there.
Otherwise... well, it's just a little bland. It has its gaze, it has its weapon cloud, and it has living spells. That's IT. Frankly, I prefer the previous iteration.:smallconfused:

Frog Dragon
2011-02-27, 03:07 PM
Never, EVER give a XLA at an earlier level than an equivalent caster would learn it. You get PLAs like a telepath gets powers, then it had damn well better not get any 2nd level PLAs until at least level 3. Cloud mind & brain lock should wait until at least 3 HD, telekinetic thrust 5 HD, telekinetic maneuver & DD until 7 HD.
...And is this the most current psurlon? This is basic stuff that should've been covered with the first review. I'm going to stop here before I RAGEQUIT reviewing it for fear that it is. Because seriously, that pisses me off.
...I really should have taken a closer look at the PLA:s.

Hyudra
2011-02-27, 03:18 PM
Psurlon: Why don't you check the formatting for 99% of our other monsters and try to follow that?
Worm body: Hyudra's probably stated this, but it should be more specific to psurlon.
Might want to copy standard spellcasting multiclassing rules. See vanilla mindflayer. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7947714&postcount=13) Also, it's rude to force people into something so specific: "manifesting class" would be better than "wilder".
Psionics: PLAs automatically are manifested at a level equal to the monster's HD.
Never, EVER give a XLA at an earlier level than an equivalent caster would learn it. You get PLAs like a telepath gets powers, then it had damn well better not get any 2nd level PLAs until at least level 3. Cloud mind & brain lock should wait until at least 3 HD, telekinetic thrust 5 HD, telekinetic maneuver & DD until 7 HD.
...And is this the most current psurlon? This is basic stuff that should've been covered with the first review. I'm going to stop here before I RAGEQUIT reviewing it for fear that it is. Because seriously, that pisses me off.

Go easy on the new guys, eh? You're coming across harsher than it deserves.

Scio
2011-02-27, 03:18 PM
What? No one wants to tell me what's wrong with the Ettercap? I'm sure there's something.

Hyudra
2011-02-27, 03:21 PM
What? No one wants to tell me what's wrong with the Ettercap? I'm sure there's something.

Ettercap was covered in a batch review, then you didn't change it for a while, thereby getting skipped over by another batch review. You've only made changes relatively recently.

It's not that nobody's spotted anything wrong with it, just that nobody's found the time to do a review (at least, one that would cover the Ettercap) since you made the changes.

Lizard Lord
2011-02-27, 03:36 PM
Reply to Hyudra's critique:

Hooded Pupil (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10449208&postcount=711)
Just a heads up, I reviewed this Hooded Pupil (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10449208&postcount=711). I think you may have posted it twice, see my post a half page up about reposting monsters. In any case, edit the first post rather than resubmitting, please.
Yea, not really sure how the repost happened, but I deleted the duplicate. The one you linked here should be the original.

Prerequisites are a little dry. Consider that prereqs are the group's first exposure/introduction to the monster class. You don't want it to be, like:

Player A: "Woah, you're a hooded pupil. When did that happen?"
Player B: "Meh. I sorta knew some general stuff.
Even something like a ritual to enter would be flavorful, and ideally would involve some challenge or investment on the part of the player. What is a hooded pupil, why would someone be taking a level in it? Try to create a flavorful parallel to the adoption of the template.
I suppose I should have added a prerequite requiring that the hooded pupil entered an apprentice ship with an intelligent undead.

"Skills Points at 1rst Level:" - should be Skill points at first level. Fixed.

Class skills seem alright. Use rope seems a little weird, but I can let that slide.Don't know where my head was at when I included use rope, so it is removed

"Proficiencies: The Hooded Pupil gains proficiency with the following Simple and Martial Weapons and light armor." - reword to 'The Hooded Pupil is proficient with simple weapons, martial weapons and light armor. Fixed

I went to look & noticed it was absent. I stress that you should state the source of the monster clearly on the entry. I tend to prefer:

Monster Name
[Picture]
|Picture|
[Picture]
Monster Class (or 'Template/Monster Prestige Class')
Sourcebook (ie. 'Heroes of Horror')

Fixed

Ability Score Increases: Try to cut it down to just two ability scores. We don't tend to go beyond that, especially for monsters that can wear armor, speak, cast spells, etc. (Stuff like griffons might get the two ability scores, but something like Githzerai wouldn't) I can remove the strength bonus.


Clutch of Orcus: It looks as though you more or less copied the ability from the spell text. Only it doesn't paralyze. This, I believe, goes against forum rules, at least in spirit. I'll clarify what I said before: I would recommend coming up with an ability that does something similar, with its own mechanics, or find something appropriate in non-copyrighted material. You could, if you wished to preserve flavor, give an option, like:

Heart Clutch: You may focus on your opponents, causing them harm as you manipulate their blood against them. Pick one of the following:
[spoiler][list] You Gain Clutch of Orcus (Libris Mortis, p.63) as a spell like ability, castable once a day per two HD.
Blood Font: You may concentrate your malign will on a foe, causing them to sweat blood and their wounds to bleed profusely. While you concentrate, your target foe is slowed as per the spell by the agony of the ordeal, and takes 1d3 damage for every two HD you have. Foes who are already damaged (that is, not at full health or over max health by way of temporary hp) take 1d6 damage per two HD for each round you concentrate, instead. Foes below half health take 1d8 damage per two HD each round you concentrate. Foes get a saving throw (DC 10 + ½ Hooded Pupil HD + Hooded Pupil wisdom mod or Hooded Pupil charisma mod, whichever is higher) each time the Hooded Pupil initiates this effect, and if they succeed, they become immune to further attempts for 1 hour. This looks good to me. Would you be offended if I used this example?

Drink Blood: I'd remove the 'special:' and just make the "This ability may only be used..." part a part of the ability text. It's kind of underwhelming and needs to scale. What if any ability damage you dealt translated to self healing and/or removal of ability damage you've taken?
Fixed. I'll have to think of how exactly the healing and removal of ability damage will work later.

Add a spoiler box for comments and for changelog? I'm confused. The version you linked already had both of those things.


Playability|Playable, sure, just not sure exactly what sort of monster I would apply this template to. I'm lost as to the role it would take in a group, as well.
This might be where my lack of ability stops me in my tracks, as I don't know how to resolve this.

And Changelog with updates: Changelog: Feb 25 2011:

Made the Hooded Pupil a level 1 class
Got rid of Bonus Skills and Bonus Feats

Feb 26 2011

Clarified text for Drink Blood.
Made Clutch of Orcus 1/day per 2 HD.
Removed Evil alignment from the prerequisites
Added 4 HD to the Prerequisites.
Fixed Clutch of Orcus so that you don't need the Libris Mortis and made it add HD to damage.

Feb 27 2011
Removed Strength bonus.
Added prerequisite requiring the Hooded Pupil is taught by an intelligent undead.
Fixed typo with skills.
Removed Use Rope from skill list.

Hyudra
2011-02-27, 03:51 PM
Yea, not really sure how the repost happened, but I deleted the duplicate. The one you linked here should be the original.

Good, good. We've had chaos in the past over that, so just want to hammer it in. Wondering where I can stick posting guidelines where people will come across it.


I suppose I should have added a prerequite requiring that the hooded pupil entered an apprentice ship with an intelligent undead.

That would be an interesting one. The trick would be adding some mechanical basis around it.


Don't know where my head was at when I included use rope, so it is removed

Hangman's nooses? Dunno.


This looks good to me. Would you be offended if I used this example?

I would not. You may want to give it uses per day though (though, see the points at the bottom of the page - you might also want to tweak it to make it more of a general/easy use tool like eldritch blast).


Fixed. I'll have to think of how exactly the healing and removal of ability damage will work later.

Alright. In that case, let me know when you've worked it out. I'll postpone critiquing until you have a more or less finished product.


I'm confused. The version you linked already had both of those things.

Ah, it may be that you copied Chumplump's template for monster classes. It's outdated and a little messy, and hides the changelog/comments in the spoiler. I must've missed it that way. I recently replaced the link to that template with a fresher one, because of that issue & others.


This might be where my lack of ability stops me in my tracks, as I don't know how to resolve this.

Good question. Hmm.

Ok. Well, a few ways to go about this. It largely involves mental exercises:
What I did with the basilisk was write a short story (not terribly well, but I wrote it) featuring the basilisk as part of an adventuring party. The idea here was to try and figure out a group dynamic and flavor that would fit the Basilisk interacting alongside others in combat, etc. Once I had that, I worked out the Basilisk to fit the role I'd envisioned.
You could also relate/compare the monster to another class. Is it roguish? More like a caster? Or a warlock? My inclination with the Hooded Pupil is that it's similar to a warlock, but it lacks the options. You take Hooded Pupil and get the equivalent of a channeled eldritch blast (clutch of orcus or blood font) and you get a preselected minor invocation (spider climb). You've got less skills, but (IIRC) more raw toughness by way of HD and natural armor. In general, you're maybe a little subpar to the warlock, given the lack of options, the lack of optimization tools (your abilities don't have feats & items that could modify/buff them like the warlock can pick up for eldritch blast) and the lack of further progression (you're always a 1 level dip prestige class/template).
So, with the above in mind, what can the Hooded Pupil offer to a group, in terms of damage, defenses, offensive tools, tactics, yadda, yadda, yadda, that I wouldn't pretty much get for taking a 1 level dip in warlock? I think that's where the role is lacking.

Scio
2011-02-27, 04:23 PM
Oh, ok. I just thought that no one noticed. That tends to happen to me quite a bit, y'see. ('O_O)

mootoall
2011-02-27, 05:57 PM
I'm working on the Unbodied, and I was wondering the following:

Its fluff says that it assumes various different apparent forms. So my question is whether or not I should give it a preset list of forms it can take (brain, glowing light, regal human, etc.) and various bonii it gains in those forms, or just allow it to take any form and not gain any mechanical bonii from that.

dsmiles
2011-02-27, 06:06 PM
Despite the rudeness displayed earlier, I have updated the Psurlon (yet again).

Gorgondantess
2011-02-27, 08:14 PM
Well, I apologize if I appeared rude. Though I'm still waiting for an answer to my question.

dsmiles
2011-02-27, 08:21 PM
Well, I apologize if I appeared rude. Though I'm still waiting for an answer to my question.I'm not one to hold a grudge, but yes, it was rather harsh. No hard feelings? :smallsmile:

At the time, yes, it was the most current version. It has since been updated, as you were the only one to look at it, at the time.

Gorgondantess
2011-02-27, 09:03 PM
I'm not one to hold a grudge, but yes, it was rather harsh. No hard feelings? :smallsmile:

At the time, yes, it was the most current version. It has since been updated, as you were the only one to look at it, at the time.

...Ah. I could've sworn Hyudra's reviewed it.

dsmiles
2011-02-27, 09:16 PM
...Ah. I could've sworn Hyudra's reviewed it.Not a thorough review as yet. Hyudra glanced at it. The only ones that really looked at it, prior to you, were (Phrenic Half-Swordsage) Frog Dragon, Kyuubi (once), and I think DiBastet looked at it...that's pretty much it. Then everybody started ranting about dragons and the ragewalker for a couple of pages.

The-Mage-King
2011-02-27, 09:28 PM
I'm working on the Unbodied, and I was wondering the following:

Its fluff says that it assumes various different apparent forms. So my question is whether or not I should give it a preset list of forms it can take (brain, glowing light, regal human, etc.) and various bonii it gains in those forms, or just allow it to take any form and not gain any mechanical bonii from that.

I would say the latter, because, well, that's how it's ability seems to read.

Necroticplague
2011-02-27, 09:50 PM
Phantom
Prestige/Template Monster Class
Monster Manual 5
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/MM5_Gallery/106324.jpg
Phantom:

Phantom Prerequisites
Race:Must not already be incorporeal
Special: Must have at least 6 HD
Special: Must undergo a ritual involving failing a Fort save to hunger, and then giving up that night's sleep in favor of trancing for 10 uninterrupted hours. This has none of the normal effects of sleep.

HD: D6
{table=head]Level|Bab|Fort|Reflex|Will|Feature
1|+0|+0|+2|+2|Phantom Body,Weakness,Incorporeal Movement,Phantom Defense
2|+1|+0|+3|+3|Phantom Strike,Incorporeal Juant
[/table]

Skill Points:4+int per level
Class Skills: Hide,Move Silently, Tumble, Balance,Search,Spot,Listen,Open Lock, Disable Device, Escape Artist

Phantom Body:Unlike most monster classes, a character that takes a level in phantom does not lose their racial traits. Their type remains unchanged, unless they are animals or vermin, in which case they become Magical Beast (Augmented Animal) or Magical Beast (Augmented Vermin), respectively. They also gain a deflection to their AC equal to their Charisma modifier or +1, whichever is higher.

Weakness (Ex):A phantom creature has a body that partially exists both corporeally, and incorporeally. As a result, weapons that can strike both its corporeal body and it's incorporeal body essentially hit a phantom's body twice. A phantom takes 50% extra damage from all attacks with the ghost touch enchantment.

Incorporeal Movement(Su):A phantom becomes capable of temporarily leaving his physical form behind while he moves in an ghostly form.While this ability is active, a phantom becomes incorporeal when moving as a move action.A phantom's equipment does not turn incorporeal with it. Completely mundane items cannot even be held by the phantom, and fall to the ground. Magic items can be held while incorporeal, but prevent the phantom from going through objects. They become corporeal again at the end of their move, and so must end their movement in a space they could legally occupy when corporeal.A phantom taking a double move must end each move action in a legal space, becoming briefly corporeal before beginning their second move action. A phantom may suppress or resume this ability at any time. Doing so is a move action that does not provoke Attacks of Opportunity. Incorporeal Movement does not apply to any movement except that from using the phantom's own move actions. A phantom does not become incorporeal during other actions that include movement, or during movement caused by an outside effect. If a phantom has the ability to take another kind of action during or in the middle of its move action, it remains incorporeal while taking that action.

Phantom Defense (Su):As a result of it's own incorporeal nature, a phantom becomes better at defending itself from attacks of other incorporeal creatures. A phantom’s armor bonus, deflection bonus, natural armor bonus, and shield bonus count toward its Armor Class, whether its attackers are incorporeal or not.

Phantom Strike (Ex): A phantom keeps a faint link to the physical world that allows it to still act when it keeps it's own body insubstantial. As a result, a phantom does not lose it's strength score while it is incorporeal, and can attack corporeal creatures as normal while incorporeal. It cannot however, initiate any of the following successfully, or use any abilities based of them:Trip,Bull-Rush,Disarm,Sunder,Sleight of hand Checks to steal items or move creatures. If a phantom has some other method of acting corporeally on the world normally (such as smearing its hand in ghostwall shellac, or having a ghost touch weapon) allows them to perform these actions as normal.

Incorporeal Jaunt (Su):At the pinnacle of it's transformation, a phantom becomes capable of moving between its corporeal and incorporeal self with but a moment's thought. A phantom can become incorporeal as a swift action. It can become corporeal again as a swift action or a standard action. A phantom's equipment does not turn incorporeal with it.Completely mundane items cannot even be held by the phantom, and fall to the ground. Magic items can be held while incorporeal, but prevent the phantom from going through objects.This ability can be used a number of minutes per day equal to half the phantom's highest base stat modifier (modifier without any any bonuses from magic items or enhancements). This time increases to base stat modifier at 11 HD, and the time limit is removed at 14 HD

Comments:
I meant this to just be class that made a character more useful while incorporeal, as opposed to being mostly unable to act upon the world at all. Incorporeability at-will is a relatively powerful ability, and this class gets it at 8hd. I figured it didn't really need any other abilities, considering all the benefits of being continuously incorporeal (invisible,inaudible,no track, no scent, phase through objects, 50% miss chance),combined with the ability to become corporeal if they need to.

Changelog:
February 28-March 1: Fixed some spelling and grammar errors, almost completely reworded Phantom Strike. Added more class skills, increased skill points per level. Added fluff to some of the abilities, and moved the deflection AC bonus to Phantom Body.

March 2:Made changes to and added fluff for Incorporeal Movement. Thanks goes to Psyborg. Added fluffy special requirement.

March 3:Went back and added fluff to the abilities I hadn't done so to already.

March 8: Made Incorporeal Jaunt scale with level and stats, so that Incorporeal Movement stays relevant for a little while. Also specified that equipment does not turn incorporeal with them under both Incorporeal Movement and Incorporeal Jaunt.

March 18:Lessened scaling of Incorporeal Jaunt, and specified what happened to equipment you couldn't carry while incorporeal.

Scio
2011-02-27, 10:08 PM
Phantom looks pretty cool, but that line about it being "Corporeal and incorporeal" made my brain hurt.

mootoall
2011-02-27, 10:28 PM
I would say the latter, because, well, that's how it's ability seems to read.

Okay. However, it will be an effective size category change, if they so choose, for space, AC and AB, though not for grapple, trip, etc. checks.

Hyudra
2011-02-28, 01:17 AM
Briarvex (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10000991&postcount=583)
"Skills Points at 1rst Level:" -> Skill Points at 1st Level or Skill Points at First Level: (Second is preferred).
Skill list, you do Skill (stat), Skill (stat), Skill (stat), then comes 'Knowledge (Natue)'. This is wrong because it's not listing a stat in the same format as the others, and because nature is misspelled.
"The Brairvex gains proficiency with ... "it's own Spiked Fist" -> its.
Taking 50% extra damage from the most common elemental damage type in the game is... pretty brutal. Sadly, it's not a good balancing point, because, in the same vein of favored enemies (though this is more 'unfavored enemies'), it leaves you powerful against some encoutners and vulnerable in others.
It might be a good idea to copy-paste text from the SRD about Unarmed Strike and Unarmed Strike progression into a spoiler for easy access.
It strikes me that you never really detail the Briarvex's fists. It's implied, but never stated outright. By which I mean that in Spiked Fist, you detail that it gets improved unarmed strike, and go into that, and then thorn burrow says that everything depends on you dealing damage with your spiked fist, which kind of refers to the above ability, but you never outright say "The Briarvex has spiked fists." I just go from one ability to the next and find myself feeling like there's missing text that should be drawing it all together.
And in the same/related vein, there's no flavor text beyond the bare minimum essentials. The class would feel a lot more whole if there was a sentence at the beginning of each ability describing what's going on. Again, implied, we can draw conclusions, but it would add a chunk of flavor text and make it more exciting to play.
Thorn burrow: I think it should allow some other way to remove thorns, because only 1 in 20 monsters you run up against are going to have Heal.
"When the Briarvex reaches 2nd level he may animate the plant life around." - there's a word missing at the end of that sentence. "He may animate the plant life around him"?
"This includes the air above him and the land beneath him" - I... don't get how this works. I'm a briarvex, there's a dragon flying at the same height as the rooftops of 5 story buildings, directly above me. I use entangle as a full round action, it reaches that high... dragon is entangled. What just happened? Again, this is where flavor text would help. That, or tweaking the ability.
Also, I note the very short duration. 1 round, unscaling. Is this intentional?
Can I not do a 'jack and the beanstalk' and climb into the sky by repeatedly using Entangle, creating the necessary vegetation 60' above me, climbing, repeating the process every round?
Powerful Build: According to the official FAQ, powerful build won't advance your unarmed strike. This hurts the Briarvex. It still progresses, mind you, but it's worth noting. It also makes level 3 kind of unexciting, in terms of advancement.
Powerful build: should state it's gained at 3rd.
Call Army: I tend to take issue with abilities that are environment specific. This is one capstone ability that simply doesn't offer anything if your campaign happens to involve a long stretch in a labyrinth, a dungeon, a jail, desert (no, not all deserts have cacti, many have little more than the occasional patch of moss no bigger than your palm) or winterlands.
And just too many uses. You'll literally have an army. Consider:

At level 6, you'll have 6HD. That's 24 uses a day. Each use offers six small, three medium or one large & 2 small/1 medium. With 24 uses a day, and 4 encounters a day, you've got enough to use the ability every round for 6 rounds in each combat.

At 12HD, you've got 48 uses a day. Each use grants 12 smalls, 6 mediums, 3 larges or 1 huge and 1 large. You've got enough uses that you can easily afford to, at any moment that danger might feasibly occur, pre-emptively cast animate objects.

Consider, also, a Briarvex who is using call army (Swift action - 2 small or 1 medium creature a round) and entangle (move action) every round. Enemies have to deal with both entangle and the presence of your minions, and your minion's threat ranges. Your minions, all the while, are easily capable of providing flanking bonuses. It's ridiculous battlefield control, especially considering you're not even using a standard action.

Heck, you can even do this in areas with no vegetation by using entangle to create vegetation (standard action) and animating that vegetation. Even if it only lasts 1 round, you're still entangling every foe and offering the impact of [your HD] allies on the battlefield, giving flanking bonuses, making attacks of opportunity, obstructing charges, yadda yadda.

It's too much. Needs to be scaled way way way back.
{table=Head]Category|Score
Originality|High marks. It fits, thorn burrow is interesting, it's a fitting plant thing.
Playability|I have to wonder. It's overpowered in forests and weaksauce in many other environments. This is pretty polarizing, playabilitywise. Add fire vulnerability and you can potentially get mauled.
Power|Passable, but see Playability. Also, call army is over the top, and
Elegance|Some inelegant bits here. Lack of clarity/elaboration in some abilities, some abuse potential.[/table]

Pandorym (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9943992&postcount=295)
The more I think on it, the more I feel the limited magic item slots really, really hold you back. It's a pretty huge portion of your power at high levels. Can I get a response/justification on the subject?
Skills look better.
"in whitch case you become native..." -> Spelling error, which. I do believe I pointed this one out before.
"increase your movement speeds by 10ft for every extra 1 power points expended" -> power point. No s.
"Oncer per day per 3 HD" -> spelling error, oncer. That's spelling error #2. I really did urge you to spellcheck. I'm going to make this a three strike thing, just to be nice.
@ Incorporeality - I have to wonder, isn't this gamebreaking? What's to stop you from acquiring some extrasensory means of detecting foes and then lurking beneath the floor or inside a wall/object, for all combats? I mean, even if you're only half-submerged into the floor/wall, you've got a 50% miss chance (incorporeality) and a 20% miss chance (concealment). Do this on the ceiling, and you're impossible to reach without flight or ranged weapons, and you've still got only a 40% chance to be hit.
2nd facet of the mind should scale.
Considering that it's the only thing you really get that level, the first half of moderate sign of binding is a bit underwhelming. I mean, consider how often you're in combat against summoned creatures. Now take into account how long combat tends to last... 3, 4 rounds at most? Summoned creatures have durations of 1 round per caster level... so at a minimum, 11 rounds. It's never going to come up in a game, barring really unusual circumstances. The second effect is ok, but again, it's fairly niche - how often are you up against a divine caster? Depends on the campaign, but... Once every level? Once every other level?
Psionic Leech - DC is too easy to beat, given it's a skill check and (I do believe) every character you'd want to use it against has concentration as a class skill.
On the flip side of the coin, Psionic Leech seems kinda powerful. I mean, double PP costs... what would your feeling be if you were a regular elf Psion in a level 13 adventuring party (consisting of swordsage, you, factotum and cleric) and I pit you against a BBEG with 15 levels in Pandorym, fourth encounter of the day?
Continual intellect fortress. This seems... rather potent. I mean, it's an 8th level defensive ability meant to last 1 round, and you have it 24/7. I point you again to the question above - are you ok with this, going against a Pandorym as a boss monster, playing as a psion?
What kind of action is binding hex?
"useable once per day per 8HD, with a Will DC equal to 10 + Cha Mod + HD/2. " -> Try not to use HD/2. Also, spelling error -> usable. I really, really wish you'd spellcheck.
Anathematic Sorcery: "[DC = 10 + HD/2 + Cha Mod)" -> don't use brackets, and especially don't use two different types of bracket to open/close.
"Cha Mod times per day, wheyou manifest a Psionic power" -> ok. Stopping here. This, and the bracket thing in anathemactic sorcery are along the lines of stuff that one should be able to catch just rereading their entry. I don't want to be offensive, but if you can't be bothered to check over your own work, I don't know why I should be.

