Community Based Monster Classes VI

[Psyborg]

Hill Giant: Table: "Hill Giant body" --> "Hill Giant Body" (capitalize the B)
Proficiencies: "The Hill Giant gains proficiency with simple weapons, light and medium armor." Should be either "...simple weapons, light armor, and medium armor." or "...simple weapons and light and medium armor."
Hill Giant Body: Second sentence: "Hill Giants are initially medium sized creatures with a base movement speed of 30', possessing two natural slam attacks that deal 1d4 + Str mod damage each, and natural armor equal to their con modifier." Between the slam attacks and the natural armor we have "Str mod" (ability abbreviated and capitalized, "modifier" abbreviated) and "con modifier" (ability abbreviated and uncapitalized, "modifier" not abbreviated. Consistency would look a bit better.
Pounding Footsteps: Not required, but specifying whether this includes magically manipulated terrain couldn't hurt.
Chuck Rock: Doesn't specify the damage of the boulder. Should probably also specify that they are treated as simple thrown weapons, as otherwise he may or may not be proficient.
Pulverise: Suggest scaling the rate of increase slightly with levels- perhaps +2d6 per successive impact at 12HD and +3d6 at 18HD? Otherwise, the high end of that (HD)d6 cap is going to go pretty much unused.
Crash Through: "(double your slam damage + 3x your Str bonus)" your --> his.
I is Better: Critical threat range improves by "one step". This term is ambiguous with regard to threat ranges. It should either A) double, which stacks with a keen weapon and similar effects (*insert D&D math reminder here*), B) double, which does not stack with a keen weapon and similar effects, or C) increase by one, which is applied after, and stacks with, keen weapon and similar effects.
I is Better: "...critical hit damage by one step..." should be "critical hit damage multiplier by one"
I is Bigger: Should clarify that the opponent's effective size reduction only applies to opposed rolls and checks between him (the opponent) and the hill giant. (Otherwise having a Hill Giant on a hill nearby suddenly makes it easier for everyone else to trip you.) Given a strict reading of the current wording, this is already the case; it could, however, be clearer.
That's all I have on that.

[Hyudra]

Hill Giant:

Further Hill Giant (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8476867#post8476867) Changes, March 2nd, 2011:
Fixed capitalization error in table.
Fixed ambiguous wording in proficiencies.
Made use of Str mod / Con mod more consistent in capitalization and abbreviation of 'mod' vs. 'modifier'
Pounding Footsteps: clarified that it functions in magically altered terrain.
Chuck Rock: Clarified boulder damage as 2d6 for small rocks, increasing with size as normal.
Pulverize: Made it scale, +1d6 damage per successive hit at 7HD and every 3HD thereafter. Gave example to make it as clear as possible.
I is Better: Clarified the advancement to crits and stacking.
I is Bigger: Added text to stress that it only pertains to interactions between the Hill Giant and foes.
Thanks to Psyborg for the feedback that led to this particular changelist.

[Psyborg]

Monstrous Spider: Monstrous Spider Body: "...natural armor equal to their con modifiers." Capitalize Con.
Web: Current wording for scaling of maximum range is awkward. Suggest rephrasing maximum range to "five range increments", and then you only have to specify scaling of range increment.
Web: "Though the strand initially has the consistency and thickness of rope, it has hardness equal to the Spider's HD, to a maximum of double the Spider's Con mod, and has 2hp per HD of the Spider." Run-on sentence. Suggest: "The strand has the consistency and thickness of rope, but its strength increases mightily as the Spider gains experience. The strand has hardness equal to the Spider's HD (to a maximum of the Spider's Con mod), and 2HP per HD of the Spider."
Web (indented example): "ie. " is firstly incorrect (it signifies the Latin "id est", meaning "that is" or "in other words"; "e.g." ["exempli gratia"] is the correct abbreviation to signify "for example"), and secondly begins the paragraph with an uncapitalized abbreviation, which looks weird. Suggest replacing it with either "Example: " or "For example, "
Ensnaring Strand: Says "half again the range of a typical Web attack", but then specifies ranges that don't appear to scale like Web ranges do.
Attach: Wording of second sentence is awkward. Suggest changing first two sentences to, "The Spider attaches the web strand to an object. Using this ability is a swift action that may be performed in the middle of a move action, in addition to any time she could normally use a swift action."
Brood Mother, first paragraph: "...and can thus track the location of the egg host or any hatched spiders within that distance, no matter where they are." Add the bolded text; current wording implies she can locate them anywhere at all. (Unless the intent was to allow her to follow them, a la Tracking, in which case...it still needs clarification but my wording above makes things worse.)
Brood Mother, final paragraph: "...only living foes that would grant experience to the Spider qualify to feed her young (creatures with too low a CR will not allow young to reach maturation." Needs a closing parenthesis.
Jerk Line: "This is a standard action involving a dexterity check opposed by the opponent's choice of Strength or Dexterity check. The standard size modifiers apply. This provokes no attack of opportunity and opponents do not get a trip attack against the Spider should she fail." A) Capitalize the first instance of "Dexterity check". B)Add a comma after "This provokes no attack of opportunity".
Silent Skirr: A) Capitalize Hide and Move Silently. Uncapitalize and italicize silenced, as the spell.
Weaver (indented example): See Web example, above.
Eerie Chitter: "Opponents who cannot see the Spider suffer a -4 circumstance penalty." Add "...penalty to their save." for clarity.
Arachnid's Bite: Current wording has all poisons reduced and switched to strength vs. "Con -" creatures, not just Con-damaging poisons. Alter as follows: "The Spider gains the ability to deal half poison damage to foes that are already immune (if the Spider's poison would deal Con damage to a foe who lacks a Constitution score, she deals 2 less ability damage and damages Str instead)."
Arachnid's Bite, option 4: "and its critical threat range increases by one step." See comments under Hill Giant. "One step" is ambiguous. Double stacking, double non-stacking, or increase by one.
And that's the Monstrous Spider nitpicked :smalltongue: Hope it was helpful.

Edit: More than welcome for Hill Giant nitpicking; glad it was of use.

[Benly]

Coure Eladrin
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v602/bensanaz/Eladrin_coure.jpg
Book of Exalted Deeds

Class:



HD: D6

{table=head]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|
Special

1st|
+0|
+0|
+2|
+0|Coure Body, Divine Tricks, +1 Dexterity

2nd|
+1|
+0|
+3|
+0|Eladrin Resistances, Trapfinding, Radiant Form, Magic Circle Against Evil, +1 Dexterity[/table]


Skills Points: (8+Intelligence Modifier) x 4
Class Skills: The Coure Eladrin’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Concentration (Con), Craft (Wis) Diplomacy (Cha), Disable Device (Int), Escape Artist (Dex), Forgery (Int), Hide (Dex), Knowledge (the planes) (Int), Knowledge (religion) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Open Lock (Dex), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Search (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Spot (Wis), and Use Rope (Dex).

Proficiencies: The Coure Eladrin is proficient with simple weapons and light martial weapons, plus the shortbow and longbow. It is proficient with light armor, but not with shields.

Coure Body: The Coure Eladrin loses all other racial bonuses and gains outsider traits and the good, chaotic, and eladrin subtypes, granting it darkvision out to 60 feet. Coure Eladrin are initially Tiny sized creatures with a base movement speed of 20' and a flight speed of 30' with average maneuverability; a flying Coure Eladrin must end its movement for each round on a solid surface. If the Coure Eladrin does not deliberately land, she flitters to the ground without taking falling damage as if under the effects of feather fall; the same occurs when falling for any other reason. A Coure Eladrin has Common and Celestial as starting languages, with additional languages for a high intelligence score as normal.
At 3 HD, the Coure Eladrin's flight speed improves to 40' with good maneuverability. At 5 HD it improves again to 60' with perfect maneuverability, and the Coure Eladrin need not end its movement on a solid surface.
Coure eladrin do not gain the normal benefits of the eladrin subtype, instead gaining the Eladrin Resistances ability at level 2.


Attribute Bonus: The Coure Eladrin gains +1 to Dexterity at each class level, for a total bonus of +2 Dexterity at second level.

Divine Tricks (Sp): As the embodiment of carefree cheer and joyous curiosity, Coure Eladrin receive a number of abilities that let them spread light and joy or sate their curiosity. Starting at first level, the Coure Eladrin gains a number of spell-like abilities, each usable once per day per hit die: dancing lights, detect evil, detect magic, faerie fire, magic missile, comprehend languages, and sleep. Each of these abilities has a caster level equal to the Coure Eladrin's hit dice and a save DC (where applicable) of 10 + 1/2 the eladrin's hit dice + the eladrin's Charisma bonus.
At 3 HD, the Coure Eladrin's Sleep ability improves. Instead of affecting up to 4 HD of creatures, the eladrin may choose to target a single creature with HD up to her own HD plus her Charisma modifier.
At 5 HD, the Coure Eladrin's Comprehend Languages ability may be used to cast Tongues instead.
At 9 HD, the Tongues ability becomes a permanent effect and is treated as a supernatural ability.

Eladrin Resistances (Ex): Eladrin are resistant to certain sorts of harm. A second-level firre eladrin gains resistance to acid, cold, and electricity equal to her HD, to a maximum of 10. Also at second level, she becomes immune to petrification, and at 10 HD she becomes immune to electricity.

Trapfinding: The Coure Eladrin's curiosity and love of exploration lets it uncover well-hidden secrets. At second level she gains trapfinding as a rogue.

Radiant Form (Su): Being a creature of light and joy is more than metaphorical. Starting at second level, the coure eladrin learns to transform into a form composed of that and little else. As a standard action, the Coure Eladrin may assume the form of a semi-substantial ball of light. She may remain in this form for up to one minute per day per hit die; this time may be divided up as she sees fit, but increments shorter than one minute count as a full minute transformed. Reverting to her normal form is a free action. In this form, the Coure Eladrin makes no noise and cannot be heard with Listen checks if it doesn't wish to be. She can choose how much light to shed, from the equivalent of a torch down to a barely-shimmering outline that casts no light radius, changing how much light she sheds as a free action once per round. In this form, it is only possible to hide if the coure's light radius is reduced to nothing; otherwise her bright glow will give her away. She may perform any activities in this form which she could normally perform despite her transformed state, subject to the limitations mentioned below. Other properties of the form depend on the coure's HD.
At 2 HD, she is misty but still tangible. All attacks other than force effects, effects with the ghost touch property, or other attacks that normally affect incorporeal creatures suffer a 10% miss chance per HD to a maximum of 50% at 5 HD. Any attacks made by the coure which are not themselves of these types suffer a 20% miss chance, which does not increase. She may move through openings smaller than herself - any opening large enough to shine a light through, although not sealed openings or solid surfaces.
At 5 HD, she becomes semi-intangible. She may now pass through solid objects no thicker than 5 feet.
At 12 HD, her alternate form becomes fully incorporeal. She cannot be harmed by nonmagical attacks, nor can she exert physical force on corporeal objects. Magical attacks other than force effects or ghost touch weapons have a 50% chance to fail to affect her. She is immune to critical hits and sneak attacks, her attacks ignore material armor, and she can pass freely through solid matter. This supersedes and replaces the previous miss chances and semi-intangibility.
At 16 HD, she may assume her alternate form at will with no daily time limit.

Magic Circle Against Evil (Su): The very presence of such a being as an eladrin deters evil. As a swift action, the Coure Eladrin may project a magic circle against evil with a caster level equal to her HD. She may maintain the magic circle for up to one round per HD per day. Dismissing the circle is a free action. At 10 HD, she may project the magic circle for as long as she wishes.



Comments

So I decided to actually get involved in all the nonsense instead of just arguing from the sidelines. Oh boy.

My first monster class, so I decided to lowball with a CR 2 creature. The coure eladrin embodies carefree wandering, good-natured pranks, and a joyous lifestyle, and serves as a messenger and scout for higher powers, so it seemed natural (together with its existing abilities) to make it a rogueish sneaking class. That said, I didn't change much from the base monster - I scaled down its stronger abilities so they could be built up to, made its Sleep scale better, and gave it trapfinding and a somewhat rogueish skill list so it could serve that role more effectively.

It's a lot in two levels, though - in addition to its spell-like abilities, it's Tiny and flies. The big problem I have in that regard is that I couldn't really wrap my brain around the image of this creature being unable to fly, so I restricted it to flitting from place to place - it's still good mobility, but the coure can't hover above an enemy and rain down tiny arrows. Likewise, it seems really baffling to have something shrink down to Tiny, and Coure are supposed to be 2 feet tall tops, so... it's tiny. I'm waffling on the resistances, since they're not really central to the coure eladrin. Tongues is also a general eladrin trait, but seems to fit well with the coure's theme of curiosity and wandering.


Changelog

3/2/11: Initial post.
3/2/11 (2): Added ability types, clarified actions required in some cases, added lack of armor proficiency, added falling-damage clarification.
3/3/11: HD changed from d4 to d6, light armor proficiency added. Both are in response to concern from an off-MB reader about excessive squishiness even for a tiny angelfairy thing.
3/5/11: Joyous Body changed to Coure Body. Clarified falling further. Miss chance from insubstantiality changed from 20% to 10% per hit die. Clarified hiding in alternate form.
3/16/11: Made several clarifications to Alternate Form.
3/23/11: Alternate Form renamed Radiant Form as it no longer matches the canonical Alternate Form ability.
3/24/11: Level 3 Sleep upgrade modified from "twice coure's HD" to "coure's HD plus Charisma modifier"
4/2/11: Eladrin Resistances renamed "Eladrin". It now grants subtypes as well. The "Eladrin" ability was not copied from previous eladrin because the previously-existing ability does not actually reflect eladrin's normal resistances.
4/7/11: Eladrin Resistances ability returned to previous name and moved to second level; subtypes subsumed into Coure Body with note on eladrin benefits. Hopefully this will be considered an acceptable standard for eladrin.

[Psyborg]

Coure Eladrin (Benly): Ugh, Tiny size and flight in two levels. I'm so glad balance critiques are not my department! Anyhow, here we go: Proficiencies: Should specify armor proficiency or lack thereof. Specifying shield proficiency or lack thereof couldn't hurt.
Joyous Body: Should be renamed to Coure Eladrin Body. Standardization is important.
Adding Common as an automatic language wouldn't hurt anything, and would make the monster a more convenient PC for those who rolled badly or are on low point buy.
The flight ability should probably include a statement about avoiding falling damage.
Divine Tricks: Recommend adding the following to the last line (the 9HD advancement that makes Tongues a permanent effect): "It cannot be dispelled, but does not function in an antimagic field."
Alternate Form: Needs to specify what action is necessary to end the ability, and whether beginning/ending it provokes AoOs.
Magic Circle Against Evil: Is it a swift action every round while in effect, or a swift action to activate and then it stays on until it runs out or you shut it off? If the latter, what action is it to shut it off?

Flavor-wise it seems good, if basic. But you can only do so much with two levels, especially with all the must-have stuff crammed in there.

[Hyudra]

Monstrous Spider (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10404448&postcount=542) Changes, March 2nd, 2011:
Numerous capitalization and structure changes.
Range increment/range clarified for web.
And erroneous range detailed under Silk Strand fixed.
Clarified range of Brood Mother's ability to sense where her implanted victims are.
Clarified that Eerie chitter adds a penalty to saving throw.
Clarified the whole "What happens when you have a con based poison that penetrates immunities and enemy has no con score" bit.
Clarified crit range under Arachnid's bite.
Thanks again to Psyborg for contributing the feedback necessary to make these changes.

[Benly]

Coure Eladrin: Ugh, Tiny size and flight in two levels. I'm so glad balance critiques are not my department!

This is a concern I have, yes. Hopefully, the requirement to land each round makes it somewhat more palatable, and I can't really make the coure eladrin non-Tiny without significantly changing what it is.


Proficiencies: Should specify armor proficiency or lack thereof. Specifying shield proficiency or lack thereof couldn't hurt.
Oversight. Fixed.


Joyous Body: Should be renamed to Coure Eladrin Body. Standardization is important.
Standardization is important, but so are abilities that don't sound incredibly stupid. For some monsters, (Name) Body sounds fine. Coure Eladrin is tragically not one of them.


Adding Common as an automatic language wouldn't hurt anything, and would make the monster a more convenient PC for those who rolled badly or are on low point buy.
Oversight. Fixed.


The flight ability should probably include a statement about avoiding falling damage.
Added.


Divine Tricks: Recommend adding the following to the last line (the 9HD advancement that makes Tongues a permanent effect): "It cannot be dispelled, but does not function in an antimagic field."
Alternate Form: Needs to specify what action is necessary to end the ability, and whether beginning/ending it provokes AoOs.
Magic Circle Against Evil: Is it a swift action every round while in effect, or a swift action to activate and then it stays on until it runs out or you shut it off? If the latter, what action is it to shut it off?
Fixed. I gave most abilities ability types, which answers some of these questions (Su abilities can't be dispelled and don't provoke AoOs by default), and clarified the others.


Flavor-wise it seems good, if basic. But you can only do so much with two levels, especially with all the must-have stuff crammed in there.

Pretty much.

[Psyborg]

Dang, you're fixing stuff faster than I can find it! Here's the next one:

Drow: Class Skills: "Knowledge (any one)" Was this really meant to only allow one Knowledge skill as a class skill? If so, it seems odd but I guess it's fine. If not, try "Knowledge (all, taken separately)"
Proficiencies: "The Drow is...Drow are..." Singular and plural in the same paragraph.
Drow Body: Just an idea: change automatic languages to "Elven and either Undercommon or Drow Silent"?
Attribute Bonus: Word order: "her choice of +1 to Dex, Wis, or Cha" --> "+1 to her choice of Dex, Wis, or Cha" seems more natural.
Warrior Caste: "The Drow is trained rigorously adapt cutthroat discipline to even esoteric or less militant schools of combat." Insert "to" between "trained" and "rigorously". Also, converting 3/4 BAB classes to full BAB one level at a time = holy crap gishtastic. Not OP at that slow rate as far as I can tell, but awesomely useful.
Assassin Caste: Flanking ability should note whether her allies treat the foe as flanked, or just her. "If she delivers damage..." should be "If she deals damage..."; it looks less weird.
Devout Caste: Should specify if she can later gain Turn Undead from another source.
Casteless/Exile: "...standing in society that he is or is close to being a slave..." Change "he is or is" to "he or she is".
Casteless/Exile: I realize they, uh, kinda deserve to be screwed. And I'm not complaining about free XP. But can't we throw them a little bit of a bone? Since they're liable to be doing it fairly often, the ability to not provoke AoOs for the first two squares of movement (instead of one) when performing the Withdraw action seems appropriate :smallbiggrin: Change it to an extra square per 5HD or something if you think it ought to scale.
Scheming: "...for the purposes of dealing with that foe only; Any benefits..." Change semicolon to period.
Drow. Cool. I just wish we could add a blanket ban on TWFing scimitars and/or black panther animal companions. Then it'd be all set :-)

[Hyudra]

Dang, you're fixing stuff faster than I can find it! Here's the next one:

Casteless/Exile: "...standing in society that he is or is close to being a slave..." Change "he is or is" to "he or she is".

The goal of that sentence, rather, was to say something like, "...standing in society that he is a slave, or is so low in status as to almost qualify as being one."

Edit

Drow (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=10473291#post10473291) Changes, March 2nd, 2011:
Fixed vague Knowledge under class skills.
Fixed singular vs. plural Drow is/are appearing in the same sentence under proficiencies.
Added Drow Silent under language options.
Changed wording under attribute bonus.
Clarified wording under Warrior Caste.
Assassin Caste now specifies that the bonus only applies to the Drow herself.
Devout Caste now specifies that the Drow can gain turn undead from another class or source.
Casteless Exile wording fixed, where sentence was both grammatically incorrect and misleading.
Casteless Exile drow now get the ability to ignore AoOs for their first 10' of movement, this extends with every 5HD.
Removed semicolon in Scheming. I'll use a semicolon and have it stick, one of these days!

[Psyborg]

The goal of that sentence, rather, was to say something like, "...standing in society that he is a slave, or is so low in status as to almost qualify as being one."

Ah! Got it now. My bad.

Working on plant symbionts for Greenbound Creature/Paragon as I write this. We'll see how far I get by the end of class XD.

Edit: One more thing: "Drow speak Elven and either Undercommon or Drow Silent as their starting language and gain additional languages for a high intelligence score as normal." First instance of "language" should be plural.

[Hyudra]

Edit: One more thing: "Drow speak Elven and either Undercommon or Drow Silent as their starting language and gain additional languages for a high intelligence score as normal." First instance of "language" should be plural.

Thanks, that's fixed.

[Mystic Muse]

On the monstrous spider, it says it bypasses immunity to poison, but what if the target also has immunity to ability damage?

[mootoall]

Oh, one other question for Gorgondantess- if they have, say, levels-1 Telepath manifesting, then multiclass into Psy Rogue with stacking PP, etc, does it have an effective 4 Telepath levels and 6 Psy Rogue levels? 'Cause that seems ... strong.

[Hyudra]

On the monstrous spider, it says it bypasses immunity to poison, but what if the target also has immunity to ability damage?

Clarified what I meant by 'immunity', there, to include both poison and ability damage.

[Psyborg]

Still not ready for formal critique, but for anyone who's interested, Oak and Sunflower symbionts are up (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10472865&postcount=920). Which, incidentally, puts us to four out of eight completed (or possibly out of seven, as I still have no idea what to do with the rest of Ivy). Halfway there!

Edit: Also, Hyudra, was it your intent for the casteless/exile drow ability to apply to all movement? When I suggested it, I only saw it as applying to the Withdraw action. If it's going to be for all movement, A) it's certainly a bit more on par with what the other castes get, which is probably a good thing, and B) I'd consider starting it at 5' and scaling from there so it's not too good when combined with the free experience.

[Hyudra]

Still not ready for formal critique, but for anyone who's interested, Oak and Sunflower symbionts are up (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10472865&postcount=920). Which, incidentally, puts us to four out of eight completed (or possibly out of seven, as I still have no idea what to do with the rest of Ivy). Halfway there!

Edit: Also, Hyudra, was it your intent for the casteless/exile drow ability to apply to all movement? When I suggested it, I only saw it as applying to the Withdraw action. If it's going to be for all movement, A) it's certainly a bit more on par with what the other castes get, which is probably a good thing, and B) I'd consider starting it at 5' and scaling from there so it's not too good when combined with the free experience.

I toned it down to 5'.

[Mystic Muse]

After looking the Monstrous spider over I give it my approval.

[Hyudra]

Waiting for Gorgon to give the final verdict, then.

Saguaro Sentinel - looks about done. Gorgon is satisfied. Your vote?

[Gorgondantess]

I'm thinking monstrous spider should be good to go for the list. Though, again, my attention span isn't quite great enough to coherently go over the class as a whole, so consider my recommendation quite fallible.

[Hyudra]

Monstrous Spider added to the list. Waiting for Kyuubi's a-ok on Senor Saguaro.

[Mystic Muse]

Senor Saguaro seems good to me. I hereby endorse it.

[bladesmith]

Remorhaz:
* "which deals 1d10+ 2*STR damage(bludgeoning)" (Rush) - implies the normal charges deal that, not the rush. Reword to 'dealing 1d10 + twice STr mod'?
* Trouble with item destruction like in Property Destruction is that you're destroying your potential loot.

So, I hopefully cleaned up Rush to your satisfaction, and replaced Property Damage with Feel the Burn. Feel the Burn was kind of a spur of the moment thing, so I'm not really sure how balanced it is, but I like the idea of having your heat do something other then cause simple damage. Though I did keep the "Burn through stuff" clause at the end, just for kicks and giggles. Bumped it up to 2*Con score damage, so that it could burn through a wooden door pretty quickly.

And hopefully I'll get some time to review some of these new monsters. I've seen a lot of fun stuff coming up here, and I wanna make my thoughts known.:smallcool:

[Mystic Muse]

Hey guys, we've been noticing a slight problem cropping up recently, and we want to address it for the sake of the thread.


Some of the new monster makers have been making the mistake of putting things in that violate the rules set out in the first post, or they'll choose a monster that they think looks cool but turns out being more than they can handle.

What we're proposing is this. For your first monster, please contact one of the council members, preferably by chat, before doing anything. This is merely meant as a preventative measure so that we don't have to keep directing you to the first post or reminding you of the rules. We'll review what monster you want to do, go over the monster class building guidelines, format and common pitfalls. This will be your monster building "License" Anyone who wants a license CAN get one, nobody will be turned down, Unless they show a clear unwillingness to follow the rules.

[Hyudra]

With that said, please share your feedback on the idea.

I can be contacted by PM or by aol instant messenger. My screen name for the latter is on my user page.

[Mystic Muse]

I can be contacted by PM or by aol instant messenger. My screen name for the latter is on my user page.

Same here.

I would also like to stress that this is for the sake of the thread. If this happens too often, it delays the rate at which the classes get done.

[Benly]

So, wait, do I need to now apply for a monstering license for my Coure?

Does.. does she need to get shots?

[NineThePuma]

Yes. Yes you do. Probably a good idea.

[Mystic Muse]

So, wait, do I need to now apply for a monstering license for my Coure?


Probably a good idea just so we know you're familiar with the guidelines and such.

Although, it's doubtful I'll respond tonight. I need to get off in about 3 minutes.

[radmelon]

If you'd like to request any smaller monsters, though, I'd be willing to look into them myself. I mean, pretty much everyone requests 20+ level monsters and it never happens. Ask for something of less than 10 levels and you're at least 393 times likelier to get it.

With this in mind I would like to request the Myconid (MM2).
Mushrooms away!

[Hyudra]

Benly & Mootoall have requested licenses & got 'em.

Wondering if/where we should keep a list of licensees.

[Frog Dragon]

Since I've been around since the Oslecamo Era, may I be so bold as to assume that I am already a trusted brewer? :smalltongue:

[Psyborg]

I'm kinda ambivalent about the whole license thing. *shrug* Glad managing this isn't my problem, and glad the people whose problem it is are taking action to deal with stuff, though.

Sent PM to Hyudra requesting license. Also, the real point of this post: license requirement should probably be added to the OP (and the random "[/quote]" tag at the end of the post excised while you're at it).

[mootoall]

I'm kinda ambivalent about the whole license thing. *shrug* Glad managing this isn't my problem, and glad the people whose problem it is are taking action to deal with stuff, though.

Sent PM to Hyudra requesting license. Also, the real point of this post: license requirement should probably be added to the OP (and the random "/quote" tag at the end of the post excised while you're at it).

Have I thanked you yet for your work? If not, thanks! It's like having our own little obsessive compulsive Homonculus doing the important work for us :smalltongue:

Edit: Huh, interesting formatting caused by that quote! Fixing it

[Psyborg]

Greenbound Creature / Greenbound Paragon (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10472865&postcount=920) is officially ready for first-round critiques. Five of the planned eight symbionts are done; I'm leaving the rest of them until I have a better idea what symbiont balance ought to look like (based on other people's critiques- I'm a poor judge of such things). Formatting/spelling/wording ought to be acceptable- I haven't done the fine-tooth-comb read-through yet, but I think it's fairly free of glaring errors.

Suggestions for additional symbionts and a first-level active ability for Greenbound Paragon are also welcome.


Have I thanked you yet for your work? If not, thanks! It's like having our own little obsessive compulsive Homonculus doing the important work for us :smalltongue:

And to think I haven't bothered requesting an avatar because I didn't know what to ask for. Thank you, sir, you have been most useful. *hurries off to the Request an Avatar thread*

[Hyudra]

Front Page (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=10122995#post10122995), Changes, March 3rd, 2011:
Added submission guidelines, removed the bit encouraging people to use Chumplump's template (which is now absent). There's now a list on the front page detailing the steps one should go through in submitting, including getting a license, not submitting a high CR creature for their first effort and spellchecking.
Random quote tag excised.

[Psyborg]

Somewhat-late fine-tooth comb of the Saguaro Sentinel: General: The Saguaro Sentinel currently has its class features italicized, which is correct according to the guide in the OP. Most dead-tree WotC books and most recent monsters, however, have their class feature names bolded instead. Not a correction, per se, but something to be aware of.
Attribute Bonus: I believe the usual practice is to capitalize the abilities ("strength" and "constitution", in this case), and they should always be capitalized when abbreviated ("+9 str, +8 con"). I personally would remove the comma and insert " and" in its place, but that's not strictly necessary.
Attribute Bonus: I would also phrase as "its attributes increase" rather than "it gains a bonus to its attributes", raising the base stats like at levels 4/8/12/16/20 rather than adding a bonus to them. This means that the additional stat points gained can be damaged by poison/magic/etc, and that they increase the amount of damage a poison/spell has to do in order to reduce that particular base stat to 0.
Natural Defenses: "A creature intending on taking an action..." Change "on" to "to".
"...from the thorns ability must make a will save (10+1/2 HD+Cha mod)..." Capitalize "will"; add "DC " at the beginning of the parentheses.
"... Sentinel's charisma modifier (minimum 0) plus a number equal to..." Capitalize "charisma".
"As a move equivalent action..." Remove the space and insert a hyphen between "move" and "equivalent".
"...failed their will saves to be unable..." Capitalize "will".
The move-equivalent action option needs to specify a duration for its effect.
"...as well as constructs and undead and anything else immune to pain..." Remove the first "and", replacing it with a comma. 1,000 Needles: "...usable only once per day per 2 HD..." The word "only" is unecessary.
"The first...Alternately..." Necessary: Correct "alternately" to "alternatively". Recommended: Change to firstly/secondly, the first option/the second option, either/or, or some such pair, or simply "It may X/Or, it may Y"
"...adds its constitution modifier to the attack roll or half its BAB, whichever is higher." Capitalize "constitution". Change wording to one of A) "adds its Constitution modifier or half its BAB, whichever is higher, to the attack roll." or B) "gains a bonus to the attack roll equal to its Constitution modifier or half its BAB, whichever is higher." (Basically, get the Con mod and the half BAB on the same side of "attack roll".) Pin Missile: "After using this ability, the Saguaro Sentinel loses is Thorns, Needle Arms, Pin Missile, Sweep (for the purposes of impalement), 1,000 needles & Thorny Grasp ability for 1d6 rounds as the Saguaro Sentinel regrows all its thorns." A) "loses is Thorns" --> "loses its Thorns"; B) "1,000 needles" --> "1,000 Needles"; and C) "...as the Saguaro Sentinel regrows all its thorns." --> "...as it regrows all its thorns..." or "...as its thorns grow back." (The second Saguaro Sentinel in the same sentence is redundant and awkward.)
Pin Missile: "This allows one less attack with Sweep, doesn't allow the Saguaro Sentinel to use Improved Grab with that arm's slam attack, and doesn't allow it to use Pin Missile with that arm. A Saguaro Sentinel that has lost all its arms' thorns loses 1,000 Needles orand Thorny Grasp until at least one arm's thorns areis restored." Capitalize or alter as bolded.
Even the Mightiest Fall On You: Alter "status effect" to "negative status condition". "Condition" is the correct terminology; "status" is retained and "negative" added for clarity. You may also want to except conditions that prevent movement (Paralyzed/Immobilized/Petrified/Pinned/Dead/Unconscious, possibly Grappled). If you want this ability to be usable in during conditions that do not allow a character to take actions, it should specify so; if you want this ability to be usable even when it's not the Sentinel's turn (as opposed to on its next turn after the status condition begins, and as indicated by the "when knocked prone" language), it couldn't hurt to say so explicitly.
Growth: "...and gains...gaining...gaining..." While the present wording is not incorrect, sticking to one or the other wouldn't hurt.
Sweep: "...make a reflex save (10+1/2 HD+Str Mod) or..." Capitalize "reflex"; add "DC " at the beginning of the parentheses.
"... and may attack it with a -4 penalty, though the Saguaro Sentinel is flat footed against these attacks." Altering wording to "attack it at a -4 penalty" makes it clear that the penalty is to the attack rolls and not anything else. Putting a period after "penalty" and making "The Saguaro Sentinel is flat-footed against these attacks." would eliminate a run-on sentence and make the paragraph easier to read.
"...taking both the damage the target would take and the dexterity penalty..." Capitalize "dexterity". The phrase "taking both the damage the target would take and" seems awkward; try altering wording to "taking damage equal to that dealt to the target, plus the Dexterity penalty..." or similar.
"...must make a balance check equal to..." Capitalize Balance.
"...; flying creatures fall to the ground, and both take appropriate falling damage." Should be its own sentence. Insert "they and the creature hurled at them" between "both" and "take" for clarity.
"...strength modifier and may be tossed..." Capitalize Strength; add a comma after Modifier. The sentence also has three instances of "Saguaro Sentinel", but eliminating them is difficult without using it/its, he/his, or she/her language.And that's all I have. Sorry I didn't get to it pre-approval. Hope it was helpful.

Edit: Any requests for next proofread? Anything ready or near-ready to hit the Finished list? Let me know.

Edit2: I just noticed this project is one supporter away from hitting the Homebrew Galleria (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=188341). Just letting y'all know, the nomination/support thread is here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=188088) if anyone wants to give us a boost. (While you're at it, take a look through the list of nominees (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10422452&postcount=28) and see if there's anything else you'd like to support, or nominate a favorite of your own. One nomination/day; no support limit.) This public service announcement was sponsored by Nerds for a Better Tomorrow.

[mootoall]

Actually, now that you mention it, I kinda want to do the Homunculus. Focusing on the version that I knew before reading the D&D fluff, which was little people who alchemists created to help them craft things, rather than little people who mages created to scout for them. Which I think is weird.

[Benly]

I made some minor tweaks to the Coure Eladrin (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10480332&postcount=1004) in response to a friend's suggestion. I'm interested to hear what people have to say about the class - it's short and fairly straightforward, so the main challenge was fitting in what it needs to be a coure eladrin without overloading it. I'll probably end up trimming some bits, but the things that can be easily trimmed without making it no longer a coure eladrin aren't really the things that create a balance problem.

[Hyudra]

I'm thinking I'll do another batch critique soon, today or tomorrow, to focus mostly on the new additions to the list. So stay tuned for that.

Beyond that, I'll be writing up & submitting another short monster in the near future. Leaning towards Leucrotta and Centaur (I saw a pic I liked, checked Oslecamo's centaur, and it's terrible). CR 4 and CR 3, if I'm remembering right.

[Volthawk]

Alright, time to update the fungus.



Level one looks better.

Good.

Poison looks borked though. It's not explained well enough, and RAW, you've got each Violet Fungus dealing 2 tentacle attacks, each delivering 1d4/1d6 Str damage and 1d3/1d4 Con damage a hit. That's... quite a lot.

Given that you've got two tentacles that can hit each round, starting from level one, I'd suggest something like a:
1d3/1d4
1d4/1d4
1d4/1d6
1d6/1d6
1d6/1d8
1d8/1d8
(And so on) kind of advancement, with less advancement for the con damage. It's not as much as the spider, but you're delivering two potential attacks a round, so enemies are going to suffer.

Done. Also I started the con damage at a later interval. Hopefully that'll help not make the poison too crazy.

Fungal Diversity:
Well, here we go. This is the part I was most unsure about.

"Creatures grappled by the Fungus have to save against the poison every two rounds." - clarify. Assuming I get your meaning, I'd reword to say you speed up the onset of secondary saves by a set number of rounds.
Well, what I wanted to say was that being grappled by the Fungus meant they were poisoned like they had been hit by a tentacle, but they were only poisoned every two rounds. Hope the new wording has cleared it up a bit.

"When a living creature grappled by the Violet Fungus save against the poison, they have to make another Fortitude save, DC 10+1/2HD+Con, or take 1 Con damage on top of any poison damage, as the tentacles eat away at the creature." - bolded bit. It seems to imply that when they succeed on the save, they have to make an additional save. Why not just say you add +1 con damage to whatever initial damage your poison deals?
Well, I kinda wanted it to be something separate from poisoning, but I could see it working as a bonus to the poison.

