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Saidoro
2011-03-10, 12:06 AM
Hey, just going to post this rough draft. Please critique. Put the creature name up here in size 5.
Class:


HD: D12

{table="head"]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Special |
Maximum Length

1st|+0|+2|+0|+0|Assassin Vine Body, Home Turf, Creeper, Well Grounded, Mind Seeds, Con. +1, Str. +1|
10 Ft.

2nd|+1|+3|+0|+0|Entangle, Improved Grab, Reaching Tendrils, Str. +1, Con. +1|
20 Ft.

3rd|+2|+3|+1|+1|Entangling Charge, Assassin Grapevine, Silent Killer, Con. +1, Str. +1|
30 Ft.

[/table]

Skill Points: (2 + Int modifier) per level, x4 at first level.
Class Skills: The Assassin Vine’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Climb (Str), Escape Artist (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Listen (Wis), Spot (Wis), Survival (Wis),and Use Rope (Dex).

Proficiencies: The Assassin Vine gains proficiency with its natural weapons.

Assassin Vine Body: The Assassin Vine loses all other racial bonuses and becomes a Plant . It gains Plant traits, granting it immunity to all mind-affecting effects, immunity to poison, sleep effects, paralysis, polymorph, and stunning, immunity to critical hits, and Blindsense out 40'. This is a lot of stuff. Consider spreading it out a bit? Assassin Vines are initially Medium sized creatures with a base land speed of 15' and a climb speed of 15', possessing 1 Slam that deals 1d8 + Str. modifier damage, a constrict attack that deals 1d8 + 2 x Str. modifier and Natural Armor equal to their Con modifier. Assassin Vines cannot wear armor, due to their unique method of movement. An Assassin Vine has Plant I don't think plant is a language. (Could be wrong though.) and Common as starting languages, with additional languages for a high Int score as normal. However, an Assassin Vine cannot speak, unless it has had a speak with plants spell cast on it. Reword: An assassin vine cannot normally speak, but the speak with plants spell cast on the vine allows it to speak languages it can understand instead of its normal effect.

Attribute Increase: The Assassin Vine gains +1 to Strength and Constitution at levels 1,2, and 3 for a total increase of +3 Constitution and +3 Strength at level.

Home Turf (Ex.): At first level an Assassin Vine selects it's subspecies from the list below, and gains the appropriate bonus:{table="head"]
Home Turf|Ability|

Cave|Fire Resistance 10|

Cliff|+5' base land speed|

Forest|Deals an additional 1d6 piercing damage on a successful Slam or Constrict|

Swamp|Can use Obscuring Mist at-will as an (Ex.) ability| You forgot an [ /table]tag.


Creeper (Ex.): Instead of actually 'moving', an Assassin Vine simply grows incredibly fast. Whenever an Assassin Vine takes a move action, it also occupies all of the squares it moved through, up to a maximum of 10' + 10' per HD This is a lot of spaces. Consider capping it, or only having it scale only with level. Also it might be better to talk about this in terms of the number of 5' cubes it can occupy. If, at the end of the Assassin Vine's turn, it occupies more spaces then than it's its limit will allow, then it stops occupying spaces until it meets it's limit, starting with the oldest spaces first.

Well Grounded (Ex.): An Assassin Vine has electricity resistance equal to it's HD x 3.

Mind Berries (Su.): Any creature that eats one of the Assassin Vine's berries can communicate telepathically with the Assassin Vine as if they shared a language. For how long? At what range? As written an assassin vine could live comfortably relaying messages across the known multiverse without ever having to move beyond occasionally delivering a berry when someone dies.

Entangle (Sp.): At second level, an Assassin Vine can use Entangle a number of time per day equal to it's HD. At 8 HD, this ability changes to at will.

Improved Grab (Ex..): At second level, an Assassin Vine initiates a grapple whenever it hits with it's slam attack. Change to "May initiate a grapple". Also, it may be better to just give it improved grab.

Reaching Tendrils (Ex.): At second level, an Assassin Vine gains the ability to make an amount number of attacks of opportunity equal to it's HD in addition to the amount number of attacks of opportunity it can already make.

Entangling Charge (Ex.): At third level, as a standard action, an Assassin Vine can charge at a single opponent within 40' currently effected by it's Entangle ability. Kind of dull. This might be better if it could use entangle as a move action or something.

Assassin Grapevine(Ex.): At third level, an Assassin Vine's berries become filled with a fast-acting paralytic. This is a poison that, if ingested, forces the victim to make a fortitude save (DC 10 + ½ the Vine's HD + Constitution modifier) or be paralyzed for a number of rounds equal to the Assassin Vine's HD. Alternatively, if an Assassin Vine is currently grappling with an opponent, it can attempt to force a berry down it's opponent's throat. To do this, an Assassin Vine must first succeed at an opposed strength check. If this succeeds, then the opponent suffers the effects as if they had eaten the berry as normal. Can it turn this off? This kind of shuts down mind berries, yes they could just wait out the poison, but it seems odd that they'd have too.

Silent Killer (Ex.): At third level, if the Assassin Vine has it's opponent pinned, it can attempt to silence it's opponent by winning on an opposed grapple check. While an opponent is silenced, it cannot talk or cast spells with verbal components, as if they were effected by a Silence spell. When pinning an opponent you already have the option of stopping them from talking, this does nothing.

This guy really seems like it should become large sized at some point.



Sharakim
HD: D8
{table]Level|Bab|Fort|Ref|Will|Feature
1|+1|+2|+0|+2 |Sharakim Body, Brutish Erudite, Sucker Punch
[/table]
Skills: 4+int modifier, quadruple at 1st level. Class skills are Bluff, Concentration, Diplomacy, Heal, Intimidate, Knowledge (Any), Listen, Search, Sense Motive, Speak Language, Spot, & Spellcraft.

Proficiencies: Sharakim are proficient with Simple and Martial weapons and Light Armor.

Sharakim Body: The Sharakim is a medium humanoid with a move speed of 30' and darkvision out to 60'. They gain a natural armor bonus equal to half their Constitution modifier.

Brutish Erudite: Possessing great amounts of raw power in both mind and body, gaining +2 to either Strength or Intelligence and +1 to the other, Sharakim have learned to utilize this power in various situations.
They may use their Intelligence modifiers for the purposes of Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate, Sense Motive and Strength what?, and may use their Strength modifier for the purposes of Concentration checks.
Finally, a Sharakim who multiclasses into an Intelligence based spellcasting class can count his Sharakim levels as levels of that class for purposes of CL and for the purposes of learning new spells and geting new spell slots. So for example, a Sharakim 1 who took 1 level of Wizard could choose to have CL 2 and get 1 0th and 1 1st level spell slot. He wouldn't get the spell slots of a 1st level Wizard, however. He would get the familiar ability, Scribe Scroll and specialization options, but Sharakim levels wouldn't count for it.

This makes for a really good wizard dip, +2 int, good fort and will, intelligence to a bunch of stuff, martial weapons and extra HP for when you still need to worry about that. And no loss of caster levels, meaning no long-term price. I could be over reacting, but it seems a bit much.

Sucker Punch: While Sharakim so often fight for acceptance as an intelligent and civilized race, they can also take advantage of their dual nature when needed.
As a part of a charge or single attack, the Sharakim may choose to swing wildly and intentionally miss. They cannot gain any other bonuses from this attack, such as from attacking defensively or combat expertise; however, they do gain a bonus to AC equal to their HD or their intelligence modifier, whichever is higher, until the beginning of their next turn.
They then make a bluff check against the enemy. If they succeed, the enemy must make some sort of offensive action on their turn if able, believing the Sharakim to be off balance from his wild and brutish attack. Even if the enemy succeeds on their sense motive check, they may still choose to attack the Sharakim.
If the enemy attacks and does not hit the Sharakim next turn, the Sharakim may make one free attack against that enemy: this is similar in function to an attack of opportunity, but does not use up an attack of opportunity and can be used with things like maneuvers, touch attacks such as a trip or disarm, the Intimidating Strike feat, etc. The Sharakim gains a bonus equal to his Intelligence modifier on this attack.
At 6 HD, he may add his Intelligence modifier to the damage as well.
At 8 HD, the enemy is considered Flat-Footed against this attack.
At 10 HD, the enemy must succeed on a Will save DC (10+1/2 HD+Int or Str mod) or be Stunned for 1 round.
At 12 HD, the enemy must also succeed on a Reflex save DC (10+1/2 HD+Int or Str mod) or be knocked prone.
At 14 HD, the Sharakim adds both his HD and his Intelligence modifier to his AC until the end of the turn.
At 16 HD, the enemy must also succeed on a Fortitude save DC (10+1/2 HD+Int or Str mod) or be instantly dropped to 0 hp. This effect only works against enemies vulnerable to critical hits.


I've got the mechanic for riding the boar for wrench worked out, just an opposed, size-modified strength check after the initial check, riding on success, pulling out on failure, just need to figure out how to put it in there without making the wording hideously clunky and ugly.

Gorgondantess
2011-03-10, 12:10 AM
It's intended to be a really good wizard dip.

Hyudra
2011-03-10, 12:12 AM
But wizards don't need good dips. They're Wizards.

Gorgondantess
2011-03-10, 12:16 AM
But wizards don't need good dips. They're Wizards.

I think you're looking at this in the wrong way. I made the class that it be well disposed towards becoming a wizard, not that wizards be well disposed towards it.
Then again, I suppose the road to imbalance is paved with good intentions. If it's deemed too powerful, I'll scrap it. As is, though, I think it's sortof adding a drop of water to an ocean. Yeah, it makes a really good wizard, but it doesn't make a wizard any more imbalanced than they already are.

NineThePuma
2011-03-10, 12:18 AM
If it's an LA+1 race, why make a monster class that's strictly better?

Gorgondantess
2011-03-10, 12:19 AM
If it's an LA+1 race, why make a monster class that's strictly better?

Because it's not a race worth +1 LA. In fact, it would be a middling LA +0 race.

Hyudra
2011-03-10, 12:21 AM
If it's an LA+1 race, why make a monster class that's strictly better?

That's the wrong way of thinking about it.

In any event, I don't recommend that it be scrapped. I do recommend, however, that you offer something that works out as an alternate class feature, like I aimed to do with the Drow. Not an upgrade or a downgrade, but a sidegrade, and ideally one that makes for interesting playstyle and/or flavor.

Gorgondantess
2011-03-10, 12:23 AM
That's the wrong way of thinking about it.

In any event, I don't recommend that it be scrapped. I do recommend, however, that you offer something that works out as an alternate class feature, like I aimed to do with the Drow. Not an upgrade or a downgrade, but a sidegrade, and ideally one that makes for interesting playstyle and/or flavor.

But I did. Sucker Punch makes for great rogue/swordsage/initiators, and it has the BAB and strength to make for a good martial type. Other than spellcasting that it wouldn't qualify for in terms of multiclassing, it'd be good at just about any class.

Benly
2011-03-10, 12:25 AM
From an optimization perspective, I would only see this as a superior option for a gish. Strictly speaking, it's not necessarily a straight upgrade for a wizard - but if you offered wizards an ACF where they traded off a single first-level slot and three cantrip slots for +2 Int, +1 BAB, +1 Str, +2 Fort, natural armor, proficiencies, and Int to social skills, I strongly suspect a lot of them would take it even with no gishy plans in their future.

At first level, you'll basically play like a level 1 ranger does (light armor, martial weapons, 1 BAB). After that, you're a wizard who traded a first-level slot and the option of a human bonus feat for the things above.

Gorgondantess
2011-03-10, 12:27 AM
From an optimization perspective, I would only see this as a superior option for a gish. Strictly speaking, it's not necessarily a straight upgrade for a wizard - but if you offered wizards an ACF where they traded off a single first-level slot and three cantrip slots for +2 Int, +1 BAB, +1 Str, +2 Fort, natural armor, proficiencies, and Int to social skills, I strongly suspect a lot of them would take it even with no gishy plans in their future.
Ah, but they also lose their race. It's an important balance point to consider with these classes, especially the 1-level ones.
Nevertheless, I think I'll scrap the natural armor and some of the int-to abilities.

Benly
2011-03-10, 12:35 AM
Ah, but they also lose their race. It's an important balance point to consider with these classes, especially the 1-level ones.
Nevertheless, I think I'll scrap the natural armor and some of the int-to abilities.

I mentioned the human bonus feat in the evaluation under that, but yes. You're trading a feat, a bonus skill point, and a first-level slot (and most of your cantrips, admittedly) for those things listed.

I think it's reasonable to consider the trade in those terms simply because unless you have specific plans (Shadowcraft Mage, Stupid Kobold Tricks, etc.) human is still pretty much the best default wizard race out there.

Gorgondantess
2011-03-10, 12:39 AM
I mentioned the human bonus feat in the evaluation under that, but yes. You're trading a feat, a bonus skill point, and a first-level slot (and most of your cantrips, admittedly) for those things listed.

I think it's reasonable to consider the trade in those terms simply because unless you have specific plans (Shadowcraft Mage, Stupid Kobold Tricks, etc.) human is still pretty much the best default wizard race out there.

Eh, kindof sortof not really. It's good for feat intensive builds, but all in all I'd say lesser tiefling is the best wizard race. In general, I myself will go for a primary casting stat bonus any day over a bonus feat.

Benly
2011-03-10, 01:45 AM
Eh, kindof sortof not really. It's good for feat intensive builds, but all in all I'd say lesser tiefling is the best wizard race. In general, I myself will go for a primary casting stat bonus any day over a bonus feat.

What about a primary casting stat bonus, natural armor, proficiencies.. :smallwink: Loss of race seems like much less of a balancing factor if your favorite thing to look for in a race for this class is already rolled into it.

I forgot about lesser tiefling because of its odd source, but I feel like if you're playing from low levels there are enough useful things to do with feats that on a lot of wizard builds human is an excellent default and can make a qualitative difference that outweighs the quantitative difference that an Int bonus brings. Even at mid levels, there are few enough feats gained in general that an open bonus feat is rather valuable. Human isn't Always The Best Choice, but it's (almost) Always A Good Choice so I think it's a good benchmark for the cost/benefit of losing your race.


Looking at the Beguiler, the Sharakim hurts a lot more, losing 3 first-level slots and 5 cantrip slots. On the other hand, if you multiclass into sharakim at second level, you lose only one of each and it makes a fantastic beguiler. How this is to be done is left as an exercise for the reader. :smallsmile:

Bloody Initiate
2011-03-10, 09:55 AM
Assassin Vine (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=182724&page=42)

First off I want to second everything Saidoro said in his critique.

On to my thoughts of the class:

You gave your Assassin Vine Blindsense 40ft when the one in the Monster Manual has Blindsight 30ft. I don't understand the downgrade. You also neglected to make it scale with HD.

The Home Turf ability doesn't offer equal-power options and none of them scale. How is a +5 to your base land speed even remotely equivalent to a level 1 spell at will as an extraordinary ability? Also, why does living in a cave give you fire resistance? Did you mean for that to be desert?

Since you already have a very slow movement speed, you might want to consider giving the vine the ability to always ignore difficult terrain in its home turf, including difficult terrain created by many spells like grease. After all a vine hanging from a tree doesn't really care if you grease the ground does it?

I like where you're going with Creeper, I really like it :smallamused:. As Saidoro said you need to pin down the wording and spaces carefully, because you're on your way to being a living BFC effect, which is very cool! :smallcool:

Why is Entangle a spell-like ability when the original is a supernatural ability? It doesn't make a big difference aside from now you have to deal with people dispelling your entangle. May I suggest that whichever one you make it (Su or Sp), you include a line of text that says feats and such that enhance Supernatural and/or Spell-like abilities can both be applied to Entangle? That way an Assassin Vine can focus on this ability should they choose, since neither SLAs or Su abilities received a lot of player-targeted support, you should grab the stuff for both.

More than anything this guy needs his stuff to scale more, and it should absolutely become Large size (Perhaps even as early as level 1, even though that's breaking with tradition, because your movement speed counters your additional reach). I would even include a size progression via HD, because being bigger fits you too well not to do it. Something like: At 3 HD the assassin vine grows to Large size. For every 6 HD after its third it grows another size category (Huge at 9 HD, Gargantuan at 15 HD, etc).

Sharakim (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=182724&page=42)

Once again Saidoro did a good job before me, but I still have some concerns as well.

Why is the Sharakim using its Int for Str checks and then using its Str for other stuff? Is this all supposed to stack up? If so, maybe consider using the word "add" instead of "use for the purpose of," because while the effect appears to be the same, how clear it is is definitely not the same.

So "the Sharakim adds their Intelligence modifier to Bluff and Diplomacy checks as well as all strength checks, and they add their Strength modifier to Concentration and Intimidate checks."

If you did not intend for it all to stack, then I wonder why you have him using two ability scores for most things but then are randomly substituting one for the other.

Sucker Punch is very weird.

So a Sharkim goes into a new city, charges at a... let's say stabled horse, makes a bluff check and the horse is forced to attack him with no save aside from its sense motive check?

As it is written, you can swing and miss at anyone and if they fail to beat your bluff check with their sense motive check they must attack you, even if nobody was fighting in the first place, and since this isn't listed as mind-affecting and/or a compulsion, you can force people who are immune to those to swing at you, which is fine but still odd.

I know D&D allows for weird crap like this all over the place, but I do not believe that creates the necessity for more. If your intent was to make the Sharakim clownish then by all means keep things as they are. The ability is certainly funnier this way :smallsmile:, and it's definitely very good for starting tavern brawls.

You might want to consider putting the paragraph "They cannot gain any other bonuses from this attack..." later in the ability description, since right now the Sharakim swings and misses and "doesn't gain any bonuses to this attack" etc.

I would also make the ability once per encounter per enemy, as many similar abilities are. The idea being that once someone sees this slightly absurd trick they are not vulnerable to it a second time. It also takes two rounds and about three rolls, which is a lot of time to spend playing three stooges, especially with no per-encounter limit right now.

Julajimus
2011-03-10, 12:32 PM
I am confused as to what is retained from your original race when you take one of these classes. Can someone give an example?

Kobold-Bard
2011-03-10, 12:34 PM
I am confused as to what is retained from your original race when you take one of these classes. Can someone give an example?

Nothing. The point of the first sentence in the X Body abilities is that these are your class & race from now on, you lose everything as if you had never formerly been any other race.

eg. An Elf who at level 1 takes the Owlbear class becomes an Owlbear, forever changing it's type & subtypes, racial traits and features & racial abilities (including ability mods etc). from those of an Elf to those of an Owlbear.

NineThePuma
2011-03-10, 12:35 PM
You Have No Race. Ahahaha.

flabort
2011-03-10, 01:00 PM
Unless you take a prestige class, AKA template.
Those retain your old race, but add/remove certain things.

Julajimus
2011-03-10, 01:05 PM
Okay, so if a human monk 1 takes a level of Imp his type becomes Outsider. Does he need to eat and sleep? Does he gain Proficiency in all Simple and Martial weapons? These are traits of the outsider type.

Kobold-Bard
2011-03-10, 01:09 PM
Okay, so if a human monk 1 takes a level of Imp his type becomes Outsider. Does he need to eat and sleep? Does he gain Proficiency in all Simple and Martial weapons? These are traits of the outsider type.

They don't need to eat or sleep, but still breathe.
They get Darkvision 60ft.
They can't be revived (I personally think should get a council ruling changing this because they're PCs after all).
They don't get general Outsider weapon/armour proficiencies because the class specifically tells you what you get. Specific trumps general.

Frog Dragon
2011-03-10, 01:14 PM
The black dragon revision will take quite a while, since I have been busy. I haven't abandoned it, but it will take a while. Just noting.

Crafty Cultist
2011-03-10, 01:14 PM
They don't need to eat or sleep, but still breathe.
They get Darkvision 60ft.
They can't be revived (I personally think should get a council ruling changing this because they're PCs after all).
They don't get weapon/armour proficiencies because the class specifically tells you what you get. Specific trumps general.

Since a monk becomes an outsider with the native subtype, they still need to eat and sleep and can be raised from the dead

Kobold-Bard
2011-03-10, 01:15 PM
Since a mink becomes an outsider with the native subtype, they still need to eat and sleep and can be raised from the dead

Eventually yes. But until then, not so much.

DiBastet
2011-03-10, 02:31 PM
Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but...

You are. I say that if you say "I don't like +6 Dex. Change" you should say "I don't like +6 dex. +2 dex, +2 str should be better". It's really not that hard to understand. Constructive criticism, that helps building things, not just "scrap it, make something better".

In any case, the important part of the phrase is the "i don't have so much time now".

Got it?

ScionoftheVoid
2011-03-10, 03:42 PM
-snip-


-snip-

Links to my response to your last critique, Gorgondantess. May not be too helpful (the bit you couldn't find is rather more vague than the changelog entry for that date), but it does give reasoning for the two things I neglected to change.

Also, just changed wording on Horrendous Visage, which I had previously forgotten to do, as well as altering the conditions inflicted having looked at the Maerenoloth (spelling?), so discount what I say about Horredous Visage in my second response there.

Hyudra
2011-03-10, 06:05 PM
Ok, let's see, I'll be starting another batch critique of monsters updated/posted since March 5th, 2011.
Gargoyle
Vivisector
Razor Boar
Aboleth
Phase Wasp
Chuul
Hooded Pupil
Phantom
Greenbound Creature et al.
Justice Archon
Coure Eladrin
Half Dragon
Grick
Assassin Vine
Sharakim
Not Critiquing:
Centaur & Drow are mine, can't critique my own work.
Black Dragon is being reconceptualized, IIRC.
Hellfire Wyrm is awaiting the revisionist dragon posts & a revision.
Briarvex not updated since 3-05-11.
Pandorym not updated since 3-05-11.
Jovoc not updated since 3-05-11.
Remorhaz not updated since 3-05-11.
Ettercap not updated since 3-05-11.
Violet Fungus not updated since 3-05-11.
Psurlon not updated since 3-05-11.
Unbodied not updated since 3-05-11.
Corrupted Creature not updated since 3-05-11. Moving it to the abandoned list.
Gray Jester not updated since 3-05-11. Moving it to the abandoned list.
If your creature is a WIP and you don't want a critique, speak now or forever hold your peace. I would much appreciate such, as it means less for me to do.

If I've already done a bunch of critiques of your monster, and you've made changes, expect relatively truncated feedback. A glance-over, a few pointers and a statement as to whether I'm passing it on to Gorgon & Kyuubi to vote on or not.

Mystic Muse
2011-03-10, 06:12 PM
Hellfire Wyrm is a work in progress right now.

Hyudra
2011-03-10, 06:30 PM
So noted, Kyuubi, thank you.

Gorgondantess informed me Sharakim is undergoing revision, but I halfways expect that will be done before I get to it. In any event, I will check up with Gorgon before critiquing it. And he says it's been revised.

NineThePuma
2011-03-10, 09:23 PM
Feel free to ignore the Half Dragon for now, Hyudra. I have some things I want to tweak with it.

Gorgondantess
2011-03-10, 09:34 PM
As a note, I recently (as in just now) revised the Psionic Mindflayer a bit. I'm actually quite proud of it, considering old standards.
Speaking of which, could we alter the index a little? It should be Mindflayer, Psionic, as opposed to Psionic Mindflayer.

Hyudra
2011-03-10, 10:00 PM
Feel free to ignore the Half Dragon for now, Hyudra. I have some things I want to tweak with it.

Thank you.


Speaking of which, could we alter the index a little? It should be Mindflayer, Psionic, as opposed to Psionic Mindflayer.

It has been done.

Scio
2011-03-10, 10:45 PM
Okay, I added most of Saidoro's and Bloody Initiates suggestions and rewrites.
Saidoro: Sorry, but those are plant traits. I suppose it could get fortification or something instead, though.

Bloody Initiate: It gains Blindsight because Blindsense just seems overpowered to me. Essentially it means that you are never taken off guard. With Blindsense, you still have to deal with concealment and such, so it seems to be a better option for PCs.
It gains Fire Resistance if it picks caves because the fluff says that they live around thermal vents. Check if you don't believe me.

I hope that answers all of your questions. Please tell me if I missed anything.

Gorgondantess
2011-03-10, 11:22 PM
Bloody Initiate: It gains Blindsight because Blindsense just seems overpowered to me. Essentially it means that you are never taken off guard. With Blindsense, you still have to deal with concealment and such, so it seems to be a better option for PCs.
There are perfectly valid ways to get blindsight as a PC anyways. If it's such a problem, just let it upgrade to blindsight at 10 HD.

ScionoftheVoid
2011-03-11, 04:29 PM
I'm still just waiting for Gorgon's response, so you can skip the Gargoyle again if you wish (though it's had a fair few changes since you last reviewed it, so you may want to give it a quick look over).

Volthawk
2011-03-11, 07:02 PM
Nikola Tesla (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=282110)

And here are his answers to the questions in red:

Where did his ancestors live before the lunar rain? What happened to their hereditary home?
My ancestors lived in a small town on the surface, it was crushed completly in the lunar rains.

• Where did they turn for shelter during the lunar rain? What enemies and allies did they make?


• What interaction has the character had with the dragons and other lunar aberrations?
[COLOR="red"]I have mostly observed lunar creatures from a distance, though I was once part of a large platoon to take down a lunar dragon.

• How does he feel about steam technology?
Does it offer salvation or is it an affront to the old ways? Does it threaten
the supremacy of magic or challenge the power of the gods?

Steam technology is indeed the way of the future and there is true strength to be found in using it. That is why I am a steamborg.

• After all the devastation wrought by the lunar rain, and the hardships your character has endured, does he still have faith in his gods?
Nikola has determined that the gods abandoned the mortals a long time ago.

• Does the Gearwrights Guild speak the truth about the first Age of Walkers, even though the ancient elven texts make no reference to such an era?

Don't know and honestly don't care. The present is what is important. Let the dwarves and elves bicker all they want.

• What does your character think about mechs? Are they vehicles, mere “wagons with legs,” or a revolutionary new concept? Are those who pilot mechs merely using them as a crutch, or are they powerful in a manner that is new for the world?

Mechs can be strong useful tools, though I find most of them too clumsy and they are no match for someone who knows how to take them down.

• Does your character see the world’s current state of unrest as a clarion call for heroic defenders to fight the lunar aberrations and end the lunar rain, or a once-in-a-lifetime chance for profit and power?

Can't it be both?



Psst...wrong thread.

Hyudra
2011-03-11, 07:12 PM
I was three-quarters of the way through the batch critique when I went out for the afternoon to do some shopping and errands. I got back to discover there'd been a brief (10 minute) blackout while I was gone, and the usual methods of recovering my work have failed me.

With that in mind, I'm really not up to redoing the critique from the start right away. Tonight or tomorrow, probably.

Lizard Lord
2011-03-11, 10:12 PM
Psst...wrong thread.

:smallredface:

Frog Dragon
2011-03-12, 09:25 AM
Maybe I should post the highly incomplete Black Dragon revision..

Currently, I'm wrestling with an issue. The class grants +5 to Int, Str and Cha by level 20. In addition, Draconic Path allows you to gain another +1 to any one of these at levels 1, 5, 9, 13 and 17. The chassis has d8 HD and medium BAB, and +10 to str is pretty much perfect with that for the fighting inclined. However, the Dragon Mage path still has the same pseudo-bard casting, with either the druid or the sorcerer list (no better ideas). Draconic Path would allow them to gain a +10 to charisma, which works out to a big load of bonus spells and +5 to save DC:s. Starting with a Cha of 18 and throwing Draconic Path and level up bonuses into cha, our Dragon Mage could have a Charisma of 33 without items by level 20. Is this too much? Should I remove the base charisma bonus entirely (So they can only get +5 from Dragon levels themselves)?

Hyudra
2011-03-12, 12:19 PM
What skills or powers do they have that use int? Why, in short, are they getting the huge int mod? Ditto for Cha.

I don't advise posting the incomplete creature - that's just going to make for a lot of mess & confusion, and it doesn't ever get the feedback one would want. What you should do is outline what your goals were when approaching the task, how you addressed said goals and such. Explain why you're giving it the abilities you have (including the stat mods) so we have more context for understanding the challenges you describe.

On the topic of spells: You talk about dragons getting their choice of arcane vs. druid spells. The trouble with that is, well, druid spell selection kind of sucks hardcore compared to what the arcane casters get. Do you intend to address this?

Makiru
2011-03-13, 03:52 AM
I've been having some trouble thinking of a capstone ability for the garngrath. I gave it the generic name "Avatar of Destruction", and I know I want it to be able to burrow through any material with up to a hardness of 30 at no penalty, but it needs more to feel like a proper capstone. Looking at the Tarrasque class, nothing on it seems really appropriate to adapt, and I've already given out all the abilities of the base creature.

So, does the Playground have any suggestions on what to give someone for sticking through 20 levels of Tarrasque-lite? The rest of the class is done, but I've been wracking my brain over this and haven't come up with anything that sounds right.

Scio
2011-03-13, 11:58 AM
Question: If I were to make a monster class using a monster from the Creature Catalogue (http://creaturecatalog.enworld.org/cc/converted/index.php?)'s "Converted Monsters" list, would that go in here or in the homebrew thread?

Kajhera
2011-03-14, 11:24 AM
... So no one's done anything with the Trumpet Archon, and it didn't count as complete enough to be abandoned?

Anyone bored should look at that. :smallwink:

Also I changed Grell so they get a tentacle attack per 3HD, rather than 2. This, erm, doesn't necessarily mean I'm back or reclaiming it, it just seemed sensible.

Hope there's nothing wrong with doing that?

Hyudra
2011-03-14, 12:06 PM
Abandoned monsters were only really tracked after I took over handling the front page. IIRC, Trumpet Archon predates me.

Psyborg
2011-03-14, 01:58 PM
FYI, people, this is spring break for me and Internet access will be decidedly sporadic. Caster progression tables, the last two Greenbound Creature symbionts, and any proofreads are unlikely to happen before next week. Looking forward to getting back to work on the project, but I don't have too much computer access just now, and very little for extended periods of time.

See y'all next week.

-Psy

Gorgondantess
2011-03-14, 02:02 PM
Abandoned monsters were only really tracked after I took over handling the front page. IIRC, Trumpet Archon predates me.

This is true: it predates you by... a few pages.


Question: If I were to make a monster class using a monster from the Creature Catalogue's "Converted Monsters" list, would that go in here or in the homebrew thread?
...Could you give a brief description as to just what these "converted monsters" are? I'm going to assume that it's some guy who decided to convert all the monsters from 1st and 2nd edition D&D to 3rd/3.5: is this correct?

Zemro
2011-03-14, 05:16 PM
I said I'd do it, so here it is:

Centaur (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10494644&postcount=1151)
Interesting choice on saves, between the race itself and Hinterlands Survivor, I was expecting a good Fort here. Ref/Will seems kinda odd for a centaur.
Should note that the x4 is only if taken at first, just to be safe.
Interesting proficiencies, should specifically note that they're not proficient with armour or shields.
Abilities look like they're all (Ex) abilities, but it should probably still be noted.
Hinterlands Courser is quite neat
Counting as being mounted is interesting, and so are the phantom ranks in ride. Might want to specify whether or not the centaur counts as a mount, and to what extent. Like, for example, for purposes of items such as Horseshoes of Speed/Zephyr.
It might just be me, but I find the name 'Tromp and Trample' kind of unwieldy for a name, just find it as something odd to say during a game. The ability does make for a clear and rather nice visual.
Seems like it might have odd interaction if you want to overrun or trample (the feats and such) on a charge.
Since you'll probably be moving at least ten feet, makes an interesting combination with skirmish...
Counting as being mounted benefits a ranged centaur very little from what my research turned up. Though overall this strikes me as a more melee oriented class with some ranged options.
Hinterlands Survivor was unexpected as far as abilities go, absolutely destroys environmental effects/dangers. Like the desert heat dangers table from Sandstorm (not that is was hard to do so in the first place though).
The 7HD ability seems like it might be odd to adjudicate.
Any special considerations for supernatural environmental effects?
Treating wind effects one step lower might need some elaboration. I'm assuming that allows you to treat winds as one step lighter for the Fort save, but since there's no specified conditions it seems to me that RAW it makes firing arrows in storms easier. Which I think would be interesting if so, but needs to be addressed specifically either way.
Evaluating Seeker's Strike was a bit of a learning experience, never really looked at sundering rules before and found all sorts of neat little facts.
So, no bonus from the spirited charge (or ride-by attack) feat if they picked it up?
Weird sunder trivia, you can't damage equipment with sunder that has a higher enhancement bonus then your weapon. Does this apply to Seeker's Strike? (Probably should, in my opinion. While it's a weird tidbit, the ability is a sunder analogue and should probably keep some what analogous to it).
Really starts to devastate equipment at higher levels, but between expected opponents and the fact that I don't see it rapidly repeatable (unless it does work with ride-by attack, then it could be rather interesting and neat).
Might want to specify that the bonus from felling shot be applied after effects like keen when being stacked. It gets rather ridiculous otherwise, especially at higher levels.
Under Ironshod advance, might it just be easier to say that the centuar can make on turn of up to 90° ? Or at least more straightforward in regards to turning limitations.
I'm not sure I like the effect though, takes a bit extra adjudication to track relative BABs. And that can get you out of a lot of AoOs, bit better then the alternatives. The AC penalty is rather negligible, it's really just a free bonus to hit that gets you more attacks at your full BAB then you would be getting otherwise.
You could probably be a bit clearer with the 6HD ability. I'm not sure I like further reducing the 'downsides' to this ability, it's quite nice already.
12HD also had me confused initially, I understand it now but it could probably use some elaboration to clear it up. Meshes well with the 6HD advancement.
18HD definitely has me confused. I think I know what you mean by it, but I'm not really sure.
Overall, it's a lot of benefits with very little downside. Terrain aside, it seems that using this ability will always be your best choice for a full-round action. Not much of a decision making process, just an easy choice to use as much as possible. The centuar's going to get a lot more attacks at his full BAB with this ability than he would be able to otherwise.
You only specify that the centaur gets a free attack, not whether it's ranged or melee, implying that he could use either. Intentional?
Damn that centaur's going to have a huge quiver...
Your note at the end, does that mean if a centaur pop invisibility and acquires sneak attack he could, say, deal that damage once to every target? That's definitely hands down better then other volley alternatives.
Initial ability wording could be cleared up to point out who the extra attacks at low-health foes work. It could be read as either less heath than the target had before, or than then centaur, I'm assuming it's the centaur otherwise that's just free attacks.
Do temporary hit points count for purposes of determining who's lower/higher?
That's some good range, toss a few enhancements onto your bow and/or grab some feats and you could be looking at some serious AoE potential within one range increment. Fortunately we're limited by ability mod, but that's some nice range.
If you have more targets then allowed shots, is there any method for determining who to attack?
I like the idea over all, same note as above, it'll be a lot more attacks at Full BAB then they could get any other way. As a standard action even, I'm not sure why I'd attack with a bow any other way was I to have enough targets.
At 9HD, does the centaur choose one option when the ability is first gained and then uses that? Or chooses whenever using the ability?
Man, this is a lot of arrows, definitely makes something that produces ammunition a priority.
15HD, same query as at 9HD. Still a high potential for a lot more full BAB attacks then I can think to get otherwise.
I love the flavour, but I think this ability might be a bit much. Especially as you get into the higher levels it seems to me that using this ability is almost a non-choice. Grab a splitting bow, some con or hit point buffs to raise your HP and you'll just be going to town on any sort of group that wanders into your range with all those attacks at full BAB. Never mind if you get any extra standard actions...
Overall the class is very neat and cool, but I think you're getting a lot out of it for just three levels. Using it's abilities doesn't seem like there's much choice behind them, you'll use them over other options unless you've been forced into a situation where you can't. The ranged options especially seems a lot more attracted then other ranged oriented creatures I've seen come through here. It's didn't look like much with everything in spoilers, but you're getting a lot of stuff from three levels.