Jovoc (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9955384&postcount=425)
Changelog is sparse. Are you deleting old info from the changelog every time you add something new?
I see you're sticking with the 1st level, 2nd level bits. I don't know that I was clear when I brought it up last, but please change it. It's visually distracting and even if you like doing it to keep better track of your own work-in-progress, you can delete it when you're done.
Cursed Wound is listed as such on the table, but is Cursed Wounds in the ability descriptions.
Cursed wound: A daze? That's a not-insignificant condition. I mean, that's making enemies miss a turn, while doing what you'd be doing anyways, and at high HD, you'll have enough uses that it won't require any strategic decisions about whether to use it. Consider that the War Troll gets pretty much the same thing, except that for the war troll, it's a 10th level ability (minimum 5 levels of troll, then 5 levels of war troll, to acquire)... and even then, it's easier to waste (you have to declare it before hitting, where Jovoc phrasing implies you can call it afterwards). And War Troll is a kind of problematic class even so. Needs tweaking to tone it down. Maybe by making it nauseate at lower levels (daze at higher) and making it just a little slower to acquire at higher levels. Something like:
Cursed Wound: As a free action, you may charge your next claw attack with raw pain, to leave foes doubled over in agony. Should you hit, the foe must make a fortitude save (DC 10 + ½ Jovoc HD + Jovoc Cha) or be nauseated for one round. On a failed attack, the use is spent regardless. Cursed Wound may be used once a day per HD or a number of times a day equal to the Jovoc's Cha mod, whichever is less. At 8HD, it causes foes to be dazed. At 16HD, it causes them to be stunned.
I note that there's no mention of growth anywhere. I remember it used to be in Jovoc body. Why the omission?
Punishment Strike: I must say, I really dislike per encounter abilities. I take it the per-encounter is derivative of my comment about how it was too many uses... But now it's, at low levels, 1 use per encounter for 3-5 encounters a day (4, usually)... so 3-5 uses a day at 3rd-7th levels, and 2 uses per encounter at 8th-11th levels, or 6-10... so we haven't changed matters much.
And the damage is still pretty damn high. 10th level, about 8 times a day, I can add 10 bonus damage to my attacks for one round. Assuming 2 attacks a round and the encounter setup I pose above, that's up to 200 bonus damage added on over the course of the adventuring day (2 attacks a round, 10 uses a day, 10 bonus damage on each hit).
Compare to the Paladin's smite, while not a great class feature, is just 3 uses a day at 10th level, granting ~10 bonus damage on 3 attacks only. That's a maximum of 30 bonus damage over the course of the day.
"Your claws are stained red from blood, whether its your blood or the enemies' you dont recall" - would reword to "whether it's your blood or the blood of your enemies, you do not recall." (Fixing "its", lack of comma, awkward "the enemies' ", dont)
And delete actually from the next sentence, it reads better.
Much clearer on the flavor text of the "I throw my blood at you". Good.
But delete the paragraph break between the end of the first sentence and "By sacrificing..." to make it one paragraph. It'll look neater.
"(Fort reduces to sickened)" - dont' put this in brackets, and make it a full sentence.
Retributive Aura: Beautiful. Much tidier, much more playable. Just beautiful.

Gargoyle (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9959382&postcount=443)
Shrink pic. The new link on the first post has an Image FAQ. I detail an easy way to resize pictures there.
That aside, I'll leave you to make the changes Gorgondantess recommended. Home stretch!

Vivisector (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10219990&postcount=129)
Skill list looks less lopsided. Good.
State sourcebook it is from. See how I did it with Troll (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10262043&postcount=191), just below the pic? It's tidy, it's clear.
I'd reword, just for clarity, under Scythe Hands, to "to ingest or regurgitate one or both rings requires a full round action."
"'Anything with a skeletal system can be Vivisected for Bones, but all Undead can ONLY be Vivisected for Bones. Slime is specific to Oozes, and the only thing you can take from an Ooze. Construct Essence is the only thing that can be harvested from a Construct, and can only be harvested from a Construct. ' - I'd just note which applies to what on the actual list, so the text above is cleaner." -> suggestion from last critique.
Alternately, have categories on the actual organ list. Like...
Any corporeal, non-undead, non-construct, non-ooze, non-elemental creature:

Heart: They gain Fast Healing equal to their HD/4 (Minimum 1).
Liver: They gain immunity to all poisons.
Lungs: They are treated as having the Run and Endurance feats for the duration of the bonus.
Spinal Cord: They gain Mage Hand as an SLA, useable once per round (Your Caster Level is equal to your HD).
Muscle: They gain a bonus to all STR based skill rolls equal to their HD/4 (Minimum 1).
Skin: They gain DR [Your HD/4]/Piercing
Bone: They gain DR [Your HD/4]/Bludgeoning
Blood: They can vomit up the blood as a 40ft breath weapon dealing 1d6 damage for every 2 HD the Vivisector has.
Brains: They gain a +[HD/4] insight bonus to all Reflex rolls, and INT based checks.
Feet: Their Land Speed increases by 30ft.
Appendix: They gain a Flaw, chosen by the DM (But no bonus feat).
Digestive Organs: The next bonus activated while this once is in effect lasts for twice as long as normal.
Eyes: They gain their HD as a bonus to all Spot Checks.
Hands: They gain Fine Manipulation.
Teeth: They gain a Secondary Bite Attack dealing 1d8 damage. The Vivisector's poison (See Poison Claws ability) can also be transmitted by the Vivisector's bite attack, as if it were striking the target with its claw attacks.
Corporeal Undead:

Bone: They gain DR [Your HD/4]/Bludgeoning
Ooze:

Slime: They gain DR [Your HD/4]/Slashing
Construct:

Construct Essence: They gain SR 11+The Vivisector's HD
On the organ list, you do the They/Your mixup. Also, don't use brackets. Web designers have stressed to me that, contrary to what you think, brackets don't make your work more readable or concise on the web, given how text tends to come together.
"At 2nd level, by scouting out the enemies biological weaknesses for a short while, the Vivisector can dismantle them with ease.
If a Vivisector" -> you've got an unnecessary new paragraph there.
"as well as Flat-Footing them." -> needs rewording. Flat footing isn't a term I've ever seen before.
"If the Vivisector gains the ability to make a death attack from another source
(Such ass " -> again, an unnecessary new paragraph there.
"(Such ass Assassin)" -> as.
Otherwise ok.

Razor Boar (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10227868&postcount=139)
Oink oink, sez the Razor Boar, Review me, Gorgon!

Remorhaz (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9980073&postcount=505), Gray Jester (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10051752&postcount=693), Flesh Golem (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10073494&postcount=714), Hellfire Wyrm (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10271903&postcount=254), Corrupted Creature (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10331050&postcount=365)
Have not been updated since previous critique(s) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=10437110#post10437110).
Flesh Golem being moved to abandoned list, as it's been untouched for well over a month (and a month is the cutoff point). Don't know why I didn't move it earlier.

Medusa (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10343087&postcount=418), Monstrous Spider (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10404448&postcount=542), Goblins (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10446547&postcount=660)
My own creatures.
Have been updated to reflect Gorgon's latest critiques.
Except Goblins, which I'm moving to the homebrew thread tomorrow (I was requested to leave them in place for Sunday, as someone expressed interest in testing them out in a game).

Black Dragon thru Phantom to come tomorrow.

Mystic Muse
2011-02-28, 01:50 AM
Okay Gorgon, I took a look through Senor Saguaro, and here are the only two things I was able to pick out.



1,000 Needles: At 4th level, the Saguaro Sentinel may as a swift action violently rub its arms against each other in a scissoring motion, spraying thorns everywhere. This ability is usable only once per day per 2 HD the Saguaro Sentinel has (rounded down), and in doing so it deals half thorns damage to itself (reduced by DR normally) as it gouges into itself with its own thorns in the process. It may choose one of two options: The Saguaro has DR x/piercing, and thorns deal piercing damage, so DR shouldn't apply here.

Now, for thorny grasp


take a penalty to dexterity equal to one half thorns damage (not to reduce the opponent to less than 1 dexterity) I was under the impression ability penalties were not able to reduce an ability score to less than one by their very nature. If I'm wrong, this is fine, but if not, the note in parentheses is redundant.

Other than that, it seems fine to me. I'd certainly play one were I in a position to, and I didn't have about 7 other games I need to keep track of.

That's all I noticed right now. If you'll excuse me, I'm going to keep watching this show about how horrible people can be to each other that I have to do for school.

Lizard Lord
2011-02-28, 02:49 AM
I've added Heart Clutch, making Blood Front 1/day per HD.

Been thinking about the Hooded Pupil's role, and I think I should give it spellcasting progression (thus making it's role as a spell caster with some warlock-ish abilities). Would a spellcaster be interested in the Hooded Pupil's abilities?

Frog Dragon
2011-02-28, 08:15 AM
Critique for the Phantom.

Phantom What book is this critter from? In addition, there's a template (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10450355&postcount=742) for monsters in this project. Please use it. Also, the monster name should be big.


http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/MM5_Gallery/106324.jpg

Centering is unnecessary. Again, template.
Prerequisites
Race:Must not already be incorporeal
Special: Must have at least 6 HD Level-wise, this should be ok, since the base Ghost Template can be taken in a level 6 game. However, how do you become a phantom, RP-wise? As is, you're all "I want to be a ghost-thingy", and boom, now you are. There should be something more. As a sidenote, the template includes bolding and other similar formatting, which makes things much easier to read.

HD: D6
{table=head]Level|Bab|Fort|Reflex|Will|Feature
1|+0|+0|+1|+1|Phantom Body,Weakness,Incorporeal Movement,Phantom Defense
2|+1|+1|+2|+2|Phantom Strike,Incorporeal Juant
[/table] What's with the saves? None of them make sense for either one of the progressions. Furthermore, it can't even be the medium progression sometimes used (which I don't think we want here), because the Fort saves are different from the other two, but it's still not a proper poor save. Just use the normal saves.

Skill Points:2+int per level
Class Skills: Hide,Move Silently, Tumble, Balance Only 4 class skills? I don't like this. Even a moderate Int score, or just a base race of human forces you to cross-class.

Phantom Body:Unlike most monster classes, a character that takes a level in phantom does not lose their racial traits. Their type remains unchanged, unless they are animals or vermin, in which case they become Magical Beast (Augmented Animal) or Magical Beast (Augmented Vermin), respectively. I don't know if there's a precedent for Magical Beast or Humanoid ghost-thingies, because I don't even know where the original template is from, but I'm pretty sure this thing should be undead.

Weakness (Ex):A phantom takes 50% extra damage from all attacks with the ghost touch enchantment. What is the reasoning behind this?

Incorporeal Movement(Su):When a phantom uses a move action to move , the phantom become incorporeal during the movement. However, the phantom becomes material after each move. Thus, if the phantom performs a double move, the phantom must end their first move in a space where they can re-manifest their physical body before becoming incorporeal again for the second part of your move.This ability can be activated or suppressed as a move action. The wording is awkward. Again, bold the ability names.

Phantom Defense (Su): A phantom’s armor bonus, deflection bonus, natural armor bonus, and shield bonus count toward its Armor Class, whether it or its attackers are incorporeal or corporeal. Poorly worded again. It should be "whether or not its attackers are incorporeal."

Phantom Strike (Ex): For the purpose of resolving spells, melee attacks, ranged attacks, and other attacks that require only momentary contact to deal damage or have their effects, a phantom is considered to be both incorporeal and corporeal when it is incorporeal. Thus, the phantom receives its normal Strength bonus on attack rolls and damage rolls, and it can use material components to cast its spells. The phantom cannot use abilities that require extended contact with the target and so cannot perform any of the following combat actions against corporeal targets while incorporeal (additional actions the phantom may not be able take are up to DM,):
Grapple
Trip
Bull-Rush
Sleight of Hand
Swallow Whole
Constrict For starters, you need to establish a clearer rule of thumb for what works and what does. As is, it's kind of "Meh, I'll let the players figure it out". There needs to be clear RAW, especially when the stuff left for the DM isn't probably going be very rare in-game.

Incorporeal Jaunt (Su): A phantom can become incorporeal as a swift action. It can become corporeal again as a swift action or a standard action. Faster incorporeality. Yay.
In general, this thing is just a mess of defensive/mobility abilities, and not very interesting ones at that. In addition, it needs to be better formatted, and Cthulhu still demands spellcheck. There is no mention anywhere about the original critter or its source, which left me kinda stumped reviewing. I had no clue where the original was from. Wherever it is from, I get the feeling you just slapped in some abilities from there and then tacked on incorporeal move, and generally just adapted the gross qualities of the creature, which is really not how we do things here. Finally, I can't see who'd want this. It has two good saves, and some decent mobility abilities, but godawful skills, making it bad for rogues, while warriors take a BAB and HP hit. Casters and manifesters get no casting from this. In general, I recommend you analyze the newer monsters in the approved list, like the Basilisk by Hyudra (remember, Oslecamo era critters are not models for good design).

Edit: About the Black Dragon. I've considered going VIVA LA REVOLUCIÓN and revamping the whole thing out of Oslecamo's template. I'm not really sure if I should do this, and even if I do, I will not be making similar versions of any of the older dragons, because I still have yugoloths. Yay or Nay?

mootoall
2011-02-28, 09:39 AM
I don't really think it's worth it to gain essentially a (weak) damage dealing spell and spiderclimb for a loss in caster level. A warlock, though, might appreciate it.

The Winter King
2011-02-28, 09:50 AM
Responses in Blue



Jovoc (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9955384&postcount=425)
Changelog is sparse. Are you deleting old info from the changelog every time you add something new?
I see you're sticking with the 1st level, 2nd level bits. I don't know that I was clear when I brought it up last, but please change it. It's visually distracting and even if you like doing it to keep better track of your own work-in-progress, you can delete it when you're done.
Ok done

Cursed Wound is listed as such on the table, but is Cursed Wounds in the ability descriptions.
Oops...

Cursed wound: A daze? That's a not-insignificant condition. I mean, that's making enemies miss a turn, while doing what you'd be doing anyways, and at high HD, you'll have enough uses that it won't require any strategic decisions about whether to use it. Consider that the War Troll gets pretty much the same thing, except that for the war troll, it's a 10th level ability (minimum 5 levels of troll, then 5 levels of war troll, to acquire)... and even then, it's easier to waste (you have to declare it before hitting, where Jovoc phrasing implies you can call it afterwards). And War Troll is a kind of problematic class even so. Needs tweaking to tone it down. Maybe by making it nauseate at lower levels (daze at higher) and making it just a little slower to acquire at higher levels. Something like:
Cursed Wound: As a free action, you may charge your next claw attack with raw pain, to leave foes doubled over in agony. Should you hit, the foe must make a fortitude save (DC 10 + ½ Jovoc HD + Jovoc Cha) or be nauseated for one round. On a failed attack, the use is spent regardless. Cursed Wound may be used once a day per HD or a number of times a day equal to the Jovoc's Cha mod, whichever is less. At 8HD, it causes foes to be dazed. At 16HD, it causes them to be stunned.
I don't understand your problem with this ability. The Monk, a class often called the worst class, gets the ability to stun people in much the same matter, with the same number of uses per day. Also Stun is better than Daze, and the Monk's Stunning Fist has more support in feats and items. But I like what you did with the ability so I am gonna use it minus the charisma limiter.

I note that there's no mention of growth anywhere. I remember it used to be in Jovoc body. Why the omission?
I didnt really see a point to it, It is more beneficial to stay Small

Punishment Strike: I must say, I really dislike per encounter abilities. I take it the per-encounter is derivative of my comment about how it was too many uses... But now it's, at low levels, 1 use per encounter for 3-5 encounters a day (4, usually)... so 3-5 uses a day at 3rd-7th levels, and 2 uses per encounter at 8th-11th levels, or 6-10... so we haven't changed matters much.
Honestly, That was the idea

And the damage is still pretty damn high. 10th level, about 8 times a day, I can add 10 bonus damage to my attacks for one round. Assuming 2 attacks a round and the encounter setup I pose above, that's up to 200 bonus damage added on over the course of the adventuring day (2 attacks a round, 10 uses a day, 10 bonus damage on each hit).
Compare to the Paladin's smite, while not a great class feature, is just 3 uses a day at 10th level, granting ~10 bonus damage on 3 attacks only. That's a maximum of 30 bonus damage over the course of the day.
True but note that you can only assume two, 3 with rapid strike, attacks because it can only be done with his claws. Oh I forgot to specify that, damn:smallredface:.

"Your claws are stained red from blood, whether its your blood or the enemies' you dont recall" - would reword to "whether it's your blood or the blood of your enemies, you do not recall." (Fixing "its", lack of comma, awkward "the enemies' ", dont)
And delete actually from the next sentence, it reads better.
K

Much clearer on the flavor text of the "I throw my blood at you". Good.
Thanks

But delete the paragraph break between the end of the first sentence and "By sacrificing..." to make it one paragraph. It'll look neater.
"(Fort reduces to sickened)" - dont' put this in brackets, and make it a full sentence.
K
Retributive Aura: Beautiful. Much tidier, much more playable. Just beautiful.
And Thank you again

Necroticplague
2011-02-28, 10:13 AM
Critique for the Phantom.

There is no mention anywhere about the original critter or its source, which left me kinda stumped reviewing. I had no clue where the original was from.

Based on the phantom template from monster manual 5.

Frog Dragon
2011-02-28, 10:34 AM
Then my comment about creature type doesn't stand. Everything else does though.

Hyudra
2011-02-28, 10:50 AM
I don't understand your problem with this ability. The Monk, a class often called the worst class, gets the ability to stun people in much the same matter, with the same number of uses per day. Also Stun is better than Daze, and the Monk's Stunning Fist has more support in feats and items. But I like what you did with the ability so I am gonna use it minus the charisma limiter.

The flaws of the monk class aren't to do with stunning fist, but just overall class anti-synergy and built in drawbacks. Monk is an attacker, but has less than full BAB. Monk class emphasizes mobility, but needs a full round action to do flurry of blows, which requires standing still. Monk class emphasizes fists and punching foes in the face, but fists are a pain in the arse to boost with magical enhancement and the like. The list goes on.

And there was the issue where the phrasing of the ability strongly implied that one could attack, see if it hit, and then force the saving throw thereafter. Which makes it considerably better than stunning fist (where attacks can be 'wasted', as it were) whether you've got 1 use a day or 15.

And just touching on Daze - while Stun is better from a debuff standpoint, daze is arguably more consistent. That is, RAW, it works against constructs, oozes, undead, and plants. (In fact, with this in mind, you may want to alter the text to say 'at 16HD, you may stun them instead'). That, and you've got it on the chassis of a monster class that can make two claw attacks at a time at early levels. 2nd level, you've saved both uses, you fight the end-of-story-arc-boss, charge in the first round, make two claw attacks, force two saves vs. daze. If you succeed, boss loses a turn. Encounter practically won.

But really, my complaint about the ability (and in the same vein, about Punishment Strike) wasn't so much that they were overpowered (I still think punishment strike is too many uses with too much of a damage bonus) as the fact that that, at mid levels, they're not really active abilities. Let me explain:

Active abilities are the ones you have to think about using. On a simpler level, they're abilities that you choose to use. Smite is an active ability. You declare, "I'm going to smite" and then smash a grave robber's face through the wall, say something about your god and righteousness and go on with your day.

Passive abilities are the ones that are always on. The Paladin's Aura of Courage is one such ability. You hit the required level, and you're never afraid again. No thinking necessary.

So, with that in mind, what is the following, do you think?
Starting at sixth level, a number of times a day equal to her HD multiplied by her Str mod, the Ogre Mom may use Smother as a free action, augmenting her attack to deal 2d6 nonlethal damage in addition to any other damage dealt.
It looks sort of active, right? I mean, it's something you declare to the DM, right? But at the end of the day, assuming you've got a decent Str mod (which is implied) you've got so many uses that you probably won't run out if you tried, and it's a free action, so there's no thought process or "Will I use this or will I use that?" consideration going on. The end result is that the ability is passive. It might as well be a flat "You deal 2d6 nonlethal damage on every attack."

And if the action required a swift action rather than a free one, but the class had no other uses for swift actions, then it's still arguably a very passive ability, because again, there's no consideration of "Will I use this or will I use that?" -- That might change depending on what magic items or other class levels one took, but the general issue is still there.
So some of the complaint is along the lines of "At mid levels, it remains very passive as a class". Getting back to the monk comparison - that's ok for the monk with stunning fist, because the monk does have flurry of blows at low levels. For the Jovoc, there's still this underlying, passive, somewhat unexciting/nonstrategic playstyle. I think that's what's turning me off.

But ok. I won't push the issue, and you make a good point on monk's unarmed strike damage. Just give it some consideration.

Lizard Lord
2011-02-28, 02:13 PM
I don't really think it's worth it to gain essentially a (weak) damage dealing spell and spiderclimb for a loss in caster level. A warlock, though, might appreciate it.

You must have misunderstood the question (and after rereading it, I don't blame you). I was thinking of making it so that a spellcaster wouldn't miss a spell progression with the Hooded Pupil and give the Hooded Pupil the role of a spellcaster. I would like to know if that would be worth it.

mootoall
2011-02-28, 06:42 PM
You must have misunderstood the question (and after rereading it, I don't blame you). I was thinking of making it so that a spellcaster wouldn't miss a spell progression with the Hooded Pupil and give the Hooded Pupil the role of a spellcaster. I would like to know if that would be worth it.

Oh. No, I don't think that advancing spell progression is a very Hooded Pupil-ish ability. I mean, it's the pupil of an intelligent undead creature, and I'm not sure how many of those cast spells. Although it is a student of necromancy ... Perhaps you could give it different abilities base off what kind of undead it was tutored under? Fluffy, and a good active ability. Perhaps Clutch of Orcus (or whatever you have) could be just one of those?

dsmiles
2011-02-28, 06:52 PM
Psurlon (v6.0) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10449916&postcount=735)

Updated.

mootoall
2011-02-28, 06:56 PM
Psurlon (v6.0) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10449916&postcount=735)

Updated.

Why did you change it to seven levels? The CR of the Elder one is eight, and the average is five ...

dsmiles
2011-02-28, 07:30 PM
Telekinetic Maneuver is kind of pivotal to the whole "Ginormous Telekinetic Worm" thing, and I was apprised that PLA's may only come at the same level a normal manifester would get them at. The choice was between a less than proficient telekinetic of 5 levels or a proficient telekinetic of 7 levels. Thus, 7 level Psurlon. I stand by my choice.

Psyborg
2011-02-28, 07:43 PM
So I’ve been thinking, as much as I love the stuff that comes out of this project, I really ought to participate. So I started looking around for a low-CR creature or template for my first attempt. Being away from books the bulk of the time, I decided I should work on something that I can find online.

A couple hours of poking through Realms Help later, I came across a template I’ve used before (on a character’s mount, as it happened, which is probably the only reason it didn’t prove notably unbalancing): Greenbound Creature. And at a paltry CR +2, it monster-class-ifying it should be a fairly small, hopefully simple job, right?

Wrong.

It’s CR +2, but it’s LA +8, which is a huge difference. And close examination showed it to be ridiculously overpowered for its CR. The Vorpal Tribble’s CR calculator (see spoiler in this post (”http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=187046”)) works out as follows:#1: Has to do with hit points. It’s a template, so no hit points to evaluate.
#2: Add 1 for every 5 points above 10 that its AC is; subtract 1 for every 5 below.
Natural Armor +6: 1 point.
#3: Add 1 for every special attack (+2 to +5 or more if it got a decent number of spells in its spell-like abilities.
SLAs: entangle, pass without trace, speak with plants at-will; wall of thorns 1/day. +2 points (3).
#4: Add 1 for each quality it has, unless you deem it worthy of more. Add 1 for each resistance and 10 points of DR it has, and 2 for each immunity. Subtract 1 for each vulnerability.
DR 10/magic and slashing: +1 (4)
Natural weapons count as magic for overcoming damage reduction: +1 (5)
Fast Healing 3: +1 (6)
Grapple Bonus: +1 (7)
Resist Cold: +1 (8)
Resist Electricity: +1 (9)
Tremorsense: +2 (11)
plus Plant Type traits:
Low-Light Vision: +1 (12)
Immunity to Mind-Affecting: +2 (14)
Immunity to Crits & Precision Damage: +2 (16)
Immunity to Poison, Sleep, Paralysis, Polymorph, and Stunning: As these are relatively minor immunities compared to immunity to mind-affecting, crits, or an energy type, let’s call them +1 point each. +5 (21)
Sleepless: +1 (22)
plus Skill bonus:
+16 racial bonus on Hide and Move Silently in forested areas: As a _huge_ bonus to two very useful skills, even given the limited usage, I think this qualifies as a +2-point bonus. +2 (24).
#5: Add 1 for every two bonus feats it has. Which is none.
#6: Divide total by 3. This should be its rough CR.
24 / 3 = 8.Coming up with a rough answer of CR +8. So- even not counting its total +16 of ability score adjustments or its natural attack, the Greenbound Creature template’s estimated “true” CR clocks in at about the same level as its given Level Adjustment.

Obviously, this was not going to be as simple as I’d hoped. On the other hand, I do like the template, and who doesn’t want to be able to play a walking shrubbery or a topiary golem? (Hmm, remind me to request “Half-Topiary Golem” over at the half-golem thread... :smallbiggrin: )

So here’s what I’m doing: “Greenbound Creature” is going to be a two-level prestige monster class, aimed at natural monsters and nature-oriented characters of at least 5HD looking for increased survivability with only a slight delay in advancement of their primary focus. While the arrangement is still uncertain, I’m planning on giving 25% Fortification, immunity to enchantment spells and effects, Mettle, and resistance to one non-Fire energy type of their choice. All of which are passive abilities, I know, so here’s the other thing: They get to pick one of a short list of plant symbionts (Climbing Rose, Deadly Nightshade, Ivy, Oak, Sunflower, Moonflower, Hazel, and Mistletoe- possibly more if I get ideas for them, but I think eight choices is plenty to start off with, even if Sunflower and Moonflower are near-perfect opposites.) The symbiont gives them some active abilities and/or SLAs that scale with HD, plus speak with plants at-will. Characters are still likely to take this class for primarily defensive purposes, but the symbiont powers should add some useful utility effects to ensure the levels don’t end up feeling like a waste to the player.

The symbiont approach lets me include a greater breadth of plant-y abilities, without the class getting overpowered for a two-level dip. It’s also the key to the “second half” of the project- actually becoming a plant.