"heals the Fungus by an amount equal to its HD" - whose? The victims or the fungus'?
I said victim's, as it makes sense (I mean, a bear would give more sustenance than a rat).

"If the Fungus has Rapid Poison, the period between the normal secondary damage and this new damage changes to the time between primary and secondary damage." - this is really confusing. It isn't intuitive in the slightest.
[QUOTE]It's kind of inconvenient to stress how much the fungus has to do to survive. What if, instead of the Fungus player feeling like she's in constant peril of starvation, you just stressed the inherent benefits instead?
Ah. Well, thing is, it does eat differently, and I need to specify the way it does. I put the benefits before the eating requirements, anyway. Hopefully it helps.

Tough Fungus requires itself.
Yeah, that was because I originally had the names a little different. Fixed.
Capturing Fungus is a bit too much. Consider that at 10th level you could be dealing 1d6 Str damage, 1d4 Dex damage and 1d4 Con damage, and then 1d8 Str, 1d6 Dex and 1d6 Con damage the very next round. That's an average of 8 Str damage, 6 Dex damage and 6 Con damage. A little over the top, when you're doing that with both tentacles.

Paralysed -> Paralyzed. :smallwink:
Meh, I still say both are proper words, but alright.


Overall, much better at giving it a role (poisoner/debuffer), but a few tweaks still needed. Poison just seems to ramp up a touch too well, with the two types of ability damage together.[/list]
Yeah, I often seem to initially make it a bit weak, then go a bit too far buffing it up.

Link: Violet Fungus (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=10400122#post10400122)

[Hyudra]

Just FYI, there's two quotable sections of text in your reply there that you didn't quote or reply to.

[Psyborg]

Alright, time to update the fungus.

And time to proofread it. :smallsmile:
Table: "Violet Fungus body" Capitalize "body".
Skills: "2+int modifier per level, quadruple..." Capitalize "Int". Insert " skill points" after "modifier".
Proficiencies: Sentence is missing a period at the end.
Features: "Class Features" might be better. Not a big deal.
Violet Fungus body: In the ability name, capitalize "body".
Capitalize "plant" in "...gains plant traits...".
Plant traits are emphatically not "primarily low-light vision". They are: Low-light vision; Immune to mind-affecting spells or abilities; Immune to poison, sleep effects, paralysis, polymorph, and stunning; Not subject to critical hits (and therefore also not subject to Sneak Attack or other precision damage); Does not sleep. (I've been particularly aware of this lately, as that list of goodies is the main reason I abandoned the idea of letting Greenbound Creature actually gain the Plant type in a mere two levels.)
Tentacles should specify that they are natural attacks (or possibly "primary natural attacks"), and their damage type(s) should be specified. Ability score increase: Capitalize all three words. List the total attributes gained (append ", for a total of +2 Con by 3rd level." to the existing sentence).
Poison: Doesn't say anywhere that characters may choose between Str-damage or Con-damaging poison; the table and wording currently would give both. Also, change "...the Fortitude save against the poison is 10+1/2HD+Con mod." to "...the DC of the Fortitude save against the poison is 10 + 1/2 HD + Con mod." (clarifying that the DC of the save is what's being specified, and adding spaces around the "+" signs for easier reading).
Poison Spores: Should specify whether consuming small doses for a week makes the consumer immune to the spores of other Violet Fungi.
Poison Quickening: "...gains another use for every 5HD..." should be "...gains another use of this ability or of Poison Quickening for every 5HD..."
Rapid Poisoning: Changes "reduces" to "is reduced by", and specify a minimum 1-round delay.
Knockout Poison and Paralytic Poison (do I detect undercooked copypasta? :smallwink:): "...equal half the Fungus' HD." should be "...equal to half the Fungus' HD.
Improved Consumption: Run-on sentence; try breaking it after "equal to half the Violet Fungus' HD" and beginning the next sentence "These bonuses last for...".
Lasting "ten minutes per pound consumed" would be simpler and clearer than the current wording.
Should specify how long something can be dead before it no longer counts as "living flesh" (if any time at all)- can I eat my enemies as soon as the combat ends, or save them for lunch, or for tomorrow, or is Improved Consumption intended solely for those with helpless enemies or Consuming Tentacles?

And that's all. Looks like a nice class- I'd almost be interested in playing one. (Not quite, but come on, it's a fungus- "almost" is doing pretty darn good!)

Also, I finally got around to looking up the Goblins. That is both brilliant and hilarious.:biggrin: I sincerely hope that their second iteration over at the Homebrew Monster Classes thread proves finishable.

[Hyudra]

The post entitled 'Writing up a monster class, a guide' (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=10450355#post10450355) has been updated. Specifically, I've updated the Design Guidelines FAQ, offering a question & answer as far as guidelines & rules of thumb to design by.

This also freed me to delete the old Q&A spoilered at the bottom of that page.

Edit: Psyborg, this may be a really silly thing to ask, but could you check out the monster class template in the guide above, critique it for grammar/spelling errors, and give me back something I can replace the old template with? There's a few instances where some stuff (like the inconsistent Str mod vs. con modifier) comes up, but I'm not noticing all of them at any point I look, and I'm elbow deep in critiques & a ⅓-designed monster class at the moment.

[Gorgondantess]

Attribute Bonus: I would also phrase as "its attributes increase" rather than "it gains a bonus to its attributes", raising the base stats like at levels 4/8/12/16/20 rather than adding a bonus to them. This means that the additional stat points gained can be damaged by poison/magic/etc, and that they increase the amount of damage a poison/spell has to do in order to reduce that particular base stat to 0.
...Really?...:smallconfused:
Ugh. RAW nazism. So noted. Actually, I prefer just "gains +1 constitution", rather than "constitution increases by". I was doing the whole thing from scratch this time, though.
Anyways, I've noted your suggestions, but I'm keeping a few my own way. Personal preference.

[Psyborg]

Psyborg, this may be a really silly thing to ask, but could you check out the monster class template in the guide above, critique it for grammar/spelling errors, and give me back something I can replace the old template with? There's a few instances where some stuff (like the inconsistent Str mod vs. con modifier) comes up, but I'm not noticing all of them at any point I look, and I'm elbow deep in critiques & a ⅓-designed monster class at the moment.
Absolutely. Do you have preferences for the standard? So far I'm using "Str modifier": capitalized, abbreviated ability; unabbreviated, uncapitalized "modifier".

...Really?...:smallconfused:
Ugh. RAW nazism. So noted. Actually, I prefer just "gains +1 constitution", rather than "constitution increases by". I was doing the whole thing from scratch this time, though.
Anyways, I've noted your suggestions, but I'm keeping a few my own way. Personal preference.
That works too. (Anything that avoids the word "bonus" is fine by me.) And I certainly don't expect you to do everything I recommend. If there's a point, ability, type of wording, or whatever, where I'm repeatedly recommending a change you don't like, let me know and I'll stop/modify the recommendations.

*tasteless joke excised*

Edit: In-progress version of template rewrite follows. Sorry for huge post; it won't let me spoiler the code window.

Copy Pastable Monster Class Template:

[Monster]
Image URL Goes Here!
Monster Class [OR] Prestige Monster Class/Template
Source of Original Monster. For example: Monster Manual/SRD or Heroes of Horror

Class:


[Monster] Prerequisites
To become a [Monster], the character must meet the following requirements:

Prerequisite: Whatever that may be.
Prerequisite: Whatever that may be.
Prerequisite: Whatever that may be.

/////////////Delete everything from monster prequisites, above, down to here if if you're not making a template/prestige monster class.

HD: D#

{table=head]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|
Special

1st|
+x|
+x|
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+x|Class Ability

2nd|
+x|
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3rd|
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+x|Class Ability

4th|
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5th|
+x|
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6th|
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7th|
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8th|
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9th|
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11th|
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12th|
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14th|
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17th|
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18th|
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19th|
+x|
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20th|
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+x|Class Ability[/table]
//////////////Delete rows from the table until you have an appropriate number. Be sure to end with [/table]

Skill Points: (x + Int modifier) per level, x4 at first level.
Class Skills: The [Monster]’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Appraise (Int), Autohypnosis (Wis), Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disable Device (Int), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Forgery (Int), Gather Information (Cha), Handle Animal (Cha), Heal (Wis), Iaijutsu Focus (Cha), Hide (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (specific, each listed individually), Knowledge (all skills, taken individually) (Int), Listen (Wis), Martial Lore (Int), Move Silently (Dex), Open Lock (Dex), Perform (Cha), Psicraft (Int), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Search (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Speak Language (n/a), Spellcraft (Int), Spot (Wis), Survival (Wis), Swim (Str), Truespeak (Int), Tumble (Dex), Use Magic Device (Cha), Use Psionic Device (Cha), and Use Rope (Dex).

/////////////Delete class skills from the above list until you've got an appropriate selection. Also, delete "x4 at first level" if this is a prestige monster class/template.

Proficiencies: The [Monster] gains proficiency with...

/////////////Specify armor, weapon, and shield proficiencies, or lack thereof. If your [Monster] gains a natural weapon, it is a good idea to mention that it becomes proficient with it. If making a prestige monster class/template, specify whether it retains the proficiencies of the base creature (it nearly always will).

[Monster] Body: The [Monster] loses all other racial bonuses and becomes a [Monster Type] ([any Subtypes]). It gains [Monster Type] traits, granting it (list vision types, any type-based immunities or resistances). [Monster]s are initially [Starting Monster Size Here] sized creatures with a base land speed of [Movement speed]', possessing [Natural Attacks] that deal [damage] + Str modifier [Or 1.5, 2x Str, depending] damage and Natural Armor equal to their Con modifier. A [Monster] has [Language] as a starting language, with additional languages for a high Int score as normal.

/////////////If the monster does not have natural armor or natural weapons, delete the appropriate text from the above. The current standard is that this ability should always be named [Monster] Body, where [Monster] is the actual, exact name of your monster, e.g. "Fire Elemental Body" rather than "Flaming Body" or "Body of Flame". For Outsiders, be sure to specify what plane they are native to in the standard D&D cosmology. Monsters from Eberron-specific sourcebooks may specify a plane from the Eberron planar cosmology instead. Monster type and subtype traits can be found at http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/typesSubtypes.htm

Attribute Increase: The [Monster] gains +1 to [Stat] at levels [X, Y, Z], and +1 to [Stat] at levels [Q, R, S] for a total increase of at [whatever the highest level of the class is] level.

/////////////If your [Monster] gains less/no ability score increases, then edit/delete the above bit. Avoid using the word "bonus" in the above paragraph.

Class Feature: Starting at Xth level the [Monster] gains the ability to...

Class Feature: Upon reaching Xth level the [Monster] gains the access to…

Class Feature: At Xth level the [Monster] learns to…

Class Feature: Beginning at Xth level the [Monster] can use …

/////////////And so on. Remember to add (Ex), (Su), and (Sp) tags to abilities where appropriate, and specify what level an ability is gained at in the first sentence or so of its description (preferably in the first few words).



Comments

//////////////Your comments on the class, the creation process, ideas that went into it and stuff like that goes here.


Changelog

/////////////List changes you make in response to feedback, in as much detail as possible here. More details on writing a good changelog in the Changelog FAQ.

Above data is a version of the work originally done by Chumplump, as modified by Hyudra, Psyborg, and others. Many thanks to Chumplump.

Putting Together a Monster Class, Using the Above:
Before you start, check the Base Monster Classes, Prestige Monster Classes, Unfinished Monster Classes and the Called Monsters lists to be sure that someone hasn't already done the monster you're about to do, that they aren't halfway, and that nobody's called dibs (sorry, it's a first come, first claim basis, here).
Copy all the text in the above box into a new post.
Better yet, save yourself a lot of work in the long run by...
Copying it into notepad (word documents might cause you issues by trying to color the text or adding weird spaces), going to 'Edit', clicking on 'Replace...' ...
Put [Monster] in the 'find' box.
Put your monster's name in the 'replace with...' box.
Click 'replace all'.
Copy everything (Ctrl+A, then Ctrl+X)
Then paste it into your post field.
Preview often, replacing stuff in brackets that isn't formatting code (like ) with the appropriate details.
Stuff starting with ////////////// is just notes for you. Read them, then delete them so your monster class is tidy.
Try not to post your monster before you're done. If you're only half done, consider copy-pasting your text from the reply window to a word document and saving that. Alternately, you could try sending yourself a private message on the site, which gives you the ability to preview it.
Try not to have any text on the post with the monster class aside from what's absolutely necessary. Even a "Ta da! Here's my Hypnotoad that I spent hours on..." at the beginning is distracting to someone who just wants the monster, and makes it look messy.
When you're done, don't post right away. Start by spellchecking, then preview and read carefully through it as many times as you need, to be reasonably confident you didn't make any silly errors.
But wait, one more thing: Try looking at a well done monster class (see the 'what your post should look like when you're done' bit, below). Is there something drastically different about the look of the two posts? Did you add a new section? Does your post not have an image, or is the image hidden in the spoiler? If there's a big difference between your posts, you may have done something iffy.
If all that's done, post away.
Or:
Just quote another monster class, remove the quote tags, and strip it of everything relating to the monster it once was, everything you don't need, and then fill in the details. This is the preferred method of yours truly. Spell checking and comparing it to another monster class is probably a good idea.

What Your Post Should Look Like When You're Done:

Example (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=10262043#post10262043)

Design Guidelines for Monsters, a FAQ

Give me the basics

Monster classes, as designed by Wizards of the Coast, suck. They've got screwy HD, they've still got overpowered abilities, huge attribute bonuses and they're by and large pretty boring. Creatures with LA are little better.

So we're aiming to make monster classes that work. That means no huge attribute bonuses, monster abilities that would break the game are tweaked. Overall, we want to take the monsters which were designed by WotC to be easy, intuitive and quick for a DM to throw into a combat and make them into classes - which are more complex, more involving, interesting to play and depend on long term interaction with both a group and a larger campaign world.

Long and short of it, we're striving for:

Originality - The monster class should be unique. It should stand out from the rest, as a class.
Playability - The monster should allow for fluid, engaging, amusing and uninterrupted play at the table.
Balance - The monster should be balanced enough that it's not going to hold the group back or dominate everything without even trying, both overall and at a given stage in its development.
Elegance - The page which details the monster for the player should look good and be easy to understand.
Flavor - Last but certainly not least, we want to preserve the flavor and the atmosphere of the monster the monster class is based off of.
To these ends, there's a critiquing process where we'll go over your monster to find issues and help you work them out before we add the monster to the larger list.
What are some good rules and rules of thumb to go by?

Remember, monsters don't adhere to the type or the monster entry 100%. When designing the monster class, you should use the following standards and be able to justify anything different.

Maximum level in the class is equal to the monster's CR.
So essentially, a CR 7 monster will be a class 7 levels long.
We've proven that we can do this with every class to date. It can take some work, but you can make it fit.
People keep asking, and we keep refusing: Stick to this as though it were a hard and fast rule.
HD:
For those who are confused, HD for these monster classes is synonymous with ECL, or effective character level.
I'm stressing this because people don't listen: there is no need to match the size of the HD (d10, d8, d6, d4) to that of the base monster.
It shouldn't need to be said, but monsters get a HD advancement with every level in the class, unlike standard monster classes.
Monster class BAB tends to fall into four general categories:
Full BAB (ie. as a Fighter) goes to monsters that are trained and experts at fighting. Monster that, even without class levels, are capable of parrying sword blows and going head to head with a swashbuckler and not looking like a dunce in the doing.
¾ BAB (ie. as a Rogue) with Str bonuses for 'brute' monsters. The ones that aren't martially trained but still hit hard. The Str bonuses should be very consistent (+1 Str a level or +1 Str every ⅔ levels) to counterbalance the loss of innate BAB. They won't hit as often, but they'll hit hard.
¾ BAB for other monsters that don't fall into the above category and that aren't explicitly 'casters' in role and design.
½ BAB (ie. as a Wizard) for squishy monsters. These monsters typically have full casting or powers otherwise fitting to such.
Saving throw progressions have two variants for each saving throw, good (like a Fighter's Fortitude save progression) and bad (like a wizard's Fortitude save progression).
As a general guideline, think of what class is closest to your monster in design. Is it more like a barbarian, monk, a rogue or a wizard? If so, try using the save progression of those classes as a starting point.
Balance saves against HD, BAB and skills/skill points. A creature with full BAB and 6+int skills per level probably doesn't need good progression for 2 different saving throw types, let alone three.
Skill points per level and skills known generally stay within convention:
One thing many people get wrong is that they go for something unconventional with skill points, such as d3, d5, d7. This comes up more often than one might expect. Don't do it.
Skill points should, as with saves, reflect the role of the class. If the class is good at fighting on the front lines, it probably doesn't need to be a skill monkey too.
For skills known, try to keep it within a sane range of the skill points gained per level. A dumb brute with 2+int per level doesn't need 12 different skills for its skills known. Conversely, a more knowledgeable class with 8+int skills per level shouldn't have less than 10 skills on the list, lest it be forced to take cross class ranks.
In some cases, it bears noting, it may be justified to offer a monster talented in a particular field less skill points/skills known, but with racial bonuses or abilities that complement the skill. Convention for this is to offer a monster a bonus on uses of the skill equal to ½ its HD. One skill improved in this manner is enough, two is discouraged but allowed, three is too much.
Undead and constructs do not gain class skills. Plants should have relatively few.
Natural armor is reflective of an inborn toughness. Convention is:
Natural armor equal to one's Constitution modifier for 75-90% of the creatures out there with natural armor.
Natural armor equal to one's Constitution modifier +1, with an added +1 every time they grow a size category, for monsters with the kind of toughness that makes people wonder if their blades will dull on the monster's scales or hide (such as Dragons and Bulettes).
Weaker monsters may justify natural armor equal to ½ one's Constitution modifier. This is also a good idea if there are concerns about armor proficiency being coupled with natural armor for too much toughness, on monsters it doesn't fit.
Monsters without Constitution are justified in using natural armor equal to their Strength modifier (common for constructs and undead) or their Charisma modifier (common for psionic entities and other less solid beings).
Template/Prestige Monster Classes should offer a bonus to natural armor as opposed to a natural armor bonus, with the difference being that the former stacks with the latter.
It's often worth stressing for templates that involve growing natural armor, that they either gain natural armor or enhance any existing natural armor, to allow for a range of monsters taking the template/prestige monster class).
Ability score increases reflect increases in capability well above that of your average human:
A common mistake is to offer too much in the way of ability scores. Err on the side of caution.
Ability score increases should be one of the last things one adds to a monster class before submission. Get it done or nearly done, and then judge the overall efficacy of the monster and how well it reflects the capabilities of the base monster. Skill advances should generally shore up weaknesses and areas where the monster simply does not match up to the base creature.
Humanoids tend to get less (excepting those areas where the humanoid is a brute monster, as covered in BAB, above), while monsters without the ability to speak or perform fine manipulation tend to get a little bit more.
When distributing ability scores, try to have less/none at first level. This prevents a monster from becoming too good a dip - that is, it shouldn't be a class a player takes just one level in because the first level benefits are so good.
When in doubt, none at all. If that doesn't work, then try +1 per 3 levels.
Finally, where I've gone into depth on ability score bonuses, it bears stating that we try to avoid penalties wherever possible.
Abilities offered should strike a balance between active & passive. See a few questions below on the FAQ here for more details on what that means. Further:
No dead levels! That means no levels where the monster doesn't get any abilities. Such is boring and needless. Levels where the monster gets abilities that aren't worth using, as well, can be counted as dead levels.
Some monsters don't have enough abilities to stretch out over their full array of levels. Don't be afraid to come up with original abilities to fill in the gaps.
Further, some abilities that are integral to the monster just won't work as is. In this case, scrap the abilities and rebuild it from scratch, in a way that lets it progress steadily as the monster advances.
Movement modes are tricky because while they're common at mid-high levels, they can break the game at low levels.

Flight:
Shouldn't be granted before 4th level. Flight trivializes low level encounters, since very few enemies will have a way of harming a flying PC. It lets PCs hang in the air and fire ranged weapons until the enemies are dead, or escape unhindered if things go south.
Grant flight at 4th level if the base monster uses flight as an integral part of its nature. A wyvern, imp, giant eagle and giant wasp would be instances of monsters who just aren't the same without flight.
Grant flight at 5th level for creatures who get it, but don't rely on it. Cases might include some celestials and some humanoid psionic creatures.
For creatures who just can't deal without some means of flight before 4th level, consider a placeholder ability. The Harpy, for example, gains the ability to make augmented Jumps and Climb checks, using her wings to bear her up. The Wyvern and Imp can fly at early levels, but have to land at the end of each turn of flight.
Finally, we should give a nod to those creatures who levitate and lack limbs to carry them about. Beholders, brain in a jar and the like all float. To keep them from taking to the sky, consider an ability that lets them float only a certain height above the ground. At 4th-5th level they might gain an ability that frees them from this restriction.
Burrowing:
Same issues as flight. Though it's a little harder to attack from range while burrowed, burrowing creatures can go underground and pop up across the battlefield, pelt a foe and then duck back underground before the foe can close the distance. Also, like flying creatures, burrowing creatures can circumvent many dungeon features. Same general rules as flight.
Size increases are both common and beneficial.
Large size shouldn't be available before 4th level/4HD. Some unavoidable exceptions (Ogre among them), but try to avoid it where possible.
Huge size shouldn't show up before 12 HD.
Gargantuan size shouldn't show up before 16 HD.
Colossal size shouldn't occur before 20th HD.
Tiny size is problematic for other reasons:
Tiny size can't be avoided because it doesn't make sense for many tiny creatures (ie. a housecat) to start small and then shrink.
It tends to offer sizable bonuses, all things considered. The vast majority of tiny creatures get hide as a class skill, which makes for an easy +16 to hide at first level. With many getting dexterity bonuses, this can ramp up to +18 by second level. Most enemies will never beat that check.
It also offers a lot of penalties. To attack an enemy, one must move into their space. This severely limits one's options.
There's also the issue of sameness. Many/most tiny creatures play exactly the same, especially at low levels. Hide, move into an enemy's square, and dish out as much damage as you can.
The first fix for the above is to try to deviate from this formula in some fashion.
Having an active ability or movement mode that confers some benefit but prevents or hinders hiding/silent movement is one option; the Phase Wasp's flight is an example.
Alternately, consider the possibility of a small creature with slight build.
Damage Reduction, Spell Resistance:
DR shouldn't occur before 3rd level. Standard is DR equal to ½ one's HD.
SR shouldn't occur before 3rd level. Standard is SR equal to 11 + the creature's HD.
Full Casters:
Should be crafted very carefully to not overshadow the wizard, sorcerer or cleric.
Special abilities, uses per day and action expenditure:
Abilities should scale with HD. See the question below for more details on scaling.
If an ability is too powerful for low levels, it is perfectly acceptable to offer a weaker version and scale it up over time.
Uses per day should scale with HD.
If a spell qualifies as a save or lose (or 'save or suck', or 'save or die') - an ability that forces a save lest it effectively take an enemy out of combat, it should not become anything less than a move action.
What's this scaling thing people keep chanting at me?:

Scaling refers to abilities that get consistently better as you level. Consider the following hypothetical skill:

Smash that Doesn't Scale: You do 5 bonus damage.
Smash that Scales: You do bonus damage equal to your Strength Mod.
The former doesn't scale. You deal 5 damage, and while that might be perfectly good at level 1, when you're level 15, it's so useless you might as well not have it.

The second ability, 'Smash that Scales' does scale. If you're a melee class, you'll have 4-5 strength at early levels, but as you gain levels, your strength score increases, and Smash gets consistently better. By level 15, it might do 8-10 bonus damage. Hopefully, this scales well enough to keep the ability useful, so that you don't feel like you wasted the level by taking a level in the monster class. It also helps you feel like you're growing more consistently powerful.

So what are the ways I can make something scale?

There's a few ways to make something scale. Consider the following:

...This ability allows a saving throw, with a DC of 10 + ½ HD + Cha Mod.
This is how abilities and spells that demand saving throws scale 95% of the time. Generally speaking, it means that foes with bad saves & bad stats to apply to their saves will fail most of the time, foes with good stats and good stats to apply to their saves will pass most of the time. People in the middle ground have about a 50-50 chance. It's perfect.

This attack deals 1d8+Str damage
Simple enough, you do more damage as your strength gets higher. As a plus, for classes that grow, your natural attacks and most abilities that deal natural attack damage will also increase a step whenever you grow.

Shoop da Woop: Deal 1d6 bonus damage, plus an additional 1d6 for every 3 HD you have.
This makes for an ability that scales up in damage at a slow, steady, reliable rate.

You may cast Spell Like Ability twice a day, with an additional usage for every 5HD you have.
If you get an SLA or an ability with limited uses a day, chances are it's going to become a little less relevant as you gain levels. Getting more daily/hourly/weekly uses out of it is a good way to make it scale. If you feel you're getting too few uses at early levels and you can't figure out how to give more without having too many at high levels, consider something like, "You can use this a number of times a day equal to your HD or your Con mod, whichever is more." - it means you'll have between 2-4 uses at early levels, but you'll steadily get more later.

Smash: You deals 999 damage. At 9HD, Smash also forces the enemy to make a fortitude save or die.
Ignoring the ridiculousness of the example, note the 'at 9HD, Smash yadda yadda yadda.' - this is a case of upgrading an ability at a later HD. Whatever the case, try to emphasize scaling over HD rather than scaling with levels. The former ensures the ability stays relevant no matter how you multiclass. The latter (scaling by levels) tends to require you to dedicate yourself to taking levels in the class.

There's more ways for abilities to scale. Try looking at monsters that have been recently added to the list and look at how their abilities improve over time.
I'm being told to emphasize active abilities over passive ones. What does this mean?

There's two broad types of abilities a monster gets. Active and passive. Compare the following:

Netherbolt: The Shadowbat may, as a standard action, fire off a bolt of pure darkness, dealing 1d6 damage for every two HD the Shadowbat has.

Shadow Cloak: The Shadowbat gains a bonus to Hide equal to half its HD.
While both are fine skills and both scale in an appropriate way, the former ability is active. Netherbolt is a standard action, it requires the player to make a decision to use it, and it does something. The second ability is passive. It's always on. It's a set bonus that you don't need to think about. It does something all the time, with no decision making process involved.

So why is this important? In general, someone needs to beat an average of 13.3 fair encounters before they gain a level. Let's say our hypothetical player Johnny is playing in his DM's campaign from levels 1-6 with a monster class. That means Johnny is probably going to run up against 66 and a half encounters, give or take. If Johnny is playing a tentacle demon monster class with no active abilities, he's going to spend 66.5 encounters doing nothing but declaring charges, attacking, full attacking and maybe using a combat maneuver like trip, bull rush or grapple. It's not terribly exciting, it's not a boatload of fun. Whatever the passive abilities are, Johnny's probably not making many meaningful decisions.

On the other side of the coin, if Johnny is playing a monster class with active abilities, he's making the choice whether to use those abilities or to attack, whether to trip or to use his monster's tentacle love. There's choices made, and by making those choices, Johnny is getting more immersed in the game. Rather than just feeling like a beatstick that just happens to be dressed up like a tentacle demon, Johnny feels like a tentacle demon doing tentacle demon stuff. This is what we're going for.

What's going on with these undead and Construct monster classes? Why don't they have skills?

Undead and Constructs get a whole bunch of bonuses just for being undead/construct type. You're immune to poison, diseases, stunning, mind affecting stuff, morale effects, you get a bunch of HD, you can't be crit, you take no ability damage... the list goes on and on and on. It's a huge list of benefits!

To prevent them from being too powerful as one-level dips (creating situations where everyone takes single a level in, say, skeleton, to ensure they can be undead and they get all those choice benefits), there's a rule that if you're undead or construct, you don't get class skills. So you're forced to put ranks in cross-class skills. We generally aim for undead and constructs to be a little less powerful, as well.

Changelog FAQ:

What is a changelog

A changelog is a spoilered box at the bottom of your post that you keep notes in after you've posted the monster. As you make changes to the monster based on feedback and your own second thoughts, you list those changes in the changelog, keeping track and letting others keep track with you.
Why have a changelog?

Three reasons:
The first is for people critiquing the class. If they can read your changelog and know you've only changed abilities A, B and C, then they can focus their attention on those abilities and give you good feedback. If you don't have a good changelog, then they have to read your entire monster to find the changes. That's time consuming, and that means time not spent giving you good feedback.
The second reason is for people playing the class. Let's say you create the Longcat monster class, and Jack decides to play a Longcat. He's midway through a campaign using your longcat when you go back and change how an ability works. Jack goes to level up his Longcat, and, wait a second, stuff is different! Using the Changelog helps Jack figure out what just happened and ideally, lets him get his Longcat working again.
The third reason is YOU. Having a changelog helps you keep your head screwed on straight when you're making a lot of revisions. It keeps you on track and helps you remember what critiques you've responded to. As a side benefit, you can also copy-paste your changelog into a new post to let people know what you've done to fix up your monster.
What makes for a good changelog?

Example of a Good Changelog:

Feb 03, 2011:
[list] Gnaw bite & bonus damage now penetrate DR.
Excision bonus to saves is halved.
Tumescent recovery is clarified. Added a table elaborating on the healing amount.
Feb 06, 2011:
Gnaw (which was a singular bite attack that did bonus damage equal to the target's total HD, penetrating DR) replaced with Chomp, a single bite attack that can deal potentially massive damage, which was the intent anyways.
Clarified what Immobilization does, under Thrash.
Leaving Rend, Tumescent Recovery and Violent Onslaught alone until I decide what to do with them.
Feb 10, 2011:
Rend now only has a 50% chance of working if you use Furor, so there's a choice to be made in declaring your use of Furor.
Tumescent Recovery no longer grants healing each time you take indirect damage (indirect damage was hard to calculate and the overall effect was complicated) but now lets you force rerolls on all damage taken for the duration.
Violent Onslaught now has a 'rage mode', where a troll brought to low health, or a troll that offs an enemy, can use the ability again, with a small bonus.
Feb 11, 2011:
Changed Chomp (described above, in the changelog) back to Gnaw, but changed mechanics. It now lets the Troll bite, followed by making a Strength check against the foe. Each strength check you pass deals con damage and lets you make another strength check (with a penalty on the check and more con damage) until you fail.
Dates clearly defining what's been changed and when.
Changes are fairly detailed, giving the why, and cluing people into what used to be there before it was fixed or replaced.
Everything is ordered, organized and consistent.

What Makes My Changelog Suck?

A sample of the worst sort of changelog you can do:


.
.
.
.
.

Yes, that's right, no changelog at all is as bad as it gets.

But you can get something like this, too:


First change - A few typos and wordings fixed. Bash and Smash now read "Smashybash X, with the following exceptions, to avoid redundancy. Whomp and its Least form now have broken stuff deal some damage, and Whallop effects may have been changed slightly partially because I accidentally deleted the ability before making changes to it or copying it for reference. Thump no longer "permanent". Whomp (or more accurately, it's Least form) clarifies what happens to items that reach the Basher. Burrow speed now leaves a usable tunnel. Crump now requires balance, anyone who doesn't put a few ranks into that deserves what they get. A bit of text under Basher Body added to allow some speech, or at least suggestions for it. Last change I make - Clarification on damage dealing in Least Whomp. Whomp changed to free action.It's chaotic and doesn't serve to clarify much for anyone hoping to use the changelog to check something.
What if I don't have a changelog? I don't want to bother

It's your call, really, but you'll get less critiques, and those critiquing are going to be a lot less focused when they're replying to your monster. In turn, this means it takes longer before your monster passes muster and gets added to the master list. Some (yours truly included, most days) will just skip the critique half the time, if there's no changelog to work with.


Image FAQ

Image? I'm a little confused.

I'm referring to that picture that appears between the monster's name and the actual mechanical bits.
What if I can't find a good image?

Try searching on google images for the monster's name. It might also be worth checking out the monster's name in other languages like french, greek (especially for monsters borne of greek myth), latin, german, chinese or japanese (the latter two especially for oriental monsters).

That doesn't work? Search on DeviantArt. It might help to, after searching, click the list on the left for 'digital art', as that's the kind of image we want, 90% of the time.

That fails? Try asking in the thread for help.
I found an image but it's too big. How do I fix that?

Easy way: right click the image, and from the drop down list, click 'copy image location'.
Go to http://tinypic.com/ and click the bubble that says url. Ctrl-V (paste) the link you got from 'copy image location' into the box there.
Don't click 'upload now' yet! First click on the bar beside 'Resize:' and select Message Board (640x480). This is the size you want 90% of the time. Now click 'upload now' and fill in the Captcha (the 'I'm not an AI' verification thing) using the little refresh button as many times as needed if it's too hard to read. It'll take a second, and then you just copy-paste the link under 'Direct Link for Layouts' into your post.

Harder: Use Paint, or your Photoshop/Paint Shop program of choice and resize manually.

Last Resort: Ask in the thread. Hyudra is one person who can help out, but others might be available too. Just don't post the huge image and irritate everyone in the doing.


End of partially-revised template. We now return you to your regularly scheduled post.

[S]I think that's better. Not going to say it's done till I have a chance to reread and double-check it all. And that's re-read complete. Let me know if I missed anything.

Also, you know how long it's been since I read anything that actually bothered double-spacing between sentences? Roughly forever.

FYI, I also plan on making up a set of tables (hopefully this weekend, more likely early next week) that can be used for advancing Sorcerer casting after leveling in a monster class that gets spells known, spells per day, and spell levels as Bard and "Virtual Sorcerer casting" when it multiclasses into Sorcerer. Players of such classes might find referring to them less intimidating and error-prone than calculating it all out themselves.

[Gorgondantess]

*wonders if he should add "nazi jacket/hat/armband" to his OCD homunculus avatar request* :smallamused:

Absolutely.:smallbiggrin:
While your work is certainly appreciated, it would likely be best if you made this:

And I certainly don't expect you to do everything I recommend. If there's a point, ability, type of wording, or whatever, where I'm repeatedly recommending a change you don't like, let me know and I'll stop/modify the recommendations.
more clear in your wording. You use a lot of commands and throw around words like "necessary". We've had people come in here acting like they know everything in terms of monster making and throwing around commands, and it's really annoying. At least for me, the phrasing you use pushes a lot of the wrong buttons.
Y'know... it's not what you say, it's how you say it.

[Psyborg]

Apologies for irritating phrasing, and I'll do my utmost to avoid such in the future. Thanks in turn for all you've done for the project- a lot more than me, and it's appreciated.

[Benly]

*wonders if he should add "nazi jacket/hat/armband" to his OCD homunculus avatar request* :smallamused:


Please don't. I don't want to be The Humorless Jerk, but I'm Jewish and I'd really rather not have to skim past a "hilarious" homunculus wearing a Nazi uniform every time I browse the thread.

[Gorgondantess]

Please don't. I don't want to be The Humorless Jerk, but I'm Jewish and I'd really rather not have to skim past a "hilarious" homunculus wearing a Nazi uniform every time I browse the thread.

Well, yeah, it's kindof against the forum rules. Which none of us would ever break. Nosiree. >.>


Apologies for irritating phrasing, and I'll do my utmost to avoid such in the future. Thanks in turn for all you've done for the project- a lot more than me, and it's appreciated.

Not a problem. But, y'know, it made my first impression of you... less than positive.:smallredface:

[Benly]

Well, yeah, it's kindof against the forum rules. Which none of us would ever break. Nosiree. >.>


Sorry, just a little too used to internet forums where "hilarious" use of Nazi imagery is pretty common.

[Mystic Muse]

Sorry, just a little too used to internet forums where "hilarious" use of Nazi imagery is pretty common.

I could see somebody using a "Grammar nazi" avatar, but any decent person I know of would only use that until either A. Somebody brought up that it offended them even thought it's a joke or B. They decided that they'd had enough of the joke.