That, uh, ended up being longer than I thought it would going into the class... I'll make other commentary on other monsters another time I think.

Hyudra
2011-03-14, 08:00 PM
Centaur (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10494644&postcount=1151)
Interesting choice on saves, between the race itself and Hinterlands Survivor, I was expecting a good Fort here. Ref/Will seems kinda odd for a centaur.

It's actually the saves of the base monster. I used that as a placeholder, working from the assumption that the Centaur's innate con bonus would help compensate for the lower Fort progression, and just figured I'd wait until someone commented on it before making a decision either way.


Hinterlands Courser is quite neat

Thank you. It seemed bizarre to me that Centaurs were predominantly placed in Forests, but had their primary racial feature (movement speed) hampered by the terrain of such. Including rocky terrain and the like just helps fit in centaurs from other sources. I do like Guild Wars centaurs, from which I drew the picture (there's also this one (http://i55.tinypic.com/2w5944w.jpg)), and they tend to crop up in deserts and snowy peaks.


Counting as being mounted is interesting, and so are the phantom ranks in ride. Might want to specify whether or not the centaur counts as a mount, and to what extent. Like, for example, for purposes of items such as Horseshoes of Speed/Zephyr.


It might just be me, but I find the name 'Tromp and Trample' kind of unwieldy for a name, just find it as something odd to say during a game.

To be a hundred percent honest, I feel the same way. That is, I don't like the name either, but honestly, not sure what to replace it with. I dug through the thesaurus for alternatives to trample, kick, hoof, stomp, stamp, etc, and didn't find anything that really fit. I'm open to suggestions, people.


Seems like it might have odd interaction if you want to overrun or trample (the feats and such) on a charge.

I think I'm ok with how that works, conceptually.


Counting as being mounted benefits a ranged centaur very little from what my research turned up. Though overall this strikes me as a more melee oriented class with some ranged options.

The primary benefit to ranged attackers is the innate movement speed. You can play the mongol and outpace opponents while filling them with arrows.


Hinterlands Survivor was unexpected as far as abilities go, absolutely destroys environmental effects/dangers. Like the desert heat dangers table from Sandstorm (not that is was hard to do so in the first place though).

Yeah, this is one ability that was drawn from other sources than just the D&D Centaur, including the Guild Wars centaur. The concept is really that Centaurs are warriors of nature, penultimate hunters, and I wanted them to be able to thrive in a variety of environments to represent this. I like the mental image of Centaurs attacking during a storm, ambushing players as they navigate a mountainside or centaur nomads making hit and run attacks on a desert wasteland.


The 7HD ability seems like it might be odd to adjudicate.

It seems clear to me. Could you perhaps give a situation where it would be hard to adjudicate? I'm open to further criticism on this point from others, as well.


Evaluating Seeker's Strike was a bit of a learning experience, never really looked at sundering rules before and found all sorts of neat little facts.

Yeah, sunder is a funny little bird. You don't generally make much use of it, because you don't want to destroy your own soon-to-be-treasure, so trying to make an ability where you can sunder stuff without running into that problem was a tricky thing in and of itself.


So, no bonus from the spirited charge (or ride-by attack) feat if they picked it up?

Nay. I didn't want to promote a heavily charge-based playstyle, because the innate bonus for lace and the like already sets that up very nicely.

Might want to specify that the bonus from felling shot be applied after effects like keen when being stacked. It gets rather ridiculous otherwise, especially at higher levels.


Under Ironshod advance, might it just be easier to say that the centuar can make on turn of up to 90° ? Or at least more straightforward in regards to turning limitations.

Sure. I did find that clunky, but it's one of those things where I just couldn't come up with something better at any point I went back to it. The single 90 degree turn is something of a nerf, but it'll do until I come back to it in a few days/weeks/months and put something else in place.


I'm not sure I like the effect though, takes a bit extra adjudication to track relative BABs. And that can get you out of a lot of AoOs, bit better then the alternatives. The AC penalty is rather negligible, it's really just a free bonus to hit that gets you more attacks at your full BAB then you would be getting otherwise.

Scrapped the to-hit bonus and AC penalty. Neither was necessary.


You could probably be a bit clearer with the 6HD ability. I'm not sure I like further reducing the 'downsides' to this ability, it's quite nice already.

Well, keep in mind that with your HD progression of Ironshod Advance, you're getting a number of attacks against a set number of foes about on par with what a PC with full BAB is getting, or more attacks against a single foe, provided it's set up properly. More on the design intent of Ironshod Advance after.


12HD also had me confused initially, I understand it now but it could probably use some elaboration to clear it up. Meshes well with the 6HD advancement.

18HD definitely has me confused. I think I know what you mean by it, but I'm not really sure.

Changing the wording.


Overall, it's a lot of benefits with very little downside. Terrain aside, it seems that using this ability will always be your best choice for a full-round action. Not much of a decision making process, just an easy choice to use as much as possible. The centuar's going to get a lot more attacks at his full BAB with this ability than he would be able to otherwise.

Ok, so, design intent: As I want my Centaur abilities to be worth, say, a level of Swordsage, the overall goal here is to have an ability that's about on par with a stance or maneuver... and since you're trading away the versatility of having several maneuvers, I wanted it to be fairly reusable. So with Ironshod Advance, what you're really getting is the ability to cut down a horde of foes (making up to a half dozen attacks, quite possibly) or to maybe get an extra attack against a single foe (at 12HD) as compared to a full BAB attacker... which is fairly on par with a maneuver. If the DM so wishes, he can have foes anticipate the Centaur's attack and close ranks.

As far as decision making processes go, I think for the Centaur, it boils down to range vs. melee and prioritizing single dangerous targets (ie. the Erinyes) vs. multiple targets (ie. the lemures the Erinyes summoned plus the Erinyes). If you're mid level and safely at range, do you use Seeker's Strike for the sure thing with extra oomph or do you use Ironshod Advance to get potential multiple hits? That's how I interpret it. Hopefully taking away the to-hit bonus (with the AC penalty that counterbalanced it) will help make it more of a decision.


You only specify that the centaur gets a free attack, not whether it's ranged or melee, implying that he could use either. Intentional?

More or less. Since you're making the attack against the foe you would've triggered the AoO from, you're quite likely provoking by moving through one of their adjacent spaces, meaning you're close and ranged weapons probably aren't the ideal thing to use.


Damn that centaur's going to have a huge quiver...

Being four legged, bonus encumbrance allotment, yay!


Your note at the end, does that mean if a centaur pop invisibility and acquires sneak attack he could, say, deal that damage once to every target? That's definitely hands down better then other volley alternatives.

He could. My assumption was that a Centaur would gravitate more towards Scout for Skirmish than anything else, but sneak attack works too, I guess.

I'd be willing to tone it down or strip away this benefit, but can't think of a way to do it that doesn't come across as really, really awkward.

Maybe just disallow precision based damage with Thin the Herd? Yeah. Gonna try this. Precision based damage removed. Feedback on this appreciated.


Do temporary hit points count for purposes of determining who's lower/higher?

Sure.


I like the idea over all, same note as above, it'll be a lot more attacks at Full BAB then they could get any other way. As a standard action even, I'm not sure why I'd attack with a bow any other way was I to have enough targets.

I love the flavour, but I think this ability might be a bit much. Especially as you get into the higher levels it seems to me that using this ability is almost a non-choice. Grab a splitting bow, some con or hit point buffs to raise your HP and you'll just be going to town on any sort of group that wanders into your range with all those attacks at full BAB. Never mind if you get any extra standard actions...

I'm okay with having a lot more attacks against a group of enemies than not. It's in line with the kind of damage one can output via. spells and many maneuvers. I'm also ok with it being a good finishing move to polish off a small group of already wounded enemies. What I have done is removed the ability to use Felling Shot with Thin the Herd so there's more decision making between the two. Quality vs. quantity.

Thank you kindly for the feedback. I did address some stuff I didn't quote. The overall changelog is:

Centaur (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=10494644#post10494644) Changes, March 14, 2011:
Changed save progression from Good Reflex/Will, Bad Fort to Good Fort/Reflex, Bad Will.
Clarified that the x4 skill points were granted at 1st only.
Clarified proficiencies to stress it gets no armor proficiencies.
Specified abilities as being (Ex).
Wilds Skirmisher now states the Centaur counts as being both a mounted rider and a mount at any time it would be beneficial (previously was just mounted rider). This now allows the centaur to wear horseshoes of speed and the like.
Clarified about ranged attacks and the effect of wind (or rain) to such. As of now, ranged attacks have reduced penalties only for the first range increment.
Seeker's Strike can no longer damage items with a higher enhancement bonus than the Centaur's own weapon.
Stated that the crit benefit of Felling Shot is applied after the Keen effects and the like.
Simplified Ironshod Advance, stating the Centaur may only make one turn during the movement, up to 90 degrees.
Ironshod Advance no longer grants +2 to hit and -1 AC, simplifying it some and making it a touch more balanced.
Changed wording of 12HD advancement of Ironshod Advance.
Expanded the wording of 18HD advancement of Ironshod Advance to hopefully make it clearer.
Clarified some wording on Thin the Herd, as it was ambiguous whether it referred to foes having less health than they did prior to having an arrow stuck in 'em or foes having less health than the Centaur (it was intended to be the latter).
Wording changed in Thin the Herd so the Centaur now picks a number of targets equal to his Dex mod. Less ambiguous about what happens when you have less shots than you have targets.
Thin the Herd no longer allows for precision based damage. (sneak attack, etc.)
Thin the Herd no longer works alongside Felling Shot.
Changed wording to stress that the choice at 9HD of Thin the Herd is made anytime you make the attack.
Ditto for 15HD.
Many thanks to Zemro Shivic for the feedback leading to all of the changes today.

Benly
2011-03-14, 08:10 PM
Heh, here I figured that using precision damage with Thin The Herd was deliberate to put it on par with Greater Manyshot. Being a multitarget standard action with precision seems like a deliberate candy thrown to scouts. It has less single-target damage output than GMS but gives you respectable AoE damage. (I'm also sort of assuming that centaur into scout/ranger Swift Hunter is the default advancement path.)

Hyudra
2011-03-14, 08:21 PM
Heh, here I figured that using precision damage with Thin The Herd was deliberate to put it on par with Greater Manyshot. Being a multitarget standard action with precision seems like a deliberate candy thrown to scouts. It has less single-target damage output than GMS but gives you respectable AoE damage. (I'm also sort of assuming that centaur into scout/ranger Swift Hunter is the default advancement path.)

Semi-deliberate, but when it comes to stuff I don't have personal in-game experience with, I tend to err on the side of caution. I haven't really done the archer thing, so I played it safe and went with Zemro Shivic's suggestion. I'm open to arguments either way, though.

Gorgon, on IM, suggested that I remove the recently-added enhancement bonus requirement on Seeker's Strike, given Centaur is splitting WBL between melee & bow, and that items with enhancement bonuses are tough enough already. I'm swayed, but won't make the change right away, so it's something else one could chime in on.

In any event, Gorgon gave the a-ok to Centaur prior to Zemro Shivic's critique and said, to paraphrase, "other than seeker's strike enhancement bonus thingy, good changes" so I can assume it still has his thumbs up.

I'll wait for confirmation from him, the vote from Kyuubi and for feedback on changes made/not made before I add it to the list. After that, I'm putting up the Frostwind Virago, who wasn't even done when she broke the 50,000 character limit for posts.

Am currently (was in the middle of, before the centaur post came up) doing the batch critique that was so rudely interrupted on Saturday. Will be a little bit.

DiBastet
2011-03-14, 09:04 PM
I may be blind, but don't see ragewalker anywhere in the list of batch-critiques-whatever. Who will be the editor from now?

Scio
2011-03-14, 10:13 PM
...Could you give a brief description as to just what these "converted monsters" are? I'm going to assume that it's some guy who decided to convert all the monsters from 1st and 2nd edition D&D to 3rd/3.5: is this correct?

Yeah, that's pretty much spot on. They've been converted by some guy named Scott Greene. Apparently he wrote a couple of third-party books for D&D.
Mainly, I just want to know that if I were to make a Peltast or a Xaver or something, whether I should put it in here or the homebrew thread.

Also, I would like to call the Needlefolk, Susurrus, and the Orcwort, though they probably won't be done for a while.

Hyudra
2011-03-14, 11:42 PM
As it's not official 3.5 material, I'd say homebrew section.

Gorgondantess
2011-03-14, 11:45 PM
Yeah, that's pretty much spot on. They've been converted by some guy named Scott Greene. Apparently he wrote a couple of third-party books for D&D.
Mainly, I just want to know that if I were to make a Peltast or a Xaver or something, whether I should put it in here or the homebrew thread.

I'm going to call it homebrew. The idea of this project is to make monsters for official monsters that people are familiar with, and might want to play as, whereas the homebrew section is just for monstrous classes. While these all may be somewhat familiar monsters to some, for the most part they're the rejects.
And, yeah, not official material.

Hyudra
2011-03-15, 06:03 PM
Kinda making these short and sweet, but here we go:

Vivisector (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10219990&postcount=129)
Strongly recommend you make use of Psyborg's grammar/polish review service. He'll PM you a revised copy of your monster with grammar/spelling/format errors fixed.
I don't think Vivisector should get light armor proficiency. The base creature has natural armor (and a small deflection bonus).

Razor Boar (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10227868&postcount=139)
Scent: I suggest having something prior to the spoiler along the lines of "Scent is detailed here:"
Given that unstoppable is revealed to be a free action, it makes me wonder if there's problems or incongruencies that might arise. RAW, I could be a 10th level Razor Boar, get permanently petrified and twice a day therafter, get 10 rounds of freedom from the petrifaction effect. There's enough fluff in D&D background to support the notion of petrified creatures being free to think while their bodies are stone.

Aboleth (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10367328&postcount=473)
Strongly encourage you to take Psyborg up on his offer to review & fix up grammar/spelling/format issues through your post & send the revised version to you by PM.
Drowning Ooze: 1 foot thick? D&D, by and large, works in measures of 5 feet. What circumstances would cause one to be affected by the ooze with 5' radius where 1' radius wouldn't? Clarify.
"lose the ability to exist on land properly for the next minute." - kinda vague.

Phase Wasp (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10399951&postcount=524)
A pic I came across that made me think of the Phase Wasp: http://i51.tinypic.com/2q9vvy9.jpg
Looking good. Will leave for Gorgon to polish and comment on.

Chuul (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10414321&postcount=585)
I still think the stun is a bit much. Consider that you're, every time you hit with your claw, forcing a "save or you lose a turn". For creatures that are holding weapons or items, it's "save or you lose a turn and drop your weapon." Dropping a weapon means they either lose the weapon (and are severely gimped in combat) or they take an action/provoke an AoO for trying to retrieve it. To top it all off, they lose their dex bonus to AC and take a further -2 to AC, meaning they're pretty much dead if another ally can spare the time to attack them. I reiterate, it's too potent for how easy it is to apply, for your level (since it's a tacked-on-bonus to something you'd be doing anyways).

Hooded Pupil (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10449208&postcount=711)
Don't love the class feature name "Dead Master" as it implies something rather different. Perhaps "Tutelage of the Dark" or something?
Vampires Forms:
Good overall, but should probably outline what Gaseous Form does, as a player might not know where to go to look it up.
Needs something more at higher levels. Levels 11-20 aren't so hot.
Mummy's Wrappings:
Note that the standard for DR is to have DR equal to ½ one's HD. This is offering twice that. By 20th, you'll have 6 uses a day for 40 rounds each, or pretty much all the time you'll need in encounters.
Lich's Studies:
The problem with spellcasting is that, basically, it's the best class feature around. It's just so versatile and so powerful that there's really no reason to take anything else.
Stench of Death:
Sickening foes isn't that great, compared to spellcasting or superhigh DR.
Nauseating foes is better (though you'll rarely get people failing that horribly, given it's a fort save), but I think I'd reword it to say "...nauseated for one round and then sickened for 1d6+whatever thereafter."
Ghostly Essence: Pretty much ok. The actual incorporeality comes a bit late though, and then lasts a really long time when it does appear. Consider having the advancement speed up just a smidge.
Death Knight's Combat Training:
I don't like the ability name. "Death Knight's Combat Training" - It's clunky. Shorten it?
It's also kind of weak. A level of spellcasting is worlds above and beyond better than armor proficiencies and a fighter bonus feat.

Phantom (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10461724&postcount=881)
Just to clarify: If a phantom's equipment doesn't turn incorporeal, does that not mean the phantom is unable to move through walls while carrying stuff?
Incorporeal Jaunt is already ~really~ long in duration. Like, at 8HD, you're talking maybe a +6 to a +8 on your highest stat. That's 6-8 minutes, right? Except combat tends to last 1-4 rounds. So you're only really using up a miinute and a half worth in combat, leaving scads of time to spend incorporeal outside of combat. Getting to double it really doesn't make a huge difference, in this case.
Also, having the time limit doubled and then eliminated altogether just 2HD afterward is... startlingly fast. It feels like it should be more gradual than that... except that, again, I stress that the time is so long to start with that it hardly matters anyways.

Justice Archon (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10474880&postcount=941)
Quarry:
Good changes overall, but the "within 50" bit seems like it would be annoying to a DM. Demanding math, more or fairly exacting estimates and the like is just problematic. Like:

DM: "You're about to get on the Roc's back to begin your 3 day journey to the Black Tower. Is there anything you want to do before you leave?"
Justice Archon: "I will assess the distance to my quarry, the Black Empress."
DM: "Oh, uh... let me see. *gets out calculator.*

1/2 an hour later...

DM: "You've just wrapped up your fight against the trio of Gray Peak Wyverns. Your roc mount is poisoned and even with the delay poison spell, it looks as though you may be forced walk the last leg of the journey."

Justice Archon: "How far is to my quarry, now?"

DM: "God damn it... let me see, you flew for two hours and so you went this far, but you went a little off course, so..."

etc, etc.
Shared Fate:
I'm afraid this is one ability I don't like that much. It's just... too prevalent. If we pretend there's a 50:50 success ratios on all saves, then any time there's a save or lose/die/fail/suck effect that includes the Justice Archon, there's a 25% chance the caster or originator of the ability is going to be affected. That, in a game which is driven by its save or ____ effects (especially at higher levels), is really, really, really powerful.
Perhaps limit it to once a day per 5 HD? With the ability not used up if the enemy makes their save?
Alternately, make it an effect that is pre-cast. Like, you affect an enemy with it, and then for any saving throw they demand of you thereafter, they have to save or be affected when you're affected.
I think, once that gets tackled, we should have Gorgon take a look, because it looks fairly good now.

Coure Eladrin (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=10480332#post10480332)
I'll direct Gorgon to this one.

Grick (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10509720&postcount=1208)
High will save seems really weird for the Grick.
And bad reflex save?
Proficiencies: might be worth rewording to "The Grick is proficient only with its own natural weapons."
4 tentacles with +Str each. This doesn't seem so bad at first, given the low damage of each, but it scales really fast. By which I mean that, well, if you've got 19 Str (18 to start +1 racial), you're dealing 5-9 damage per hit, with up to 4 hits on a full attack. So your full attack can potentially deal up to 36 damage at 1st level. This is a bit high, since even half that is probably going to wipe out any equivalent level enemies and you'll be pretty ridiculous in melee in the earliest levels.
State the tentacles are natural weapons?
You say 'initially medium sized', but the Grick, as I see it, doesn't get growth later. The 'initially' isn't needed.
The Grick's tentacles can be enchanted... why? It would make more sense for them to be treated as magical weapons with an enhancement bonus of +1 for every 4HD of the Grick, and only for the purposes of bypassing DR.
Gricks wielding weapons? I just don't see it. They're int 3, they're uncoordinated enough they can't use teamwork, yadda yadda. Besides, it just creates a whole lot of nightmares with gricks wielding 4 weapons from an early level.
A bonus to Hide equal to ½ its HD is enough, when in stony areas. Especially when you've already got Hide as a class skill.
"At 2nd level, Grick gains DR/- equal to ½ HD." - insert 'its' between ½ and HD.
Drag Them Off: Good concept, iffy execution. If the combat is really dangerous enough to warrant dragging off enemies, then spending a full turn just taking a double move probably isn't that useful to your group, even if you're bringing an enemy with.
Scent: A bit boring. I strongly recommend giving the Grick a custom ability tied to scent. For example, the Manticore gains bonus move speed and a pounce attack when it scents the wounded. The Minotaur can use scent to target enemies around corners with its Sudden Charge (that otherwise requires line of sight). The Troll can scent fires. Just something to make the scent a little more unique to the creature, ideally playing off the creature's role.
Chow Down: As with Drag Them Off, it's a good concept, iffy execution. The damage you're putting out is strictly less than you'd do with a tentacle full attack, and the healing is either redundant (you can do an equivalent job of healing yourself out of combat with a wand of vigor or a caster with the spell) or it's a poor use of time in an ongoing combat.
Ambush Predator: I dont like abilities that are restricted to certain environments. It makes for monsters like the Ranger - useful in niche scenarios (or against a given favored enemy) and distinctly less so in every other situation. Broaden it? No penalty to hide while moving full speed is probably fine on its own. Allow for scaling, perhaps allowing it to expand to include move silently?
I like element of surprise. I think, as a capstone, you need to give it just a bit more of an edge.
So all in all, I can see the concept, I can really see where you could take it, but I think it falls short in a lot of areas, and the mess of tentacle attacks at early levels just makes it more of a brute, when there's really room for it to be a real ambush based predator with the ability to separate lone foes from the group. You know what I find myself thinking of? The special infected in Left 4 Dead. They're not that tough on their own, but their ability to really mess with you if you're not skilled enough or if you don't have buddies to help makes them potentially devastating. I'd encourage something along those lines. Like:
Drag them Off: The Grick can move up to half its base land speed or climb speed, regardless of whether it is encumbered, grappling or masticating a foe. It doesn't need to make an opposed move check to move while grappling/masticating.
Masticate (replacing Chow Down): The Grick gains a bite attack. Further, it gains a special improved grab when attacking with just its bite. This doesn't lead into a grapple attack the foe, however, but segues into a Masticate attack, which is like grapple except the Grick chooses either Strength or Dexterity: It and its opponent each make opposed checks using that attribute instead of grapple checks. Further, any time the Grick delivers a bite attack as part of the Masticate attack (that is, in place of the typical unarmed strike), the Grick heals itself for the same amount.
Element of Surprise: The Grick always acts in a surprise round and gains a bonus to initiative checks equal to its Dexterity mod (in addition to that which is already applied). At 12HD, if there wouldn't be a surprise round, there is one anyways, during which only the Grick may act.

Assassin Vine (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10527069&postcount=1249)
"Hey, just going to post this rough draft. Please critique. " -> please delete this line.
Wait, Scio. *checks list* Already have two monsters on the unfinished list (Ettercap & Grick) and this is the third. Can I ask that you please finish your previous two monsters before moving on to the next? Ettercap hasn't even made use of the last critique I gave it, IIRC (which is why it's not even included in this batch critique). Sorry - I just don't want to encourage people adding a ton to the workload.

Sharakim (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10527113&postcount=1250)
Your table formatting is kind of off. Consider replacing your table tag with [Table=Head].
Also, I much prefer bolded names for class features over italicized ones, as it's so much more readable.
RAW, I get +2 to Strength and +1 to Int, or +2 to Int and +1 to Str. This is way too big a stat bonus when we stress de-emphasizing stat boosts at 1st level.
Int for Bluff and Diplomacy feels off. Like, I'm not entirely sold on it. Flavor text would help sell it.
Str mod for concentration, too.
Sucker Punch:
Have to say, I'm not a fan of per-encounter abilities.
What type of AC bonus is this?
What if the Sharakim is in combat with multiple enemies?
Define "currently in combat with the enemy" - melee range? On the same battlefield?
Define offensive action. Would laying down a grease spell count? Summoning a monster with the intent of having it attack the Sharakim at a later date? Or is it just attacks and maneuvers?
You state the Sharakim must make a bluff check but it's only later that you elaborate that it is opposed by a sense motive check (kind of a given, but might bear elaborating).
10HD: Will save or be stunned... at what point? Against the initial, intentionally missed attack, or against the actual 'sucker punch' that happens if they fail to sense motive against the Sharakim?
Prone + Stunned... kind of a murderous combination for any melee to pull off once a combat. This bothers me much more than the save or die.
What does bother me, though, is the sheer number of saves and mechanics being leveraged here. You've got adjusted AC, bluff vs. sense motive, Sharakim's attack with any maneuvers/tricks/spells/initiator techniques added, adjusted to-hit, adjusted damage, will save, reflex save and fort save, all for one trick. That's a supreme pain in the arse.
All in all, I think it's too good a dip. Beguiler and Duskblade salivate at the full BAB + hueg stat bonuses with no loss of caster levels. Beguiler loves the skill changes, and both benefit a great deal from Sucker Punch. It doesn't help that bluff is really easy to stack (Glibness!) and that not every enemy has ranks in sense motive. There needs to be more give and take, because this is a lot better for dipping than many other monsters on the list.

Scio
2011-03-15, 09:05 PM
Sorry about making so many "draft" monsters. I can't seem to find the critique that you're talking about. Could you please point it out to me?

Hyudra
2011-03-15, 09:38 PM
I'm not sure what a 'draft' monster is.

As far as the Ettercap, looks like the feller sort of fell through the cracks. I initially skipped it because it hadn't been updated in such a long time (For over 15 pages of the thread), then skipped it repeatedly because it hadn't been updated since the last critique. It looks like you did get around to it on the 26th, though. Not 100% sure why I put it on the 'wasn't edited since last critique' list.

Ettercap (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10249821&postcount=152)
I think this is supposed to be a reinterpretation of an Ettercap. It's spooky and gives that aberration vibe, to be sure: http://i51.tinypic.com/2mgoap3.jpg - Just thought I'd share.
Class skills: Ride seems out of place. As does concentration.
Claw attacks: What kind of bonus to damage (½ Str mod? Str mod? 2x Str mod?)
The Web description kind of implies enemies don't get a reflex save as per the entangle spell. This needs clarification, as you might be intending not to emulate an entangle spell, but to emulate the entangled status effect.
The DC to escape webs should be the same as standard saving throws in this thread. That is, 10 + ½ HD + Ettercap {stat} mod.
Second level really kind of sucks. I mean, you're getting a very passive class feature that only has a 50% chance to work, which is very backloaded... so combat will probably be over by the time the worst of the poison hits. Topping it off, the poison scales badly, as it becomes less and less useful as you gain levels, since more and more enemies will have some form of immunity or resistance to it. It needs a bit more to sell it. Either a side effect or more reliability to it.
Spider Companion: I like it. The wording is confusing though. "An Ettercap's effective druid level is its HD-3, except at third level, when the Ettercap has an effective Druid Level of 1." - but you get this at third level, so why get into the 'except at third level' bit? I just can't figure out your meaning here.
Consider, rather than just referring to simulated druid levels, just copying the relevant text.
The 'instead of a normal animal companion progression, the monstrous spider can grow in size category' bit is a little confusing too. What does it keep (HD? BAB advancement? Stat bonuses?) and what does it lose, by taking this path? Again, would benefit from copying and editing the relevant text for your animal companion.
What happens if you take levels in ranger? Do you get another animal companion?

Makiru
2011-03-15, 10:50 PM
No suggestions for "Avatar of Destruction"? Oh, well, guess I'll keep wracking my brain on it until something comes up. I could post the rest of the class if that would be alright. Like I said before, everything is finished except for the capstone.

Hyudra
2011-03-15, 11:09 PM
No suggestions for "Avatar of Destruction"? Oh, well, guess I'll keep wracking my brain on it until something comes up. I could post the rest of the class if that would be alright. Like I said before, everything is finished except for the capstone.

Would personally rather you only posted completed classes, but it's up to you.

Try throwing together a placeholder ability for the meantime, stress that you want to replace it in comments, and go with it?

Gorgondantess
2011-03-16, 12:10 AM
Phase Wasp: I think you might've missed the forest for the trees there, my friend. In other words: you did the grammar fixes, but not the actual class fixes that I suggested. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10506149&postcount=1199) I won't hold it against you, though, as it's the 2nd to last post.

Unbodied: See above link for my critique, which has not been responded to yet, as far as I'm aware.

Coure:
Well, let's see here...
Sleep: Hmmm... not sure I like this, making it maximum HD up to twice the Coure's. I'd do something more along the lines of equal to the Coure's HD plus the Coure's charisma modifier. Sleep is a potent effect.
We have a standardized "Eladrin" ability, found under both the Ghaele and the Bralani. It should be gained at 2nd level.
"Any such attacks made by the coure suffer a 20% miss chance."
1st of all, one shouldn't be punished for leveling up. Second of all, just what attacks CAN a coure make while in this form? It's never specified.
Also, the wording there seems to imply that it's only attacks made by the coure that are force effects, ghost touch, etc. that suffer a miss chance.
Magic Circle Against Evil: Generally you don't want to give spells before an equivalent fullcaster could get them. That's a 3rd level spell right there. It'd probably be best to start at protection from evil, then give it out to a 5' radius at 3 HD, +5' every 3 HD thereafter. Something like that.
Other than that? Talk about a rogue-type on crack. You've got all sorts of stealthy/infiltration abilities... and nothing else, really. That's generally not a good thing.

Benly
2011-03-16, 12:38 AM
Sleep: Hmmm... not sure I like this, making it maximum HD up to twice the Coure's. I'd do something more along the lines of equal to the Coure's HD plus the Coure's charisma modifier. Sleep is a potent effect.


The reason I chose double was so that it would be guaranteed to smoothly scale upwards, from 4 to 6 to 8 at 2-3-4. HD + Cha would be less for a low-Cha coure at level 3 than at the level before.

That said, the main reason I thought this was justified is that enemies with poor Will save scale up in HD much faster than in CR. Enemies with lower HD tend to be caster-types with nigh-unbreakable Will saves. The result is that this becomes very strong from 3-5 or so and settles back down after this. If, with that considered, you still think it's too much, we can probably figure something out.


We have a standardized "Eladrin" ability, found under both the Ghaele and the Bralani. It should be gained at 2nd level.

I was under the impression that the existing Ghaele Eladrin monster class was depreciated and considered one of the most broken classes of the Oslecamo period, so I didn't use it as a point of standardization. Is this incorrect?


"Any such attacks made by the coure suffer a 20% miss chance."
1st of all, one shouldn't be punished for leveling up. Second of all, just what attacks CAN a coure make while in this form? It's never specified.
Also, the wording there seems to imply that it's only attacks made by the coure that are force effects, ghost touch, etc. that suffer a miss chance.

It's not a punishment for leveling up, it's a side effect of using this specific active ability. The miss chance for the coure while insubstantial remains static until it is replaced by normal Incorporeal rules. As for what attacks can be made, the original creature can use all its normal abilities and attacks in this form. I will clarify that and the wording of which attacks suffer a miss chance - grammatically it's clear but I can see it being confusing on a quick read.


Magic Circle Against Evil: Generally you don't want to give spells before an equivalent fullcaster could get them. That's a 3rd level spell right there. It'd probably be best to start at protection from evil, then give it out to a 5' radius at 3 HD, +5' every 3 HD thereafter. Something like that.

The duration is one-tenth that of the spell, making it a panic button rather than the long-duration buff the spell is normally used as. It can't be used the same way the spell is until some levels after the spell would normally be obtained. Given that it's a "panic button" ability, the area of effect seemed more suitable. I wouldn't mind reducing the radius at lower levels, though.


Other than that? Talk about a rogue-type on crack. You've got all sorts of stealthy/infiltration abilities... and nothing else, really. That's generally not a good thing.

It gets size modifiers and the alternate form - both admittedly significant, but not exactly "all sorts of stealth abilities". The spell-likes are not generally stealth/infiltration abilities, either. It doesn't strike me as being massively more ninja during its class levels than, say, a whisper gnome rogue - certainly on the high end for sneaky types but not outside the realm of existing feasibility.

TheGeckoKing
2011-03-16, 12:24 PM
Kinda making these short and sweet, but here we go:

Vivisector (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10219990&postcount=129)
Strongly recommend you make use of Psyborg's grammar/polish review service. He'll PM you a revised copy of your monster with grammar/spelling/format errors fixed.
Done so already. Mind you, if there are little things, it's because I went back and made slight edits.
I don't think Vivisector should get light armor proficiency. The base creature has natural armor (and a small deflection bonus).
Go figure. Well, learning IS half the battle, and so is reading properly. Will rectify.

Aboleth (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10367328&postcount=473)
Strongly encourage you to take Psyborg up on his offer to review & fix up grammar/spelling/format issues through your post & send the revised version to you by PM.
I shall ask him to do that when I feel the crunch is sorted out, but I don't think it's that ready.
Drowning Ooze: 1 foot thick? D&D, by and large, works in measures of 5 feet. What circumstances would cause one to be affected by the ooze with 5' radius where 1' radius wouldn't? Clarify.
"lose the ability to exist on land properly for the next minute." - kinda vague.
No, i'm just being lazy/sloppy. I'll clarify.


Replies in bold, as usual.

Hyudra
2011-03-16, 01:39 PM
Frostwind Virago
http://i55.tinypic.com/2lnu61j.jpg
Monster Class
Monster Manual V

Class:
HD: D6

{table=head]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|
Special|
Frostwind Powers

1st|
+0|
+0|
+2|
+2|Frostwind Virago Body, Caress of the Frozen, Frostwind Powers (Least)|
1

2nd|
+1|
+0|
+3|
+3|Frostbite Touch I, Glamour|
2

3rd|
+2|
+1|
+3|
+3|Faeriekind|
2

4th|
+3|
+1|
+4|
+4| Frigid Demesnes |
3

5th|
+3|
+1|
+4|
+4|Kiss of the Frozen|
3

6th|
+4|
+2|
+5|
+5|Frostwind Powers (Lesser)|
4

7th|
+5|
+2|
+5|
+5|Frostbite Touch II|
4

8th|
+6|
+2|
+6|
+6|Faeriekith|
5

9th|
+6|
+3|
+6|
+6|Embrace of the Frozen|
5

10th|
+7|
+3|
+7|
+7|Cold Hearted|
6

11th|
+8|
+3|
+7|
+7|Frostbite Touch III, Frostwind Powers (Greater)|
7

12th|
+9|
+4|
+8|
+8|Faerieblood|
7

13th|
+9|
+4|
+8|
+8|Cold Hearted II |
8

14th|
+10|
+4|
+9|
+9|Ardour of the Frozen|
8

15th|
+11|
+5|
+9|
+9|Faerie Noble|
9

16th|
+12|
+5|
+10|
+10|Frostbite Touch IV, Frostwind Powers (Elite)|
10[/table]

Skill Points: (6 + Int modifier) per level, x4 at first level.
Class Skills: The Frostwind Virago’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Diplomacy (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Hide (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (Any two, Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Sense Motive (Wis), Spot (Wis), Survival (Wis), Swim (Str).