“Greenbound Paragon” is going to be a three-level prestige monster class for people who’ve completed Greenbound Creature and have minimum 12 HD. It adds some cool stuff to your symbiont abilities, and at the third and final level, your merge with your symbiont, gaining the Plant type and most of the goodies appertaining thereunto.

Sound good?

Oh yeah, and one more thing: I’m having serious difficulty locating images for these classes. College internet filtering makes image-searching a pain in the butt. Any help would be very much appreciated.

Classes to follow in my next post, sometime in the next...hour? EDIT: Day.

Hyudra
2011-02-28, 09:31 PM
Black Dragon (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10246297&postcount=149)
A proposal, partially in response to your PM. You try your hand at renovating the black dragon without Oslecamo's methodology, and I'll let grammar/spelling mistakes slide for the first few critiques (at least, until you and I decide we like your version and want to finish it), so you can focus on getting abilities on the page & getting a general kind of balance working. Sound good? Just experiment, be creative.

Aboleth (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10367328&postcount=473&highlight=it%27s)
I notice the "it's" errors still prevalent throughout. For your convenience, I've used the forum highlighter to highlight every instance of the word (and a half) "it's" in the text. Click the link at the top of this list to see, it makes it bold & brown. Every case except the one at the start of Aboleth Body, I do believe, is erroneous and should be its.
Since I can only assume you're only partway through the changes, I'll postpone my critique of the Aboleth until next time. Keep it up.

Phase Wasp (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10399951&postcount=524)
You've got an ability outside the spoiler there.
I really like Killer Bee.
That said, you've still got the issue of Phase Wasps at level 2 having huge hide checks (5 ranks, +8 for tiny size, +5 for dex = a +18 on hide), leaving it predominantly as an ambush based class, like practically every other tiny creature in this project. What if Killer Bee was a toggled ability or stance, with a built in drawback that the violently buzzing, darting insect can't hide?
The 3HD benefit should probably be restricted to 5' of movement. If you feel it needs more gravy to make it appealing and interesting, consider allowing the bee to make two AoOs in the doing, provided it has the ability (ie. combat reflexes).
You offer two benefits at 3HD, killer bee upgrade and phase powers upgrade. Consider spacing them out more, so PCs who've invested in the class see a more broad, general benefit (rather than a bunch of stuff at levels 1 & 2, two boosts at 3HD, then nothing until 16). You could give killer bee another upgrade, allowing it to move the full distance alongside enemies, at 10th or 12th, to just flesh it out a bit more.
Buzz Song: "friendly creatures that can hear the Buzz Song gain a +1 morale bonus on skill checks, attack and damage rolls, and saving throws." Too many "and"s
HP & AC. It's a little too tough (tougher than, say, a griffon), between d8 HD, natural armor from con and tiny size. Consider shrinking the HD, lowering the natural armor to 1 + 1 per 2 points of con mod and giving it another point of dex at 2nd level. So it's not quite so tough, hard to hit and brutish. It should still do quite nicely for AC and be hard to hit, but that's now more dependent on dexterity, and leaves it vulnerable when flatfooted.
It works. It stands out, I really do like killer bee, and it's got a very solid identity as "harassment", just some tweaks to be made to deal with the still-present hide thing, the balance the smoothness of progression and the "I can't escape this damned bee that moves every time I do and that I can't hit!"

Violet Fungus (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10400122&postcount=526)
Level one looks better.
Poison looks borked though. It's not explained well enough, and RAW, you've got each Violet Fungus dealing 2 tentacle attacks, each delivering 1d4/1d6 Str damage and 1d3/1d4 Con damage a hit. That's... quite a lot.
Given that you've got two tentacles that can hit each round, starting from level one, I'd suggest something like a:
1d3/1d4
1d4/1d4
1d4/1d6
1d6/1d6
1d6/1d8
1d8/1d8
(And so on) kind of advancement, with less advancement for the con damage. It's not as much as the spider, but you're delivering two potential attacks a round, so enemies are going to suffer.
Fungal Diversity:
"Creatures grappled by the Fungus have to save against the poison every two rounds." - clarify. Assuming I get your meaning, I'd reword to say you speed up the onset of secondary saves by a set number of rounds.
"When a living creature grappled by the Violet Fungus save against the poison, they have to make another Fortitude save, DC 10+1/2HD+Con, or take 1 Con damage on top of any poison damage, as the tentacles eat away at the creature." - bolded bit. It seems to imply that when they succeed on the save, they have to make an additional save. Why not just say you add +1 con damage to whatever initial damage your poison deals?
"heals the Fungus by an amount equal to its HD" - whose? The victims or the fungus'?
"If the Fungus has Rapid Poison, the period between the normal secondary damage and this new damage changes to the time between primary and secondary damage." - this is really confusing. It isn't intuitive in the slightest.
It's kind of inconvenient to stress how much the fungus has to do to survive. What if, instead of the Fungus player feeling like she's in constant peril of starvation, you just stressed the inherent benefits instead?
Tough Fungus requires itself.
Capturing Fungus is a bit too much. Consider that at 10th level you could be dealing 1d6 Str damage, 1d4 Dex damage and 1d4 Con damage, and then 1d8 Str, 1d6 Dex and 1d6 Con damage the very next round. That's an average of 8 Str damage, 6 Dex damage and 6 Con damage. A little over the top, when you're doing that with both tentacles.
Paralysed -> Paralyzed. :smallwink:
Overall, much better at giving it a role (poisoner/debuffer), but a few tweaks still needed. Poison just seems to ramp up a touch too well, with the two types of ability damage together.

Saguaro Sentinel (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10405090&postcount=545)
Just a suggestion - it's kind of rude to link directly to someone else's image (I notice you just copied the URL directly from WotC's site) - I might suggest uploading on tinypic, imgshack or photobucket. Added benefit that you aren't as liable to have the image disappear abruptly (at least with Tinypic).
Looks pretty good. Went over your changelog, checked the text, saw nothing worth typing up in this post. Adding to the list.

Chuul (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10414321&postcount=585)
Comments: "Not Quite Finished." - delaying my critique til next time then.

Hooded Pupil (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10449208&postcount=711)
After doing a whole bunch of classes with varying degrees of quality in this particular department, let me say I do like your changelog. I can't give it an A+ because it doesn't go into a lot of detail, but it's a definite B+. Very clear, very detailed.
In the table, try to list the ability score bonuses last. It's how 95% of the monsters here do things. So it'd be "Hooded Body, Resistance to Cold, Spider Climb, Heart Clutch, Drink Blood, +1 Wisdom, +1 Charisma"
Also, the list of abilities is a little long in the table. Consider folding several abilities into category. So you might have 'Dark Talents' as an ability containing both Drink Blood (always granted) and Heart Clutch (pick one of the two, or three, etc, if you decide to add more). Just to tidy things up and draw the class together in concept(s).
Let it be said that I do really like Mootoall's suggestion regarding a list of abilities to represent talents granted from different undead masters. It's smart, it's flavorful, it's fitting and it helps you work through the role issues.
Looking really good, just need to figure our way through the role thing, and maybe give it a little boost in power.. If asked, I can try to answer any questions or offer feedback on the subject (for now, just focusing on getting these critiques done).

Psurlon (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10449916&postcount=735)
Alright. Let's see...
CR doesn't match the max level in the class. This is curious, since standard policy is to match the two. To resolve this, I see two options:
Scaling benefits for telekinetic powers. That is, if you take the 5th level in the class, you get something like, "At 7HD, your telekinetic blast improves further, giving you the ability to deal splash damage" and so on.
Or just build the class as an elder Psurlon, so that those who want to be a regular psurlon just stop before taking the full set of levels, and those who want to be elder psurlons take the eight levels total.
Can you perhaps crop the image to get rid of the crummy text at the bottom? If no, ask and I can do it.
And as I said to Gorgondantess, above, it's bad manners to link directly to where images are hosted on others' sites. Consider uploading to tinypic, imgshack, photobucket (the first being my preference for the last year and a half).
Why is Lords of Madness green on the source listing? It's kind of distracting, visually. (Are you maybe getting the impression I'm nitpicky?)
As I said regarding the hooded pupil, in doing your table layout, stick attribute bonuses last in the order of things. No need for brackets. So it'd look like... (skipping saves, BAB, etc):


{table=head]Level|
Special

1st|Worm Body, Inertial Armor, Immunities, , Telekinetic Blast, Telepathy, Cha +1
2nd| Blindsight, Combat Manifestation, Int +1, Cha +1
3rd| Damage Reduction, Psionics (Brain Lock, Cloud Mind, Read Thoughts), Int +1, Cha +1
4th| Improved Telekinetic Blast, Power Resistance, Int +1, Cha +1
5th| Telekinetic Thrust, Int +1, Cha +1
6th| Narrow Mind, Int +1, Cha +1
7th| Telekinetic Burst, Psionic Dimension Door, Telekinetic Maneuver[/table]
Skills look good.
Rather than a flat +4 to escape artist, consider a bonus equal to ½ the Psurlon's HD. Scaling.
Immunities can be covered in Psurlon body in the same way that elf immunities are covered in the elf racial abilities.
Telekinetic Blast: It seems like a shame to me that you've got something telekinetic, but no pushing/pulling/shoving going on. Just speaking for myself, I'd love to see an option where you'd do half the damage but move the enemy.
Seems kinda confusing/roundabout to say, as you outline what powers are available, that it has uses equal to its manifester level, only to then state, a few lines down, that it has a manifester level equal to its HD. Why not say it can use the ability once a day per HD, or once a day per two HD?
I'm afraid psionics tend to be outside of my purview. I've only played in a small handful of games with Psionics, and haven't DMed any, so my experience is limited to what my party members have done. That said, interpreting this class as though the psionic powers were equivalent level spells, it seems fairly solid. That said, my concerns are:
The fact that it counts its class levels as wilder levels for the purposes of powers known and max PP spent. If someone said to me, "This class gets a steady influx of SLAs, and if you take a level in wizard, it gets spells per day and spells known equal to its monster class levels + wizard levels", I'd raise an eyebrow at the degree of power we were talking about. Get what I mean? That said, I freely admit I may be interpreting that wrong.
The bonus PP and the augmenting of psionic powers. From what Gorgon said and from what I'm reading in the SRD, powers are automatically augmented. So the bonus PP you're getting are... to spend on the additional augmentations you list (or your telekinetic buffs/additional targets?) Is that right? Or are those artificially augmented as well? Clarify the matter (for me, if I'm being a dolt, and/or in the text, if it's just not clear).

Phantom (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=10461724#post10461724)
Don't center the image. Looks really terribad on some monitor setups (mine included), and means the eye doesn't flow from text to image and back to the text.
Convention is to spoiler everything below the image, to keep things tidy.
In fact, I strongly, strongly recommend you check out this link (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10450355&postcount=742), since it gives you a good way to format your post, and clues about our general goals, objectives, methods, etc.
Prerequisites are really dull. Prereqs should be a player's introduction to the class, and should involve taking that step to adopting that template. So it shouldn't be:

Player A: "Hey, you're incorporeal now. How'd that happen?"
Player B: "Dunno, I got my 6th HD?"
Try to come up with something creative, a little more challenging, etc.
Skills: Undead never get class skills, in this project. The link I gave you, above, says why in 'design guidelines for monsters, a FAQ'
In the ability descriptions, state what level the ability is gained. Like, "at third level, the Phantom gains the ability to..."
The class is kind of boring. Everything has to do with incorporeality, and abilities overlap/overwrite one another. There's no active abilities, either.
Plus incorporeality at 8HD is pretty powerful. Relatively few enemies have a built-in way of dealing with it, forcing a DM to make up challenges to deal with you.
So that said, needs something more exciting and post format needs a lot of work (again, see link & look at the example monster there to see how it is laid out. Be sure to include & update a changelog as you make changes.
Edit: Also, if Mootoall is right, and you copied text directly from existing material, consider rewriting it or changing the ability. Copying non-OGL stuff is a general no-no.


Previous batch critique(s) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=10437110#post10437110).

@ Psyborg: Sounds interesting. Good luck. There's a lot of good potential images for such creatures on the web, so I'm interested to see what you scrounge up for use.

mootoall
2011-02-28, 09:52 PM
Hyudra liked my suggestion! She really liked it! :smalltongue: That being said, I'm nigh done with the Unbodied, and what I'm doing with its incorporeality is giving it a few uses per day (as defined by its limited PP) until 15 or 16 HD, when a Psion Uncarnate gets it. Also something to note, unless I'm mistaken the Phantom is getting the same Incorporeality text as (I believe) the Phase Cloak gets in MoI. Just something to note.

Hyudra
2011-02-28, 10:47 PM
In a rare instance, I've actually moved one creature off the finished list and back onto the unfinished list. Gorgon informed me that he wanted to make further changes to the Saguaro Sentinel in light of recent critiques by Kyuubi. My bad.

@ Mootoall - I edited in that bit about the MoI cloak in the phantom description.

mootoall
2011-02-28, 11:04 PM
In a rare instance, I've actually moved one creature off the finished list and back onto the unfinished list. Gorgon informed me that he wanted to make further changes to the Saguaro Sentinel in light of recent critiques by Kyuubi. My bad. @ Mootoall - I edited in that bit about the MoI cloak in the phantom description. This streak of being right's gonna end as soon as I post the Unbodied, I can tell. Also, know what's really weird? Making an ability called "Unbodied body"

Mystic Muse
2011-02-28, 11:12 PM
If anybody needs a critique, feel free to IM or PM me. Otherwise, I will look over Hyudra's critiques, make sure I don't repeat anything she says, and look at several classes tomorrow.

Frog Dragon
2011-03-01, 12:07 AM
Black Dragon (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10246297&postcount=149)
A proposal, partially in response to your PM. You try your hand at renovating the black dragon without Oslecamo's methodology, and I'll let grammar/spelling mistakes slide for the first few critiques (at least, until you and I decide we like your version and want to finish it), so you can focus on getting abilities on the page & getting a general kind of balance working. Sound good? Just experiment, be creative.[/list]
I correct grammar obsessively enough that I doubt the existence of spelling errors in my work. Awkward wording, copypasta failures, yes, but no spelling errors. :smalltongue:

I have school to attend to shortly, but I'll get to it soon.

Zemro
2011-03-01, 12:27 AM
I did some digging around and since I didn't see it or any claims on it I'm going to call the Justice Archon (MMIV Pg 80). I won't be posting it any time soon, but wanted to make sure there wouldn't be conflicts.

I'm also looking at picking up one of the abandoned monsters to fix up, just waiting to hear back from it's original creator.

Sorry for lack of comment and critique on the recent monsters. I've been a bit busy and there seems to be a lot of critique happening already, so finding something to say that hasn't already been said is difficult.

mootoall
2011-03-01, 12:32 AM
Unbodied
http://132.209.40.23/w4/campagne/images/WotC_Art_Galleries/ExpandedPsionicsHandbook/Unbodied%20by%20Jim%20Pavelec.jpg
Source: XPH, SRD
Hit Dice: d6

{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Class Features

1st|
+0|
+0|
+2|
+2|Unbodied Body, Natural Telepath, +1 Int

2nd|
+1|
+0|
+3|
+3|Assume Appearance, +1 Cha

3rd|
+2|
+1|
+3|
+3|Now You See Me, Now You Don't, Disappearing, +1 Cha

4th|
+3|
+1|
+4|
+4|4th level ability, +1 Cha

5th|
+3|
+1|
+4|
+4|Incorporeality, +1 Cha, +1 Int
[/table]

Skills Points at First Level: (6+Intelligence Modifier) x 4
Skills Points at Each Level: (6+Intelligence Modifier)
Class Skills: The Unbodied's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Autohypnosis (Wis), Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Concentration (Con), Diplomacy (Cha), Disguise (Cha), Disable Device (Dex), Escape Artist (Dex), Gather Information (Cha), Hide (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (All Skills Taken Individually) (Int), Move Silently (Dex), Open Lock (Dex), Profession (Int), Psicraft (Int), Search (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Slight of Hand (Dex), and Use Rope (Dex)

Proficiencies: The Unbodied is proficient with all simple weapons, all finessable martial weapons and the hand crossbow, as well as light armor.

Unbodied Class Features: The following are the Class Features of the Unbodied.

Unbodied Body (Ex): At first level the Unbodied loses all racial traits. They become a Medium Monstrous Humanoid, with the [Psionic] subtype. At 16 HD, they gain the subtype. Unbodied are naturally psionic, and at first level gain 1 bonus power point. They also gain bonus power points from having a high Charisma or Intelligence score, decided by the Unbodied at first level. For the purpose of multiclassing with manifesting classes, Unbodied levels stack for the purposes of determining bonus power points, power points, powers known, and maximum powers levels known. Unbodied levels stack with Psychic Rogue or Lurk levels for determining Sneak Attack or Psionic Sneak Attack damage.

[I]Natural Telepath (Ex): The Unbodied is capable of high level espionage, relying on its vast mental prowess to give it this bonus. The Unbodied manifests as a Telepath with a level equal to its Telepath levels-1. Additionally, at first level, it can manifest Read Thoughts as a PLA at-will, with a save DC of 10+½HD+Int or Cha, based on what stat they based their bonus power points on.


Ability Score Bonus (Ex): At every level besides first, the Unbodied gets a +1 bonus to Charisma. At first and fifth level, the Unbodied gets a +1 bonus to Intelligence.


Assume Appearance (Su): At second level, the Unbodied has faded further from physical existence, and this has made their appearance more mutable. Their basic visage becomes a slightly glowing, grey skinned human, except they seem a bit fuzzy around the edges. By expending their psionic focus, Unbodied have the supernatural ability to alter their appearance as though using a disguise self spell that affects their bodies but not their possessions. This is not an illusory effect but a minor physical alteration of a Unbodied's facial features, skin color and texture, and size, within the limits described for the spell. An Unbodied can use this ability at will, and the alteration lasts until she changes shape again. An Unbodied reverts to its natural form when killed. A true seeing spell reveals her natural form. Using this ability is a move action. The Unbodied can additionally spend two power points to copy one opponent exactly, down to their actions and tone of voice. Your opponents must make a Will save with a DC equal to 10+1/2 HD+the Unbodied's Charisma modifier, or not know which the real one is. If the copied creature is within ten feet of the Unbodied, opponents have a 50% chance to attack the wrong target. Finally, opponents who failed their Will save automatically fail any Sense Motive checks opposing the Unbodied's Bluff checks for the purpose of feinting. If the Unbodied is killed while using Assume Appearance, they revert back to their basic form. At 5 HD, they may take the appearance of a small humanoid or monstrous humanoid, and at 7 HD they may take the appearance of a large humanoid or monstrous humanoid. This changes the Unbodied's AC and attack bonus, but otherwise has no mechanical effects.

Now You See Me, Now You Don't (Su): The Unbodied is a master spy by nature, a king of manipulation, and every spy requires an escape route. At third level, the Unbodied uses its already incorporeal nature to achieve this. As a standard action, by expending their psionic focus and paying five power points, the Unbodied may momentarily fade from the material plane and rematerialize a distance of 5 feet per 2 HD away. This ability allows the Unbodied to move through solid objects, but if the movement ends with the Unbodied within a solid object they are shunted to the nearest open space, taking 1d6 damage per 5 feet shunted.

Disappearing (Ex): At third level, the Unbodied's body has started fading from this plane. Their extremities seem translucent, and they leave less of a mark on the places they walk. They gain a +4 bonus to hide and move silently, and as a swift action, 1/day per 3 HD, they can spend 3 power points to enter a state where their slight incorporeality spreads to their weapons. For a number of rounds equal to their ½ their Charisma modifier, their melee attacks, and ranged attacks out to 30 feet, are capable of striking incorporeal creatures, and their attacks target their opponents' touch AC.

Hide Mind: As it hides amongst the ranks of their enemies, the Unbodied learns to avoid detection as a spy. While the Unbodied maintains their psionic focus, they and the powers that they manifest do not register as psionic when subjected to a Detect Psionics power, or Detect Magic spell. By expending their psionic focus, they may send a burst of mental power through the area near them, rendering divination particularly difficult there. The Unbodied produces an aura with a radius of 10' per 4 HD centered on them, and that area becomes filled with psionic interference. Casters attempting to cast divination spells affecting the Unbodied or people or objects in the area of the aura must make an opposed caster level check against the Unbodied, or have their spells fail. This aura lasts for 1 minute per HD of the Unbodied.

Incorporeality (Ex): The Unbodied is, finally, ready to fully shed their mortal flesh. They appear only as a medium sized patch of white light, the brightness of which they can adjust as a free action, when they are not using the Assume Appearance ability. They are still capable of being harmed by mundane weapons, unless they expend a portion of their psionic power. By expending seven power points, they may become fully incorporeal as a full round action for a number of rounds equal to their charisma modifier, gaining the full abilities of the [Incorporeal] subtype, with the following exceptions. While incorporeal, the Unbodied lose their strength score, and instead wield weapons using pure telekinetic energy. They use their dexterity score to modify their to-hit rolls instead of strength, and are capable of manipulating objects with telekinesis. For the purposes of carrying capacity, they are treated as having a Strength score of 10 +2 per 5 HD. Their magic items and armor fade into incorporeality with them. Any armor bonuses granted from armor become deflection bonuses, and the ACP for armor in which they are proficient becomes 0. The round spent becoming incorporeal does not count towards the duration of the ability. At 8 HD, the Unbodied may become incorporeal as a standard action. At 10 HD, they may become incorporeal as a move action. At 12 HD, they may become incorporeal as a swift action. At 14 HD, the duration of the incorporeality increases to a number of rounds equal to the Unbodied's HD. At 16 HD, the Unbodied becomes permanently incorporeal, and may become corporeal as a swift action in order to equip magic items and armor.


Comments/Changelog:

Comments:
Part Psion Uncarnate, part Rogue, I figured that what I did is a good way to make that happen, without being too powerful (I think). The fluff calls it essentially a master spy, so I gave it a bunch of social abilities and skills, as well as its trademark incorporeality.

I'm desperately seeking a fourth level ability, preferably something social-ish for flavor purposes.

Also, gonna give it more skills. Duh.

Changelog

1/3/11: Fixed class skills after realizing they were far too sparse. Now has most of the Psychic Rogue's list, changed Incorporeal subtype from 15 to 16 HD, one level after the Uncarnate. Reduced amount of "Wraithstrike" attacks to 1/2 Cha mod until 9 HD.

2/3/11: Altered the text for Assume Appearance to match Changeling text. Moved Disappearing to third level. Added Telepath Manifesting at Unbodied Level-1 as per Gorgondantess' request. Added Hide Mind ability.

Tacitus
2011-03-01, 01:19 AM
First of all, I'm diggin the Unbodied, but I see one small problem right off the bat. Its giving Wraithstrike with a duration of Rounds based on Cha Mod, and its doing this at level one. Overall, its an amazing working to both make the Unbodied easier to play (as an Uncarnate has the ability to become corporeal and an unbodied does not, something you've rectified), but I can't shake the feeling that the ability to dole out a large number of touch attacks is a a wee bit too powerful for the first level in a base monster class.

Hyudra
2011-03-01, 01:42 AM
There's also the incorporeal subtype at level 1. That breaks the game right off the bat.

Benly
2011-03-01, 02:27 AM
This streak of being right's gonna end as soon as I post the Unbodied, I can tell. Also, know what's really weird? Making an ability called "Unbodied body"

You could always call it "Conspicuous Lack Of Body".

Mystic Muse
2011-03-01, 04:25 AM
Just a heads up, still working on the Silver dragon. Should be able to post it tomorrow if I can think of a cool ability for level 14, a name for the capstone, possibly find something else for level 19, and run a check on the abilities so they aren't overpowered.

mootoall
2011-03-01, 07:39 AM
Ah, the [Incorporeal] subtype was not meant to be granted at level one, but only while using incorporeality as gained at fifth level. That was something that got scourged in an edit, which then must've got added in as I was copy-pasting from word. I'll fix it. I'll give a much smaller duration for wraithstrike, though it's only one attack per round barring shenanigans. Still looking for a fourth level ability ...

The Winter King
2011-03-01, 08:05 AM
You've got an ability outside the spoiler there.
Ooops ive gotta start double checking for these

I really like Killer Bee.
Me too, thought it up watching winnie the pooh and the honey tree:smallsmile:

That said, you've still got the issue of Phase Wasps at level 2 having huge hide checks (5 ranks, +8 for tiny size, +5 for dex = a +18 on hide), leaving it predominantly as an ambush based class, like practically every other tiny creature in this project. What if Killer Bee was a toggled ability or stance, with a built in drawback that the violently buzzing, darting insect can't hide?
Damn, that is a problem I forgot the siz mod rules because my table uses relative size, on second thought what if I made it so that whenever they are hovering/flying they take a -5 penalty to Hide checks

The 3HD benefit should probably be restricted to 5' of movement. If you feel it needs more gravy to make it appealing and interesting, consider allowing the bee to make two AoOs in the doing, provided it has the ability (ie. combat reflexes).
Nice idea

You offer two benefits at 3HD, killer bee upgrade and phase powers upgrade. Consider spacing them out more, so PCs who've invested in the class see a more broad, general benefit (rather than a bunch of stuff at levels 1 & 2, two boosts at 3HD, then nothing until 16). You could give killer bee another upgrade, allowing it to move the full distance alongside enemies, at 10th or 12th, to just flesh it out a bit more.
changed killer bee to 9HD and any amount of distance, at 18HD it will include teleportaion effects.