[Psyborg]

Not a problem. But, y'know, it made my first impression of you... less than positive.:smallredface:

Then I shall have to work to overcome that in the future. :smallredface:


*objections to nazi avatar*

Well, the remark was tongue-in-cheek, but still thoughtless, and I apologize for it. (I seem to be doing that a lot just now...:smalleek: ) I assure you I had no intention whatsoever of actually using such an avatar.

[Benly]

Well, the remark was tongue-in-cheek, but still thoughtless, and I apologize for it. (I seem to be doing that a lot just now...:smalleek: ) I assure you I had no intention whatsoever of actually using such an avatar.

It's okay, I don't object to terms like "grammar Nazi" and so on. It's just actual Nazi imagery on people's avatars for comedic effect is something I've seen in various sites and it always kind of unsettles me.

[Mystic Muse]

It's okay, I don't object to terms like "grammar Nazi" and so on. It's just actual Nazi imagery on people's avatars for comedic effect is something I've seen in various sites and it always kind of unsettles me.

Yeah, I don't get what people find funny about things like that.

[The Winter King]

With this in mind I would like to request the Myconid (MM2).
Mushrooms away!

Ill do them, I love the Myconoids. Got a wooden mushroom named Milton from a renaissance faire.

Also what do I need to do to get the Phase Wasp and the Jovoc off of the unfinished Monster List.

Edit: What are these lisences I keep hearing about? Explain please.

[Psyborg]

Glad I didn't permanently offend anyone. :smallredface: :redface: Regardless, the joke in question has been excised from the post.

Moving on to more cheerful things: Hyudra, I believe the template in this post (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10488006&postcount=1045) should now be satisfactory. Let me know if there are any further issues.

[Lizard Lord]

@Half-Dragon: So...a dragon can take half-dragon? Wouldn't that just be a full dragon?

[Crafty Cultist]

@Half-Dragon: So...a dragon can take half-dragon? Wouldn't that just be a full dragon?

A Half-dragon dragon is the child of two different types of dragon. It happens

[Lix Lorn]

Prerequisites:
Knowledge: Arcana 4 ranks.
Language: Draconic.
Able to cast at least 1st level spells from any spontaneous spellcasting class.
Any creature type but undead or construct. Dragons are extremely prolific creatures, but even they can't mate with the inanimate.

So... you can't take levels in half dragon until level two? :smallconfused: When you suddenly grow scales and wings?
Also, I kinda thought we were trying to make dragons less uber-gishy?
...also, no love for vampirific dragons? :P

As well, I'd ask for a little more leeway in breath weapons. For example, 'If the parent dragon has a breath weapon not entirely composed of one of these energy types, it deals the same type as the parent dragon, at 1d6/HD'

And, aren't Breath Weapons always worked out with Con modifiers?

To be completely honest, I thought the first Half Dragon was pretty fair...
...and isn't Half Dragon +3 LA?

...and I'm being sooo critical todaaaay. DX Your mileage may vary?

[Mystic Muse]

Your mileage may vary?

It may, but I agree with pretty much everything you just said. Except the part about you being critical. Don't know if I can agree to that.

Also, the picture doesn't look very draconic, it looks....Hairy.

[Bloody Initiate]

I've noticed you guys have made several constructs but never give them class skills. This only makes sense if they're the "Awakened" variety.

In 3.5 constructs with intelligence scores have skill points, and any creature with skill points has class skills (Although often only one or two). Class skills are not decided by creature type, they're decided by the specific creatures. Even most animals have class skills. As long as it has an intelligence score, it has skill points, and as long as it has skill points, it has class skills.

Every monster with an intelligence score has class skills, you figure them out by looking at their entry and breaking down the math.

So we'll look at the Zelekhut entry for instance:

It has 8 hit dice with 2 + int per level with 4x at first level. It has no intelligence bonus (10 intelligence), so just 22 skill points. Enough to get two skills to max or to sprinkle the skill points around. It also gets a +4 racial bonus on Search and Sense Motive. Its maximum ranks in cross-class skills is 5.

It has Str 21, Dex 11, Con -, Int 10, Wis 17, and Charisma 15.

Its skills are: Diplomacy +4, Listen +9, Search +9, Sense Motive +12, Spot +9, Search 3 (+5 following tracks)

Diplomacy +4 (+2 Charisma, +2 Synergy)
Listen +9 (+3 Wisdom, +6 ranks)
Search +9 (+0 Intelligence, +4 racial, +5 ranks)
Sense Motive (+3 Wisdom, +4 racial, +5 ranks)
Spot +9 (+3 Wisdom, +6 ranks)
Survival +3 (+3 Wisdom)

So by breaking down the math we see that the Zelekhut spent no skill ranks in cross-class skills because it could not have afforded to put 6 ranks into two skills. Also we see that at least the two skills it put 6 ranks in must be class skills because the maximum ranks it can afford in cross-class skills is 5. So the Zelekhut must have Listen, Search, Sense Motive, and Spot as class skills because although it only has 5 ranks in Sense Motive and Search it couldn't have afforded 5s if those were cross-class because it spent 12 of its 22 on Listen and Spot. I would also say it probably has Survival as a class skill since it gets a racial bonus, but it just didn't bother putting any ranks in it.

The Nimblewright's 3.5 update entry shows it has ranks in Jump and Tumble. So at the very least it has those two skills as class skills. .

The Force Golem's entry shows it has Balance, Jump, and Tumble for sure and probably has Listen and Spot.

I just thought I'd suggest a way I saw for you guys to improve your class construction guidelines. At the moment you're shafting a lot of constructs that earned no shafting.

[Frog Dragon]

A wild critique appears (for Gorgondantess' Half-Dragon)!


Prerequisites:
Knowledge: Arcana 4 ranks.
Language: Draconic.
Able to cast at least 1st level spells from any spontaneous spellcasting class.
Any creature type but undead or construct. Dragons are extremely prolific creatures, but even they can't mate with the inanimate. I don't particularly like this. Two reasons. Dragonic creatures are already gishy enough, and this class doesn't let you take it until level 2. Which is weird, because half-dragon is, fluffwise, just as born into as half-elf or half-orc, and barring special circumstances, you don't become one. You are born as one. I'd just remove the prereqs and note that it should typically be taken at level one.

HD: d12
{table]Level|Bab|Fort|Ref|Will|Feature|Spellcasting
1|+ 1|+2|+0 | + 2|Half-Dragon Body, Breath Weapon Heritage, Wings, Bonus Spell, +1 Str, +1 Cha|--
2|+ 2|+3|+0 | + 3|Breath Channeling, Bonus Spell, +1 Str, +1 Cha|+1 level of spontaneous spellcasting class
[/table]

Skills: 2 + Intelligence modifier per level.
Class skills: Appraise, Concentration, Intimidate, Knowledge (Arcane), Search, Spellcraft, and Spot.
Proficiencies: The Half-Dragon gains proficiency with its own natural weapons.

Half-Dragon Body:Unlike other monster classes, the Half Dragon doesn't lose his racial ability modifiers, but he does gain Dragon traits, which includes Darkvision out to 60' and immunity to Sleep & Paralysis effects. The Half-Dragon also gains a bite attack and 2 claws as secondary and primary natural weapons, respectively, with the bite starting at 1d6+1/2 Str and the claws at 1d4+Str damage for a medium creature. Those who already possess a claw and/or bite attack keep their normal natural weapons, and their claw and/or bite damage increases as if they had increased in size by one step.
Finally, the Half-Dragon gains a bonus to natural armor equal to one half its charisma modifier. This stacks with natural armor from other races. Three natural attacks at first level? Granted, they aren't all that good natural attacks, but it is still a lot better than the RotD kobold, which may not be a good thing.

Breath Weapon Heritage: At 1st level, the Half-Dragon chooses its draconic heritage. Rather than choosing a specific dragon type (though it may certainly do so if it chooses), the Half-Dragon has leeway in this matter.
It gains a breath weapon usable once every 1d4+1 rounds that deals 1d8/2 HD damage of either acid, cold, electricity, fire or sonic damage. Those who choose sonic instead deal 1d6/2 HD damage. Regardless, they gain a resistance to the energy type they choose equal to their HD. The Half-Dragon can choose either a line or cone breath weapon: the cone has a range of 15' plus 5'/2 HD, and the line has a range of 30' plus 5'/HD.
Like all breath weapons, those within the area of the half dragon's breath weapon may make a Reflex save DC (10+1/2 HD+Cha mod)
Finally, the Half-Dragon may add one skill of its choice to its list of class skills in this and every class to represent its draconic heritage: for example, a half bronze dragon might choose bluff, while a half shadow dragon might choose hide. I see nothing wrong here, except that the ranges are getting pretty huge at the later levels. (65ft cone! Woo!) Then again, the time the areas go over the nonstandard, it's mid levels at the very least, so it can probably slide.

Wings:While the Half-Dragon gains wings, they are not very adept at lifting its clumsy hybrid body. Initially it merely gains a bonus to jump checks equal to its HD and halves all falling damage. By 5 HD, the Half-Dragon is able to fully utilize its wings, gaining a fly speed equal to its land speed with Poor maneuverability. This increases to twice its land speed by 8 HD and Average maneuverability by 12 HD. Looks good to me.

Bonus Spells: The Half-Dragon, at first level, gains a bonus spell per day that it may assign to any spell level. Every time it levels up, it may change which spell level the bonus spell is assigned to.
At 2nd level, the Half-Dragon gains an additional bonus spell per day, though it may not assign both its bonus spell per day to the same spell level unless it can only cast one level of spells. Random bonus spells? Taken off the Dragon Disciple? I'm not sure how necessary these are, especially given my (and other people's) responses to the gishiness of this template at the moment.

Ability Score Increases: The Half-Dragon gains +1 Str & Cha at every level, for a total of +2 to Strength & Charisma at level 2. Everything looks cool here.

Spellcasting: At 2nd level, the Half-Dragon advances +1 spellcasting level of the spontaneous spellcasting class used to qualify for this template, just like a PrC would. Again, I'm not sure about the spellcasting abilities. In this case, this would make it more accessible to mages though, which could be a good thing. Maybe give an option between this and some other extra?

Breath Channeling: At 2nd level, the Half-Dragon becomes able to channel its magic through its breath weapon in two ways. In both applications, this ability is activated as a full round action, consumes 2 uses per day of the spell of choice, counts as casting a spell for the purposes of attacks of opportunity, spell interruption, etc., and doubles the cooldown time of the breath weapon.
Breath Weapon Admixture: With this ability, the Half-Dragon casts a spell and charges it with the energies of its breath weapon. Those who are affected by the spell must also make a Reflex save equal to the Reflex save of the Half-Dragon's breath weapon or take damage as if struck by the breath weapon (though they do not get a second save against this effect.)
Spell Breath: This ability allows the Half-Dragon to "breath out" a spell in place of its breath weapon. Those spells that require an attack roll instead allow a Reflex save equal to that of the breath weapon to negate the effect: otherwise, all within the breath weapon's area are affected as if the spell was cast on them. While the abilities are pretty fitting (also, yoinked for my Black Dragon) and flavorful, they once again, only cater to the casters, which I don't particularly like. Again, maybe give an alternate to this?
My general beef with this class is the caster-focus, starting from the prerequisites, and ending with all the cool abilities needing casting to do anything. In addition, it should be accessible at first level, and indeed, the default assumption should be that you take this at first level, because you don't suddenly become a half-dragon, you are born as one.

There we go. Was kind of unsure about critiquing this, since the maker is Gorgondantess, and I'm not that experienced a brewer in comparison. However, even a broken clock is right twice a day, and I thought my insights might make some sense, so I posted this anyway.

[Hyudra]

Oh man, my internet service provider suddenly stopped providing me with internet access last night. What was a leisurely evening alternating between work & monster class stuff became a scramble to try and get my internet back up, then to find a friend who'd let me use their internet (which failed, my 'friends' either weren't replying, were out or were unable), and ultimately had me going across half the city to use a computer in a library, piles of work documents in hand, to get stuff done for this morning.

...and now it's inexplicably back up.


[Comprehensive review of the template/FAQ post]

You're a hero. I didn't expect you to go over the FAQ as well. Just the cut & paste template.


Also, you know how long it's been since I read anything that actually bothered double-spacing between sentences? Roughly forever.

Haha. Funny thing is, the board automatically contracts it to one space anyways. It's just so ingrained in me I can't help but do it.


Hueg Half Dragon Picture with ugly text

I did tell you to crop that if you used it. Here:

http://i56.tinypic.com/25kmmqd.jpg
A cropped version of your half dragon pic.


Also what do I need to do to get the Phase Wasp and the Jovoc off of the unfinished Monster List.

Edit: What are these lisences I keep hearing about? Explain please.

Phase Wasp & Jovoc will be covered in another batch critique, either today or tomorrow, depending on how many people have updated their monsters since the last batch critique. Make sure you're replied to the last critique & detailed such in a changelog, as I skip any monster that hasn't visibly edited between the past critique and the present.

Licenses are explained in the first post of the thread.


I've noticed you guys have made several constructs but never give them class skills. This only makes sense if they're the "Awakened" variety.

That's explained in the FAQ. I'll quote:



What's going on with these undead and Construct monster classes? Why don't they have skills?

Undead and Constructs get a whole bunch of bonuses just for being undead/construct type. You're immune to poison, diseases, stunning, mind affecting stuff, morale effects, you get a bunch of HD, you can't be crit, you take no ability damage... the list goes on and on and on. It's a huge list of benefits!

To prevent them from being too powerful as one-level dips (creating situations where everyone takes single a level in, say, skeleton, to ensure they can be undead and they get all those choice benefits), there's a rule that if you're undead or construct, you don't get class skills. So you're forced to put ranks in cross-class skills. We generally aim for undead and constructs to be a little less powerful, as well.

edit:

yoinked for my Black Dragon

This is a good excuse to raise a subject that came up in conversation with Gorgondantess some time ago. What are your guys' opinions on having material 'borrowed' from one monster class and used for another?

I ask because I got my start in this project doing the giants, and I went to a lot of effort to try and come up with unique abilities for each flavor of giant. Imagine my surprise, then, when one or two of these unique, giant-specific abilities showed up on the Titan. I felt this detracted from the Giant in question, but as the Titan was raised, finished and accepted for the list during a period when I wasn't posting, I didn't really feel I could make an issue of it. It still left a sour taste in my mouth at the time. It happened again with the Remorhaz (several abilities borrowed from my Purple Worm), but Bladesmith was kind enough to change at my request.

So, I ask, people, what is your opinion on partial or wholesale borrowing of monster class material?

[Frog Dragon]

This is a good excuse to raise a subject that came up in conversation with Gorgondantess some time ago. What are your guys' opinions on having material 'borrowed' from one monster class and used for another?

I ask because I got my start in this project doing the giants, and I went to a lot of effort to try and come up with unique abilities for each flavor of giant. Imagine my surprise, then, when one or two of these unique, giant-specific abilities showed up on the Titan. I felt this detracted from the Giant in question, but as the Titan was raised, finished and accepted for the list during a period when I wasn't posting, I didn't really feel I could make an issue of it. It still left a sour taste in my mouth at the time. It happened again with the Remorhaz (several abilities borrowed from my Purple Worm), but Bladesmith was kind enough to change at my request.

So, I ask, people, what is your opinion on partial or wholesale borrowing of monster class material?
I kinda phrased that badly. I only meant that the concept of breath weapon spells was pretty much exactly what I was looking for with the Dragon Mage Path. I'm not going to actually yoink the ability unless Gorgon gives me the go-ahead, and I might not do it even then.

Edit: And yeah, unique abilities feel a lot like "my" work, and I wouldn't be all that sure on.. for example, someone copying the Cursed Wound line of abilities from my Nycaloth. I'd at least want them to note in comments where they got them from.

[Lizard Lord]

So, I ask, people, what is your opinion on partial or wholesale borrowing of monster class material?
If you have permission from the original homebrewer, I see nothing wrong with it.

[Frog Dragon]

If you have permission from the original homebrewer, I see nothing wrong with it.
Yeah, that's the key part.

[Bloody Initiate]

Undead and Constructs get a whole bunch of bonuses just for being undead/construct type. You're immune to poison, diseases, stunning, mind affecting stuff, morale effects, you get a bunch of HD, you can't be crit, you take no ability damage... the list goes on and on and on. It's a huge list of benefits!

I bolded the part that makes no sense.

You do NOT get a bunch of HD, there is no basis for that statement at all. You get the same amount as anyone else. The Force Golem has 4, the Nimblewright has 7. That's not a bunch, that's their CR.

Also half the immunities can be duplicated with low level stuff.



To prevent them from being too powerful as one-level dips (creating situations where everyone takes single a level in, say, skeleton, to ensure they can be undead and they get all those choice benefits), there's a rule that if you're undead or construct, you don't get class skills. So you're forced to put ranks in cross-class skills. We generally aim for undead and constructs to be a little less powerful, as well.

First off I'm pretty sure these classes are supposed to be cross-classable. So setting them up to avoid one-level dips doesn't make any sense.

It makes even less sense when you consider the player can get the benefits of the undead type from Necropolitan - and it's better that way, and they can grab a lot of nice construct stuff with warforged - which are also mostly better than basic constructs despite fewer immunities.

The last sentence is just silly. It says "We generally aim for undead and constructs to be a little less powerful" but does not specify "after immunities." To a new builder this looks like a license to screw over two types for no reason at all.

Finally, the decision still makes zero sense because that's not how the game works. If you have an intelligence score, you have class skills. It's simple. Just like you get a feat every third level, you get class skills if you're intelligent. There's no good reason to deny the classes that, it just makes them significantly less functional.

Obviously you're entitled to do whatever you want, I just think that portion of the guidelines needs another look because it looks as outdated as 3.0. I know you guys have a council for deciding this kind of thing.



So, I ask, people, what is your opinion on partial or wholesale borrowing of monster class material?

Open Source.

It's a little frustrating to watch people gank your ideas without asking or crediting you, but I hold to the philosophy that a good idea remains good whether or not the original author gets credit.

Also I personally would want to reuse good ideas I had, so I wouldn't want people telling me to think of something original every time when I was actually quite thrilled with the work I'd already done and enjoy borrowing from my own good foundations.

Believe it or not it's possible for two people to have the exact same idea without any interaction or influence between them. I made a rule for a different game awhile back and later found it duplicated exactly, down to the name and the mechanics. I don't believe the guy stole the idea, I think he just happened to build the same ability and name it the same as I did by pure coincidence. I still did it first, but that doesn't make him a thief, just late to the party.

Furthermore, consistency is good. How many base classes have Uncanny Dodge? Is everyone stealing from the Barbarian because that class was the first one printed? No, a good idea that gives a solid, balanced mechanical advantage should be copied a dozen times over. Imitation is the highest form of flattery.

Finally, you're already borrowing material wholesale. To try and put your name on it and claim it as yours is silly, that's like making a Fighter fix and claiming no one else can fix the fighter.

[Psyborg]

Perhaps adding this to the general FAQ:
Borrowing Abilities from Other Monster Classes: There are a lot of excellent abilities that have already been created for monsters in this project, and you may feel that one of them would complement your current project. However, a lot of work has gone into the creation of unique and flavorful abilities for individual monsters, and their creators may not want them copied throughout the project. If you want to use a unique ability originally created for another monster class, please ask the creator of that class first. In the event of inactive posters and non-response to such requests, go ahead and use the ability, with a note in the comments that they didn't respond, and be aware that it may have to be removed if they request such at any point during the critique process. Regardless of their response or lack thereof, content borrowed from other monster classes should always be credited to the original monster and its creator in the Comments section." And add the following to the codebox under the Comments spoiler:
//////////////If your monster has an ability originally created for a previous Monster Class, remember to credit the class and its author here.

I don't think we ought to allow such abilities' original creators to ask that they be removed from things on the Finished Monsters list; people may already be playing them, and removal of a major ability could very well require a complete re-write of the monster, with the ensuing hassle and delay for all involved. However, a good-faith effort to contact the original creator of the content for permission, and credit given to the creator whether they respond or not, is, I believe, sufficient to satisfy both good manners and our ethical duty to the content's creator.

[Bloody Initiate]

Psyborg's solution is easily the most elegant.

I still gawk in amazement at people who post on a public forum getting upset about their idea showing up elsewhere, but I'm one end of the spectrum and a new member, so my views are irrelevant.

The other silly thing: I thought the dream of every homebrewer was that their material would be seen as worthy enough to be used. I know my work is unlikely to be used, but I love the idea of it seeing use anyway. It's flattering, and it validates my effort as something more than my personal pursuits (If it was just for me, I wouldn't put it on a public forum)

[Hyudra]

I bolded the part that makes no sense.

You do NOT get a bunch of HD, there is no basis for that statement at all. You get the same amount as anyone else. The Force Golem has 4, the Nimblewright has 7. That's not a bunch, that's their CR.

Also half the immunities can be duplicated with low level stuff.

Rather, they have large HD (d12) regardless of role. Poor wording on my part.

Edit: In any event, in regards to what Bloody Initiate is arguing - one of the things we go for in this thread is to have monster classes that stand out from the rest. If someone's copying stuff to fill in gaps in their own monsters, it points to laziness on their part and it makes for a degree of sameness across the board. In the doing, they're also detracting from the uniqueness of the monster they're borrowing from. This is what's irritating about it.

[Frog Dragon]

Open Source.

It's a little frustrating to watch people gank your ideas without asking or crediting you, but I hold to the philosophy that a good idea remains good whether or not the original author gets credit.

Also I personally would want to reuse good ideas I had, so I wouldn't want people telling me to think of something original every time when I was actually quite thrilled with the work I'd already done and enjoy borrowing from my own good foundations.

Believe it or not it's possible for two people to have the exact same idea without any interaction or influence between them. I made a rule for a different game awhile back and later found it duplicated exactly, down to the name and the mechanics. I don't believe the guy stole the idea, I think he just happened to build the same ability and name it the same as I did by pure coincidence. I still did it first, but that doesn't make him a thief, just late to the party.

Furthermore, consistency is good. How many base classes have Uncanny Dodge? Is everyone stealing from the Barbarian because that class was the first one printed? No, a good idea that gives a solid, balanced mechanical advantage should be copied a dozen times over. Imitation is the highest form of flattery.

Finally, you're already borrowing material wholesale. To try and put your name on it and claim it as yours is silly, that's like making a Fighter fix and claiming no one else can fix the fighter.
The wholesale copying we do has explicitly been granted permission to. WotC made that deal on their own. OGL allows modification and copying.

We did not though, and while we, having based our homebrews on the 3.5 D&D system, are doing Open Source by default, it doesn't mean we can't have reservations on people wholesale copying our stuff without credit. In this case, we have not explicitly given permission to do this, and while there is nothing illegal about said copying, common courtesy dictates you should probably get that permission before copying it.

[Psyborg]

You do NOT get a bunch of HD, there is no basis for that statement at all. You get the same amount as anyone else. The Force Golem has 4, the Nimblewright has 7. That's not a bunch, that's their CR.

Hmm. This is exactly correct; it's completely nonsensical. The HD phrase should be stricken from the record. Sorry, I should have caught that.


Also half the immunities can be duplicated with low level stuff. Not quite. I'm not aware of a way to get permanent immunity to mind-affecting without one of a few very expensive magic items, and that's probably the single most important immunity in the game.


First off I'm pretty sure these classes are supposed to be cross-classable. So setting them up to avoid one-level dips doesn't make any sense.
They're not cross-classable between monster classes, normally, but you don't have to finish the monster class to start taking levels in normal base classes and/or prestige classes. Dipping one level of, say, Monstrous Spider and then going straight into, say, Swordsage is completely possible, so we're trying to avoid having Monstrous Spider 1 / Swordsage 19 be dramatically better than Swordsage 20 or Monstrous Spider 11 / Swordsage 9.
It makes even less sense when you consider the player can get the benefits of the undead type from Necropolitan - and it's better that way, and they can grab a lot of nice construct stuff with warforged - which are also mostly better than basic constructs despite fewer immunities.
Necropolitan loses a level and has to gain it back, and doesn't gain the sort of useful and flavorful abilities that monster classes are filled with, just basic Undead type traits. And Warforged loses 75% crit/SA immunity and (the biggest immunity in the game, remember) immunity to mind-affecting compared to an actual Construct. I don't think Warforged are better than Constructs in any way other than being LA 0.
The last sentence is just silly. It says "We generally aim for undead and constructs to be a little less powerful" but does not specify "after immunities." To a new builder this looks like a license to screw over two types for no reason at all.
Another good point. Adding "after Type traits", "in terms of class features and abilities", or some such language would make the intended meaning clearer. Thanks again for the catch.
Finally, the decision still makes zero sense because that's not how the game works. If you have an intelligence score, you have class skills. It's simple. Just like you get a feat every third level, you get class skills if you're intelligent. There's no good reason to deny the classes that, it just makes them significantly less functional.
As a major baseline standard for dozens of existing classes, a decision on actually changing this policy is probably the council's purview, not mine, but here's my take on it:
--Undead and Construct do have a lot of useful, powerful immunities that can't be duplicated without enormous expense (or Divine Metamagic:Persist, which makes everything easy anyway), and which can make balancing their early levels very difficult.
--They can either be balanced with weaker class features, one or more fundamental disadvantages to offset their immunities, or a combination of the two.
--Currently, they get two fundamental disadvantages (much lower HP, poor Fort saves, and poor Con- and Con-based checks due to no Con score; and no class skills), and generally slightly weaker class features. None of these are individually overwhelming. Removing the no-class-skills limitations would require class features, at the first few levels at least, to be weakened still further, inhibiting the ability of 'brewers to come up with the abilities that make or break a flavorful and unique undead monster class.
--On the other hand, if you leave things how they are but want to make a skill-based undead or construct, then just make one of its level 1 class features, "Cunning: Unlike most (undead|constructs), you have class skills." It'll get considered for balance like any other class feature would be; it'll probably replace something else at level 1; but that's okay because it'll be one of the defining traits of the monster.

In conclusion: Undead and Constructs are always going to be at least somewhat problematic, but I think the current system works.


Open Source.

It's a little frustrating to watch people gank your ideas without asking or crediting you, but I hold to the philosophy that a good idea remains good whether or not the original author gets credit.

Also I personally would want to reuse good ideas I had, so I wouldn't want people telling me to think of something original every time when I was actually quite thrilled with the work I'd already done and enjoy borrowing from my own good foundations.

Believe it or not it's possible for two people to have the exact same idea without any interaction or influence between them. I made a rule for a different game awhile back and later found it duplicated exactly, down to the name and the mechanics. I don't believe the guy stole the idea, I think he just happened to build the same ability and name it the same as I did by pure coincidence. I still did it first, but that doesn't make him a thief, just late to the party.

Furthermore, consistency is good. How many base classes have Uncanny Dodge? Is everyone stealing from the Barbarian because that class was the first one printed? No, a good idea that gives a solid, balanced mechanical advantage should be copied a dozen times over. Imitation is the highest form of flattery.

Finally, you're already borrowing material wholesale. To try and put your name on it and claim it as yours is silly, that's like making a Fighter fix and claiming no one else can fix the fighter.
All granted; I just think that it'd be good manners to ask first, and most people are only going to say "No, you can't use this" if it's something that's really central to the identity of the existing monster. In which case...well, I think we're better off as a project having to come up with something new. No one's going to deny permission to borrow minor abilities, or even most of the big ones that aren't defining traits of an existing monster. It seems more considerate (something I've been becoming rapidly more aware of over the last few days :smallredface:), and it's my opinion that it'll be better for the project in the long run, too.

But that's my take on it. Let the talking heads decide :smalltongue: We're going to keep writing stuff regardless, right? *grin*

As a final note, the casting-progression tables I mentioned the other day are definitely going to have to wait for next week...my weekend got crazy all of a sudden.

Edit: Ugh, swordsaged. More than once, too. Oh well.

[Bloody Initiate]

I absolutely support good manners, and despite my stated philosophies would ask permission before yoinking any ideas. I just get annoyed when people act entitled and petulant over "their" work which is in fact built upon someone else's work. I also recognize the absence of consequences on the internet, so you're better off starting with a forgiving attitude because an unforgiving attitude isn't going to affect anyone but you.

[Lix Lorn]

I don't care about people borrowing anything I come up with, as long as they tell me...

[Benly]

Rather, they have large HD (d12) regardless of role. Poor wording on my part.

But they also have no constitution bonus and no -10 HD buffer. A first-level commoner with 8 Con can take more damage before permadeath than a first-level construct can. The d12 isn't a strength, it's a partial compensation for their biggest weakness.

[Bloody Initiate]

...it's also a d10 for constructs, not a d12...

It was bothering me...

It's a d12 for undead for sure, but I'll happily concede that there is a lot more stuff that targets undead than constructs.

[Hyudra]

But they also have no constitution bonus and no -10 HD buffer. A first-level commoner with 8 Con can take more damage before permadeath than a first-level construct can. The d12 isn't a strength, it's a partial compensation for their biggest weakness.

Right, but even so, if you're a mid level lich, it still stands to be an overall benefit over your standard caster, as far as having a little more HP to fritter away. No, you don't get the standard 'dying' buffer, but your immunities help ensure that you're not going to get surprised by a status effect, crippling poison or nasty crit that drops you faster than you'd expect. So the lack of an HP buffer is already sufficiently compensated for. Further, despite having a steady HP gain per level on par with a wizard with 18 con or a rogue with 16 con (and higher HP at first level: 12 vs. 8 for the wizard example and 9 for the rogue), without needing to invest points/good rolls in constitution, you're free to put points in Dex (+AC, get hit less, act sooner, higher reflex) or Wis (+will saves) with virtually no detriment.

It works out to an overall advantage, barring the earliest levels where that hp buffer is so essential.

[Benly]

It works out to an overall advantage, barring the earliest levels where that hp buffer is so essential.

I still disagree - at higher levels, getting hold of a Con bonus isn't so hard if you want one, and it's an option undead and constructs don't have.

Additionally, many undead and most constructs are melee-type classes, and for them it's a straight disadvantage - almost any melee type is going to have more hit points per level than a construct expected to take the same role, so penalizing them for that "benefit" is a bit unfair. For casters, it is a HP advantage - but casters don't rely so much on having a high HP because they can stay off the front lines, so it's an advantage to something that doesn't advantage them much. The main place where this is a real advantage is for "light melee" classes. If you have a construct or undead that directly competes with the rogue or ninja or factotum or whatnot, trying to counterbalance their higher HP with loss of skill points makes sense. For anyone else, it pretty much amounts to screwing them out of ever seeing prestige classes.

[Bloody Initiate]

For the record, mages aren't as squishy as tropes would suggest.

Wizards can freely dump charisma and strength already, which means they can crank con and have more hitpoints.

Sorcerers can dump strength as well, and they don't have to worry about intelligence much either (I hate dumping intelligence on any character, but some characters can afford it a lot better than others).

Clerics aren't squishy anyway.

Fighter types?

Need strength.

Need Dex (Occasionally they can leave it low)

NEED Con

They actually need Int because they rarely get a workable amount of skill points, and they're more dependent on such things.

They also usually want at least a +1 in wisdom because their will saves suck.


My point is just that the people who gain the most are always casters, and the people who lose the most are always everyone else, and removing the con score is just another example of this.

[TheGeckoKing]

Still, couldn't we just have a rule where Constructs only have about 3-4 skills to pick from that make sense, tops?

I mean, yes Undead/Constructs are pretty cool when it comes down to immunities, but sometimes it just doesn't make sense to me, short of making something silly up on the spot.
Ghouls, yeah. I get that. Mummies, eh, that's pushing it.
However, why would a Lich/Vampire suddenly become dumber?

I mean, normal Constucts gain the bottom 2+Int mod anyway, but intelligent undead normally gain 4+Int mod skill points, and a mid level Wizard could of just gotten the Necropolitan template anyway for a pittance of gold, and gained back the lost level, by the mid levels. It just seems a bit arbitrary.

[Hyudra]

Casters rule, fighters suffer.

Yes, that's common knowledge.


I still disagree - at higher levels, getting hold of a Con bonus isn't so hard if you want one, and it's an option undead and constructs don't have.

Additionally, many undead and most constructs are melee-type classes, and for them it's a straight disadvantage - almost any melee type is going to have more hit points per level than a construct expected to take the same role, so penalizing them for that "benefit" is a bit unfair. For casters, it is a HP advantage - but casters don't rely so much on having a high HP because they can stay off the front lines, so it's an advantage to something that doesn't advantage them much. The main place where this is a real advantage is for "light melee" classes. If you have a construct or undead that directly competes with the rogue or ninja or factotum or whatnot, trying to counterbalance their higher HP with loss of skill points makes sense. For anyone else, it pretty much amounts to screwing them out of ever seeing prestige classes.

Generally speaking, those monster classes based on melee undead or melee constructs do tend to get advantages that compensate for their drawbacks and keep them viable. DR, spell immunities, natural armor, and the like. Again, too, I stress that being able to basically ignore one ability score when distributing your point buy or placing your rolls is a not-insignificant bonus. It makes for higher AC, better saves and/or better stats for class features.

I maintain that d10/d12 HD is not as crushing a drawback as you pose, and can readily be a strong advantage, depending on the class. In any event, the overall package that undead and constructs offer is sufficient to warrant some drawback, and skill points were established as such well over a year ago, in the earlier days of the monster class project. We shouldn't ignore, either, the fact that changing this standard now would involve a huge amount of work. As such, it would need a particularly good and equally simple alternative coupled with solid and myriad arguments both in favor of the new system and against the old.

[TheGeckoKing]

How about a feat, then? Levels in a Monster Class that grants no skill points only, and Something like "Choose one monster class that offers no skills as class skills you qualify for. You may pick a number of skills equal to twice your Int Mod, and consider them your class skills for that class instead of what is offered (nothing)."

It's not very elegant, but it keeps idiots as idiots and skillmonkeys as skillmonkeys.

[Benly]

Again, too, I stress that being able to basically ignore one ability score when distributing your point buy or placing your rolls is a not-insignificant bonus. It makes for higher AC, better saves and/or better stats for class features.

There's a difference between "able to" and "forced to". Also, how does it lead to better saves in general when you are unable to increase your Con and hence your Fort save? Conless creatures are immune to a lot of Fort effects, but the ones that get through are wreckers.


I maintain that d10/d12 HD is not as crushing a drawback as you pose, and can readily be a strong advantage, depending on the class.

I never said that a high HD was a drawback. I said that it was a partial compensation for the severe drawbacks of a nonexistent Con. I'm sorry if I sound touchy, but it really feels like I'm being strawmanned here.


In any event, the overall package that undead and constructs offer is sufficient to warrant some drawback, and skill points were established as such well over a year ago, in the earlier days of the monster class project. We shouldn't ignore, either, the fact that changing this standard now would involve a huge amount of work. As such, it would need a particularly good and equally simple alternative coupled with solid and myriad arguments both in favor of the new system and against the old.

Didn't this thread recently decide that "because the earliest days of the project did it this way" wasn't a strong enough justification for keeping problematic things around, and that the earliest days had some serious problems?
The problem is that "has no class skills for the duration of the class" doesn't just mean you're paying twice as much for skills - it means you can't keep up maximum skill ranks remotely appropriate to your level, which not only means you might as well not be making skill checks but also means you won't be able to qualify for any feats or PrCs with skill requirements, even entirely appropriate ones, until long after the levels they're designed to be useful at.
"No class skills at all" is a disadvantage that should be used for classes where it's actually appropriate. For most undead and constructs, it would make more sense to simply ask monster class designers to use their judgment as they do with everything else and compensate appropriately for the powerful immunities.

[Hyudra]

I think it would be better simply to design the undead in question in such a way that they gained scaling racial bonuses to the appropriate skills rather than actual skill ranks. Such will let them catch up as appropriate, in terms of raw effect.