Proficiencies: The Frostwind Virago is proficient with simple weapons and is not proficient with armor or shields.

Frostwind Virago Body: The Frostwind Virago loses all other racial bonuses and takes on the Fey type. She gains Fey traits, namely low light vision. Frostwind Viragos are medium sized creatures with a base land speed of 30', possessing two Frostbite Touches that operate as natural weapons delivering 1 + Cha modifier cold damage. Frostbite Touches are touch attacks, and cannot benefit from Power Attack. Frostwind Viragos have Natural Armor equal to their Con modifier.

A Frostwind Virago has her choice of two of the following as her starting languages: Auran, Common, Elven, Sylvan. Otherwise, she gets additional languages for a high Int score as normal.

Caress of the Frozen: Starting at first level the Frostwind Virago gains cold resistance equal to double her HD. She suffers no penalties for moving through heavy snow and is not dealt nonlethal damage nor is she fatigued by cold environments.

Frostwind Powers, Least: The Frostwind Virago gains access to spell like abilities that she can use at will. These spell like abilities, unless otherwise noted, are standard actions that provoke attacks of opportunity. They are able to be disrupted, cast defensively or warded against with spell resistance. Frostwind Powers have a caster level equal to the Frostwind Virago's class level. Given that they are not actual spells, feats or abilities (such as metamagic feats) that apply to spells do not apply to Frostwind Powers. Feats or abilities that affect spell like abilities (such as Quicken Spell-Like Ability) or abilities (such as Ability Focus) can benefit Frostwind Powers.

There are four grades of Frostwind Power; Least, Lesser, Greater and Elite, which become available at 1st, 6th, 11th and 16th levels. The Frostwind Virago gains new powers, chosen from available grades, with most levels in the class. At any level she learns a new power, the Frostwind Virago may replace an old power with another power of the same or lower grade.

Frostwind Powers are subject to arcane spell failure chance. For the purposes of meeting feat and prestige class prerequisites, Frostwind Powers count as being invocations or arcane spells of an equivalent level.

Powers are listed in greater detail here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10568249&postcount=1313). Least Frostwind Powers are listed in brief here:

Boreal Whirlwind: The Frostwind Virago calls forth a whirlwind of snow and ice that grows each round. She may send it rushing forward in a straight line, whereupon it damages and disorients foes it passes over.

Capricious Winds: The Frostwind Virago bids the wind to impede the movement of a foe for each round she concentrates. The foe can attempt to break free of the effect, but if they fail, the Frostwind Virago can take advantage of their being off balance and send them flying.

Chill Metal: As the spell, but the effect is extended in cold climates.

Frozen Fabrication: The Frostwind Virago can take a handful of ice and fashion it into a common item. Weapons and ammunition so created deal cold damage but are fragile and uncomfortable to hold.

Glacial Blast: A cone shaped blast of ice water that chills foes and potentially fatigues or exhausts them. Covers the affected area in ice.

Icicles: The Frostwind Virago calls forth a number of massive icicles that manifest on the ceiling above and drop onto any foe passing beneath.

Manifest Ice: The Frostwind Virago creates a swathe of icy terrain, or uses a Stone Shape like effect that only affects ice and snow.

Seal of Ice: The Frostwind Virago creates a tracing of frost that highlights magic in the affected area and makes both the spell effects and incorporeal creatures solid and vulnerable to attack.

Sudden Snowstorm: As Obscuring Mist, but when the effect ends, the area is covered in snow.

Thief of Air: The Frostwind Virago steals the very air from an opponent's lungs.

Whispering Wind: The winds carry voices to the Frostwind Virago, regardless of distance or intervening materials. Further, she may send them out to scout and bring her back information in their cryptic manner.

Frostbite Touch I: At second level, the very touch of the Frostwind Virago's fingers sends patterns of frost dancing across the surface of metal and makes flesh turn hard and blue in the span of a heartbeat. Her Frostbite Touches now deliver 1d6 + Cha mod cold damage. Further, she gains the option of having her Frostbite Touches be treated as normal attacks rather than touch attacks. If she does so, she deals a bonus 1d6 slashing, piering or bludgeoning damage and adds her Str mod to damage, but loses any Cha mod bonus to damage as well as further effects of Frostbite Touch (as described in Frostbite Touch II, III and IV).

For the purposes of qualifying for feats or prestige classes, the Frostwind Virago's Frostbite Touch can be considered an Eldritch Blast of a Warlock with the same number of class levels as she has in Frostwind Virago.

Glamour: The Frostwind Virago, at second level, gains the protections innate to the Fey, shrouding herself in protective workings of glamour that only cold iron can reliably cut through. So long as she is unarmored or clad in light armor, she gains DR equal to ½ her HD, penetrated by cold iron.

Faeriekind: At third level the Frostwind Virago can use the glamour that is the heritage of the fey. Glamour is the forerunner of illusion magic and serves as the ultimate font of a fey's power. The Frostwind Virago may elect to be a Unbound Fey or a Fey of the Court. The Unbound Fey may use either Disguise Self or Silent Image once a day per 2HD (one or the other, not once a day each). The Unbound Fey gains Bluff (Cha) as a class skill and while she receives none of the advantages granted by the court, she is not restricted in word or deed, as described below.

The Frostwind Virago who follows the strictures of the Court gains the ability to, once a day per 2 HD, use one of the following augmented spell like abilities (one or the other, not once a day per 2HD each):
Disguise Self, but a creature that interacts with her only shakes the foundations of the effect, and doesn't get a will save until a round later, and only then if the Frostwind Virago is still present and visible. If she wishes, she may spend another use of her Glamour in the interim to preserve the effect without allowing the will save.
Silent Image, but the effect lasts 1d3 rounds after the Virago ceases concentrating. Again, a creature that interacts with it only shakes the foundations of the effect, and doesn't get a will save to disbelieve until a round later, and only then if the creature is still perceiving the illusion.
The Virago, however, is consequently bound by the laws of the Faerie Court, those selfsame laws that prevented infighting from destroying them a millenia ago. A Frostwind Virago may obscure the truth, mislead or sidestep a question, but may not lie outright. As an extension of this, any promise or bargain made by the Frostwind Virago is binding, and a breaking of that promise renders the Frostwind Virago forsworn for a fortnight and a day (15 days) per HD.

A Frostwind Virago that lies is unable to use her Faeriekind, Faeriekith, Faerieblood and Faerie Noble abilities for 48 hours and Fey, Elemental and Outsiders immediately recognize her as a betrayer of her word for the duration, each being a step more hostile towards her. For another 48 hours thereafter, the Frostwind Virago gains none of the special benefits for being a Fey of the Court. Following this period (96 hours total), the SLAs work as normal.

A forsworn Frostwind Virago receives the penalties described for lying, above, along with suffering a -2 penalty to saving throws against any ability, spell or effect used against her by Fey, Elemental or Outsider. These penalties do not end after 96 hours, however, and persist until the duration passes (15 days per HD), until she can fulfill her end of the promise or until she throws herself on the mercy of a Fey of higher station (typically a Fey of higher CR than her own HD) and then convince them (usually requiring a diplomacy check and/or a bargain) to grant her a task that she may perform in contrition. Given these consequences, most Fey of the Court are loathe to offer any promises or bargains that do not overwhelmingly benefit them.

Frigid Demesnes: Beginning at fourth level the Frostwind Virago affects the climate around her when using her Frostwind Powers. As she wields Frostwind Powers that create snow or ice or wind, the environment is chilled as cold fog and frigid air spread out from the affected area. There are eight stages of climate, and uses of most Frostwind Powers have a chance of lowering the local temperature by one step (ie. From comfortable to chilly, chilly to cold, see the table below) and blasting all opponents on the battlefield with chilled air. There is a 20% chance for Least Frostwind Powers, a 40% chance for Lesser Frostwind Powers, a 60% chance for Greater Frostwind Powers and a 100% chance for Elite Frostwind Powers to trigger the Frigid Demesnes effect. The descriptions of individual powers note whether that power offers the Frigid Demesnes benefit. The Frostwind Virago may suppress this power any time she uses an invocation.

Cold weather, over a set duration noted on the table below, deals nonlethal damage that cannot be recovered until the chilled individual gets somewhere where the temperature is at least comfortable. Each iteration of nonlethal damage allows a Fortitude saving throw (DC 10 + ½ Frostwind Virago HD + Frostwind Virago's Cha) to prevent the damage entirely. Those taking nonlethal damage from cold weather are beset with frostbite and/or hypothermia (treat as Fatigue, this does not stack with itself to create exhaustion, but does stack with other sources of fatigue) until such a time as the nonlethal damage is healed.

The individual stages of cold are as follows:

{table=head]Environment is...|Temperature|Effect
Severe Heat|> 120° F|See SRD.
Very Hot|90 to 119° F|See SRD.
Hot|85 to 89° F|No real effects, can't recover from heat damage.
Comfortable|65 to 85° F|No effects
Chilly|41 to 64° F|No real effects, but too cool to recover from cold damage.
Cold|1 to 40° F|1d6 nonlethal every hour*
Severe Cold|-19 to 0° F|1d6 nonlethal every 10 minutes.
Extreme Cold|< -20° F|1d6 cold with no save, and 1d4 nonlethal every minute.**[/table]
* - Those dressed for cold weather automatically pass all saves for cold weather, but not for colder temperatures.
** - Those in extreme cold weather who wear armor or are in direct contact with metal are also affected as if by a chill metal spell.

Every time the effect triggers, the local temperature drops by one step and every foe in area suffers 1d6 nonlethal damage for every step the temperature is below Comfortable. This is limited to a maximum of a one step drop below the current norm for every 3HD the Frostwind Virago has. Foes that are damaged by this are fatigued as though they had succumbed to the effects of the weather (described above). If the effect would trigger and the temperature is already Extreme, all foes in the area instead suffer 4d6 cold damage and are exhausted, with already exhausted foes becoming paralyzed for 1d3 rounds.

The Frostwind Virago, her allies and any creature that is resistant to cold are all immune to the nonlethal damage caused by cold weather.

The lowering of temperature takes effect in a 200' radius around the targeted location, traveling around corners and occupying the entirety of the area where air is free to circulate (a closet with a closed door would be safe until the door opened, but an adjacent room would be affected). The immediate damage affects all within line of sight to the target area.

In a closed area, such as a building, room or hallway, the temperature persists for 1 hour, at which point it warms up by one stage. Outdoors, the effect lasts for 10 minutes, after which point the cold air dissipates into the surrounding region.

Kiss of the Frozen: Beginning at fifth level the Frostwind Virago can grant a kiss to an ally, often a gentle pressing of her lips to their forehead, nose or snout, granting them a measure of protection from her powers. With this gesture, the Frostwind Virago may bestow a willing individual with half her cold resistance for 24 hours. The capricious Frostwind Virago may retract the granted benefits at any time as a swift action. When the effect ends, whether by the end of the duration or the whim of the Virago, the victim must save against any ongoing cold weather effects or suffer the consequences of a failed save immediately. Further, the individual takes double damage (both nonlethal and lethal) from cold and cold weather effects for one minute afterward.

Alternately, the Frostwind Virago may deliver a Kiss of the Frozen offensively against a target. This attack my only be made against a helpless or grappled target, and bestows the negative effect described above.

Frostwind Powers, Lesser: Starting at sixth level, the Frostwind Virago may select her Frostwind Powers from the list of Lesser Frostwind Powers, in addition to the list of Least Frostwind Powers. Lesser Frostwind Powers are noted here:

Cold Snap: With a snap of her fingers, the Frostwind Virago causes all ice in her vicinity to shatter explosively, damaging foes nearby. Sufficiently frozen foes may shatter as well, to grisly effect.

Cresting Iceberg: The Frostwind Virago raises an iceberg from the soil. Foes too slow to react may have a limb trapped within the small glacier. She may also expand a pre-existing iceberg in size, potentially burying any foe who has failed to free themselves from earlier entrapment in a clear icy tomb.

Crystal Column: The Frostwind Virago summons a pillar of ice from a nearby surface. Used gently, it can raise an ally to safety, form a bridge or bar a path. Used violently, it can fling enemies into the air or slam them into a wall.

Frostflight: The Frostwind Virago gains the ability to fly.

Gelid Blade: The Frostwind Virago enchants a weapon to deal icy damage and be treated as a magic weapon. On a critical hit, it can deal massive Dexterity damage.

Hailing Volley: The Frostwind Virago releases a volley of icy spears that fills a target area, potentially dealing catastrophic damage (and potentially none). The area is littered with dangerous icy spikes thereafter.

Ice Sculpture: A sculpture of ice is given life with a drop of the Frostwind Virago's blood, acting as a summoned monster.

Mistral Attendant: Summon augmented Unseen Servants.

Roaring Squall: The Frostwind Virago summons or controlls a mischievous air spirit. Enemies touched by the spirit may be flung a distance and potentially knocked prone.

Zephyr: The Frostwind Virago enchants all nearby allies, herself included, with spirits of air that offer a minor boost to movement. These spirits may be extinguished to grant the user a few heartbeats of flight.


Frostbite Touch II: Starting at seventh level the Frostwind Virago can augment her Frostbite Touch with a numbing cold. The Virago may elect to deal a bonus 1d6 nonlethal damage with her Frostbite Touch, but the rest of the damage dealt becomes nonlethal damage as well. This damage is reduced by cold resistance.

Faeriekith: Upon reaching eighth level the Frostwind Virago gains the ability to use Charm Monster as an SLA, drawing from those selfsame uses of Glamour that power her Disguise Self and Silent Image SLAs.

If she elected for the Fey of the Court option in Glamour (see above) then she increases the DC for her Charm Monster by +4 and eliminates any bonus for being threatened by the Virago or her companions when casting it on any individual or creature that both knows her name and either vocally gives thanks or states they owes her a favor. If she is disguised or going by a different name, then the favor (or the thanking of the Frostwind Virago, which implies gratitude, or owing a favor) isn't truly directed at her and is insufficient for her to work her binding of their words to their deeds.

Finally, her Silent Image is replaced by a Major Image SLA. Major Image is unaffected by the Frostwind Virago's choice of being Unbound or Court.

Embrace of the Frozen: The ninth level Frostwind Virago augments her Frostwind Powers with flurries of snow and showers of tiny ice crystals that billow out from the affected area and batter foes in the surroundings. Anytime a Frostwind Power is used on an area or a target, or anytime a Frostwind Power creates something (be it a summoned creature or a terrain feature), every individual within the affected area suffers the Shivering condition for one round or until they leave the area. Shivering foes suffer a -2 penalty to attack rolls, saving throws, skill checks and ability checks. Environmentally, the effect obscures line of sight for one round, and all tiles within range are covered in snow. This effect may be suppressed as a free action.

Cold Hearted: Beginning at tenth level the Frostwind Virago is untouched by even the coldest climes. She becomes immune to cold. She has effective Cold Resistance 20 for the purpose of her Kiss of the Frozen ability.

Frostbite Touch III: Starting at eleventh level the Frostwind Virago improves her Frostbite Touch. Rather than simply add her Cha mod to damage dealt, she now she adds her Cha mod to damage done for every die of damage delivered by her Frostbite Touch. This bonus damage is of whatever type of damage the aforementioned die dealt (For example, Cha mod in cold damage for every d6 of cold damage dealt, Cha mod in nonlethal damage for every d6 of nonlethal damage dealt). Precision damage (such as that from Sneak Attack) is excepted from this.

She also gains the option of freezing swelled, bruised and stiff tissue solid. Foregoing damage entirely, the Virago may make a touch attack against a foe in melee range. By doing so, she can remove all nonlethal damage from that target and subsequently cause 1 point of Dexterity damage for every 3 points of nonlethal damage removed, rounding up. A foe brought to 0 Dexterity by this effect is frozen solid for 1 minute and is shattered to thousands of crystalline pieces the next time they take bludgeoning damage.

This conversion advances to 1 point of Dexterity damage for every 2 points of nonlethal damage removed at 15HD, and 1 point of Dexterity damage delivered for every 1 point of nonlethal damage removed at 20HD.

Frostwind Powers, Greater: Upon reaching eleventh level the Frostwind Virago may select her Frostwind Powers from the list of Greater Frostwind Powers, in addition to the lists of Least and Lesser Frostwind Powers. The Greater Frostwind Powers are:

Avalanche: The Frostwind Virago creates a tide of ice and snow, smothering enemies.

Bloodrime: Exploiting a victim's bleeding wounds, the Frostwind Virago turns blood to ice, opening injuries. Used in a benign fashion, grants a creature the cold subtype.

Crosswinds: As Gust of Wind, but also spreads snow and hampers the maneuverability of flying creatures.

Cryokinesis: As Telekinesis, but works on ice, snow and frozen targets only. Can lift more than a Telekinesis user of the same caster level.

Snowdrift: A patch of snow becomes similar to quicksand, with entrapped creatures forced to scramble to climb out. Failure means being sucked beneath the snow and ice.

Snowflurry Step: The Frostwind Virago can teleport short distances, with an increasing risk of failure as the distance grows. Should she teleport to ice or snow, the risk of failure drastically reduces.

Faerieblood: At twelfth level, the Frostwind Virago can use Scrying and True Seeing as SLAs, each activated with two of the glamour uses that fuel her Major Image, Disguise Self and Charm Monster SLAs. Should she be a Faerie of the Court, she also gains the ability to use Bestow Curse by spending two uses of her Glamour, but only against an individual who has insulted her, attacked her or stolen from her three times, with her verbally marking the offense between each such event. Alternately, she may use Bestow Curse on an opponent against which she has thrice counted coup without the opponent doing the same to her. 'Coup' in this case marks an occasion where the Frostwind Virago has defeated, humiliated or markedly inconvenienced a foe and verbally marked the event (typically by mocking the foe, demanding they submit to her will or warning them). Most instances where the Frostwind Virago demands a saving throw or skill check of the enemy and the enemy fails will suffice.

Finally, her Disguise Self glamour is replaced by Seeming.

Cold Hearted II: Beginning at thirteenth level the Frostwind Virago can augment her Frostwind Powers and Frostbite Touch so they can penetrate the defenses of even other creatures who are immune to cold. Her attacks ignore cold resistance and deal half damage to creatures who are immune to cold. Further, affected creatures are stripped of their protections against the cold weather for one minute, with this duration being doubled every time the Frostwind Virago deals cold damage to them. (Two minutes for the second hit, four for the third, and so on).

Ardour of the Frozen: At fourteenth level the Frostwind Virago learns to draw in her foes with a Captivating Call. This requires a standard action and is a sonic, language based, mind affecting ability. The Frostwind Virago speaks in an imperious voice that echoes across the landscape. Every individual within a range of 300' must make a will save (DC 10 + ½ HD + Frostwind Virago's Cha) or become captivated. Captivated individuals walk toward the Frostwind Virago taking the most direct route possible. If that path is clearly dangerous, the affected may make another saving throw against the effect. Foes that reach the Frostwind Virago stop within 5' of her to bask in her radiance, taking no actions except to defend themselves. This lasts as long as the Frostwind Virago speaks and for 1d3 rounds thereafter. A bard's countersong counters this effect.

Faerie Noble: At fifteenth level, the Frostwind Virago counts herself among the more powerful of the fey, and acquires the ability to fashion accommodations befitting her status in the upper echelon of the Faerie. She may cast Mirage Arcana by spending four of the same uses that power her Scrying, True Seeing, Major Image, Seeming and Charm Monster SLAs. Further, so long as her Mirage Arcana persists and portrays an image of ice, snow or the like (including those as grand as a frozen tower, an ice-blasted archway, a snow-whipped clifftop) each step of cold weather generated by her Frozen Demesnes ability will persist for one day in the area. The Mirage Arcana effect will persist as long as the temperature remains below Comfortable.

For a Faerie of the Court, this Mirage Arcana becomes reality after a year and a day. This need not be one continuous use, but the effect is broken if a sentient creature other than the Frostwind Virago intrudes upon the area when the spell duration has lapsed or if a creature disbelieves it. Valuable goods (such as gold, gemstones, mithral) become ice if taken from an area where the Mirage Arcana became reality. A Faerie of the Court also gains the ability to Geas, rather than charm monster, a creature or individual that has broken a promise to her or betrayed a bargain, casting the effect with a one-round casting time.

Frostbite Touch IV: At sixteenth level, the Frostwind Virago's touch is devastating, passing through flesh as though it were barely there, her fingertips brushing past frozen flesh, crystals of frozen flesh spraying off in their wake. Her Frozen Touch deals an additional 1d6 cold (+Cha mod, as described in Frostbite Touch III) damage. As detailed in Frostbite Touch II, above, she may also elect to deal 3d6 nonlethal damage, with her Cha mod in bonus nonlethal damage for every d6 of damage done. Precision damage is still excepted from this.

Frostwind Powers, Elite: Upon reaching sixteenth level the Frostwind Virago may select her Frostwind Powers from the list of Elite Frostwind Powers, in addition to the lists of Least and Lesser and Greater Frostwind Powers. The Elite Frostwind Powers are:

Crack the Ice: The Frostwind Virago creates a pool of ice that serves as a portal to the Faerie/Feywilds/Fair Court. Foes may be dragged in by the water or dragged under, and suffer Strength and Constitution damage. Those caught beneath when the portal closes are trapped in another plane.

Mindnumbing Aura: Foes near the Frostwind Virago are forced to delay their actions as the cold saps their initiative and energy.

North Wind: A powerful and wide ranging blast of windstorm-level wind that extends her Frozen Demesnes ability over a landscape and is especially effective at chilling larger foes.

Still of Winter: The Frostwind Virago stills the frozen air, causing foes to be Stilled, an effect similar to but more deleterious than being Slowed. Those who are not stilled are nonetheless Slowed as the third level spell.

Comments
Not especially well polished as I post this, but for a monster as extensive as the Frostwind Virago, it's hard to polish on my own. Split into two posts, as the Frostwind Power ability descriptions were lengthy enough to warrant a post of their own (I exceeded the 50k character limit).

Ok, so the Frostwind Virago is a fey based around ice and cold. I went out of my way to emphasize Fey aspects, as I think the Faerie are really done a disservice in D&D. There's so much rich lore in Fantasy for the Fair Folk and D&D barely does anything with that. However, as much as I wanted to emphasize that bargaining and the whole 'you don't screw with the Fey', I left an avenue to avoid it should DMs feel it would detract from the quality of the game. So you get a choice of the Unbound Fey (unchanged) and the Fey of the Court, which emphasizes deals, fairness, and exploiting those who give you an opening.

As far as actual powers go, the Frostwind Virago is very similar to the Warlock. That said, she's very much a battlefield controller, and this is emphasized by her Frigid Demesnes and Embrace of the Frozen abilities, which give an added depth to her invocation Frostwind Power use. I named them Frostwind Powers rather than invocations, by the by, to avoid situations like what cropped up with Dragonfire Adept and Warlock, where the invocations of the two were interpreted by some as being more or less interchangeable.

I do think the Frostwind Virago is powerful, even if her Frostbite Touch is less of a big deal to her than the Eldritch Blast is to the Warlock. So yeah, she's more powerful than the Warlock, but since the goal is a Tier 2-3 individual and the Warlock is low-Tier-4ish, I'm okay with that. On top of her invocations having the augmentations of Frigid Demesnes and Embrace of the Frozen, they're aimed at being a little more versatile overall. The overall lists are shorter, though (no eldritch essence invocations and 25% less invocations at each stage), so that keeps things a touch more sane.

All in all, a battlefield controller with some Fey-suited SLAs to fall back on, a cold theme and a little more meat on her mechanical bones than her Warlock cousin.

Changelog
April 18, 2011:
Frostwind Virago:
Added Frostwind Virago Body to the table under 1st level. Was absent.
For the purposes of meeting feat and prestige class prerequisites, Frostwind Powers count as being invocations and spells of an equivalent level.
Ditto for Frostbite Touch being considered an Eldritch Blast.
Frigid Demesnes tweaked. It now allows no saving throw (less rolls and a bit of a boost in power) and the nonlethal damage is equal to the number of steps below comfortable, with an extreme effect (cold damage and exhaustion/paralysis) if it would drop the temperature below Extreme. Text about the range and scope of the effect clarified, the Frostwind Virago gets the option of not activating Frigid Demesnes and the effect overall has been made more concise and easy to apply.
Kiss of the Frozen simplified. It no longer affects a maximum 1 ally per hour, and the penalty to the Frostwind Virago has been removed. An offensive option has been added, allowing the Frostwind Virago to curse a helpless or grappled foe, causing them to suffer double cold and nonlethal damage.
Embrace of the Frozen: Renamed Shaken to Shivering, which is essentially the same thing except not a morale effect and it doesn't graduate to fear/panic, etc.
Embrace of the Frozen: Noted that the snow clouds it creates obscure line of sight. This makes its use a little more tactical/strategic-based, as the Frostwind Virago can obscure line of sight for herself or her allies (as well as foes).
Noted under Frostbite Touch I that the physical damage option precludes use of other augmentations, to avoid some unintended interactions.
Moved the 'you can convert nonlethal damage to Dexterity damage' option from Frostbite Touch II to Frostbite Touch III, which was otherwise a little dry (Frostbite Touch II has a tactical depth to it, while III was just flat passive gain). Added a progression so that, at 15HD, the conversion is 1 Dexterity damage for every 2 points of nonlethal damage removed, and at 20HD, it becomes 1:1.
Clarified Faerie Noble's Mirage Arcana effect to make it more flexible. If she's depicting snow, ice or a frozen structure, it extends the duration of cold weather, and cold weather, in turn, prevents the Mirage Arcana from ending so long as it lasts. This makes it easier to maintain the effect.
Also added a bit under the 'making it permanent' section for Faerie of the Court; you can let the effect lapse, but if a creature intrudes on the area before it does lapse or if someone disbelieves it, you lose your progress.
Added a link to the Frostwind Powers post under Frostwind Powers (Least).
Frostwind Powers:
Finished sentence under Boreal Whirlwind. Foes moving into the whirlwind are damaged and disoriented as though they had been struck by the moving version.
Capricious Winds now imposes a penalty on ranged attacks (double penalty for ranged weapons).
Specified that items created with Frozen Fabrication must be rigid, and gave an example.
Clarified that the Icicles invocation requires a ranged touch attack roll, rather than 'just her BAB'
Many clarifications made to Seal of Ice, essentially specifying what spells can be affected and how, adding durations and clarification on how the spells are made visible (essentially clarifying that it's like everyone had detect magic for the purposes of viewing the spell.
Changed Cold Snap so it deals damage once for every square that has ice in it. No 100's of marbles exploding for 1000d6+ damage.
Made a note at the top of the list that all saves are cha based, yadda yadda, and removed the repetitive mention of Save DCs, except where funny stuff happened (such as where it was the DC for a strength check)
Changed Frostflight from offering a fly speed of 10' per 3HD to 10' per 2HD.
Hailing Volley: upped the damage from 1d6 piercing/cold per HD to 1d6 piercing per HD and 1d6 cold per HD.
Ice Sculpture now only fatigues/exhausts if the Frostwind Virago already has a monster summoned with it.
Clarified text in Roaring Squall to specify that the squall is a small creature for the purposes of attacks of opportunity.
Zephyr now, in addition to being able to be spent for temporary flight, grants you another two options - a bonus to AC against ranged attacks or a bonus to an attack roll against a flying enemy.
Added another qualifier to Cryokinesi, so anyone affected by one of the Frostwind Virago's powers (SLA or Frostwind Power) also qualifies to be thrown around.
Mistral Attendant is now a Lesser Frostwind Power, and scales up more gradually in how many unseen servants you can have (From a flat maximum of 3 to 1 per 6HD)
Made it so that Snowflurry Step doesn't count the first 5' of movement (to avoid having it be limited to an awkward distance of 90' or 95'). The chance is now halved again if both the starting and destination square are covered in snow or ice (to 2.5% per 5' moved).
Avalanche is moved from Elite Frostwind Power to Greater. I'm not changing the line of effect (which draws from enemy to snow) because the reverse option is overly confusing, suggesting one should draw a line for every instance of snow, which would be incredibly time consuming. It's a check, more than anything. I added a bit to one sentence to clarify such.
Added Still of Winter to make up for the absence of Avalanche. This is a targeted burst effect that slaps an augmented Slow effect onto all foes in the area. All actions made by Stilled foes are one step more difficult to make (Move actions are now standard, standard actions are full-round, and so on).
Replaced Crack the Ice with a new effect. It now lets the Frostwind Virago crack the ice/snow and create a pool of icy water. Being submerged causes Str and Cold damage.

When this pool is created, there's a blast of water. Both the blast & submersion involving being sucked down: If you're caught in the blast, you're sucked down. If you fail the reflex save, you're sucked down further. If you fail the Swim/Strength check, you're sucked down even more. Topping it off, since it's a portal to a (cold and watery) realm of the Faerie/Feywilds, if you're still beneath when the effect ends, you're not going to be sleeping in your own bed anytime soon (if you can even get out).

Hyudra
2011-03-16, 01:40 PM
Frostwind Powers
http://i51.tinypic.com/24cbp95.jpg
A Monster Class Supplement for the Frostwind Virago

Frostwind Powers:

Unless otherwise stated, Frostwind Powers require a standard action and have a range of 25' plus an additional 5' per caster level. All saves have a DC of 10 + ½ the Frostwind Virago's HD + the Frostwind Virago's Cha modifier.

Least:
Boreal Whirlwind

Least, 2nd
Frigid Demesnes: Yes. (20%)
Embrace of the Frozen: Yes, all tiles in whirlwind's space and all tiles passed over.
A breath of fogged air passes from the Frostwind Virago's lips, but it does not fade. Turning over and around itself, the stirring of the air builds in size, swiftness and intensity. Within a matter of moments, there is a small whirlwind of snow at the Frostwind Virago's side, growing steadily. With but a gesture, it is instructed to rush towards the enemy, momentarily disorienting foes as it twists through, under and around them.

The Virago fashions a Boreal Whirlwind with a standard action, with the Whirlwind appearing in an empty, adjacent 5' square. Initially tiny, the Boreal Whirlwind grows one size category at the end of each of her turns, including the turn she creates it. The Boreal Whirlwind reaches a maximum size of medium, with the possibility of being another size category larger for every 4HD the Frostwind Virago has (maximum Colossal). A Boreal Whirlwind that cannot grow any more will automatically move as described below. Though it occupies space appropriate for a creature of its size, the Boreal Whirlwind has no hp, HD or other statistics and cannot be attacked.

As a swift action, the Frostwind Virago may send a Boreal Whirlwind of at least small size traveling in a straight line for 20' per caster level. For each foe it passes over as it travels, the Boreal Whirlwind deals 1d6 cold damage for every two HD of the Frostwind Virago. Further, provided the Boreal Whirlwind is of the same size or larger than the affected target, the winds turn the foes around and disorient them, forcing them reroll their initiative, taking the new result if it is lower than their old one. Foes who attempt to enter the Whirlwind before it begins moving take the damage and are potentially disoriented, as though they had been struck by the moving whirlwind.

The Boreal Whirlwind covers every tile it hovers over or passes over in deep snow, which is difficult terrain.

Capricious Winds

Least, 1st
Frigid Demesnes: Yes. (20%)
Embrace of the Frozen: Yes, target only, until target breaks free or concentration ceases.
The Frostwind Virago concentrates on a foe, and the wind turns against them. The wind tugs at their clothing, blows hair into their face and makes every step they take, no matter how quickly they change direction, a step headlong into freezing, strong winds.

The Frostwind Virago designates a target and concentrates on them. For as long as she concentrates, that foe can't 5' step and loses 5' from their base land speed. This difficulty in movement accumulates at the start of each of the Frostwind Virago's turns, with the movement reduction increasing by 5' each time, to a minimum movement speed of 5'. Flying foes suffer a 10' cumulative loss in fly speed at the start of the effect and at the start of each of the Frostwind Virago's turns, to a minimum fly speed of 0'. Finally, affected foes suffer twice the penalties for firing their ranged weapons at any range increment beyond the first.

If the foe wishes to end the effect, he or she may elect to make a Strength check, opposed by the Virago's Charisma check, to wrest themselves free from the snaring and countering winds. This is a standard action. If the foe succeeds in beating the Frostwind Virago's Charisma check with his or her Strength check, the effect ends. If the foe fails, however, the Virago has the option of letting the effect persist or sending that foe flying in a straight line. The foe flies 5' for every two points the Virago beat their Strength check result, taking falling damage appropriate to the total distance they would have traveled if they collide with something en route. Any individual the foe would collide with is may make a Reflex save to dodge. Failing to dodge the flying victim means the bystander takes the same falling damage as the victim.

The Frostwind Virago gets a +1 on her Charisma check for every step the temperature is lower than comfortable (see Frigid Demesnes, above, for stages of temperature).

Chill Metal

Least, 2nd
Frigid Demesnes: No.
Embrace of the Frozen: Yes, target only, until item is dropped or discarded.
As though she were blowing a kiss, the Frostwind Virago sends a scattering of snowflakes across the battlefield. Landing atop a weapon or a plate of armor, the snowflakes sink in, and the metal turns white with frost, creaking at the sudden change in temperature. Those bearing the metal objects on their person stagger as they feel the cold being absorbed by their bodies.

As Chill Metal, but for every step the weather is colder than comfortable, the duration of the Freezing stage is extended by one round.

Frozen Fabrication


Least, 2nd
Frigid Demesnes: No.
Embrace of the Frozen: No.
After manifesting a large chunk of ice in her grasp, the Frostwind Virago flicks her wrist and the chunk of ice snaps into the shape of a common object, complete with engravings and fine detail. Those touching the item are liable to wince at the chill of the material it is fabricated from.

The Frostwind Virago can, as a full-round action, create any common object with a shop price of up to 10 gp per caster level out of pure ice. The created object must be solid, rigid and nonmagical, and no special properties granted by material are applied. As such, one could not create an adamantium dagger, nor an alchemical item such as a tindertwig. The Frostwind Virago could not create a rope, as it is not rigid, but she could create a chain. Created weapons and ammunition are fragile and break on a natural 1 or 2 on an attack roll, but deal 1d6 nonmagical cold damage in addition to standard damage dealt. Each round after the first that one holds the item, individuals lacking cold resistance suffer 1d6 nonlethal damage and are fatigued (this fatigue does not stack with itself to cause exhaustion) as the cold numbs. Items created with Frozen Fabrication have 0 hardness and 3 hp per pound (minimum 1). If there's ice or snow within 5' of the Frostwind Virago, this Frostwind Power requires only a standard action to use.

Glacial Blast

Least, 2nd
Frigid Demesnes: Yes. (20%)
Embrace of the Frozen: Yes, area affected by cone.
Extending her arm, the Frostwind Virago releases a sudden blast of slush, sleet and freezing water from her palm to drench and freeze her foes and their surroundings.