Buzz Song: "friendly creatures that can hear the Buzz Song gain a +1 morale bonus on skill checks, attack and damage rolls, and saving throws." Too many "and"s
Fixed

HP & AC. It's a little too tough (tougher than, say, a griffon), between d8 HD, natural armor from con and tiny size. Consider shrinking the HD, lowering the natural armor to 1 + 1 per 2 points of con mod and giving it another point of dex at 2nd level. So it's not quite so tough, hard to hit and brutish. It should still do quite nicely for AC and be hard to hit, but that's now more dependent on dexterity, and leaves it vulnerable when flatfooted.
HD down a size, Nat Armor down a size, and am going to add SR because the MMII says they are nuisainces to wizards.

It works. It stands out, I really do like killer bee, and it's got a very solid identity as "harassment", just some tweaks to be made to deal with the still-present hide thing, the balance the smoothness of progression and the "I can't escape this damned bee that moves every time I do and that I can't hit!"
Thank you that was what I was going for

Lizard Lord
2011-03-01, 10:28 AM
I do like the whole "different ability depending on which type of undead taught the Hooded Pupil thing".

So I thought up which undead pop into my head when I think "intelligent undead" and spit-balled ideas for them. Here is what I have so far:

Vampire: Drink Blood seemed like the obvious choice, but then the Vampire path won't really have anything the current version of the Hooded Pupil has (except for a fixed version of Drink Blood. I have typed an idea for it at the bottom of the post.) and it would still be without a role.

Mummy: Disease effect for spending a long time in the mummy's tomb? Maybe damage reduction due to a mummy's pupil being wrapped in magical bandages? If DR is too strong, would fire vulnerability counter it? I'm kinda liking DR as it could give the Hooded Pupil a sort of "tanking" role. Though my own take on the flavor of it seems a little odd to me.

Ghast: I don't really want to give paralysis here since I don't see how a ghast could teach it or magically grant it. Maybe I give the mummy's pupil DR and give the ghast's pupil a disease effect that he cultivated from eating or generally being around raw carrion?

Lich: Maybe here I give spellcasting progression? Not sure what else could go here.

Ghost: Fear effect? Ghosttouch? Invisibility? I'm really not sure what I should put here.

I realize the idea of this part of the Hooded Pupil would be to try and flesh out a role for it, and not all these ideas work to do that. But, like I said, I'm just spit-balling right now.

As for how to improve Drink Blood, maybe I could have it heal 1 damage per HD +constitution modifier and have it heal 2 Constitution damage when the Hooded Pupil uses it?

Hyudra
2011-03-01, 11:17 AM
I do like the whole "different ability depending on which type of undead taught the Hooded Pupil thing".

So I thought up which undead pop into my head when I think "intelligent undead" and spit-balled ideas for them. Here is what I have so far:

Vampire: Drink Blood seemed like the obvious choice, but then the Vampire path won't really have anything the current version of the Hooded Pupil has (except for a fixed version of Drink Blood. I have typed an idea for it at the bottom of the post.) and it would still be without a role.

Mummy: Disease effect for spending a long time in the mummy's tomb? Maybe damage reduction due to a mummy's pupil being wrapped in magical bandages? If DR is too strong, would fire vulnerability counter it? I'm kinda liking DR as it could give the Hooded Pupil a sort of "tanking" role. Though my own take on the flavor of it seems a little odd to me.

Ghast: I don't really want to give paralysis here since I don't see how a ghast could teach it or magically grant it. Maybe I give the mummy's pupil DR and give the ghast's pupil a disease effect that he cultivated from eating or generally being around raw carrion?

Lich: Maybe here I give spellcasting progression? Not sure what else could go here.

Ghost: Fear effect? Ghosttouch? Invisibility? I'm really not sure what I should put here.

I realize the idea of this part of the Hooded Pupil would be to try and flesh out a role for it, and not all these ideas work to do that. But, like I said, I'm just spill-balling right now.

As for how to improve Drink Blood, maybe I could have it heal 1 damage per HD +constitution modifier and have it heal 2 Constitution damage when the Hooded Pupil uses it?

Trouble with some of those ideas is that Disease is, well, it's not a great PC ability. You can disease a foe, and... well, then what? They'll probably die in the 1-4 rounds of combat, and then your disease won't have a chance to be used. Catch my meaning?

Also, you really want to emphasize active abilities over passive ones. I touch on what that means a few posts above, in my reply to Winter King. Just ensure the abilities are suitably diverse (and ideally, original), and there should be the ability to fit the Hooded Pupil to some role.

Benly
2011-03-01, 11:38 AM
I do like the whole "different ability depending on which type of undead taught the Hooded Pupil thing".

So I thought up which undead pop into my head when I think "intelligent undead" and spit-balled ideas for them. Here is what I have so far:

Vampire: Drink Blood seemed like the obvious choice, but then the Vampire path won't really have anything the current version of the Hooded Pupil has (except for a fixed version of Drink Blood. I have typed an idea for it at the bottom of the post.) and it would still be without a role.

Mummy: Disease effect for spending a long time in the mummy's tomb? Maybe damage reduction due to a mummy's pupil being wrapped in magical bandages? If DR is too strong, would fire vulnerability counter it? I'm kinda liking DR as it could give the Hooded Pupil a sort of "tanking" role. Though my own take on the flavor of it seems a little odd to me.

Ghast: I don't really want to give paralysis here since I don't see how a ghast could teach it or magically grant it. Maybe I give the mummy's pupil DR and give the ghast's pupil a disease effect that he cultivated from eating or generally being around raw carrion?

Lich: Maybe here I give spellcasting progression? Not sure what else could go here.

Ghost: Fear effect? Ghosttouch? Invisibility? I'm really not sure what I should put here.

I realize the idea of this part of the Hooded Pupil would be to try and flesh out a role for it, and not all these ideas work to do that. But, like I said, I'm just spill-balling right now.

As for how to improve Drink Blood, maybe I could have it heal 1 damage per HD +constitution modifier and have it heal 2 Constitution damage when the Hooded Pupil uses it?

For the ghast, you could give an active-use stench ability, since that's one of the ghast's signature schticks and it's one you could reasonably get by hanging out with carrion-eaters (magically enhanced, of course)Maybe add a paralyzing touch at higher HD.

DR sounds viable for mummies as a "tank option", or you could give a fear effect like a lesser version of the mummy's despair - obviously something less potent, like "move action to make enemies save vs. shaken", since actual Despair is extremely powerful. It could upgrade at higher HD to stay useful, perhaps - maybe at low HD it's a standard action, upgrading to move and swift as you gain HD.

If you don't want blood drinking for vampires, their Alternate Form (bat/wolf/gaseous form) comes to mind. Maybe start with the weaker forms and improve the options as you gain HD.

Spellcasting progression is boring, but giving it as an option for liches means this is a class spellcasters might actually bother to take, so I can't complain.

Incorporeality is the obvious one for ghosts, but it's much too powerful at low levels. Maybe at low HD you can move through enemies' spaces and get a miss chance on AoOs when you're moving, upgrading at higher HD into the ability to move through thin barriers and finally true incorporeality?

Kobold-Bard
2011-03-01, 02:30 PM
Hey, could I request a council readthrough of Oslecamo's vampire? I asked once when he was still around, being destroyed in 2 rounds of sunlight or 3 rounds after being Plane Shifted onto the Plane of Water seems harsh for a player character.

Also, if you aren't bitten by a vampire it requires you to take both Dodge & Alertness as pre-req Feats, which I hope we can all agree is harsh.

Hyudra
2011-03-01, 02:41 PM
Yeah. I remember liking the blood points system of the vampire, but finding the class a little flawed. If there was interest, I could put a Vampire revision on my to-do list, after Drow, Xorvintaal Red and Leucrotta.

mootoall
2011-03-01, 02:58 PM
Can anyone suggest a fourth level ability for the Unbodied? I'm frankly stumped as to what else might fit it ... I know I want it to be interaction based, with the parameters listed in "4th level ability," but otherwise I'm all out of ideas.

Tacitus
2011-03-01, 03:30 PM
Hmm... had the Barghest been done in a previous incarnation of the project? I think I'd seen it done, but checking through the thread indexes I don't see it. Is there anyone willing to take on the Barghest? I've not really the time to do it myself at the moment. >.>

Psyborg
2011-03-01, 04:30 PM
Greenbound Creature
http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c198/Behind_You/greenbound.jpg
Prestige Monster Class/Template
Lost Empires of Faerûn

Class:


Greenbound Creature Prerequisites
To become a Greenbound Creature, a character must meet the following requirements:
Type: Any living, corporeal humanoid, monstrous humanoid, giant, dragon, fey, outsider, animal, or magical beast.
Hit Dice: Minimum 5HD.
Special: Must not have any undead or fire-elemental grafts, any attached symbiont classified as an aberration, or the [fire] subtype.

HD: D8

{table=head]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|
Special

1st|
+0|
+2|
+0|
+2|Greenbound Body, Symbiont, Clear Mind, +1 Con

2nd|
+1|
+3|
+0|
+3|Mettle, Weather Sense, Symbiotic Swiftness, +1 Con[/table]

Skill Points per Level: 4+Intelligence Modifier
Class Skills: The Greenbound Creature’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Balance (Dex), Climb (Str), Craft(woodworking) (Int), Disguise (Cha), Handle Animal (Cha), Heal (Wis), Hide (Dex), Knowledge(Nature), Listen (Wis), Profession(horticulture) (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Spot (Wis), Survival (Wis), and Swim (Str).

Proficiencies: The Greenbound Creature does not gain any weapon, armor, or shield proficiencies. She retains all proficiencies of the base creature.

Attribute Bonus: The Greenbound Creature gains +1 to Constitution at each level, for a total bonus of +2 Constitution at 2nd level.

Greenbound Body: The Greenbound Creature's type does not change. She retains all types, subtypes, and racial traits of the base creature. She gains Natural Armor equal to 1/2 her Con modifier, or 1 + her existing Natural Armor, whichever is higher. She gains Light Fortification, giving her a 25% chance to negate extra damage from critical hits, Sneak Attack, and precision damage. This does not stack with any existing Fortification. At 14HD, this improves to Moderate Fortification, granting her a 50% chance to negate such damage. At 21HD, the Greenbound Creature gains immunity to critical hits, Sneak Attack, and precision damage, and retains her 50% Fortification against any effect that would bypass this immunity.

Symbiont (Ex): At 1st level, the Greenbound Creature gains a symbiont, a bonded plant that grows on and over her. She may choose one symbiont from the list below. While bonded to her chosen symbiont, she may not benefit from any resistance or immunity to fire. On any day in which she gets at least 6 hours of natural sunlight or 12 hours of equivalent artifical illumination, she need not eat. (She must still drink and breathe normally.) She gains a racial bonus equal to 1/2 her HD to Disguise checks made to appear as a mundane plant of her symbiont's type. Finally, she may use the Least Powers of her chosen symbiont. At 10HD, the Greenbound Creature gains access to her symbiont's Lesser Powers.

While living and bonded, a character and her symbiont are considered parts of the same whole and cannot normally be targeted or affected separately; symbionts cannot be destroyed, sundered, damaged, or healed separately from the character they are attached to. A character bonded to a plant symbiont cannot receive undead or fire-elemental grafts, or attach symbionts classified as aberrations. A character with a symbiont who dies and is raised, resurrected, reincarnated, or otherwise restored to life has the symbiont restored to life with her.

Plant Symbionts

Oak:
Least Powers: Characters bonded to an Oak symbiont increase their Hit Die from d8 to d10 for all Greenbound Creature and Greenbound Paragon levels.
Damage Reduction (Ex): The bonded character gains DR/- equal to 1/2 her HD.
Spell-Like Ability (Sp): speak with plants, 1/day per four HD.Lesser Powers: Resilience (Su): If the bonded character would gain resistance to an energy type or types (except Fire) from any source, the amount of energy resistance is increased by 50%, rounded down.
Spell-Like Abilities (Sp): barkskin[/b], bear's endurance, 1/day per four HD each.Greater Power: Forest Lord (Ex): The bonded character's maximum HP is permanently increased as if she had rolled the maximum possible result on each of her Hit Dice. Each time she gains a Hit Die thereafter, she gains the maximum possible result from the Hit Die instead of actually rolling.

Kudzu:
Least Powers: Fast Healing (Ex): The bonded character gains Fast Healing equal to 1 per four HD.
Spell-Like Ability (Sp)[/b]: speak with plants, 1/day per four HD.Lesser Powers: Regenerative Focus (Su): With practice, the bonded character learns to channel her own energy to enhance her symbiont's regenerative abilities. Once per round, she may spend an action to increase the effectiveness of her Fast Healing for that round. (She may only do this once per round, even if she has the ability to take additional actions of some type.) The degree of this increase depends on the action she spends.{table=head]Action Spent|Fast Healing
none | 1 per four HD
Swift | 1 per three HD
Move | 1 per two HD
Standard* | 1 per HD
Full-Round* | 2 x HD[/table]
*Devoting this much attention to enhancing her Fast Healing renders the bonded character vulnerable to distraction and surprise. Spending these types of actions on Regenerative Focus provokes an Attack of Opportunity.
Spell-Like Ability (Sp)[/b]: entangle, 1/day per four HD. Vines from the character's symbiont are sufficient greenery to entangle anything within Close range (25' + 5'/2lvls).Greater Power:Vine Shield (Ex): The bonded character gains temporary HP equal to twice her HD at the beginning of each of her turns. These stack with other sources of temporary HP, but not with each other.

Dreamlily:

<undecided>:

Comments

Wow. Lot bigger project than I'd planned on when I started. And the symbionts themselves are very much a work in progress.

Changelog

v0.1 (~4:30PM March 1 2011): Unfinished.
v0.2 (~8:25PM March 2 2011): Did Oak and Sunflower. Still unfinished overall.
v1.0 (~12:55PM March 3 2011): Finished Moonflower. Put Ivy, Hazel, and Mistletoe on hold until I get some more ideas (Ivy) and get a better idea of what symbiont balance ought to look like (Hazel and Mistletoe). Ready for first-round critiques.
v1.0.1 (~): Moved up to the Greenbound Creature section of the post, just below the Symbiont ability.
v2.0.1 (~1PM March 8 2011): Complete rewrite in progress. Oak and Kudzu finished; Dreamlily and the other one still need to be written.


Clear Mind (Ex): Bonding with a plant symbiote has a stabilizing effect on the Greenbound Creature’s mind. At 1st level, she gains immunity to charm and compulsion abilities effects and a +2 insight bonus to Will saves. This clarity of mind also sharpens her senses: she may use her highest mental ability score modifier for Listen, Search, Spot, and Sense Motive checks.

Mettle (Ex): At 2nd level, the Greenbound Creature can resist magical and unusual attacks with great willpower or fortitude. If she makes a successful will or fortitude save against an attack that normally would have a lesser effect on a successful save (such as a spell with a saving throw entry of Will half or Fortitude partial), she instead completely negates the effect. An unconscious or sleeping Greenbound Creature does not gain the benefit of mettle.

Weather Sense (Ex): A Greenbound Creature’s intimate connection with the natural world improves her awareness of natural phenomena. At 2nd level, she gains a +5 circumstance bonus to Survival checks to predict the weather. This bonus is reduced to +2 if the Greenbound Creature is in an unfamiliar climate.

Symbiotic Swiftness (Su): The symbiont of a 2nd-level Greenbound Creature can move without her explicit control. Once per day per six HD, her symbiont may take an action to use one of its abilities without costing the Greenbound Creature an action. It may do so at any time except during a surprise round, even when it is not the Greenbound Creature’s turn, but it cannot interrupt other creatures’ actions; the symbiont’s action occurs after any actions that were pending when it was declared.



Comments

The original Greenbound Creature template is absurdly powerful for its CR+2 rating- perhaps even powerful enough to deserve its official +8 Level Adjustment. Hopefully this will be...worth taking for its two levels, even if I did have to create a Paragon class for it out of thin air to justify actually gaining the Plant type and its slew of useful traits.

Its role as I see it is to give some useful defenses and flavorful utility abilities to a character, without delaying the progression of said character’s primarily abilities too much.

Help finding images would be greatly appreciated.(Thanks, Hyudra.)

...you know what? It still looks front-loaded as heck. I'm going to put it up how it is for now, but...there's too much going on. Considering rolling Fortification and Resistance into a Body ability, or maybe Symbiont, just to clean up the table, but I don't want to hide a balance problem with the abilities just by consolidating their effects into a single table entry. Possibly push one of them back to Greenbound Paragon, replacing Improved Spell-Like Abilities?

Parallel Actions is the only ability that really has a chance to be a balance concern in and of itself. Going to re-evaluate that once I finish the symbionts.

7:50PM March 1 2011 (v1.1 edit): I'm concerned about Mettle being a bit early at level 7, but I don't want to make people take Greenbound Paragon for it, either. Am I stressing about nothing, or should I put a "At X HD, the Greenbound Paragon gains..." on it?


Changelog

v1.0 (~4:30PM March 1 2011): Original version.
v1.1 (~7:50PM March 1 2011): Added image (thanks, Hyudra).
Added Dragon to the permissible creature types in the Prerequisites.
Removed Energy Resistance; moved Weather Sense to 2nd level.
Removed the possibility of changing symbiont types.
v1.1.1 (~10:10AM March 2 2011): Corrected wording in Mettle.
v1.1.2 (~4:15PM March 2 2011): Slightly altered wording in prerequisites. Specified that characters bonded to a plant symbiont can't receive fire-elemental grafts. Specified interaction of symbionts with death and resurrection.
v1.2 (~3:30PM March 6 2011): Fortification, natural armor, etc., rolled into Greenbound Body.
Attribute Bonus: Corrected "[Monster]" to "Greenbound Creature".
Skill list trimmed: Removed Craft, Escape Artist, Intimidate, Profession, and Use Rope; added Craft (woodworking), Knowledge(nature), and Profession (horticulture). Disguise was retained for purposes of masquerading as a mundane bush, and a bonus to such attempts was added to Symbiont.
Removed complications involving death, resurrection, and removing and reacquiring symbionts.
Parallel Actions renamed to Symbiotic Swiftness.


Greenbound Paragon
http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c198/Behind_You/paragon.jpg
Prestige Monster Class/Template
Lost Empires of Faerûn

Class:


Greenbound Paragon Prerequisites
To become a Greenbound Paragon, a character must meet the following requirements:
Type: Any living, corporeal humanoid, monstrous humanoid, giant, dragon, fey, outsider, animal, or magical beast.
Hit Dice: Minimum 12HD.
Special: Must have completed the Greenbound Creature monster prestige class.

HD: D8

{table=head]Level|BAB*|Fort*|Ref*|Will*|
Special

1st|
+0|
+2|
+0|
+2|Natural Paragon, +1 Wis

2nd|
+1|
+3|
+0|
+3|Greater Symbiont or Second Symbiont, +1 Con

3rd|
+2|
+3|
+1|
+3|Greenbound Apotheosis, +1 Con, +1 Wis[/table]

Skill Points per Level: 4+Intelligence Modifier
Class Skills: The Greenbound Creature’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Balance (Dex), Climb (Str), Craft(woodworking) (Int), Disguise (Cha), Handle Animal (Cha), Heal (Wis), Hide (Dex), Listen (Wis), Profession(horticulture) (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Spot (Wis), Survival (Wis), and Swim (Str).

Proficiencies: The Greenbound Paragon does not gain any weapon, armor, or shield proficiencies. It retains all proficiencies of the base creature.

Attribute Bonus: The Greenbound Paragon gains +1 to Wisdom at levels 1 and 3, and +1 to Constitution at levels 2 and 3, for a total bonus of +2 Wis and +2 Con at 3rd level.

Natural Paragon: A Greenbound Paragon is blessed with a particularly close bond with the powers of nature. Upon taking her first level in this class, a Greenbound Paragon may add her Greenbound Creature and Greenbound Paragon levels to her other class levels to determine the power of the following class features (if she has them):
Animal Companion (Special: Greenbound levels always count fully towards the character's effective Druid level for determining animal companion advancement.)
Favored Enemy or Skirmish
Fast Movement
Wild Empathy
and her choice of one of the following:
Wild Shape
Shapeshift
Aspect of Nature
Ranger spellcasting (or any divine spellcasting ability that has access to the Ranger and/or Druid spell lists and does not gain 9th-level spells at any point)
Domain powers of nature-oriented domains (Plant, Animal, Nature, Weather, and any similarly nature-themed domain, subject to DM approval)
Breath weapon
Totemist essentia pool and soulmelds per day progression (but [i]not chakra binds per day or access to new chakras)
Homebrew: Granted abilities of nature-oriented mantles (if homebrew mantles with powers that scale with level are used)
Homebrew: Concurrence progression (Sagittarius base class)Additionally, her bonus from the Weather Sense class ability doubles (to +10, or +4 in unfamiliar climates).

Greater Symbiont (Ex) or Second Symbiont (Ex): At 2nd level, the Greenbound Paragon may choose to either unlock the Greater Power of her chosen plant symbiont, or bond with a second plant symbiont of her choice, gaining access to its Least and Lesser powers. Once made, this choice cannot be altered.
Characters who choose Second Symbiont may have either of their symbionts act via the Symbiotic Swiftness class feature, but they share a single pool of daily uses.

Greenbound Apotheosis: At 3rd level, the Greenbound Paragon’s plant symbionts merge fully with her body. Her Type changes to Plant, and she gains the Augmented subtype appropriate to her former type. She retains all existing subtypes and other racial traits and bonuses, and gains Plant traits (granting her Low-Light Vision and immunity to stunning, polymorph, paralysis, poison, sleep, critical hits, Sneak Attacks, and precision damage, and mind-affecting effects). She retains the benefit of her Fortification from Greenbound Body against any effect that would normally ignore immunity to critical hits or precision damage. She no longer needs to sleep, but must still rest for eight hours in order to prepare spells or recover spell slots or power points. Her Natural Armor gained from the Greenbound Body class feature improves to equal her Con modifier, or 2 + her existing Natural Armor, whichever is higher. She cannot benefit from any form of resistance or immunity to fire.



Comments

And here’s the “second half” of the deal- actually getting the Plant type change! Along with some other cool stuff. It's less strictly defensive than Greenbound Creature.

Symbiotic Swiftness is probably the only balance concern here.

7:40PM March 1 2011: Looking for a level 1 ability, preferably active. Natural Paragon is handy, but not very interesting. Any ideas?


Changelog

v1.0 (~4:30PM March 1 2011): Original version.
v1.0.1 (~4:33PM March 1 2011): Fixed the 3rd-level BAB and saves in the table.
v1.1 (~7:50PM March 1 2011): Added image (thanks, Hyudra).
Added Dragon to the list of permissible creature types in the Prerequisites.
Eliminated all references to Energy Resistance, which no longer exists.
Removed the "hasn't removed/changed/lost symbiont in three levels" prerequisite, since symbionts can't be changed any more anyway.
After trying and failing to clarify the language in Symbiotic Transformation, merged it with Greenbound Body.
Removed Improved Spell-Like Abilities, as it's boring and screws with all kinds of ought-to-be-simple stuff. Looking for an active ability of some sort to replace it.
Added language to Natural Paragon to prevent Supermount stacking.v1.1.1 (~4:15PM March 2 2011): Slightly altered some wording in prerequisites. Specified interaction of symbionts with death and resurrection.
v1.2 (~3:30PM March 6 2011): Skills list trimmed: Removed Craft, Escape Artist, Intimidate, Profession, and Use Rope; added Craft (woodworking), Knowledge(nature), and Profession (horticulture).
Renamed Greenbound Body to Greenbound Apotheosis. Removed/altered several references to things that were changed in Greenbound Creature.
Removed Symbiotic Swiftness. Parallel Action renamed to Symbiotic Swiftness, and is no longer lost or otherwise altered upon apotheosis. Second Symbiont characters now share a single pool of daily uses between their symbionts, rather than each symbiotn having its own.
After gaining crit/precision-damage-immunity, Fortification becomes effective against effects that would ignore that immunity.
Removed advancement for Familiars and Special Mounts. Greenbound levels now add fully to Effective Druid Level for animal companions, even for Rangers.

Hyudra
2011-03-01, 05:02 PM
No Pic? Here's two possibilities:

http://i54.tinypic.com/1nxsb4.jpg
http://i52.tinypic.com/15g3skx.jpg

You're gonna want to resize those, though. The 'how' is in the link in the first post (That leads to a bunch of stuff, including image FAQ).

Gorgondantess
2011-03-01, 05:03 PM
Psurlon:
What Hyudra said.
Additionally:
On levels: please don't do something that breaks convention without asking first. I don't believe there's a single other monster on here that has levels=/=CR. That's because there's a few good ways around the whole PLA thing.
One is to just base it off of HD. There are many monsters- specifically low level outsiders- that'll gain an SLA at later HD once it finishes all class levels.
OR, you can just do it as an 8 level class and include something at 6th level about starting as an elder psurlon. Which, really, should have been done from the start.