A feat as you outline it would be both a waste of a feat for short classes and would lead to abuses such as players picking up UMD, Iajitsu Focus or Autohypnosis. Otherwise less accessible skills with very concrete gameplay benefits.

[Benly]

I think it would be better simply to design the undead in question in such a way that they gained scaling racial bonuses to the appropriate skills rather than actual skill ranks. Such will let them catch up as appropriate, in terms of raw effect.

It won't let them reach qualifications. I'm not sure why a shadow should have to multiclass before it can qualify as an Assassin, for example.


A feat as you outline it would be both a waste of a feat for short classes and would lead to abuses such as players picking up UMD, Iajitsu Focus or Autohypnosis. Otherwise less accessible skills with very concrete gameplay benefits.

Agreed. Letting a class select its own class skills is a powerful feature.

[Hyudra]

There's a difference between "able to" and "forced to". Also, how does it lead to better saves in general when you are unable to increase your Con and hence your Fort save? Conless creatures are immune to a lot of Fort effects, but the ones that get through are wreckers.

Such as disintegrate, yes. But the overall benefits of the type (and even of just being conless on its own) nonetheless tend to outweigh the drawbacks. Having a niche weakness against a relatively small selection of effects is something a PC can deal with, by way of magic items, spells, buffs tactics and other preparations. A PC with low fort saves can shore up that weakness in a way that undead you tend to encounter can't.


I never said that a high HD was a drawback. I said that it was a partial compensation for the severe drawbacks of a nonexistent Con. I'm sorry if I sound touchy, but it really feels like I'm being strawmanned here.

I apologize that I came across that way. I'll rephrase that: "I maintain that having no constitution score with d10/d12 HD and the myriad other compensations is not as crushing a drawback as you pose, and can readily be a strong advantage, depending on the class."


Didn't this thread recently decide that "because the earliest days of the project did it this way" wasn't a strong enough justification for keeping problematic things around, and that the earliest days had some serious problems?

The problem is that "has no class skills for the duration of the class" doesn't just mean you're paying twice as much for skills - it means you can't keep up maximum skill ranks remotely appropriate to your level, which not only means you might as well not be making skill checks but also means you won't be able to qualify for any feats or PrCs with skill requirements, even entirely appropriate ones, until long after the levels they're designed to be useful at.
"No class skills at all" is a disadvantage that should be used for classes where it's actually appropriate. For most undead and constructs, it would make more sense to simply ask monster class designers to use their judgment as they do with everything else and compensate appropriately for the powerful immunities.

The thing is, the immunities we're talking about aren't just powerful. They're game changing. Worse, they're unavoidable, because they're such an integral part of the creature type. A PC with undead or construct type doesn't simply warrant a "Tone down the abilities some". Such a PC is capable of walking through a full third of the encounters in the various monster manuals & other splatbooks, due to an immunity to most/many things that can make the encounter threatening. Harpies don't captivate you, carrion crawlers don't paralyze you, shadows can't affect you at all, wyverns don't deal poison damage, mummy rot doesn't leave you limping for a temple, razor boars can't crit you, you don't risk drowning when a kraken pulls you underwater... The list goes on.

There has to be a meaningful drawback to this. The occasional inconveniences of having no con score are vastly outweighed by a built in resistance to, essentially "most things that screw over PCs". Not getting skills known is meaningful enough to matter, and simple to implement.

[Psyborg]

So let them treat a skill in which they have maximum ranks as having ranks equal to their level + 3 for purposes of qualifying for feats and prestige classes? Perhaps any such skills, perhaps limit it to a number equal to their Intelligence modifier?

That's the only idea I've had so far.

[Benly]

There has to be a meaningful drawback to this. The occasional inconveniences of having no con score are vastly outweighed by a built in resistance to, essentially "most things that screw over PCs". Not getting skills known is meaningful enough to matter, and simple to implement.

I am really not a big fan of "screwing people out of qualifications" as a compensating factor. The thing is, reducing your maximum skill ranks has very little immediate effect on many characters in terms of gameplay in the field (there's only a few skill checks that fighters or wizards bother to make on a regular basis) but can be absolutely crippling in terms of character building. It's a "balance" in the sense that you lose fun advancement options rather than actually having your advantage compensated for.

Edit:


So let them treat a skill in which they have maximum ranks as having ranks equal to their level + 3 for purposes of qualifying for feats and prestige classes? Perhaps any such skills, perhaps limit it to a number equal to their Intelligence modifier?

That's the only idea I've had so far.

That would go some way towards mitigating the problem for me. It might be excessively complex, or it might not.

[Gorgondantess]

I agree with Bloody Initiate on one respect, which is that not only the high HD isn't an advantage... but it does, in fact, more damage than good.
Let's look at your average wizard. At 32 pt buy, you'll likely grab 18 intelligence, 14 dexterity, and 16 constitution, dropping wisdom, strength and charisma entirely. You average, with your d4 HD, 5.5 hp per HD. An undead averages 6.5 hp per HD. NOT much of a difference. And yes, this discounts the possibility of a grey elf wizard, but it also discounts the possibility of a whisper gnome/gnome/dwarf/warforged wizard, which are all equally excellent choices.
Then the wizard gets a +2 con item. He's right up there with the undead. A +4 con item, and he's averaging +1 hp per HD over the undead.
Don't even get me started on constructs. Why do you think I gave them the HP bonuses to begin with?
Anyways, is it really such a problem? Only the older ones are really gimped at all: I don't think anyone could say an iron golem isn't going to be able to hold its own in the midst of a tier 3 group.


I did tell you to crop that if you used it. Here:
http://i56.tinypic.com/25kmmqd.jpg
A cropped version of your half dragon pic.
Riiiiight. Shall change.

On the metabreath stuff/yoinking it for dragons: That is totally cool. I mean, if this were something else, not so much... but it only makes sense that a full dragon would get everything a half dragon would. Hell, expand on the idea!
On the idea in general: My stance is, while there are exceptions (see the paragraph above this one), normally don't do it, and ask if you think there's an exception like that one. Otherwise, if you like an ability: take from the best, and make it your own. Go ahead and draw inspiration. And even if you're doing that, probably a good idea to ask the original maker and run your revision by them.


So... you can't take levels in half dragon until level two? When you suddenly grow scales and wings?
No, you be a sorcerer at level 1 with scales and wings that are just fluff and don't get to utilize them until 2nd level. It's like monsters that don't get flight until a certain HD, but have wings: they just can't utilize them yet.

Also, I kinda thought we were trying to make dragons less uber-gishy?
Less powerful, not less gishy.

...also, no love for vampirific dragons? :P
Sorcerer 1/Half-Dragon 2/Vampire 2 is perfectly viable. You just can't be an undead and then be a half-dragon.

As well, I'd ask for a little more leeway in breath weapons. For example, 'If the parent dragon has a breath weapon not entirely composed of one of these energy types, it deals the same type as the parent dragon, at 1d6/HD'
Emmm... wut? I'm pretty sure that I've pretty much covered it. 'Sides, there's probably something silly out there like ability score damage.:smalleek:

And, aren't Breath Weapons always worked out with Con modifiers?
Rules exist to be broken. *shrug*

To be completely honest, I thought the first Half Dragon was pretty fair...
*spits out coffee all over the monitor*
Em... no, the original half-dragon was abysmal.:smalleek:

...and isn't Half Dragon +3 LA?
+2 CR. We base things off of CR here, not LA.

Three natural attacks at first level? Granted, they aren't all that good natural attacks, but it is still a lot better than the RotD kobold, which may not be a good thing.
Three natural attacks at 2nd level. Not too bad.

Random bonus spells? Taken off the Dragon Disciple? I'm not sure how necessary these are, especially given my (and other people's) responses to the gishiness of this template at the moment.
I think only Lix has complained about the gishiness... and what's wrong with gishiness?
Anyways, I went into this originally intending to have it burning a lot of spells/day with form of the dragon (see comments), so the bonus spells are a throwback to that. I'm essentially just keeping it there until I get commentary on that.
On casting: you're 50% of a monster that, by adulthood, is more powerful than most human sorcerers. I find it absurd that a half dragon wouldn't have at least some minor spellcasting ability.

[Hyudra]

So let them treat a skill in which they have maximum ranks as having ranks equal to their level + 3 for purposes of qualifying for feats and prestige classes? Perhaps any such skills, perhaps limit it to a number equal to their Intelligence modifier?

That's the only idea I've had so far.

I can see that working. However, I'm not entirely sold that it, as given, would fix enough things to warrant the amount of work it would take to make the change for every undead and construct that has already been posted.

I mean (and I'm directing this more at Benly than at you, Psyborg, but bear with me), making a change to the way skills known work for undead & constructs would involve making changes to some 25 or more monsters (just going by what I recognize by name as being undead/construct) on the finished list(s). As most of them were written up by people who are no longer posting, we would need to repost those monsters with the changes made. Those reposts would make for a hellacious amount of clutter. All of this would need to be coordinated, with reposts being noted properly on the front page. Enough of those monsters warrant significant enough fixes to mean that they might wind up tacked onto the unfinished list, bloating it further. Finally, the new change would need to be outlined, established and clarified both prior to this undertaking and afterwards, to ensure that those making the changes & those new to the thread understand it and are stating it properly.

So I would really, really want some unanimous desire to undertake a sweeping change to one of the core principles at work. As is, what we have works. It's sometimes inconvenient, sure, but being undead/construct is oftentimes very convenient too. My inclination is that it more or less balances out.

[Benly]

I am rather opposed as a design principle to "you get advantages on the field, and pay for it by being denied the option to build creatively". It really bothers me that a shadow has to multiclass to become an Assassin, or that a brain-in-a-jar has to dip if it wants to qualify for a scholar prestige class, just because it makes no damned sense and serves only as a restriction on making interesting builds without actually affecting the character's power.

I understand the issue with going back and changing all existing classes, though. What about posting Psyborg's suggested patch as a recommended rule for no-skill classes under the General FAQ For How To Use These Classes?

[NineThePuma]

*spits out coffee all over the monitor*
Em... no, the original half-dragon was abysmal.:smalleek:

That's your opinion.

I'd rather take 3 LA than your class. The only exception is if I'm playing a Bard, where those bonus spells might be useful, and a higher str isn't just a waste.

[Bloody Initiate]

I don't actually see how it's that much work, because I didn't recommend changing every single construct or undead in existence. I recommended removing "no class skills" from the guidelines so new work doesn't get screwed.

Here's the thing: Some of these classes are better than others. Some are worse.

So what's the big deal if the old impossible-to-edit stuff doesn't have class skills? You guys were happy with it then, why worry about it now?

However the new stuff doesn't have to make the same mistake.

The other reason I advocate allowing the class skills is simple: That's the way the game works. The more your homebrew fits the existing game the better it feels for people who might use it.

Creatures that had an intelligence score in their original entry already have class skills, they're just not in these monster classes. You don't even have to worry about homebrewer discretion, it's a matter of plugging stuff in:

Take class skills from monsters entry (Easiest just to make all the skills the creature has ranks in into class skills).
Add Craft and Profession because all playable base classes have those two.

The amount of skill points per level are determined by the creature's type, you can memorize this in a few minutes if you want. Even if you don't want to memorize it, it's not like the information is hard to access (Hint: it's in the back of the Monster Manual.)

The "discretion" comes in when you:
...add new skills other than Craft and Profession
...add skill points per level
...reduce skill points per level

You can get really precise and add up the monster's skills so that you know which ones are class skills and cross-class skills (You be surprised by the amount of monsters that spend points for cross-class skills).

The point is that it's easy, it improves the classes, it's legit, and it feels more legit.

[Benly]

As far as the Half-Dragon goes, I have one major concern with it: one of the major iconic roles of the half-dragon (in published material and thus ideally in play) is the "brute" half-dragon, a half-dragon ogre, lizardman, or even just human barbarian who either rules his tribe with his superior physical prowess or acts as a miniboss/guardian for his draconic progenitor. I seem to recall a few spots where half-black-dragon lizardmen barbarian are used in the latter roles, and a half-red-dragon ogre. (And, now that I think of it, Enor in Order Of The Stick.)

The spellcasting requirement forbids a "brute" half-dragon, and that severely limits it in my eyes. Maybe an alternate requirement (and an alternative to Breath Channeling) for brute types?

[Gorgondantess]

That's your opinion.

I'd rather take 3 LA than your class. The only exception is if I'm playing a Bard, where those bonus spells might be useful, and a higher str isn't just a waste.

...
Why?
The only thing the original half-dragon is getting over my class is some ability score bonuses and likely some natural armor, though mine scales better.

[NineThePuma]

Also on that note:

Why in the Nine Hells would you deny class skills to classes that get them, then GIVE class skills to classes that DON'T?

[Hyudra]

Also on that note:

Why in the Nine Hells would you deny class skills to classes that get them, then GIVE class skills to classes that DON'T?

We've already covered the essential points as to why. It doesn't bear retreading. It's been in effect for well over a year and has been discussed to death several times over.

If it bugs you, rather than attack the system, propose a sound alternative. The only reason it hasn't changed, to date, is that nobody has provided a well founded & applicable change that garnered sufficient support, to the point that it was worth the effort it would take to implement. If you don't like the pre-existing system, then strive to change it. I won't stand in your way, but I'll definitely want to ensure it doesn't have the same number of/more flaws than the system it would replace.

I'm asking that people please drop the subject and turn their attention to the monsters, unless they're ready to add something new to the discussion.

[Lord_Gareth]

...
Why?
The only thing the original half-dragon is getting over my class is some ability score bonuses and likely some natural armor, though mine scales better.

I actually have to be with Nine re: the spellcasting focus: I don't like it. Dragons are big, powerful, ferocious creatures, and the spells are not an essential part of their concept. Half-Dragons were never really associated much with spells in the base template, and I feel that the Half-Dragon template should support martial characters as well.

[Gorgondantess]

We've already covered the essential points as to why. It doesn't bear retreading. It's been in effect for well over a year and has been discussed to death several times over.

If it bugs you, rather than attack the system, propose a sound alternative. The only reason it hasn't changed, to date, is that nobody has provided a well founded & applicable change that garnered sufficient support. If you don't like it, then strive for this. I won't stand in your way, but I'll definitely want to ensure it doesn't have the same number of/more flaws than the system it would replace.

I'm asking that people please drop the subject and turn their attention to the monsters, unless they're ready to add something new to the discussion.

I wholeheartedly agree. If you want something to change, rather than arguing about it why don't you start revising some of the older undead & constructs? I'd be partial towards seeing what they look like with nonstandard BAB/Saves/skills.
EDIT:

I actually have to be with Nine re: the spellcasting focus: I don't like it. Dragons are big, powerful, ferocious creatures, and the spells are not an essential part of their concept. Half-Dragons were never really associated much with spells in the base template, and I feel that the Half-Dragon template should support martial characters as well.
Since when did gish=/=martial? A few levels of duskblade is a nice dip for any martial concept.

[Benly]

If it bugs you, rather than attack the system, propose a sound alternative. The only reason it hasn't changed, to date, is that nobody has provided a well founded & applicable change that garnered sufficient support, to the point that it was worth the effort it would take to implement. If you don't like the pre-existing system, then strive to change it. I won't stand in your way, but I'll definitely want to ensure it doesn't have the same number of/more flaws than the system it would replace.

I'm asking that people please drop the subject and turn their attention to the monsters, unless they're ready to add something new to the discussion.

Just for clarification: Does "put Psyborg's suggestion into the How To Use These Monster Classes" qualify as a "sound alternative"?

[Bloody Initiate]

Also on that note:

Why in the Nine Hells would you deny class skills to classes that get them, then GIVE class skills to classes that DON'T?

The only classes that wouldn't have class skills would be monsters who did not originally have an intelligence score.

That's why in my first post I said something like "The only time this [no class skills] makes sense is for creatures of the 'Awakened' variety" because "Awakened" is the tag applied to previously brain dead creatures who got an intelligence score because someone wanted to play them.

Thankfully and/or unfortunately the same monsters that had no intelligence scores tend to use very few skills if any. I can't picture an Iron Golem jumping, tumbling, trying to hide, or trying to trick someone.

"Thankfully" that makes "no class skills" feel better.

"Unfortunately" that means someone who wants to give it class skills might be short of inspiration.

[Lord_Gareth]

Since when did gish=/=martial? A few levels of duskblade is a nice dip for any martial concept.

And if we don't wanna cast spells? Do half-Green dragons not take Barbarian levels? Can I not have a Half-Gold fighter? Must my Emerald hybrid give up his dreams of mastering his Warblade levels?

[NineThePuma]

Most of the benefits that you offer that aren't tied into spell casting are actually already available, and are BETTER in the other form. For example, your reusable breath weapon? Costs a normal half dragon a feat, but it's 1d4 rounds, and they get their massive 6d8 damage weapon still.

Plus, this class does absolutely nothing for Duskblades. Sure, they get some nifty stuff inherent in the template, but I'd still rather take the template itself.

[Hyudra]

Just for clarification: Does "put Psyborg's suggestion into the How To Use These Monster Classes" qualify as a "sound alternative"?

It would need to be hammered out, and wouldn't change the fact that many/most of the 25ish undead/constructs on the list would want something revisionwise to bring them more in line with any new standard outlined in the guide.

[Frog Dragon]

Since when did gish=/=martial? A few levels of duskblade is a nice dip for any martial concept.
There are still dragons that get no casting progression at all (Battle dragon, off the top of my head). As is, the half dragon makes you a magical character, period. If you're a half-dragon, you're a magic user. I don't think it is necessary. It should stay as an option, but it reeks of a shoehorn to me.

[Benly]

It would need to be hammered out, and wouldn't change the fact that many/most of the 25ish undead/constructs on the list would want something revisionwise to bring them more in line with any new standard.

Okay. I'm not sure why they would need to be revised if all that's changed is that they now qualify for prestige classes when they're done with the monster class, but okay.

Sorry if I'm coming off as snippish or aggressive here, it's just "any suggestion would need to muster a lot of support from people in this thread, now everyone please stop discussing it" seems like it sort of shuts down the possibility of getting ideas that get support. Then again, I can't complain about putting focus on new monster discussion when only one person's noticed my monster so far. :smallwink: (Not a "LOOK AT ME LOOK AT ME" complaint really, just a joke.)

[Gorgondantess]

And if we don't wanna cast spells? Do half-Green dragons not take Barbarian levels? Can I not have a Half-Gold fighter? Must my Emerald hybrid give up his dreams of mastering his Warblade levels?
Who ever said a 1-level dip in in a spellcasting class means you can't take warblade or fighter or barbarian? Beyond that, a half-gold dragon makes FAR more sense as a gish than as a straight fighter.


Most of the benefits that you offer that aren't tied into spell casting are actually already available, and are BETTER in the other form. For example, your reusable breath weapon? Costs a normal half dragon a feat, but it's 1d4 rounds, and they get their massive 6d8 damage weapon still.
...And you'll be doing MORE damage than that at high levels.
And I'm still not seeing how that makes it worth +3 LA.

[NineThePuma]

A poorly done shoe horn that's... *shrugs*

Look, man, you've got a class that is very generic and trying to fit all the various versions of the half dragon into it, but you've got no real sexy in it. There is NO reason I should take that class. It offers + Str and + Cha, and the only good Gishes that I can think of use Int.

[Lord_Gareth]

Gorgon, the short of it is that I don't feel that half-dragons should require spellcasting. It annoys the hell out of me. Additionally, it punishes (flavorfully) martial concepts that want to try a half-breed. I don't want to dip a level of sorcerer or wizard, I wanna play a friggin' Warblade.

[Bloody Initiate]

If it irritates so many people that dragons like magic, why not trade it for something like:

Dragons are good at stuff: At 2nd level the half-dragon gains one of the following:
-A meldshaping level...
-A level of casting progression...
-A level of manifesting...
-A level of stances and maneuvers...
-A level of soulbinding...
-A bonus feat
...as one of the classes it possessed before entering this PrC. It does not gain any of the other class features of those classes, such as bonus metamagic feats or chakra binds.

Although really, like it or not, dragons in D&D like them some magic.

EDIT: By the way you can just edit the above into your own version of the thing.

[Gorgondantess]

A poorly done shoe horn that's... *shrugs*

Look, man, you've got a class that is very generic and trying to fit all the various versions of the half dragon into it, but you've got no real sexy in it.
How is using your glitterdust to deliver breath weapon damage not sexy? How is breathing out a hold person spell in a cone of paralytic gas not sexy?


I actually have to be with Nine re: the spellcasting focus: I don't like it. Dragons are big, powerful, ferocious creatures, and the spells are not an essential part of their concept. Half-Dragons were never really associated much with spells in the base template, and I feel that the Half-Dragon template should support martial characters as well.
Then play a warblade, not a hybrid of an extremely magical creature.

[Frog Dragon]

Although really, like it or not, dragons in D&D like them some magic.
Enor disagrees. I agree with the rest of that though.

[Bloody Initiate]

Enor disagrees. I agree with the rest of that though.

I don't know what Enor is, but last I checked there are three kinds of dragon:
Casters
Xorvintaal (Gave up casting)
Non-casting non-Xorvintaal but-doesn't-have-anything-quite-as-powerful-as-casting, probably-just-a-mildly-unique-breath-weapon-and-Su-ability.

Also I was attempting to tease a little. It's one caster level, you can easily sub it for any of the stuff I posted without requiring that flexibility in the posted class.

[Frog Dragon]

I don't know what Enor is, but last I checked there are three kinds of dragon:
Casters
Xorvintaal (Gave up casting)
Non-casting non-Xorvintaal but-doesn't-have-anything-quite-as-powerful-as-casting, probably-just-a-mildly-unique-breath-weapon-and-Su-ability.
Enor is the half blue dragon ogre that has been a secondary character in the latest OotS arc. He is very much a brute, who doesn't use a bit of magic.

[Gorgondantess]

The fact of the matter is, the way the class works is it uses its spells to charge its abilities, as I'm still not finished with the form of the dragon stuff. If it doesn't have spells, it loses those things. If it loses those things, it's just a prettier version of oslecamo's half-dragon. You'd rather use the LA? I'm not stopping you. But the fact of the matter is, all my ideas are contingent on having spellcasting. Take that, and it's got nothing to stand on.
In other words: spellcasting or bust.

[NineThePuma]

It's got ONE schtick for broken classes don't need any help. That makes those classes even more broken.

Half of its abilities either go against the norm of the topic in general (I'm looking at you, NA equal to Cha), or are useless to a full caster (+2 Str is useless on a caster, unless you're going Gish, and then Cha is useless on it.).

Replace the boosted Str with Con, and make the NA tie to it. Or remove the entire spellcasting schtick (which the Half Dragon didn't have to begin with) and figure something else out.

[Bloody Initiate]

It's got ONE schtick for broken classes don't need any help. That makes those classes even more broken.


Actually it costs them a caster level. That's something they avoid. It's much more likely to be used by someone who isn't a full caster and IS more of a gish.

[Gorgondantess]

Okay... well, as I said, spellcasting or bust.
Bust it is, then, due to overwhelming support.

[NineThePuma]

One CL won't do much, the two floating bonus spells make up for it. Plus, a coned version of a usually single target save or die game-breaker?

[Volthawk]

Well, you could go Dragon Devotee style. That gives a level of casting if you don't have it.

[Gorgondantess]

Well, you could go Dragon Devotee style. That gives a level of casting if you don't have it.

That was actually my original idea, but it seems the argument here isn't against requiring a spellcasting level but spellcasting, period.

[NineThePuma]

Remember: Dragons shouldn't need to be fscking casters. The problem with normal dragons in D&D is that they end up being "Casters who happen to be dragons" rather than "Dragons who happen to be able to cast spells"

By forcing the Half Dragon into a similar role (Caster that happens to be a half dragon) you are reinforcing that. And at this point, I believe that we're TRYING to move away from that. =\

[Benly]

Okay... well, as I said, spellcasting or bust.
Bust it is, then, due to overwhelming support.

Look, you put it up for feedback, people said "there is an archetype of the original monster that this doesn't support". Can you seriously not think of any way to make this class work without throwing in mandatory spellcasting?

[Lord_Gareth]

That was actually my original idea, but it seems the argument here isn't against requiring a spellcasting level but spellcasting, period.

Adding an option for spellcasters I'm cool with. Requiring the ability to cast spells is needlessly narrowing the concept.

[NineThePuma]

Adding an option for spellcasters I'm cool with. Requiring the ability to cast spells is needlessly narrowing the concept.

He said it better than I could.

[Bloody Initiate]

I think Arcane Channeling via breath weapon sounded pretty cool. I can understand the preference that it not require spellcasting to enter the PrC, but that's easy to amend, you just add a sentence like "if you didn't previously possess spell casting ability you gain spellcasting as a first level sorcerer. Sadly, you ate your familiar."

[Frog Dragon]

Even if you did that, half-dragon would automatically make you a magician of some sort. I just plain don't like this.

[Benly]

Maybe give an option to choose between advancing current spellcasting and gaining a set of scaling SLAs?

[Gorgondantess]

There's a very good reason I removed the Half-Dragon. I'd like you all to respect that.

[NineThePuma]

And I'm gonna work on Quasigod.

SLAs still go against the feel of being a brute. Plus, you know, not all dragons are arcane. Some are psionic.

[Bloody Initiate]

Even if you did that, half-dragon would automatically make you a magician of some sort. I just plain don't like this.

To smooth the fluff:

Enor is a moron. He doesn't have the intelligence or the charisma to gain 1st level spells. If he gained the necessary mental capacity, he'd have casting ability. Since he looks like the non-dragon half is something big and dumb, that explains why the draconic bonuses didn't push him up to 11 in any mental stats.

Being a half-dragon does automatically make you a magician of some sort. One of your parents tapped a dragon, you didn't have a choice in the matter, so you don't even technically have a choice about what kind of half-dragon you are.

There are other types of dragons, but Xorvintaal is a choice dragons make and non-Xtaal non-caster dragons aren't typically dragon-like dragons, they're often just creatures with the dragon type. When they are dragon-like dragons, it's kinda niche rather than the norm.

I understand your preference, but you're saying "Why's the Barbarian mad all the time?" It's a personal beef you have with the dragons WotC presented, and it's kinda unrelated to the potential monster PrC.

EDIT: Didn't see Gorgon's post til I completed mine, I'll drop the subject.

[Gorgondantess]

There's a very good reason I removed the Half-Dragon. I'd like you all to respect that.

Allow me to reiterate:
This is a thread to discuss monster classes. Do you see a half-dragon monster class here that requires spellcasting? Because I don't. If you'd like to discuss these things, feel free to start a new thread.
EDIT: I'm not trying to be a jerk about it: I have taken your suggestions into account, and am currently in the process of giving the half dragon a total overhaul. So, rather than beating that dead horse, why don't y'all try critiquing another monster class? Or, better yet, make your own? You all seem so invested in this thread, it's a pity you're not contributing.

[NineThePuma]

Just because you deleted it doesn't mean we can't discuss it. If you're not going to do it, I can pound out a 2 level class in less than an hour.

What do you guys imagine when someone says "Half-Dragon"?

[Gorgondantess]

Just because you deleted it doesn't mean we can't discuss it. If you're not going to do it, I can pound out a 2 level class in less than an hour.

What do you guys imagine when someone says "Half-Dragon"?

Note the edit. Though, if you want to give a shot at it, go ahead.

[NineThePuma]

:smallamused: You edited AFTER my post. I'm currently throwing something together, give me about half an hour.

In the mean time, what do you people imagine when I say "half dragon"?

[Benly]

You all seem so invested in this thread, it's a pity you're not contributing.

I am contributing (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10480332&postcount=1004)! I'm a helper! I just also want to be a helper for other people making other classes. I actually have two other classes lurking around in my brain, but I'd rather not formalize them until I have some feedback on the coure.

I'm glad you're revising the half-dragon. I do like the idea that a half-dragon can be a good spellcaster, I just didn't like the idea that it has to be a spellcaster. As I said, there's a whole archetype of half-dragons that doesn't play well with mandatory spellcasting.

[Bloody Initiate]

Arcane Channeling with a breath weapon is cool. I think most of the time you actually lose out on how much area you're affecting, but it likely saves you on action economy.

[Mystic Muse]

You all seem so invested in this thread, it's a pity you're not contributing.

I would, but Hyudra asked me to remove the Silver Dragon until the Xorvintaal and Black dragon are made, and I agree with her. I want to see how those are done first before releasing another dragon with the same problems as before.

[Hyudra]

In the mean time, what do you people imagine when I say "half dragon"?

It varies so much from setting to setting, instance to instance, that one cannot define it succinctly.

Half dragons are a people born of two radically different species. Given that genetics for even two members of the same species can result in a wide range of appearances and characteristics for children, it is easy to assume the same for the half dragon. One might be a dragon in most characteristics, smaller in size and humanoid in frame, with diluted dragon characteristics. Another might be little more than a human with scales. One might be majestic (many/most cases in D&D), another might be horrifying to look at (Rain Wilds traders). There is no guarantee a half dragon will be beautiful. Similarly, there is no guarantee the child will inherit the majesty of the parent.

In general terms, the Half Dragon has a predominance of hard scales, either smaller, softer scales over the entirety of his or her body, or larger and harder scales over a smaller portion. The effect is the same - they are tough. Their personality is liable to reflect their draconic parent, as a dragon's personality is (see inspiring presence) overwhelming and overbearing, whatever it may be. Most will have claws. The lucky ones can breathe fire. The luckier can fly. Should the half dragon command respect, he or she will have a way of commanding much of it. Arcane workings are, if the sorcerer backgrounds are any indication, far easier for one of draconic heritage.

[NineThePuma]

Quick question.

These monster classes count as racial hit dice, right?

[Kobold-Bard]

Quick question.

These monster classes count as racial hit dice, right?

No, they count as hit dice. Since they're classes.

I thought anyway. Why?

[Gorgondantess]

No, they count as hit dice. Since they're classes.

Pretty much, yeah. When it comes to monster classes, the term "racial hit dice" doesn't exist.

[NineThePuma]

Well, that makes certain aspects of the half dragon both more useful and at the same time, less flavorful. Ah well.

[Bloody Initiate]

If I were doing it and I felt like I had the room in the class, I might make a wide selection of potential dragons to make your parent dragon. The weaker abilities (Force Breath Weapon > Fire Breath Weapon) would come with the dragon type while the powerful ones (See Force Breath) would take the lesser type (Whatever your other parent was, usually humanoid probably).

Since it's a PrC you can grab the Dragon Disciple's "Any non-dragon" prereq. I always liked that pre-req.

EDIT: < Not nominating myself to do the class, just stating what came to mind when racial hit dice were mentioned.

Too bad it's frowned upon to grab the d12, 6 skill points, and perfect saves.

[NineThePuma]

-Formally Withdrawn-

[Gorgondantess]

Okay. So... Your Half Dragon... it's a little... bland? I mean, pretty much all of its abilities are passive. The only one that is active is the breath weapon... which, I'll note, is pretty much just as powerful as a full dragon's breath weapon. Eh?
Anyways... would you mind if I just put up my revision? I mean, I was almost done with it anyways. If not, 'scool, I was the one who offered for you to take over the class to begin with.

[Benly]

Well, I just had a bit of an embarrassment. The other night I had some thoughts about doing Feral Creature, typed it up, and I just now gotten it about ready to post. I went googling for the appropriate image, and... found the existing monster class. Whoops! Somehow I missed it when I was going through the list.

Is it incredibly bad etiquette to post my version? Should I let sleeping dogs lie? Does anyone care?

[Gorgondantess]

Well, I just had a bit of an embarrassment. The other night I had some thoughts about doing Feral Creature, typed it up, and I just now gotten it about ready to post. I went googling for the appropriate image, and... found the existing monster class. Whoops! Somehow I missed it when I was going through the list.

Is it incredibly bad etiquette to post my version? Should I let sleeping dogs lie? Does anyone care?

Ask Niezck. Perhaps you could collaborate on a new and improved version?

[NineThePuma]

Of course not. ^^ While it's on a first come first serve basis, that's like saying we can't take a whole bunch of soul knife fixes and take the best abilities of them all and make one super soul knife that everyone loves.

Also, Yeah, it's passive, because it's a TEMPLATE class. Theoretically, you're applying it to something else that's active. Honestly, dragons themselves aren't really that active. But I suppose it falls into the same pit as the usual 2 level classes. There's really not a lot of space to build on.

[Benly]

Well, I sent off a message. I mean, I'm aware I could just go "ARHARHAR LICK A GOBLIN MATES I'M GONNA POST IT ANYWAY" but I'd rather not be rude. It's just a dang D&D thing.

Edit: The response was "Go ahead, I don't mind seeing an alternative posted rather than a replacement." So.. I'mma postin'.

[Hyudra]

Centaur
http://i51.tinypic.com/o59k49.jpg
Monster Class
Monster Manual/SRD

Class:
HD: D8

{table=head]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|
Special

1st|
+0|
+2|
+2|
+0|Centaur Body, Hinterlands Courser, Wilds Skirmisher, +1 Str

2nd|
+1|
+3|
+3|
+0| Hinterlands Survivor, Wilds Hunter, +5' base movement, +1 Str, +1 Dex

3rd|
+2|
+3|
+3|
+1|Growth, Wilds Reaver, +5' base movement, +1 Str, +1 Con[/table]

Skills Points: (6+Intelligence Modifier), x4 at ECL 1.
Class Skills: The Centaur’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Balance (Dex), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Handle Animal (Cha), Heal (Wis), Hide (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (Nature, Int), Listen (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Spot (Wis), Survival (Wis), Swim (Str), Use Rope (Dex).

Proficiencies: The Centaur is proficient in the use of simple weapons, the longsword and the longbow. It is not proficient in armor or shields.

Centaur Body: The Centaur loses all other racial bonuses and gains Monstrous Humanoid traits, granting it Darkvision out to 60'. The Centaur is initially a Medium sized creature with a base movement speed of 40'. He gains +5' of movement with every level in the class after the first, up to 50' base movement speed at 3rd level. The Centaur is is a four legged creature that possesses a Hoof attack as a primary natural weapon that deals 1d4 + ½ Str mod damage. He has natural armor equal to his Con mod. The Centaur speaks Common and either Sylvan or Elven as starting languages, with additional languages for a high intelligence score as normal.

Attribute Bonus: The Centaur gains +1 to Str with every level in the class, +1 to Dex at 2nd level and +1 to Con at 3rd level for a total bonus of +3 Str, +1 Dex and +1 Con at 3rd level.

Hinterlands Courser (Ex): The first level Centaur is an able traveler of the most dangerous and hazardous landscapes. Born to a landscape of thick woodlands, brush, rocky outcroppings, ice or ruins, the Centaur can ignore the effects of difficult and dangerous terrain when he is moving normally (however, he may not run or charge across such without issue). If the Centaur begins or ends his turn on difficult or dangerous terrain, the effects of that terrain apply as normal. Hinterlands Courser only applies to nonmagical terrain features, but in the event that the Centaur acquires Woodland Stride from a feat or levels in another class, Hinterlands Courser is augmented to include magical terrain effects that would impede him (such as an Entangle spell). Obstructions that would bar the Centaur's movement entirely, such as a wall of stone, operate as normal.

Wilds Skirmisher (Ex): The first level Centaur is a skilled hunter within his territory, capable of traversing the landscape with great ease and striking with surprising force. The Centaur counts himself as both a mounted combatant and a mount at any time that such would be beneficial, namely for the purposes of feats, class features, items, magic items and spells that could affect a mounted rider or a steed. The Centaur is treated as having the maximum allowed ranks in Ride for his effective character level at all times for the purposes of qualifying for feats or prestige classes.