Glacial Blast takes the form of a 15' cone, with 5' additional range for every 4HD of the Frostwind Virago. All foes within the area take 1d6 damage per HD of the Frostwind Virago, half of which is cold and half of which is nonlethal. Foes taking damage are fatigued, and already fatigued foes are exhausted. Affected targets within 5' of any vertically ascending terrain that fills a 5' space (such as a wall, tree trunk or large rock) are also entangled for one round.

Foes are entitled to a Reflex save to avoid the damage, the fatigue/exhaustion and the entanglement.

Finally, the affected area, terrain and creatures failing the Reflex save are covered in a sheet of ice. Creatures so covered in ice suffer no particular deleterious effects, beyond being vulnerable to several of the Frostwind Virago's powers, but the terrain becomes difficult terrain, with any creature standing on it suffering a +5 increased DC for any Tumble or Balance checks. Unattended items left on the ground before the Glacial Blast are trapped beneath the ice.

Icicles

Least, 1st
Frigid Demesnes: Yes. (20%)
Embrace of the Frozen: Yes, struck area and squares within 5' of struck area.
Drawing her fingertips together as she lowers her hand, the Frostwind Virago bids massive icicles to form and loom overhead. Should an unwary foe step too close, the icicle drops like the proverbial Sword of Damocles.

The Frostwind Virago creates 2d4 medium sized icicles, with an additional icicle for every three HD she has, placing each within 60' of herself, but with no icicle placed within 15' of another. Should a foe pass beneath an icicle (foes starting their turn beneath an icicle will not prompt it to drop), that icicle drops and the Frostwind Virago makes a ranged touch attack roll. On a hit, the icicle deals 1d6 piercing/cold damage for every 3HD of the Frostwind Virago. The icicle deals quadruple damage should she roll a natural 20 on the attack roll.

Further, should she hit the target with the icicle, that target may make no further movement or actions that turn and the foe must make his or her choice of a balance or tumble check (DC 10 + ½ Frostwind Virago's HD + Frostwind Virago's Cha) or be knocked prone.

Manifest Ice

Least, 1st
Frigid Demesnes: Yes. (20%)
Embrace of the Frozen: Yes, all affected spaces.
Sweeping her arm, the Frostwind Virago bids ice to appear and spread over a target area.

As the 1st level spell Grease, only the Frostwind Virago covers a total number of 5' squares equal to 1+ her HD or her Cha mod, whichever is less. The affected squares must all be connected. The squares are considered to be covered in ice for the purposes of her Frostwind Powers and class features. Further, she gains the ability to cast Stone Shape, but the effect is restricted to snow and ice rather than stone.

Seal of Ice

Least, 1st
Frigid Demesnes: No.
Embrace of the Frozen: Yes, affected foes only for as long as the effect lasts.
Frost spreads from the Frostwind Virago's feet and fingertips, covering a surface. Where the frost encounters traces of magic, it outlines the magic, revealing prominent diagrams and runes that glow with energy, locking them into place. The ethereal and astral is given form, and both enchantments and insubstantial creatures who are so touched by this Seal may be broken with blades.

Seal of Ice covers a 5' square for every HD of the Frostwind Virago. All affected squares affected with a given casting of Seal of Ice must be connected to one another and must fall within a range of 25' plus 5' per HD of the Frostwind Virago.

Within the affected area, all enchantments or spell effects present in the area are made explicitly visible to all present as though they all had the benefit of a Detect Magic spell on them, as tracings of frost outline the magical diagrams and runes that define the spell at work (Alternately, it takes an appearance similar to the aurora borealis, marking the raw magical energies at work). The colors, ranging from white to blue to pale green and purple, make it possible to identify the school of magic at work, while the intensity of the glow makes the general power level of the effect clear. Once the Seal has been cast, it remains for a number of rounds equal to half the Frostwind Virago's HD (rounding up), but the effects persist on all affected spells for a number of rounds equal to the Frostwind Virago's HD, marking them and making them vulnerable to being shattered (see below).

A given spell effect may be targeted with an attack, potentially shattering it. Shattering a spell effect in this manner requires an attack roll against an AC of 11 + the spell's caster level + the ability modifier for caster's spellcasting attribute. If successful, any ongoing spell effect is dispelled. The attack roll must also surpass the AC of any summoned creatures and other spell effects with an armor class (such as summoned creatures). Consequences from spells with an instantaneous duration and ongoing effects (such as the blaze created by a fireball) cannot be dispelled with Seal of Ice as they are not technically magical effects.

An incorporeal creature that attempts to pass through the Seal of Ice fails to do so and is forced into the nearest open space. For 1d3 rounds thereafter, the incorporeal creature loses the benefits of corporeality, as the frost takes root in them to give them a physical body.

Sudden Snowstorm

Least, 2nd
Frigid Demesnes: Yes. (20%)
Embrace of the Frozen: Yes, within affected area throughout & 1 round afterwards.
The Frostwind Virago summons a violent swirl of snowflakes, clouds and twisting winds that obscures vision for any onlookers. As the effect dissipates, the snow settles, leaving the ground beneath covered in deep snow.

The Virago summons a snowstorm over a 20' radius at a target location. This operates as Obscuring Mist for all intents and purposes, but when the effect fades it leaves the area beneath it covered in snow, which should be treated as difficult terrain. The Frostwind Virago may end the effect prematurely as a swift action.

Thief of Air

Least, 2nd
Frigid Demesnes: No.
Embrace of the Frozen: Yes, victim only, until the effect ends or the Frostwind Virago ceases concentrating.
The Frostwind Virago bids the air in her victim's lungs to come to her, gathering it up in her palm as an orb of swirling air and wind. The victim finds their lungs a vacuum, devoid of breath, with only a chill void to fill them. Even as their lungs lurch and heave for breath, the victim finds each breath stolen from them before it can give sustenance.

The Virago draws the air from a target's lungs and gathers it in her grasp. Subjects get a Fortitude save, with failure meaning they are effectively silenced for the purposes of using their voice and they begin to suffocate. To end the suffocation effect, the victim or one of their allies must successfully attack the Frostwind Virago to free the air to return to the victim - Dealing damage equal to 10% of the Frostwind Virago's maximum hitpoints forces her to release the air. Failing that, the victim must take a full round action followed by a Fortitude save (same DC as above) to draw in a full lungful of air and hold onto it before it can escape, which interrupts and ends the Frostwind Power's effect.

Whispering Wind

Least, 1st
Frigid Demesnes: No.
Embrace of the Frozen: No.
The most minor elementals of air, those that carry voices and direct the currents of the air, are obedient to the will of the Frostwind Virago. They obediently carry sounds to her as whispers and echoes.

The most minor elementals of air, those that carry voices and direct the currents of the air, are obedient to the will of the Virago. The DC for her Listen checks is not modified by distance or intervening objects so long as she knows what she is listening for, as the least elementals loyally carry the sound to her. Alternately, she may command the least elementals to scout for her. In the doing, she loses the benefit of this Frostwind Power for 1d4 minutes, but as the elementals return, she hears whispers of goings on in the vicinity, as a general jumble of replies. The elementals are typically native to a particular area, and can thus make note of something new, strange or changing about the area, while others share details about the surroundings that concern the spirits of air. Given the limited capacity of these least elementals of air, the whisperings tend to be more cryptic than specific:
An figure unfamiliar to the area is following the Frostwind Virago: "Misssstresss, he follows, he follows, the blade sings as he unsheathes it, unsheathes it."
A meteor struck not far away, a few days ago: "It fell, big and loud, and we danced with the smoke we did, and ran with the booming sounds for miles and miles"
There's a pit trap nearby that a number have fallen victim to: "The screaming spot is near. Funny, funny, the noises they make when they dip, slip and fall."
Successive attempts at sending the Whispering Winds out to scout are unlikely to provide more detailed information - they might expand or reword something they said previously, but it is just as likely they will seize on a word game or a particular phrase and repeat it ad infinitum (For example, to use the examples on the list above, it might be simply "He follows, he follows, he follows", "The smoke danced and twirled and spun with us" or "They dip and slip they do", respectively).

Lesser:
Cold Snap

Lesser, 4th
Frigid Demesnes: Yes, but only if 5 or more squares/objects/creatures detonate. (40%)
Embrace of the Frozen: Yes, all areas falling within blast radius.
With a snap of her fingers, the Frostwind Virago makes the ice around her explode violently, slivers of ice becoming shrapel and the frozen flesh of her enemies breaking into tens of thousands of crimson, crystalline shards.

The Frostwind Virago makes every instance of ice in the area explode violently. Each square containing icy terrain, icy ground, an icy item or a creature fabricated from ice explodes, dealing damage in their space and in a 5' radius around them. Each such exploding square delivers 1d6 slashing/piercing damage for every 3HD of the Frostwind Virago to all within the blast. They may make a Reflex save (DC 10 + ½ Frostwind Virago HD + Frostwind Virago Cha) for half damage and to avoid being blinded for 1 hour. The blindness may be cured with a DC 10 heal check, or rubbed out with a full round action that deals 1d6 slashing damage and has only a 25% chance to work. Creatures of living ice that are caught by the Cold Snap get a Fortitude save (same DC as above) to negate the damage, but they take double damage if they fail (regardless of whether or not they attempt the save or not).

Cresting Iceberg

Lesser, 4th
Frigid Demesnes: Yes (40%)
Embrace of the Frozen: Yes, area within 5' of iceberg after creation/growth.
Palm upward, the Frostwind Virago raises her arm, bidding an iceberg to ascend from the frosted ground, or building upon an existing glacier. Foes in the affected area risk being having a limb caught within, or worse, being trapped within as it forms.

The Frostwind Virago calls forth an iceberg in a 10' by 10' square within 25' + 5' per HD. The entire area of the iceberg need not fall within the range. Foes within the affected area must make a Reflex save or be immobilized as a leg or foot is caught in the ice. Creatures gain a +2 to their save if at least half of their space is outside the affected area, and a -2 if the growing iceberg completely encompasses their space.

Affected foes may free themselves with a Strength check or by breaking each 5' square of ice that encroaches on their space. Ice has no hardness and each square has a number of hitpoints equal to 20 or twice the Frostwind Virago's HD, whichever is more. Ice takes half again as much damage from bludgeoning weapons and double damage from fire. Cold damage dealt to ice repairs it.

The Frostwind Virago may also expand an existing iceberg or structure made of ice, extending its covered space by 5' in two directions. A 10' by 10' iceberg, for example, could become 15' by 15' or 10' by 20'. Creatures who fall at least partially within the space are potentially immobilized, in the same manner as described above. Already immobilized creatures risk being buried, being entitled to their choice of another Fortitude save or a Strength check as described above (DC 10 + ½ Frostwind Virago HD + Frostwind Virago's Cha modifier for both), as the ice covers them. Failure to save or make the Strength check results in the target being completely smothered in ice. They can take no actions beyond a Strength check to free themselves (see DC, above) at a -4 penalty, they begin suffocating as though they were underwater and they take 1d6 points of nonlethal damage a round from the cold (the last of which is reduced by cold resistance and prevented entirely by cold immunity).

Crystal Column


Lesser, 4th
Frigid Demesnes: Yes. (40%)
Embrace of the Frozen: Yes. Violent use only, all squares within 5' of Column.
Raising both arms above her head, the Frostwind Virago directs a pillar of ice to spear out of a nearby surface, three times the height of a grown man and twice as wide across.

The Frostwind Virago creates a pillar 5' across, with a height of 5' per HD of the Frostwind Virago. (5' tall with a length of 5' per HD of the Frostwind Virago), originating from (and fixed to) one solid surface, such as stone, solid earth or ice. The Crystal Column may be used in two ways. The first is a gentle appearance, taking a full six to ten seconds to rise to its full height. Creatures atop the column must make a DC 10 balance check to stay on top (helpless creatures fail automatically).

The second method is a more violent one, as the Crystal Column lunges out of the ground or wall, either vaulting those atop it into the air or slamming them into a nearby surface. Foes atop or in front of the column as it emerges must make a Reflex save. Success means they move 5' and the Column passes them by without harm. Failure to avoid a vertically ascending Column means the foe is vaulted a distance into the air equal to half the height of the column, starting at the point the column ceases rising. The victim flies an added 5' for every size category they are smaller than medium, with 5' less distance for every size category they are larger than medium. The foe falls into an unoccupied square within 20' of the Crystal Column, chosen by the Frostwind Virago. Failure to avoid a horizontally growing column means the foe is shoved 5' per 15' of the Column's length in the same direction the Crystal Column is growing, starting at the point the column ends, adjusted for size category as described above.

Should a victim fail their Reflex save and find themselves sandwiched between the Crystal Column and another terrain feature (such as a wall, a ceiling or another Crystal Column), they take 1d6 bludgeoning damage per HD of the Frostwind Virago and are pinned. Trapped foes must make a Strength check (DC 10 + ½ Frostwind Virago HD + Frostwind Virago Cha mod) to free themselves. Alternately, a trapped foe may attempt to destroy the column with any light or natural weapon at their disposal. Each 5' square of ice in the column has a number of hitpoints equal to twenty or twice the Frostwind Virago's HD, whichever is more.

Frostflight


3rd, Lesser
Frigid Demesnes: No.
Embrace of the Frozen: No.
The Frostwind Virago bids the spirits of the ice and storms

The Frostwind Virago uses the powers of the winds to gain flight with average maneuverability, with a speed of 10' for every 2HD she has, for 24 hours. While flying, the Frostwind Virago is unaffected by the dangers or hazards of powerful winds, magical or otherwise.

Gelid Blade

Lesser, 3rd
Frigid Demesnes: No.
Embrace of the Frozen: No.
As the Frostwind Virago touches a blade, frost traces over it, then around it, and finally spirals outward into the air surrounding the weapon. Wrapped in arcane diagrams of frost and rime, the weapon freezes anyone so unlucky as to be struck by it.

The Frostwind Virago bestows the ability to deal cold damage to a weapon. The weapon deals a bonus 1d6 cold damage for every 4HD of the Frostwind Virago. Further, the weapon can, for the duration, be considered a magic weapon with a +1 enhancement bonus for every d6 of cold damage granted. This enchantment does not stack with pre-existing magical enhancements on the same weapon (Each 1d6 of cold damage is equivalent to one enhancement bonus).

Further, the enchanted weapon cannot critically hit. Instead, the weapon grants a special Gelid Blade effect should the wielder make an attack roll that would critically threaten a foe, not counting any Keen enchantment or feats. In the event that the Gelid Blade special effect is triggered, the target takes no conventional damage, instead taking an amount of Dexterity damage equal to the base weapon damage plus 1d6 Dexterity damage per 4 HD of the Frostwind Virago.

Hailing Volley

Lesser, 4th
Frigid Demesnes: Yes. (40%)
Embrace of the Frozen: Yes (all potentially targeted areas).
Levitating a daunting mass of icicles and ice shards overhead, the Frostwind Virago directs countless spears of ice to vault through the air and bombard the affected area. The volley strikes without rhyme or reason, potentially doing catastrophic amounts of damage, or none at all, while leaving jagged blades of ice sticking out of the ground as fallout.

Use of Hailing Volley is a full round action, and targets a 15' radius circle within 100' of the Frostwind Virago. Each time an individual within the area is struck, they sustain 1d6 piercing damage per HD of the Frostwind Virago and a matching 1d6 cold damage per HD. However, there is no guarantee the victim will be affected. Note which individuals within the area are is first, second, third target. For each size category a foe is larger than medium, they may be counted as an additional target (so a large creature may be counted as the first and second targets, a huge creature could be counted as the first through third targets, and so on).
Roll a percentile die, then consult the table below:

{table=Head]Result|Effect
1-10|First target is struck
11-20|Second target is struck
21-30|Third target is struck
31-40|Fourth target is struck
41-50|Fifth target is struck
51-60|Sixth target is struck
61-70|Seventh target is struck
71-80|Eighth target is struck
81-90|Ninth target is struck
91-100|No strikes[/table]
If the result on the percentile die is even, roll again. If it is odd, then that is it for that particular roll. An additional roll may be made for every 5HD of the Frostwind Virago (with the possibility for subsequent rolls on even results as described above).

The area is thereafter filled with icy blades, which can be treated as both being covered in ice and dealing 3d6 cold/piercing damage to any individual who falls into or is thrown into the affected area.


Ice Sculpture

Lesser, 4th
Frigid Demesnes: Yes. (40%)
Embrace of the Frozen: Yes, all spaces adjacent to the summoned creature when it is summoned, and again when it dies. Summoned creature is immune.
A block of ice emerges from the ground, then rapidly sheds fragments of ice, layer after layer, until an intricately crafted creature sculpted of ice is revealed. The creature, fashioned down to details as fine as eyelashes and fingerprints, remains stationary for mere heartbeats before the Frostwind Virago casts a droplet of her own blood onto it. Imbued with her lifeforce, the sculpture fights on her behalf

Ice Sculpture operates as a Summon Monster spell of a level up to ½ the Frostwind Virago's HD (Such as Summon Monster III for a Frostwind Virago of 6th level), only it cannot summon outsiders or elementals, all summoned creatures bear the cold subtype and all summoned creatures are neutral, regardless of their other types or traits. Animating the creature requires a drop of the Frostwind Virago's own blood, which passes on the necessary lifeforce. This deals 1 point of damage to the Frostwind Virago and if she already has a summoned monster (or multiple summoned monsters), it causes her to be fatigued for one hour. Should she already be fatigued, she becomes exhausted. An already exhausted Frostwind Virago cannot use this Frostwind Power. The fatigue and exhaustion effects result from a loss of lifeforce and a price paid, and cannot be circumvented - should the Frostwind Virago not become fatigued or exhausted, the creature does not animate. Further, the exhaustion and fatigue conditions persist for one hour regardless of effects that would end them prematurely.

Mistral Attendant

Lesser, 3rd
Frigid Demesnes: No.
Embrace of the Frozen: No.
The Frostwind Virago calls forth one of the most minor spirits of the air to do her bidding, attend to menial tasks and carry her belongings.

The Frostwind Virago may create an Unseen Servant as the spell, to a maximum of 1 per 6HD. These Mistral Attendants are slightly more adept than Unseen Servants. They can perform tasks with a DC up to 10 + ½ the Frostwind Virago's HD and move up to 5' for every 3 HD she has. A Mistral Attendant that serves the Frostwind Virago for one week's time learns to follow common instructions with gestures as well as spoken orders. After a month's time, they know enough to do as their mistress wishes without any indication on her part (treat as mental command).

Roaring Squall

Lesser, 3rd
Frigid Demesnes: Yes. (40%)
Embrace of the Frozen: No.
The Frostwind Virago gives vitality and shape to those selfsame least air elementals that carry the more mischievous and mean aspects of the wind - The current of air that drives stinging dust or sand into the eyes, the sudden of wind that scatters carried papers and the breeze that blows smoke and soot from the campfire into one's face. Given life, these Squalls are mischievous, small sized entities that eagerly await an opportunity to fling a foe through the air.

With a standard action, the Frostwind Virago bids a Roaring Squall to materialize in an unoccupied space within 50' of her. The Roaring Squall is a small sized effect that remains stationary until directed to move. As a standard action, the Frostwind Virago may direct the Roaring Squall to move up to 15'. Should the Roaring Squall move into an enemy's space, or vice versa, the Frostwind Virago may attempt a ranged touch attack against that foe. If the touch attack is successful, that foe is thrown 5' per point of the Frostwind Virago's Cha mod in the direction of the Frostwind Virago's choice. Further, affected foes must make a Reflex save or fall prone. A creature that cannot move the full distance due to an intervening obstacle takes 1d6 bludgeoning damage and suffers a -1 to their Reflex save for every 10' they would have moved beyond the obstacle.

The Roaring Squall threatens the space around it as though it were a small creature, for the purposes of attacks of opportunity. Such attacks of opportunity are made as though the Frostwind Virago had attempted a ranged touch attack and count against the Frostwind Virago's maximum number of attacks of opportunity for the round. If the attack of opportunity is successful, the foe is affected as though they moved into the Roaring Squall's space, as described above. Only one attack (whether an attack of opportunity or an attack made by moving into an enemy's space) may be made against each foe in a given turn.

Zephyr

Lesser, 4th
Frigid Demesnes: No.
Embrace of the Frozen: No.
The spirits of wind cavort and dance about the Frostwind Virago and her allies, lightening their steps and potentially extinguishing themselves to buoy them into the air for just a few moments.

The Frostwind Virago calls forth spirits of wind and air - Zephyrs - to enchant herself and allies within 30' for one hour. Affected individuals gain 5' additional movement speed to all movement types except for burrowing and swimming. An individual so enchanted may extinguish the Zephyr as an immediate action to gain flying with a fly speed (perfect) equal to their unmodified base land speed for one round, add the Frostwind Virago's Cha modifier to their AC against one ranged attack, or gain a bonus to an attack roll against a flying creature equal to the Frostwind Virago's Cha mod (Said creature must have a flight speed & maneuverability).

Greater:
Avalanche

Greater, 6th
Frigid Demesnes: Yes (60%)
Embrace of the Frozen: Yes. All tiles and creatures in area of effect.
The Frostwind Virago infuses the ice and snow in her vicinity with the elemental cold, then releases that energy in a torrential flood of ice, sleet and snow that spouts and pours outward from that which already exists.

The Frostwind Virago chooses a direction. To determine if a creature falls within the area of effect, draw a 20' line extending opposite that direction from each foe within 80'. If that line passes over a tile of ice and snow that is also within 60' of the Frostwind Virago, that foe is in the path of the Avalanche effect. Every foe caught in the area is smothered in a tide of snow and ice, and is forced to make two Reflex saves.

Foes who fail one such save are immobilized until they can pull their lower bodies free (A Strength check with a DC of 10 + ½ Virago HD + Frostwind Virago's Cha modifier). Each attempt to free oneself grants a +2 bonus on further attempts as the victim digs themselves free. Foes who fail both saves are buried. They may take no actions except to make a Strength check (same DC as the Reflex save, above) at a -4 penalty, with no benefit for successive attempts. Immobilized and buried foes take 1d6 nonlethal damage at the end of each of their turns due to the exposure to the cold, and are fatigued if and when they suffer the damage. Buried foes begin to suffocate.

Bloodrime

Greater, 6th
Frigid Demesnes: Yes, offensive version only. (60%)
Embrace of the Frozen: Yes, offensive version only. Target's space and all spaces within 5', only if it does damage.
The Frostwind Virago eyes the blood dripping from her opponent's wounds. The hints of a smile touch the corner of her lip. Before the victim can make something of the expression, the Ice Fey makes a claw gesture with her hand, and the blood congeals into a mass of hard crimson ice. As the blood freezes, the victim's wounds are torn open further and ice roots itself deep in their bodies.

With a gesture, the Frostwind Virago forces a Fortitude save from a victim within 100'. If they fail, they take cold damage equal to the damage they have already sustained (that is, equal to the difference between their current and their maximum health). Alternately, the Frostwind Virago may target a foe with Bloodrime with a round's casting time, allowing no Fortitude save, with the same effect.

Finally, the Frostwind Virago may also use this ability on a willing creature to grant them the Cold subtype for 1 hour per caster level.

Crosswinds


Greater, 5th
Frigid Demesnes: Yes (60%)
Embrace of the Frozen: Yes, within wind's area of effect.
The Frostwind Virago gestures, and the wind obeys, a blustering flurry of snowflake filled wind erupts and blows smaller enemies off their feet and sends the bigger foes stumbling for cover. Flying foes are liable to suffer the most, as the spirits of the air steal the wind from beneath their wings and potentially send them plummeting for the ground below.

Crosswinds operates in the same manner as the second level spell Gust of Wind, except for the following: It covers tiles beneath the affected area in snow, creatures take 1d6 points of nonlethal damage for every 4HD of the Frostwind Virago, with an additional 1d6 nonlethal damage for every size category they are larger than medium, and flying creatures that find themselves within the affected area have their maneuverability reduced by two steps for one round. Nonlethal damage dealt is reduced or prevented by cold resistance and cold immunity, respectively. Flying creatures that would have their maneuverability reduced below Poor lose the ability to fly for one round instead.

Cryokinesis


Greater, 5th
Frigid Demesnes: No.
Embrace of the Frozen: No.
Her lips set in a thin line, the Frostwind Virago focuses her gaze on an icy object. With a snap, it breaks free from the frost-laced floor and floats into her grasp. Turning her head to one side, she sees a scoundrel sneaking up on her, blade in hand. Focusing her attention on the ice crusting his boots, she trips him.

The Frostwind Virago gains the ability to use Telekinesis, but this ability is restricted to frozen objects, objects made of ice and objects covered in ice or snow (such as that created by her Glacial Blast Frostwind Power or falling under the area of effect of one of her powers that creates snow). To be targeted, enemies must be either covered in ice or snow (as just described), be under the effect or influence of one of her SLAs or Frostwind Powers or have sustained Dexterity damage equal to half their unmodified Dexterity attribute to her Frostwind Powers. The Frostwind Virago can move frozen objects weighing up to 50 lbs. per HD, to a maximum of 750 lbs. at 15 HD.

Snowdrift

Greater, 5th
Frigid Demesnes: Yes. (60%)
Embrace of the Frozen: Yes, burial only, all spaces above target creature.
The Frostwind Virago's enemy falters as his step finds no solid ground in the snow beneath him. Only paces away from the Frostwind Virago, he sinks in as deep as his knees, then finds himself waist deep and still sinking. Telling himself there was a stone floor not three feet under the ice, before, he belatedly realizes the danger, throwing his weapon aside and reaching for more solid ground. The Frostwind Virago approaches and stands imperiously above him as he struggles and fails to get a handhold in the snow and ice. Coldly, she looks down on him as she places a bootheel on his forehead and forces him beneath. Hours later, at the Frostwind Virago's behest, the snowbanks have shifted and the enemy is thoroughly lost beneath.

The Frostwind Virago can cause any pre-existing patch of deep snow (typically created with another Frostwind Power) to strategically collapse, with those standing on it being swallowed up and buried in a matter of seconds. The snowdrift acts very similar to quicksand: The affected area is 20 feet in diameter and the momentum of a charging or running character carries him or her 1d2×5 feet into the snowdrift. Spotting the snowdrift requires a Survival check against a DC of 10 + ½ the Frostwind Virago's HD + the Frostwind Virago's Cha mod, or a Spot check against the same DC with a -5 penalty. Should the Frostwind Virago create the Snowdrift under a foe, that foe is entitled to a Reflex save (DC 10 + ½ the Frostwind Virago's HD + the Frostwind Virago's Cha mod) to avoid the effect and jump clear.

Those stuck in a snowdrift may attempt to stay in place with a Climb check, which must beat a DC of 10 + ½ the Frostwind Virago's HD + the Frostwind Virago's Cha mod. Failing this check causes the victim to sink below the surface. Moving 5' through the snowdrift requires a Climb check against a DC of 15 + ½ the Frostwind Virago's HD + the Frostwind Virago's Cha mod. Again, failing this movement attempt by 5 or more causes one to sink below the surface.

Once a victim has sunk below the surface, they take 1 point of Dexterity damage and suffer 1d6 nonlethal damage each round. The DC to climb back to the surface is the same as an attempt to move 5', but increases by +1 for every round spent below. Allies can attempt to pull a victim free, but this requires either a length of rope or a pole of 10' or more length. An attempt to pull a victim free requires a DC 15 Strength check on the part of the rescuer and a DC 10 Strength check on the part of the victim, with a success moving the victim 5' closer to the surface or the edge of the effect. A failure on the part of rescuer or victim forces the victim to immediately make another Climb check or sink beneath the surface (DC 15 + ½ the Frostwind Virago's HD + the Frostwind Virago's Cha mod).

Finally, the Frostwind Virago gains the ability to cast the spell Move Earth, only it is restricted to ice and snow.

Snowflurry Step

Greater, 6th
Frigid Demesnes: No.
Embrace of the Frozen: No.
The Frostwind Virago stands in the midst of the snowstorm, her expression unreadable as enemies tromp through the knee deep snow beneath her. As a wave of falling snow obscures her from vision for just a moment's time, she disappears from view. A stirring of snow on the clifftop above the enemies conceals her reappearance.

The Frostwind Virago gains the ability to travel nigh instantaneously from location to location. Snowflurry Step is activated or dismissed with a swift action. While the effect persists, she can attempt to travel to a location within 100' that she can see. Beyond the first square, for every 5' of distance between her and the intended space, her Snowflurry step has a cumulative 10% chance of failing, leaving her where she is. If she is standing on snow or ice or if the target location is covered in snow or ice, this chance is reduced to 5% per 5' of distance. If both are the case (both starting area and the destination are covered in snow and ice), the chance is reduced to 2.5% per 5' of distance (rounding down).

Elite:
Crack the Ice

Elite, 7th
Frigid Demesnes: Yes, all uses except for the Save-or-Die effect. (100%)
Embrace of the Frozen: Yes. All spaces within or adjacent for all uses except the save or die effect.
Spreading her arms wide, the Frostwind Virago bids the ice and snow to crack, unleashing a cresting wave of icy water that ensnares and pulls at all within reach. Where there was once ground, there is only water, so cold it saps one's strength and pulling the submerged ever deeper.

This water serves as a portal to the lands known as the Faerie, the Feywidls or the Fair Glades - the plane of the Fey. Those caught beneath when the portal closes that are lost to a frozen corner of one of those deceptively beautiful and consummately dangerous lands.

The Frostwind Virago can crack a surface having it transform into a pool of freezing cold water. The affected area is a burst 5' across for every three HD the Frostwind Virago has, targeting a space within 25' + 5' per HD. If the ground is icy or covered in snow, the burst is instead 5' across for every HD of the Frostwind Virago. The ground at the location is shattered, becoming a pool of water that serves as a portal to an otherworldly lake or pond. This occurs regardless of the terrain beneath the land, and as such, it would create a pool of endlessly deep, freezing waters regardless of whether one stood on an open plain, the roof of a castle or a cloud.

As the power is used and the land cracks to reveal the pool, a blast of ice and water strikes every individual within 10' of the area, forcing a Reflex save. Every individual in the area is dragged 5' towards the center of the effect, while individuals who fail the saving throw are dragged an additional 5' per point they failed the Saving Throw.

Foes that are pulled into the center of the effect or who otherwise fall into the water are drawn beneath. Each round they are in contact with the water, affected foes take 1d3 Strength damage and 1d3 Constitution damage and must either make a Strength check opposed by her Charisma check or make a Swim check opposed by her Charisma check at a -4 penalty. For each point a foe fails the save by, they are dragged 5' deeper into the water. Submerged creatures must still make swim checks to navigate the icy lake.

The portal closes after a number of rounds equal to the Frostwind Virago's HD, freezing over with a heavy crust of ice, with any summary melting of the ice revealing only the terrain that was once there, damaged but showing little of the sheer destruction that had been visited on it before. The Frostwind Virago may, as a free action, close the portal early, no less than 1d3+1 rounds after the portal's creation (roll as the portal is created). Those who are still beneath the water when the portal closes must swim 1d20x10 feet straight up to reach the surface, whereupon they find themselves in a particularly cold and inhospitable region of the Faerie/Feywilds/Fair Courts (the Plane of the Fey for your respective campaign, the Elemental Plane of Water if such does not exist).

Once a week, the Frostwind Virago can call forth one who was caught in the pool when it closed, using a sufficiently large body of water, reaching in and pulling them forth to bargain, threaten or mock them. For 1 hour thereafter, she may banish them back to the watery realm with an immediate action. Those who had their Strength or Constitution reduced to 0 or who drowned are revived with the respective attribute and their hitpoints set to 1.

As a variant, Crack the Ice may be used on a wall or ceiling, the Frostwind Virago instead creates a geyser/spout/waterfall of icy water in much the same fashion as the geyser function of a decanter of endless water, only it is 50' long, 5' across and produces 376 gallons a round. Should it originate on ice or snow, it is twice as long and produces twice as much water a round. Those caught within the geyser take 1d3 Strength and 1d3 Constitution damage and are moved to the terminus of the effect. Making a Reflex save negates all three of these effects.

Mindnumbing Aura

Elite, 8th
Frigid Demesnes: Yes. (100%)
Embrace of the Frozen: Yes, the area within 30' of the Frostwind Virago.
The very presence of the Frostwind Virago can sap an individual of his or her ambition, enthusiasm and drive, as the persistent cold and the wind cause them to wait just one moment longer to catch their breath or dive headlong into the icy winds once more.

For 24 hours, any foe that starts their turn within 60' of the Frostwind Virago is forced to delay their action until after someone else (who has not been affected by Mindnumbing Aura or who already acted on their delayed turn) has acted, taking a new place in the initiative order as a consequence. Foes at the bottom of the initiative order delay until they are near the top of the next round's initiative order.

North Wind

Elite, 9th
Frigid Demesnes: Yes, with special effect. (100%)
Embrace of the Frozen: Yes, throughout the affected area.
The Frostwind Virago dispatches a terrible storm that dances over the landscape in front of her, smothering the terrain in heavy snow and ice. Smaller foes are blown away while larger foes bear the full brunt of the wind. So terrible is this wind, it can cast a region into the deepest winter for weeks at a time.

The Frostwind Virago summons a wind that extends in a one mile cone before her. She creates Windstorm level winds in the affected area that persists for one round, but the Fort save DC is increased to (10 + ½ Frostwind Virago's HD + Frostwind Virago's Cha mod). Further, the Frostwind Virago extends the temperature in her current location over the affected area. The new climate persists in the affected area for a duration of one day for every HD she has.

Finally, foes in the area take damage based on their size as described on the table below:

{table=head]Creature Size|Damage
Colossal|1d6 cold damage and 1d6 nonlethal damage per HD of the Frostwind Virago
Gargantuan|1d6 cold damage per HD of the Frostwind Virago
Huge| 1d6 cold damage per two HD of the Frostwind Virago
Medium or smaller|1d6 cold damage per three HD of the Frostwind Virago[/table]
Still of Winter

Elite, 8th
Frigid Demesnes: Yes (100%)
Embrace of the Frozen: Yes, within burst and in adjacent squares.
The Frostwind Virago points, and there is a muffled rustling in the air a short distance away. For those caught within the affected area, noises are smothered, breathing is suddenly strained and movement seems as though it takes twice the effort, as snow and air simply refuses to bend or cooperate.

Still of Winter affects all within a 20' radius burst, targeting a location within 25' + 5' per HD of the Frostwind Virago that she can see. Those within the area must make a Will saving throw or be Stilled, as described below. Those who succeed their saving throw are nonetheless Slowed as the spell for 1d3 rounds.

Stilled foes require more effort to make each action, as shown on the table below:

{table=head]Old Action Type|New Action type
Immediate|Immediate, but also uses swift/immediate for subsequent round.
Swift|Move
Move|Standard
Standard|Full-Round
Full-Round|Effectively one round casting time.*
One Round or more Casting Time|Casting time doubled.[/table]
In the event of actions that now have an effective casting time (such as a full attack), the action is carried out at the end of the round. Such actions may be interrupted in the same manner of a spell and require a Concentration check to maintain in the same fashion. Actions that already required a Concentration check (such as casting spells) have a flat 25% chance to fail in addition to all other penalties. All actions beyond free actions for Stilled foes provoke attacks of opportunity, and the movement speeds of Stilled Foes are halved.