Might want to copy standard spellcasting multiclassing rules. See vanilla mindflayer. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7947714&postcount=13) Also, it's rude to force people into something so specific: "manifesting class" would be better than "wilder"
In place of this:

At each following Psurlon level, a Psurlon gains bonus power points equal to half of their current Hit Dice (rounded down). Psurlons do not gain known powers, however, levels of Psurlon count as Wilder levels for the purposes of maximum power level known and maximum power points spent to manifest a Wilder power.
The Psurlon does not use intelligence for any of its abilities. As such, it should not gain intelligence bonuses.
Inertial armor: Honestly don't see why you couldn't just have given that as a PLA.
Telekinetic blast: should scale by HD, not level. Also, it's a little powerful to give something the equivalent of a warlock's eldritch blast for a 1 level dip.
Blindsight should come later and scale.
Bonus feats...:smallsigh:
Damage reduction: I wasn't aware DR/Psionics existed. Also, wouldn't psionics always pierce DR anyways? Looks like you're essentially giving them DR/-.:smallconfused:
Oh... right. Using Psionics are Different is sortof like not using the swift action optional variant. Pretty much nobody does it, and for good reason. For the purposes of this project, we're assuming Psionics are the Same. For sanity's sake.
Concussion blast? Energy bolt?
Giving it a lot of telekinesis based abilities is a little redundant, as it can just use its PLAs to (often) greater effect. It's sortof like giving a blaster mage an at will energy attack.
Forcing it to be psionically focused to manifest PLAs is needlessly punishing.
The Psurlon doesn't really have a manifesting level. It has HD. Call the PLA use scaling based on HD.
Narrow mind?:smallconfused:

Medusa: Llllllooks good!

Unbodied, Razor Boar & Gargoyle will be finished soon.

Benly
2011-03-01, 05:23 PM
Inertial armor: Honestly don't see why you couldn't just have given that as a PLA.

He did. Then people complained it was overpowered.


Telekinetic blast: should scale by HD, not level. Also, it's a little powerful to give something the equivalent of a warlock's eldritch blast for a 1 level dip.

Not really. Eldritch blast in its basic form is terrible, and this doesn't give the options warlocks have for doing actual decent damage with it. The only reason I can see to dip for it might be on a rogue since it's a decent sneak attack vector.


Concussion blast? Energy bolt?

It had those. Someone thought it was overpowered. He changed it.


People are really scared of d6es for some reason. As I've said before, the average damage from the 5d6 Telekinetic Blast (or EB) deals at 9th level is equivalent to a 4th-level warrior power attacking, a 9th-level wizard using his reserve feat because the situation isn't worth his spells, or a warhorse full attacking. If anything, it needs to be better.

Dsmiles also needs to keep a better changelog, even though it's hilarious watching people complain about the lack of things the class used to have that got changed because someone else complained about them.

Hyudra
2011-03-01, 05:27 PM
Drow
http://i53.tinypic.com/31685cz.jpg
Monster Class
Monster Manual, SRD

Class
HD: D6

{table=head]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will |Special
1st|+0|+0|+2|+2| Drow Body, Caste, Scheme, Attribute Bonus
[/table]
Skill Points 6+Int per level
Class Skills: The Drow's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Appraise (Int), Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Decipher Script (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Forgery (Int), Gather Information (Cha), Hide (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (Taken individually, Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Profession (Wis), Search (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Spot (Wis), Tumble (Dex), Use Magic Device (Cha), and Use Rope (Dex).

Proficiencies: The Drow is proficient with simple weapons and with the rapier, hand crossbow and short sword. The Drow is proficient with light armor.

Drow Body: The Drow loses all other racial bonuses and gains Humanoid (Elf) traits, granting her Darkvision out to 120' and a bonus +2 on Will saves. Drow are initially medium sized creatures with a base movement speed of 30'.

Drow are light sensitive, and on initial exposure to bright light, they are blinded for 1 round and dazzled for 1d4 rounds. A Drow with a hood or Sundark goggles is not dazzled.

Drow speak Elven and either Undercommon or Drow Silent as their starting languages and gain additional languages for a high intelligence score as normal.

Attribute Bonus: The Drow gains +1 to her choice of Dex, Wis or Cha at first level.

Caste: The Drow picks a caste that fits his or her background, gaining the ability to leverage her cutthroat heritage to her advantage. Pick one:
Noble Caste:

The Noble Caste Drow is born to the upper ranks of a noble matriarchy, adept at navigating the labyrinthine political landscape of the underdark, imposing her will on others, and forcing them to do as she bids, whether they want to or not. the Drow condenses Diplomacy and Intimidate into a single skill, Blackmail, that she may draw from whenever either of the two skills is called for. If she already has ranks in either of those skills, she adds up the total ranks and puts them into Blackmail, moving any excess skill ranks into other skills, putting no more than two ranks into a given skill in the doing. Blackmail offers all the options of intimidate and diplomacy, with the added bonus that the demoralize action lasts 1d4 rounds if successful.

The Drow gains the ability to use poison without risking poisoning herself.

A Noble Caste Drow that demoralizes a foe within melee range can make an attack against that foe as a free action. A Drow Noble that successfully hits a foe suffering from the shaken condition (or any worse, fear-based status effect) can decide to either make that foe Frightened as the status condition for one round unless that foe can make a will save (DC 10 + ½ Drow HD + Drow's Cha). Alternately, with no save offered, the Drow may force a struck, shaken foe to make a 5' step to any space of that foe's choice that the Drow does not threaten, with the Drow being allowed a free 5' step to fill their now-vacant spot. The Drow is free to use her normal 5' step as she pleases. Finally, any time the Noble Caste Drow attacks an individual who had an attitude of friendly or better towards the Drow, she treats the attack as an unconfirmed critical hit.
Warrior Caste:

The Drow is trained to rigorously adapt cutthroat discipline to even esoteric or less militant schools of combat. She gains full BAB for levels in this class. Further, for every 4HD she gains, she may advance a single level of a 3/4 BAB class to full BAB.

The Warrior Caste Drow gains the ability to poison her weapons without risking poisoning herself.

Drow of the Warrior Caste may attempt to deflect an incoming spell. This is an immediate action that also sacrifices the Drow's swift action for their next turn. Should the Drow be wearing no armor or light armor, bear no shield and have an encumbrance of medium or less, she may attempt to deflect an incoming spell that explicitly targets only one creature (noted as Target: one creature in the spell details) and is directed at the Drow herself. Deflecting a spell has a 15% chance of success, or a success chance equal to the Drow's unmodified arcane spell failure chance, whichever is higher. If successful, the spell is deflected to another space 10' behind the Drow, with 'behind' defined as far side of the Drow in respect to the positioning of the offending caster. If this newly targeted space includes another enemy, that opponent is treated as though they were targeted by the spell. Should this ability fail, the Drow is affected by the spell as normal. By 'unmodified arcane spell failure chance', this ability refers to the base arcane spell failure chance of the armor, unaffected by other class features, spells or special materials.
Assassin Caste:

The Drow is schooled by some of the most adept masters of deception and elimination. She combines her Bluff, Sense Motive and Disguise skills into a single skill, dubbed 'Subterfuge', with her choice of either Wis or Cha used for skill checks with this new skill. If she already has ranks in any of those skills, she adds up the total ranks and puts them into Subterfuge, moving any excess skill ranks into other skills, putting no more than two ranks into a given skill in the doing. Whenever the Drow would be called upon to use any of the aforementioned skills, she uses Subterfuge instead.

The Drow gains the ability to apply poison without risking poisoning herself.

The Assassin Caste Drow specializes in striking at exposed targets. She (and only she) counts herself as flanking and gains a +1 dodge bonus against any foe that has no allies within 15' of it. Further, she gains the ability to make an attack of opportunity if a foe falling under the purview of this ability attempts to 5' step away from her. If she delivers damage with this attack of opportunity, the 5' step fails and the target remains where they are.
Mage Caste:

The Mage Caste Drow, typically male, are well practiced in fine academies and well taught in versatility by a merciless peerage. The Drow advances his spellcasting as though he took levels in Wizard or Sorcerer. Drow levels stack with levels in the chosen class for the purposes of determining spells known and spells per day, much in the same manner as a prestige class.

The Mage Caste allows the Drow to cast Faerie Fire, Dancing Lights and Darkness as spell like abilities once a day each per 4HD. The Drow can, when casting any spell of third level or higher, simultaneously expend and use one of the aforementioned SLAs on the same subject or area. For the purposes of Darkness, which has a touch range, the Mage Caste Drow may use any touch, ranged touch or ray attack to choose the origin point for the darkness effect.

The Mage Caste Drow cannot gain a familiar as a class feature from levels in any class, nor can he gain alternate class features that would replace it. He loses his familiar if it was already acquired from a previous source.
Devout Caste:

The Drow advances her spellcasting as though she took levels in Cleric or Favored Soul. Drow levels stack with levels in the chosen class for the purposes of determining spells known and spells per day, much in the same manner as a prestige class.

The Devout Caste Drow exchanges Turn Undead that she has or gains from class levels for Turn Spider (Underdark Drow) or Turn Scorpion (if Xen'Drik Drow). She may gain Turn Undead from a different source, such as another class with Turn Undead or a feat.
Casteless/Exile:

The Casteless/Exile Drow is either of such low standing in society that he is a slave, is of such low status as to nearly qualify as a slave, or has fled the trappings of Drow society. To better aid his retreats from his capricious enemies and/or masters, the Casteless/Exile Drow does not provoke attacks of opportunity for the first 5' of his movement. For every 5HD after the first, the Drow increases this distance by 5', to a maximum of his base land speed.

Ironically, without the benefit of the complex system of checks, balances, backstabs and blades held at one's another's throats that defines drow society, the Casteless/Exile Drow is exceedingly vulnerable. Should the drow persevere regardless, this harrowing array of experiences can benefit them in the long run as they gain a tenacity and experience that sets them above their more spoiled peers. The Drow is regularly subjected to an attack or ploy set against them by their enemies from the society that looms above them (or in their past, for an Exile). This is an encounter with a CR equal to the Drow's HD, arriving at a time when the Drow is forced to face it alone, occurring when the Drow is close to gaining a level. The Drow cannot gain a level until it has defeated the challenge set against him for that level. The Drow gains full experience for defeating the challenge alone, if successful.

DM's discretion as to what constitutes an appropriate encounter - Casteless Drow in the underdark are liable to face threats from other drow or drow allies. Exile Drow far from the Underdark (insofar as such is possible, the Underdark is almost always underground somewhere) are likely to face threats from assassins or hired mercenaries. Mercy is rarely offered or accepted.
Scheme: The Drow are cunning, chaotic manipulators, and every Drow spends long minutes, hours or days debating how best to deal with a given rival, superior or tenacious subservient. To these ends, a Drow that spends a full round doing nothing but observing a foe may select a feat that she meets the prerequisites for. With a plan in mind, the Drow gains that feat for the purposes of dealing with that foe only. Any benefits granted are applied only to attacks, skills and abilities used against that foe, or defenses against that foe. Only one feat may be acquired from Scheme at a given point in time, and such feats with their ensuing benefits end when the Drow and the targeted foe part ways, one way or another (murder being a not uncommon end result). The Drow may not use this ability to acquire a feat she has used in the past 24 hours.

Feats with a temporary benefit or a certain number of uses a day (including feats that grant spells or spell like abilities, feats that grant extra ability uses, or feats that grant only a certain number of rounds of use a day) or feats that augment abilities with limited uses a day (such as metamagic feats, which augment spells) are not allowed choices for use of Scheme. Leadership and Epic feats are similarly barred for use.

Comments
This was a bit of a challenge. I also reduced it from 2 levels to just the one midway through (I'd been looking at LA, erroneously, rather than CR), which made it even more challenging.

In any event, to cover the broad variety of Drow, and to encourage gameplay that fit the various Drow approaches to life, I set up the Caste system, above. Pick what applies to your background, it should feel fairly Drow in any event. Casters don't get much in the way of goodies, and trade off class features to get the more 'drowish' stuff, but they do get casting, which is the best class feature in the game. I may need to tweak the drawbacks to be a touch more severe, or to balance the devout caste drawback against the mage caste drawback.

The Scheme, then, is a tricky thing. I used the general template of the Assassin's death attack, but made it grant a feat, instead. So you essentially can watch, figure out what you want to do, then customize your approach for the attack, or to account for enemy weaknesses. Flexibility at the cost of efficiency. I think it fits the chaotic, conniving mindset of the Drow.

Is it too strong a one level dip? I dunno, but I think it's balanced against the fact that you're not getting your full complement of racial bonuses, you're vulnerable to sunlight (though you can adapt, you'll always have a reason to wince if you step out of a dungeon into daylight, or if someone causes a flash of light in front of you) and whatever approach you inevitably pick, there's some dilution due to the level's broad, nonspecific direction in HP, skillpoints, etc.

Changelog
Changes, March 1, 2011:
Removed the scaling dazzle. You're now dazzled for one round afterwards, and even that is removed if you have a hood or sundark goggles.
Removed the 2 round diplomacy from Noble Caste Drow, where you could use diplomacy with two consecutive rounds of swift actions in combat.
Warrior caste drow no longer convert any and all ¾ BAB classes to full BAB. Instead, for every 4 HD you get, you can change a level of ¾ BAB class to have full BAB instead. This lets you dip in a ¾ BAB class (monk, rogue, hexblade) without gimping your BAB, which was the goal.
Mage caste drow now work the other way around. Use a cantrip alongside a level 3 spell, faerie fire alongside a level 5 or darkness alongside a level 7 (with restrictions).
Devout caste drow no longer gains wild empathy (vermin) in exchange for her level 0 spells, but now exchanges turn undead for turn spider (or scorpion if xen'drik drow).
Changes, March 2nd, 2011:
Fixed vague Knowledge under class skills.
Fixed singular vs. plural Drow is/are appearing in the same sentence under proficiencies.
Added Drow Silent under language options.
Changed wording under attribute bonus.
Clarified wording under Warrior Caste.
Assassin Caste now specifies that the bonus only applies to the Drow herself.
Devout Caste now specifies that the Drow can gain turn undead from another class or source.
Casteless Exile wording fixed, where sentence was both grammatically incorrect and misleading.
Casteless Exile drow now get the ability to ignore AoOs for their first 10' 5' of movement, this extends with every 5HD.
Removed semicolon in Scheming. I'll use a semicolon and have it stick, one of these days!
Changes, March 5th, 2011:
Nerfed the cower option of the Drow Noble's 'attack a shaken foe' bit to make them frightened instead. Gave the 'force the enemy to make a 5' step' option a slight buff, in that the enemy can't 5' step to a square the Noble threatens.
Drow Warrior - clarified what 'sole target' means for the spell targeting. Namely, that you can only deflect spells that explicitly state "Target: one creature" (more or less) in the spell details.
Not up to messing with mage caste ability for wording, as I'm all worded out.
As for the scheme & metamagic Gorgon's begging for, I can't think of a way to do it that doesn't make things really annoying or complicated as far as metamagics that affect effective spell levels and whatnot.
Changes, March 23rd, 2011:
Reworded Mage caste so it now just lets you append any SLA you have available to any spell of 3rd level or higher. (Before, had a complex method where each SLA was only available for use with spells of a minimum level).

ScionoftheVoid
2011-03-01, 05:37 PM
Gargoyle:
Only half con mod natural armor? Seriously? I'd expect 1.5x, if anything different from the norm.:smallconfused:
Give 'em intimidate as a class skill.
Wicked talons: 2 sets of natural weapons (as in a claw and a bite) or just 2 natural weapons? Could someone do 1 of 2 claws and one bite?
You have a lot of abilities with "body" in the name. This should be altered, as "body" abilities are usually specifically the base, well, body abilities.
Zealous carvings: that's effectively doubling bad saves. I'd either reduce it to 1 save or to something like 1/5th HD.
Hideous Visage: Ehhh... I'd make it a standard action. You can pump intimidate easily.
Reflective Scales: hopy **** this just became the best stealth class ever. You're effectively duplicating an 8th level spell (superior invisibility). Hell, if this blocks against stuff like true seeing even, then it's better than an 8th level spell.
Petrification: "plus one point for each five points of the target's natural armour. The creature struck gains one point of natural armour bonus for each point of Dex damage they have taken from this ability." Ummm... that's... kindof needless. Interesting, but I wouldn't do it.
Deluge Waterspout: closest unoccupied edge?
Anyways, it's pretty much better than a dragon's breath weapon at 14 HD. Less range, I suppose, but that's it- knocking prone is a good effect. I'd add the damage at a lower level- 9, maybe- and make it 1d6/3 HD, then up to 1d6/2 HD at 18 HD or so. Something like that.
Horrendous Visage: Too low DC. 5+ranks+cha mod would be a little better.
"If they fail the save they are immune to the gaze unless they leave the area and re-enter or the gaze is actively focused on them."
What?:smallconfused: Just use standard gaze wording. See marraenoloth. Beyond that, why would anyone choose shaken over frightened? Or, better yet, frightened over panicked?
Statuesque Perfection: Chiseled armaments or chiseled armoury?
Stone cold metabolism: Might want to just say "is considered an object for all intents and purposes". Something like that.
Otherwise: *thumbsup*

First, that's because the Tough Skin ability can raise it. I'll hold back on an edit here until I have some input on how to adjust both of them. Raise both, keep as-is, raise base only?

Whoops.:smallredface:

Just two, often two of the same.

They're generally options within a larger ability, but I'll try to change a few soon.

One save it is.

Done.

Would it be strong enough if I removed super-invis? I'm guessing yes and changing it, but I can change it back.

Petrification, to clarify I should remove both features? It was weak only raising natural armour and would be rather strong with just the boost.

Deluge Waterspout doesn't knock prone:smallconfused: (it's a direct push back, not knocking them off their feet) so I'll leave a damage change for after a response, and I'll add "unoccupied".

And, I've run out of time. I'll wait for response and come back to this ASAP. Thanks for the advice and help.

TheGeckoKing
2011-03-01, 05:45 PM
The Drow; (Because I feel like being helpful)

First up? Looks cool enough to play, but you need to ban Leadership with regards to Scheme. Summoning an army at will to beat up your foes seems funny, but is clearly broken. Hell, the entire idea screams broken to me. Ban Leadership and Epic Feats, at the very least.
Next, the light sensitivity seems like a bit of a pain to track, but each to their own.
Lastly, I don't like Exile/Casteless one bit. It's basically "YOU SUCK, and we're charging for the privilege!". Throw 'em a bone, at the very least.

Hyudra
2011-03-01, 05:45 PM
Front Page (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=182724)
Updated the unfinished monster list to include phantom, greenbound and drow.
Goblins are removed and will be brought up in the homebrew thread in a little bit.
Flesh golem moved to the abandoned list. I keep meaning to do that.
Gray Jester and Remorhaz are liable to be moved to the abandoned list in the coming week, as they've been unupdated with no creator comments in the thread for nearly a month.

Leadership & Epic feats barred, now.

As far as the casteless/exile drow: they should just suck it up. It's bonus experience. There's no way I'm gonna make life easy on the Drizz't clones.

Mystic Muse
2011-03-01, 05:49 PM
One thing I notice on the Drow is that the Noble caste option makes Diplomacy even more broken than it already was.

Hyudra
2011-03-01, 05:53 PM
One thing I notice on the Drow is that the Noble caste option makes Diplomacy even more broken than it already was.

There's some parts of the game where I just assume that there's some houserule or common sense in place, whenever I approach or refer to it. Diplomacy is one such aspect.

I mean, I could enforce Rich Burlew's diplomacy rules for Blackmail, but that's really bizarre. Conversely, just ignoring diplomacy entirely is similarly bizarre for a noble character.

Mystic Muse
2011-03-01, 05:55 PM
There's some parts of the game where I just assume that there's some houserule or common sense in place, whenever I approach or refer to it. Diplomacy is one such aspect.

I mean, I could enforce Rich Burlew's diplomacy rules for Blackmail, but that's really bizarre. Conversely, just ignoring diplomacy entirely is similarly bizarre for a noble character.

I know, I just thought I would bring it up as a concern.

NineThePuma
2011-03-01, 06:35 PM
And suddenly, this is my new diplomancer class.

I like it, though I haven't read through every last detail.

I will soon tho.

Scio
2011-03-01, 07:01 PM
Hey, where'd the Goblin go? I thought it was an interesting class, but I can't find it on the normal or homebrew versions of this thread.
EDIT: Never mind. I found it, but it's no longer on any of the lists. What gives?

mootoall
2011-03-01, 07:07 PM
There's also the incorporeal subtype at level 1. That breaks the game right off the bat.

Didn't give it at level 1, by the way. It doesn't come 'til 16 HD.

Hyudra
2011-03-01, 07:42 PM
Hey, where'd the Goblin go? I thought it was an interesting class, but I can't find it on the normal or homebrew versions of this thread.
EDIT: Never mind. I found it, but it's no longer on any of the lists. What gives?

As I said in an earlier post, I'm moving it to the homebrew section after a few revisions, because I more or less agree with Gorgon that it's less of a monster class than an experiment.

Mystic Muse
2011-03-01, 07:59 PM
Monster retracted until further notice.

Psyborg
2011-03-01, 08:10 PM
No Pic? Here's two possibilities:
*snipped*

Resized and added. Thanks.

Also tweaked and rewrote a bunch of stuff to eliminate some fairly obvious abuse possibilities. Finishing the symbionts is going to have to wait a few days, so no serious critiques are really possible yet. If, however, you happen to notice anything obvious that needs fixing, feel free to let me know.

While we're on the subject of critiques, though, I'd like to point out that I am, in my own estimation, way too new at this to have anything particularly valuable to say in critique of other people's work. On the other hand, I don't expect people to critique my stuff and then not do anything for them. So I'd like to throw out an offer:

I will, upon request, proofread any monster class for spelling, grammar, punctuation, capitalization, formatting, and general typographical errors. I will correct them, changing nothing else unless grammatically unavoidable (and noting where I have done so in the changelog), and send you the revised post (BBCode and all) by PM. You can then simply edit the post containing your monster class and replace its current contents with a direct copy-paste from my PM.

And then the more experienced critiquers won't need to waste their time nitpicking little tiny typos.

I'm not offering this service specifically in exchange for critiques- i.e., you don't have to critique my stuff (heck, it's not even ready yet) in order for me to proofread your class. What I am doing is offering to help out the rest of the project in general with what I can do well, and hoping (assuming, actually- I've been watching the thread for long enough to get the general impression that y'all are decent folks) that the project in general will, in turn, do what they can to help me.

Sound good?

My computer access is somewhat limited during the latter half of the week, but I should be able to complete requested proofreads within a day or so on Mon-Tues-Wed, and within a few days during the rest of the week (not going to nail myself down to specifics on this one, but by the end of the next Monday at the latest).

Hope this is helpful to someone.

Hyudra
2011-03-01, 08:45 PM
Thank you, Psyborg, that sounds really useful. I'm generally nitpicky about that stuff, and I know one or two people (at least) were getting a little frustrated.

Geiger Counter
2011-03-01, 08:59 PM
from monsters of faerun
deepspawn- a podpeople inspirded aberation
doppleganger, greater- braineating/memory absorbing doppleganger
sharn- pure chaos possibly even predating dragons

NineThePuma
2011-03-01, 09:02 PM
Those supposed to be request, Geigar?

Geiger Counter
2011-03-01, 09:04 PM
Those supposed to be request, Geigar?
yes I would appreciate that

Zemro
2011-03-01, 09:08 PM
Justice Archon (Monster Manual IV, pg.80)

https://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/mm4_gallery/98693.jpg

Class
Hit Die: d10

{table=head]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Abilities|Attribute Increase

1|
+1|
+2|
+0|
+2|Justice Archon's Body, Eyes of the Judge, Justice Strike|+1 Cha
2|
+2|
+3|
+0|
+3|Quarry, Aura of Menace|+1 Dex
3|
+3|
+3|
+1|
+3|Archon's Wards, Justice Brand|+1 Cha
4|
+4|
+4|
+1|
+4|Retributive Fate, Harry|+1 Cha
5|
+5|
+4|
+1|
+4|Aura of Protection, Archon's Wings|+1 Dex
6|
+6/+1|
+5|
+2|
+5|Warp, Pursuit|+1 Cha[/table]

Skill Points at 1st Level: (4 + Int Mod) x 4
Skill Points at each additional Level: 4 + Int Mod

Class Skills: The Justice Archon's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Balance (Dex), Concentration (Con), Diplomacy (Cha), Heal (Wis), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (Local) (Int), Knowledge (Religion) (Int), Knowledge (The Planes) (Int), Listen (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), and Spot (Wis).

Proficiencies: Justice Archons are proficient with all simple and martial weapons, all armour (heavy, medium, and light) and shields (excluding tower shields).

Justice Archon Body: A Justice Archon loses all other racial characteristics and becomes a creature of the Outsider type with the following traits:
Medium Size
Base Land Speed: 30ft
Darkvision 60ft
Low-Light Vision
+4 racial bonus to saves against petrification
Immunity to poison
Automatic Languages: Common and Celestial
Additionally, the Justice Archon gains the Archon subtype, but the benefits of this class replace the ones normally granted by the Archon subtype.

Attribute Increase: The Justice Archon receives +1 Cha at 1st, 3rd, 4th and 6th levels and +1 Dex at 2nd and 5th levels, for a total of +4 Cha and +2 Dex at 6th level.