The Centaur adds Tromp and Trample to the list of abilities he can employ in combat:

Tromp and Trample: The Centaur advances, rearing up with his hooves to strike at a foe, forcing them down and crushing them under his hooves as he leaps into their space, kicking and stamping at them as he shoves past. The Centaur may, upon dealing damage with his hooves to a foe of an equal or smaller size relative to his own, expend his 5' step to move over the enemy's space and into the space on the opposite side of the struck opponent. Doing so allows the Centaur to deal hoof damage to that foe a second time with no attack roll needed.

At 4HD, the Centaur that Tromps and Tramples an opponent does not need to utilize a 5' step if his hoof attack was delivered as part of a Seeker's Strike (described in Wilds Hunter, below) or a charge. He moves through/over the enemy as described above.

At 10HD, the Centaur that Tromps and Tramples an opponent can move into any square adjacent to that opponent, rather than just the square on the opposite side of the foe.

At 16HD, a Centaur that Tromps and Tramples a foe forces a Reflex save (DC 10 + ½ HD + Centaur's Str mod or Dex mod, whichever is higher), with the opponent being knocked prone and taking double damage from the second hoof attack if they fail.

Hinterlands Survivor (Ex): Centaurs are warriors of nature, born to thrive as a hunter people in any harsh wilderness. Starting at second level, the Centaur treats any environmental effect (wind, rain, snow, heat and cold) as being one step more forgiving than it is (so severe cold would become cold, cold would be treated as comfortable temperature). This reduction in effect applies to ranged attacks only if the foe falls within one range increment, with any penalty to attack applying as normal thereafter. Hinterlands Survivor applies to any weather effect, regardless of whether the effect is natural, supernatural or magical in nature.

At 7HD, the Centaur is under the effects of a constant, extraordinary Endure Elements effect. This benefit stacks with the Hinterlands Survivor ability, reducing the effect of extreme conditions by one step before determining whether it would fall under the range of permissible temperatures allowed for by Endure Elements.

At 13HD, the Centaur gains resistance to either Fire or Cold damage equal to ½ his HD.

At 19HD, the Centaur acquires whatever resistance he did not gain at 13HD, above.

Wilds Hunter (Ex): Upon reaching 2nd level the Centaur is capable of demonstrating adeptness at bringing down dangerous prey. The Centaur adds Seeker's Strike and Felling Shot to the abilities he may employ in combat:

Seeker's Strike: The Centaur sprints headlong towards a foe, weapon aimed for a vital area as he brings incredible momentum to bear with the strike. Even for those foes who are lucky enough to have their armor take the blow, the effects can be terrible. Treat this attack as a charge in all respects and requirements, except for the following: The Centaur must move at least 20', he gains no bonus to hit and takes no penalty to AC. This does not count as a charge for the purposes of gaining bonuses from other class features, feats, spells or magic items. As such, leap attack, shock trooper or magic items that would augment charges do not augment Seeker's Strike.

If successful in striking the foe, the attack delivers a bonus 1d6 points of raw attack damage for every 3HD the Centaur has and the foe is rendered shaken for 1d3 rounds. If the attack misses, but the Centaur's attack roll is sufficient to strike the foe's touch AC, the Centaur delivers the full attack damage to the opponent's shield, modified by hardness as normal. If the foe bears no shield, the attack strikes and damages their armor instead. Against unarmored opponents or against foes with only natural armor, the missed attack deals half damage, provided it would have hit their touch AC. Seeker's Strike cannot damage or destroy items that have a higher enhancement bonus than the Centaur's own weapon.

Weapons or armor that are brought to 0 hitpoints by Seeker's Strike are rendered ineffective, ceasing to grant benefits while still imposing any relevant penalties until dropped or removed. Such items are not utterly destroyed unless targeted and struck again. Items ruined by Seeker's Strike may be repaired by a blacksmith or a wizard as normal. Seeker's Strike is not effective against opponents that lack a vital area to target, and as such, cannot deliver the bonus damage, shaken or the dazed condition (described below) to opponents immune to critical hits.

At 5HD, the Centaur deals 150% damage to struck shields or armor when using Seeker's Strike and he still applies the shaken condition to creatures with natural armor, provided he at least hits their touch AC.

At 11HD, the Centaur may elect to impose a -4 penalty to his attack roll. Doing so allows the Centaur to daze a successfully struck foe for one round rather than render them shaken.

At 17HD, the Centaur deals double damage when damaging shields or armor with Seeker's Strike, and deals full damage (but not the ability's bonus damage), when using Seeker's Strike against a creature with natural armor, provided he hits their touch AC.

.
Felling Shot: Centaurs are hunters in a wilderness characterized by the most terrible magical beasts. Centaur archers thus learn through necessity how to place their arrows in such a way that they can drop even the most heavily scaled or unnatural foes. Felling shot allows a Centaur to apply a -3 penalty to his ranged attack rolls for the turn in exchange for increasing his critical threat range by two (For example, a -3 penalty would extend a 19-20 critical threat range to 17-20, a -6 penalty would extend it to 15-20) for each attack made. This may be done multiple times, to a maximum number of times equal to the Centaur's Dexterity mod. The benefits of Felling Shot stack with itself and with effects that augment critical threat range, such as the Keen magic weapon property. The adjustments of Felling Shot are applied after any other critical-augmenting effects such as the Keen weapon property.

At 8HD, the Centaur gains the ability to apply Power Attack to any ranged weapon that applies strength to damage rolls (this includes longbows, even though they only apply penalties). Ranged weapons that require two hands to fire (such as longbows) count as two handed weapons for the purposes of the feat, while most throwing weapons (such as javelins) do not.

At 14HD the Centaur reduces the penalty for each iteration of Felling Shot to -2. He reduces it again at 20HD to -1.
Growth (Ex): A third level Centaur grows to Large (long) size. His reach, grapple modifiers, natural attack damage and skills change accordingly, but he doesn't gain any ability score bonuses or penalties.

Wilds Reaver (Ex): The third level Centaur is master of combat on the open plains, capable of tearing through the enemy with surprising efficacy, be it up close or from afar. He adds the Ironshod Advance and the Thin the Herd combat options to his repertoire:

Ironshod Advance: The Centaur dashes through enemy ranks, cutting them down as he tears across the terrain. A full round action, Ironshod Advance allows the Centaur to make a standard movement. This movement cannot carry the Centaur through difficult terrain, magical or otherwise, and the Centaur may only make a single turn of up to 90 degrees during the movement.

Until the end of his turn, if the Centaur's movement would provoke an attack of opportunity from a foe with equal or lower BAB relative to his own, the Centaur instead delivers a free attack against that foe. The Centaur may only deliver one attack to each foe in this manner in a given round, and he may only use Ironshod Advance to deliver a total number of attacks equal to his Str mod or his Dex mod, whichever is higher. Should the Centaur be unable to attack, whether due to a status condition, spell or a lack of remaining attacks, he provokes attacks of opportunity as normal.

At 6HD, the Centaur provokes no attacks of opportunity from foes he has already struck as part of Ironshod advance. Such foes still effectively provoke the Centaur for the purposes of further attacks (See the 12HD and 18HD benefits below).

At 12HD, the Centaur may expand the number of attacks made. Whilst using Ironshod Advance, the Centaur may either make two attacks in total against each foe provoked during the movement or he may make three attacks in total against a single foe. In either event, each attack the Centaur makes must be triggered (That is, the Centaur taking an action that would provoke an attack of opportunity) individually.

At 18HD, a Centaur using Ironshod Advance may make any number of attacks against a given foe as part of his movement and is only limited in the total number of attacks made in a turn by his Str or Dex mod. As such, any movement that would provoke an Attack of Opportunity from a foe with equal/lower BAB relative to the Centaur's own allows the Centaur the option of making a free attack instead, to a maximum number equal to his Str or Dex mod, with no further restrictions. Each attack must still be provoked individually, with the Centaur taking an action that would provoke an attack of opportunity.

.
Thin the Herd: The Centaur fires a barrage of arrows as he rides past, with carefully placed arrows aimed at finishing off the weaker among the enemy ranks. The Centaur uses a ranged weapon to deliver a standard-action attack against every foe within a cone. This has a maximum range of one range increment and the Centaur may pick a maximum number of foes to target equal to his Dex mod. If the Centaur's ranged weapon applies Str to damage (this includes longbows, even though they only apply penalties), the Centaur may elect to use his Str mod to determine the maximum number of targets, instead. The Centaur makes one additional attack against each struck foe that had less hitpoints than the Centaur before the Thin the Herd barrage was fired. Additional attacks made against low health foes do not count against the Centaur's maximum number of shots. Should the Centaur move during his turn, he may deliver this attack in the midst of the movement.

At 9HD, anytime he uses Thin the Herd, the Centaur may choose between extending the area of the attack to 180 degrees or to increase the range to two range increments (with a penalty to attack as normal). Further, the Centaur makes the additional attack against any struck foes who had less hitpoints than the Centaur after the initial round of Thin the Herd shots have been made.

At 15HD each use of Thin the Herd allows a choice from among three options: both of the 9HD options at the same time, a burst extending outward from the Centaur, or three range increments. Finally, the Centaur delivers one additional attack against any struck foes with less than a quarter of their maximum hitpoints remaining. This is in addition to the cone attack and the additional attacks made against foes with less hitpoints than the Centaur.

Note that any additional attacks gained against low health foes when using Thin the Herd do not provide precision-based damage (such as Sneak attack die). If you score a critical hit, only the first arrow fired at each target deals critical damage; all others deal regular damage. Thin the Herd is focused more on quantity of attacks than quality and thus cannot be used alongside Felling Shot (and as such grants no bonus to critical chance nor power attack adjustments).

Comments
A revision, aimed at replacing this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7987339&postcount=91) old, outdated and somewhat disappointing rendition.

The Centaur is an archetype of Fantasy, common to any number of card games, video games, tabletop games, and the like. That said, it's rather easily overlooked as a monster in D&D.

As far as inspirations, my favorite depictions of the centaurs are those in Guild Wars, especially the revised version for Guild Wars 2 (see pic, above). I'm aware of there being some precedent for the Centaur in 2nd edition novellas, and I went out of my way to ensure that I allowed for such as much as I sold the 'centaurs as creatures of the wild' bit, I allowed for the centaur chevaliers in noble courts. All in all, though, the Centaur is a warrior of nature, adept hunter of beast and monstrous humanoid alike. The Wilds Skirmisher/Hunter/Reaver abilities give you attack options I feel are flavorful, representing the Centaur nature, fighting style and culture. I divided the attack options between general utility (Tromp and Trample), taking on lone foes (Seeker's Strike, Felling Shot) and groups (Ironshod Advance, Thin the Herd) for Wilds Skirmisher, Wilds Hunter and Wilds Reaver, respectively.

The only thing that bugs me is that the Centaur is supposed to have reason to go into Druid, and I couldn't make that work, really (it does remain a good way to get Woodland Stride for synergy with Hinterlands Courser, though). As is, it is well suited for entry into initiator classes (White raven would be a good fit flavorwise) or Scout. I'm content enough with that.

Changelog
Changes, March 4th, 2011:
Clarified a little on the things that apply to additional shots from
Changes, March 5th, 2011:
Wilds Skirmisher now also grants the Centaur maximum ranks in Ride for qualifying for feats or prestige classes.
I clarified Ironshod Advance by removing mention of the Centaur's bonus attacks being attacks of opportunity. They're now simply free attacks.
Clarified Tromp and Trample flavor text.
Added to class skills (added handle animal, intimidate, use rope)
Removed 'only' from Knowledge (Nature only, Int)
Buffed Felling Shot to make it more tempting. Each iteration now bumps your crit threat range by two rather than one (ie. from /20 to /18-20 rather than just 20 to /19-20).
Clarified the one-handed vs. two handed ranged weapon for the power attack enhancement of Felling Shot.
Clarified the action type of Thin the Herd. Clarified that the additional attacks referred to as not gaining precision damage are just the ones against low health foes.
Replaced erroneous mention of flatfooted AC in Seeker's Strike with touch ac.
It's keeping the longbow. Using a longbow on a horse is nigh impossible, as the SRD notes, but the centaur is less of a 'rider with a horse's shoulders/neck/head in front of him and more of a 'tall person who runs very fast and just happens to have a horse's hindquarters'. That, and the longbow Str adjustment is useful for several abilities (power attack, thin the herd).
Changes, March 14, 2011:
Changed save progression from Good Reflex/Will, Bad Fort to Good Fort/Reflex, Bad Will.
Clarified that the x4 skill points were granted at 1st only.
Clarified proficiencies to stress it gets no armor proficiencies.
Specified abilities as being (Ex).
Wilds Skirmisher now states the Centaur counts as being both a mounted rider and a mount at any time it would be beneficial (previously was just mounted rider). This now allows the centaur to wear horseshoes of speed and the like.
Clarified about ranged attacks and the effect of wind (or rain) to such. As of now, ranged attacks have reduced penalties only for the first range increment.
Seeker's Strike can no longer damage items with a higher enhancement bonus than the Centaur's own weapon.
Stated that the crit benefit of Felling Shot is applied after the Keen effects and the like.
Simplified Ironshod Advance, stating the Centaur may only make one turn during the movement, up to 90 degrees.
Ironshod Advance no longer grants +2 to hit and -1 AC, simplifying it some and making it a touch more balanced.
Changed wording of 12HD advancement of Ironshod Advance.
Expanded the wording of 18HD advancement of Ironshod Advance to hopefully make it clearer.
Clarified some wording on Thin the Herd, as it was ambiguous whether it referred to foes having less health than they did prior to having an arrow stuck in 'em or foes having less health than the Centaur (it was intended to be the latter).
Wording changed in Thin the Herd so the Centaur now picks a number of targets equal to his Dex mod. Less ambiguous about what happens when you have less shots than you have targets.
Thin the Herd no longer allows for precision based damage. (sneak attack, etc.)
Thin the Herd no longer works alongside Felling Shot.
Changed wording to stress that the choice at 9HD of Thin the Herd is made anytime you make the attack.
Ditto for 15HD.
Many thanks to Zemro Shivic for the feedback leading to all of the changes today.

[Benly]

Edit: Nothing to see here, Citizen. Move along.

[Benly]

So I like the Centaur's idea. I haven't gone over it in detail, but a point springs out: Thin The Herd is unclear about what damage benefits it does and doesn't apply. It doesn't give extra damage from a shocking weapon: does it get enhancement bonuses? Bane bonuses? Composite longbow Strength bonuses?

[Hyudra]

I won't be doing a batch critique tonight since my connectivity is really wonky as of late. Just had two hours without a usable connection. I'll get hours of time where I'm fine, then it'll drop and web pages will either not load or load like it's a 12kb/s connection, and instant messages won't consistently go through. I just recovered from the latter stage and don't know how long it'll hold up.

@Benly - I'll clarify some as far as Thin the Herd goes. I had a brief period of internet lucidity and I just wanted to post what I had and get a solid version down before my internet went wonky again.

Re: Feral Creature, I'm kind of annoyed that, when I discussed the subject of being interested in doing that very creature with Gorgon a week and a half ago, we agreed it wasn't in urgent demand of an remake. Then, in a relatively short span of time when I'm unable to reply, someone else asks, gets permission from Gorgon & posts said creature.

On the subject of the monster itself, max level should = CR. This is covered in the guide & the FAQ. There's no reason for the Feral creature to be different (and the old Feral creature was on target with 4 levels). I won't get into more depth because that's unfair to the people who actually followed instructions and are awaiting critiques.

[Benly]

Re: Feral Creature, I'm kind of annoyed that, when I discussed the subject of being interested in doing that very creature with Gorgon a week and a half ago, we agreed it wasn't in urgent demand of an remake. Then, in a relatively short span of time when I'm unable to reply, someone else asks, gets permission from Gorgon & posts said creature.

On the subject of the monster itself, max level should = CR. This is covered in the guide & the FAQ. There's no reason for the Feral creature to be different (and the old Feral creature was on target with 4 levels). I won't get into more depth because that's unfair to the people who actually followed instructions and are awaiting critiques.

I understand that you're angry because you were considering reworking it yourself. I only wrote it up and posted it because I failed to see it on the list, I admitted this when I saw it on the list and that I made a mistake, and I posted it because I was curious and wanted to get it out of my systems, only after asking the original poster and asking in the thread if this was a breach of etiquette. I have admitted the mistake involved, I don't want to offend anyone, but I didn't know you were considering it and I apologize if I have caused offense.

Regarding its level, the FAQ and guidelines are not clear regarding templates with variable CR, which Feral Creature explicitly has. I did not violate the design guidelines, I interpreted them as best I could: I gave it the low-end CR adjustment and then gave it abilities that unlock over time. I do not believe I violated the rules or guidelines, but I am sorry that I posted a creature that you had been hoping to discuss revising. I can take it back down if you think this is a problem.

[Hyudra]

I understand that you're angry because you were considering reworking it yourself. I only wrote it up and posted it because I failed to see it on the list, I admitted I saw it on the list and made a mistake, and I posted it because I was curious and wanted to get it out of my systems. I have admitted the mistake involved, I don't want to offend anyone, but I didn't know you were considering it and I apologize if I have caused offense.

My annoyance (not anger) is largely directed at Gorgon. We'd discussed and agreed that there was no call for the Feral Creature to be redone, and there's meant to be a process (outlined in past posts) for going about the whole 'revising previously done monsters' bit.

That said, he didn't explicitly give you permission, either. He suggested it would be a good plan to rework it in concert with Niezck, rather than repost it yourself. I can't know his reasoning or intent until I speak to him, though. Don't rush to action one way or another. Give me a chance to talk to him and discuss it first. That'll also give me a chance to chill out, since part of my annoyance is likely spillover from wrestling with my internet connection and dealing with Eastern Indian customer support.


Regarding its level, the FAQ and guidelines are not clear regarding templates with variable CR, which Feral Creature explicitly has. I did not violate the design guidelines, I interpreted them as best I could: I gave it the low-end CR adjustment and then gave it abilities that unlock over time. I do not believe I violated the rules or guidelines, but I am sorry that I posted a creature that you had been hoping to discuss revising. I can take it back down if you think this is a problem.

No, you're right, the outlines aren't clear with variable CR. In which case, a good approach would have been to either check other accepted work (ie. Half Celestial) or ask in the thread.

[NineThePuma]

... >>

<<

Just as an aside, and half on target about The Issue Of Dragons, I started working on a Black Dragon Monster Class[/color] based on the Pathfinder version of the creature. It can be found [url=http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=180510]in our Homebrew Spinoff (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=10495255#post10495255). Right now it is only at Wyrmling status, but I intend to add additional classes that add additional age categories to the dragon.

[Benly]

My annoyance (not anger) is largely directed at Gorgon. We'd discussed and agreed that there was no call for the Feral Creature to be redone, and there's meant to be a process (outlined in past posts) for going about the whole 'revising previously done monsters' bit.

That said, he didn't explicitly give you permission, either. He suggested it would be a good plan to rework it in concert with Niezck, rather than repost it yourself. I can't know his reasoning or intent until I speak to him, though. Don't rush to action one way or another. Give me a chance to talk to him and discuss it first. That'll also give me a chance to chill out, since part of my annoyance is likely spillover from wrestling with my internet connection and dealing with Eastern Indian customer support.

You have my sympathy on the internet issues; I know that can cause some serious headaches. Regarding the idea of coauthoring, I really have a lot of trouble coauthoring things with people I don't know, especially when it's material I'm relatively inexperienced with - part of the reason I did Feral at all is because it's a template I know pretty well, and I've been wanting to get practice with compressed classes before moving into larger projects. When I messaged Niezck, his suggestion was that I post as an alternate version, so I did that.

I'm not attached to seeing my Feral Creature version become part of The Project - it was sort of a practice thing to start with, and I wouldn't have done it if I'd realized a version was already done.



No, you're right, the outlines aren't clear with variable CR. In which case, a good approach would have been to either check other accepted work (ie. Half Celestial) or ask in the thread.

Fair enough. I tend to think of Feral, rightly or wrongly, as a fairly compressed template due to its low LA, so that probably played into how I chose to approach its CR. Even as it stands, my version could certainly be expanded to a two-level class or so - I feel like three or four is a little much.

[Gorgondantess]

On the subject of the Feral Creature: sorry? I don't see what the big deal was. There wasn't a call for it in either sense... and if you had finished the whole class yourself, I would've told you the same thing. But, as I remember it, you hadn't- you were just looking into doing it.
'Sides, I never said "Yeah, go right ahead, whee!" I said ask what Niezck thinks about it and perhaps work on a collaborative version... which does not mean "yeah, sure, we need a revision and yours will be added to the list". It means if it's better we might as well and since you've already done the damn thing it wouldn't be wasting anyone's time to do so.
As for the collaboration, hey, if the original maker wants to remake a monster with someone else's help I'm not going to stop either of them. I didn't suggest that with you because, frankly, your time would be better spent doing things that really need to be done (like the centaur and troll and minotaur and medusa n'sech) or things that will add to the project, like the Monstrous Spider. With less experienced folk like Benly, I'm just glad he's doing something and getting experience so as to rectify that title. Double standard? Yes. But I think I'm justified in it.
So... yeah, that was my thought process there, and I think it would be unfair of you to be mad at me because of it. Hell, you might even be able to tell Benly some of your ideas for it and get them done and out there. Or do a straightup collaboration. Or, so long as it won't piss Benly off, just say "give it this ability". Or do it yourself, if you really want. I mean, I wasn't stopping you there, and I'm not stopping you now. Just giving you my honest opinion.

[Bloody Initiate]

On Feral: Why not take a page from bloodlines and that ar-something dilletante that has weird requirements to advance?

So you take a a level of Feral and gain decent scaling abilities, but they stunt unless you take another level of Feral in a few levels, and if you take those levels you also get a nice gem.

Basically to stay impressively feral you have to go back to your feral ways every now and then. It keeps you from getting "too civilized".

So your first level grabs you Improved grab. You can't take the second level until you have 3 HD.

The second level grants you pounce and a bonus to your fast healing. You can't take the third level until you have 5 HD.

The third level gives you Rake and some other unlockables. You can't take the fourth level until you have 7 HD.

The fourth level gives you Rend and eventually, via HD minimums and advancement, an activateable power that partially counters FoM (Or your nice grapple character won't have anyone to grapple).

That's just a rough suggestion, but all this stuff is supposed to scale with HD anyway, it doesn't seem unfair to keep some of the really nice stuff from unlocking without further investment.

[Hyudra]

Centaur (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10494644&postcount=1151) Changes, March 4th, 2011:
Clarified a little on the things that apply to additional shots from Thin the Herd, taking a cue from Manyshot.

Depending on what is happening with my internet connection, I'll see what I can do for the batch critique tomorrow or the day after. As far as the debates over undead skills known and the feral creature, I'm just tired of that stuff, so I'm taking a break from it and just focusing on the homebrewing/critiquing.

Edit:
Front Page (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=10123010#post10123010) Changes, March 4th, 2011:
Added Justice Archon, Coure Eladrin, Half Dragon, Centaur and Feral Creature to the unfinished list.
To Be Critiqued
Gargoyle
Remorhaz
Jovoc
Vivisector
Aboleth
Phase Wasp
Violet Fungus
Chuul
Hooded Pupil
Phantom
Greenbound Creature et al.
Justice Archon
Coure Eladrin
Half Dragon
Unbodied & Pandorym skipped as they're psionic and under Gorgon's purview.
Skipping Ragewalker and Feral Creature as they are apparently WIP (noted as 'Waiting for better idea on induce blood frenzy' and only 1 level out of 4, respectively.
Briarvex, Half Golem, Gray Jester, Razor Boar, Black Dragon, Ettercap, Hellfire Wyrm, Corrupted Creature and Psurlon have not been updated since last batch critique. Will be skipping.
14 critiques in all.

[Benly]

Hmm. What I'm thinking of with Feral Creature is making it longer, and giving each level a fixed bonus and an extra Feral Evolution. If you take all four levels you'll probably end up with more than the original template gives you in total, but you won't be able to assemble the full list of the class's original abilities with one level and your bonus evolutions from HD.

[TheGeckoKing]

Hyudra, could you put off critiquing the Aboleth? There's a good chance i'll be making heavy changes soon and I don't want you wasting your time looking at the old version.

[ScionoftheVoid]

Likewise, I'm just about to alter the Gargoyle and it's only not far from finished anyway. Feel free to leave it out to save time.

[Niezck]

With regard to the Feral creature, I'd be happy to collaborate on an update or something. Equally, I'm happy for there to be alternative versions or whatever - the point of this project, as far as I'm aware, is to just get as many monsters statted up and balanced as is feasible. Whether they're alternatives of the same creature or not it doesn't really matter. So, yeah, go ahead with either.

[Hyudra]

Hyudra, could you put off critiquing the Aboleth? There's a good chance i'll be making heavy changes soon and I don't want you wasting your time looking at the old version.


Likewise, I'm just about to alter the Gargoyle and it's only not far from finished anyway. Feel free to leave it out to save time.

Sure. Thanks for the heads up. Makes it a little easier to go down the list.


With regard to the Feral creature, I'd be happy to collaborate on an update or something. Equally, I'm happy for there to be alternative versions or whatever - the point of this project, as far as I'm aware, is to just get as many monsters statted up and balanced as is feasible. Whether they're alternatives of the same creature or not it doesn't really matter. So, yeah, go ahead with either.

Ah, but I don't believe we are doing alternates. Given the amount of work that goes into finishing up a monster, it's kind of a poor use of time to do alternates if we're not advancing the project.

[mootoall]

Gorgondantess, I believe I've made all of the asked for changes to the Unbodied. Can you look it over again?

[ScionoftheVoid]

Alright, finished editing the Gargoyle. I've done pretty much just what Gorgondantess told me to, but I have two notes to add:

Horrendous Visage allows lower fear effects because sometimes it really doesn't help when your foe runs away rather than fighting at reduced efficiency for a round or two more.

Stone Cold Metabolism shall stay as it is, because it offers some clarification as to ongoing effects which affect only creatures or only objects, and because it gives exactly what you're immune to in said form (there are probably things that might be argued otherwise). Plus it took ages to write and already says you count as an object up front, the rest is just durations and clarifying not-impossible but rare circumstances.

[Benly]

So since we aren't interested in alternates, I'm not really very good at collaboration online, and it's causing inordinate amounts of drama, I took my Feral Creature back down. Sorry about all the fuss.

To avoid further concerns, is there anyone working on or with semi-hemi dibs on the Energon (MotP, PlH) or Firre Eladrin (BoED)?

[Hyudra]

Firre Eladrin are CR10, so I wouldn't encourage them for a first go.

Energon are CR4 and CR 5, depending on what type you go for, but they're incorporeal, which opens up a whole can of worms. They also lack bodies and don't speak, which is different from 'can't speak', and to top it all off, they have no land speed and rely on flight/floating. All in all, making them viable would be a challenge. Pandorym, Lantern Archon and Brain in a Jar, IIRC, have all struggled with one or more of the above, to varying degrees. Just so you know what you'd be getting into.

I do not believe anyone has called any of the races you mentioned..

[mootoall]

I'd like to call the Homunculus in honor of Psyborg.

[Benly]

Firre Eladrin are CR10, so I wouldn't encourage them for a first go.

Energon are CR4 and CR 5, depending on what type you go for, but they're incorporeal, which opens up a whole can of worms. They also lack bodies and don't speak, which is different from 'can't speak', and to top it all off, they have no land speed and rely on flight/floating. All in all, making them viable would be a challenge. Pandorym, Lantern Archon and Brain in a Jar, IIRC, have all struggled with one or more of the above, to varying degrees. Just so you know what you'd be getting into.

I do not believe anyone has called any of the races you mentioned..

I'm aware of the challenges involved. Dealing with energon incorporeality is actually one of the major reasons I went with Coure Eladrin first - if I could get a way to hammer out its alternate form's incorporeality, that could help a lot with progressing the energon. My current thought is that the energon starts out having trouble keeping its energy body stable on the Prime Material plane and so is easily damaged and disrupted by things passing through it, so it has to grow into the defensive advantages of incorporeality.

Regarding firre eladrin, they are CR10 but they're also reasonably straightforward in how their abilities work - my plan is to give them an "alternate" bardic music progression where they get songs comparable to but not identical to a bard of equal level. (For example, instead of Inspire Courage they get a song similar to Dragonfire Inspiration.) It's going to be pretty complex, so it's on the back burner, but my nature is to work on multiple projects at once so I just wanted to make sure I wasn't wasting my time on this like with Feral.

[Hyudra]

Forgive me, I get you, NinethePuma and Blood Initiate mixed up as you don't have avatars and you have the same 'critical of the system' approaches to the project. You're already working on Coure Eladrin? Glad as I am that you're actually contributing, the unfinished monster list is currently bloated out to nearly 30 monsters. Given that there's only so much work a given council member can do, it would be appreciated if you just focused on one monster at a time for the present, especially given that you're new to the homebrewing monster classes thing.

Failing that, if you feel compelled to have two or so monsters on the go at once, I would urge you to help out on the critiquing side of things to make up for the higher workload. Constructive criticism, particularly of newer monsters that I haven't gotten around to yet, or of council members' monsters (as we can't critique our own in a conventional sense).

[Benly]

Forgive me, I get you, NinethePuma and Blood Initiate mixed up as you don't have avatars and you have the same 'critical of the system' approaches to the project.

Ouch. I'm not trying to be broadly critical of the system; I think that there are some silly bits but largely it seems to work. That said, if I end up working on certain undead or constructs, there may be a problem with the current class-skills issue for them which I really don't like.


You're already working on Coure Eladrin? Glad as I am that you're actually contributing, the unfinished monster list is currently bloated out to nearly 30 monsters. Given that there's only so much work a given council member can do, it would be appreciated if you just focused on one monster at a time for the present, especially given that you're new to the homebrewing monster classes thing.

Like I said, it's in my nature to work on more than one thing at once. I'm not reserving Firre Eladrin or Energon, because I don't know that I'll be finishing them but I'm poking at my ideas in text file form and wanted to make sure I wouldn't be stepping on any toes. Right now, "focus on Coure Eladrin" means "sit around, wait for anyone to give me feedback on Coure Eladrin". I don't mind that it takes people a while to get around to it, but I don't really feel like sitting on my thumb while that particular project's at a stage where I can't do anything to move it forward.



Failing that, if you feel compelled to have two or so monsters on the go at once, I would urge you to help out on the critiquing side of things to make up for the higher workload. Constructive criticism, particularly of newer monsters that I haven't gotten around to yet, or of council members' monsters (as we can't critique our own in a conventional sense).

I'm not going to start posting the firre eladrin or energon until the coure eladrin is hammered out. I'm working on them in the sense of structuring out class abilities for them in text files and chewing over my thoughts about them in my spare time, because I work on multiple things at a time habitually. It's just how my brain works.

[Hyudra]

Ah yes, my brain works much the same way.

Sadly, with 30 monsters on the to-do list, there's not much I can do to get stuff done faster than I am now. I'm about halfway through the critiques now (and am on the verge of starting to critique the newly posted monsters, which may take a bit longer) and I've tried to hold back on the nitpicking of spelling/grammar/format, but I really do encourage people to take Psyborg up on his offer to either review or fix up your posts for grammar/structure/spelling/format. A few people, I've stressed this in the critique itself, because stuff didn't seem to flow well as language went.

It remains to be seen how well such will work in the long run, with people both going to Psyborg and Psyborg being able to handle such requests, but I'm hoping it does let me critique faster and better.

[Benly]

So hey, feedback on the Centaur (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10494644&postcount=1151) because I saw it. I generally like it, so anything where I don't have something to say means I like it but couldn't think of anything to say about it.:smalltongue:

Skills: The skill list seems a little short for 6 skill points per level, but that's subjective.

Hinterlands Courser: As written you can trot through lava unharmed as long as it's shallow enough that you wouldn't have to swim.

Seeker's Strike: I really like it. Definitely pack adamantine weapons on a centaur to trash enemies' armor but good. Is the bonus damage precision damage or just "I am hitting you very hard" damage?

Felling Shot: Interesting ability. Not sure I'd bother using the basic form, but it doesn't hurt to have the option, and the 8HD upgrade is excellent. Does a longbow get double benefit from Power Attack, being a two-handed weapon?

Ironshod Advance: If these bonus attacks are actually attacks of opportunity, either the ability needs to explicitly grant bonus AoOs or the ability is useless without Combat Reflexes.

Thin The Herd: Does "additional attacks made as part of Thin The Herd" in the last paragraph mean the bonus attacks against low health foes? If so, does this mean that precision damage can be applied once per enemy in the barrage? Also, it doesn't list an action type required.

[Hyudra]

Skills: The skill list seems a little short for 6 skill points per level, but that's subjective.

I don't know what I'd really add, though. Profession? Use rope? I wouldn't want to reduce the # of skill points either, as it's fairly in line with, say, ranger.


Hinterlands Courser: As written you can trot through lava unharmed as long as it's shallow enough that you wouldn't have to swim.

Hrm. I may have to clarify there. Not sure how I'd go about it. Will figure something out.


Seeker's Strike: I really like it. Definitely pack adamantine weapons on a centaur to trash enemies' armor but good. Is the bonus damage precision damage or just "I am hitting you very hard" damage?

I was thinking more the latter.


Felling Shot: Interesting ability. Not sure I'd bother using the basic form, but it doesn't hurt to have the option, and the 8HD upgrade is excellent. Does a longbow get double benefit from Power Attack, being a two-handed weapon?

It would by RAW, yes. I may need to make the basic form more tempting.


Ironshod Advance: If these bonus attacks are actually attacks of opportunity, either the ability needs to explicitly grant bonus AoOs or the ability is useless without Combat Reflexes.

Well, I figured there was a workaround there, given that you're explicitly informed that you may make a maximum # of attacks based on your Str or Dex mod, but I'll clarify.


Thin The Herd: Does "additional attacks made as part of Thin The Herd" in the last paragraph mean the bonus attacks against low health foes? If so, does this mean that precision damage can be applied once per enemy in the barrage? Also, it doesn't list an action type required.

It means the attacks made against low health foes (lower than the centaur or below 25% health). Yes, you'd apply precision damage to each enemy in the barrage. I'll clarify on the action, though it should be fairly clear by the text & common sense.

Thank you for the critique & feedback. It's appreciated.

[Benly]

Well, I figured there was a workaround there, given that you're explicitly informed that you may make a maximum # of attacks based on your Str or Dex mod, but I'll clarify.

As it was written, it's not clear that this isn't just an additional limiter placed on how many you may make within your AoO limit. If they're bonus AoOs this should probably be stated.


It means the attacks made against low health foes (lower than the centaur or below 25% health). Yes, you'd apply precision damage to each enemy in the barrage. I'll clarify on the action, though it should be fairly clear by the text & common sense.

The bit about the centaur moving during the barrage surprised me, actually, because I had for some reason been assuming the ability was a full-round action. It's probably best to be clear that it's a standard action (which I now assume it is).


Anyhow, I went to the Unfinished list and threw an imaginary dart at the screen, so now I have some words to say about the Unbodied (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10469494&postcount=906).

Unbodied Body: hee hee hee. Sorry, had to get that out of the way.

Assume Appearance: "The Unbodied can additionally spend two power points to copy one opponent exactly, down to their actions and tone of voice." Opponent is an odd choice of word here - I realized you were considering it primarily as a combat option when I kept reading the ability, but it makes it sound like an ability that can only be used in combat. Is this so? My first thought with this ability would be to use it out of combat for spying and sneaking. If I copy someone this way and retain his form, and later meet somebody outside of combat who knows my disguise, does that person make a Will check as well to realize that I'm not who I appear?

General: What is a first-level Unbodied actually supposed to do? In general, first-level characters may not be very good at what they do but they have some class ability that they can deploy in a fight. The Unbodied has +0 BAB, a d6 hit die, and Read Thoughts. Starting at level 2 he starts getting actual abilities and powers, but what is a level 1 Unbodied doing when trouble starts? For that matter, what does a level 1 Unbodied look like? Does it turn from a flying brain like the picture at level 1 to a gray glowing humanoid at 2?