At the Frostwind Virago's discretion, foes may be Slowed rather than Stilled.

Zemro
2011-03-17, 01:11 PM
To be a hundred percent honest, I feel the same way. That is, I don't like the name either, but honestly, not sure what to replace it with. I dug through the thesaurus for alternatives to trample, kick, hoof, stomp, stamp, etc, and didn't find anything that really fit. I'm open to suggestions, people.
Yeah, not really a lot of words. Buck and clop are the other words I can think of, seems like there's not many good phrases for 'getting kicked by a horse.'


It seems clear to me. Could you perhaps give a situation where it would be hard to adjudicate? I'm open to further criticism on this point from others, as well.
I'm not sure what I was thinking about, looking back. Suppose that means it's fine then.


Thank you kindly for the feedback.
No problemo.


Good changes overall, but the "within 50" bit seems like it would be annoying to a DM. Demanding math, more or fairly exacting estimates and the like is just problematic.

Alrighty, I've got a good solution there. I didn't want to get too broad with the increments or it wouldn't do much at at close-ish distances. I'll add some variance in there, make the math easier but still retain usefulness.

I think it'll take a little bit of tweaking further, but I'm thinking something like this should be easy enough to arbitrate:
If they are on the same plane she knows the general direction (to the nearest cardinal or ordinal direction) and approximate distance to her quarry, the accuracy depending on the overall distance between them.
She knows the distance up to the nearest 50ft if her within 500ft.
Up to the nearest 500ft if within a mile.
Up to the nearest mile if within 10 miles.
With further distances following the same pattern.

Alternately, just define the increments within a mile, leaving the DM to choose 'appropriate increments' for larger distances.

I've also tweaked Shared Fate, hopefully it's now something a bit more appropriate. I did go with HD/4 for uses though, since it's an ability gained at 4th level.

The Antigamer
2011-03-17, 01:34 PM
Hey guys, sorry I bailed on the thread. I went through a rough patch for a while, I was depressed about the death of my Grandfather, which led me to minimize posting on the forums and focus on school work and finals, because I feared I might just stay online to deal with it, and not do the final projects I needed to focus on. I'm finally on Spring break though, and feeling less depressed, so I trust myself to get back online. I found the last critique of Gray Jester, I'll look at whipping up a Joy Slave template when I return home tonight.

Hyudra
2011-03-17, 03:21 PM
Welcome back, Antigamer. No worries about the absence - I've been in much the same boat for very similar reasons myself, in the past. I can sympathize.

With the monster of a monster class that is the Frostwind Virago posted and put out there for you guys to peruse, I'm pretty much tuckered out for the time being. That is to say, there's no monster classes that I'm itching to finish and put out there, so when the Drow gets polished & put on the list (Centaur was just added), I don't know I'll be immediately plunking down another monster.

So for now, I expect I'll be doing critiques, giving feedback, answering questions and maintaining the thread. I may try my hand at finishing & posting one of the two (non-monster) base classes I've been working on, or getting a Play-by-Post game off the ground.

Stycotl
2011-03-17, 05:30 PM
the frostwind virago looks stupendously awesome, hyudra. i might have to whip up a nice npc just for that now.

Hyudra
2011-03-17, 05:37 PM
the frostwind virago looks stupendously awesome, hyudra. i might have to whip up a nice npc just for that now.

Thank you kindly. I was itching for some feedback - whether it's "That's terrible" or something like what you had to offer. It's tough when you spend a while working on something and then post it, and get nothing in the way of replies. Even the little comments are much appreciated then.

If you do whip up a Frostwind Virago NPC, do share how it went.

Stycotl
2011-03-17, 05:39 PM
Thank you kindly. I was itching for some feedback - whether it's "That's terrible" or something like what you had to offer. It's tough when you spend a while working on something and then post it, and get nothing in the way of replies. Even the little comments are much appreciated then.

If you do whip up a Frostwind Virago NPC, do share how it went.

definitely. if i do, that would give me time to do a decent critique of it too.

Makiru
2011-03-17, 06:10 PM
Post lock cut me off yesterday, but here's the finished garngrath.

Garngrath
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/MM5_Gallery/106336.jpg
Monster Class
Monster Manual V
Class
HD: D10
{table=head]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|
Special
1|
+0|
+2|
+2|
+0|Garngrath Body, Improved Grab, +1 Str, +1 Con

2|
+1|
+3|
+3|
+0|Crystal Horn 1, +1 Str, +1 Con

3|
+2|
+3|
+3|
+1|Divine Resistance, +1 Str, +1 Con

4|
+3|
+4|
+4|
+1|Growth 1, Divine Mending, +1 Str, +1 Wis

5|
+3|
+4|
+4|
+1|Resonance Shield, +1 Str, +1 Con

6|
+4|
+5|
+5|
+2|Crystal Horn 2, +1 Str, +1 Con

7|
+5|
+5|
+5|
+2|Devastating Roar, +1 Str, +1 Con

8|
+6|
+6|
+6|
+2|Growth 2, Swallow Whole, +1 Str, +1 Wis

9|
+6|
+6|
+6|
+3|Crystal Horn 3, +1 Str, +1 Con

10|
+7|
+7|
+7|
+3|Resonance Distortion, +1 Str, +1 Con

11|
+8|
+7|
+7|
+3|Crystal Horn 4, +1 Str, +1 Con

12|
+9|
+8|
+8|
+4|Growth 3, Superior Mending, +1 Str, +1 Wis

13|
+9|
+8|
+8|
+4|Swallowing Charge, +1 Str, +1 Con

14|
+10|
+9|
+9|
+4|Crystal Horn 5, +1 Str, +1 Con

15|
+11|
+9|
+9|
+5|Destructive Regurgitation, +1 Str, +1 Con

16|
+12|
+10|
+10|
+5|Growth 4, +1 Str, +1 Wis

17|
+12|
+10|
+10|
+5|Crystal Horn 6, +1 Str, +1 Con

18|
+13|
+11|
+11|
+6|Plane Shift, +1 Str, +1 Con

19|
+14|
+11|
+11|
+6|Inescapable Maw, +1 Str, +1 Con

20|
+15|
+12|
+12|
+6|Crystal Horn 7, Avatar of Destruction, Juggernaut, +1 Str, +1 Wis[/table]

Skill Points: 2+Int, 4x at 1st level
Class skills: Jump, Listen, Spot, Survival

Proficiencies: Natural weapons, no armor or shields

Garngrath Body: The garngrath loses all racial traits and becomes a Medium Magical Beast.
It has a move speed of 30 feet and a burrow speed of 10 feet(loose soil only, must hold breath when burrowing), as well as darkvision out to 60 feet.
It possesses a single primary bite attack that deals 2d6+ 1.5Str damage.
The garngrath understands Common, but cannot speak. Anyone that stays in the company of the garngrath for over a week can understand simple concepts from its body language (such as fear, anger, worry, and so forth).
The garngrath is unable to wield weapons or perform fine manipulation.
The garngrath gains a natural armor bonus equal to its Constitution modifier.

Ability Bonuses: The garngrath gains a +1 bonus to Strength at each level.
It also gains a +1 bonus to Wisdom every 4 levels and a +1 to Constitution each level it doesn't gain a Wisdom bonus.
This adds up to +20 Strength, +15 Constitution, and +5 Wisdom at 20th level.

Improved Grab(Ex): If the garngrath successfully hits with its bite attack, it may attempt a grapple check as a free action.
A grapple check can only be made this way against a creature at least one size category smaller than the garngrath.
The garngrath may take a -20 penalty on its grapple check to not be considered grappled and hold the opponent in its mouth.
Each successful grapple check made during successive rounds deals bite damage to the held creature.

Crystal Horn 1 (Sp): The crystal horn atop the garngrath's head can now begin to emulate the abilities of a prismatic spray.
Starting out, it only has the power of the red section: 1 fire damage/HD, Reflex save half. DC is 10 + 1/2 HD + Wis mod.
The garngrath can fire it's crystal horn as a swift action.
This power effects all creatures in a 60-foot cone originating from the garngrath's space.

Divine Resistance(Ex): As a creature formed by the whim of Erythnul, the garngrath shares many of an outsider's defensive abilities. At 3rd level, the garngrath gains resistance to sonic, fire, and electricity damage equal to its HD and resistance to acid and cold damage equal to 1/2 HD. In addition, it gains a bonus to saves versus ability drain, energy drain, illusion effects, and insanity equal to 1/2 HD.

Growth 1(Ex): At 4th level, the garngrath grows one size category, to Large. Its land and burrow speeds both increase by 10 feet.
In addition, the garngrath can now burrow through packed earth, but still has to hold its breath.

Divine Mending(Ex): Also at 4th level, the garngrath begins to shrug off physical injury at increasing speeds.
It gains DR/magic and fast healing, both equal to 1/2 its HD.
The garngrath's bite attack counts as magic for the purposes of penetrating DR.

Resonance Shield(Su): At 5th level, the chaotic energies that make up the core of the garngrath start to manifest as a physical barrier that further protects it from harm. The garngrath gains a deflection bonus to AC equal to 1/2 its Constitution bonus.

Crystal Horn 2 (Sp): At 6th level, the crystal horn gains its second hue, orange, and begins firing in much more chaotic patterns. When using the crystal horn, roll 1d3 and consult the following table for the result:

{table=head]1d3|Color|
Effect
[CENTER]1|
Red|
1 fire damage/HD, Reflex save half
2|
Orange|
2 acid damage/HD, Reflex save half
3|
---|
struck by two rays, roll twice, disregarding any "3" results[/table]

DCs are 10 + 1/2 HD + Wis mod.

Devastating Roar(Ex): At 7th level, as a full-round action, the garngrath can unleash a roar of such ferocity that it damages creatures and structures. This attack deals 1d6/HD sonic damage in a 60-foot radius spread, Reflex save for half damage. In addition, this roar levels all terrain adjacent to the garngrath, reducing it to light rubble and increasing the DC of Balance and Tumble checks in those areas by 2. The save DC is 10 + 1/2 HD + Con mod.

Growth 2(Ex): At 8th level, the garngrath grows one size category, to Huge. Its land and burrow speeds both increase by 10 feet.
In addition, the garngrath can now burrow without having to hold its breath.

Swallow Whole(Ex): A garngrath of 8th level or higher can swallow an opponent that it is grappling. To do this, it must succeed on another grapple check (as if to pin the opponent). If successful, it swallows the foe, delivering bite damage. Opponents to be swallowed must be at least one size category smaller than the garngrath.

Swallowed foes are crushed each round, taking the same damage they would from a bite (but as blunt damage) and suffering twice the garngrath's Con bonus in acid damage. Swallowed creatures are considered grappled, but the garngrath isn't. To escape, they must cut their way through of the garngrath's gizzard. To do so, they must attack with a light/natural slashing weapon and deliver at least 5/HD points of damage. Use the garngrath's flat-footed AC as the to-hit (however, the garngrath is not considered flat-footed in this situation). Apply DR as normal. Once the creature escapes, muscular action closes the hole.
The garngrath's gizzard can hold 2 creatures or objects of the maximum size. This number is doubled for each size category smaller of opponent.

Crystal Horn 3(Sp): At 9th level, the crystal horn gains its third hue, yellow. Roll 1d4 using the following table when using this ability.

{table=head]1d4|Color|
Effect
1|
Red|[CENTER]1 fire damage/HD, Reflex save half[.CENTER]

2|
Orange|
2 acid damage/HD, Reflex save half
3|
Yellow|
4 electricity damage/HD, Reflex save half
4|
---|
struck by two rays, roll twice, disregarding any "4" results[/table]

DCs are 10 + 1/2 HD + Wis mod.

Resonance Distortion(Su): At 10th level, the chaotic energies that form the core of the garngrath warps and blurs the vision of those that look upon it. All attacks made against the garngrath now suffer a 20% miss chance. Swallowed creatures are not subject to this miss chance.

Crystal Horn 4(Sp): At 11th level, the crystal horn gains a very potent shade, green. Roll 1d10 when using crystal horn and use the updated table below:

{table=head]1d10|Color|
Effect
1-2|
Red|
1 fire damage/HD, Reflex save half
3-4|
Orange|
2 acid damage/HD, Reflex save half
5-6|
Yellow|
4 electricity damage/HD, Reflex save half
7-8|
Green|
Poison (kills, Fort save 1d6 Con damage)
9-10|
---|
struck by two rays, roll twice, disregarding any "5" results[/table]

DCs are 10 + 1/2 HD + Wis mod.

Growth 3(Ex): At 12th level, the garngrath grows one size category, to Gargantuan. Its land and burrow speeds both increase by 10 feet.
In addition, the garngrath can now burrow through stone.

Superior Mending(Ex): At 12th level, the garngrath's defenses supercharge. It's fast healing and DR now equal 3/4 its HD. In addition, its DR is now /magic and law.

Swallowing Charge(Ex): At 13th level, as a full-round action, the garngrath can open its massive jaws, lower them to the ground and rush forward its move speed, swallowing everything in its path.
Any creature up to one size category smaller who's space is fully covered by the garngrath at any point during this move must make a grapple check as though being swallowed whole or be immediately passed into the garngrath's gizzard. Any unattended object or structure up to one size category smaller than the garngrath in its path is automatically swallowed as well, but count as a size smaller for determining space left in the gizzard and for destructive regurgitation (see below).

Crystal Horn 5(Sp): At 14th level, the 5th color of the spectrum, blue, comes into focus. Roll 1d6 using the following table when using this ability.

{table=head]1d6|Color|
Effect
1|
Red|
1 fire damage/HD, Reflex save half
2|
Orange|
2 acid damage/HD, Reflex save half
3|
Yellow|
4 electricity damage/HD, Reflex save half
4|
Green|
Poison (kills, Fort save 1d6 Con damage)
5|
Blue|
Petrification, Fort save negates
6|
---|
struck by two rays, roll twice, disregarding any "6" results[/table]

DCs are 10 + 1/2 HD + Wis mod.

Destructive Regurgitation(Ex): At 15th level, the garngrath develops a deadly attack form that uses the contents of its gizzard as living ammunition. As a full-round action that provokes an attack of opportunity, the garngrath can upchuck all still-living creatures and intact objects inside it at a single target within 100 feet. Damage is calculated according to the size of each object plus 1d6 acid damage per object, added together, plus the garngrath's strength modifier.

Damage = (Sum of object's damage rolls)+((#of objects)d6 acid)+Strength mod

{table=head]Object Size|Damage

Fine|
---
Diminutive|
1
Tiny|
1d4
Small|
1d6
Medium|
1d8
Large|
2d6
Huge|
2d8
Gargantuan|
3d6[/table]

The target gets a Reflex save for half damage. Save DC is 10 + 1/2 HD + Con mod. Creatures spat out land in another square as though they were a grenade weapon, and take 1d6 acid damage at the beginning of their next action.

Growth 4(Ex): At 16th level, the garngrath grows one size category, to Colossal. Its land and burrow speeds both increase by 10 feet.
In addition, the garngrath can now burrow through base metal (copper, iron, steel, etc).

Crystal Horn 6(Sp): At 17th level, the 6th color, indigo, reaches potency. Roll using the following table.

{table=head]1d8|Color|
Effect
1|
Red|
1 fire damage/HD, Reflex save half
2|
Orange|
2 acid damage/HD, Reflex save half
3|
Yellow|
4 electricity damage/HD, Reflex save half
4|
Green|
Poison (kills, Fort save 1d6 Con damage)
5|
Blue|
Petrification, Fort save negates
6|
Indigo|
Insane, as insanity spell, Will save negates
7|
---|[CENTER]struck by two rays, roll twice, disregarding any "7" results

8|
---|
disregard rolls of "8"[/table]

DCs are 10 + 1/2 HD + Wis mod.

Plane Shift(Sp): At 18th level, the garngrath can use the chaotic energy of its resonance shield to force a tear in planar boundaries. It can plane shift (as the spell) once per day.

Inescapable Maw(Su): At 19th level, the garngrath's bite and gizzard become magically impervious to escape. Anybody held in the mouth or gizzard of the garngrath cannot escape via teleportation. Freedom of Movement does not prevent someone from being grappled by the garngrath, either.

Crystal Horn 7(Sp): At 20th level, the garngrath's horn reaches its full power with the final color, violet. Roll using the following table.

{table=head]1d8|Color|
Effect
1|
Red|
1 fire damage/HD, Reflex save half
2|
Orange|
2 acid damage/HD, Reflex save half
3|
Yellow|
4 electricity damage/HD, Reflex save half
4|
Green|
Poison (kills, Fort save 1d6 Con damage)
5|
Blue|
Petrification, Fort save negates
6|
Indigo|
Insane, as insanity spell, Will save negates
7|
Violet|
Sent to random plane, Will save negates
8|
---|
struck by two rays, roll twice, disregarding any "8" results[/table]

DCs are 10 + 1/2 HD + Wis mod.

Juggernaut(Ex): Puny walls and barriers no longer hinder the garngrath. At 20th level, the garngrath can move its burrow speed through any material with a hardness of 30 or less.

Also, the garngrath's DR upgrades to /magic and epic. The garngrath's bite counts as epic and magic for the purposes of penetrating DR.

Avatar of Destruction(Su): Chaos and entropy go hand in hand, and, at 20th level, the garngrath is the epitome of that axiom. Three times per day, the garngrath can spit out an orb of pure void out to 20 feet as a standard action that provokes an attack of opportunity. This orb is identical to a sphere of annihilation, except it has no effect on the garngrath that produced it. This orb lasts a number of rounds equal to the garngrath's Wisdom modifier.

Comments:
This took me way longer than it should have to finish. This is my first epic monster, which is more or less a fix of the tarrasque. The crystal horn is the main standout ability of the monster, making it able to finally do something to flying enemies. Apart from that, its abilities center around either being big and tough, different ways to use swallow whole, or just having different combat forms to mix up the play style. The original tarrasque and purple worm classes were looked at to figure out some formatting of abilities and just general ways to make a beat stick more interesting to play. Overall, I feel satisfied with the way it turned out in the end, and I hope the rest of the thread feels the same way.

Changelog:
3/16: class finished
3/17: class posted
3/18: Fairly basic changes: bite deals 1.5 Str, abilities reworded for clarity.
3/20: tables changed for simplicity; added Superior Mending.
3/23: fixed spelling errors, added save calculation to each ability, table formatting.

Zemro
2011-03-17, 06:58 PM
Alright, I've gone through the first couple steps, so now it's time to bring things to the thread.

I'm looking to adopt the currently abandoned Dwarf Ancestor (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9967230&postcount=491) racial class in an effort to create a version that meets approval.

My plans largely involving reworking the original creature, retaining elements that were possessed by the base creature and keeping with some of the other thematics. I'm going to dispense with the construct-esk armour progression (never really thought it fit the monster myself) and instead do a bit more with the aura and blink-out abilities.

From how I figure this goes, if anyone else has been stewing ideas about adopting it on their own, or is strongly opposed to my proposed tactics involving building the class, now's the time to speak.

Additionally, since the various Archon monsters have some similar elements I'd like to call dibs on remaining Archons and see what I can churn out there. That includes a rework of the Hound Archon (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7987311&postcount=89) and I had heard something about some work having already been done with the Trumpet Archon? There's the Lantern Archon (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9147212&postcount=1301) in existence as well, but I'm not sure how it stands presently.

Either way, I figure that since the base monsters have common elements it would add cohesion to the project if the classes reflected that with some thematic and mechanic similarities.

Hyudra
2011-03-17, 07:49 PM
I'd be ok with you doing Dwarf Ancestor when you've wrapped up the Justice Archon, Zemro - your work is consistently good. That said, get the ok from Gorgon and Kyuubi (though Kyuub is posting infrequently enough that I think schoolwork may be taking precedence, so less pressure there) beforehand. That should leave enough time for anyone else that wants to do it to chime in.

The Trumpet Archon, as I understand it, was started & abandoned a good bit before I started the new thread, and as such hasn't even made it onto the abandoned list. It may be resumed & posted in the near future, as I recall.

Bloody Initiate
2011-03-17, 10:08 PM
Don't have much time for full critiques at the moment, but...

Why does the Frostwind Virago, a fey which focuses on BFC and touch attacks, need 3/4s BAB. It's minor, just out of sync with a lot of precedent.

Why does the Garngrath, a magical beast "avatar of destruction," have 3/4s BAB? Magical Beasts have full BAB, and combat classes have full BAB, so why snub the poor Garngrath? It has ONE attack and can only make ONE attack with it, and you're going to short him 5 points of attack bonus?!?

Furthermore, on the Garngrath, this guy takes entire rounds to do one thing at a time. I have no idea how he's supposed to survive high level play. He can barely move and attack.

Hyudra
2011-03-17, 10:29 PM
Don't have much time for full critiques at the moment, but...

Why does the Frostwind Virago, a fey which focuses on BFC and touch attacks, need 3/4s BAB. It's minor, just out of sync with a lot of precedent.

Same general blueprint as the Warlock, same BAB progression. There was simply no reason to lower it, and generally speaking, only classes with full casting generally get the ½ BAB.


Why does the Garngrath, a magical beast "avatar of destruction," have 3/4s BAB? Magical Beasts have full BAB, and combat classes have full BAB, so why snub the poor Garngrath?

"Magical Beasts have full BAB" - what? Where are you getting this from?

Bloody Initiate
2011-03-17, 10:52 PM
"Magical Beasts have full BAB" - what? Where are you getting this from?

The Monster Manual... and the Garngrath entry...












Page 311 of the Monster Manual, in case you're curious.

Also Fey have half BAB, but actually the inspiration for my comment about the Frostwind Virago cam from the Dragonfire Adept.

Benly
2011-03-17, 11:03 PM
Also Fey have half BAB, but actually the inspiration for my comment about the Frostwind Virago cam from the Dragonfire Adept.

Dragonfire Adept's primary attack ability doesn't have any attack roll at all. Almost none of its special abilities do. Frostbite Touch does have an attack roll, and for best damage it's not a touch attack even, so medium makes sense.

I've only had time to skim the FV but it looks neat. There are two consecutive ability descriptions called "Faeriekind", though, which I assume is a typo.

Hyudra
2011-03-17, 11:13 PM
The Monster Manual... and the Garngrath entry...

Page 311 of the Monster Manual, in case you're curious.

Also Fey have half BAB, but actually the inspiration for my comment about the Frostwind Virago cam from the Dragonfire Adept.

No, I'm aware of the general standards... but this project doesn't hold to that. We've said it a bajillion times, it was on the front page forever, and it's currently in the FAQ. We don't adhere strictly to type standards, and that includes BAB/saves. That's just a shortcut for DMs. These are classes for players.


Dragonfire Adept's primary attack ability doesn't have any attack roll at all. Almost none of its special abilities do. Frostbite Touch does have an attack roll, and for best damage it's not a touch attack even, so medium makes sense.

I've only had time to skim the FV but it looks neat. There are two consecutive ability descriptions called "Faeriekind", though, which I assume is a typo.

It was a holdover from when Glamour was SLAs and The Faeriekind/Faeriekith/Faerieblood/Faerie Noble line of abilities was general passive benefits. I decided to stress the SLAs more and switched it around. Thanks for pointing it out.

Bloody Initiate
2011-03-17, 11:42 PM
I too am aware of the "general standards" of this project.

It's still a magical beast combat class with 3/4s BAB, which doesn't make any more sense now than it did before we had this exchange.

Maybe if he'd gone an "ambush from burrow" route with the class then the 3/4s would make sense, but as it is it doesn't make any. It's a magical beast who is supposed to fight stuff and having 3/4s feels like a gyp. I know BAB doesn't even matter that much, but that makes the nerf feels even more random and unnecessary.

Hyudra
2011-03-17, 11:54 PM
Strength bonuses compensate for the loss of BAB. It's the way we do untrained 'brute' monsters. It's the standard used for more monsters than I can recall at this point in time. Again, it's explained in the FAQ. The Gargranth does not suffer for the lack of full BAB.

NineThePuma
2011-03-18, 01:15 AM
It's the way we do untrained 'brute' monsters.

And suddenly, I have to ask... what about TRAINED 'brute' monsters? Warrior outsiders, or dragons, and the like.

Gorgondantess
2011-03-18, 01:18 AM
And suddenly, I have to ask... what about TRAINED 'brute' monsters? Warrior outsiders, or dragons, and the like.

Then they'll usually get slightly less of a bonus to strength and full BAB.
Though Dragons should, arguably, get 3/4 BAB. >.>

NineThePuma
2011-03-18, 01:21 AM
Dragons instinctively have all of the fighting talent learned over generations of their species, thanks to an ancestral memory. =|

If that doesn't say "We know how to fight" then I don't know what does.

Gorgondantess
2011-03-18, 01:22 AM
Dragons instinctively have all of the fighting talent learned over generations of their species, thanks to an ancestral memory. =|

If that doesn't say "We know how to fight" then I don't know what does.

Huh. I thought that was aboleths.:smalltongue:

Hyudra
2011-03-18, 01:26 AM
Eh. Ancestral memory isn't consistent enough or prevalent enough in lore to warrant it justifying such. I don't even remember coming across such, even while reading up on dragons for the Xorvintaal Dragon project. Further, dragons use natural attacks and only in the rarest instances do they use weapons, so it's not liable to matter anyways.

In any event, even if we went that route, ancestral memory would justfy something being done with skills long before it justified a full BAB. Even if we did go with such a (kind of flimsy) justification for full BAB, one could handwave it by saying dragons have to get used to a new and constantly growing body. It's like a teenager in a growth spurt all the time - there's a general awkwardness that a dragon won't get over until it's a hundred years old or older.

NineThePuma
2011-03-18, 01:28 AM
It's mentioned in the Draconomicon that they have a portion of their brain that is duplicated almost exactly from their parents; basically, their instincts and habitual stuff come from their parents. Of course, I've also been reading the 4e Draconomicon for my dragon project, so I could be mixing up fluffs.

Bloody Initiate
2011-03-18, 01:31 AM
Garngrath

-I suggest Full BAB. This guy is supposed to get into melee, and he can't even power attack for 20 if someone bothers to give him True Strike.
-No more than Strength damage on its bite? The one in MM5 has 1 1/5 times its strength on bites as do MOST things with bite attacks as their primary. This guy has ONE attack, gets +20 strength, and isn't even allowed to apply 1.5 str to his bite? This also screws him over further in the Power Attack department, making him get 1:1 from power attack when he should be getting 1:2
-I know the original can't speak, but having no way to communicate with your team makes things harder than they have to be on everyone else.
-Why not make the natural armor bonus based on strength instead? I know it's not standard, but his AC is going to be a big weakness already, with a few more points you can maybe keep people from power attacking for ALL their BAB.
-Another option is to ditch the wisdom bonuses in favor of +5 more con, but shoring up that will save is also important.
-Maybe unlock more of the horn's abilities earlier on, but not the save or die ones? You could start by rolling a d4 (Fire, Acid, Electricity, Poison that does Con Damage) and upgrade later to a d6 (+Poison like in original entry, turn to stone, insanity) and then to a d8 (+send to another plane and roll twice, effects from rolling twice take place in numerical order). You could even go up to a d10, no reason to confine yourself so much to the original entry.
-The fire damage option on the MM5 Garngrath is lame, no need to repeat the mistake. Making it a d6 per HD is nice and easy as well as being worlds more appropriate.
-Also the save DCs being based on Wisdom is a sort of pointless hold over from the original. The crystal horn feels more like a breath weapon or something natural like that, so the save DCs should come from constitution.
-By the way, what exactly does burrow (surface) mean? I'm pretty sure if you don't go under you're really not burrowing. Why put a nerf in at all? Just let the poor guy burrow. I can't even imagine a use for "move slowly through the top of this dirt" with no Hide skill to speak of, so the "loose soil" and "surface" nerfs just strike me as pointless.
-You nerfed his DR too? That poor guy! DR 10/- isn't going to break anything, it seems like you were afraid of being overpowered and so you pre-emptively beat him down with a nerf bat until he was just as you said: Tarrasque-lite
-His AC is going to be so bad he shouldn't even have it. He can buy a better deflection bonus than he'll have at level 20... well before level 20. Basing it on an ability score would have done him better, or at least on a more favorable fraction of his HD
-As I said about the fire damage I'll say again about the Acid damage. Also check out the "Rays of [element]" and "Orb of [element]" spells in the Spell Compendium for some inspiration on additional effects.
-Maybe make the action required to do a devastating roar shorten from full-round and give the Garngrath the OPTION to destroy all the surrounding structures?
-The same for swallowing charge. Full-round actions are a steep price to pay for certain attacks, and the action required should reduce so it scales in usefulness.
-Destructive Regurgitation should be able to target squares instead of creatures, that way spitting out a larger thing gains additional benefits. I also see no reason for it to take a full-round action and provoke AoOs, or at least it shouldn't stay so costly. As it is this is an attack without much use. The only time the garngrath could use this is if no one was looking at it and they were all out of its range. If they are attacking it, its better off burrowing away to escape because it can't compete with ANYONE at range. The damage could also use an upgrade, perhaps add the garngrath's strength to it?
-I'd give him more plane shifts. No real reason not to, but it's not a big deal either way.
-I like inescapable maw, although it might come a bit late. Also, it doesn't really work as it is. You have it cancelling Freedom of Movement effects once they're in its mouth. They auto-succeed the grapple check to avoid getting in its mouth in the first place.
-I like Avatar of Destruction, but I never give a flat amount of uses/day to an ability. The times per day should be upgradeable somehow, either tied to an ability score or scaled with HD. That's just my opinion though, I always hated per day abilities.

Overall I think you just were too afraid to give this guy anything nice. You nerfed him from the MM5 version when you could except when creativity would do him a favor (Prismatic spray abilities, for example). This guy gets owned by anyone with a magic weapon and power attack.

Suggestions I didn't include above:
-More unique abilities, too much of this guy comes straight from MM5
-Make his bite count as magical for the purposes of overcoming damage reduction
-Give him a meaningful full attack somehow. Perhaps get the actions low enough that he can roar, prismatic spray, and bite all in one round? Or make it so he can make iterative attacks with his bite? As it is you can make ONE attack or risk wasting a full round action. Even a bite that grapples on the first bit, then gets 3 free bites on a successfully grappled opponent, would be better than nothing and gives you a meaningful shtick (Kill one enemy at a time is a meaningful shtick).
-Give the player room to make the monster their own. I don't have many ideas about this, but there are no choices after the first choice (The choice to take the class). Most of your feat choices won't even matter.

I hope all that helps.

Makiru
2011-03-18, 06:22 AM
Garngrath

-I suggest Full BAB. This guy is supposed to get into melee, and he can't even power attack for 20 if someone bothers to give him True Strike.
Full BAB and Strength each level is a bit much, but I will keep it under consideration if it is deemed necessary.
-No more than Strength damage on its bite? The one in MM5 has 1 1/5 times its strength on bites as do MOST things with bite attacks as their primary. This guy has ONE attack, gets +20 strength, and isn't even allowed to apply 1.5 str to his bite? This also screws him over further in the Power Attack department, making him get 1:1 from power attack when he should be getting 1:2
...I honestly just missed that when doing the math. That is easily fixable.
-I know the original can't speak, but having no way to communicate with your team makes things harder than they have to be on everyone else.
It can communicate through basic gestures and understands Common just fine.
-Why not make the natural armor bonus based on strength instead? I know it's not standard, but his AC is going to be a big weakness already, with a few more points you can maybe keep people from power attacking for ALL their BAB.
I tried doing something like that once with the Roving Mauler and people got on my case. Best to just not risk it.
-Another option is to ditch the wisdom bonuses in favor of +5 more con, but shoring up that will save is also important.
-Maybe unlock more of the horn's abilities earlier on, but not the save or die ones? You could start by rolling a d4 (Fire, Acid, Electricity, Poison that does Con Damage) and upgrade later to a d6 (+Poison like in original entry, turn to stone, insanity) and then to a d8 (+send to another plane and roll twice, effects from rolling twice take place in numerical order). You could even go up to a d10, no reason to confine yourself so much to the original entry.
An at-will, swift action spell-like ability is kinda scary, and I spaced out the effects to be active around the same level a wizard could cast something similar, for instance, the save-or-die around the time of 5th level spells.
-The fire damage option on the MM5 Garngrath is lame, no need to repeat the mistake. Making it a d6 per HD is nice and easy as well as being worlds more appropriate.
Probably a d4 at best; again, at-will swift action spell-like ability.
-Also the save DCs being based on Wisdom is a sort of pointless hold over from the original. The crystal horn feels more like a breath weapon or something natural like that, so the save DCs should come from constitution.
...except for the fact that the horn is a clearly magical effect? Well, this is what critiques are for.
-By the way, what exactly does burrow (surface) mean? I'm pretty sure if you don't go under you're really not burrowing. Why put a nerf in at all? Just let the poor guy burrow. I can't even imagine a use for "move slowly through the top of this dirt" with no Hide skill to speak of, so the "loose soil" and "surface" nerfs just strike me as pointless.
I kinda used the Purple Worm class as a basis for how to parcel out burrowing, since extra movement modes at first level tend to make things really easy to bypass. Although it could be worded a bit better.
-You nerfed his DR too? That poor guy! DR 10/- isn't going to break anything, it seems like you were afraid of being overpowered and so you pre-emptively beat him down with a nerf bat until he was just as you said: Tarrasque-lite
I suppose I did. Upgrading it to 3/4 HD might be pushing it, though.
-His AC is going to be so bad he shouldn't even have it. He can buy a better deflection bonus than he'll have at level 20... well before level 20. Basing it on an ability score would have done him better, or at least on a more favorable fraction of his HD
OK, I done goofed there. Basing it on Con mod might be too much...we'll see.
-As I said about the fire damage I'll say again about the Acid damage. Also check out the "Rays of [element]" and "Orb of [element]" spells in the Spell Compendium for some inspiration on additional effects.
Duly noted
-Maybe make the action required to do a devastating roar shorten from full-round and give the Garngrath the OPTION to destroy all the surrounding structures?
The way I pictured it, it was just a loud, indiscriminate bellow in an all-or-nothing kinda way. Also, it doesn't destroy structures, just turns all the squares adjacent to it into light rubble. Might lower to standard action.
-The same for swallowing charge. Full-round actions are a steep price to pay for certain attacks, and the action required should reduce so it scales in usefulness.
Normal charges are a full-round action. I see no reason for this not to be.
-Destructive Regurgitation should be able to target squares instead of creatures, that way spitting out a larger thing gains additional benefits. I also see no reason for it to take a full-round action and provoke AoOs, or at least it shouldn't stay so costly. As it is this is an attack without much use. The only time the garngrath could use this is if no one was looking at it and they were all out of its range. If they are attacking it, its better off burrowing away to escape because it can't compete with ANYONE at range. The damage could also use an upgrade, perhaps add the garngrath's strength to it?
I did consider having it target squares, but that caused me headaches. Probably get rid of provoking AoOs, at least. Probably should be a standard action, regardless. Forgot to add strength, my bad.
-I'd give him more plane shifts. No real reason not to, but it's not a big deal either way.
The one plane shift is really just a "get out of jail free" card.
-I like inescapable maw, although it might come a bit late. Also, it doesn't really work as it is. You have it cancelling Freedom of Movement effects once they're in its mouth. They auto-succeed the grapple check to avoid getting in its mouth in the first place.
Didn't know that. Easy enough to fix.
-I like Avatar of Destruction, but I never give a flat amount of uses/day to an ability. The times per day should be upgradeable somehow, either tied to an ability score or scaled with HD. That's just my opinion though, I always hated per day abilities.
I don't know, firing spheres of annihilation feels like something that should have a low number of uses to me.