Eyes of the Judge (Su): The Justice Archon can gaze upon mortals to see their sins. Concentrating on a target she can see, the Justice Archon may divine the subject's crimes. Each round spent studying the target provides information:
1st Round: The Justice Archon sees the degree of crimes the subject has committed, and the degree to which they have been punished. The degree of the crimes is based upon the subject's lawfulness, and the degree of punishment upon the repercussions' severity in relation to the crime. In either case, information is in general terms.
2nd Round: The Justice Archon learns the most recent crime the subject committed. This is typically mild, such as theft, attacking someone from behind, or a simple lie with malicious intent. She may view the crime as it was committed, as though she were a third party present and watching. Additionally, she learns the exact details of any punishment received and/or atonement sought.
3rd Round: The Justice Archon learns of the most serious crime the subject committed in their lifetime. Again, she may view the crime as if she were there as it took place. She may also see if attempts were made to atone for the crime, or punishments already received, and what they were.
4th Round (and subsequent): The Justice Archon may view the second most recent crime, or second gravest crime. Once either of those have been seen, she can work her way back to the third, fourth, etc, but she must view them in order and receives the same amount of detail as above in regards to punishment and atonement.
If the target has confessed of a crime they committed to the Justice Archon, or the Archon wishes to view an already known or previously viewed crime they may choose to view that crime instead of the most recent on the second round of concentration. If she desires, the Justice Archon may spend more then one round viewing a specific crime, its details, and those of the punishment and atonement, if any.

In game terms, a 'crime' is an act with ill intent and/or an act disrupting or against the natural order of things. Deliberate acts are usually considered more severe, while accidental or uncontrollable circumstances are less so. As such, it is potentially possible for a lie or incest to qualify as a heavier crime than murder, depending on the consequences, the malice involved and the repercussions. As their viewpoint is that of an observer they might witness details or facts the target is unaware of, have forgotten, or convinced were different.

Justice Strike (Su): Sometimes the best punishment to inflict upon a guilty target is that which it inflicts upon others. Whenever a Justice Archon hits with a melee attack, she may activate this ability as a free action. When activated this ability replaces the Archon's melee damage with that of the most damaging regular melee attack the target has available to it. Manufactured weapons are only considered available if being actively wielded by the target, and natural weapons are always considered available. This damage includes effects that apply automatically on a hit, such as energy damage or poison, but not those from optional effects or feats, such as Power Attack. As a supernatural ability, damage from this ability ignores DR.

While using this ability the Archon counts as being armed if she is striking with her unarmed strike.

Quarry (Su): Justice Archons excel at tracking and taking down one foe at a time; their current target is referred to as their quarry. As a swift action, an Archon of second level can designate a target within sight as their quarry, so long as they have witnessed the target commit a crime (either in person or with their Eyes of the Judge ability) and/or attack the Archon and her allies. Once designated, the quarry remains as such until they die, the Archon designates a new quarry, or the quarry evades the Archon's sight for 1 day per HD of the Archon.

A Justice Archon can always identify her quarry by sight, even if the target has attempted to change it's appearance (like with the disguise skill, or transmutation and illusion effects). If they are on the same plane she knows the general direction (to the nearest cardinal or ordinal direction) and approximate distance to her quarry, the precision of this knowledge depends on the overall distance between them.
She knows the distance up to the nearest 50ft if she's within 500ft.
Up to the nearest 500ft if within a mile.
Up to the nearest mile if within 10 miles.
And further distances follow the same pattern.
She can also ignore the miss chance from abilities based on displacing one's position (such as mirror image or displacement, but nor blur or invisibility) when attacking her target.

A quarry that fails their save against the Archon's Aura of Menace is shaken for as long as they suffer the aura's penalties. At 10HD they are shaken even if normally immune to fear effects.

Aura of Menace (Su): A Justice Archon of second level can project their anger and fury into a supernatural aura to shake the confidence of her foes. This aura activates automatically whenever the Archon makes a melee attack or uses a Rage-like ability, forcing all opponents within 30ft to make a Will Save (DC = 10 + 1/2 HD + Cha modifier) or take a -1 penalty to AC and saves until they deal damage to the Archon with a melee attack. For every 5HD the Archon has, the penalty increases by -1 and the radius increases by 10ft.

The Archon can also choose to activate this aura when making an Intimidate check, in which case a target that fails the save against Aura of Menace takes the aura's penalty to their opposed roll.

Regardless of how it was activated, the aura lasts until the Archon goes five rounds without attacking or making an intimidate check. Alternatively the Archon can calm their aura down by taking a full-round action and making a Concentration check (DC 10 + 1/2 their HD).

Archon's Wards (Ex): At third level a Justice Archon becomes more in tune with their heritage, gaining the resilience associated with such beings. They gain DR/alignment equal to half their HD. Good Archons gain DR/Evil, Evil Archons DR/Good, and Neutral Archons choose one of either. Against their Quarry, treat this as DR/-.

They also gain spell resistance (11 + HD) and resistance to electricity equal to twice their Hit Dice. The latter becomes immunity to electricity at 10HD.

Justice Brand (Su): For some, the thought of punishment under the law is not deterrent enough, and in those cases a Justice Archon of third level can provide additional incentive. As a standard action once per day (Plus an additional time per 5 HD) the Archon may request the surrender of a single creature within sight, marking them with a glowing brand effecting them as per the spell Faerie Fire (CL=HD) with the colour of the glow dependent on the Archon alignment (Good: Blue, Neutral: Green, Evil: Violet).

While under the effects of the brand, each time the target makes an attack, uses a hostile spell or ability, or commits a crime they take damage equal to the Archon's Charisma modifier (or twice that if they are of a different alignment than the Archon).

However, should the target honestly accept the offer of surrender they are considered both prisoner and ward of the Justice Archon. Creatures that attack or target it with hostile spells or abilities are subject to the brand's damage, and it may attack them in defense without penalty. In this instance the ability instead lasts until the branded target can be turned over to the proper authorities, and automatically consumes a use of this ability each day it lasts.

Additionally the Justice Archon's weapons are considered to be aligned with an alignment of the Archon's own, this is an extraordinary ability..

Harry (Ex): The more a foe has to focus on protecting themselves from a Justice Archon, the less they can focus on attacking her. By fourth level they have developed techniques to keep the pressure on their opponents. While they remain within her threatened area, opponents cannot cast defensively or regain their psionic focus. Other abilities that require the concentration skill take a penalty on their rolls equal to half the Archon's HD.

If the quarry of an Archon with this ability leaves her threatened area she may take an immediate action to move up to half her speed after the quarry. If the Archon ends her movement within reach of her quarry she may make a single melee attack, which counts against her limit of Attacks of Opportunity for that round. This movement provokes attacks of opportunity as normal.

Retributive Fate (Su): Justice Archons of fourth level have tapped further into their archon powers, gaining an ability to make them hardier against opponent employing special attacks. Activating this ability requires a swift action and can be used a number of times per day equal to her HD divided by 4. Each use of this ability lasts for a number of rounds equal to her HD divided by four.

Once activated this ability increases the Archon's spell resistance, saving throws, and armour class by an amount equal to her charisma modifier for its duration. During this period of time, the first time an ability or attack fails against the Archon because of this bonuses, it looses the to that specific quality and the ability's user becomes the target instead. Against volley attacks (Such as a Ranger with Manyshot or Wizard with Scorching Ray) the Archon retains the bonus against all the attack rolls made as a part of it, but can still only reflect back one attack.

For example, A Justice Archon has finally caught up with her quarry, a CE Bard responsible for a series of murder and disappearances. Expected trouble, she activates her Retributive Fate ability before bursting into his hideout. The Bard was expecting her however an unleashes a casting of Hold Monster upon her. The DC against the Bard's spell is 23, and the Archon rolls a 24 beating it thanks to the +5 bonus her charisma provided thanks to this ability. She Hold Monster requires a Will save, she looses the +5 bonus to her Will saves for the abilities remaining duration.

Aura of Protection (Su): As a swift action, a Justice Archon of fifth level can activate or deactivate a soothing aura of calm protection with the same range as their aura of Menace. The Archon and allies within this aura gain the benefits of a Protection from Alignment spell with the Archon choosing one aspect of their alignment and protecting against the opposite. So a Lawful Good Justice Archon could provide protection from either Chaos or Evil. Additionally, enemies within the aura must make a Will save (DC 10 + 1/2 HD + Cha modifier) in order to benefit from abilities requiring extreme emotional states, such as a Barbarian's Rage.

A Justice Archon cannot use this ability while her Aura of Menace is active. Likewise, her Aura of Menace cannot activate while her Aura of Protection is active.

Archon's Wings (Ex): At fifth level a Justice Archon's wings become strong enough to bear her aloft. She gains a Fly speed of 30ft, with Good maneuverability. Her wings continue to strengthen, increases this speed by 5ft for each Hit Die she possesses above five, to a maximum of 60ft at 11HD.

Stronger wings also benefit the Justice Archon in other ways. At 10HD she can treat her worn armour as one category lighter in regards to how much it limits her fly speed. At 15HD she can treat it as two categories lighter, and at 20HD she ignores penalties to her fly speed for wearing any armour. Her armour's check penalty still applies, and her speed is still limited as normal for carrying a medium or heavier load.

Warp (Sp): At sixth level a Justice Archon unlocks the ability to move herself rapidly between places. She gains Dimension Door as a Spell-Like Ability usable 1/day per 3HD with a Caster level equal to her Hit Dice. When using her Harry ability to follow her quarry, she may spend a use of this ability and simply teleport the intervening distance.

At 9HD she can spend a use of this ability to Teleport instead, as per the spell.

At 11HD she can spend two uses of this ability to use Plane Shift instead.

At 15HD her Teleport improves to Greater Teleport, and Plane Shift now only requires one use.

Pursuit (Ex): A Justice Archon of sixth level is relentless in the pursuit of her targets. She gains Combat Reflexes as a bonus feat. If she already has it, the number of attacks of opportunity she is allowed per round increases by 50%, to her Dex modifier x 1.5 (rounded down). Additionally, she may use her Harry ability to follow any creature leaving her threatened area, not just her quarry.

Should her quarry use a teleportation effect, she may spend a use of her Warp ability as a free action to follow along. She appears beside her quarry at the destination and may immediately make an attack of opportunity against it. The target is considered flat-footed against this attack. The Justice Archon must be able to perceive her quarry when it uses the teleportation effect in order to follow along. This is considered a supernatural ability.

Changelog
March 1st, 2011
Originally Posted
Forgot ability boosts entry with the totals and such.
Minor spell corrections
Detect Guilt removed
Eyes of the Judge added at first level
March 6th
Added Knowledge (Religion) as a class skill.
Further clarified which attacks are available to substitute in for Justice Strike's damage.
Smoothed out wording for Aura of Menace and made a spelling correction.
Clarified the level gained in Aligned Strike's ability text.
Minor wording corrections to Archon's wards.
Spelling corrections made to Quarry.
Clarified Quarry's duration and what counts for witnessing a crime.
The shaken effect for Aura of Menace and Quarry targets clarified. Aura of Protection's benefits clarified.
March 7th
Reworked Quarry's base benefits.
Toned Shared Fate down by making it less absolute.
Halved uses per day on Warp, and made it self only.
March 9th
Proofread and tweaked by Psyborg. In addition to minor corrections of typos and formatting, the following non-trivial alterations were made:
Pursuit (Combat Reflexes/increased AoO limit section): Wording slightly altered. Functionality unchanged.
Pursuit (Warp section): Specified that the Justice Archon must be able to perceive her quarry in order to follow along when it uses a teleportation effect, to prevent an Archon suddenly becoming aware of and teleporting to her quarry's location from another plane just because the quarry used an anklet of translocation to teleport ten feet.
<end Psyborg's stuff. Excellent work; there was very little to fix.>
Zemro made the following changes:
Tweaked pursuit wording so that the bonus feat doesn't disappear in an anti-magic field (as that's rather weird). Categorized the ability as Ex, and then specified the section related to Warp to be Su.
Made a few spelling and formatting corrections that slipped through the cracks.

March 16th
Shared fate now runs off of uses per day, and functions slightly differently.
March 18th
Altered how Archon to determines the approximate distance to her quarry.
March 24th
Changed looses to loses in the body ability.
Wording corrections made to the portion of Quarry devoted to located her target.
March 29th
Small tweaks made to Eyes of the Judge to further clarify its intent.
Archon's Wards now grants Spell Resistance, just like the base monster has.
Shared Fate replaced with a new ability: Retributive Fate.
Retributive Fate temporarily increases her defenses and allows her to sacrifice the bonus to reflect an attack back.
April 3rd
Reworded the section of Justice strike dealing with unarmed attacks.
Corrected an errant spelling of 'menace' in Aura of Menace.
Specified Caster Level on SLAs from Warp.
Altered Warp to start with Dimension Door, improving to Teleport at 9HD, and then progressing as normal.
Removed weight limits and decreased uses per day on Warp.
Altered Harry's passive benefits slightly.
Moved Quarry up to second level, Aligned Strike down to third.
Changed listed order of abilities slightly, and their wordings to reflect new positions.
Aligned Strike replaced with Justice Brand, retaining the same passive effect but adding an on-use component.
Slightly shifted the placement of a few formatting tags, making it so that the colon was consistently placed inside the bold tags on ability names. Previously it was inside on some and outside on others.
April 26th
Monster Class Projected Terminated, class is assumed completed until moved somewhere else.
Comment section outdated and no longer needed, has been removed pending a new comment section based on the class's current status.

Mystic Muse
2011-03-01, 09:09 PM
yes I would appreciate that

I'll give you the traditional warning so that Hyudra doesn't have to. We already have a lot of monsters each of us are doing, we're kind of backed up, and if you want the class done soon, you better just do them yourself.

mootoall
2011-03-01, 09:29 PM
Just a comment about Justice Strike- I'm assuming that this ability allows you to deal the damage that your opponent is capable of doing right now, with its current weapons, etc. But that's not the only way to interpret it. I, for example, could say "Well, yeah, that Collossal dragon isn't carrying weapons, but it *could* do even more damage with a Collossal Fullblade!" I'd recommend clearing that up. Also, give it uses per day. Otherwise, by Hyudra's definition, it's not an "active" ability, because you will be using it every time your opponent is bigger than you. Otherwise, nice, fun, flavorful ability!

Hyudra
2011-03-01, 09:44 PM
I'll give you the traditional warning so that Hyudra doesn't have to. We already have a lot of monsters each of us are doing, we're kind of backed up, and if you want the class done soon, you better just do them yourself.

Provided they're shorter/smaller classes. Don't tackle a 15 level (max level in the class = CR) class yourself. That's not fun for you (taking 3+ weeks to get it done, respond to all the critiques, figure out how we do things) or us (having to hold your hand every step of the way through the aforementioned steps).

flabort
2011-03-01, 10:00 PM
Not much, but in the Greenbound class, you may want to read over the Mettle feature. Specifically, look at which class is mentioned in the description.
currently the mystic warrior loses the ability while sleeping, but the greenbound does not. You may want to fix that, but it's just a minor thing.

Hyudra
2011-03-01, 10:02 PM
@ the detect alignment thing, an idea:

Eye of the Judge:

The Justice Archon can gaze upon mortals to see their sins. Concentrating on a target she can see, the Justice Archon may divine the subject's crimes. Each round spent studying the target provides information:
1st Round: The Justice Archon sees the degree of crimes the subject has committed, contrasted by their lawfulness.
2nd Round: The Justice Archon learns of most recent crime the subject committed. This is typically mild, ranging from theft, attacking someone from behind to a simple lie with malicious intent. She may view the crime as it was committed, as though she were a third party, watching.
3rd Round: The Justice Archon learns of the most serious crime the subject committed in their lifetime. Again, she may view the crime as if she were there as it took place. She may also see if attempts were made to atone for the crime, and what they were.
4th Round, etc: The Justice Archon may view the second most recent crime, or second gravest crime. Once either of those have been seen, she can work her way back to the third, fourth, etc, but she must view them in order
In game terms, a 'crime' is an act with ill intent and/or an act against the natural order of things. As such, it is potentially possible for a lie or incest to qualify as a heavier crime than murder, depending on the consequences, the malice involved and the repercussions.

Zemro
2011-03-01, 10:07 PM
Just a comment about Justice Strike- I'm assuming that this ability allows you to deal the damage that your opponent is capable of doing right now, with its current weapons, etc. But that's not the only way to interpret it. I, for example, could say "Well, yeah, that Collossal dragon isn't carrying weapons, but it *could* do even more damage with a Collossal Fullblade!" I'd recommend clearing that up.

I honestly cannot figure out which portion of the ability is giving you that impression. So, if you could highlight the section that's giving you that misinterpretation, that'd be swell.

I can see some situation were things might become complicated, but nothing seems to scream 'potential damage' instead of 'actual damage' to me. So you'll have to point it out.


Also, give it uses per day. Otherwise, by Hyudra's definition, it's not an "active" ability, because you will be using it every time your opponent is bigger than you. Otherwise, nice, fun, flavorful ability!

I'm going to stick to my guns on the usage of this ability, as its effectiveness is completely dependant on the game you're playing in and what you're fighting. Bigger doesn't necessarily mean they'll have a better melee attack, a quick glance through the monster manual turned up plenty of large creatures who would deal less damage with their best attack than you would with a greatsword and 18 starting strength.

Now, yes, there are big enough creatures that you may not be out damaging normally, but you can buff your attack with feats and enchantments. You're only getting their basic attack, essentially weapon damage plus strength modifier. Sometimes that'll be better, sometimes it won't.

It wasn't really intended to be an 'active' ability, and past gaming experiences have shown that more often and not the highest damaging monsters are like that because of multiple attacks rather than single damaging ones. The boosting is situational, and overall I don't think it'll be hugely significant, and thus don't think it warrants being capped at uses per day.



@ the detect alignment thing, an idea:

Eye of the Judge:

The Justice Archon can gaze upon mortals to see their sins. Concentrating on a target she can see, the Justice Archon may divine the subject's crimes. Each round spent studying the target provides information:
1st Round: The Justice Archon sees the degree of crimes the subject has committed, contrasted by their lawfulness.
2nd Round: The Justice Archon learns of most recent crime the subject committed. This is typically mild, ranging from theft, attacking someone from behind to a simple lie with malicious intent. She may view the crime as it was committed, as though she were a third party, watching.
3rd Round: The Justice Archon learns of the most serious crime the subject committed in their lifetime. Again, she may view the crime as if she were there as it took place. She may also see if attempts were made to atone for the crime, and what they were.
4th Round, etc: The Justice Archon may view the second most recent crime, or second gravest crime. Once either of those have been seen, she can work her way back to the third, fourth, etc, but she must view them in order
In game terms, a 'crime' is an act with ill intent and/or an act against the natural order of things. As such, it is potentially possible for a lie or incest to qualify as a heavier crime than murder, depending on the consequences, the malice involved and the repercussions.

Hmm, something like that sounds pretty good. I'll make some tweaks and incorporate it.

mootoall
2011-03-01, 10:22 PM
Ah, I missed the word "regular" in there. Still, might want to make it more specific. In fact, I'm a bit unclear- are you copying their melee damage dice, or the average of their regular attack? Because it might actually be more fitting to make it copy the exact damage dealt to you. That way it feels more like retribution when they hit your ally with a crit, and then you hit back to avenge them with the same amount of force ...


Edit: And Hyudra, while you're giving out potential abilities, would you care to suggest something for the Unbodied? Again, I don't have any ideas for a fourth level one, and I could desperately use someone more creative than me's assistance. Just a quick lookthrough and a fitting, preferably manipulative/social ability would make me really happy.

Gorgondantess
2011-03-01, 11:01 PM
He did. Then people complained it was overpowered/It had those. Someone thought it was overpowered. He changed it.
Do tell me who this whistleblower is so that I can smack them in the face for being an uptight guy in a monkey suit.
...Or something like that.


Not really. Eldritch blast in its basic form is terrible, and this doesn't give the options warlocks have for doing actual decent damage with it. The only reason I can see to dip for it might be on a rogue since it's a decent sneak attack vector.

Yes, but this is eldritch blast... with so much more!
It isn't affected by SR. It has 100% effectiveness against incorporeal/ethereal creatures. It doesn't provoke AoOs. And it apparently has a range of "if you can see them, you can hit them".
It's not that it's horribly powerful. It's that it's horribly reliable.
It's also pretty boring and should likely be scrapped entirely.


People are really scared of d6es for some reason. As I've said before, the average damage from the 5d6 Telekinetic Blast (or EB) deals at 9th level is equivalent to a 4th-level warrior power attacking, a 9th-level wizard using his reserve feat because the situation isn't worth his spells, or a warhorse full attacking. If anything, it needs to be better.
I've said the exact same rant. Or, similar enough.
"OMG 10d6 SO POWERFUL!!!"
"Ummm... yeah, 35 damage."
"..."


Dsmiles also needs to keep a better changelog, even though it's hilarious watching people complain about the lack of things the class used to have that got changed because someone else complained about them.
Not to those who are critiquing it.

Drow:
Ugh. Can you just not do the whole dazzling thing? There's a 10 gp item that negates it entirely: sundark goggles, RotD page 123.
Noble caste: Drop the diplomacy time reduction. Jegus, it'll still be plenty powerful at the end of the day without it.
Warrior Caste:
BEST. DIP. EVARRR!
Seriously, this thing could gish it up like no other. The new avenues of gishiness it gets are mindboggling. Or just make it a factotum/rogue/swordsage class.
Seriously, though, Warrior caste drow1/insert fullcaster here 4/unseen seer 10 is pretty amazing. Buckets of skillpoints, +13 BAB at 15th level, 14th level casting at 15th level, decent sneak attack dice, some other nifty abilities... Yowzers. I mean, I'm almost tempted to allow this because it makes so many doors open to me, all at once, so beautifully... *sniff*
Also: halfweight mountain plate.
Assassin caste:
Coooooool.:smallcool:
Mage caste: Kiiiiindof lame. Darkness, dancing lights and faerie fire are all weak spells, and as a fullcaster your standard actions are going to be a valuable commodity! It's really good at 1st level (WOOT, daze/touch of fatigue with a huge area!), decent at 5th level (woot, daze/touch of fatigue in a huge area!), and worthless by 10th level (eh, daze/touch of fatigue in a huge area). By then you'll likely prefer what class feature you would've gotten by trading in your familiar... and speaking of which, might want to specify that they can't trade in the familiar they can't get.
Devout caste drow: opposite of the mage caste. Really hurts at 1st level (No CMW for stabilization!:smallfrown:), but it's pretty nice by 5th level (wisdom bonus races are rare, and I'm sure there's some cool PrC shenanigans that could be accomplished by wild empathy...)
Casteless: Love it. It'd be my top pick after the SHEER OPTIONS of the warrior caste.
Don't see why metamagic feats would be banned. As a spontaneous caster, that would actually really be really nice.

Muffet:
Razor tangle: Want decapitation?
Give it an ability where it can make its webbing into a noose. Works as strangulation normally, damage/decapitation with razor wire. I'd also like to see the ability let you reel someone in up to the ceiling, grapple them, wrap the webbing around their neck and hang them. That'd be pretty much the best thing ever with the silent skitter ability.
"Where Beezlebubby go?"
*Drops down next to them, hung dead*
:eek::biggrin:

Eerie chitter: a bit of a leap from shakened to panicked. Frightened?
Spiderbite AC reduction: can this reduce to negative AC?
I do not like it when my suggestions are disregarded without any reasons. I will assume you missed them.:smallbiggrin:
Brood Mother: might want to add in something to the effect that they'll still hatch if the creature dies, as likely they will before they get a chance to fail their secondary save.

or nether regions:smalleek: Talk about body horror.

Otherwise, looking OK. Though I've already discussed why my saying it is OK is highly, HIGHLY fallible.:smallsmile:
Gargoyle:

First, that's because the Tough Skin ability can raise it. I'll hold back on an edit here until I have some input on how to adjust both of them. Raise both, keep as-is, raise base only?
Raise base only, maybe? Or maybe raise base, then make the additional something like +1.5x+1/5 HD?


Would it be strong enough if I removed super-invis? I'm guessing yes and changing it, but I can change it back.
Yessss.


Petrification, to clarify I should remove both features? It was weak only raising natural armour and would be rather strong with just the boost.
Just remove both the features. It adds up, eh. Otherwise the wizard would cast wraithstrike on you, you full attack a dragon, the dragon falls to the ground paralyzed. Dex damage is almost as good as int damage in this respect.


Deluge Waterspout doesn't knock prone:smallconfused: (it's a direct push back, not knocking them off their feet) so I'll leave a damage change for after a response, and I'll add "unoccupied".
...Oh. Reduce the area, then. By a good amount.

Razor Boar:

A first level warrior has the choice of what weapon to use. Other than that everything a warrior chooses can also be chosen by the razor boar, along with surge of force.
Yes. It's still more. Now compare it to an actual PC class.

Yeah, but I can't exactly put it first and any other means I have of making it stand out look unprofessional. What would you suggest?
Rename the ability. Call it something else (bloodscent? Hungry like the boar?), say it gains the scent ability (linked to the actual ability in the SRD) AND (insert additional text here).