[Gorgondantess]

Unbodied: Benly has all very good points. Hats off to Benly for that.
Read Thoughts shouldn't come until 3rd level or 3rd HD, whichever.
The bonus power points thing is a little unnecessary, as well as manifesting stacking when it already gets, y'know, manifesting.
I still don't like assume appearance. I know you like the in combat application, but it's just a little silly.
Also, it shouldn't change the unbodied's AC & attack bonus.
Now you see me, now you don't: okay, fine, teleporting is cool and all, but it violates one of the basic rules of this project: the need to stay relevant. Why should a level 20 unbodied bother with that when it can just use dimension door as a swift action?
Hide Mind: ...Huh. This is pretty potent. It works against true seeing, see invisibility and the like? Damn. Not sure if that's a good thing.
Also, update your text/table.
Finally, the thing is... I just don't see the unbodied using weapons/armor/fighting. It's (primarily) a giant, floating brain with incredible telepathic power. Why would you ever bother ganking someone when you can use your great mind powers to turn their brain into jelly? Beyond that, being incorporeal makes ganking people difficult.
And not only does the fluff not really seem to fit, but the mechanics as well. None of it synergizes. The various abilities a monster gets should work together, not at odds with one another. Hide Mind is great- I like what you've done with it. Assume Appearance is reasonable for disguise purposes. But the sneak attack multiclassing/touch attacks? The only attacks (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/energyRay.htm) an unbodied (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/entanglingEctoplasm.htm) should be making (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/disintegratePsionic.htm) are touch (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/fuseFlesh.htm) attacks. And that's just off the top of my head.
I like how you handled the incorporeality, though. You could reduce the power points or increase the duration, though.

[Benly]

Now you see me, now you don't: okay, fine, teleporting is cool and all, but it violates one of the basic rules of this project: the need to stay relevant. Why should a level 20 unbodied bother with that when it can just use dimension door as a swift action?

A suggestion that comes to mind for that would be to have it no longer require PP above a certain number of character HD. At that point it's similar to the Dimensional Jaunt reserve feat: probably not the best teleport effect available to you, but a simple teleport available without any resource expenditure has value of its own when time isn't a pressure.



But the sneak attack multiclassing/touch attacks? The only attacks (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/energyRay.htm) an unbodied (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/entanglingEctoplasm.htm) should be making (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/disintegratePsionic.htm) are touch (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/fuseFlesh.htm) attacks. And that's just off the top of my head.

I think it's worth noting that the sneak attack stacking makes a two-level dip in Lurk an interesting option for a ray-focused Unbodied, adding up to 4d6 sneak attack damage on top of the damage dealt from normal augmentation (which can be brought back up to full with Practiced Manifester, which you'd want anyway.) I like the idea of encouraging a sneaky-psion style one way and another.

[mootoall]

I shall take these notes into account, though I'll note once again the fluff presented about them being a master spy, and that being a floating brain is only one form they're noted to take.

[Lizard Lord]

For the centaur's class skills you have "Knowledge (Nature only" and I have to wonder, is the "only" part really necessary? Its a silly little nitpick, I know, but I would think you would be able to put down Knowledge (Nature), by itself without confusing anyone.

[Gorgondantess]

Centaur:
While the centaur in the SRD is shown using a longbow, that always struck me as rather odd. Longbows are pretty much impossible to use while atop a horse. I suppose being attached to the horse might make things easier, but logistically it still doesn't really make sense. Personally, I'd change it to shortbow.
We've already discussed ride & other class features, so that's taken care of...
Tromp and Trample: I'm sorry, but I'm just having a hard time envisioning this. Is the Centaur supposed to be leaping over the opponent who may or may (probably) not have been knocked prone? If a 7' centaur is doing this to a 3' halfling, okay, sure, but a 7' centaur doing this to a 6'5" human? And that's of a smaller size- how about a 10' tall ogre?
Seeker's Strike: don't you mean touch AC, not flatfooted AC? Touch is what's used for the sunder n'such, anyways. Makes a... lot more sense that way.:smallconfused:
Ironshod advance: This involves complex AoOing that makes my head hurt.:smallfrown:
Nevertheless, good ability. Works.
All in all, solid. It's a little complex, but it works, so... it works.

Drow:
Noble caste: how long does the cowering last? Also, there's pretty much no reason to ever choose the 5' step option unless you know that your foe isn't going to fail their will save except on a one. Normally having that sort of option against enemies immune to fear is nice... but they need to be already fear'd, so that's a moot point. Cowering is a potent status effect comparable to stunning. It's pretty much a game ender, unless it's one round long.
Warrior Caste: Allow me to repeat: halfweight mountain plate. Just so you consider it. Actually, I suppose it's not that bad, as you're spending oodles of cash and at least one feat to get a very fallible version of wings of cover, unlimited use.
Also, what does "sole" target mean? For example, I'd consider it a little odd that the drow could deflect every ray in a scorching ray spell if they were all directed at her, but not one ray if another ray is directed at another target? Though I suppose I AM mincing words.
Mage Caste: Okay, so the first ability allows you to cast any SLA on the area/target/targets of a 3rd level spell... so why not just let it cast any SLA on any target/area on a 3rd level spell or higher? A lot less words that way.
Casteless drow: ...iiiinteresting. Not a bad ability... but damn, just that can shut down a lot of builds. I'd leave it as is, though. 'Scool.
Scheme: I still don't see why a spontaneous caster couldn't get a metamagic feat. Something like arcane thesis, sure, that shouldn't work, but metamagic would be awesome.

Vivisector & Phase wasp to come.



I shall take these notes into account, though I'll note once again the fluff presented about them being a master spy, and that being a floating brain is only one form they're noted to take.
Beguilers are also master spies, and they don't do any stabbing/ganking.

[Hyudra]

Jovoc (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9955384&postcount=425)
The post looks a lot tidier without the 1st level, 2nd level headings.
For 16HD, you may want to reword Cursed Wound, because there is an advantage to dazing as opposed to stunning (namely, lots of stuff are immune to stuns, not so with daze). As such, I'd say "At 16HD, you may cause them to be stunned."
Bloodclaws, can you spend those 5hp more than once?
"These attacks may still qualify for Punishment Strikes as if they were melee attacks by paying an additional 5hp." - Wording is awkward. Perhaps: "If you pay an additional 5 hp, this ranged attack with Bloodclaws can also apply your Punishment Strike effects, described above."
50hp? Is that intentional? What kind of action is this? Detail the save DC.
Retributive Aura: All creatures within a 15 foot radius.
Close to done, home stretch and all that. Sentence structure is occasionally iffy, and general consistency is a little off, but I'm not in the mood to nitpick this morning. Make the changes above, and I will hand you over to Gorgon. As a suggestion, though, if you want a really polished looking monster class, you might wish to enlist Psyborg's assistance, as I do believe he'd fix those instances of awkward wording for you & then send you the finished work to post.

Remorhaz (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9980073&postcount=505)
Ah, it has been a while since we sat down with our Freudian Remorhaz.
"The Remorhaz is a medium magical beast, with a long, many-legged, segmented body, and the reach of a long creature of its size category." - reach of a long creature? This is confusing. Why not say, rather, that its bite attack is a reach weapon?
I don't like the capitalized STR and CON. It's visually distracting and nobody else does it.
"At the end of a charge during the first round of combat, or if the enemy is considered flat-footed..." - this is a little restrictive and more than a little confusing. If I make a normal non-charge attack against a flat footed enemy, it's counted as a charge nonetheless? Or is it at the end of a charge either during the first round of combat or at the end of a charge where the enemy is flat footed? It's such a niche ability, given the stringent requirements, that you won't get a lot of mileage out of it. A shame because it's the only thing that really sets you apart at early levels.
2*STR bludgeoning - we don't use asterisks.
"move the opponent more then 5 ft" -> than.
"The Remorhaz can use this abilty 1/day/4HD(minimum 1)." See how in the latter half, there's a ton of information crammed into a small amount of space, without spaces? It's hard to parse. Suggest writing it out as 'use this ability once a day for every 4HD it has (with a minimum of one).
I wouldn't make ending heat a free action. That doesn't make a ton of sense and it means there's no cool tricks that enemies can use against you (like flinging a teammate into the Remorhaz.) Swift?
Is it intended/allowed for the Remoraz to bite itself to do the 'superheated bodily fluids' attack in the direction of its choice?
For that matter, what happens if a creature sharing a space with the remorhaz deals slashing or piercing damage to it?
I still don't like the prone condition on Ambush. It's arguably too easy to set up and you can win fights before they start. Open battle by burrowing/using hide to close in, Bull Rush a key target, knocking them down in a surprise round. Your allies delay their actions until you've acted, and use the surprise round to enter the battlefield. First round of combat, you or any allies who've beat that target in initiative move in and attack the vulnerable target. If he tries to stand up, he's provoking several attacks of opportunity, so he's basically a goner.
@ Feel the Burn - perhaps make it a full round without exertion (avoiding attacks or movement), but allowing other, simpler actions, like spells without somatic components.
Not sure I like how Feel the Burn can apparently burn through anything, given time. Like, you can burn through doors or dungeon walls, melt adamantine or, RAW you can occupy a space next to a foe and melt their armor off. Needs limitations and needs to allow item saving throws. With 18 con, 36 damage, that's enough to melt armor with a +7 bonus.
How detectable is the Remorhaz while it's using Lurker in the Wastes?
Cobra Strike: Is this in addition to the innate long reach? You have your bite being listed as having the reach of a large creature, (or as a reach weapon under my suggestion), then you're advancing it with Cobra Strike, and again, presumably, with growth. I'm wondering what the goal is here.
Improved Grab: is a 7th level ability in the text, a 5th level ability on the table.
RAW, I can use improved grab to swallow whole if I don't have swallow whole as a class feature yet (acquiring improved grab at 5th and swallow whole at 7th)
"(1/3HD*5'ft)" - Again, superdense information, asterisk, very confusing.
I would urge you to take Psyborg up on his offer regarding getting your post worked out for format and wording, as it's a bit kludgy here and there.

Vivisector (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10219990&postcount=129)
I'll direct I have now directed Gorgon to this one.

Phase Wasp (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10399951&postcount=524)
A bunch of sentences don't end with periods, particularly when you're detailing advancement of abilities with HD.
Besides that, I'll direct I have now directed Gorgon to this one.

Violet Fungus (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10400122&postcount=526)
Came across this image (http://i56.tinypic.com/2isi2s9.jpg) yesterday. Made me think 'violet fungus'. The perspective isn't terribly clear, so it's hard to tell whether Resized in case you were interested in plugging it into your monster.
Seems weird that it has knowledge as a class skill but can't actually communicate that knowledge.
'It gains another tentacle for every 3HD it has'. This kind of makes for a huge amount of attacks with a huge amount of poison damage later on. I mean:

18th level Violet Fungus with 6 tentacles attacks Jorge, the dwarf peasant. Full to-hit on each, and given that hit bonuses scale more smoothly than AC, Jorge gets hit by all six. Jorge takes 1d8 damage from each tentacle, then faces 6d8 Str damage and 6d6 Con damage. Even if he makes half the saves, Jorge melts into a puddle of goo, screaming throughout. Even if he doesn't, he's still facing as much as 12d6 Str damage and 6d8 Con damage in secondary damage.
With that, maybe a restriction that you can't hit anyone with more than two tentacles in a given round? Bump that up to three tentacles at higher level?
Clarify under capturing tentacles that they have to save against the poison every two rounds they are being grappled.
Consider indenting the subordinate abilities. So since Consuming Tentacles requires Capturing tentacles, you'd use another Rapid Poison: period until the violet fungus's...
Can I urge you to add a 'Fungus grows a size category' option, stemming from Tough Fungus?
The Paralysis of Paralytic Poison is a bit much, duration wise. Reduce to something like 1/2 Con mod? That's really more than enough, in exchange for tacking on a SoL to your attacks (which you're bound to be using anyways).
Improved Consumption is a bit wonky. Stuff tends to break (ie. Hulking Hurler) when you start getting into 'pounds'. Plus, since it takes 10 minutes to break down a pound of flesh, you're only really getting 10 minutes of benefit, counting from when you finish eating (because by the time you consume a 2nd pound of flesh, the first has worn off).
If you feel the urge to change that, then consider for a moment that a Balor weighs 4,500 pounds. 45,000 minutes? 750 hours? 31 days?
And the bonus is too big.
And it's inconvenient because there's no standard measure for what a given creature weighs. Needs tweaking, that ability.

Chuul (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10414321&postcount=585)
No first round constrict is a good add. It gives the enemy a chance, at least.
Bonus damage on lurking predator is ok, but should specify what sort of damage it is.
"A number of times per day equal to to one third its HD..." - reword to "Once a day for every three HD it has..."
How many times a day can the Chuul use madness? A PBAoE SoL is pretty daunting.
"One of the chuul's claws grows to monstrous size, dealing damage as though the chuul was two size categories larger and is treated as a two-handed weapon for the purposes of calculating damage bonuses" - so your claw then, at seventh level, deals 4d6 + 1.5x Str damage, with improved grab, constrict and throw. Ok, I could live with that. The stun, though, is a bit much to tack onto something you're going to be doing a great deal otherwise. Hide checks are fine.

Hooded Pupil (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10449208&postcount=711)
On the table, it should look like:
Hooded Body, Resistance to Cold, Dark Power, +1 Wis, +1 Cha
When you're detailing what they do, abilities don't appear in the same order they do in the table.
I thought you were adding features specific to given undead masters. I can only assume you're still working on that?

Greenbound Creature (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10472865&postcount=920)
It's standard practice, even for the templates, to have something along the lines of "Greenbound Body", where you detail the changes to the creature's type, granted benefits, changes to natural armor and so on.
Think of the template monster class as something of a prestige class. As such, the requirements for entry should also include some steps being taken to actually become greenbound, rather than suddenly just having it happen to you.
The class skills list is just a little long considering the relatively few skill points. Are Craft, Disguise, Profession and Use Rope that fitting?
Attribute Bonus: You have [monster] as opposed to Greenbound Creature.
Symbiont:
[list] Personally, I consider the monster entry over at the end of the changelog. So it's weird that you're referring to material way down at the bottom of the post, below another monster, even. I recommend having the list of symbionts added in a spoiler just below the Symbiont ability of the Greenbound Creature.
I like that you have the whole "they're considered the same entity, the symbiont cannot be attacked or targeted separately" and so on. It's very simple, it's elegant, it doesn't threaten to bog down gameplay or be a pain in the arse...
...Which perplexes me, because you then have it so that a resurrected creature doesn't come with the Symbiont, and you get into all these details about how to remove the symbiont, how to replace it, how the replacement affects the creature, and so on. Can I ask what the thought process was here? Like, what scenario would crop up that would have you wanting to remove your symbiont in a painful and drawn out procedure that leaves you vulnerable for a considerable period after?
In short, that whole bit feels unnecessary.
Fortification and Clear mind are fine.
Weather Sense: I've personally never made a survival check to predict the weather. Seems like kind of a niche ability. However, that level isn't too cluttered, and it gets something useful with Mettle and Parallel Action, so something for flavor doesn't hurt.
Parallel Action: This... I dunno. My natural instinct is to look at something that gives extra actions and go "Uh oh". But as this ability depends on the nature of the abilities the Symbionts get, I can't say until I go through those (after Greenbound Paragon).

Greenbound Paragon (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10472865&postcount=920)
Ditto on the skills.
It seems strange that you encourage having a variety of familiar/mount/animal companions, but you actively punish (through less overall benefits/progression) having combined companions and/or mounts and/or familiars. Can you explain why?
Greater Symbiont/Second Symbiont - looks ok. Again, depends what the Symbiont wind up like.
Greenbound Body - Typically, 'body' abilities are the first ability you get in a particular progression through a monster class or template/prestige monster class.
It's really, really, really weird that you're losing class features with your third level in Greenbound Paragon.
Really don't love the floating actions. I mean... it's celerity as a per encounter. Only you're not dazed as a consequence. I hesitate to use the term, but that's flat out broken, as far as raw power goes. I urge you to come up with something else as a capstone.

Greenbound Symbionts (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10472865&postcount=920)
Climbing Rose:
What happens if I have a natural attack (ie. Claw) and I get thorns? I'd expect something to augment my claws, bite, gore, etc.
Ok, and again, in answer to what I said about Parallel Action - getting charm monster without using an action once a day? That's way too powerful at, say, 7HD.
Splinterbolt isn't in the SRD. We don't reference/use abilities in material a player doesn't necessarily have access to, so giving them a spell in a book a player may not necessarily own is a general no-no. Recommend either leaving it in and giving an alternate option. Such as "...either Splinterbolt (from [source]) or _____."
Since I don't know your source for many of the spells, can't review that. Same issue as splinterbolt for thorns & quill blast, though.
Nightshade:
Breath of the jungle, not in SRD or any free content.
Unrefined poison - 10 + con mod is a weaksauce DC that most enemies are going to beat without a sweat. Should be 10 + ½ HD + Con mod.
The poison damage needs to scale. See Wyvern or monstrous spider for examples of scaling.
The random ability score: maybe offer a table for a d6?
Poisonous: do they get a saving throw?
These abilities seem a lot better than what you get from Rose.
Oak:
There's established standards for DR. DR equal to ½ HD is good.
Sunflower:
The least powers really feel subpar compared to what Nightshade and Oak get. Worse than rose, even.
Lesser Powers aren't that great either, just going by what I'm familiar with. Don't know most of the spells or the sources to look 'em up.
The fast healing progression seems unwieldy. What's that meant to be for moonlight?
Moonflower:
I just hit the unspoiler button and woah, long list compared to the others. Let's see...
♪ Don't know what these spells are. ♪
Don't love vessel of the full moon's light. Too niche for my tastes.
Vessel of the Waning Moon's Inevitability. Long ability name. Shorten? It's a little weird as abilities go. I just don't know I get the flavor (suppressing healing? Why?)
Turning lycanthropes, again, sorta niche. In my last five-ish campaigns, there was only one encounter with a lycanthrope, and I don't know that it really demanded turning.
Plus turn undead & the equivalents are sorta lame. I mean, the checks you make don't scale nearly as fast as the undead (or in this case, lycanthropes) do, so you wind up with it being obsolete at mid-late levels.
Vessel of the Waxing Moon's Hope... uh, this is a better option on its own than any other two options on the list put together. DR for your party? Boosted saves? No question.
Moonfire, can't comment.


Justice Archon (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10474880&postcount=941)
Formatting throws me for a loop. I can't complain, exactly - the ability score increases having their own column is nice and tidy - but it does go against convention and takes getting used to.
No Knowledge (Religion)? You'd think, being an Archon and all...
Justice Strike: Needs clarification. Does it apply to any weapon they could wield? Any weapon they have on their person? Any weapon they're holding? Natural attacks only?
"...or take a -1 penalty to AC, Saves, until..." - reword to '...or take a -1 penalty to AC and saves until..."
"in which case the target does take the aura's penalty to their opposed roll." - I'd reword to "in which case the target that fails the save against Aura of Meance takes the aura's penalty to their opposed roll."
Five rounds is long enough to not matter. Shorten to three? Or even two?
"and making a concentrations check " - should be concentration.
Aligned strike - state that it's gained at 2nd level.
"Against their Quarry, treat this as DR/-." - add, after Quarry, a bracketed (see below) so people don't find themselves rereading the text leading up to that point.
"gain a resistance to electricity equal to their HD*2" - reword to "gain a resistance to electricity equal to twice their HD."
"Justice Archon's excel at tracking" - remove the apostrophe.
"As a swift action the Archon's of third level" - here too.
"they have witnessed the target commit a crime and/or attack the Archon and her allies" - include Eyes of the Judge identification of the guilty here too?
"or the quarry evades the Archon's sight for 1 day per HD" - per HD of which individual, the target or the Archon? Clarify.
"A Justice Archon always knows the general direction and distance" - elaborate? Like, maybe state the Justice Archon is aware the target is north, east, south, west, northeast, from her current position, and either 'close, not far, far or distant' from her?
"The target does not benefit from magical concealment or invisibility against the Archon, and cannot evade her sight with a hide check." - I don't know that I like this. Shuts down a lot of monsters.
"The target still befits from cover's other bonuses" - reword to 'from the other bonuses of cover.'
"Whenever their quarry fails their save against the Archon's Aura of Menace, they are shaken in addition to all other effects." - reword to "Quarry that fails their save against the Archon's Aura of Menace is shaken for [however many] rounds in addition to any other effects.
Harry - The immediate action move is a little much, even without the bonus attack. It just doesn't require any meaningful strategy or consideration of what actions to use on the Archon's part.
Shared Fate - A little too easy to use, again, considering the sheer magnitude of the benefit. Needs to be toned down, needs more effort on the Archon's part or needs a way for the offending caster to get around it.
"Allies within this aura gain the benefits of a Protection from Alignment spell with the Archon choosing one aspect of their alignment to base the spell's effects on." - RAW, this means an evil Archon would grant a protection from evil? Shouldn't it be the opposite?
I like the benefits of Archon's wings. Nice.
Teleport six times a day at 6th level? It's a 5th level spell that you, by all rights, would be accessing at 10th. I would suggest, instead, a Dimension Door effect with a severely curtailed field of effect (any location you can see within 10' per HD) and number of uses a day (½ HD?). As you gain HD, remove the 'any location you can see' limiter, and increase the distance appropriately (ie. something like 50 + 10' per HD, then 100' +10' per HD, etc.).
Pursuit: You switch from 'she' to 'they' in the middle of the sentence.
Overall, I like it more than I thought I would before starting the review.
That said, some power level issues (several abilities too effective given how easy they are to pull off/use) and general grammar issues crop up. I encourage you to use Psyborg's review service to get your grammar/spelling polished where necessary.

Coure Eladrin (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=10480332#post10480332)
Two more to go, woo.
Alrighty. We've got another Tiny. Let's see what you've done to make it different from 75% of the other tiny creatures in this project:
Joyous Body should be Coure Eladrin Body. Yes, it's boring. Sorry, it's the way we do it.
The flight rule isn't terribly clear about her 'flittering' (fluttering? I don't know flitter is a word.) to the ground. What if you stated that if she doesn't land, she must move directly downward on her subsequent turns (using movement) until she reaches a solid surface?
Wow. Must say, it's nice going through the SLAs and finding no glaring problems. I'd prepared a new [list} tag to hammer out the problems I'm so used to running into with such. I commend you on the scaling of sleep. That's something many overlook.
Alternate form: Might I suggest a penalty to hide when in glowing ball form?
Why not say, instead of going from 20% at 2HD to 50% at 5HD, that the Coure Eladrin gains a 10% chance to be missed per HD, to a maximum of 50%?
Overall, big picture, it's got a lot of defensive options, and at 2nd level, between incorporeality, magic circle against evil, tiny size and light armor, she's remarkably durable. I might suggest lowering her HD to a d4, just so that when something does penetrate the defenses, it gets felt.
Nicely done. It's a little samey as other tiny creatures, but different enough to pass. It's nice not having a mess of stuff to list. Make the changes above and I can see myself handing it over to Gorgon.

Half Dragon (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10494357&postcount=1145)
Last one, yay!
"CDiplomacy" - you didn't spot this yourself?
"Darkvision out to 60 feet and low-light vision, plus immunity to sleep and paralysis effects" - not a complete sentence.
Three natural attacks at first level is a bit much.
"Those are the values for a medium sized half-dragon, and should be adjusted to half-dragons of other size by the standard die size changes." - Awkward wording, can really be more elegantly stated.
We try to avoid giving immunities too easily, and usually couple them with a vulnerability. You're granting an immunity at first level. So... you're actually better than a red dragon? Fire immunity with no cold vulnerability. Woo.
2d8 damage a level for breath weapon damage really feels kinda kludgy.
Draconic Legacy is a nightmare, for much the same reasons that WotC didn't give us retroactive skill point calculations for int increases. The math hurts my brain.
Generally speaking, there's a reason we've made a project of fixing Oslecamo's old stuff. It's boring. The Half Dragon you present is kinda boring too. Two class levels and you get a bunch of passive stuff and one active ability. One could forgive the shortage of active abilities, given that it's a short class, but really, first level feels painfully lacking. What are you meant to contribute to your party? Claw attacks?
And the breath weapon... when I think on it, doesn't have a recharge, so even if you're doing about half the damage that the dragons are, you're firing it off every round. That's bizarre.
There's a few notable flaws - it doesn't feel half dragonish, you're superior to your draconic parents in some respects (immunities, hit die when multiclassing), strangely near-equal in others (natural armor), there's questionable balance issues (3 attacks on a full attack?) and it's just a little bit boring.


Previous Batch Critiques (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=182724&page=30)

If you weren't reviewed:
You're a psionic creature, and you're Kyuubi's & Gorgondantess' business until you're almost done, when I get to look over you & give the final verdict.
You didn't make changes for a previous critique
You had something on your monster that implied it wasn't yet done.

[Benly]

Joyous Body should be Coure Eladrin Body. Yes, it's boring. Sorry, it's the way we do it.
Is "Coure Body" acceptable? It doesn't roll off the tongue, but Coure Eladrin Body is just incredibly bad to my ears and Coure Body I can at least say with a straight face.


The flight rule isn't terribly clear about her 'flittering' (fluttering? I don't know flitter is a word.) to the ground. What if you stated that if she doesn't land, she must move directly downward on her subsequent turns (using movement) until she reaches a solid surface?
Changed to explicitly duplicate the effects of feather fall. Flitter is a word, but an uncommonly used one.


Wow. Must say, it's nice going through the SLAs and finding no glaring problems. I'd prepared a new [list} tag to hammer out the problems I'm so used to running into with such. I commend you on the scaling of sleep. That's something many overlook.
Thank you.


Alternate form: Might I suggest a penalty to hide when in glowing ball form?
The original creature explicitly does not receive such a penalty if it chooses to reduce its light radius to none (the "barely-shimmering outline") and actually has a racial bonus to Hide checks. I've clarified the description to make clear that you have to reduce your light radius to hide.


Why not say, instead of going from 20% at 2HD to 50% at 5HD, that the Coure Eladrin gains a 10% chance to be missed per HD, to a maximum of 50%?
I considered it but thought it might be a bit complex. Changed.


Overall, big picture, it's got a lot of defensive options, and at 2nd level, between incorporeality, magic circle against evil, tiny size and light armor, she's remarkably durable. I might suggest lowering her HD to a d4, just so that when something does penetrate the defenses, it gets felt.
I'm very hesitant to give a d4 to a non-caster class. Ultimately, the coure still has to engage in combat one way or another, and I'm hesitant to say that the lucky hit that gets through kills her immediately, even if it's only a small difference.


Nicely done. It's a little samey as other tiny creatures, but different enough to pass. It's nice not having a mess of stuff to list. Make the changes above and I can see myself handing it over to Gorgon.

Changes made as described. Thank you for the input.

[Hyudra]

Centaur (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/editpost.php?do=editpost&p=10494644) Changes, March 5th, 2011:
Wilds Skirmisher now also grants the Centaur maximum ranks in Ride for qualifying for feats or prestige classes.
I clarified Ironshod Advance by removing mention of the Centaur's bonus attacks being attacks of opportunity. They're now simply free attacks.
Clarified Tromp and Trample flavor text.
Added to class skills (added handle animal, intimidate, use rope)
Removed 'only' from Knowledge (Nature only, Int)
Buffed Felling Shot to make it more tempting. Each iteration now bumps your crit threat range by two rather than one (ie. from /20 to /18-20 rather than just 20 to /19-20).
Clarified the one-handed vs. two handed ranged weapon for the power attack enhancement of Felling Shot.
Clarified the action type of Thin the Herd. Clarified that the additional attacks referred to as not gaining precision damage are just the ones against low health foes.
Replaced erroneous mention of flatfooted AC in Seeker's Strike with touch ac.
It's keeping the longbow. Using a longbow on a horse is nigh impossible, as the SRD notes, but the centaur is less of a 'rider with a horse's shoulders/neck/head in front of him and more of a 'tall person who runs very fast and just happens to have a horse's hindquarters'. That, and the longbow Str adjustment is useful for several abilities (power attack, thin the herd).


Drow (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=10473291#post10473291) Changes, March 5th, 2011:
Nerfed the cower option of the Drow Noble's 'attack a shaken foe' bit to make them frightened instead. Gave the 'force the enemy to make a 5' step' option a slight buff, in that the enemy can't 5' step to a square the Noble threatens.
Drow Warrior - clarified what 'sole target' means for the spell targeting. Namely, that you can only deflect spells that explicitly state "Target: one creature" (more or less) in the spell details.
Not up to messing with mage caste ability for wording, as I'm all worded out.
As for the scheme & metamagic Gorgon's begging for, I can't think of a way to do it that doesn't make things really annoying or complicated as far as metamagics that affect effective spell levels and whatnot.


Is "Coure Body" acceptable? It doesn't roll off the tongue, but Coure Eladrin Body is just incredibly bad to my ears and Coure Body I can at least say with a straight face.

Eh. I prefer Coure Eladrin Body myself, but Coure Body is clear enough to be doable.


The original creature explicitly does not receive such a penalty if it chooses to reduce its light radius to none (the "barely-shimmering outline") and actually has a racial bonus to Hide checks. I've clarified the description to make clear that you have to reduce your light radius to hide.

Yeah, my desire to see a hide penalty is due to the fact that pretty much every tiny creature emphasizes hide to a great degree, and it makes them all kind of same-ish. Phase Wasp is a winner for breaking out of that mold, really. I was hoping maybe Coure Eladrin would have something similar but different.


I'm very hesitant to give a d4 to a non-caster class. Ultimately, the coure still has to engage in combat one way or another, and I'm hesitant to say that the lucky hit that gets through kills her immediately, even if it's only a small difference.

Eh, I can see that. Thing is, though, you do have nice defensive, ranged & casting options available. I could go one way or the other on this. Maybe ask Kyuub & Gorgon to give a verdict when they review.

[NineThePuma]

Half Dragon (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10494357&postcount=1145)
Three natural attacks at first level is a bit much.
... I can get 3 natural attacks at 1st level as a kobold. Even if you optimize it, it's not awesome game breaking at level 1, and gets less so by the level.
We try to avoid giving immunities too easily, and usually couple them with a vulnerability. You're granting an immunity at first level. So... you're actually better than a red dragon? Fire immunity with no cold vulnerability. Woo.
... That's, um... Actually how the template does it. :smalleek: I'll slow it down.
2d8 damage a level for breath weapon damage really feels kinda kludgy. Every three levels. Though I see your point. My immediate response, though, is "And didn't we just go over the fact that the damage isn't that ridiculous with the sirloin?"
Draconic Legacy is a nightmare, for much the same reasons that WotC didn't give us retroactive skill point calculations for int increases. The math hurts my brain.
... That's part of the template. It just normally only applies to racial hit dice. I've rephrased it and cleaned it up slightly, though.
How do you figure? "Oh, I'm level 2. I'll increase my HP by 1 to account for last level's hit dice increasing by one." I did rephrase it though.
Generally speaking, there's a reason we've made a project of fixing Oslecamo's old stuff. It's boring. The Half Dragon you present is kinda boring too. Two class levels and you get a bunch of passive stuff and one active ability. One could forgive the shortage of active abilities, given that it's a short class, but really, first level feels painfully lacking. What are you meant to contribute to your party? Claw attacks?
... Boring? I disagree. Yes, first level is a bit lacking, but the Natural armor and natural attack routine allow you to contribute, and then second level rolls along with the breath weapon.
There's a few notable flaws - it doesn't feel half dragonish, you're superior to your draconic parents in some respects (immunities, hit die when multiclassing), strangely near-equal in others (natural armor), there's questionable balance issues (3 attacks on a full attack?) and it's just a little bit boring.
Fixed the immunity, the HD thing is part of the original template, the Natural Armor isn't likely to change any time soon, and the 3 natural attacks aren't going to break the game any worse than a Water Orc Barbarian with a great sword and power attack.



Response in green.

[Benly]

Yeah, my desire to see a hide penalty is due to the fact that pretty much every tiny creature emphasizes hide to a great degree, and it makes them all kind of same-ish. Phase Wasp is a winner for breaking out of that mold, really. I was hoping maybe Coure Eladrin would have something similar but different.
I appreciate this sentiment, but... well, the coure are used as scouts and messengers because they're tiny and good at hiding. I made them good at hiding because it's a creature that's supposed to be good at hiding - it's actually worse at it than the base creature, with its ridiculous Dex bonus and racial Hide/MS bonuses. I think the coure is a fairly distinctive creature, but ultimately it's still pretty much roguey.


Eh, I can see that. Thing is, though, you do have nice defensive, ranged & casting options available. I could go one way or the other on this. Maybe ask Kyuub & Gorgon to give a verdict when they review.
I don't think the coure has enough combat SLAs to really count it as a caster-y creature (there's Magic Missile and Sleep, and that's about it) and it's not a great candidate to multi into a caster class (not that many creatures are.) There is definitely the Tiny-longbow option, but I really feel that only casters should be stuck with d4s, because they get so much to make up for it.

[Hyudra]

Eh, makes enough sense. Well justified.

I've got my eye on the Frostwind Virago. Added it to the called list, and added Mootoall's homonculus while I was there as well.

[Lizard Lord]

Made changes to the Hooded Pupil (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10449208&postcount=711).

[mootoall]

Unbodied: Benly has all very good points. Hats off to Benly for that.
Read Thoughts shouldn't come until 3rd level or 3rd HD, whichever.
The bonus power points thing is a little unnecessary, as well as manifesting stacking when it already gets, y'know, manifesting.
I still don't like assume appearance. I know you like the in combat application, but it's just a little silly.
Also, it shouldn't change the unbodied's AC & attack bonus.
Now you see me, now you don't: okay, fine, teleporting is cool and all, but it violates one of the basic rules of this project: the need to stay relevant. Why should a level 20 unbodied bother with that when it can just use dimension door as a swift action?
Hide Mind: ...Huh. This is pretty potent. It works against true seeing, see invisibility and the like? Damn. Not sure if that's a good thing.
Also, update your text/table.
Finally, the thing is... I just don't see the unbodied using weapons/armor/fighting. It's (primarily) a giant, floating brain with incredible telepathic power. Why would you ever bother ganking someone when you can use your great mind powers to turn their brain into jelly? Beyond that, being incorporeal makes ganking people difficult.
And not only does the fluff not really seem to fit, but the mechanics as well. None of it synergizes. The various abilities a monster gets should work together, not at odds with one another. Hide Mind is great- I like what you've done with it. Assume Appearance is reasonable for disguise purposes. But the sneak attack multiclassing/touch attacks? The only attacks (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/energyRay.htm) an unbodied (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/entanglingEctoplasm.htm) should be making (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/disintegratePsionic.htm) are touch (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/fuseFlesh.htm) attacks. And that's just off the top of my head.
I like how you handled the incorporeality, though. You could reduce the power points or increase the duration, though.

Now, for an in depth response:

I agree. Benly's got some good ideas. Go him. I'm taking many of them into account for my changes.

Alright, bonus PP gone.

What I saw when I was giving them that ability was the classic "He's the bad guy!" "No! He's the bad guy! Shoot him!" "Fine, shoot both of us, it's the only way to know that we've gotten rid of him," scenario. If you're all that strongly opposed to it that means I've gotta give them another ability at that level, but that was my thought process.

Well, it's only changing AC and AB because I figure that you're actually changing your malleable shape to make it that size, making it just as easy to hit you as if you actually were that size.

I'm going to take Benly's suggestion on this one, and make it not cost anything at some amount of HD, making it the equivalent of a reserve feat.

I like it. It stays relevant, as you said.

Text/table updated.

The fact of the matter is, and I'm coming up with an ability based on this, the Unbodied originally wanted to ascend to a higher plane. There must be some reason you've stayed on the Prime Material as an Unbodied. I'd say that this is reason enough to allow it to interact with the Prime Material in ways that most incorporeal creatures don't, including being able to gank with knives. I see no reason to limit play style by forcing them to play a Beguiler-like creature.