Overall I think you just were too afraid to give this guy anything nice. You nerfed him from the MM5 version when you could except when creativity would do him a favor (Prismatic spray abilities, for example). This guy gets owned by anyone with a magic weapon and power attack.

Suggestions I didn't include above:
-More unique abilities, too much of this guy comes straight from MM5
-Make his bite count as magical for the purposes of overcoming damage reduction
-Give him a meaningful full attack somehow. Perhaps get the actions low enough that he can roar, prismatic spray, and bite all in one round? Or make it so he can make iterative attacks with his bite? As it is you can make ONE attack or risk wasting a full round action. Even a bite that grapples on the first bit, then gets 3 free bites on a successfully grappled opponent, would be better than nothing and gives you a meaningful shtick (Kill one enemy at a time is a meaningful shtick).
-Give the player room to make the monster their own. I don't have many ideas about this, but there are no choices after the first choice (The choice to take the class). Most of your feat choices won't even matter.

I hope all that helps.

I'll make the simple changes now, but I won't make any huge changes until I get a council critique.

Lix Lorn
2011-03-18, 06:55 AM
-I suggest Full BAB. This guy is supposed to get into melee, and he can't even power attack for 20 if someone bothers to give him True Strike.
Full BAB and Strength each level is a bit much, but I will keep it under consideration if it is deemed necessary.
I believe that's actually a standard ruling that you don't give both without good reason. Good call. :smallsmile:

Bloody Initiate
2011-03-18, 01:23 PM
I believe that's actually a standard ruling that you don't give both without good reason. Good call. :smallsmile:

Except that the Garngrath isn't standard by any means. Combat classes have more than one attack. They just do. They either have multiple attacks from a high base attack bonus or an array of natural weapons.

The Garngrath has one. If he misses his round is completely wasted aside from random chance at doing something harmful with his crystal horn. His attack bonus should be the best possible so that he only misses on a 1. Nobody misses HIM except on a 1, why nerf him? 5 points of BAB is either 5 more points of attack bonus (That's a meaningful amount) or 10 more points of damage, either one would help this Garngrath make his one attack a round matter.

Also his bite damage size progression isn't spelled out in this racial class, and there are plenty of GMs who don't read beyond the table. In each growth entry it should read the new bite damage so stingy GMs don't stick him at 4d6.

Lix Lorn
2011-03-18, 01:27 PM
The only one attack is a valid concern; perhaps Multiattack is necessary.

Also, none of the racial classes have damage by size spelled out. It's in the spoiler on 'growth' in the first post.

Bloody Initiate
2011-03-18, 02:04 PM
The only one attack is a valid concern; perhaps Multiattack is necessary.

Also, none of the racial classes have damage by size spelled out. It's in the spoiler on 'growth' in the first post.

I think you're thinking of Rapidstrike and Improved Rapidstrike, which the Garngrath doesn't officially qualify for because it only has one natural weapon. There are other ways though.

I also don't see where the damage dice are spelled out. I looked at the "Growth" spoiler and didn't find anything related to damage dice.

Scio
2011-03-18, 02:21 PM
Alright, I updated the Ettercap to match your critique, Hyudra. That's a pretty sweet picture, by the way, but I think it might be a bit too big.

Lix Lorn
2011-03-18, 02:39 PM
I think you're thinking of Rapidstrike and Improved Rapidstrike, which the Garngrath doesn't officially qualify for because it only has one natural weapon. There are other ways though.

I also don't see where the damage dice are spelled out. I looked at the "Growth" spoiler and didn't find anything related to damage dice.
I was thinking of the Druid's AC, which gets a bonus attack rather than Multiattack if it has just one weapon. Sorry.

Bottom of the table. Natural weapons damage increases one die size for each size increase.

NineThePuma
2011-03-18, 02:43 PM
I was thinking of the Druid's AC, which gets a bonus attack rather than Multiattack if it has just one weapon. Sorry.Wait. What?

Bloody Initiate
2011-03-18, 02:51 PM
Wait. What?

AC = Animal Companion

They get mulitattack for free if they have three or more natural weapons. If they don't they get a second attack with their primary at -5.

Lix Lorn
2011-03-18, 02:56 PM
Indeed, yes.

NineThePuma
2011-03-18, 02:59 PM
Huh. Savage bard is suddenly slightly more appealing now.

Hyudra
2011-03-18, 03:42 PM
Alright, I updated the Ettercap to match your critique, Hyudra. That's a pretty sweet picture, by the way, but I think it might be a bit too big.

I did state how to resize images in the image section of the project FAQ.

But here, cropped:

http://i52.tinypic.com/2crw03b.jpg

Necroticplague
2011-03-18, 08:03 PM
Ok, modified the phantom. Gave it less incorporeal jaunt to start, and a slower progression. Figure the new progression is actually more reasonable. Also became more specific what happens to your equipment when you turn incorporeal.

Frog Dragon
2011-03-19, 03:40 AM
Question: How much worth would Sneak Attack be, in comparison to Fighter Bonus feats? I intend to give the War Dragon path the option to either gain a fighter bonus feat (with a few draconic extras in the list), or a die of sneak attack, and I worry that the latter option might be useless. This would be gained at levels 1, 5, 9, 13 and 17.

Edit: This will, of course, be only a fraction of the benefits a War Dragon gains.

Bloody Initiate
2011-03-19, 03:54 AM
Question: How much worth would Sneak Attack be, in comparison to Fighter Bonus feats? I intend to give the War Dragon path the option to either gain a fighter bonus feat (with a few draconic extras in the list), or a die of sneak attack, and I worry that the latter option might be useless. This would be gained at levels 1, 5, 9, 13 and 17.

Edit: This will, of course, be only a fraction of the benefits a War Dragon gains.

Difficult to say exactly...

The fighter variant that trades feats for sneak attack is terrible, but the rogue variant that trades sneak attack for fighter bonus feats is quite useful for some builds.

Unearthed Arcana has sneak attack turned into feats in the same section as the generic classes.

Generally 1d6 sneak attack is NOT worth a feat, but a few more d6s might be. The difficulty of measuring it comes with the levels you base it on, because 10d6 sneak attack is pretty cool and handy, but it's not worth the price of 11 feats. Measuring at level 20 is a mistake though, because so much more of the game takes place before then.

Here's one way to do it:

The first time you trade the feat for sneak attack you get something like a +4 attack and +1d6 damage for sneak attacks and +4 to confirm crits.

Every other time after that when you trade a feat for sneak attack dice, you get as many sneak attack dice as occasions when you've opted to gain a sneak attack die in place of a feat. So the first feat gets you +1d6, but the second gets you +2d6, bringing the total to 3d6. The third time gets you +3d6, bringing your total to 6d6. If you trade four feats in you can have 10d6 sneak attack.

You can say the maximum amount of times you can do this is equal to your dex or intelligence bonus. You can also set minimum HD requirements or BAB requirements or some other form of prerequisite for multiple feat trades.

Basically you make it work like Font of Inspiration and heritage feats, where you are rewarded for investing feats and the bonus becomes more impressive the greater your investment. I always liked that form of scaling with investment.

Frog Dragon
2011-03-19, 08:36 AM
I went with a semi-expanding returns approach, granting +1d6 the first time it is taken, and +2d6 every subsequent time. I've now filled out more of the levels, and at this point, I need to think up interesting abilities for the two different types of dragons to gain as they advance in levels. Both gain "Breath Powers" which are essentially extra effects tacked onto the breath weapon at levels 3, 7, 11 and etc, while the Draconic Paths are more defining in the focus of a particular dragon. Now I kind of need ideas though. What would be a good ability for a draconic magician? A more combat focused dragon? Ideas would be welcome, since I'm kind of running a blank. This is tricky.

As a sidenote about the Druid List being underwhelming compared to the Sorcerer list, I've decided to give Druid-casting dragons extra spells from domain lists, granting them more spells known than their sorcerous brethren.

Hyudra
2011-03-19, 08:45 AM
Just to warn you - Gorgondantess tends to groan and moan a lot when bonus feats come up as a class feature, as be believes them lazy and poorly fit for a given monster's flavor. I tend to agree for the most part.

Frog Dragon
2011-03-19, 08:56 AM
In this case, I believe they are justified, since they are second fiddle to the actual draconic path abilities, and always come with more interesting abilities at the same level.

Hyudra
2011-03-19, 09:43 AM
Question is, could you replace those not-very-draconic sneak attack/fighter feats with suitably draconic abilities?

I mean, sure, maybe your design has draconic abilities that aren't overshadowed by such, but perhaps the entire package could be fittingly dragonish, rather than 60% (or 75%).

Frog Dragon
2011-03-19, 10:46 AM
The thing is, black dragons are sneaky, and sneak attack is a simple, straightforward way to give an advantage based on that. However, I don't want to make that mandatory. Also, it's not just fighter feats. It's also a bunch of much more dragon-ish feats.

Finally, if the rest of the package signifies the flavor well enough, where's the harm in adding a minor extra that isn't actually tailored to the flavor? If it's just something generic enough, it doesn't affect the flavor either way, and can be a good way to give a little extra boost to a class. I don't see the problem here.

Hyudra
2011-03-19, 12:10 PM
Sneak attack is generally interpreted as the figurative backstab, only reworked to reflect a game without facing (you're facing X direction) rules. The cunning attack that's placed in a vital area, a joint, an artery.

Black Dragons, conversely, are more of an ambush predator. The crocodile lurking on the water's surface. When a fitting prey approaches, the black dragon doesn't attack strategically, sliding a knife (or claw) between the ribs. It attacks suddenly, ferociously, mercilessly, as the crocodile does.

Frog Dragon
2011-03-19, 12:16 PM
That is a good point. Perhaps Sudden Strike or Skirmish would be more appropriate?

Cogidubnus
2011-03-19, 04:19 PM
And now I'm back! From outer space!
Yeah, I lost track of this thread after version 3 due to my own long absence. But I'd like to contribute some more, so...

Makiru
Garngath (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10576259&postcount=1320)

The guidelines say brutes should get Strength bonuses and 3/4 BAB, and this monster I think qualifies as a brute, so I say you made the right decision on the BAB.
Divine Mending: Maybe make it 1/2 HD at 4th level and then improve to 3/4 at 12th or something? Fast healing 3 at 4th level's pretty good.
Crystal Horn 2: Have you heard of a d3? It's a non-existent die made by rolling a d6 and treating 1-2 as 1, 3-4 as 2 and 5-6 as 3. Might be quite appropriate for this ability.
Plane Shift: Maybe make it 1/5 HD or something? That seems to be the standard approach to SLAs.

Otherwise, I do like it. Nice progression with the Prismatic Spray.

I hope that was right/helpful.

Hyudra: I like the Frostwind Virago. It gives me shivers :smalltongue: If you'd like, I can try and make more comments later, but just now there's a wee bit too much text for me.

Hyudra
2011-03-19, 04:45 PM
@ Cogidubnus:

Thanks for the feedback on the Frostwind Virago.

Re: your PM, I can't recall what CR (or what book) the Brass Golem is found in, but given you've already got two finished monsters on the list, I can't think of a compelling reason why you couldn't post it & put it through the process.

At some point though, I'd like to get back to the Arrow Demon. A few minor tweaks, changing it from full BAB + Str bonuses, maybe adding in an active ability in the place of something passive, to make it a little more dynamic to play.

Cogidubnus
2011-03-19, 04:54 PM
Brass Golem
http://magiclampoon.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/Brass-Golem.gif
Monster Class
Source of Original Monster: MMII.

Class:


HD: D10

{table=head]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|
Special

1st|
+0|
+0|
+0|
+0| Built With Purpose, Brass Golem Body, Solid Brass, Hunter’s Weapon, +1 Str, +1 Wis

2nd|
+1|
+0|
+0|
+0| Tracker, Scent, Adaptation, Str +1

3rd|
+2|
+ 1 |
+ 1 |
+1| Toughened Alloys, Resilience, Str +1

4th|
+3|
+ 1 |
+ 1 |
+ 1 | Magic Resistance, Made for the Hunt, Str +1

5th|
+3|
+ 1 |
+ 1 |
+ 1 | Growth, Continued Adaptation Str +1,

6th|
+4|
+2|
+ 2 |
+ 2 | Maze, Know Thy Enemy, Str +1, +1 Wis

7th|
+5|
+ 2 |
+ 2 |
+ 2 | Goring Charge, Improved Adaptation, Str +1

8th|
+6|
+ 2 |
+ 2 |
+ 2 | Play Theseus, Sheer Force, Str +1

9th|
+6|
+3|
+3|
+3| Re-forged Purpose, Str +1

10th|
+7|
+3|
+3|
+3| Labyrinthine Home, Instrument of Destruction, Str +1
[/table]

Skill Points: (2 + Int modifier) per level, x4 at first level.
Class Skills: The Brass Golem’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Survival (Wis).


Proficiencies: The Brass Golem gains proficiency with its own natural weapons, simple and martial weapons, but no forms of armour or shields.

Built With Purpose: All Brass Golems are built with a purpose. The Brass Golem has managed to shake off its, but it is still very single-minded. At 1st level, choose a single skill. It gains a +1 to all checks with this skill, but a -2 to one other skill.

Brass Golem Body: The Brass Golem loses all racial modifiers and receives the Construct type (which grants darkvision 60'), medium size, 30 ft. land speed, and a natural slam attack dealing 1d8+1.5x strength modifier damage.

The Brass Golem has all the characteristics of the construct type (which have been changed from the normal construct type, so it is highly advisable the below is read):

No Constitution score.
Darkvision out to 60 feet.
Immunity to all mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects).
Immunity to poison, sleep effects, paralysis, stunning, disease, death effects, and necromancy effects.
Not subject to critical hits, nonlethal damage, ability drain, ability damage, fatigue or exhaustion, or energy drain.
Cannot heal damage on its own, although it can be healed.
Immunity to any effect that requires a Fortitude save (unless the effect also works on objects or is harmless).
Not at risk of death from massive damage, but when reduced to 0 hit points or less, it is immediately destroyed.
Never being alive to begin with, a construct cannot be raised or resurrected. It can only be revived by a wish, limited wish, miracle, or by reconstructing the Brass Golem's body (requiring 1,000 pounds of brass- or the golem's previous body-, 2,500 gp worth of rare substances, and a DC 16 weapon-smithing or armour-smithing check) and then a reincarnate spell, which will always put the golem's soul into the new effigy.
Constructs do not breathe, eat, or sleep.


The Brass Golem gains natural armour bonus equal to his strength modifier. This natural armour bonus increases by 1 when the golem's size increases.
The Golem also gains +1 HP per HD. This bonus increases to +2 at 10 HD, +3 at 15 HD and+4 at 20 HD. The hp increases are retroactive.
The Brass Golem also has an electricity vulnerability, suffering +50% electricity damage from electric attacks. Magical fire damage heals the Brass golem 1 point of health per 3 damage it would normally do. An Brass golem is otherwise immune to fire.

Solid Brass: From 1st level, the Golem’s solid metal body helps to protect it, providing an armour bonus equal to 2 + 1/3 HD. This armour may be enchanted, but more armour may not be worn over the top.

Hunter’s Weapon (Su): From 1st level, the Golem can form a weapon of its choice that it is capable of wielding from its body as a full-round action. This weapon may be enchanted, and doing so costs the same amount as enchanting a normal weapon. Should this weapon ever be lost (but not broken or disjoined), then after 24 hours its essence melts back into the flow of magic to rejoin its Golem creator and is available to be formed again.
The Golem can form one Hunter's Weapon per 24 hours, but the weapon loses its edge when wielded by anyone other than the Golem and becomes useless.

Ability Score Increases: The Brass Golem gets a +1 bonus to its Wisdom score at 1st and 6th levels (+2 overall) to represent its artificial animal cunning.
It also gains a +1 bonus to Strength at every level after 1st (total +9).

Tracker: At 2nd level, the Brass Golem gains Track as a bonus feat. In addition, it gains a bonus to Survival checks to track enemies equal to ½ its HD.

Scent: At 2nd level, The Brass Golem gains the Scent ability, allowing it to track enemies by smell and detect the presence of creatures within 30ft. (need to link to SRD).

Adaptation: The Golem’s time among mortals and thinking for itself has allowed it to develop its own unique abilities. At 2nd level, choose a special ability from the list below:
Aluminium Alloy: The Golem's brass is alloyed with aluminium, making it stronger. The Golem's armour bonus from Solid Brass is increased to +1/2 HD.
Preservative Layer: The Golem's brass body becomes covered with a transparent layer of oil, which feels like brass. Choose an energy type. The Golem gains energy resistance equal to half its HD against that energy type. If electricity is chosen, the Brass Golem's vulnerability is instead removed. This ability may be taken multiple times for different energy types.
Misleading: The Golem is an expert at tricking enemies. Gain Hypnotic Pattern as an SLA 1/HD/day. Gain Bluff as a class skill and a bonus to Bluff checks equal to 1/2 HD.

Toughened Alloys: From 3rd level, the Brass Golem gains DR/Adamantium equal to half its HD.

Resilience: At 3rd level, choose a save. The Golem receives a bonus to this save equal to its Wisdom modifier.

Magic Resistance: At 4th level, The Golem gains SR 11+HD

Made for the Hunt: From 4th level, as a free action once per turn, the Brass Golem may dedicate one creature as his hunted target. To designate his hunted target, the Golem must either be able to see them, have a piece of their hair, clothing or equipment, or know them well enough to recognise them on sight.
The Brass Golem may only have one hunted target at a time, and once a Golem selects a hunted target during an encounter, he cannot change it during that encounter until his target is defeated.. Against his hunted target, the Brass Golem gains a bonus to Survival checks made to track it equal to his HD. In addition, he may move double his normal move allowance whenever he moves towards his hunted target.
If the Brass Golem succeeds on a melee attack against his hunted target, they must succeed on a Fortitude save (DC 10 +1/2 HD + Wis Modifier) or be sickened for one round. A hunted target that passes its save cannot be affected this round.

Growth: At 5th level, the Golem grows to Large size, as does its slam attack and Hunter's Weapon

Continued Adaptation: At 5th level, the Golem chooses one ability from the following:

Life-Leeching strike: The Golem's attacks now drain the life from its foes. Once per day per 5HD, when the Golem hits a target with an attack, it may choose to inflict 1d4 negative levels as well. These negative levels fade after 24 hours and may not result in permanent level loss.
Linked Weapon: The Golem becomes more attuned to its Hunter's Weapon, which gains a +1 enhancement bonus for every 4 HD it have, as though affected by a permanent Greater Magic Weapon with a CL equal to its HD. This enhancement bonus does not count towards the total enhancement bonus of its weapon when determining the cost to add enhancements to it.
Glamour of Brass: The Brass Golem can intensify the reflections on its own body, or place them upon another creature. It gains Shield of Faith as an SLA 1/day per 3 HD, and Blur as an SLA 1/day per 4 HD, with a CL equal to its HD.


Know Thy Enemy: At 6th level, the Brass Golem's attacks against its hunted target improve. If a hunted target fails its save when hit by a Brass Golem's attack, it is staggered and sickened for one round, and is sickened even if it succeeds on the save.

Maze: At 6th level, the Golem gains the ability to cast Maze as a SLA once/5 HD/day. Unlike normal Maze, this SLA allows a Will save (DC = 10+1/2HD+Wis modifier), and the target gets a +2 bonus on the save. The Golem cannot currently enter the maze to track its target, but will be able to at 8th level.


Juggernaught Charge: At 7th level, the Golem is an expert at charging, using the weight of its metal body to power into its attack. To use this, make a charge attack. This attack deals damage as though it were one size larger, in addition to the standard benefits of a charge.

Improved Adaptation: At 7th level, the Golem continue to develop its abilities. Choose one of the following special abilities, or two from the Adaptation and Continued Adaptation abilities:
Destructive Build: The Golem refocuses some of the energy powering it to its limbs, refining the brass muscles there. Add an additional 0.5x the Golem's strength modifier to damage with all melee weapons and composite bows.
Molten Core: The Golem's body is powered from inside by a core of molten metal. Increase its speed by 10ft. In addition, deal 1d6 extra fire damage with its slam and Hunter’s Weapon, and an additional 1d6 fire damage for every 4 HD.
Perfect Edge: The Golem's brass can become razor sharp at a moment's notice, making it especially deadly at the moment it attacks. The critical multiplier of the Golem's slam and Hunter's Weapon increases by one (e.g. x3 becomes x4), and its critical threat range increases by one (e.g. 20 becomes 19-20). This stacks with and applies before Keen, Improved Critical, and other similar effects.

Play Theseus (Su): At 8th level, the Golem can now travel between its Maze and its current location as a move action a number of times per day equal to half its HD, although the Maze must still first be conjured with the SLA. This allows it to hunt any prey sent there. It gains an insight bonus to Survival checks made to track opponents in its Maze equal to its HD.

Sheer Force: At 8th level, the Brass Golem is a terrifying beast, capable of simply powering through its opponents by force of weight. Its slam and Hunter’s Weapon count as its alignment and Adamantium for the purposes of overcoming damage reduction. A True Neutral player may choose an alignment to have his attacks count as, and other neutral golems may choose one alignment instead of neutral to apply.

Re-forged Purpose:At 9th level, the Golem begins to recover some of the magic that first gave it purpose to live, and to focus this against its chosen enemies.
The Golem gains the Favoured Enemy ability (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/ranger.htm#favoredEnemy), as a Ranger (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/ranger.htm), and this qualifies him for any prestige classes or feats that require Favoured Enemy. Every 2nd HD after 9 (11, 13 etc.), the Golem gains a new Favoured Enemy and can increase one of its Favoured Enemy bonuses (including the Enemy just selected, if so desired), by 2.

Labyrinthine Home: At 10th level, the Golem may Plane Shift into its labyrinth, bring a number of medium-sized creatures equal to its HD (each size increase doubles the number of creatures a character counts as), with each use of its Play Theseus ability. It may also now bring objects (including food, furniture etc.) with it to decorate its labyrinth and make it more homely. The Maze is now a permanent extra-dimensional space, rather than a conjuration, much like the space inside a Rope Trick. There are no negative effects for bringing other extra-dimensional spaces inside the Maze.
In addition, targets of the Golem's Maze SLA no longer gain a +2 bonus to the save. At 14 HD, Maze no longer allows a save.

Instrument of Destruction: If the Golem's hunted target fails its save against the Golem's melee attack, it is stunned for one round. It is sickened and staggered even if it succeeds on the save.
At 16 HD, a hunted target that fails its save is killed outright. The Golem may only use this ability once per day per 6 HD, and chooses when to do so - any other failed saves simply result in the hunted target being stunned. This is a death effect. It is still sickened and staggered if it succeeds on the save.



Comments

The tricky bit with this one was Maze. It's its signature ability, but it's also a very powerful spell. Maybe there should also be a duration reduction in addition to allowing a save? Like 2 rounds/HD or something?
Reforged Purpose is intentionally more numerous than Favoured Enemy, as Favoured Enemy is often hard to use regularly, which kinda sucks.



Changelog

Fixed table, gave a bonus to Bluff with Misleading, allowed more flexibility with Improved Evolution, changed Perfect Edge. Changed Resilience. Reforged Purpose is now Favoured Enemy, but it gets it a fair few times, to make it useful.
Removed electricity vulnerability, fixed some descriptions, changed Evolution to Adaptation. Added /day to Misleading.
Added flavour text to abilities.
Clarified various abilities - Play Theseus, Hunter's Weapon, Perfect Edge.
Added Built for the Hunt, Know Thy Enemy and Instrument of Destruction.
These changes (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10665695&postcount=326) and added Continued Adaptation.

NineThePuma
2011-03-19, 05:01 PM
NEVER repost. Just find it linked in the first post.

Hyudra
2011-03-19, 05:09 PM
The Brass Golem, for whatever reason, is not linked on the first page. I think he meant 6-7 threads back? I don't remember seeing it come up.

Cogidubnus
2011-03-19, 05:11 PM
NEVER repost. Just find it linked in the first post.

It's miles back lost somewhere in the third thread and hasn't been linked as unfinished by anyone on here. I used the word doc version.

NineThePuma
2011-03-19, 05:33 PM
You said 6-7 pages. So I assumed in this thread, but if it's THREADS, it's understandable.

Cogidubnus
2011-03-19, 05:41 PM
You said 6-7 pages. So I assumed in this thread, but if it's THREADS, it's understandable.

That was an ANCIENT line from the original post. Too much copy-pasta.

Zemro
2011-03-19, 07:00 PM
So, after making the changes Hyudra commented on in the last review of the Justice Archon, I noticed that the base creature has spell resistance, while the class does not.

While I do want to include it, I don't think I should just add it as it would upset the balance that I've already had to work a bit to improve.

Instead, what to you folks think would be an acceptable portion of the class (read shared fate, as it seems to have the most overlap so reducing the ability for the adition of spell resistance is likely to have the least overall effect) to decrease in order to allow for spell resistance. I would be adding it into the Archon's Wards ability gained at third level.

EDIT: Quick Comment on the Brass Golem in order to fit formatting conventions:
Remove the text above the creatures name, while it may make sense for a post it'll eventually detract from the entry as things get worked on.
Increase the size of the monster's name to 4
Include the source of the monster (MMII, Pg 116)
Remove the text after the comments spoiler completely instead of striking it out, similar reasons as the removal of the text at the beginning of the post.

Hyudra
2011-03-19, 07:51 PM
Brass Golem (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10588318&postcount=1361)

First off, clean up the post of anything not relevant specifically to the monster class. That means the 'feel free to help me improve it', 'I'm done changes', 'this is what I get for too much copy pasta', etc.
Similarly, quote is out of place, especially being from non-fantasy material.
Picture isn't great. It's small, and it's photorealistic where 98% of the ones in this thread aren't. What I found with 30 seconds of searching: http://i54.tinypic.com/23rk9w9.jpg - You could probably find better, too.
Strongly recommend using the template found on the FAQ/guidelines page for your creature. It doesn't adhere to convention and it's hard to read.
Don't separate abilities by level - at the very least, scrap it before you're done the monster.
When you describe an ability, detail when it's gained. Like, "At third level, the Brass Golem gains the ability to ____"
Languages?
We try to avoid giving creatures explicit vulnerabilities. Electricity vulnerability should at least be paired with some notable benefit.
Evolution as an ability name is ill fit. That's... not what evolution means. Rename?
You change from "The Brass Golem's..." to "Your..." and back again throughout. Pick one and be consistent.
Flavor text for the evolution abilities would be good.
Misleading: You gain Hypnotic Pattern... 1/HD? Per day? Per hour? Per round?
Solid Brass: That's... a lot of armor bonus. So at 6HD, with a +8 Str mod, you've got... +12 AC from racial benefits. Couple that with Dex mod and you're looking at 24 to 25 AC. While that may not seem that extreme (enemies needing perhaps a 12 or higher to hit, give or take depending on gear & BAB), you can bump it further with stuff like protection from evil, bracers of armor, etc.
I have to ask: Why a headbutt attack? Not every brass golem is styled after the Minotaur. Make it a slam?

And gotta stop for now. Leaving it at that.

Makiru
2011-03-20, 05:20 AM
I changed the tables to read better (aka: got rid of most of the "disregard this number" entries) and added a new ability to boost fast healing and DR.

Cogidubnus
2011-03-20, 11:28 AM
Bolded my replies.


Brass Golem (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10588318&postcount=1361)

First off, clean up the post of anything not relevant specifically to the monster class. That means the 'feel free to help me improve it', 'I'm done changes', 'this is what I get for too much copy pasta', etc.
Done
Similarly, quote is out of place, especially being from non-fantasy material.
Removed.
Picture isn't great. It's small, and it's photorealistic where 98% of the ones in this thread aren't. What I found with 30 seconds of searching: http://i54.tinypic.com/23rk9w9.jpg - You could probably find better, too.
Best I could find, most of the brass golem pictures I could see where minis.
Strongly recommend using the template found on the FAQ/guidelines page for your creature. It doesn't adhere to convention and it's hard to read.
Will do this later, don't have time right now.
Don't separate abilities by level - at the very least, scrap it before you're done the monster.
Fixed.
When you describe an ability, detail when it's gained. Like, "At third level, the Brass Golem gains the ability to ____"
Done.
Languages?
Common, couldn't think why it would have bonus languages.
We try to avoid giving creatures explicit vulnerabilities. Electricity vulnerability should at least be paired with some notable benefit.
Removed it for now, though I copied it from the Iron Golem to begin with.
Evolution as an ability name is ill fit. That's... not what evolution means. Rename?
It's now adaptation.
You change from "The Brass Golem's..." to "Your..." and back again throughout. Pick one and be consistent.
Did my best to change them all, tell me if I missed any.
Flavor text for the evolution abilities would be good.
Will get round to soon.
Misleading: You gain Hypnotic Pattern... 1/HD? Per day? Per hour? Per round?
/day, added in.
Solid Brass: That's... a lot of armor bonus. So at 6HD, with a +8 Str mod, you've got... +12 AC from racial benefits. Couple that with Dex mod and you're looking at 24 to 25 AC. While that may not seem that extreme (enemies needing perhaps a 12 or higher to hit, give or take depending on gear & BAB), you can bump it further with stuff like protection from evil, bracers of armor, etc.
It's an armour bonus - it doesn't stack with Bracers of Armour or Mage Armour. It's simply to replace normal armour, which doesn't make sense for a metal golem. It's not as tough as the Iron Golem's similar ability.
I have to ask: Why a headbutt attack? Not every brass golem is styled after the Minotaur. Make it a slam?
Changed to a slam attack for now, but in that case I need a suggestion fro how to replace Goring Charge.

Bloody Initiate
2011-03-20, 02:01 PM
On bonus feats: I think they are OK if they are always the last option among a host of unique and attractive abilities. Similar to how the PHB rogue has special abilities it can gain, but if it chooses to it can just gain a bonus feat instead of a special ability.

I agree that JUST "Bonus feat" is lazy and doesn't fit a racial class that well, but it's a FACT that pretty much every class but fighter is feat-starved and so pretty much every CHARACTER is feat-starved. Putting in that back door so players can choose to customize their monster and enhance their build feels good to me, as long as you give them other options and try to make those options attractive. In effect, you give them the option of gaining a feat so that you challenge yourself to offer them something better.

In the context of the Brass Golem for example, you might build a class that offers a very strong feature coupled with a vulnerability. The vulnerability allows you to make the feature particularly strong, so the feature is attractive, but maybe the player cannot reconcile that vulnerability with their preferred character, so they have the option of just grabbing a feat instead. This way "Play what you enjoy/want to play" is an option at every step, even if what you want to play is a little weaker crunch-wise.

Anyway, I just wanted to speak on the matter. Bonus feats are not pure "bad" from a perspective of creativity/original homebrew, but JUST bonus feats IS lazy and short in the creativity department.

Saidoro
2011-03-20, 02:07 PM
Razor Boar
March 20
Separated Resilience into 3 abilities.
Added mounting to Wrench


Chuul
March 20
Secondary traits now dazes, not stuns.

Changes made. Announcing vague long term plans to do Kraken.

Hyudra
2011-03-20, 02:13 PM
I'd pondered doing Kraken myself, but lacked inspiration as far as making it viable in campaigns on land, if such is even desirable/doable. It's also a very back-loaded creature, with SLAs and the like that kind of emphasize higher level play (control weather, control winds). That's a lot of levels to fill.

Any particular ideas on how you'd go about it?

Bloody Initiate
2011-03-20, 02:41 PM
Well it has NINE natural weapons, EIGHT of which are in sets, so parsing that out would be a big part of the lower levels for me if I did it. 9 attacks = awesome.

Saidoro
2011-03-20, 02:46 PM
Well, it's more intended for campaigns where most action will take place within a couple miles of ocean, not for land based campaigns. That being said, I will give it some stuff, for starters it'll be able to hold it's breath at least a minute/HD to give it some near land accessibility, and it'll have at least the speeds of an Octo (http://www.dnd-wiki.org/wiki/SRD:Octopus)-Squid (http://www.dnd-wiki.org/wiki/SRD:Squid) by the time it's done growing instead of that ridiculous 20 ft. A few levels in it'll get something called "Sea Lord's Chariot" (Or something similar) letting it call up a constantly cresting wave to ride around in as long as it's within a few miles of shore. It'll have a number of melee battlefield control powers, stuff like the purple worm's flexible. And I could probably also give it limited versions of some of its more powerful spells, maybe a version of control weather with a shorter duration and longer effect delay or a version of control winds with caps on what sort of wind it can make.

Yeah, tentacles are definitely going to be staggered

Bloody Initiate
2011-03-20, 03:26 PM
One option you could explore, and it would require the approval of the council because it would be two monsters in one class, is to merge the Kraken and the Crawling Apocalypse (Sandstorm) and make it a choice players make at the first level. Where the abilities of the creatures are equal, they could just be a feature of the class gained at the same levels, and where they are different they would be the product of the players taking a different path.

I only mention it because the idea of a Kraken doing anything on land is a little weird, but the idea of land v. water build being a choice makes a lot of sense in my head. Of course it breaks a lot of rules too, so like I said it would require special approval, and it may be an idea that only ever made sense in my head.

Saidoro
2011-03-20, 07:12 PM
I don't have sandstorm, so I can't really judge how well the abilities of the two creatures compare, nor would I be able to make stats for the crawling apocalypse even if I could. That being said, if they're fairly comparable and similarly flavored and I get approval from the council, I'd be willing to build the kraken half of the class and work with someone else to put together the apocalypse half.
I've scrapped the kraken's base land speed and instead implemented something a bit more flavorful. In short, it'll be able to use its tentacle attacks to move 5 ft instead of attacking in a full attack if it wants to.

In unrelated news, I just realized that squidopus sounds better than octo-squid. Live and learn, I guess.

Scio
2011-03-20, 08:43 PM
Hey, I just realized that the Troll class is missing Craft and Profession from it's skill list. I thought everything was supposed to have those two skills.

Hyudra
2011-03-20, 09:20 PM
Hey, I just realized that the Troll class is missing Craft and Profession from it's skill list. I thought everything was supposed to have those two skills.

Not quite. If you think about it, those skills reflect the kind of skills one picks up living in a civilized society. Profession (Farmer), for example, reflects your background as a farmer, your ability to grow crops and so on. It doesn't fit for a Griffon, for example, to be able to pick up those general day-to-day skills.

Scio
2011-03-20, 10:11 PM
While it wouldn't work for Griffins an such, I don't see why my Troll can't take Profession (Lawyer). Yes, I have in fact statted up a Troll lawyer PC:smalltongue:.