Is this a good thing? is it too much? This is supposed to be a really tough beastie.
I'd break it out by level as opposed to HD.

At no point during a battle is the boar not engaged in rapid violent and unpredictable motion. The damage taken on a failed escape is dealt primarily by the boar's hide smacking into the rider's face and the most that most creatures can hope for is pulling themselves free or going along with the motion enough to not get hurt(represented by not making an escape attempt.) And the few creatures which would actually be capable of riding the boar probably have other ways of getting on its back.
Then make an opposed strength check modified by size? That's pretty much what it is. Yes, the Boar is badass, but that doesn't mean nothing else is as well. I'd say something like a lizardfolk barbarian of equivalent level and heroic array should be able to hack at the boar pretty well while doing that. I'm not saying you HAVE to, I'm saying it would add to verisimilitude and be pretty cool... especially for a DM using the razor boar against their players, which, you have to admit, is going to happen just as much as actual razor boar players ('cept maybe in the case of cohorts).

It is a non-action and can be taken at pretty much any time. Death or some similar effect (permanent petrification) can stop it but that's about it.
What about a brain lock, which halts all actions physical and mental? You need to include this stuff in the ability description.

Probably, but there's really nowhere to put it without displacing something else.
You could swing it at 1st level. I think an ideal situation would be to switch it with surge of force and give it this ability, but for all combat options (overrun, grapple, etc.) at first level. It doesn't GIVE it any combat options, but it WOULD make normally less than desirable combat options much more viable.

Unbodied:
You could totally swing incorporeal at an earlier time. 5th level?
Stacking: first of all, a first time reader might not get the stacking. Copy the usual multiclassing stacking rules (which even then people often don't get).
Sneak attack... eh. Stacking that strikes me as unnecessary. Also a little too powerful, because then you take a 1 level dip in rogue to suddenly gain +3d6 sneak attack. And then you take a dip in lurk to gain... +2d6 psychic sneak attack, I believe (just off the top of my head).
Disappearing: Wraithstrike is a nigh-broken spell. Granting extended+ wraithstrike is just ridiculous.
It should manifest as a psion equal to its class levels-1.
Telekinetic force? Might want to make a similar but weaker ability that scales up.
"The Unbodied is a master spy by nature"
Um. Where did you get this? The unbodied is more of an elevated being, a philosopher. Also, it's kindof a weak ability- just dimension hop as an su, really.
Assume appearance: Juuuust copy the changeling's ability. Transcribed below:

Minor Change Shape (Su): Changelings have the
supernatural ability to alter their appearance as though
using a disguise self spell that affects their bodies but not
their possessions. This is not an illusory effect but a minor
physical alteration of a changeling’s facial features, skin
color and texture, and size, within the limits described
for the spell. A changeling can use this ability at will,
and the alteration lasts until she changes shape again. A
changeling reverts to her natural form when killed. A true
seeing spell reveals her natural form. Using this ability is a
full-round action.
Skills: *When using its minor change shape ability, a
changeling gets a +10 circumstance bonus on Disguise
checks.
For simplicity's sake. Though you could extend it to creatures within one step of the unbodied's size.
Needs more abilities. Also, hide mind? It'd be good for what you're going for.
Anyways, the unbodied always struck me as much more similar to beguiler-meets-psion-plus-incorporeal than rogue. What did you see as particularly rogue-y about it?

Benly
2011-03-01, 11:20 PM
Do tell me who this whistleblower is so that I can smack them in the face for being an uptight guy in a monkey suit.
...Or something like that.


Man, I don't remember. You can scroll back through the thread as well as I can.

Edit: Looks like it was Kyuubi. I knew I was arguing with someone but didn't remember who.



Yes, but this is eldritch blast... with so much more!
It isn't affected by SR. It has 100% effectiveness against incorporeal/ethereal creatures. It doesn't provoke AoOs. And it apparently has a range of "if you can see them, you can hit them".
It's not that it's horribly powerful. It's that it's horribly reliable.
It's also pretty boring and should likely be scrapped entirely.


Yeah, but it's horribly reliable tiny damage, and there's no way to get it higher unlike other reliable damage options. It's like if the Mailman only delivered to Tinytowne. I can't imagine anyone dipping for it because it's easier for dang near any class to get better options for the majority of situations where it'd be of benefit.

I can get behind "too boring", though. I liked the at-will Concussion Blast but OMG D6ES.


I've said the exact same rant. Or, similar enough.
"OMG 10d6 SO POWERFUL!!!"
"Ummm... yeah, 35 damage."
"..."

It's at-will d6es that really scare people. To which I say, so what? A fistful of d6es at-will ain't gonna break the game. People are more scared of at-wills than is generally justified; nearly any combat ability benefits very little from being at-will as opposed to a sufficiently high x/day. Powers which benefit disproportionately from at-will usage are those which can be piled on without the bottleneck of actions, but Concussion Blast ain't on that short list. All that gets from it is less bookkeeping.



Not to those who are critiquing it.


Tragedy/finger/comedy/manhole cover. Like I said, the dude needs to get a better changelog going or the comedy routine will continue.

Mystic Muse
2011-03-01, 11:47 PM
Do tell me who this whistleblower is so that I can smack them in the face for being an uptight guy in a monkey suit.
...Or something like that.

I was the one against it. I didn't have a problem with it being a psi like ability, I had a problem with it being at will.

mootoall
2011-03-01, 11:55 PM
Unbodied:
You could totally swing incorporeal at an earlier time. 5th level?
Stacking: first of all, a first time reader might not get the stacking. Copy the usual multiclassing stacking rules (which even then people often don't get).
Sneak attack... eh. Stacking that strikes me as unnecessary. Also a little too powerful, because then you take a 1 level dip in rogue to suddenly gain +3d6 sneak attack. And then you take a dip in lurk to gain... +2d6 psychic sneak attack, I believe (just off the top of my head).
Disappearing: Wraithstrike is a nigh-broken spell. Granting extended+ wraithstrike is just ridiculous.
It should manifest as a psion equal to its class levels-1.
Telekinetic force? Might want to make a similar but weaker ability that scales up.
"The Unbodied is a master spy by nature"
Um. Where did you get this? The unbodied is more of an elevated being, a philosopher. Also, it's kindof a weak ability- just dimension hop as an su, really.
Assume appearance: Juuuust copy the changeling's ability. Transcribed below:

For simplicity's sake. Though you could extend it to creatures within one step of the unbodied's size.
Needs more abilities. Also, hide mind? It'd be good for what you're going for.
Anyways, the unbodied always struck me as much more similar to beguiler-meets-psion-plus-incorporeal than rogue. What did you see as particularly rogue-y about it?

I dunno, giving them such incorporeality at fifth level, which I do, is already fairly low, considering its advantages.

Okay, I'll copy the standard stacking. Regarding stacking for SA, you're right, it may not be necessary, but I feel like if it's going to go into something it'll go into Psychic Rogue, which is already getting less SA than usual. How about something like only stacking with Psychic Rogue or Lurk for those purposes, and it may only stack with one class' SA?

Wraithstrike will negate natural armor and armor, which is a powerful ability for a rogue-ish character (see below) because it enforces its ability to hit well, important for its . It's limited to half their Cha mod, so a maximum of two rounds duration at first level, and not getting much more than that until 9th. I'll move it up a couple levels, keep it at 1/2 Cha mod duration all the way through, change the action so it's taking a more important one away from them, and make it a times/day/HD ability, as well as a PP cost, so they don't get so many uses and it lasts a smaller amount of time.

I thought that casting as a class-x was frowned upon here? That being said, I'd rather give it a small suite of useful abilities than near full manifester progression (mind this gives incorporeality eventually, and the Uncarnate, which also does that, loses many more manifester levels).

The telekinetic force is nothing more than an excuse for it to be able to interact with its environment and weild a weapon, not an actual ability. I should, however, say something like for the purposes of carrying capacity it has an effective Str score of 10+2 per 5HD. Is that okay?

I got the "master spies" thing from the bit right under "Unbodied as Characters," which calls them "Supreme spies, the unbodied infiltrate enemy territory, impersonate leaders, and probe enemies’ minds for thoughts and plans." That said, I shall give them the hide mind ability, correct, as well as some detect thoughts thing to fit that flavor text. It doesn't really call them philosophers, but the bit that does designate that is why I gave them all knowledge as class skills.

That being said, I agree it's a bit weak. However, it fits with incorporeality, it's definitely a useful utility move, and that means I can pair it with something slightly stronger. The Wraithstrike ability, perhaps?

I'll use the Changeling's text, okay, but I would like to keep the extra ability to make it completely convincing, allowing for a bit of psionic flavor to it, and to make it an "active" choice.

I will give it a Hide Mind ability, and whatever else is suggested that I think would fit.

I think you might be right that it's more beguiler than rogue, now that I think about it. Wasn't in my mind at the time of creation, though, and for most purposes they fill the same role of sneak and skill monkey, with one being about the spells and the other slightly more about damage/evasiveness. That being said, I wanted to give them a clear role, and if they were to multiclass with beguiler, well, there's nothing I could give them to stack anyway, so I figured I would give them the option of rogue-ing. Unless, of course, there's something you can think of that I can't. And that just makes me think that it should be ... well, a Psychic Rogue. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723b)

Gorgondantess
2011-03-02, 12:07 AM
I dunno, giving them such incorporeality at fifth level, which I do, is already fairly low, considering its advantages.
Maybe. I tend to underestimate the powers of incorporeality. Talk to Hyudra about it?


Okay, I'll copy the standard stacking. Regarding stacking for SA, you're right, it may not be necessary, but I feel like if it's going to go into something it'll go into Psychic Rogue, which is already getting less SA than usual. How about something like only stacking with Psychic Rogue or Lurk for those purposes, and it may only stack with one class' SA?
Um.
You're incorporeal. Why are you sneak attacking at all?


Wraithstrike will negate natural armor and armor, which is a powerful ability for a rogue-ish character (see below) because it enforces its ability to hit well, important for its . It's limited to half their Cha mod, so a maximum of two rounds duration at first level, and not getting much more than that until 9th. I'll move it up a couple levels, keep it at 1/2 Cha mod duration all the way through, change the action so it's taking a more important one away from them, and make it a times/day/HD ability, as well as a PP cost, so they don't get so many uses and it lasts a smaller amount of time.
Yes, it's a powerful ability.
It's a very, VERY powerful ability.
It's a nigh-broken ability.
Enforcing ability to hit well? That's why you make things flat footed. Touch attacks are really, really good. Like, silly good. Like, +5 AB touch attack is about as good as a +12 AB non-touch attack.


I thought that casting as a class-x was frowned upon here? That being said, I'd rather give it a small suite of useful abilities than near full manifester progression (mind this gives incorporeality eventually, and the Uncarnate, which also does that, loses many more manifester levels).
Umm... noooo. Just for monsters that don't have it anyways. Those that do by all rights SHOULD have the caster levels. I mean, I've given a handful of my classes casting levels- marrutact & psionic illithid stand out.


The telekinetic force is nothing more than an excuse for it to be able to interact with its environment and weild a weapon, not an actual ability. I should, however, say something like for the purposes of carrying capacity it has an effective Str score of 10+2 per 5HD. Is that okay?
Umm... It has a strength score anyways until it gains incorporeality.


That being said, I agree it's a bit weak. However, it fits with incorporeality, it's definitely a useful utility move, and that means I can pair it with something slightly stronger. The Wraithstrike ability, perhaps?
Well, the thing is, if you're giving it manifesting levels most class abilities are essentially a formality, so long as you make them worth whatever you're losing.


I'll use the Changeling's text, okay, but I would like to keep the extra ability to make it completely convincing, allowing for a bit of psionic flavor to it, and to make it an "active" choice.
But there's already rules for that. It's called disguise.
In the midst of combat? Not if they're any good at shells it's not.


I think you might be right that it's more beguiler than rogue, now that I think about it. Wasn't in my mind at the time of creation, though, and for most purposes they fill the same role of sneak and skill monkey, with one being about the spells and the other slightly more about damage/evasiveness. That being said, I wanted to give them a clear role, and if they were to multiclass with beguiler, well, there's nothing I could give them to stack anyway, so I figured I would give them the option of rogue-ing. Unless, of course, there's something you can think of that I can't. And that just makes me think that it should be ... well, a Psychic Rogue. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723b)

Telepath. It's the closest class I can think of to beguiler.

Benly
2011-03-02, 12:10 AM
Enforcing ability to hit well? That's why you make things flat footed. Touch attacks are really, really good. Like, silly good. Like, +5 AB touch attack is about as good as a +12 AB non-touch attack.

At the mid levels onwards, I'd rather have the +5 touch attack. Touch attacks have the curious distinction of being the only attack vector which gets, on average, more reliable as CR increases.

Hyudra
2011-03-02, 12:18 AM
Drow (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=10473291#post10473291) Changes, March 1, 2011:
Removed the scaling dazzle. You're now dazzled for one round afterwards, and even that is removed if you have a hood or sundark goggles.
Removed the 2 round diplomacy from Noble Caste Drow, where you could use diplomacy with two consecutive rounds of swift actions in combat.
Warrior caste drow no longer convert any and all ¾ BAB classes to full BAB. Instead, for every 4 HD you get, you can change a level of ¾ BAB class to have full BAB instead. This lets you dip in a ¾ BAB class (monk, rogue, hexblade) without gimping your BAB, which was the goal.
Mage caste drow now work the other way around. Use a cantrip alongside a level 3 spell, faerie fire alongside a level 5 or darkness alongside a level 7 (with restrictions).
Devout caste drow no longer gains wild empathy (vermin) in exchange for her level 0 spells, but now exchanges turn undead for turn spider (or scorpion if xen'drik drow).

Monstrous Spider (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10404448&postcount=542) Changes, March 1st, 2011:
Noted that poison damage to AC can't reduce AC to a negative.
Changed Eerie Chitter so the better result makes foes frightened (was going from shaken to panicked, before).
Added a new ability under Silk Lattice, the Gallows Lariat. Lets you encircle someone's throat with a noose. Razor Wire now has a way to decapitate again.
Added Spiderbraid under Silk Strand, letting the Spider make lengths of rope with her web uses. It just makes sense.

mootoall
2011-03-02, 12:23 AM
Maybe. I tend to underestimate the powers of incorporeality. Talk to Hyudra about it?


Will do.

Um.
You're incorporeal. Why are you sneak attacking at all?

What do you mean? I'm attempting to ensure they don't get shafted by loss of weapon use, which means they should be allowed to sneak attack ... why shouldn't they be able to sneak attack?

Yes, it's a powerful ability.
It's a very, VERY powerful ability.
It's a nigh-broken ability.
Enforcing ability to hit well? That's why you make things flat footed. Touch attacks are really, really good. Like, silly good. Like, +5 AB touch attack is about as good as a +12 AB non-touch attack.

Okay, I'll give them a way to make opponents flat-footed instead. But that just makes me feel like they're more rogue-ish ...

Umm... noooo. Just for monsters that don't have it anyways. Those that do by all rights SHOULD have the caster levels. I mean, I've given a handful of my classes casting levels- marrutact & psionic illithid stand out.

Well, if you say so, I'll give them Telepath manifesting-1, but I feel kinda uncomfortable about it. Again, it gains incorporeality, which the Psion Uncarnate has to lose several manifesting levels for, alongside gaining a few slightly more terrible abilities ... I mean, why wouldn't you take this class in that case if you were going telepath? It gets a buttload of better abilities than the Uncarnate as well as nearly full manifesting. Much better than a few bonus feats.

Umm... It has a strength score anyways until it gains incorporeality.

Which is why it only gets its telepathic stuff when it's incorporeal, where otherwise it wouldn't be able to use a weapon at all.

Well, the thing is, if you're giving it manifesting levels most class abilities are essentially a formality, so long as you make them worth whatever you're losing.

But incorporeality really gets you a lot of bonuses. 50% miss chance from pretty much everything but force effects, and another 20% if you hide in a wall or something. It gives some of the best mobility you could ask for. It auto-succeeds on Move Silently checks. Again, things a sneaker would want more than anyone else.

But there's already rules for that. It's called disguise.
In the midst of combat? Not if they're any good at shells it's not.

From the SRD:

Action
Creating a disguise requires 1d3×10 minutes of work.

It's meant to be a fun, useful ability in combat, yes. If your opponents are good at shells, it might be not useful. If they aren't, it isn't. Note I mentioned a 50% chance to target the wrong one.


Telepath. It's the closest class I can think of to beguiler.

Again, I'm reluctant, but I'll give them telepath-1 casting if you insist on it.

Frankly, for psionics, I actually think my description is less confusing than what I see in, say Psurlon. It specifically calls out everything that it gains benefits for. The only reason that it's longer is because psionics is a bit more complex than arcane/divine casting, because you have to keep track of so many more things.

Edit: Also, you know who else gets touch attacks at about that rate? Any spellcaster specializing in rays, and they get them at range. Wraithstrike actually isn't that unbalancing, now that I think about it. It makes it easier to hit, yes. With your steel weapon, as opposed to scaling damage. You're very likely to hit, yes, but it actually isn't conferring as much bonus as you suggest, unless it's taking the Psi Rogue route to assure hits, in which case it's actually less powerful than flat-footing, where you get guaranteed sneak attack.

Hyudra
2011-03-02, 12:35 AM
@ Wraithstrike, just as an example... you're up against a hill giant.

Standard Hill Giant AC, 20. CR7, so you've got, what, +10 to hit? Hit on a 10 or better? 50/50?

Now let's make your attack wraithstrike. Hill Giant touch AC? 8... so let's power attack for as much as we can get away with. Woo, bonus damage up the ying-yang, and you're going to get pretty much guaranteed hits so long as you're not being dumb.

@ Incorporeality: Hide half-inside the floor/wall ceiling, get 20% concealment. Be incorporeal, get 50% miss chance on attacks against you. Take only 40% of the hits you otherwise would Ignore difficult terrain, ignore the worst parts of obstacles, ignore walls, walk through doors and unlatch them from the other side. Combat not going your way and you're about to die? Hide inside an object for total concealment. 100% move silently. Can't be tripped, can't be grappled.

For an example of a creature that gets incorporeality at a low level and , arguably, works, see the Ghost. It has a pretty huge handicap to tote around (namely, its own corpse, which is vulnerable to attack).

mootoall
2011-03-02, 12:46 AM
Wraithstrike, just as an example... you're up against a hill giant.

Standard Hill Giant AC, 20. CR7, so you've got, what, +10 to hit? Hit on a 10 or better? 50/50?

Now let's make your attack wraithstrike. Hill Giant touch AC? 8... so let's power attack for -5. Woo, bonus damage up the ying-yang, and you're going to get pretty much guaranteed hits even with that.

@ Incorporeality: Hide half-inside the floor/wall ceiling, get 20% concealment. Be incorporeal, get 50% miss chance on attacks against you. Take only 40% of the hits you otherwise would Ignore difficult terrain, ignore the worst parts of obstacles, ignore walls, walk through doors and unlatch them from the other side. Combat not going your way and you're about to die? Hide inside an object for total concealment. 100% move silently. Can't be tripped, can't be grappled.

For an example of a creature that gets incorporeality at a low level and , arguably, works, see the Ghost. It has a pretty huge handicap to tote around (namely, its own corpse, which is vulnerable to attack).

Yes. If you've got power attack as an Unbodied I'd be wondering a bit, but fine, let's say you do. Let's say we take Gorgon's suggestion and level in Telepath after finishing up Unbodied. I can now wraithstrike with my melee attacks! So I can hit him for a guaranteed 1d8+enhancement bonus damage! Yay!

Not overpowering if we take Gorgon's telepath suggestion.

If we look at Psi Rogue without SA stacking now: My Unbodied can hit nearly automatically now still! Amazing! For funsies, let's say I'm soloing this guy, so I'm level 7 myself. Guaranteed hit! Sweet! So I get my rapier damage, 1d6 SA, and let's say shortsword with another 1d6 SA. That's 4d6 damage at level 7. Weren't we discussing this earlier?

So, I wouldn't say that's awful if we take only the non-stacking SA.

Now, I'm an Unbodied with stacking SA and with levels in Psi Rogue. +3d6 SA! Amazing! So that's 10d6 total guaranteed damage at level 7. Pretty powerful, right? 35 damage, you said you calculated, Gordondantess? That's assuming your level is the same as the CR of the creature presented. It's taking me three to four rounds to kill this hill giant alone, when it's at my CR. If I'm tackling it at literally ANY LOWER LEVEL, I'm dealing only base weapon damage +2d6 SA damage. If I'm in the right place. Hardly overpowered.

Edit to address incorporeality:

At these low levels, you're sacrificing a full round to become incorporeal for a very short time, for a limited number of uses per day, and it gradually gets to the point where you're on par with the Uncarnate.

Edit edit: Those calculations, also, are done assuming that the rogues would be using a dual wielding strategy.

Gorgondantess
2011-03-02, 12:52 AM
*snippy*
But at the same time it becomes a silly good dip for pretty much every melee class ever.

mootoall
2011-03-02, 12:55 AM
But at the same time it becomes a silly good dip for pretty much every melee class ever.

Which is why I decided to move it to third level, as I said, base its duration off ½ a mental stat that is the quintessential dump stat for meleers, and make it usable only 1/day/3HD.

mootoall
2011-03-02, 01:12 AM
Unbodied fully updated, including an added Hide Mind ability filling the fourth level, and Telepath manifesting added, though I'm still a bit doubtful about it. They have some of the most effective Save-or-Lose powers in the system. As such, I maintained the bonus PP mechanic I had earlier, as well as Telepath manifesting, because I don't want to lose that text in case it gets decided that the Telepath manifesting is too powerful.

Lizard Lord
2011-03-02, 01:58 AM
I have updated the Hooded Pupil. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10449208&postcount=711) I have not made "Undead Master" abilities. I will work on that later.

bladesmith
2011-03-02, 02:35 AM
Hey, Hydrua, I'd appreciate it if you didn't throw the Remorhaz on the abandoned list just yet. I haven't had a lot of time lately, but the biggest problem is coming up with a suitable replacement for Property Damage that keeps the feel of the monster, but does something cool. So, still thinking about it, but its been put on the back burner by real life.

Kobold-Bard
2011-03-02, 02:56 AM
As I said in an earlier post, I'm moving it to the homebrew section after a few revisions, because I more or less agree with Gorgon that it's less of a monster class than an experiment.

If you want something on this lost maybe give the Dvati a go.

Tacitus
2011-03-02, 05:08 AM
I, for one, like the changes to the Unbodied (alongside Vivacious, its the only incorporeal I'd ever play) and in my opinion the change to 3rd level and 1/2 Cha mod for duration greatly reduces the dippability and power of the 'wraithstrike,' and the limited times per day and higher PP cost make it entirely reasonable in my opinion. On Read Thoughts, I'd suggest 1/day/HD which then becomes at-will after a certain point, because at-will Read Thoughts at first level is way good. Its a second level power, so even getting it before 3HD is problematic, and being able to do it all day long is even moreso.

On the topic of fistful of d6s, a rant that, on second thought, you can ignore
see a good rogue with the right feats. They do handfuls of d6s, and probably with TWF. If they really try, it doesn't matter who you are or what sort of anatomy you may or may not have. They will find your nuts and shank them. Yeah, warlock-like abilities to go pewpew at range are nice and all, but good luck doing appreciable damage without a helluvalot of work. I've seen way too many DMs bomb the hell out of warlock fixes that let them use their EB with iterative attacks. Even in high power games next to uberchargers. Its uncanny. So what if I can Rapid Shot my Eldritch Blast and add a stat to damage? The fighter just did 2d12+368 before looking for crits, and oh, they get bull rushed into the wall for Dungeoncrasher damage too.[/rant]

DiBastet
2011-03-02, 07:58 AM
With college and a dammed headache together, I was absent from here, but now I'm back, and let's work.

Ragewalker - Reply to Gorgondantes


Seriously? Full BAB. Or at least 3/4. Problem with what you have is that it cuts out the ragewalker from a lot of qualifications for feats or PrCs (Many, MANY of which are based on BAB) and I see no way you've made up the hit to attack bonus.
You’ve seen no way? Alright, I’ll just ignore the little rude part, assume that it’s because it’s the internet and that you “didn’t mean that”. I always interpreted the monster more as a Scout (the class, no the role) kind of guy, without the ability to stand in full blow melee, but as required I’ll give it full BAB and wait for critiques again.


DR should be in a separate ability from the "body" ability.
whatever


IL is OK.
Whatever you meant as IL, then cool you liked something.


Mind of Rage is okay... so long as you give it full BAB.
At least


Styptic armor: as there's pretty much no reason to ever use any armor but the grafted armor, just give it fast healing.
I don’t get it. First I am critiqued that there’s little fluff, now I’m critiqued to make things more boring? Boring. Won’t do. Really.


Weapon cloud: beginning at 2th level?
adjacent to the Ragewalker takes 1d4 damage
If it's going to start at 1d4, it should increase by d4's, or you should change it to start at 1d6 (just one more point of damage, no biggie).
Yeah, beginning at 2nd level. No, will keep the d4 then d6. It doesn’t take space in the class and does not hurt the class as it’s “no biggie”


Weapon's Cloud Fury: Scale the radius. Also, you have it at 8th level in the text and 6th level in the table.
Text/table error on weapon cloud.
Typos, typos. It seems completely unnecessary to scale the radius, and seems really stupid. But it’s scaled now.