Further, I don't know what you mean by a lack of synergy. Sure, you don't get mad-awesome combos, like the Monstrous Spider might be able to make, but it's not monk-y, where one ability actually negates the others. And they all thematically fit with an incorporeal spy.

Again, I don't want to limit playstyle by forcing the Unbodied to not interact with their environment. If they want to hold a pair of floating knives, why shouldn't I let them? Even without stacking for Sneak Attack, if you insist upon that, they should be allowed to weild weapons if they so wish. No one is telling the telepath that they aren't allowed to weild weapons.

Alright, I'll reduce the PP cost for incorporeality.

[Lord_Gareth]

Has anyone done Half-Vampire (Libris Mortis) yet? It's got potential, but the original template was kinda...unintuitive.

[Bloody Initiate]

[b]

"The Remorhaz is a medium magical beast, with a long, many-legged, segmented body, and the reach of a long creature of its size category." - reach of a long creature? This is confusing. Why not say, rather, that its bite attack is a reach weapon?

I wouldn't make it a reach weapon. It's easy to just give a specific natural weapon a higher reach. Almost all Dragons have a size-appropriate reach on their bite but a reduced reach for their claws. Making it officially "a reach weapon" requires you to add "can attack adjacent squares" when you can just say that natural weapon has 10 ft natural reach. It's not a big difference, one just takes up less space. Just make sure it can hit adjacent squares no matter how you do it and it should be fine.



I wouldn't make ending heat a free action. That doesn't make a ton of sense and it means there's no cool tricks that enemies can use against you (like flinging a teammate into the Remorhaz.) Swift?



Also there's no reason enemies can't throw your teammates into your heat. Unless otherwise stated, free actions take place on your turn. So unless you have it saying "free action and does not have to be the remorhaz's turn to..." then it has to be your turn to deactivate it, it simply doesn't take you any special time or effort.

In case that wasn't clear: Having it as a free action does not create the problem you suggest that it does.

You may still prefer it's not a free action, I just wanted to address that one concern.

[Lix Lorn]

Has anyone done Half-Vampire (Libris Mortis) yet? It's got potential, but the original template was kinda...unintuitive.
They have not.

[Psyborg]

Greenbound Creature (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10472865&postcount=920)
It's standard practice, even for the templates, to have something along the lines of "Greenbound Body", where you detail the changes to the creature's type, granted benefits, changes to natural armor and so on.It has been done. Fortification was rolled in here, and I added one thing to it: At 21HD, when they gain immunity to crits and precision damage, they retain their Moderate (50%) Fortification, and it becomes effective against anything that would normally bypass crit/precision-damage immunity.
Think of the template monster class as something of a prestige class. As such, the requirements for entry should also include some steps being taken to actually become greenbound, rather than suddenly just having it happen to you. Hmm...okay. I'll give this some thought. Any suggestions?
The class skills list is just a little long considering the relatively few skill points. Are Craft, Disguise, Profession and Use Rope that fitting?Removed Craft, Escape Artist, Intimidate, Profession, and Use Rope; added Craft (woodworking), Knowledge(nature), and Profession (horticulture). Disguise was retained for purposes of masquerading as a mundane bush, and a 1/2-HD bonus to such attempts was added to Symbiont.
Attribute Bonus: You have [monster] as opposed to Greenbound Creature.Derp. Fixed.
Symbiont:
Personally, I consider the monster entry over at the end of the changelog. So it's weird that you're referring to material way down at the bottom of the post, below another monster, even. I recommend having the list of symbionts added in a spoiler just below the Symbiont ability of the Greenbound Creature. Moved. The Symbiont comments/changelog have been placed inside the Plant Symbionts spoiler.
I like that you have the whole "they're considered the same entity, the symbiont cannot be attacked or targeted separately" and so on. It's very simple, it's elegant, it doesn't threaten to bog down gameplay or be a pain in the arse...
...Which perplexes me, because you then have it so that a resurrected creature doesn't come with the Symbiont, and you get into all these details about how to remove the symbiont, how to replace it, how the replacement affects the creature, and so on. Can I ask what the thought process was here? Like, what scenario would crop up that would have you wanting to remove your symbiont in a painful and drawn out procedure that leaves you vulnerable for a considerable period after?
In short, that whole bit feels unnecessary.It was an insufficiently-pruned remainder of an early draft of the class when it was possible (if involved) to switch your symbiont for another. As such, it's now gone for good.
Fortification and Clear mind are fine.
Weather Sense: I've personally never made a survival check to predict the weather. Seems like kind of a niche ability. However, that level isn't too cluttered, and it gets something useful with Mettle and Parallel Action, so something for flavor doesn't hurt.As mentioned above, Fortification got rolled into Greenbound Body, along with natural armor, but is mostly unchanged. Weather Sense was, indeed, completely for flavor. Does it do that well?
Parallel Action: This... I dunno. My natural instinct is to look at something that gives extra actions and go "Uh oh". But as this ability depends on the nature of the abilities the Symbionts get, I can't say until I go through those (after Greenbound Paragon).[/list]Not entirely an unexpected answer :smallamused:


Greenbound Paragon (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10472865&postcount=920)
Ditto on the skills.Ditto on the changes to them.
It seems strange that you encourage having a variety of familiar/mount/animal companions, but you actively punish (through less overall benefits/progression) having combined companions and/or mounts and/or familiars. Can you explain why?A. I didn't want a class progression that literally involves becoming part of the natural environment to hinder the advancement of abilities that, fluff-wise, are all about being close to nature and its residents.
B. Neither, however, did I want to encourage Supermount stacking- like that one Halfling Mystic Ranger/Divine Savage Bard/Prestige Paladin/Halfling Outrider build that gets a mount with the combined benefits of a Druid 29's Animal Companion and a Paladin 23's Special Mount. (Don't quote me on the exact numbers, but they're close. There are ways to add familiar [and I think psicrystal] abilities into the stacking mix as well, but they're more complicated and have a lower total level of companion abilities gained.)
C. On the other hand, the current ability is complicated. Barring any better ideas, I dropped familiar and special mount advancement entirely, and added that Greenbound levels count their full level towards your effective druid level, which should help out the Ranger companions a bit. :smallamused: They do tend to get pretty sucky by mid-levels.
Greater Symbiont/Second Symbiont - looks ok. Again, depends what the Symbiont wind up like.
Greenbound Body - Typically, 'body' abilities are the first ability you get in a particular progression through a monster class or template/prestige monster class.It's now "Greenbound Apotheosis". And yeah, I realize how truly weird it is to gain body abilities at the last level rather than the first. Given all the goodies appertaining thereunto, however, I've essentially been treating the Plant type as the capstone. Given that Greenbound Creature now has a "Greenbound Body" ability, however, this one has been renamed to "Greenbound Apotheosis", which should be less confusing to boot.
It's really, really, really weird that you're losing class features with your third level in Greenbound Paragon.
Really don't love the floating actions. I mean... it's celerity as a per encounter. Only you're not dazed as a consequence. I hesitate to use the term, but that's flat out broken, as far as raw power goes. I urge you to come up with something else as a capstone.
Symbiotic Swiftness is gone, Parallel Actions has been renamed Symbiotic Swiftness, Greenbound Apotheosis no longer loses class features, and characters with two symbionts now share a single pool of Symbiotic Swiftness uses per day between them, rather than each having their own. The floating actions are gone.

*shakes head* I don't play spellcasters enough... to me, extra actions means "one free attack" or "move and still full-attack". I completely failed to consider what that ability would do to casters, manifesters, invokers, or martial initiators. :smallfrown: Shame on me.


And since I completely forgot that Spell Compendium was off limits, and since I'm out of time for now, I'm putting off going over the symbionts till later.

Derp. :smallredface::smallredface::smallfrown:




Greenbound Symbionts (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10472865&postcount=920)
Climbing Rose:
What happens if I have a natural attack (ie. Claw) and I get thorns? I'd expect something to augment my claws, bite, gore, etc.
Ok, and again, in answer to what I said about Parallel Action - getting charm monster without using an action once a day? That's way too powerful at, say, 7HD.
Splinterbolt isn't in the SRD. We don't reference/use abilities in material a player doesn't necessarily have access to, so giving them a spell in a book a player may not necessarily own is a general no-no. Recommend either leaving it in and giving an alternate option. Such as "...either Splinterbolt (from [source]) or _____."
Since I don't know your source for many of the spells, can't review that. Same issue as splinterbolt for thorns & quill blast, though.
Nightshade:
Breath of the jungle, not in SRD or any free content.
Unrefined poison - 10 + con mod is a weaksauce DC that most enemies are going to beat without a sweat. Should be 10 + ½ HD + Con mod.
The poison damage needs to scale. See Wyvern or monstrous spider for examples of scaling.
The random ability score: maybe offer a table for a d6?
Poisonous: do they get a saving throw?
These abilities seem a lot better than what you get from Rose.
Oak:
There's established standards for DR. DR equal to ½ HD is good.
Sunflower:
The least powers really feel subpar compared to what Nightshade and Oak get. Worse than rose, even.
Lesser Powers aren't that great either, just going by what I'm familiar with. Don't know most of the spells or the sources to look 'em up.
The fast healing progression seems unwieldy. What's that meant to be for moonlight?
Moonflower:
I just hit the unspoiler button and woah, long list compared to the others. Let's see...
♪ Don't know what these spells are. ♪
Don't love vessel of the full moon's light. Too niche for my tastes.
Vessel of the Waning Moon's Inevitability. Long ability name. Shorten? It's a little weird as abilities go. I just don't know I get the flavor (suppressing healing? Why?)
Turning lycanthropes, again, sorta niche. In my last five-ish campaigns, there was only one encounter with a lycanthrope, and I don't know that it really demanded turning.
Plus turn undead & the equivalents are sorta lame. I mean, the checks you make don't scale nearly as fast as the undead (or in this case, lycanthropes) do, so you wind up with it being obsolete at mid-late levels.
Vessel of the Waxing Moon's Hope... uh, this is a better option on its own than any other two options on the list put together. DR for your party? Boosted saves? No question.
Moonfire, can't comment.

[Scio]

Hey, I'm calling the Modron. Is that okay with everyone?

[Tacitus]

Hmm... Modron as per Outsider or Modron as a Construct (or both)? They've been statted up both ways, I believe.

[Necroticplague]

If you weren't reviewed:
You're a psionic creature, and you're Kyuubi's & Gorgondantess' business until you're almost done, when I get to look over you & give the final verdict.
You didn't make changes for a previous critique
You had something on your monster that implied it wasn't yet done.

So, which of these was the Phantom? I hit a brick wall for ideas, the best I can think of is scaling the duration/times per day of Incorporeal Jaunt ( making it unlimited/at-will sometime about the level a wizard can cast etheral juant.)

[Gorgondantess]

Vivisector:
Scythe Hands should be under the body ability.
Vivisection: Hmmm... why not just say it deals double normal claw damage, but not against creatures immune to critical hits? Or something along those lines.
Just at first glance, having 3/4 BAB and some handicaps (can't listen, no fine manipulation) it should probably get some ability score bonuses.
Dissection: what kind of action is it to "study"?
"Save or Die"
Isn't it save or lose?
"dead by no longer than 1 minute."
Dead for no longer than 1 minute. There's also just a few points of awkward wording in general- I'm going to ask you to have Psyborg look over the Vivisector.
Or, better yet:
Psyborg. Vivisector. Clean up.
:smalltongue:
Appendix: Whuh? Why would anyone ever take this?
Also, might want to put a cap on organs. Just sayin'.
Feet is a little powerful compared to other abilities.
Blood: what energy type is this? Is it a ranged touch attack? Reflex save? Is it single target, line, cone?
Poison scales a little fast. Compare to, say, spider poison, or abishai poison.
Otherwise, looks pretty decent, though I'll reiterate that ability score bonuses would be good. +2 str/+2 dex goes a long way in making a race look more attractive, and it definitely wouldn't be making it too powerful.

Phase Wasp:
Clean up your table a bit. Level 1 is missing a space on the dexterity, and level 2 is missing a comma. Asking Psyborg for help is never a bad idea, either.
In fact, looking at the Phase Wasp in totality...
Psyborg. Phase Wasp. Clean up.
:smallbiggrin:
SR should be under a different ability... and really, the SR is pretty puny at that. At level 20 you're looking at 18 SR, which will be penetrated by pretty much anything.
A level 1 phase wasp has no options. Which is a problem. All you can really do is sting people... granted, you can do so better than most tiny creatures, but the point still remains. Granting magic missile at 1st level would go a long way.
Buzz song: pretty useless, for the most part, until 8 HD where it's just... a little useless. A 2nd level spell would do pretty much just as much, and for less cost: a cleric could cast bull's strength and then do other stuff, whereas Buzz Song eats up ALL the phase wasp's actions. Also, a bonus of 1/4 HD would work.
At 8 HD, it's still shutting down the phase wasp's movement if it actually wants to do anything. Though I suppose it could just latch on to a creature with killer bee... nevertheless.

Unbodied:

What I saw when I was giving them that ability was the classic "He's the bad guy!" "No! He's the bad guy! Shoot him!" "Fine, shoot both of us, it's the only way to know that we've gotten rid of him," scenario. If you're all that strongly opposed to it that means I've gotta give them another ability at that level, but that was my thought process.
But shouldn't something like disguise person be able to do something along those lines anyways, if cleverly implemented?


The fact of the matter is, and I'm coming up with an ability based on this, the Unbodied originally wanted to ascend to a higher plane. There must be some reason you've stayed on the Prime Material as an Unbodied. I'd say that this is reason enough to allow it to interact with the Prime Material in ways that most incorporeal creatures don't, including being able to gank with knives. I see no reason to limit play style by forcing them to play a Beguiler-like creature.

The unbodied are a race of former humanoids that have successfully cast off their physical bodies and now exist as pure mind.
They already have manifesting, anyways. Abandoning that would be just silly. And they have ascended to a higher plane. The ethereal plane. Which is why they are incorporeal.
Heck, it's in the name! Un Bodied. As in, no body.

Further, I don't know what you mean by a lack of synergy. Sure, you don't get mad-awesome combos, like the Monstrous Spider might be able to make, but it's not monk-y, where one ability actually negates the others. And they all thematically fit with an incorporeal spy.
Also, "spy" has nothing to do with knifing people. Infiltration, intrigue, deception... which an unbodied accomplishes through using its mind, not its body. It says so in the text:

Supreme spies, Unbodied infiltrate enemy territory, impersonate leaders, and probe enemies' minds for thoughts and plans.
This is a purely noncombatant creature we're talking about here. Nothing wrong with a niche. Many creatures in this project have a niche. Is the Marraenoloth going to be an ubercharger? Is the fire giant going to be an intrigue/stealth based character? No and no.

[Psyborg]

So I think I was going about the symbionts all wrong anyway. They were just a jumble of ideas that seemed vaguely connected to random plants, thrown together in a horrible mishmash. As of the next revision- not tonight, but whenever I get a chance to write it up in detail, they're going to get completely wiped and replaced. Here's the thought process:

Whereas, the Greenbound Creature's intended niche is as a primarily defensive prestige class, and
Whereas, the classes as given already address defenses against effects requiring a saving throw via Mettle, Clear Mind, and eventually plant type immunities, and
Whereas, there are four primary means of surviving attack-roll-based damaging effects, namely: Having A Ton Of Hit Points And/Or Damage Reduction ("the Sponge"), Healing Very Fast ("the Troll"), Not Getting Hit ("the Tiny Invisible Flying Pixie With Total Cover And Six Kinds Of Miss Chance"), and Negating Or Countering Attacks ("the Setting Sun Swordsage"), and
Whereas four is a reasonable number of symbionts to choose from,
Be it so resolved that there shall be four symbionts, one corresponding to each of these defensive stratagems.

Oak will get Damage Reduction and increased Hit Die size. Greater Power may give a little bit of hardness, I'm not sure.
Kudzu will get Fast Healing, and some sort of ability to spend an action once per turn to increase it for that round, the amount of increase depending on how big of an action was devoted to regrowth. Greater Power will give a small pool of Temp HP that refreshes every round.
Dreamlily will get Touch AC and miss chance. Greater Power will true seeing-proof and seeking arrow-proof the miss chance.
<undecided> will get Deflect Arrows, a martial counter of choice, and dispel magic (counterspell option only) as an SLA (upgrading to greater dispel magic with HD; the Greater Power will be immediate-action counterspell a few times per day.

Additionally, they'll all get speak with plants and a single appropriate active ability or SLA (yet to be chosen).

Sound better?

Edit: Phase Wasp cleanup in progress since it's short. Vivisector tomorrow.

[TheGeckoKing]

Thanks for that Gorgon. Will go fix the Vivisector right up.

[Psyborg]

Disclaimer: I'm not a council member, just a semi-useful OCD homunculus. Nothing I say is official, particularly if it's not regarding a specific grammatical error. You are under no obligation to make any of the changes I suggest, and no offense is intended by anything that follows.

Phase Wasp cleanup: Before the beginning: "Added changelog for jovoc. Here's something else" needs to be deleted. See the how-to: nothing in the post above the monster.
Before the beginning: "d6 HD" needs to go inside the spoiler. Recommend changing it to "Hit Die: d6".
...okay, on second thought, scratch the point-by-point; there's way too many little minor things. I'm going to quote it, fix it, and PM it to The Winter King ready to copy-paste in and replace his current post. Going to have to wait till tomorrow. Sorry. There was more there than it looked like and I've got to get off the computer. G'night y'all.

[Hyudra]

Goodnight Psyborg, thank you for your efforts as a useful OCD homonculus.

[Scio]

Hmm... Modron as per Outsider or Modron as a Construct (or both)? They've been statted up both ways, I believe.
As an Outsider. However, now that I look at the little buggers they seem a bit intimidating. They just seem to gain and lose abilities without rhyme or reason! :smalleek: So instead I'm thinking that the Modrons should be for later when I actually have a few monster classes done. Instead, I think I'll do a Grick.

[Hyudra]

I imagine that with the gaining and losing of abilities, the modrons would be individual creatures rather than a steady progression through the classes of modron.

[Tacitus]

Aye, evolving from a triangular prism to a cube is really damn strange. Quadrones forever! Particularly broken ones. >.>

"I think therefore I am... I think."

[Scio]

Well, yeah. But Modrons change forms when they get 'promoted'. It's sort of what they do.
Also, Nordom was definitely one of the coolest allies to ever appear in a video game, in my opinion.

EDIT: Alright, the rough draft of the Grick is finished. I think I'll do Assassin Vine next.

[Scio]

Grick
http://eberron.liors.net/images/03.03.2005/grick.jpg
Monster Class
SRD

Class:

HD: D8

{table=head]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|
Special

1st|
+0|
+2|
+2|
+0|Grick Body, Magic Tentacles, Rocky Camouflage, +1 Str.

2nd|
+1|
+3|
+3|
+0|Rubbery Hide, Drag Them Off, Ambush Predator, +1 Tentacle, +1 Dex.

3rd|
+2|
+3|
+3|
+1|Scent, Masticate, Element of Surprise, +1 Tentacle, +1 Str, +1 Dex.
[/table]

Skill Points: 2 + Int modifier per level, x4 at first level.
Class Skills: The Grick’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Climb (Str), Escape Artist (Dex), Hide (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Move Silently (Dex), Search (Int), Spot (Wis), Survival (Wis)

Proficiencies: The Grick is proficient only with its own natural weapons.

Grick Body: The Grick loses all other racial bonuses and becomes an Aberration. It gains Aberration traits, granting it Darkvision out 60 feet. Gricks are initially medium sized creatures with a base land speed of 30' and a climb speed of 20', possessing two tentacles that deal 1d4 + Str modifier damage and Natural Armor equal to their Con modifier. A Grick has Undercommon as a starting language, with additional languages for a high Int score as normal. A Grick gains an additional tentacle attack at 2nd and 3rd level.

Attribute Increase: The Grick gains +1 to Strength at levels 1 and 3, and +1 to Dexterity at levels 2 and 3 for a total increase of +2 Strength and +2 Dexterity at third level.

Magic Tentacles(Su.): A Grick's tentacles have an enhancement bonus equal to its HD/4.

Tentacle Hands(Ex.): While a Grick has no real limbs to speak of, it can use it's tentacles as primitive manipulators. These cannot perform any task more complicated than turning a doorknob.

Rocky Camouflage(Ex.): At level, first Grick has a bonus on Hide checks equal to 1/2 it's HD while underground or on stony terrain. In addition, a Grick can use the Hide skill even when it does not have cover or concealment, but only while underground or on stony terrain.

Rubbery Hide(Ex.): At 2nd level, Grick gains DR/- equal to ½ its HD.

Drag Them Off(Ex.): From 2nd level onwards, the Grick can move up to half its base land speed or climb speed, regardless of whether it is encumbered, grappling or masticating a foe. It doesn't need to make an opposed move check to move while grappling/masticating.

Scent(Ex.): At 3rd level, a Grick gains scent, as the monster ability. A Grick is automatically aware of any nonmagical conditions affecting a creature within range of it's scent.This extraordinary ability lets a creature detect approaching enemies, sniff out hidden foes, and track by sense of smell.

A creature with the scent ability can detect opponents by sense of smell, generally within 30 feet. If the opponent is upwind, the range is 60 feet. If it is downwind, the range is 15 feet. Strong scents, such as smoke or rotting garbage, can be detected at twice the ranges noted above. Overpowering scents, such as skunk musk or troglodyte stench, can be detected at three times these ranges.

The creature detects another creature’s presence but not its specific location. Noting the direction of the scent is a move action. If it moves within 5 feet of the scent’s source, the creature can pinpoint that source.

A creature with the Track feat and the scent ability can follow tracks by smell, making a Wisdom check to find or follow a track. The typical DC for a fresh trail is 10. The DC increases or decreases depending on how strong the quarry’s odor is, the number of creatures, and the age of the trail. For each hour that the trail is cold, the DC increases by 2. The ability otherwise follows the rules for the Track feat. Creatures tracking by scent ignore the effects of surface conditions and poor visibility.

Creatures with the scent ability can identify familiar odors just as humans do familiar sights.

Water, particularly running water, ruins a trail for air-breathing creatures. Water-breathing creatures that have the scent ability, however, can use it in the water easily.

False, powerful odors can easily mask other scents. The presence of such an odor completely spoils the ability to properly detect or identify creatures, and the base Survival DC to track becomes 20 rather than 10.

Masticate(Ex.): The Grick gains a bite attack. Further, it gains a special improved grab when attacking with just its bite. This doesn't lead into a grapple attack the foe, however, but segues into a Masticate attack, which is like grapple except the Grick chooses either Strength or Dexterity: It and its opponent each make opposed checks using that attribute instead of grapple checks. Further, any time the Grick delivers a bite attack as part of the Masticate attack (that is, in place of the typical unarmed strike), the Grick heals itself for the same amount.

Ambush Predator(Ex.): At 2nd level, Grick takes no penalty to Hide and Move Silently for moving at full speed. Additionally, a Grick gains a bonus equal to half it's HD on grapple checks, but only if the Grick's opponent is flatfooted

Element of Surprise(Ex.): The Grick always acts in a surprise round and gains a bonus to initiative checks equal to its Dexterity mod (in addition to that which is already applied). At 12HD, if there wouldn't be a surprise round, there is one anyways, during which only the Grick may act.

Comments

So yeah, this is the Grick. I'm thinking of having it get a new tentacle for each level in the Grick class instead of getting all of them at once. The weapon proficiencies thing is so it can still use weapons without causing as many balance issues. The reason it doesn't have a bite attack is because it's supposed to have a really weak jaw. Frankly, my biggest problem is the fact that it has almost no active abilities at all. I just can't The Grick gains proficiency with its natural weapons.seem to think of anything.


Changelog

March 7th, ~10:00

Class Written
March 7th, ~3:00

Removed ability to hide in plain sight
Made Tentacle Hands it's own ability instead of lumping it in with Grick Body
Clarified how size factors in to the Chow Down ability
Changed the Grick from four levels long to three
March 7th, ~4:00
Proofreading
March 23rd, ~5:00
Copypasted Hyudra's improved abilities and such
Added Hyudra's suggestions(see this post) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10563054&postcount=1304)

[Frog Dragon]

Response in green.
Kobolds get 3 natural attacks yes... at a glorious -4 strength, requiring more investment to overcome.

[Bloody Initiate]

Kobolds get 3 natural attacks yes... at a glorious -4 strength, requiring more investment to overcome.

At level 1 it really doesn't make a big difference whether you have 3 attacks or 1.

Generally more attacks = weaker damage per attack and decreased attack bonus, so your greater chance of hitting from rolling more times ends up being as effective or less effective than the dude with the two-handed sword who tends to kill things in one hit.

Also, what's so bad about having a full round action that matters at level 1? As it is, most people have 1 attack at level 1 so they don't really care about tactics or anything because their standard action attack is as impressive as their full attack. Standing still and attacking is the exact same as moving to someone and attacking.

Insert dude with multiple natural weapons who suffers large penalties for using them all and probably has a small die size for damage on all of them as well.

Yes a large number of natural attacks can eventually become a handy and effective routine of violence, but last I looked Multi-Attack had a BAB requirement > 1, so eating a -5 for subsequent attacks is crippling to the point of near-irrelevance at level 1. I'm watching it in my current D&D group, the Totemist WILL be really cool one day but for the moment she mostly has a bunch of 1d4 claw attacks that rarely hit and rarely exceed 10 damage (This is level 4).

At level 1, 3 natural attacks is just OK, and unless they're all the same type (3 slams, for example) then you take a vicious -5 to attack for each after the first.


Grick


-The class should be 3 levels long because the original Grick is CR 3.
-Perhaps start with two tentacles then upgrade to four, or start with the bite and gain the tentacles later? Honestly the Grick's attack routine is lame no matter what. Roll four times to roll... d4s? Yuck. Perhaps you've done the best thing, giving it four at level 1. It gains a meaningful full attack to make up for the pain of rolling d4s (Can you tell I don't like d4s?)
-Does "Magic Tentacles" mean they overcome damage reduction as if they were magical or just that they can be enchanted? I was going to say you should hold off and give this at a later level, but the attack routine IS lame and counting as magic is a mercy.
-Proficiencies should be separate from the "Grick Body" feature. They should be under a heading of their own just like every other base class.
-Rocky Camouflage's hide bonus seems kinda high
-Gaining Hide in Plain Sight at level 1 is actually pretty insane, especially as part of another class feature. I've had Hide in Plain Sight at an extremely low level, and it ends up working like a greater invisibility that's active about half the time. Furthermore, Hide in Plain Sight seems weird on an ambush creature, but that's just my opinion.
-Chow Down needs some clarification. Is the corpse gone afterward? If so, why have a damage value? Does it take longer to eat larger opponents? CAN you eat larger opponents? It is also slightly crazy that the Grick can consume a body in 6 seconds.
-Ambush Predator is a neat ability that has nothing to do with ambushing. Perhaps give the Grick perception bonuses of some kind instead?
-Element of Surprise: So the grick is never surprised? Never flat-footed? In a surprise round it's likely you're unaware of your assailants, so how can you act if you are not aware of anything? This comes with no perception bonus or anything, so "always acting in the surprise round" means next to nothing.

[Scio]

Responses in green.



-The class should be 3 levels long because the original Grick is CR 3.

Seriously? Ugh, why does this always happen?

-Perhaps start with two tentacles then upgrade to four, or start with the bite and gain the tentacles later? Honestly the Grick's attack routine is lame no matter what. Roll four times to roll... d4s? Yuck. Perhaps you've done the best thing, giving it four at level 1. It gains a meaningful full attack to make up for the pain of rolling d4s (Can you tell I don't like d4s?)

Well, D4's do suck, but the point of Magic Tentacles is so you can get something like shocking or flaming.

-Does "Magic Tentacles" mean they overcome damage reduction as if they were magical or just that they can be enchanted? I was going to say you should hold off and give this at a later level, but the attack routine IS lame and counting as magic is a mercy.

It's supposed to mean that they can be enchanted as if they were magic weapons. I'll make sure to clarify.

-Proficiencies should be separate from the "Grick Body" feature. They should be under a heading of their own just like every other base class.

Eh, ok.

-Rocky Camouflage's hide bonus seems kinda high

Well, the original monster has a +8 bonus, and 8/4=2 (I was using 3.0 again:smallfrown:), so I thought that it should scale.

-Gaining Hide in Plain Sight at level 1 is actually pretty insane, especially as part of another class feature. I've had Hide in Plain Sight at an extremely low level, and it ends up working like a greater invisibility that's active about half the time. Furthermore, Hide in Plain Sight seems weird on an ambush creature, but that's just my opinion.

Ok, I'll make sure to change it to just hiding,

-Chow Down needs some clarification. Is the corpse gone afterward? If so, why have a damage value? Does it take longer to eat larger opponents? CAN you eat larger opponents? It is also slightly crazy that the Grick can consume a body in 6 seconds.

Okay, I'll make sure to clarify. And honestly, it just that it doesn't work well gameplay-wise to take more than six seconds either. Though I guess it could represent the Grick flipping out and shoving as much meat in it's face as possible. also, the reason that it still has a damage value is because it can also be used on unconscious or disabled opponents, so it's sort of like a coup de grace lite.

-Ambush Predator is a neat ability that has nothing to do with ambushing. Perhaps give the Grick perception bonuses of some kind instead?

What's a perception bonus? I assume you are talking about spot and listen bonuses, but I'm not sure. And yes, that name makes no sense but I just really liked the name and couldn't think of any abilities to go with it

-Element of Surprise: So the grick is never surprised? Never flat-footed? In a surprise round it's likely you're unaware of your assailants, so how can you act if you are not aware of anything? This comes with no perception bonus or anything, so "always acting in the surprise round" means next to nothing.

Eh, I dunno. You're probably right. I mean, it could be changed to always going first in a surprise round, like the Dread Fang of Lolth, but that just seems broken.

[Psyborg]

Holding off on a full proofread of Grick until it's mostly-finished, but I would like to compliment Scio: in terms of spelling, punctuation, and general formatting consistency, that is the single most polished initial post I've seen since I've been proofreading. Good work.

Two tiny things that did jump out at me: "HD: D#" needs the # replaced with the die size, and the "it's" in Proficiencies ought to be "its". (Seems like that one gets everyone sooner or later. *chuckle*)

As an FYI, I'm about to fix the Phase Wasp and send it to The Winter King.

[ScionoftheVoid]

Though it's not actually on the list, my younger brother has wanted to play a Gargoyle for some time, and since his character just died (to spiders) he's going to start using my version of the monster class (starting at level one, tommorow). I'll try to let you know how it goes.

[Psyborg]

Phase Wasp clean-up complete and PM'd to The Winter King for copy/paste into original post.

Question: What's the best way to handle the changelog when I'm editing other people's monsters? I added the following to the Phase Wasp's:3/7: Proofread by Psyborg. Spelling, grammar, punctuation, and formatting corrected. In addition, the following non-trivial changes were made: Attribute Bonus was missing entirely, and was added.
Phase Powers: "...the number of missiles are not limited by Caster Level." changed to "the number of missiles is not capped.", which seemed to be the intended meaning. (The other possibility is that the number of missiles is not dependent on Caster Level, in which case the number of missiles would need to be specified.)
Phase Powers: The reduction in the delay time for Magic Missile was rewritten for clarity, and a minimum one-round delay was added to line up with perceived intent.
Significant portions of Buzz Song were rewritten for clarity. Since the perceived intent was to stack fully where Bardic Music was concerned, Phase Wasp levels now stack with Bard levels for determining the effectiveness of BM abilities, as well as access to new BM abilities and BM uses per day.Does that seem acceptable?

Thanks,

Psy

[Necroticplague]

Which would be a better limit on incorporeability, duration or use/day or maybe even use/rest? One one hand, duration is a softer cap, giving a person more flexibility to when they spend their time, while also making it easier to define.On the other hand, use/day or use/rest limits provide an avenue for those who want to stick with incorporeability extensively, while punishing those who want to switch between the two (which you have to, since all your equipment drops to the ground when you turn incorporeal).

[Zemro]

In an effort to conserve space, I'll omit a reply on any points that I have no comment on other than noting their completion.


Formatting throws me for a loop. I can't complain, exactly - the ability score increases having their own column is nice and tidy - but it does go against convention and takes getting used to.
Well, that is commented on every time I put a creature out, but it's yet to be a deal breaker. It's kind of a personality quirk, to be honest, just having ability bonuses grouped in with the other abilities bugs me. Since it's a reoccurring thing I always feel better being able to easy discerns ability bonus types and placements at a glance. Perhaps an interesting thought for others to use as convention? I honestly believe it makes the entries much nicer to look at. Either way, so long as it's not a deal breaker or too much of a problem, I'd like to keep it this way at least for my monsters. I can live with it on others, but it feels wrong to do something that would end up bugging me every time I looked at something I created.


Five rounds is long enough to not matter. Shorten to three? Or even two?
I mainly added that because the original creature's ability didn't have an off trigger. I choose five rounds because it was a round enough number, and was indeed long enough to not really matter. I wanted to avoid a nebulous term such as 'while in combat' and preserve that always on sort of flavour while giving it a sort of out for the player if they don't want it active for some weird reason.


"A Justice Archon always knows the general direction and distance" - elaborate? Like, maybe state the Justice Archon is aware the target is north, east, south, west, northeast, from her current position, and either 'close, not far, far or distant' from her?

Alright, this took a bit of thinking and I'm not completely happy with the new wording but I think this should be a step forward.


"The target does not benefit from magical concealment or invisibility against the Archon, and cannot evade her sight with a hide check." - I don't know that I like this. Shuts down a lot of monsters.
"The target still befits from cover's other bonuses" - reword to 'from the other bonuses of cover.'

Alright, I've altered the functionality of this ability, hopefully toning it down to something more reasonable.


Harry - The immediate action move is a little much, even without the bonus attack. It just doesn't require any meaningful strategy or consideration of what actions to use on the Archon's part.

Well, it does still provoke attacks of opportunity so if you're fighting multiple opponents it's something to watch out for. But I get what you're saying. I do have some thematically similar alternatives in mind, that accomplish the same sort of thing just perhaps in a better manner. So, perhaps one of these potential changes would be a step in the right direction?
Give the Archon a sort of pseudo reach in regards to her quarry, like +5ft for example. If the target takes an action that provokes within that radius she spends an immediate action to take a 5ft step and then make the AoO.
Function it as more of a passive control, simply disallowing the quarry from taking 5ft steps while within her reach.
Make both Shared Fate and Pursuit immediate actions. Essentially making it more of a tactical choice since choosing one denies you the ability to use the others.


Shared Fate - A little too easy to use, again, considering the sheer magnitude of the benefit. Needs to be toned down, needs more effort on the Archon's part or needs a way for the offending caster to get around it.

I have an idea there, which I had initially disregarded because I thought it too complicated at the time. However, I've thought of a better way of phrasing it, so tell me what you think:
"When an Archon is affected by an effect that requires a save she may take an immediate action to force the effect's user to make the same type of save (DC 10 + HD/2 + Cha Mod). Their fate against the abilities effects is shared, so long as one of them passes their save both are considered to have passed their save. If both fail they each take the normal effects of failure, even if they would normally not be subject to it."
Making it an immediate action would also provide more of an opportunity cost, but being an immediate action in addition to the above would seem a bit too tame to me (I could just not be thinking about it correctly though).



Teleport six times a day at 6th level? It's a 5th level spell that you, by all rights, would be accessing at 10th. I would suggest, instead, a Dimension Door effect with a severely curtailed field of effect (any location you can see within 10' per HD) and number of uses a day (½ HD?). As you gain HD, remove the 'any location you can see' limiter, and increase the distance appropriately (ie. something like 50 + 10' per HD, then 100' +10' per HD, etc.).