Benly
2011-03-20, 10:21 PM
It seems like they should be standard for any creature which has a society. Even a tribal society needs Craft (potter) and Profession (herdsman). By that standard trolls would generally qualify.

Makiru
2011-03-21, 05:56 AM
Except it really depends on the fluff for the creature in question. Trolls aren't social creatures. Their regeneration gives them a high metabolism, so too many trolls would depopulate an area of food literally within days. Troll societies just don't work and they know it, which is why they only get together to mate.

In this case, the creature in question wouldn't really get a profession until they "grew up" (finished the class) and entered another society, i.e: gained levels in a non-monster class.

Again, it just depends on the fluff of the creature whether or not certain skills make sense. Azers, for example, would get Craft and Profession, since they live in an industrialized society and would have that set of talents. A bulette, on the other hand, is a near-mindless predator that wouldn't make sense to have those skills and couldn't really use them with its anatomy in the first place.

Hyudra
2011-03-21, 09:00 AM
In any event, Benly's interpretation makes a great deal of sense. I agree with Makiru that Trolls probably don't have a society. I do think that, as I go back through some of the old monsters, I will be giving more consideration to Profession and Craft.

Cogidubnus
2011-03-21, 12:47 PM
Brass Golem (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=10588318#post10588318) has now had all the changes made to it, including all formatting changes.

Benly
2011-03-21, 01:41 PM
Except it really depends on the fluff for the creature in question. Trolls aren't social creatures. Their regeneration gives them a high metabolism, so too many trolls would depopulate an area of food literally within days. Troll societies just don't work and they know it, which is why they only get together to mate.

That's an interesting interpretation, but not consistent with all portrayals of D&D trolls. I may be biased because I'm currently DMing an adapted 2E module which includes a tribe of trolls and I recall trolls being tribal in other older modules.

Gorgondantess
2011-03-21, 03:10 PM
We try to avoid giving creatures explicit vulnerabilities. Electricity vulnerability should at least be paired with some notable benefit.
It does pair with an explicit benefit. The brass golem is not only immune to but healed by fire damage. Every golem is likewise vulnerable to one specific energy type and healed by another. This was a means to make healing them... less stupidly hard.
I know the golems quite well, having made the format they all follow today.

Solid Brass: That's... a lot of armor bonus. So at 6HD, with a +8 Str mod, you've got... +12 AC from racial benefits. Couple that with Dex mod and you're looking at 24 to 25 AC. While that may not seem that extreme (enemies needing perhaps a 12 or higher to hit, give or take depending on gear & BAB), you can bump it further with stuff like protection from evil, bracers of armor, etc.
It should note that the brass golem cannot wear armor, and thus this is a replacement thereof.

Beyond that, I'll note that I already have gone over the brass golem (many and many a year ago) and for the most part I consider it well balanced... though of course Hyudra is more of a stickler for format than I was (many and many a year ago:smalltongue:).
Nevertheless, I'll review it all the same. Good to have you back, Cog.

On the subject of craft/profession: Frankly I don't care much. Both are nigh useless skills that add little but flavor to the character. If you want to give trolls craft/profession, I suppose it'd make sense for the odd cultured troll. If not, whatever. Again, they're both pretty much just flavor.

Cogidubnus
2011-03-21, 03:15 PM
Ed: It should state it can't wear armour, but as it gives an armour bonus, it's not like it actually stacks with armour. Nevertheless, I'll edit that in. It does state:
This armour may be enchanted, but more armour may not be worn over the top.

I'll also edit back in electricity vulnerability, since you've reminded me of the benefit it's paired with and so it continues to fit the format.

And it's good to be back. I enjoy homebrewing, and this thread is one of the few guaranteed ways of getting solid feedback.

Mystic Muse
2011-03-22, 01:26 AM
Okay, I have everything except a capstone done for a non casting version of the Silver dragon. Should I post it and get your guy's help on the capstone or wait until I actually have a capstone to post it?

Makiru
2011-03-22, 02:01 AM
That's an interesting interpretation, but not consistent with all portrayals of D&D trolls. I may be biased because I'm currently DMing an adapted 2E module which includes a tribe of trolls and I recall trolls being tribal in other older modules.

I was mostly using the information I remembered from the "Practical Guide to Monsters" that got put out near the end of 3.5. Nice book for fluff with some good illustration, and it was only $10 if I remember right.

Anyway, I am still waiting for an experienced critique of the garngrath, when anybody can get around to it.

Bloody Initiate
2011-03-22, 06:46 AM
Okay, I have everything except a capstone done for a non casting version of the Silver dragon. Should I post it and get your guy's help on the capstone or wait until I actually have a capstone to post it?

Dunno if it applies but I just thought of a cool ability dragons could have:

Due to the abundance of natural attacks they get, a non-magical dragon is typically relying on its breath weapon, flight, and natural attacks plus any additional Su/Ex abilities they might possess.

So combine them all for fun:

Juggle (Ex): Being naturally built for flight and gifted with a multiple dangerous body parts, the dragon has learned to fly and attack one target at the same time to great effect.

To use this ability the dragon must have the Improved Grab extraordinary ability or the Improved Grapple feat or some equivalent of one or the other. The dragon designates an enemy to target with this ability, the target must be light enough for the dragon to carry upward in flight.

As a full round action the dragon moves half its speed and makes a bite attack against the designated opponent. If successful the dragon tosses the opponent in the air and flies upward behind/with his prey, attacking repeatedly and carrying his foe ever upward with each attack. The dragon may make a full attack against the opponent as they both move higher into the air with the remaining half of the dragon's speed in a direction of the dragon's choice. The dragon may use his breath weapon at any point during this full attack if he is capable of using his breath weapon in this round. It does not require a standard action as usual and is simply part of the dragon's full attack (Since it requires no attack roll, it can happen at any time the dragon chooses in the course of his turn).

If the dragon chooses to end his full attack against the opponent with a crush or wing attack he can force his opponent down to the ground with such force that the enemy takes full falling damage even if affected by a spell like feather fall or fly. If this causes the opponent to leave the dragon's threatened square the opponent provokes an attack of opportunity from the dragon as usual. If the dragon chooses to initiate grapple it this attack obvious the opponent does not fall.

The dragon may also choose not to end his assault, and in doing so must not use a wing or crush attack during his full attack. This implies the dragon is attempting to continue his juggle, which is very difficult. The opponent may make an opposed grapple, escape artist, or tumble check vs. the dragon's grapple check. This is not a check to oppose or resist grapple, but rather a test of the dragon's aerial ability. If the dragon wins and his opponent doesn't manage to move away during its turn, the dragon may continue the juggle at the start of its next turn, moving both opponents in a direction of the dragon's choice at half the dragon's movement speed. This is another full-round action for the dragon who can make a full attack as above.

If the dragon makes a successful critical hit against his designated opponent at any point during a juggle then the opponent is stunned and dazed for 1 round.


I wouldn't be surprised if someone else had written something similar already, I haven't read all the monster classes but "juggling" is a popular tactic straight out of most fighting games so I'm sure someone has had the idea before. I just wasn't sure if they'd used it.

I attempted to make it a powerful attack routine that used grapple without all the rolls, and if I wrote it right it ignores Freedom of Movement (Which I think is largely BS considering the level at which it is gained, so all grapple-centric abilities I create ignore it).

Hyudra
2011-03-22, 03:06 PM
Will be doing a batch critique of the following (monsters posted/updated since 3-15-2011). Vivisector
Razor Boar
Ettercap
Aboleth
Chuul
Phantom
Justice Archon
Coure Eladrin
Garngrath
Brass Golem

I've marked the following monsters as having my vote, as it were, needing full approval of another council member to go on the main list: Jovoc
Gargoyle
Vivisector
Razor Boar
Phase Wasp
Violet Fungus
Drow

The following monsters have been added to the unfinished monster list: Garngrath
Brass Golem

The following monsters have been moved to the abandoned list: Hellfire Wyrm
Briarvex
Black Dragon
Half-Golem

Frog Dragon
2011-03-22, 03:17 PM
I realize how I might have given that image. It's not so much abandoned as me being simply stumped with it. At this point, I have laid out the general parts of it, but the paths are still mostly unfinished. Should I just post the black dragon as it is now anyway?

Edit: Read the description in the abandoned section. Don't mind me...

Hyudra
2011-03-22, 03:42 PM
I think, at present, there's two or three people who're doing or planning dragons for the thread, each making their individual attempts to rework the dragons so the dragons work and have flavor. All such individuals are reporting that they're kind of stuck on the last leg of their respective dragon classes.

In any event, I moved the Hellfire Wyrm and the Black Dragon to the abandoned list because they hadn't been updated or critiqued for more than a month (in part due to the discussion/reworking of dragons) and because I thought their respective creators might wish to make fresh posts for their revised dragon projects, assuming they're different enough from the previous to warrant such.

I do encourage people to discuss their work on the thread & elsewhere. I discourage, conversely, posting anything that's unfinished. I remain open to discussing such points or helping with ideas on AIM as well (I'm on pretty much 24/7, but don't be offended if I don't reply right away, as I work from home & may be on a business call or I may have forgotten to set myself as afk/busy.)

A few points on the dragon, that came up as I discussed the matter with Kyuubi, reworded here.

Dragons are 20 level classes. It's important to stress what that means.

Despite what some might think, you're a hero on par with Aragorn, Conan, Gandalf and the like at level 5. A level 5 hero can do everything those guys did, and face down threats about on par with what they did. A level 5 NPC can be a world renowned blacksmith that makes the finest quality weapons you'd find anywhere, on par with Hattori Hanzo. At level 5 you can be a scholar on par with Einstein.

So what does it mean, then, to be level 20? It means you're shoulder to shoulder with lesser gods. You need to have abilities that both reflect this and keep you competitive with such. Balancewise, you've got a really tricky proposition before you, as game balance typically goes out the window at 15th level, you really begin to see the gaps between various tiers of character, and mechanics can get broken without necessarily even trying to make it so (rather, it requires express effort to keep everything in line). Past 15th level, AC ceases to matter (to hit bonuses accrue faster than AC does), hitpoints have scaled so much faster than damage that attack routines need to be borderline ridiculous to even make a difference in battle, and the game can devolve into a form of rocket tag... hit the enemy first and obliterate them, or they're going to get a chance to obliterate you. Rinse, repeat.

The trick with Dragons, as I pointed out to Kyuubi, is that they're hard to design abilities for, which keep them at a suitable power level. They don't really have a specific role beyond 'overpower the enemy', which means there's no defined type of ability one can provide to them beyond 'hit them more/harder' and you're in a situation where you've got to make them fittingly overpowering without making them overpowered. In making them a class that can do this and stay competitive at higher level, you're facing the prospect of a borderline overpowered creature at low-mid levels (full attacking for 80+ damage at a level when your typical initiator class is perhaps doing half that). If you tone down the overpowering nature, you've still got to establish a role as a PC and sell the draconic "you're a majestic creature that makes people fall to their knees in fear and awe" flavor.
Dragons are complicated and comprehensive, they're well established in lore, so by tackling a dragon as a monster class, you've got to fit your dragon with dozens of such dragons in modules, sourcebooks, magazines and novels. They're 20 levels long, so there's a lot of work, and that's all compounded by the problems I went over, above. I'm not a bad homebrewer, and yet I confess dragons are too much for me. I don't envy anyone who decides to do one for themselves. They're a nightmare to design.

Frog Dragon
2011-03-22, 03:47 PM
You know, that post was far more useful to me than one would expect. Two more abilities, coming up! :smallbiggrin:

Mystic Muse
2011-03-22, 04:22 PM
Another problem with dragons is keeping the flavor of near omnipotent majestic creatures. When everything you'll be fighting can kill you just as quickly as you kill them you cease to be intimidating and become the norm.

Hyudra
2011-03-22, 04:24 PM
You know, that post was far more useful to me than one would expect. Two more abilities, coming up! :smallbiggrin:

I'm not offended. Not at all.

TheGeckoKing
2011-03-22, 05:14 PM
Vivisector got a vote! Yay!
Aboleth.........it's getting there, it its own slimy way.
Pandorym however, is a more pressing matter. I know Hyudra has a no-psionics thing going on because of lack of knowledge, buuuuuut.......i'm going to poke people with sticks and request a look-over (even a very brief one will make me a happy lizard-lich) from anyone willing, simply because I can't think of anything else to do for now, other than changing a few abilities/givine others the switcheroo, which I have done.

Gorgondantess
2011-03-22, 07:16 PM
Jovoc:
Bloodclaws: is that with each claw attack or one claw attack? If the former, for how long?
State the fortitude save DC. Also, 50 hp is not worth a simple save or suck- in fact, all of the hp costs described here are pretty damn steep.
Retributive aura: get leadership for a cohort that can attack many, many times per round and will always deal 1 damage with each attack, then have it hitting you a bunch of times every round.

Gargoyle:
Allow for multiclassing with sudden strike, so that doing something like multiclassing to rogue would work, and with the strength/dexterity penalty.
Scale filthy talons a bit, eh.

choose the Good or Lawful suntypes
Spellcheck, yo.
Deluge waterspout: It should do some damage before level 14. Otherwise, it's pretty useless until then- with a cone, they'll likely be moving only something like 10-15 feet tops, and with a line they'll always be moving just 5 feet. And that's it.
Petrification: currently doesn't do anything until 14 HD.
Diving charge: Ummm... so go 200-240 feet up and do an additional 20d6 damage. At 6 HD.:smalleek:
This also makes me realize that you don't have a listed base move speed.
Statuesque perfection: does this include improved chiseled armaments?

Vivisector: I'm a tad worried about a level 1 vivisector. You get 18 strength, that's 2 attacks at a total average of 17 damage. The only thing comparable would be... a human fighter with a flaw to get TWF, oversized TWF, 2 longswords and weapon focus in each... and then he's still doing an average of 2 less damage (from 1/2 str mod instead of full str mod on the offhand). It's not exactly game breaking, but it is a little off. Why not start at 1d6 and then scale up from there?
Vivisection... is a little boring, really, for an ability that involves extracting a still living creature's organs. Also, while it starts out OK, it quickly becomes a kindof weak ability.
Scalpel claws: the addenda at the end is now irrelevant.
Tough Shell: The natural armor bonus is weird. Just... tie it to Con and put it on the 1st level body ability.
Appendix... um... whuh?
The DR is a little lame. 1/2 HD wouldn't be overdoing it. In fact, equal to HD wouldn't be overdoing it, considering the low duration.
Blood: I think it would be better if it could just use this one once. Kindof spammable.
Beyond that, it looks pretty balanced... but like vivisection, I think you could do a lot more with it. This thing, by all rights, should be really, really nasty, and I don't think it really lives up to its full potential. For example, I'd personally switch out the poison for a paralytic venom that leaves enemies stable and easy to vivisect- and that's really just off the top of my head. Oh, and a fear effect when vivisecting- that too.
Beyond that, not much of it scales well. Why can't my 15 HD vivisector just snatch out someone's still beating heart and gobble it up, killing them and freaking their friends right the **** out?

Razor Boar

successful dc 5 heal check if the boar is willing.
DC should be capitalized. Consider submitting it to Psyborg, our dear homonculus, for stuff like that in general.
Other than that, on wrench... what happens when a colossal red dragon bites the boar and gets stuck? Or any other colossal sized creature. Can it really take NO actions other than trying to get free? What if the boar wants to move?
Other than that, I think it looks good, but wrench certainly could use some polishing.
Phase Wasp
Still need to respond to my critiques. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10506149&postcount=1199)
Violet Fungus

To avoid starvation/thirst (the Fungus only takes 1d6 nonlethal damage for every time it fails its save
What save?

The cloud linger
You need an S somewhere there.

Once a day, the Violet Fungus can release a cloud of spores out to 5ft for every HD it has Burst? Might want to specify.
Fatiguing is a weak effect at later levels. Might want to upgrade to exhaustion at something like 12 HD. Also, state whether it applies on a failed save. If so, make exhaustion even earlier.
Improved Breakdown, under consuming tentacles: no such ability.
Improved Consumption: adding to the duration is kindof pointless, as it takes as much time to consume the material as it would add to the duration.

Drow: Still need to fix up mage caste, then it'll be good.

Gorgondantess
2011-03-22, 08:27 PM
Half-Dragon
http://i56.tinypic.com/25kmmqd.jpg
A Half-Purple Dragon Minotaur.

Base Half-Dragon

Prerequisites:
Any creature type but undead or construct. Dragons are extremely prolific creatures, but even they can't mate with the inanimate.

One True Dragon parent

or

Language: Draconic
and
Knowledge: Arcane 4 ranks
and
Must make peaceful contact with a True Dragon of at least Young Adult age, and get the dragon to agree to provide a vial of its blood and participate in a 6 hour long ritual. Most Dragons will not do so easily, though, and will usually either demand payment or a service to deem the recipient worthy.



HD: D10
{table=head]Level|Bab|Fort|Ref|Will|
Special

1|
+0|
+2|
+0|
+2|Half-Dragon Body, Breath Weapon Heritage, Wings, Draconic Attributes +1
[/table]

Skills Points: 4+Intelligence modifier per level.
Class skills: Appraise, Intimidate, Knowledge (Arcane), Listen, Spellcraft, and Spot.

Proficiencies: The Half-Dragon gains proficiency with its own natural weapons.

Half-Dragon Body:Unlike other monster classes, the Half Dragon doesn't lose his racial ability modifiers, but he does gain Dragon traits, which includes Darkvision out to 60' and immunity to Sleep & Paralysis effects. The Half-Dragon also gains a bite attack and 2 claws as secondary and primary natural weapons, respectively, with the bite starting at 1d6+1/2 Str and the claws at 1d4+Str damage for a medium creature. Those who already possess a claw and/or bite attack keep their normal natural weapons, and their claw and/or bite damage increases as if they had increased in size by one step.
Finally, the Half-Dragon gains a bonus to natural armor equal to half its Constitution modifier.

Breath Weapon Heritage: At 1st level, the Half-Dragon chooses its draconic heritage. Rather than choosing a specific dragon type (though it may certainly do so if it chooses), the Half-Dragon has leeway in this matter.
It gains a breath weapon usable once every 1d4+1 rounds that deals 1d10/2 HD damage of either acid, cold, electricity, fire or sonic damage. Those who choose sonic instead deal 1d8/2 HD damage. Alternate energy types, such as force, hellfire, etc. may be chosen, and they each deal 1d10/3 HD damage. Regardless, they gain a resistance to the energy type they chose equal to their HD. The Half-Dragon can choose either a line or cone breath weapon: the cone has a range of 15' plus 5'/2 HD, and the line has a range of 30' plus 5'/HD.
Like all breath weapons, those within the area of the half dragon's breath weapon may make a Reflex save DC (10+1/2 HD+Con mod) for half damage.
Finally, the Half-Dragon may add two skills of its choice to its list of class skills in this and every class to represent its draconic heritage: for example, a half bronze dragon might choose survival and swim, while a half shadow dragon might choose hide and move silently.

Wings:While the Half-Dragon gains wings, they are not very adept at lifting its clumsy hybrid body. Initially it merely gains a bonus to jump checks equal to its HD and halves all falling damage. By 5 HD, the Half-Dragon is able to fully utilize its wings, gaining a fly speed equal to its land speed with Poor maneuverability. This increases to twice its land speed by 8 HD and Average maneuverability by 12 HD.

Draconic Attributes: The Half-Dragon gains +1 to either Strength or Constitution and +1 to any mental attribute of choice, which is hereafter referred to as the Mental Draconic Attribute.



Draconic Paths:
For its 2nd level, the Half-Dragon ceases to be a true-dragon-but-lesser, and gains abilities that allow its draconic talents to meld and work with its humanoid skills. Each draconic path has a different prerequisite above and beyond those of the base Half-Dragon. Multiple draconic paths can be taken, though a Half-Dragon can never take the same draconic path twice.

Sorcerous:

Prerequisites:
Knowledge: Arcane or Religion 5 ranks, Spellcraft 5 ranks
At least 1 class level in any spontaneous spellcasting class.
Half-Dragon body class ability.

HD: D8
{table=head]Level|Bab|Fort|Ref|Will|
Special|
Spellcasting

1|
+0|
+2|
+0|
+2|Breath Channeling, Form of the Dragon, Draconic Attributes +2|+1 level of Spellcasting Class
[/table]

Skills Points: 4+Intelligence modifier per level.
Class skills: Appraise, Concentration, Intimidate, Knowledge (All skills, taken individually), Spellcraft, and Spot.

Proficiencies: The Spellcasting Half-Dragon gains no new proficiencies.

Breath Channeling: At 2nd level, the Half-Dragon becomes able to channel its magic through its breath weapon in two ways. In both applications, this ability is activated as a full round action and counts as casting a spell for the purposes of attacks of opportunity, spell interruption, etc.
Breath Weapon Admixture: With this ability, the Half-Dragon casts a spell and charges it with the energies of its breath weapon. Those who are affected by the spell must also make a Reflex save equal to the Reflex save of the Half-Dragon's breath weapon or take damage as if struck by the breath weapon (though they do not get a second save against this effect.) Using this ability maximizes the cooldown time for the breath weapon (so 5 rounds).
Spell Breath: This ability allows the Half-Dragon to "breathe out" a spell in place of its breath weapon. The ability only works with spells that have a target other than personal, or area of effect spells. Those spells that require an attack roll instead allow a Reflex save equal to that of the breath weapon to negate the effect: otherwise, all within the breath weapon's area are affected as if the spell was cast on them. This consumes 2 uses of the spell in question, and minimizes the cooldown time for the breath weapon (so 2 rounds). Note that using this ability does not deal breath weapon damage.

Form of the Dragon: At 2nd level the Half-Dragon may, as a free action, expend one spell slot in order to fuel its draconic blood, gaining a stronger connection to its draconic heritage. These abilities each last a number of rounds equal to the modifier of the mental ability score chosen under draconic attributes, and increase in power based on the spell level burned.

Dragon Skin: Gains DR/Magic equal to twice the the spell level burned, and SR 11+ twice the spell level burned.
This increases to DR/Epic at 20 HD.
Dragon Eyes: Gains blindsense out to a distance based on the spell level burned. With 6th level spells it upgrades to blindsight, and with 9th level spells it allows the Half-Dragon to even see enemies normally unaffected by blindsight, such as those with the darkstalker feat or those with superior invisibility.
{table]Spell level|Range
1|10'
2|25'
3|50'
4|75'
5|150'
6|200'
7|400'
8|750'
9|1000'[/table]
Dragon Presence: The Half-Dragon gains the Frightful Presence ability. It affects enemies with a range of 20' times the spell level burned and has a Will save DC (10+Spell level burned+Cha mod). Those who fail and have HD less than the spell level burned are panicked; those who have HD less than twice the spell level burned are shaken. Creatures with HD equal to or greater than twice the spell level burned are not effected.
Dragon Sinews: Gains a Draconic bonus to Strength & Natural Armor equal to the spell level burned.
Dragon Arsenal: The Half-Dragon's natural attacks are enhanced based on the table below. These additions are cumulative and stack.
{table]Spell level|Bonus
1|Magic
2|1 Wing
3|1 Wing
4|Damage
5|Tail Sweep
6|Material
7|Pounce
8|Reach
9|Damage & Epic[/table]
Magic: The natural attacks are considered magical weapons.
Wing: Deals a base 1d4+1/2 Str damage for a medium creature.
Damage: All natural weapon damage dice increase by one step.
Tail Sweep: Deals a base 1d8+11/2 Str damage for a medium creature.
Material: The Half-Dragon may choose to treat the natural attacks as a material of its choice.
Pounce: The Half-Dragon gains Pounce for the purposes of its natural attacks only. It cannot use manufactured weapons while pouncing.
Reach: The Half-Dragon's reach increases as if it were one size category larger for the purposes of its natural attacks.
Epic: The natural attacks are considered epic weapons.

Draconic Attributes +2: The increases dictated by Draconic Attributes increase to +2.

Spellcasting:
The Half-Dragon gains +1 level to a spontaneous spellcasting class used to qualify for this class, much like any other PrC.


Psionic:

Prerequisites:
Knowledge: Psionics 5 ranks & Psicraft 5 ranks.
At least 1 class level in any manifesting class.
Half-Dragon body class ability.

HD: d8
{table=head]Level|Bab|Fort|Ref|Will|
Special|
Manifesting

1|
+0|
+2|
+0|
+2|Breath Channeling, Form of the Dragon, Draconic Attributes +2|+1 level of Manifesting Class[/table]

Skills Points: 4+Intelligence modifier per level.
Class skills: Appraise, Autohypnosis, Concentration, Intimidate, Knowledge (All skills, taken individually), Psicraft, and Spot.

Proficiencies: The Psionic Half-Dragon gains no new proficiencies.

Breath Channeling: The Psionic Half-Dragon becomes able to channel its powers through its breath weapon in two ways. In both applications, this ability is activated as a full round action and counts as manifesting a power for the purposes of attacks of opportunity, spell interruption, augmenting, etc.
Breath Weapon Admixture: With this ability, the Half-Dragon manifests a power and charges it with the energies of its breath weapon. Those who are affected by the power must also make a Reflex save equal to the Reflex save of the Half-Dragon's breath weapon or take damage as if struck by the breath weapon (though they do not get a second save against this effect.) Using this ability maximizes the cooldown time for the breath weapon (so 5 rounds).
Spell Breath: This ability allows the Half-Dragon to "breathe out" a power in place of its breath weapon. The ability only works with powers that have a target other than personal, or area of effect powers. Those powers that require an attack roll instead allow a Reflex save equal to that of the breath weapon to negate the effect: otherwise, all within the breath weapon's area are affected as if the power was cast on them. In order to use this ability, the Psionic Half-Dragon must augment said power with 2 additional PP and expend psionic focus. The cooldown for the breath weapon is minimized (so 2 rounds). Note that using this ability does not deal breath weapon damage.

Form of the Dragon: At 2nd level the Half-Dragon may, as a free action, expend any amount of PP equal to or less than its ML in order to fuel its draconic blood, gaining a stronger connection to its draconic heritage. These abilities each last a number of rounds equal to the modifier of the mental ability score chosen under draconic attributes, and increase in power based on the amount of PP burned.

Dragon Skin: Gains DR/Magic equal to the amount of PP burned, and SR 11+the amount of PP burned.
This increases to DR/Epic at 20 HD.
Dragon Eyes: Gains blindsense out to a distance based on the amount of PP burned. At 6th level it upgrades to blindsight, and at 9th level it allows the Half-Dragon to even see enemies normally unaffected by blindsight, such as those with the darkstalker feat or those with superior invisibility.
{table]PP|Range
1|10'
3|25'
5|50'
7|75'
9|150'
11|250'
13|400'
15|600'
17|1000'[/table]
Dragon Presence: The Half-Dragon gains the Frightful Presence ability. It affects enemies with a range of 20' times one half the PP burned and has a Will save DC (10+1/2 PP burned+Cha mod). Those who fail and have HD less than half the PP burned are panicked; those who have HD less than PP burned are shaken. Creatures with HD equal to or greater than the PP burned are not affected.
Dragon Sinews: Gains a Draconic bonus to Strength & Natural Armor equal to half the PP burned, rounded up for natural armor and down for Strength.
Dragon Arsenal: The Half-Dragon's natural attacks are enhanced based on the table below. These additions are cumulative and stack.
{table]PP|Bonus
1|Magic
3|1 Wing
5|1 Wing
7|Damage
9|Tail Sweep
11|Material
13|Pounce
15|Reach
17|Damage & Epic[/table]
Magic: The natural attacks are considered magical weapons.
Wing: Deals a base 1d4+1/2 Str damage for a medium creature.
Damage: All natural weapon damage dice increase by one step.
Tail Sweep: Deals a base 1d8+11/2 Str damage for a medium creature.
Material: The Half-Dragon may choose to treat the natural attacks as a material of its choice.
Pounce: The Half-Dragon gains Pounce for the purposes of its natural attacks only. It cannot use manufactured weapons while pouncing.
Reach: The Half-Dragon's reach increases as if it were one size category larger for the purposes of its natural attacks.
Epic: The natural attacks are considered epic weapons.

Draconic Attributes +2: The increases dictated by Draconic Attributes increase to +2.

Manifesting:
The Half-Dragon gains +1 level to a manifesting class used to qualify for this class, much like any other PrC.


Sublime Way:
Prerequisites:
Able to initiate 1st level maneuvers
Martial Study 4 ranks
Balance, Concentration, Jump,

HD: d10
{table=head]Level|Bab|Fort|Ref|Will|
Special

1|
+1|
+2|
+0|
+2|Draconic Initiating, Draconic Attributes +2[/table]

Skills Points: 6+Intelligence modifier per level.
Class skills: Appraise, Concentration, Balance, Hide, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge (Arcana), Martial Study, Sense Motive, Spot, Tumble.

Draconic Initiating: The level of Sublime Way Half-Dragon counts as an initiating class for the purposes of determining Initiating Level. The Half-Dragon does not learn them normally, but rather adds them to its maneuvers/stances known as soon as it qualifies by merit of Initiator Level. These maneuvers/stances are considered of the Half-Dragon discipline, whose key skill is Intimidate and favored weapons are the Half-Dragon's natural attacks.
If the Half-Dragon qualified for this class by means of a feat, each maneuver is usable 1/encounter. If the Half-Dragon qualified for this class by means of an initiating class, each maneuver must be readied normally and may be recharged with the class' normal recharge method. Additionally, the Half-Dragon gains an additional maneuver readied, which must be spent on a Half-Dragon maneuver.

Breath Weapon Orb:
Strike
Level: 1
Initiation Action: 1 standard action
Range: Double Breath Weapon
Target: 1 creature
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None
The Half-Dragon gathers its breath weapon and launches it at an enemy in a large globule as opposed to a cone or a line. This attack allows no save, but requires a ranged touch attack to hit. It is otherwise identical to the standard breath weapon, except where noted.

Second Wind:
Boost
Level: 2
Initiation Action: 1 swift action
Range: Personal
Duration: Instantaneous
The Half-Dragon immediately reduces the cooldown time of its breath weapon by 5 rounds. If the Half-Dragon uses its breath weapon the same round this ability is activated, it gains a +1 bonus to the DC for each round the cooldown would have been reduced below 0.

Weaponized Exhalation:
Boost
Level: 3
Initiation Action: 1 swift action
Range: Personal
Target: 1 melee weapon, natural attack or piece of ammunition
Duration: 1 round
The Half-Dragon expels a globule of energy onto a weapon. For the duration of 1 round, that weapon deals additional damage equal to half the breath weapon's damage every time it successfully strikes an enemy.

Presence of the Dragon:
Boost
Level: 4
Initiation Action: 1 swift action
Range: Special
Target: Special
Duration: 1 round per 4 HD.
The Half-Dragon gains a facsimile of it's parents awe-inspiring presence. This maneuver may be used only in conjunction with a charge attack, while flying, or when using a strike gained as a part of the Half-Dragon class, and it is a mind-affecting fear effect.
If the maneuver is used as a part of a charge, the enemy must make a Will save DC (14+Mental Draconic Attribute modifier) or be Stunned and Shaken for 1 round per 3 Initiator Levels of the Half-Dragon. This condition is applied while the Half-Dragon is charging towards the enemy, not after they are stuck.
If the Half-Dragon is flying, any enemies within 10' of where the Half-Dragon is flying overhead must make a Will save DC (14+Mental Draconic Attribute modifier) or Cower for 1 round.
If this boost is used in conjunction with a Half-Dragon strike, any enemies affected by the strike must make a Will save DC (14+Mental Draconic Attribute modifier) or be Frightened for 1 round per 3 HD of the Half-Dragon.

Energy Radiation:
Stance
Level: 5
Initiation Action: 1 swift action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: Stance
While this stance is active, the Half-Dragon continually radiates the energies of its breath weapon. All enemies within its natural reach take damage equal to half its breath weapon at the beginning of every turn.

Burning Charge:
Strike
Level: 6
Initiation Action: 1 full round
Range: Breath Weapon
Target: 1 enemy
As a part of activating this strike, the Half-Dragon uses its breath weapon as normal. It may then choose one enemy within the radius of the breath weapon, and simultaneously makes a charge attack against that enemy. The Half-Dragon may make a full attack at the end of this charge.

Wings of Grandiosity:
Strike
Level: 7
Initiation Action: 1 standard action
Range: reach
Target: all within reach
The Half-Dragon curls its wings in against its body then spins around, unfurling them to reveal its true splendor and blasting back all its enemies. All enemies within or adjacent to the Half-Dragon's natural reach take 1d4+11/2 Str damage (as a natural weapon- larger Half-Dragons increase damage accordingly) and must succeed on an opposed strength check or are knocked back to the nearest square outside of the Half-Dragon's reach and knocked prone: meanwhile they must also make a Will save DC (17+Mental Draconic Attribute modifier) or cower for 1 round.

Spinning Dragon Holocaust:
Strike
Level: 8
Initiation Action: 1 full round action
Range: Special
Targets: Special
The Half-Dragon takes to the air, spinning about, strafing its enemies and repeatedly blasting its breath weapon. Initiating this maneuver, the Half-Dragon uses its breath weapon; it then moves to the apex of the breath weapon, and then may use its breath weapon again, afterward moving to the apex of its breath weapon, and then may use its breath weapon one final time, afterward moving to the apex of its breath weapon for a total of 3 breath weapon uses each followed by a movement. The Half-Dragon does not provoke attacks of opportunity for any of this movement.
The duration of the Half-Dragon's breath weapon cooldown is maximized (so 5 rounds) after using this maneuver.

Apotheosis:
Boost
Level: 9
Initiation Action: 1 Standard Action
Range: Self
Duration: 3 rounds
The Half-Dragon purges itself of all its weaker blood for 3 rounds, becoming a true dragon based on its parentage. This has the following effects:
+8 bonus to both Strength and the mental Draconic Attribute ability score.
Grows to Gargantuan size or 1 size category larger (whichever is bigger).
Base fly speed increases to 4x normal.
Triple natural armor.
Breath Weapon deals double damage, double range, and the save DC is increased by 4.
Gains 2 wing attacks at 2d6+1/2 Str, and 1 tail slap at 2d8+11/2 Str, both as secondary natural weapons. These damage dice assume Gargantuan size.
Gains the Crush ability.
This special attack allows a flying or jumping dragon of at least Huge size to land on opponents as a standard action, using its whole body to crush them. Crush attacks are effective only against opponents three or more size categories smaller than the dragon (though it can attempt normal overrun or grapple attacks against larger opponents).

A crush attack affects as many creatures as can fit under the dragon’s body. Creatures in the affected area must succeed on a Reflex save (DC equal to that of the dragon’s breath weapon) or be pinned, automatically taking bludgeoning damage during the next round unless the dragon moves off them. If the dragon chooses to maintain the pin, treat it as a normal grapple attack. Pinned opponents take damage from the crush each round if they don’t escape.

A crush attack deals the 4d6+1½ Str for a Gargantuan dragon.

Gains a Tail Sweep attack.

This special attack allows a dragon of at least Gargantuan size to sweep with its tail as a standard action. The sweep affects a half-circle with a radius of 30 feet (or 40 feet for a Colossal dragon), extending from an intersection on the edge of the dragon’s space in any direction. Creatures within the swept area are affected if they are four or more size categories smaller than the dragon. A tail sweep deals 2d6+1½ Str for a Gargantuan dragon. Affected creatures can attempt Reflex saves to take half damage (DC equal to that of the dragon’s breath weapon).