"Creatures effected"
Affected. No biggie, pretty much everyone gets 'em confused.
I didn’t “get ‘em confused”, it was a typo.


Induce blood frenzy: ouch. So you're getting confusion on crack as a gaze attack? Jegus. Waaaaaay too powerful.
Great, I wanted it to scale. Suggest something.


Repel Magic: define- likely as a spell turning?
Don’t get you.


Create Living Spell: ...Hm. Originally we were just going to go for a living spell cohort once the living spell monster class was finished. What you have here is... well, I suppose it works at 1/2 HD. Probably best to make it "cannot create a living spell of more than 1/2 HD, period", though. Just for sanity's sake. I could definitely see abuse there.
It’s more on the flavor side to create ones you can’t control. Maybe you just want to put them in your dungeon. Don’t know. Seems boring flavorwise to remove it. Won’t do.


Otherwise... well, it's just a little bland. It has its gaze, it has its weapon cloud, and it has living spells. That's IT. Frankly, I prefer the previous iteration.
The one with the monster feats as class abilities and weapon cloud at 10th level? If this is the case if I can’t, ahem, “make it right” I’ll just leave the previous one, and save you the request. Deal?



The other monsters
I went backwards noting all the new monsters so I could review them, but since the review of ragewalker really annoyed me with this whole project, I lost much of the interest in reviewing anything. However, since it's not the fellow homebrewers fault, I'll post a review later of each one of the non-council monsters.

The Goblin
The players had fun. Since we're low level I added fighter and or rogue levels. It went okay, can't say I had problems. But when I explained it could be a race they thought it was awful. It was just too comical for them. However, they quickly agreed it would be a very cool idea for a prestige class, with more additional critters at higher levels.

And they certainly said it would be better as kobolds.

Sorry I'm too annoyed to write something more in-depth I had prepared for the abilities and all

Psyborg
2011-03-02, 10:08 AM
Not much, but in the Greenbound class, you may want to read over the Mettle feature. Specifically, look at which class is mentioned in the description.
currently the mystic warrior loses the ability while sleeping, but the greenbound does not. You may want to fix that, but it's just a minor thing.

Fixed. Thanks.

Microbiology exam today. Wish me luck. Hopefully the symbionts will be finished within the week.

Necroticplague
2011-03-02, 10:31 AM
Okay, updated the phantom (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=10461724#post10461724), does anyone have a good idea of what some other way to word incorporeal movement might be?

Hyudra
2011-03-02, 11:36 AM
Hey, Hydrua, I'd appreciate it if you didn't throw the Remorhaz on the abandoned list just yet. I haven't had a lot of time lately, but the biggest problem is coming up with a suitable replacement for Property Damage that keeps the feel of the monster, but does something cool. So, still thinking about it, but its been put on the back burner by real life.

So noted. The Remorhaz will be given a week or two longer.

I was in the same boat with Storm Giant before I decided to just let it rest for a while. I'll go back to it someday, but I want to wait long enough to approach it with a fresh start.


Ragewalker - Reply to Gorgondantes

I always interpreted the monster more as a Scout (the class, no the role) kind of guy, without the ability to stand in full blow melee, but as required I’ll give it full BAB and wait for critiques again.

If that's the case, you should really come up with abilities to convey that and encourage that playstyle. Ragewalker has a high base movement speed (a passive effect), but doesn't get anything that really encourages that 'scoutish' playstyle beyond that. Fact is, the chassis of the class is encouraging a Barbarian playstyle as much or more than it's encouraging a scout one. Get into the thick of things and let your cloud of blades chop things up because your melee/range sure won't do the trick.

Also, note that even scouts (as a class) have 3/4 BAB.


I don’t get it. First I am critiqued that there’s little fluff, now I’m critiqued to make things more boring? Boring. Won’t do. Really.

That's not fluff, really, that's just an inconvenient part of an ability.

If you want to do something like that and call it fluff, generally speaking, you're going to want a marginal benefit, to encourage players to talk about it or have it come up in a game. The elves not needing to sleep is a small example of this. But having a penalty for not wearing armor is going to make players think, "I don't want the effect to screw me over, so I'm going to pay as little attention to this detail as possible and hope the DM does the same."

But generally speaking, fluff is insubstantial, floaty, ultimately meaningless beyond your first aesthetic impressions. That's why it's fluff. So there's not a lot that's mechanical to it. When you were encouraged to have more fluff in the class, it was more a recommendation for flavor text and the like, to give a better idea of how abilities worked and what you were doing and why. Stuff to clue players in, perhaps, to the personality of the Ragewalker.


the review of ragewalker really annoyed me with this whole project, I lost much of the interest in reviewing anything.

...Huh. I read Gorgon's critique and I more or less agree with it (I don't know that I agree with the radius increase on the blade toss bit, given how I imagine the ability working). I think any issues you're having, be it frustration with being asked to change stuff you don't want to (ie. the BAB), or feeling like you're being asked to do two different things by different people (the fluff bit), are stemming mostly from a simple misunderstanding of the project and/or what's being said to you. I mean, sure, Gorgon and I sometimes disagree, but that's always going to happen, whether it's a homebrew monster project, business or politics.

Sorry that you're frustrated, but I can't really see where the degree of frustration you're displaying is coming from.

In the end, it's probably my fault. I shouldn't have let an inexperienced homebrewer adopt a long class like that. That always leads to groans and moans from everyone working on it (creator and critiquer alike).

Psyborg
2011-03-02, 12:33 PM
Okay, updated the phantom (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=10461724#post10461724), does anyone have a good idea of what some other way to word incorporeal movement might be?

Current wording:

Incorporeal Movement(Su):When a phantom uses a move action to move , the phantom become incorporeal during the movement. However, the phantom becomes material after each move. Thus, if the phantom performs a double move, the phantom must end their first move in a space where they can re-manifest their physical body before becoming incorporeal again for the second part of your move.This ability can be activated or suppressed as a move action.

1. Is there any limit on this ability, or any reason not to be incorporeal while moving? I'd remove the "can be activated or suppressed as a move action" clause and just make it the default, or use "may choose to become incorporeal while moving" or similar language to make an option with no action cost.

2. The wording "uses a move action to move"- Currently, that prohibits incorporeal charging, incorporeal withdrawing, incorporeal running, and incorporeal move-up-to-your-speed-as-a-swift-action, but not incorporeal movement on multiple move actions. This seems odd, because spending a swift action for Travel Devotion doesn't let you move while incorporeal, but spending a swift action to manifest/use a dorje of hustle and moving with the resulting move action does let you be incorporeal. Two forms of (essentially) swift-action movement, one corporeal, one incorporeal.

If the intent is, indeed, to limit this to move actions specifically, then this is correct, and the oddity of Travel Devotion vs. hustle is just me being nitpicky.

However, if the intent is to limit how far the Phantom can move inside objects, then "The Phantom may become incorporeal when moving up to its speed" or similar wording might do the job.

3. Currently, the Phantom remains incorporeal while taking actions in the middle of a move action (attacks from Spring Attack, Shot on the Run, or actions from martial maneuvers that allow move-action movement and an action of some kind "at any point during his movement"). Is this the intent?

Current functionality, reworded for (I hope) clarity and specificity:Incorporeal Movement (Ex): While this ability is active, the Phantom becomes incorporeal when moving as a move action. They become corporeal again at the end of their move, and so must end their movement in a space they could legally occupy when corporeal. Phantoms taking a double move must end each move action in a legal space, becoming briefly corporeal before beginning their second move action. If the Phantom's movement is prevented or stopped against their will while they are in a space they could not legally occupy while corporeal, they are shunted to the nearest legal space, taking 1d6 damage per 10' they travel in this way.

The Phantom may suppress or resume this ability at any time. Doing so is a move action that (does||OR||does not) provoke Attacks of Opportunity.

Incorporeal movement does not apply to any movement except that from using the Phantom's own move actions. The Phantom does not become incorporeal during other actions that include movement, or during movement caused by an outside effect. If the Phantom has the ability to take another kind of action during or in the middle of its move action, it (remains incorporeal while taking that action||OR||becomes corporeal while taking that action, becoming incorporeal again when the action is completed and it continues its movement. Because of this, it may only take such an action if it is in a space it could legally occupy while corporeal).It is a bit longer, but I tried to explicitly cover a couple possibilities that were only implied in the original wording. The second spoiler is wording that A) changes it to a "may" option, rather than an activated/suppressed ability, and B) applies it "when moving up to their speed" rather than only as a move action.Incorporeal Movement (Ex): Whenever moving up to its speed, the Phantom may choose to become incorporeal for the duration of its movement. It becomes corporeal again at the end of its movement. It must end its movement in a space it could legally occupy while corporeal. If the Phantom's movement is prevented or stopped against their will while they are in a space they could not legally occupy while corporeal, they are shunted to the nearest legal space, taking 1d6 damage per 10' they travel in this way.

A Phantom may use this ability multiple times in one turn, but only once per action- for example, it could become incorporeal for each of two move actions (but the first move action would still have to end in a location the Phantom could legally occupy while it becomes corporeal for a brief instant between its move actions), or during its movement while charging a distance up to its move speed (a full-round action). It could not become incorporeal during the movement portion of a charge over a distance greater than its move speed.

If the Phantom has the ability to take another kind of action during its movement, it remains incorporeal while taking that action.Feel free to use either, neither, or bits and pieces of both.

Couple more things:

4. Since Weakness is due to existing both corporeally and incorporeally, does the phantom still take 50% extra damage from ghost-touch attacks during its movement (such as attacks of opportunity provoked by the movement and made with ghost touch weapons)?

5. If there's no limit on Incorporeal Jaunt's duration or usage, it's gained a mere one level later, and Phantom Strike lets them attack normally while incorporeal (covering about 90% of the actions noncaster adventurers take- and neither chain-trippers or Dungeoncrashers are likely to be Phantoms in the first place), then Incorporeal Movement becomes...mostly irrelevant. Just saying.

6. Taking this grants deflection Cha to AC even when corporeal, and keeps armor, shields, and natural armor to AC even when incorporeal. With nearly all the base monster classes giving Con (or sometimes Str) to Natural Armor AC, this is a really easy way to stack multiple stats to AC (and not the usual Wisdom, either). Whether this is a balance problem is more than I can say; I just thought I'd point out the possibility.

Hyudra
2011-03-02, 12:51 PM
When I read the Phantom's stuff, I can't help but think of the creature of the same name from Dark Legions, an early-90's computer game by SSI. Sort of a grid based board where players had fantasy monsters/classes. Move your monster onto an enemy's and they fight in a top-down arena battle.

The Phantom (http://www.oldgames.sk/en/gallery.php?gallery=246&image=7209) there wasn't so different from the one here. It moves through the terrain, you couldn't touch it unless it was actively attacking you, etc. I wonder if it was something WotC had in mind when they did the template, or if it's just one of those coincidences in design.

Just something that occurred to me.

I like your in-depth discussion of the wording, Psyborg. Thing is, I think the struggle with rewording that ability isn't so much the actual wording (though I like the changes you suggest) so much as making it distinct enough from the whatchamacallit (seriously? Spellchecker is ok with that, but not the word 'ok'?) from MoI to not be a direct rip-off of official material.

Noxsis
2011-03-02, 01:40 PM
dragon 343-hex dragon
dragon 359-time dragon
please & thank you

Hyudra
2011-03-02, 01:48 PM
dragon 343-hex dragon
dragon 359-time dragon
please & thank you

I don't believe we're doing dragon magazine stuff, and dragons are really hard to do, anyways. I wouldn't expect those to get done anytime soon.

TheGeckoKing
2011-03-02, 02:49 PM
Srsly. Time Dragon? That's an epic dragon, which opens up about 392 degrees of pain. Yes, 392. You just went and broke reality. :smalltongue:

Gorgondantess
2011-03-02, 02:51 PM
If you'd like to request any smaller monsters, though, I'd be willing to look into them myself. I mean, pretty much everyone requests 20+ level monsters and it never happens. Ask for something of less than 10 levels and you're at least 393 times likelier to get it.

Lix Lorn
2011-03-02, 03:02 PM
If you'd like to request any smaller monsters, though, I'd be willing to look into them myself. I mean, pretty much everyone requests 20+ level monsters and it never happens. Ask for something of less than 10 levels and you're at least 393 times likelier to get it.
And it'll be easier to make and end up at least 20% cooller.

mootoall
2011-03-02, 03:26 PM
That being said, Hyudra, is the Unbodied in your next batch of critiques? Hate to bother you, but I'd just like to say it underwent some significant changes since posting already, so it might be worth it to make sure you're writing about the most recent one. Also, a resolution to the "Psion Manifesting-1 vs. not" would be very helpful in that critique, as something specific I'd like to ask you to cover.

Gorgondantess
2011-03-02, 03:29 PM
Also, a resolution to the "Psion Manifesting-1 vs. not" would be very helpful in that critique, as something specific I'd like to ask you to cover.

Every monster we've ever done that had manifesting or casting as a monster has manifesting or casting as a monster class. I don't see why we should start changing that now.

Lyndworm
2011-03-02, 03:36 PM
If you'd like to request any smaller monsters, though, I'd be willing to look into them myself. I mean, pretty much everyone requests 20+ level monsters and it never happens. Ask for something of less than 10 levels and you're at least 393 times likelier to get it.

Honestly? I'd really like to see Dvati. I know exactly how ridiculous that is, seeing as how they'd only have one class level.

Lix Lorn
2011-03-02, 03:40 PM
The problem with Dvati is that it's impossible to balance. Basically, you take a dvati, and consider it two character slots. (shrug)

Gorgondantess
2011-03-02, 03:41 PM
Honestly? I'd really like to see Dvati. I know exactly how ridiculous that is, seeing as how they'd only have one class level.

I never said you would get it. I said you're likelier to get it. Dvati I'm not touching with a 9 and a half foot pole, though Hyudra might be interested if it's not too redundant with the goblins class.
Honestly, you could probably just do an adaptation of that one and there you go. Reduce the number to two, change the size & bonuses, and there you go.

Frog Dragon
2011-03-02, 04:09 PM
I've been trying to revise the dragon without the Oslecamo template, and I have to say that Hyudra is right about these. This is HARD!

I decided to go with "Draconic paths" (Pick one, this is the kind of dragon you are) and doing the caster version is very hard. The dragon needs to have some sorcerous abilities from the start, and it's a freaking dragon. It just cannot be a complete chump in combat. I'm really stumped here.

Mystic Muse
2011-03-02, 04:10 PM
I've been trying to revise the dragon without the Oslecamo template, and I have to say that Hyudra is right about these. This is HARD!

I decided to go with "Draconic paths" and doing the caster version is very hard. The dragon needs to have some sorcerous abilities from the start, and it's a freaking dragon. It just cannot be a complete chump in combat. I'm really stumped here.

Bard equivalent of casting and 3/4 BAB doesn't seem like it would be too horribly bad*, especially if we bring the dragons in to the balance level of other creatures like it mentions in the first post.

*I of course have no idea what it is you're doing right now, so I'm probably wrong about that.

Hyudra
2011-03-02, 04:12 PM
That being said, Hyudra, is the Unbodied in your next batch of critiques? Hate to bother you, but I'd just like to say it underwent some significant changes since posting already, so it might be worth it to make sure you're writing about the most recent one. Also, a resolution to the "Psion Manifesting-1 vs. not" would be very helpful in that critique, as something specific I'd like to ask you to cover.

Well, as you may know, the dynamic for critiques involved me doing batch critiques to get people to that 'nearly done' stage, aided by Kyuubi since she joined the roster. Once things were to that point, or once I just couldn't critique any more (due to lack of objectivity, couldn't come up with stuff, etc), I'd hand the reins over to Gorgon, who would do a final lookthrough, final critique and then give his assent for it to go on the master list.

We ran into a snag with the psionic monsters, though. Namely, I have no meaningful play experience with them, and I don't know the rules for them all that well. I'm reading up and trying to inform myself, but it left me struggling to do those batch critiques that involved psionic monsters.

With that in mind, it looks like we're going to flip things around for the psionic stuff. Namely, Gorgon's (aided by Kyuubi, most likely) going to focus his critiques on them, get them to the nearly done stage, and then I'll give them the final lookthrough & vote, under the assumption that Gorgon has hammered out the psionic aspects of them.

So, for the time being, I won't be including the Psurlon, Pandorym or Unbodied in my batch critiques. This isn't anything negative directed at those classes - I'm just admitting my ignorance and I'll give them my attention and love when Gorgon's through abusing them. Sorry!


Dvati I'm not touching with a 9 and a half foot pole, though Hyudra might be interested if it's not too redundant with the goblins class.

Not terribly interested, I'll say right now. There's a lot of monsters I want to do, and the ones I enjoy most tend to be a little simpler.

Frog Dragon
2011-03-02, 04:14 PM
Well that is true. Currently, what I intend to do is this
At levels 1, 5, 9, 13 and 17, you gain an ability connected with the draconic path, which there are two or three of. The base HD of the dragon will be either d8 or d6, and the noncaster paths will probably raise it. BAB will be medium, and I'll be dealing out +5 bonuses to str, cha and int, with the ability to pick out other ability bonuses when you gain new draconic path abilities. I could of course just do the bard casting from either the sorcerer or druid list.

Noxsis
2011-03-02, 04:16 PM
tome of magic
genie; khayal
shadow elemental

happy nethier above 20 HD with or without LA
ps still want hex dragon please

mootoall
2011-03-02, 04:19 PM
Every monster we've ever done that had manifesting or casting as a monster has manifesting or casting as a monster class. I don't see why we should start changing that now. Well alright, but that means I have to alter the mechanics for their abilities, because I tried to balance uses by giving some of them pp costs, which won't be limiting at all if they've got Psion PP all the way through. So that I've gotta change.

Mystic Muse
2011-03-02, 04:21 PM
tome of magic
genie; khayal
shadow elemental

happy nethier above 20 HD with or without LA
ps still want hex dragon please

We use CR, not hit dice here. ALthough, they are both below CR 8 which is good. Also, we're currently in the process of revising the dragons entirely so the hex dragon is going to take even longer, especially since most of us don't have access to dragon magazines.

Frog Dragon
2011-03-02, 04:23 PM
tome of magic
genie; khayal
shadow elemental

happy nethier above 20 HD with or without LA
ps still want hex dragon please
Really, most of us have big, big projects we are undertaking, and asking for high level monsters probably won't be answered for a long, long time.

If you really want some creatures, you could do them yourself, though newbies are encouraged not to take up high CR monsters and generally limit themselves to CR 5 or down until they start getting the feel of things.

Edit: And yes, with the great dragon reform, getting new dragons is going to take a LONG, LONG time.

Hyudra
2011-03-02, 04:23 PM
I think perhaps Dragon Magazine material should go in the homebrew thread, as it's not technically official material.

Gorgondantess
2011-03-02, 04:26 PM
Well alright, but that means I have to alter the mechanics for their abilities, because I tried to balance uses by giving some of them pp costs, which won't be limiting at all if they've got Psion PP all the way through. So that I've gotta change.
But it already stacked with... Wilder PP anyways, didn't it?


I think perhaps Dragon Magazine material should go in the homebrew thread, as it's not technically official material.
Sortof... kindof... isn't Dragon endorsed by WotC?

Noxsis
2011-03-02, 04:27 PM
yes it is endosered which is why i requseted stuff from it

mootoall
2011-03-02, 04:33 PM
But it already stacked with... Wilder PP anyways, didn't it? It stacked with all manifesting classes, with extra incentive to go into Lurk and Psi Rogue, which have much lower PP progression. If they were to go into Psion or Wilder, they'd have much more PP, yeah, but then a lot more powerful things to spend their PP on a lot more suddenly, while they've been relying on a small pool for 5 levels to fuel Unbodied abilities.

Mystic Muse
2011-03-02, 04:35 PM
yes it is endosered which is why i requseted stuff from it

Its still extremely unlikely to get done since not many people have dragon magazines, even if they do, not many people like doing dragons, heck Hyudra hates reviewing them, and lastly, we're redoing the dragons from Scratch (and by we, I mean Frog Dragon)

Frog Dragon
2011-03-02, 04:39 PM
Its still extremely unlikely to get done since not many people have dragon magazines, even if they do, not many people like doing dragons, heck Hyudra hates reviewing them, and lastly, we're redoing the dragons from Scratch (and by we, I mean Frog Dragon)
Hey! No I'm not! :smalltongue:

ATM, I'm only redesigning the Black Dragon before going back to yugoloths, and Hyudra is also doing the Xorvintaal Red Dragon. I don't know if the others will be redesigned anytime soon.

Mystic Muse
2011-03-02, 04:39 PM
Hey! No I'm not! :smalltongue:

ATM, I'm only redesigning the Black Dragon before going back to yugoloths, and Hyudra is also doing the Xorvintaal Red Dragon. I don't know if the others will be redesigned anytime soon.

Oh okay.

Well, if its good enough, I might make the silver dragon revision more like it.

Hyudra
2011-03-02, 04:44 PM
While I wait for the Monstrous Spider and Drow to pass muster, I'm touching up some of my old monsters, to keep in kind with more recent standards:

So...

Hill Giant (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8476867&postcount=360) Changes, March 2nd, 2011:
Updated Changelog to look tidier.
Picture replaced, as the old one wasn't loading consistently.
Reformatted the entire entry to match with current standards. (table tidier, headings in bold rather than italics, and removed the constant references to 'you', which were mixed up with references to 'his' and 'they'. Now pretty consistently uses 'his' throughout, minus the Hill Giant Body, which speaks about Hill Giants in general terms (they, their, etc.).)
Smash tweaked to apply daze rather than stun, which makes it a little less devastating but more consistent, which is good. It no longer applies daze if you land just one melee hit on a smaller target, instead requiring you to land two hits on one foe with a slam or a 2H weapon, or to hit with a boulder (this also gives a better reason to use both slams and boulders, and prevents awkwardness with dazing/stunning by way of AoO) It now advances at 11HD to ease things up for the Giant again (by that point, you're fighting more large/huge/gargantuan foes).
Tidied up growth text.
Clarified about range increments in Chuck Rock (they were conspicuously absent, with just the maximum range listed). Similar clarifications about the throwing of non-boulders using the ability, which previously said that the range was halved, but didn't get into range increments or any of that.
Removed Thrash, which was an underwhelming capstone, but the mechanics of it are preserved in the sixth ability, "I is Better".
Added the abilities Rampage and "I is Bigger" to seventh level. The former lets the Hill Giant be more creative with a cleave-like trigger, while the latter is a size category shift that rewards the Hill Giant even more for fighting on hills/higher ground.

Psyborg
2011-03-02, 04:51 PM
Nitpicking Is What I Do:Au contraire: Dragon Magazine is, indeed, official material. WotC says so, the FAQ says so, Paizo says so, and it's considered official in Living Forgotten Realms. Also, the Dragon Compendium was published by WotC, not Paizo. (If desired, I can edit this post with links and references in a couple days- I'm on school internet with no Tor, which sucks.)

It may be of spotty quality- I'm skeptical about using or allowing most of it myself- but I avoid it for the same reason I avoid the Paladin and Archivist (namely, they suck balance-wise), not because it's not "official".

The only entity that can use "official" with regards to D&D is Wizards of the Coast, and they have done so repeatedly with regards to Dragon Magazine material.

But, heck, they also say the FAQ is official, so...:smallfrown:

And moving on to more productive pursuits, like actually adressing the question at hand (Dragon Mag material in this thread):
The nebulous goal of this thread is to create a playable monster class for every monster in official material.According to this guideline, whether Dragon Magazine material belongs here depends on whether you consider it "official". (See spoiler above for my take.)
For people wanting to work on monsters that aren't from official WotC material, there is a spin-off project, our homebrew edition (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=180510).And this heavily implies that the only monsters that fall within the scope of this project are those that are both A) official, and B) published by WotC. Dragon Magazine was not published by WoTC (though Dragon Compendium was).

On the whole, I think I'd be quite happy leaving Dragon material out of this project for now, at least until we finish the WotC monsters! On the other hand, Dragon monsters aren't exactly ""PEACH'd homebrew monsters" either. For what it's worth, I recommend the following:
--Generally discourage requests or work on Dragon Magazine monsters.
--Let people who want to make Dragon Mag monsters themselves do so (barring the new-'brewer-epic-monster scenario; ugh, Time Dragon :smallyuk:).
--Allow any such monsters to be posted in this thread, rather than the Homebrew Monsters spin-off. Why? Well, for those of us with more...conservative DMs, getting permission to use the occasional gem from Dragon Magazine or the Homebrew Forum can be difficult. Someone, somewhere, may be able to convince their DM to approve a monster class for an "official" monster, but not one for a "homebrew" monster. Given the highly debated status of Dragon material in the first place, and the fact that we're making these classes so people can play them and have fun (let's not lose sight of that!), I think choosing the option that makes them more likely to be played (however slightly) is the best option here.

And that's the end of my rant.

Hyudra
2011-03-02, 04:54 PM
...

I could accept those recommendations without complaint. Well said, well argued.

Mystic Muse
2011-03-02, 05:17 PM
Looking at the monstrous spider, I notice it says the poison bypasses a creature's immunity to it at a certain point, but what about if they're immune to ability damage?