Ninth level, but yeah, I see what you mean there, that's a bit of a total brain fart on my part. I also realized I made it straight up teleport, typically these abilities only carry the user. I've made it personal only and halved the uses which should curtail things considerably I think, as compared to originally.


Overall, I like it more than I thought I would before starting the review.

That's good to hear, I think, since being better is easy if your first impression was none to favourable.

Can I ask what didn't sit well with you initially and what changed your mind?


That said, some power level issues (several abilities too effective given how easy they are to pull off/use) and general grammar issues crop up. I encourage you to use Psyborg's review service to get your grammar/spelling polished where necessary.
I definitely will be, I had planned on doing so sooner but held off since you mentioned you were doing a batch critique. I felt it would be poor manners to end up doing a bunch of changes to the class while you were in the process of looking at and messing up the critique.

Here's the change log entries for convenience:

March 6th
Added Knowledge (Religion) as a class skill.
Further clarified which attacks are available to substitute in for Justice Strike's damage.
Smoothed out wording for Aura of Menace and made a spelling correction.
Clarified the level gained in Aligned Strike's ability text.
Minor wording corrections to Archon's wards.
Spelling corrections made to Quarry.
Clarified Quarry's duration and what counts for witnessing a crime.
The shaken effect for Aura of Menace and Quarry targets clarified.
Aura of Protection's benefits clarified.
March 7th
Reworked Quarry's base benefits.
Toned Shared Fate down by making it less absolute.
Halved uses per day on Warp, and made it self only.

[Hyudra]

Overall, I like it more than I thought I would before starting the review.
That's good to hear, I think, since being better is easy if your first impression was none to favourable.

Can I ask what didn't sit well with you initially and what changed your mind?

Ah, more or less the fact that it was an archon and I tend to find such pretty boring flavorwise.

[Saidoro]

Razor Boar:

Yes. It's still more. Oh yes, choosing between 1d8 slashing damage and 1d8 bludgeoning damage, great choice there. Now compare it to an actual PC class.

Rename the ability. Call it something else (bloodscent? Hungry like the boar?), say it gains the scent ability (linked to the actual ability in the SRD) AND (insert additional text here). Done.

I'd break it out by level as opposed to HD. So when it gains new defenses should be based on level? Or did you mean the whole thing?

Then make an opposed strength check modified by size? That's pretty much what it is. Yes, the Boar is badass, but that doesn't mean nothing else is as well. I'd say something like a lizardfolk barbarian of equivalent level and heroic array should be able to hack at the boar pretty well while doing that. I'm not saying you HAVE to, I'm saying it would add to verisimilitude and be pretty cool... especially for a DM using the razor boar against their players, which, you have to admit, is going to happen just as much as actual razor boar players ('cept maybe in the case of cohorts). I think most DMs would just use the monster, not the class. Still, I guess I can add something in.

What about a brain lock, which halts all actions physical and mental? You need to include this stuff in the ability description. I'll make a list.

You could swing it at 1st level. I think an ideal situation would be to switch it with surge of force and give it this ability, but for all combat options (overrun, grapple, etc.) at first level. It doesn't GIVE it any combat options, but it WOULD make normally less than desirable combat options much more viable. Alright, moving this to first and rearranging other abilities slightly.



Chuul (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10414321&postcount=585)
No first round constrict is a good add. It gives the enemy a chance, at least. Excellent.
Bonus damage on lurking predator is ok, but should specify what sort of damage it is. Okay.
"A number of times per day equal to to one third its HD..." - reword to "Once a day for every three HD it has..." Okay.
How many times a day can the Chuul use madness? A PBAoE SoL is pretty daunting. I'll add a limit.
"One of the chuul's claws grows to monstrous size, dealing damage as though the chuul was two size categories larger and is treated as a two-handed weapon for the purposes of calculating damage bonuses" - so your claw then, at seventh level, deals 4d6 + 1.5x Str damage, with improved grab, constrict and throw. Ok, I could live with that. The stun, though, is a bit much to tack onto something you're going to be doing a great deal otherwise. Hide checks are fine. Would shortening the duration be fine? Or is it just too much altogether?
At least 10 characters.

[The Winter King]

Phase wasp updated by Psyborg. My thanks to him for doing that it was helpful. Also added a few more class skills: know( architecture, geography, nature) and perform.

[Zemro]

In interest in contributing to the advancement of monster classes other than my own, I'm looking to give comments on other as-yet-unfinished classes.

However, in order to make sure I'm reviewing a monsters that's being actively worked on, I'll only do it for the next six to request such. I won't do any classes longer than eight levels, though, as I'm not so confident at my abilities there. I'm not a big fan of the one and two level classes either (and some of the three) so people in that range might find better comment from another source as well.

[Hyudra]

If that's the case, Zemro, I would very much appreciate a review of my Centaur.

Edit:
Stone Giant (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8589236#post8589236) Changes, March 2nd, 2011:
Replaced old image, as the previous image was scanned poorly and had the vague shadows of text from the opposite page showing through it.
Fling and Inexorable Momentum changed places, for more active ability & fun earlier on.
Wording changed throughout, format altered to meet current standards.
Removed Stonecanny, which gave the ability to hide in plain sight in stony areas, and gave the Stone Giant the ability to initiate grapples through walls/cover.
Gave the giant more skills that fit.
Changelog fixed from ugly & inverse-order jumble of text to the tidy list you see here.

[Bloody Initiate]

If that's the case, Zemro, I would very much appreciate a review of my Centaur.


Since the thread is over forty pages long...

I know the post wasn't addressed to me or anything, but if he's offering to do reviews I know I personally would have a much better idea of which page my work was located on than anyone I mentioned it to, and could therefore direct them better than they could stumble about.

I find the lack of links generally disorienting, since most of the creatures are several pages back and the official preference is that people edit their original posts rather than post new versions. You are obviously aware of this as you tend to link things, just thought maybe this one had slipped your mind.

[Zemro]

Since the thread is over thirty pages long...

I know the post wasn't addressed to me or anything, but if he's offering to do reviews I know I personally would have a much better idea of which page my work was located on than anyone I mentioned it to, and could therefore direct them better than they could stumble about.

I find the lack of links generally disorienting, since most of the creatures are several pages back and the official preference is that people edit their original posts rather than post new versions. You are obviously aware of this as you tend to link things, just thought maybe this one had slipped your mind.

Like the links in unfinished monster section of the thread's first post?

It's certainly easy enough to pop that open and then call up whatever monster I need to look at.

[Bloody Initiate]

I'll admit to not thinking of that :smallredface:.

Originally I was gonna post stuff about internet speeds, but decided it's mostly irrelevant. It was also getting surprisingly technical and sidetracked.

[NineThePuma]

I would appreciate a look at Half Dragon.

Including possible suggestions.

[Bloody Initiate]

Half-Dragon:

-You went the brawler route, but didn't make brawling any more interesting
-The best part is obviously the breath weapon. Getting 2d8 per 3 HD is neat, but why the "per encounter" business AND the recharge? Pick one, because having both is redundant and irrelevant. Your recharge and per encounter will cancel each other out, because you won't recharge in time to use up your per encounter uses.
-Still on the breath weapon: I think some math here could do wonders. You'll be doing 12d8 by level 18, so why not set it up so it starts a bit stronger and ends up in roughly the same place? For example, make it "3d8 + 1d8 for every 2 HD you possess." That makes the progression less jerky (jumping up 2d8 every three levels is kinda odd), starts strong, and ends up in about the same place.
-Getting the dragon type is cool... or at least I think that's what happens. You "gain dragon traits," but do you actually gain the dragon type? Please clarify.
-You went the base class route, this has its own ups and downs, but leaves me wondering "what's the other half?" I think I probably would've made this a prestige class with extremely easy requirements, but maybe that messes with the guidelines (I haven't looked into the prestige class stuff)
-What's the +1 charisma for? +1 strength sounds more like something that class will use, and even if it didn't +1 charisma wouldn't be my choice. I'd rather have another +1 con or +1 int. None of the class features use charisma. I get that dragons have good charisma, but I'm not seeing the place for it here.

Suggestions:

If you're going the route of customization you may as well go a little further with it. Your class picks their parent but it's the same old list. Why not grab some of the sweet breath weapons from other OGL dragons and stat them out to save the DM and the player the trouble? Example: Of course Force is way cooler than Fire, but typically has lower die sizes. Why not do that leg work so you create a balanced and customizable product?

Aside from the breath weapon, there's not much there. The increased hp die size is neat, but it feels like a save boost would be more useful.

Speaking of saves, why not give it two good saves and allow the parent you pick to determine which is the other? Even if you don't have the parent factor in, just a good fort save feels pretty lame. I know we aren't supposed to use the racial stats (Perfect saves and BAB for dragons and outsiders), but for a 2 level class does it have to be such a significant downgrade? You could easily give this guy d12 HD and a good will or reflex and he'd be fine.

I said you didn't give a lot to make brawling interesting, but unfortunately my own imagination isn't coming up with much more than yours did. Perhaps a tail attack that lets you trip as a free action on a hit? It's not much of an idea, but this is just two levels of stat boosting. Even a bonus meta-breath feat would be OK.

IIRC this class took you about an hour to make, and it feels like it. The breath weapon is neat for second level, but first level is pretty bland and needs some love. Also consider dropping the action required to use the breath weapon to swift once you have enough HD, that way it doesn't interfere with the brawling.

[NineThePuma]

The only other OGL dragons are Prismatic/Radiant and Force.

Seriously.

And... Actually, I'd follow the rules for the half dragon. Which would make the Force Dragon ridiculous.

[Bloody Initiate]

Why would you follow old rules for the template AND make a new custom class? Your Half-Dragon didn't hide +8 strength somewhere I didn't see did it?

[NineThePuma]

... *sighs*

'Half-Dragon' has rules in Races of the Dragon for types beyond those in core. 'Half-Force Dragon' would be broken there too.

And I'd have to do a lot with the skills and stuff, some of it from scratch. And find a way to emulate 'Force Resistance' and freedom of movement effects.

[Bloody Initiate]

And I'd have to do a lot with the skills and stuff, some of it from scratch. And find a way to emulate 'Force Resistance' and freedom of movement effects.

Then don't make half-force dragons. It wasn't my only critique.

[NineThePuma]

I know. I'm only addressing that specific point right this second.

[Hyudra]

There seems to be some confusion over the matter of OGL vs. non-OGL material. Some people, bewildered, ask "Why does that matter if we're breaking the rules by using the monsters in the first place?" and such, as well as Bloody Initiate making a suggestion: "grab some of the sweet breath weapons from other OGL dragons".

Really, there's two rules you should be following as far as referring to copyrighted materials:
Don't copy, word for word, text from copyrighted material. I do believe that's against the forum rules anyways. Besides that, and besides the legality issues, it's lazy and not necessary (especially for monster abilities). Further, don't copy that same text and change the wording so it looks original.

.
Don't expect players to have access to a given sourcebook. If you're telling players that they gain a spell or feat from page 113 of It's Cold Outside and they don't have that splatbook, they can't make effective use of your work.

That's about as far as it goes.

Adding bonus options based on dragons in copyrighted material for the half dragon would be a perfectly fine option, provided those options were original work. If one was copying abilities from said dragons to give the half dragon some options, that would be problematic.

[Bloody Initiate]

I know. I'm only addressing that specific point right this second.

Well then maybe I can express my concern another way:

Everything with Spell Resistance has a Level Adjustment, right? I'm not 100% sure, but even if it's not everything I'm pretty sure it's most things.

This is because spell resistance was viewed as being significantly powerful enough to justify a high cost to get it. The same is true of spontaneous casting, to use another example.

The similarity between both is that they aren't as good as WotC thought.

So I look at the Half Dragon template and realize that the breath weapon is part of the LA, but it's not really worth the LA.

I look at your class and I see the same breath weapon (Yours is nicer for sure, but it's still a stock breath weapon) costing me a second level of a class without really giving me any options I couldn't get elsewhere. Breath weapons are cool and all, but they take a standard action and usually aren't worth using unless they do something in addition to damage. Although they're a nice ace-up-the-sleeve against swarms or enemies vulnerable to your energy type, those are both specific circumstances.

Your class's breath weapon is... neat, it'll average about 52 points of damage at level 18 if they fail their save, but I get the feeling that by that time - and much of the time before - you'll have something better to do with your standard action.

So is it so strange someone might want an option to make the damage harder to resist/effective against incorporeal targets, or that a status affect would make me smile?

As far as I know breath weapons don't stack, so you tend to want the single one you get from that single source to be worth something. More damage is certainly cool, but not creative or difficult to create.

Of course you can always grab the Entangling Exhalation feat, and that's pretty sweet, so maybe my concerns are irrelevant. Perhaps I'm just dragon'd out, and all the dragon stuff looks the same anymore.

[Hyudra]

Front Page (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=10122995#post10122995) Changes, March 08, 2011:
Added the following question and answer into the FAQ, to address some persistent confusion over copyrighted material:
What are the rules on using copyrighted material?

The hard & fast rule (for here & elsewhere) is that you can base your monster classes on material from original sources. You can't copy text directly from copyrighted material. OGL stuff (Stuff found in the SRD or posted by WotC online) is kosher. Anything else is probably not. When in doubt, ask in the thread.

More generally, for this project, don't write up your monster in a way that would demand a player to have a specific sourcebook. If your monster gives a feat or spell that is found on page 113 of It's Cold Outside, and the player doesn't have that book, the player can't use your monster. This is annoying and bad. That leaves two solid options:
Don't do it. Come up with an original ability or a replacement ability that holds to the spirit of that particular spell, feat or ability.
Offer an equal and fair alternative. Something along the lines of "You gain X spell from Y sourcebook or you gain the following ability, described below."
Don't expect, either, for a player to have the sourcebook with the monster you want to play.
Added Grick (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=10509720#post10509720) to unfinished monsters list.

[Psyborg]

Vivisector proofread, cleaned up, and PMd to TheGeckoKing.

Justice Archon...we'll see if I can get it done in the next half-hour.

The remaining two Greenbound symbionts and the promised casting-advancement tables (for a little less math and confusion when going into Sorcerer after levels in Dragon or something else with "virtual Sorcerer levels") are probably going to have to wait for next week, though I might have a shot at the Symbionts over the weekend.

[Hyudra]

Thanks for your efforts, Psyborg.

As for myself, at present, I'm just proofreading/updating my old monsters and plugging away at the Frostwind Virago.

[Necroticplague]

Added a duration to Phantom (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10461724&postcount=881)'s Incorporeal Juant so Incorporeal Movement is relevant for longer. Also specified that their equipment doesn't turn incorporeal with them (left out basic clothing so there's some room to fluff without mechanics).

[Psyborg]

Justice Archon is mostly done. Finished tomorrow, I promise. G'night, y'all.

-Psy

[Makiru]

Hi. Not dead yet. Been putting off the garngrath for a while now, but I just recently got it up to the halfway finished point. If I keep at that pace, I may have it up by the end of the week so everybody can ignore it over spring break. :smalltongue:

[Psyborg]

Justice Archon proofread completed and PM'd to Zemro Shivic. That clears my backlog. Sorry for the delay with that and the Vivisector (not to mention my own sorely-in-need-of-updating Greenbound Creature...); things are a little crazy with midterms week.

-Psy

[Zemro]

Justice Archon has been updated, and I'm working on a critique of the Centaur and maybe one for Half-Dragon. There'll probably be more of the same on the latter, but there are some things that I quite like about the class that usually bug me with other two level monsters. So, hopefully, I can provide some good constructive comments there.

My home computer's effectively gone out of commission so it might take a little bit as my Internet access is, more or less, reduced to school hours only.

[Hyudra]

No need to go crazy guys, geez. I mean, going out of your way to do monster class stuff in the middle of midterms? It's appreciated, but nobody's demanding that of you. Feel free to say, like, "I'm going to take a bit of a break while I deal with priority stuff." Ditto if you're struggling with computer issues & limited PC time.

Frostwind Virago is done, roughly. I've made enough revisions, though, that she feels a little rough around the edges and I may have missed stuff. I'm going to wait until Drow or Centaur pass muster before posting her, since I need to write up more details on her powers anyways.

[Psyborg]

Nah, midterms are over now (my three classes are hovering around a high A, a low A, and a low B, so I'm fairly happy). And if you think I can study all day, then I've got some beachfront property in Montana to sell you. :smalltongue: Should anything seriously interfere, then yeah, I'll totally take a break (like when finals week rolls around). But so far, no problems have been caused.

Regardless: what monsters need proofreading next? I get antsy without any work to do *chuckle*, and proofreading is easier to do in bits and pieces when I have the chance than working on my own projects.

-Psy

[Gorgondantess]

Razor Boar:

Oh yes, choosing between 1d8 slashing damage and 1d8 bludgeoning damage, great choice there. Now compare it to an actual PC class.
No, actually, choosing between sword n' board, two hander, TWF, exotic weapons, reach weapons, ranged weapons... etc.
Compare it to an actual PC class? Okay, how about warblade. You have the option to attack 2 enemies at once with steel wind, or make them flat footed with sapphire nightmare blade, or bull rush them with charging minotaur, or just attack them to restore maneuvers, and you have access to all the above options+ because you have weapon aptitude to allow you to swap out exotic weapon feats. Then you also have the option of taking -2 to AC to add damage to your attacks. Oh, and you also have ranks in tumble, so you have more maneuverability options for stuff like charges and placement.


So when it gains new defenses should be based on level? Or did you mean the whole thing?
As in at 3rd level it gets DR, at 6th level it gets SR, and at 9th level it gets ER.


I think most DMs would just use the monster, not the class. Still, I guess I can add something in.
Tell me when you do so.


I'll make a list.
Looks good.


Alright, moving this to first and rearranging other abilities slightly.
Okay, okay... Hmm... Well, as is I think it's passable to add to the list. Subjectively it's not perfect (as I've detailed above), but objectively it's A-OK.

Gargoyle:
Have you finished responding to my review? If so, can I have a link? I can't find it. If not, please PM me when you do so so we can finally get this thing on the list.:smallbiggrin:

Drow:

As for the scheme & metamagic Gorgon's begging for, I can't think of a way to do it that doesn't make things really annoying or complicated as far as metamagics that affect effective spell levels and whatnot.
Eh wot? I did say that it should be allowed for spontaneous casting. Where it wouldn't make a mess at all. No, for prepared casting it's quite useless and shouldn't be allowed, I'll agree on that.

Not up to messing with mage caste ability for wording, as I'm all worded out.
Well, once you do so tell me, as that's the last thing that's problematic.

Centaur: At a glance it's looking okay, but I have a few more nits to pick at the moment. I'll get to it in a few hours.

[Makiru]

I just had my midterms, that's why I can kinda go crazy right now. Also, I called this thing nearly five months ago, I feel its time that I delivered the goods.

BTW, finished up to lvl. 15 at this point. Wording custom abilities always gives me some pause.

[Psyborg]

Casting Advancement Tables
These tables are meant for those taking levels in Sorcerer (possibly including prestige classes that advance Sorcerer spellcasting) after taking levels in a class that grants casting progression as a bard and "virtual sorcerer levels" upon multiclassing. The first set of columns are spells per day; the second set are spells known.

Monster Class Level: 19 (Virtual Sorcerer Level 13)
{table=head] Sorcerer Levels | 0 | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 0 | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9
0 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 4 | - | - | - | 6 | 5 | 5 | 5 | 5 | 4 | 4 | - | - | -
1 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 5 | 3 | - | - | 6 | 5 | 5 | 5 | 5 | 4 | 4 | 1 | - | -[/table]

Monster Class Level: 18 (Virtual Sorcerer Level 13)
{table=head] Sorcerer Levels | 0 | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 0 | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9
0 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 3 | 2 | - | - | - | 6 | 5 | 5 | 5 | 4 | 4 | 3 | - | - | -
1 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 3 | 4 | 3 | - | - | 6 | 5 | 5 | 5 | 4 | 4 | 3 | 1 | - | -
2 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 5 | 4 | - | - | 6 | 5 | 5 | 5 | 4 | 5 | 4 | 2 | - | -
[/table]

Monster Class Level: 17 (Virtual Sorcerer Level 12)
{table=head] Sorcerer Levels | 0 | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 0 | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9
0 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 3 | 3 | 1 | - | - | - | 6 | 5 | 5 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 3 | - | - | -
1 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 3 | 4 | 2 | - | - | - | 6 | 5 | 5 | 4 | 5 | 5 | 4 | - | - | -
2 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 3 | 4 | 3 | 3 | - | - | 6 | 5 | 5 | 4 | 5 | 5 | 4 | 1 | - | -
3 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 3 | 4 | 4 | 4 | - | - | 6 | 5 | 5 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 5 | 2 | - | -[/table]

Monster Class Level: 16 (Virtual Sorcerer Level 12)
{table=head] Sorcerer Levels | 0 | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 0 | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9
0 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 3 | 3 | 2 | 0 | - | - | - | 6 | 5 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 2 | - | - | -
1 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 1 | - | - | - | 6 | 5 | 4 | 4 | 5 | 5 | 3 | - | - | -
2 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 2 | 3 | - | - | 6 | 5 | 4 | 4 | 5 | 5 | 3 | 1 | - | -
3 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 4 | - | - | 6 | 5 | 4 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 4 | 2 | - | -
4 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 5 | 3 | - | 6 | 5 | 4 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 4 | 2 | 1 | -[/table]

Monster Class Level: 15 (Virtual Sorcerer Level 11)
{table=head] Sorcerer Levels | 0 | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 0 | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9
0 | 4 | 4 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 2 | - | - | - | - | 6 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 3 | - | - | - | -
1 | 4 | 4 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | - | - | - | 6 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 3 | 1 | - | - | -
2 | 4 | 4 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 4 | 4 | - | - | - | 6 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 5 | 4 | 2 | - | - | -
3 | 4 | 4 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 3 | - | - | 6 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 5 | 4 | 2 | 1 | - | -
4 | 4 | 4 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 4 | 6 | 4 | - | - | 6 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 5 | 5 | 3 | 2 | - | -
5 | 4 | 4 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 4 | 6 | 5 | 3 | - | 6 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 5 | 5 | 3 | 2 | 1 | -[/table]

Monster Class Level: 14 (Virtual Sorcerer Level 10)
{table=head] Sorcerer Levels | 0 | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 0 | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9
0 | 4 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 1 | - | - | - | - | 6 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 3 | - | - | - | -
1 | 4 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 4 | 2 | - | - | - | - | 6 | 4 | 5 | 5 | 5 | 4 | - | - | - | -
2 | 4 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 4 | 3 | 3 | - | - | - | 6 | 4 | 5 | 5 | 5 | 4 | 1 | - | - | -
3 | 4 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 4 | 4 | 4 | - | - | - | 6 | 4 | 5 | 5 | 6 | 5 | 2 | - | - | -
4 | 4 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 4 | 4 | 5 | 3 | - | - | 6 | 4 | 5 | 5 | 6 | 5 | 2 | 1 | - | -
5 | 4 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 4 | 4 | 6 | 4 | - | - | 6 | 4 | 5 | 5 | 6 | 6 | 3 | 2 | - | -
6 | 4 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 4 | 4 | 7 | 5 | 3 | - | 6 | 4 | 5 | 5 | 6 | 6 | 3 | 2 | 1 | -[/table]

CommentsAnd here we go with the start of the next project! Formatting will be tweaked to make the tables more readable once they're complete; at this point it's more important that they line up when not rendered, to keep me from making errors in creating them.
Sorcerer casting advancement on reaching level:
{table=head]L | 0 | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 0 | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9
2 | 1 | 1 | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | 1 | 0 | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | -
3 | 0 | 1 | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | 0 | 1 | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | -
4 | 0 | 1 | 3 | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | 1 | 0 | 1 | - | - | - | - | - | - | -
5 | 0 | 0 | 1 | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | 0 | 1 | 1 | - | - | - | - | - | - | -
6 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 3 | - | - | - | - | - | - | 1 | 0 | 0 | 1 | - | - | - | - | - | -
7 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 1 | - | - | - | - | - | - | 0 | 1 | 1 | 1 | - | - | - | - | - | -
8 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 3 | - | - | - | - | - | 1 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 1 | - | - | - | - | -
9 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 1 | - | - | - | - | - | 0 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 1 | - | - | - | - | -
10|0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 3 | - | - | - | - | 1 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 1 | - | - | - | -
11|0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 1 | - | - | - | - | 0 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | - | - | - | -
12|0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 3 | - | - | - | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 1 | - | - | -
13|0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 1 | - | - | - | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 1 | - | - | -
14|0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 3 | - | - | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 1 | - | -
15|0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 1 | - | - | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 1 | - | -
16|0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 3 | - | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 1 | -
17|0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 1 | - | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 1 | -
18|0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 3 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 1
19|0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 1
20|0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 2 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 1
[/table]
Changelog~7:15PM March 9 2011: Original Post: Raw-format tables for advancing after 19, 18, 17, 16, 15, or 14 levels in a monster class.

[DiBastet]

Carnival came and went (oh Brazil, how much I love you), and I can finally post here the revisions I was making.

I did a complete revision on the ragewalker and the mechanic. I suppose now the Ragewalker is a little less boring, as people said it was: Here. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10374313&postcount=495)

BTW, any critics, please, give a better idea. I don't have enought time now with college and all. Just saying "bah, not good, too powerful" does not help. Please estate what you believe would be better.

[Hyudra]

BTW, any critics, please, give a better idea. I don't have enought time now with college and all. Just saying "bah, not good, too powerful" does not help. Please estate what you believe would be better.

I'm not entirely sure I follow. Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but... why would you make a monster class if you want someone else to come up with the ideas for you?

[Scio]

Hey, just going to post this rough draft. Please critique.

Assassin Vine
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/MM35_gallery/MM35_PG20b.jpg
Monster Class
SRD

Class:


HD: D12

{table="head"]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Special |
Maximum Length

1st|+0|+2|+0|+0|Assassin Vine Body, Home Turf, Creeper, Well Grounded, Mind Seeds, Con. +1, Str. +1|
10 Ft.

2nd|+1|+3|+0|+0|Entangle, Improved Grab, Reaching Tendrils, Str. +1, Con. +1|
15 Ft.

3rd|+2|+3|+1|+1|Entangling Charge, Assassin Grapevine, Growth, Con. +1, Str. +1|
30 Ft.

[/table]

Skill Points: (2 + Int modifier) per level, x4 at first level.
Class Skills: The Assassin Vine’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Climb (Str), Escape Artist (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Listen (Wis), Spot (Wis), Survival (Wis),and Use Rope (Dex).

Proficiencies: The Assassin Vine gains proficiency with its natural weapons.

Assassin Vine Body: The Assassin Vine loses all other racial bonuses and becomes a Plant . It gains Plant traits, granting it immunity to all mind-affecting effects, immunity to poison, sleep effects, paralysis, polymorph, and stunning, immunity to critical hits, and Blindsense out 40'. Assassin Vines are initially Medium sized creatures with a base land speed of 15' and a climb speed of 15', possessing 1 Slam that deals 1d8 + Str. modifier damage, a constrict attack that deals 1d8 + 2 x Str. modifier and Natural Armor equal to their Con modifier. Assassin Vines cannot wear armor, due to their unique method of movement. An Assassin Vine has Common as starting languages, with additional languages for a high Int score as normal. An assassin vine cannot normally speak, but the speak with plants spell cast on the vine allows it to speak languages it can understand instead of its normal effect.

Attribute Increase: The Assassin Vine gains +1 to Strength and Constitution at levels 1,2, and 3 for a total increase of +3 Constitution and +3 Strength at level.

Home Turf (Ex.): At first level an Assassin Vine selects it's subspecies from the list below, and gains the appropriate bonus:{table="head"]
Home Turf|Ability|

Cave|Fire Resistance 10|

Cliff|+5' base land speed|

Forest|Deals an additional 1d6 piercing damage on a successful Slam or Constrict|

Swamp|Can use Obscuring Mist 2/Day as a (Su.) ability|[/table]
Additionally,

Creeper (Ex.): Instead of actually 'moving', an Assassin Vine simply grows incredibly fast. Whenever an Assassin Vine takes a move action, it also occupies all of the squares it moved through, up to a maximum of 10' + 5' per HD. If, at the end of the Assassin Vine's turn, it occupies more spaces than its limit will allow, then it stops occupying spaces until it meets it's limit, starting with the oldest spaces first. Because of this form of movement, an Assassin Vine ignores all terrain effects that impede movement. An Assassin Vine cannot take run actions or any other form of accelerated movement outside of it's Entangling Charge ability.

Well Grounded (Ex.): An Assassin Vine has electricity resistance equal to it's HD x 3.

Mind Berries (Su.): Any creature that eats one of the Assassin Vine's berries can communicate telepathically with the Assassin Vine as if they shared a language. The range of this Telepathy is 100' per HD.

Entangle (Su.): At second level, an Assassin Vine can use Entangle a number of time per day equal to it's HD. At 8 HD, this ability changes to at will. Both feats that affect spell-like abilities and supernatural abilities can be applied to this feat.

Improved Grab (Ex..): At second level, an Assassin Vine gains Improved Grab, as the monster ability.If a creature with this special attack hits with a melee weapon (usually a claw or bite attack), it deals normal damage and attempts to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. No initial touch attack is required.

Unless otherwise noted, improved grab works only against opponents at least one size category smaller than the creature. The creature has the option to conduct the grapple normally, or simply use the part of its body it used in the improved grab to hold the opponent. If it chooses to do the latter, it takes a -20 penalty on grapple checks, but is not considered grappled itself; the creature does not lose its Dexterity bonus to AC, still threatens an area, and can use its remaining attacks against other opponents.

A successful hold does not deal any extra damage unless the creature also has the constrict special attack. If the creature does not constrict, each successful grapple check it makes during successive rounds automatically deals the damage indicated for the attack that established the hold. Otherwise, it deals constriction damage as well (the amount is given in the creature’s descriptive text).

When a creature gets a hold after an improved grab attack, it pulls the opponent into its space. This act does not provoke attacks of opportunity. It can even move (possibly carrying away the opponent), provided it can drag the opponent’s weight.

Reaching Tendrils (Ex.): At second level, an Assassin Vine gains the ability to make a number of attacks of opportunity equal to it's HD in addition to the number of attacks of opportunity it can already make.

Entangling Charge (Ex.): At third level, as a standard action, an Assassin Vine can charge at a single opponent within 40' currently effected by it's Entangle ability.

Assassin Grapevine(Ex.): At third level, an Assassin Vine begins to grow berries that are filled with a fast-acting paralytic. This is a poison that, if ingested, forces the victim to make a fortitude save (DC 10 + ½ the Vine's HD + Constitution modifier) or be paralyzed for a number of rounds equal to the Assassin Vine's HD. Alternatively, if an Assassin Vine is currently grappling with an opponent, it can attempt to force a berry down it's opponent's throat. To do this, an Assassin Vine must first succeed at an opposed strength check. If this succeeds, then the opponent suffers the effects as if they had eaten the berry as normal.

Growth (Ex.): At third level, the Assassin Vine's size increases to large, and it's maximum length for it's Creeper ability increases to 10' + 10' per HD. For every 6 HD after this, it grows another size category and the maximum amount of squares for it's Creeper ability doubles (Huge and 20' at 9 HD, Gargantuan and 40' at 15 HD, up to Colossal and 80' at 21 HD)


Comments

So, this is the Assassin Vine. As you can see, It gets Blindsense instead of Blindsight, mostly because Blindsense doesn't get enough love. It also loses the fire and cold resistance, because on a plant that doesn't make much sense.

Other than that, I mostly added things based off of what little flavor the thing has. Assassin Grapevine is mostly because I thought, "Why do they have berries? They can move and make their own fertilizer for gods sake!" So I just kind of threw that in there. I can take it out if anyone wants, as I can see why a save or die at third level wouldn't work. Mind berries net you Telepathy without being easily broken by the Mindsight feat. The others are similar to abilities that the Vine already had, either in the fluff or in the crunch. If anyone thinks that this is broken, or can find a better way to phrase the 'Creeper' ability, then let me know.
I'm thinking of changing it's size after Growth to Large (long) instead.


Changelog

March 9th: Class Posted

March 10th: Added Name (*facepalm*)
Rewrote Assassin Grapevine so it has two types of berries
Put a range limit on Telepathy
Lowered range on Creeper to 10' + 5' per HD.
Added Saidoro's rewrites
Added Growth
Removed Silent Killer

[Gorgondantess]

Sharakim
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/rod_gallery/86340.jpg
HD: D8
{table]Level|Bab|Fort|Ref|Will|Feature
1|+1|+2|+0|+2 |Sharakim Body, Brutish Erudite, Sucker Punch
[/table]
Skills: 4+int modifier, quadruple at 1st level. Class skills are Bluff, Concentration, Diplomacy, Heal, Intimidate, Knowledge (Any), Listen, Search, Sense Motive, Speak Language, Spot, & Spellcraft.

Proficiencies: Sharakim are proficient with Simple and Martial weapons and Light Armor.

Sharakim Body: The Sharakim is a medium humanoid with a move speed of 30' and darkvision out to 60'.

Brutish Erudite: Possessing great amounts of raw power in both mind and body, gaining +2 to either Strength or Intelligence and +1 to the other, Sharakim have learned to utilize this power in various situations.
They may use their Intelligence modifiers for the purposes of Bluff and Diplomacy, and may use their Strength modifier for the purposes of Concentration and Intimidate checks.
Finally, a Sharakim who multiclasses into an Intelligence based spellcasting class can count his Sharakim levels as levels of that class for purposes of CL and for the purposes of learning new spells and geting new spell slots. So for example, a Sharakim 1 who took 1 level of Wizard could choose to have CL 2 and get 1 0th and 1 1st level spell slot. He wouldn't get the spell slots of a 1st level Wizard, however. He would get the familiar ability, Scribe Scroll and specialization options, but Sharakim levels wouldn't count for it.

Sucker Punch: While Sharakim so often fight for acceptance as an intelligent and civilized race, they can also take advantage of their dual nature when needed.
Once per encounter as a part of a charge or single attack, the Sharakim may choose to swing wildly and intentionally miss. They gain a bonus to AC equal to their HD or their intelligence modifier, whichever is higher, until the beginning of their next turn, though they cannot gain any other bonuses from this attack, such as from attacking defensively or combat expertise
If they are currently in combat with the enemy, the Sharakim then makes a Bluff check against that enemy. If they succeed, the enemy must make some sort of offensive action against the Sharakim on their turn if able, believing the Sharakim to be off balance from his wild and brutish attack. Even if the enemy succeeds on their sense motive check, they may still choose to attack the Sharakim.
If the enemy attacks and does not hit the Sharakim next turn, the Sharakim may make one free attack against that enemy: this is similar in function to an attack of opportunity, but does not use up an attack of opportunity and can be used with things like maneuvers, touch attacks such as a trip or disarm, the Intimidating Strike feat, etc. The Sharakim gains a bonus equal to his Intelligence modifier on this attack.
At 6 HD, he may add his Intelligence modifier to the damage as well.
At 8 HD, the enemy is considered Flat-Footed against this attack.
At 10 HD, the enemy must succeed on a Will save DC (10+1/2 HD+Int or Str mod) or be Stunned for 1 round.
At 12 HD, the enemy must also succeed on a Reflex save DC (10+1/2 HD+Int or Str mod) or be knocked prone.
At 14 HD, the Sharakim adds both his HD and his Intelligence modifier to his AC until the end of the turn.
At 16 HD, the enemy must also succeed on a Fortitude save DC (10+1/2 HD+Int or Str mod) or be instantly dropped to 0 hp. This effect only works against enemies vulnerable to critical hits.
So, Sharakim. They make good spellcasters, they make good melee'rs, they make good rogue types. Not sure about... any of the abilities, really, but there you go.