Automatically enters the Presence of the Dragon stance. It affects even those immune to Mind-Affecting. Those who aren't immune to Mind-Affecting are considered to have half their normal HD for the purposes of that stance. The Half-Dragon may maintain both this stance and one other stance for the duration of Apotheosis.

Draconic Attributes +2: The increases dictated by Draconic Attributes increase to +2.

Draconic:
Those who choose not to meld their dragon ancestry with a specific skillset can choose to focus and expand on their dragon side.
Prerequisites:
Knowledge (Arcana) 5 ranks, 5 ranks each in the 2 chosen skills under Breath Weapon Heritage.
At least one of the following feats:
Ability Focus (Breath Weapon)
Improved Flight
Improved Natural Armor
Improved Natural Attack
Multiattack

HD: D12
{table=head]Level|Bab|Fort|Ref|Will|
Special

1|
+1|
+2|
+2|
+2|Draconic Evolution, Draconic Attributes +2
[/table]

Skills Points: 6+Intelligence modifier per level.
Class skills: Appraise, Bluff, Disguise, Intimidate, Knowledge (Arcana), Listen, Search, Spellcraft, Spot, Survival, and Swim.

Draconic Evolution: Gains two of the following abilities, plus an additional 1 for every 5 HD the Half-Dragon possesses (rounded down).
Powerful Build. If this ability is taken again, the Half-Dragon loses Powerful Build and grows to large size, gaining +10' to its base land speed (and its fly speed increasing accordingly).

Alternate Form (usable 1/day per 2 HD, small or medium humanoid only).

2 Wing attacks dealing 1d4+1/2 Str damage & 1 Tail attack dealing 1d8+11/2 Str mod damage.

1 SLA with a type the same as the parent dragon's subtype or that the parent dragon can cast sometime during its life of a level no greater than 1/2 the Half-Dragon's HD. The SLA is usable 1/Spell Level times per day per HD, and has a save DC of (10+1/2 HD+Mental Draconic Attribute modifier). Every morning the Half-Dragon may switch out the SLA for another it qualifies for. This ability may be taken as many times as the Half-Dragon wishes.

May choose to have its breath weapon deal half regular damage and half untyped.

The Frightful Presence ability: has a radius of 10' per HD and a save DC (10+1/2 HD+Mental Draconic Attribute modifier). Those of an HD less than the Half-Dragon's are shaken, and those of an HD less than 1/2 the Half-Dragon's are panicked.

Blindsense out to 10' per HD, as well as doubling the Half-Dragon's current darkvision and granting superior low light vision (giving 4x the normal vision in shadowy illumination, as opposed to 2x). The Blindsense upgrades to Blindsight at 12 HD.

DR/Magic equal to HD and SR of 11+HD.

Draconic Attributes +2: The increases dictated by Draconic Attributes increase to +2.

Other: Any other abilities along these lines applying to a specific class may be designed, as the goal of the Half-Dragon is not to be a dragon-but-lesser, but to synergize the draconic and humanoid (i.e. PC class) aspects. As this was impossible with the Mundane aspect, it is suggested that PCs who do not fall under spellcasting, manifesting or initiating to tailor the 2nd level draconic abilities to their own class of choice.

Comments:
So. Half Dragon. Redone. Tell your friends. I wanted to get all the superficial/necessary stuff out of the way with the first level, so that's why it's a little bland. I hope the 2nd level should make up for it.
Mundane draconic stuff is kindof throwaway, but that's what you get for choosing D: none of the above. If anyone has suggestions for other paths, feel free to say so and, so long as I know it, I'll make an adaptation around it. However, I'd rather not make adaptations for specific classes (raging, knight's challenge, smiting, etc.) Note that the Sublime Way is going to be both rather potent and easy to qualify for even if you never take an initiating class, as you can take care of the maneuver with one feat and just go from there. Nevertheless, I wanted to accommodate those who do not use ToB, insane as they may be.:smalltongue:
I don't know incarnum nor pact magic, and thus did not make adaptations for those. However, I will be looking up the rules on such and attempting to make adaptations... but if anyone else wants to help out, it would not be refused.
Also, I know a lot of it is terribly worded. Totally my bad, but I'm kindof stumped as to how to word it better.

Changelog:
Altered Breath Channeling & Form of the Dragon a bit, and the psionic adaptation accordingly.
Altered a few maneuvers- Second Wind, Bodily Exhalation, Burning Charge and Wings of Grandiosity.
Altered the Mundane Half-Dragon's natural attacks & blindsense.

Reduced HD, BAB, and formatting stuff. Changed natural armor. Altered Draconic Presence maneuver.

Upped the breath weapon damage a bit and changed half brass to half bronze (which is what I originally intended.) Made each adaptation have different chassis, allowed mundane to have 3 abilities and increased DR.

Makiru
2011-03-22, 09:01 PM
Vivisector got a vote! Yay!
Aboleth.........it's getting there, it its own slimy way.
Pandorym however, is a more pressing matter. I know Hyudra has a no-psionics thing going on because of lack of knowledge, buuuuuut.......i'm going to poke people with sticks and request a look-over (even a very brief one will make me a happy lizard-lich) from anyone willing, simply because I can't think of anything else to do for now, other than changing a few abilities/givine others the switcheroo, which I have done.


I'll try to give you some Pandorym feedback. Keep in mind that this would be only the second critique I've ever done, so take my advice with many grains of salt.



First, there are no ability score upgrades on this class. Those tend to be kinda important. I'd say Charisma and (maybe) Constitution.

BAB is pathetic and strictly worse than the psion/wizard. Poor thing will never hit anything! Bump it up to at least 1/2 BAB.

No natural armor either? For shame! Although natural armor might not make as much sense in this situation. Maybe give it a deflection bonus equal to its Cha.

Abilities not labeled (Ex), (Su), or (Sp). For some reason, this really bothers me.

Regarding Manifestation of Will, it says to pick 3 disciplines and you can only manifest from those. Does that include the psion-only discipline powers, or just the powers from the main psion/wilder list? If the former, you might want to bump it down to 2 disciplines at most. Even then, it's still akin to giving a wizard multiple specializations, so tread with caution.

Powers known per level seems to be somewhere between psion and psychic warrior. It's probably a good amount if it can use the discipline-specific powers.

The save on Faint Sign of Binding should follow normal save progression: 10 + 1/2 HD + ability mod. Otherwise, nice and flavorful.

The limbs on Corporealize shouldn't have a duration. When you first get the ability, as written, you would only get a minimum of 7 X Int rounds worth of holding things, and that's only if you don't use PP for anything else. That translates to just under three minutes. There's already enough penalty for manifesting and using the limbs, it doesn't need a duration tacked on to it as well, in my opinion.

I'd say that you should only get one attack when using Mental Smog. There should be some trade-off or it would make using BAB mostly meaningless.

Magical Buffer and Red Rage are fine at a glance.

9th level is probably about right to gain incorporeality. Does Pandorym lose its Strength score? If so, what replaces it to hit?

Orange Mind Acid has a typo. The ability is gained at 10th level and does 1 point of Wisdom drain. It then goes on to say at 10th level, it does 2 points of Wisdom damage. There's something wrong here that really needs to be fixed.

Moderate Sign of Binding is a bit too narrow to be worth a level all on its own. Still a nice ability, though.

Lightning Speed isn't too powerful at 12th level. Good.

Again, Psionic Leech is too narrow of an ability to stand on its own. Maybe make it apply to casters somehow, or add another minor ability at 13th level. Also, they manifest "powers", not "spells".

Green Glow: Location of Sympathy spell?

Strong Sign of Binding: Again, narrow, but not as much as the other abilities. Again, consider widening the focus or adding some other ability at 15th level.

Turquoise Tyrant, Anathematic Secrecy, and Indigo Insanity are fine.

Psionic Vortex: Still a little narrow, but it has a benefit that directly helps the player, so I'll let this one slide. On the table, it's still called Psionic Black Hole, though. Might want to change that.

I really like Purple Punishment. This is the kind of flavorful, over-the-top ability that defines what a capstone should be to me.

Overwhelming Sign of Binding is a little ambiguous. Does it also apply on the Material and Transitive Planes?



On to Creature of Annihilation:

...Actually, I really don't have any problems with the prestige. Everything is so crazy at epic levels that that you could put anything and it wouldn't make much difference.

The Antigamer
2011-03-22, 11:00 PM
Gray Jester (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10051752&postcount=693) updated. Posting responses to Gorgon's last critique here:





Gray Jester: 50' move speed is a little much for level 1.

Alright, I'll make it 30' to start, and add +10 speed at HD 3 and HD 6.


Hideous Laughter: does the feint force them to make the save, or actually hitting them? Either way, that's a pretty silly high save DC for something that can be accomplished so easily.
From what I gathered of Oslecamo's original class, I think the mechanics were if you feinted before making the attack to hit the creature, you would add your full charisma modifier to the Hideous Laughter DC instead of 1/2 charisma. I changed the wording to try to make it more clear.


Devour joy: "All laughing creature[s] can"
Don't abbreviate randomly.
Anyways, I see no reason why a gray jester would ever use this. Those under the effects of a hideous laughter spell have pretty much already lost. This makes them not lose, and then weakens the jester.
Whoops, I thought I had changed the part about them stopping laughing. Now they get an extra save to stop laughing instead. If you think this is an unattractive ability, then there are three ways to improve it:
1. Hideous Laughter effects remain, with no new save attempt, after a Devour Joy.
2. No penalties for using Devour Joy.
3. Increase benefits of Devour Joy.
Which of those, or combination of those, should I implement to make the ability better?


Joy slaves: Ehhhh... I donno... that means you could get a bunch of characters equal to your ECL as joy slaves. Including wizards, who never use charisma. Kindof difficult, but very, very possible.
Yes, which is why I was considering having the ability be based on the combined HD of the creatures, like a cleric controlling undead, but Hyudra said she thought the 1/5 HD limit would probably work.

I removed the weakness for using Devour Joy, to try to make the ability see more use. I also created a Bleak One template, and may have made it a bit on the strong side, in another attempt to make Devour Joy useful. I figured removing spells unless the Jester is actively controlling the Bleak One would preserve the action economy. This is a vision of a Jester with a few rather powerful Bleak Ones. Alternatively, I could remove the ability to cast spells, use SLAs at all, and increase the number of slaves a jester can have, trading potentially powerful individual slaves for a mob of physical mooks (and the ability to make a circus :smalltongue:). I could also have the template be more along the many mooks line, and allow the Jester to choose one to be more powerful, like the current template. If I go that route, or the mook route, I'd probably make the amount controlled be based off of total HD of all controlled Bleak Ones, like a cleric controlling undead.

Bloody Initiate
2011-03-22, 11:20 PM
Half Dragon:

-You may want to add "any non-dragon" to the prerequisites, mostly because it makes a lot of sense. I suppose a dragon of one color could pick up abilities of another color, but it's still not a "half-dragon." It doesn't matter that much, it just makes one wonder just how dragon can a dragon get?

-Except in extremely dull or simplistic monsters, 2 skill points per level never feels right. It doesn't even feel right on fighters, and it definitely never felt right on Duskblades, who this class appears to be modeled after (I'm playing a Duskblade in a RL campaign, the Int focus does NOT make up for the low skill points, contrary to popular belief).

-Natural armor should stack with natural armor from other "sources" not just other "races."

-Breath Weapon Heritage: Energy resistance equal to HD of the same type as breath weapon. As it is they can just choose an energy type.

-Breath weapon DCs are almost always con-based. Seems odd to make it cha-based, especially if they weren't a cha-based caster before they entered the PrC.

-The Draconic Wings feat is strictly better than the wings gained initially by this class, which strikes me as lousy because I HATE kobolds and now the smug little kobolds are better fliers than your half-dragon. The fact that yours evolve into decent flight later makes up for it, but... I just really hate the whole kobolds = dragons thing... so I try to take everything they have away. It doesn't have to matter...

-I've already stated my excitement for breath channeling, but I think you've made the cost too high when you could have instead spread the potential out so it scales. Using the same cost for both breath weapon admixture and spell breath is probably the biggest problem.

First breath weapon admixture: Not good at all for what it costs. You throw some energy damage on top of your spell? I suppose that's neat if you cast a non-damaging BFC spell, but it's never going to be worth two uses of the same spell. Breath weapons generally work like weak evocation spells, and so burning two of your good spells to throw in the crappy effects of a breath weapon is just plain lame. Also, why does it cost spells when you're adding breath weapon damage? Shouldn't it instead count as a use of your breath weapon and the spell you cast, rather than two uses of a spell and no uses of your breath weapon?

Now spell breath:

Full-round action + 2 spells lost + provokes AoO + can be interrupted + you're not doing it again this encounter (That's what double cooldown does) = way too high a price AND a lot of unnecessary complexity.

A lot of the duskblade's Arcane Channeling isn't just about effectiveness but about making it simple enough to use in a fight. You make a melee attack, add spell effects, and scratch a spell per day off. That's the kind of simple + effective you can use, because it's exactly as complicated as casting a spell, not a bit more.

So I suggest first restricting the types of spells Breath Channeling works with, you can add more later. How about spells with an area in their entry? Affecting everyone in the breath weapon's area with a ray of enfeeblement at 3rd level is really cool, but also insanely good and should come later with a HD requirement. The cost does not make up for it, because it's just a strangely high cost for an ability that doesn't really fit the higher cost. It's just awkward when it could instead make a lot of sense.

If you don't restrict the spells the ability works with, then I think it's just too insanely good for the level at which it is gained.

You can: Turn touch-ranged spells into area effects. Turn personal-range spells into area-effects. Two spell slots is too LOW a cost for this stuff.

Later on you can buff your entire party by breathing on them, which is AWESOME, but it should come LATER.

Provoking an AoO is OK I suppose, breath weapons don't provoke AoOs, but if you want that limitation on there that's fine, except now you've added up to two rolls to what was a simple standard action (I know it's a full round action to breath channel, the point is that the spell and the breath weapon were originally standard actions), because this ability can be gained at 3 and the character won't be auto-succeeding concentration checks yet.


That's all I have time to do right now, RL calls (rather urgently), but breath channeling needs to be leveled out.

P.S. I really like that you included an adaptation section. I may never have had a problem with sorcerer dragons, but other people did, and just because I never had a problem with it doesn't mean it's not nice to see something DIFFERENT. There's so much dragon material out there it's sickening, because it's ALL THE SAME. Scales, claws, bite, breath weapon, two immunities, frightful presence, over and over and over again. As I said in an earlier post, maybe I'm just dragon'd out, so anything NEW is a breath of fresh air.

Frog Dragon
2011-03-23, 12:17 AM
I'm not offended. Not at all.
Ugh. That's what I get for posting at what somewhere close to midnight. What I meant is that while your comments are useful anyway, in this case, you actually managed to inadvertently inspire me to write more abilities.

NineThePuma
2011-03-23, 12:20 AM
The Half-Dragon (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10494357&postcount=1145) has been updated. I worked in some battle field control effects, additional blastiness, or other options into the various types of Half-Dragon, strongly improved the 1st level (but at the same time, made it not as awesome as some others) and made the second level equally sexy.

I would like to note that immediately following the completion of my update, I saw that Gorgon had finished updating his. I still disagree with his, mostly because it's a Prestige class. That is ALSO an inherited template that you have from birth.

Gorgondantess
2011-03-23, 12:25 AM
You may want to add "any non-dragon" to the prerequisites, mostly because it makes a lot of sense. I suppose a dragon of one color could pick up abilities of another color, but it's still not a "half-dragon." It doesn't matter that much, it just makes one wonder just how dragon can a dragon get?
Half-Red Bronze Dragon. I've done it before. Why not? It's fun.


-Except in extremely dull or simplistic monsters, 2 skill points per level never feels right. It doesn't even feel right on fighters, and it definitely never felt right on Duskblades, who this class appears to be modeled after (I'm playing a Duskblade in a RL campaign, the Int focus does NOT make up for the low skill points, contrary to popular belief).
Mainly for balance. Remember that these are innate abilities gained from heritage, not training, so 2+int skill points is justified. Also, most classes entering it will have 2+int skill points, so it keeps things nice and uncomplicated.


-Natural armor should stack with natural armor from other "sources" not just other "races."
Nnnnno... Just other races. I don't want it to stack with stuff that doesn't stack with racial armor bonuses.


-Breath Weapon Heritage: Energy resistance equal to HD of the same type as breath weapon. As it is they can just choose an energy type.
Ah. I have deleted 1 'o' from the ability's description. I meant to write "chose", not "choose".:smalltongue:


-Breath weapon DCs are almost always con-based. Seems odd to make it cha-based, especially if they weren't a cha-based caster before they entered the PrC.
Ah, right. Will do. A holdover from my previous iteration.


First breath weapon admixture: Not good at all for what it costs. You throw some energy damage on top of your spell? I suppose that's neat if you cast a non-damaging BFC spell, but it's never going to be worth two uses of the same spell.
Or you could mix it with something like a metamagick'd wings of flurry and dish out some serious damage. In actuality, though, it's more meant to be used on lower level spells you wouldn't otherwise use: for example, for more conservative combat, using it with a colour spray. And remember, for higher level spells, you already have an extra spell slot per day.
Thing is, NORMALLY it's not going to be too powerful, but there are a few pretty potent combinations possible there. What blaster mage would mind tying a bit of extra damage to their nova?


Full-round action + 2 spells lost + provokes AoO + can be interrupted + you're not doing it again this encounter (That's what double cooldown does) = way too high a price AND a lot of unnecessary complexity.
Not really. It's casting a full-round action spell that costs 2 spell slots instead of one.


You can: Turn touch-ranged spells into area effects.
Intentional. Yes, it's an area, but it also allows a save to negate. Orb of fire isn't a higher level than fireball because it adds dazing.

Turn personal-range spells into area-effects.
THAT I will restrict. Good call.


Later on you can buff your entire party by breathing on them, which is AWESOME, but it should come LATER.
Not hard to get a rod of chain spell that does the same thing. And that's WBL as opposed to a caster level, which thou shalt not lose.

Right now, I'm not going to change anything there. Not that I necessarily don't think it should be changed- you certainly bring up some valid points, but I want to wait for a second or third opinion on this one.


P.S. I really like that you included an adaptation section. I may never have had a problem with sorcerer dragons, but other people did, and just because I never had a problem with it doesn't mean it's not nice to see something DIFFERENT. There's so much dragon material out there it's sickening, because it's ALL THE SAME. Scales, claws, bite, breath weapon, two immunities, frightful presence, over and over and over again. As I said in an earlier post, maybe I'm just dragon'd out, so anything NEW is a breath of fresh air.

Oh, you still get all that, just in a different package.:smalltongue:
(Okay, granted, each one has a little more to it- like the breath channeling- though the mundane is pretty much just that, as I have nothing else to work with.)

NineThePuma
2011-03-23, 01:04 AM
Half-Dragon
Crappy Pic.
The picture looks like it has FUR. What the crap?


Prerequisites:
Able to spontaneously cast 1st level spells.
Knowledge: Arcana 4 ranks.
Language: Draconic.
Any creature type but undead or construct. Dragons are extremely prolific creatures, but even they can't mate with the inanimate.
Wait, wait, wait.

Acquired And Inherited Templates
Some templates can be added to creatures anytime. Templates such as these are referred to as acquired templates, indicating that the creature did not always have the attributes of the template.

Other templates, known as inherited templates, are part of a creature from the beginning of its existence. Creatures are born with these templates.


Creating A Half-Dragon
"Half-dragon" is an inherited template that can be added to any living, corporeal creature (referred to hereafter as the base creature).
This already breaks from the source material in a very large fashion and honestly breaks the class in my opinion. Breaks it in terms of fluff and flavor and stuff, not breaks as in the class is broken.

Also, the default is still a spell caster, and I'd like to note that I severely dislike that. Instead, I would make the baselines NOT a stupid gishy build, and have it mundane, with the gishiness being an added bonus.

Skills: 2 + Intelligence modifier per level.
Class skills: Appraise, Concentration, Intimidate, Knowledge (Arcane), Search, Spellcraft, and Spot.
Validate these skill choices to me. It 'innately' knows magical traditions, or things about identifying constructs? It naturally has a sense of the value of certain objects?

Breath Weapon Heritage: At 1st level, the Half-Dragon chooses its draconic heritage. Rather than choosing a specific dragon type (though it may certainly do so if it chooses), the Half-Dragon has leeway in this matter.
It gains a breath weapon usable once every 1d4+1 rounds that deals 1d8/2 HD damage of either acid, cold, electricity, fire or sonic damage. Those who choose sonic instead deal 1d6/2 HD damage. Alternate energy types, such as force, hellfire, etc. may be chosen, and they each deal 1d8/3 HD damage. Regardless, they gain a resistance to the energy type they chose equal to their HD. The Half-Dragon can choose either a line or cone breath weapon: the cone has a range of 15' plus 5'/2 HD, and the line has a range of 30' plus 5'/HD.
Like all breath weapons, those within the area of the half dragon's breath weapon may make a Reflex save DC (10+1/2 HD+Con mod)
Finally, the Half-Dragon may add two skills of its choice to its list of class skills in this and every class to represent its draconic heritage: for example, a half brass dragon might choose survival and swim, while a half shadow dragon might choose hide and move silently.
Why the odd breath recharge? You also didn't complete your thought on reflex saves. Additionally, Brass dragons DON'T HAVE swim as a class skill.

Bonus Spells: The Half-Dragon, at first level, gains a bonus spell per day that it may assign to any spell level. Every time it levels up, it may change which spell level the bonus spell is assigned to.
At 2nd level, the Half-Dragon gains an additional bonus spell per day, though it may not assign both its bonus spell per day to the same spell level unless it can only cast one level of spells.
*kicks the Spell-caster ness that has nothing to do with actually being a half-dragon*

From a balance perspective, this is actually REALLY good. Like, seriously. Awesome dip.

Breath Channeling: At 2nd level, the Half-Dragon becomes able to channel its magic through its breath weapon in two ways. In both applications, this ability is activated as a full round action, consumes 2 uses per day of the spell of choice, counts as casting a spell for the purposes of attacks of opportunity, spell interruption, etc., and doubles the cooldown time of the breath weapon.
Breath Weapon Admixture: With this ability, the Half-Dragon casts a spell and charges it with the energies of its breath weapon. Those who are affected by the spell must also make a Reflex save equal to the Reflex save of the Half-Dragon's breath weapon or take damage as if struck by the breath weapon (though they do not get a second save against this effect.)
Spell Breath: This ability allows the Half-Dragon to "breath out" a spell in place of its breath weapon. Those spells that require an attack roll instead allow a Reflex save equal to that of the breath weapon to negate the effect: otherwise, all within the breath weapon's area are affected as if the spell was cast on them.
So, basically, Breath Weapon Admixture is useless, as its just a little bit of extra damage that has a SEPARATE SAVE and Spell Breath is basically a free Shape Spell + Chain Spell? That's messed up.

Form of the Dragon: At 2nd level the Half-Dragon may, as a free action, expend one spell slot in order to fuel its draconic blood, gaining a stronger connection to its draconic heritage. These abilities each last a number of rounds equal to the modifier of the mental ability score chosen under draconic attributes, and increase in power based on the spell level of the spell level burned.
-snip-
Yay, something that has NO SUPPORT anywhere in the fluff I can think of, except POSSIBLY the 3.0 Dragon Disciple. I'd also like to note that this is perhaps, the single best gishy class ever PURELY because of this ability.


Adaptation:
While Half-Dragons are usually sorcerous, some simply don't have an aptitude for it. As such, the below adaptations are listed for those classes:

Psionic: Prerequisite of spontaneous spellcasting is changed to "Able to manifest 1st level powers".
Gains +1 effective Manifesting Level (just for the purposes of maximum power points, duration, range, etc.) at 1st level and +1 Manifesting Level (much like a PrC) at 2nd level, losing the bonus spontaneous spellcasting and bonus spell slots.
Breath Channeling: Identical, though it channels powers instead of spells, and rather than requiring the casting of the spell twice to use the ability requires augmenting the power with 2 PP and expending psionic focus (as well as doubling the cooldown time for breath weapon, as normal).
Form of the Dragon: Replace all instances of "spell level" with "half PP" and the initial instance of "one spell slot" with "An amount of PP equal to no more than the Half-Dragon's Manifester Level". Otherwise identical.
Again, Breath Weapon Admixture is useless, and Spell Breath (Power Breath?) is amazing. Form of the Dragon is still fluffless, but it looks relatively balanced. To the above, anyways.

Sublime Way:
Prerequisite of spontaneous spellcasting is changed to "Able to initiate 1st level maneuvers."
Rather than gaining spellcasting progression and bonus spell slots, the Half-Dragon's levels are considered full initiating levels.
Breath Channeling & Form of the Dragon are replaced with a list of maneuvers & stances. The Half-Dragon does not learn them normally, but rather adds them to its maneuvers/stances known as soon as it qualifies by merit of Initiator Level.
This is gonna be fun!
Breath Weapon Orb:
Strike
Level: 1
Initiation Action: 1 standard action
Range: Double Breath Weapon
Target: 1 creature
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None
The Half-Dragon gathers its breath weapon and launches it at an enemy in a large globule as opposed to a cone or a line. This attack allows no save, but requires a ranged touch attack to hit. It is otherwise identical to the standard breath weapon, except where noted.
... It hits someone further away? Seriously, this is useless and I'd never actually ready this maneuver.

Second Wind:
Boost
Level: 2
Initiation Action: 1 swift action
Range: Personal
Duration: Instantaneous
The Half-Dragon immediately reduces the cooldown time of its breath weapon by 6 rounds.
Still wouldn't ready it, unless I'm abusing metabreath feats a ton.

Burning Brand:
Boost
Level: 3
Initiation Action: 1 swift action
Range: Personal
Target: 1 melee weapon, natural attack or piece of ammunition
Duration: 1 round
The Half-Dragon expels a globule of energy onto a weapon. For the duration of 1 round, that weapon deals additional damage equal to half the breath weapon's damage every time it successfully strikes an enemy.
Burning Brand is an ACTUAL maneuver. I assume you'll want to change the name.

Presence of the Dragon:
Stance
Level: 4
Initiation Action: 1 swift action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: Stance
While this stance is active, the Half-Dragon gains a dragon's Frightful Presence. It affects enemies within a range of 10' per initiator level and has a Will save DC (14+Mental Draconic Attribute modifier). Those who fail and have HD less than half the Half-Dragon's initiator level are panicked; those who fail and have HD less than the Half-Dragon's initiator level are shaken.
What happens to things with more HD than the Half Dragon's initiator level? Also, useless if it follows the normal stuff.

Bodily Exhalation:
Stance
Level: 5
Initiation Action: 1 swift action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: Stance
While this stance is active, the Half-Dragon continually exhales its breath weapon out of every pore in its body. All enemies within reach take damage equal to half its breath weapon at the beginning of every turn.
Shouldn't that read 'Natural Reach'? Also, how the HECK do you breath out your pores? Further, what's making your allies immune?

Burning Charge:
Strike
Level: 6
Initiation Action: 1 full round
Range: Breath Weapon
Target: 1 enemy
As a part of activating this strike, the Half-Dragon uses its breath weapon as normal. It may then choose one enemy within the radius of the breath weapon, and simultaneously makes a charge attack against that enemy.I would give it a bonus to its charge attack of some kind. The opponent is flatfooted against it or something.

Wings of Grandiosity:
Strike
Level: 7
Initiation Action: 1 standard action
Range: reach
Target: all within reach
The Half-Dragon curls its wings in against its body then spins around, unfurling them to reveal its true splendor and blasting back all its enemies. All enemies within reach take 1d4+1/2 Str damage and must succeed on an opposed strength check or are knocked back to the nearest square outside of the Half-Dragon's reach: meanwhile they must make a Will save DC (17+Mental Draconic Attribute modifier) or cower for 1 round.
See my comments about natural reach.

Spinning Dragon Holocaust:
Strike
Level: 8
Initiation Action: 1 full round action
Range: Special
Targets: Special
The Half-Dragon takes to the air, spinning about, strafing its enemies and repeatedly blasting its breath weapon. Initiating this maneuver, the Half-Dragon uses its breath weapon; it then moves to the apex of the breath weapon, and then may use its breath weapon again, afterward moving to the apex of its breath weapon, and then may use its breath weapon one final time, afterward moving to the apex of its breath weapon for a total of 3 breath weapon uses each followed by a movement. The Half-Dragon does not provoke attacks of opportunity for any of this movement.
The Half-Dragon cannot use its breath weapon for another 1d4+1 minutes after this maneuver.
Oh my. I can use this to deal my breath weapon's damage 3 times in a single turn. I do think that the cool down is a little ridiculous though.

Apotheosis:
Boost
Level: 9
Initiation Action: 1 Standard Action
Range: Self
Duration: 3 rounds
The Half-Dragon purges itself of all its weaker blood for 3 rounds, becoming a true dragon based on its parentage. This has the following effects:
+8 bonus to both Strength and the mental Draconic Attribute ability score.
Grows to Gargantuan size or 1 size category larger (whichever is bigger).
Base fly speed increases to 4x normal.
Triple natural armor.
Breath Weapon deals double damage, double range, and the save DC is increased by 4.
Gains 2 wing attacks at 2d6+1/2 Str, and 1 tail slap at 2d8+11/2 Str, both as secondary natural weapons. These damage dice assume Gargantuan size.
Gains the Crush ability.
This special attack allows a flying or jumping dragon of at least Huge size to land on opponents as a standard action, using its whole body to crush them. Crush attacks are effective only against opponents three or more size categories smaller than the dragon (though it can attempt normal overrun or grapple attacks against larger opponents).

A crush attack affects as many creatures as can fit under the dragon’s body. Creatures in the affected area must succeed on a Reflex save (DC equal to that of the dragon’s breath weapon) or be pinned, automatically taking bludgeoning damage during the next round unless the dragon moves off them. If the dragon chooses to maintain the pin, treat it as a normal grapple attack. Pinned opponents take damage from the crush each round if they don’t escape.

A crush attack deals the 4d6+1½ Str for a Gargantuan dragon.

Gains a Tail Sweep attack.

This special attack allows a dragon of at least Gargantuan size to sweep with its tail as a standard action. The sweep affects a half-circle with a radius of 30 feet (or 40 feet for a Colossal dragon), extending from an intersection on the edge of the dragon’s space in any direction. Creatures within the swept area are affected if they are four or more size categories smaller than the dragon. A tail sweep deals 2d6+1½ Str for a Gargantuan dragon. Affected creatures can attempt Reflex saves to take half damage (DC equal to that of the dragon’s breath weapon).

Automatically enters the Presence of the Dragon stance. It affects even those immune to Mind-Affecting. Those who aren't immune to Mind-Affecting are considered to have half their normal HD for the purposes of that stance. The Half-Dragon may maintain both this stance and one other stance for the duration of Apotheosis.
Wow, this is ridiculous. But it takes a STANDARD ACTION TO INITIATE, and therefore is less useful. However, I will note, with a Warblade, I can actually perform this maneuver once every two turns.

Mundane:

Remove requirement of spontaneous spellcasting for +1 BAB and +2 will save.
Loses bonus spells, spontaneous spellcasting progression, form of the dragon and breath channeling.
At 2nd level, may choose 2 of the following abilities:

Powerful Build. If this ability is taken again, the Half-Dragon loses Powerful Build and grows to large size, gaining +10' to its base land speed (and its fly speed increasing accordingly).

Alternate Form (usable 1/day per 2 HD, small or medium humanoid only).

2 Wing attacks dealing 1d4+1/2 Str damage.

1 Tail attack dealing 1d8+11/2 Str mod damage.

1 SLA with a type the same as the parent dragon's subtype or that the parent dragon can cast sometime during its life of a level no greater than 1/2 the Half-Dragon's HD. The SLA is usable 1/Spell Level times per day per HD, and has a save DC of (10+1/2 HD+Mental Draconic Attribute modifier). Every morning the Half-Dragon may switch out the SLA for another it qualifies for. This ability may be taken twice, for 2 SLAs.

May choose to have its breath weapon deal half regular damage and half untyped.

The Frightful Presence ability: has a radius of 10' per HD and a save DC (10+1/2 HD+Mental Draconic Attribute modifier). Those of an HD less than the Half-Dragon's are shaken, and those of an HD less than 1/2 the Half-Dragon's are panicked.

Blindsense out to 10' per HD.

DR/Magic of 1/2 HD and SR of 11+HD.

Most of these are USELESS. Seriously. You should let Powerful Build boost the damage of all natural attacks. Also, Frightful Presence is useless. Its ALWAYS been useless, as HD increase faster than CR.

Other: Any other abilities along these lines applying to a specific class may be designed, as the goal of the Half-Dragon is not to be a dragon but lesser, but to synergize the draconic and humanoid (i.e. PC class) aspects. As this was impossible with the Mundane aspect, it is suggested that PCs who do not fall under spellcasting, manifesting or initiating to tailor the 2nd level draconic abilities to their own class of choice.Replies in green.

Hyudra
2011-03-23, 01:07 AM
Replies in orange.

Light orange against light green is hard to read. My eyes, they bleed.

Also, biased critique is biased.

The Antigamer
2011-03-23, 01:14 AM
Hey Hyudra, now that I'm back and have edited the Gray Jester, the next time you're messing with the first posts could it get moved off the abandoned list?

NineThePuma
2011-03-23, 01:18 AM
Biased critique isn't THAT biased. The balance of the abilities is all over the place.

I'll switch over to something less eyeseering. Orange is just my usual default.

Gorgondantess
2011-03-23, 01:27 AM
Nine, if you're going to be a rude about it, then I'm not going to respond to it.

NineThePuma
2011-03-23, 01:31 AM
If you're going to assume everyone wants to be a gish, after the ENTIRE THREAD basically said "No" to it, my patience is limited. The fact that you also seem to be very attached to a useless (on a PC) feature does not help my mood. However, even ignoring my blatant hate at gishing, your balance is out of whack.

NineThePuma
2011-03-23, 01:45 AM
COMPARE:

(The following assumes that you are using Human as your base race on both sides and the Elite Array. Other basic assumptions can alter these numbers significantly.)
{table=Head]Category|Sorc 20|Sorc 18/Half Dragon 2
Average HP|151|174
Spells Per Day|Standard|-1 9th Level, +1 other
Save DCs|20+Spell level|21+spell level
Familiar|Standard|-1 Int & Natural Armor
Caster level|20|19
BAB|+10/+5|+11/+6/+1[/table]

That's not even considering the OTHER bonuses the Half Dragon adds. HD is CLEARLY superior to the normal Sorc, and it doesn't even slow many other builds down at all.

Edit: Forgot to factor in the d12 hitdice. Oops. Also, added BAB row, cause I'm feeling bored.

Benly
2011-03-23, 02:42 AM
That's not even considering the OTHER bonuses the Half Dragon adds. HD is CLEARLY superior to the normal Sorc, and it doesn't even slow many other builds down at all.

Other than the part where you're permanently a full spell level behind the wizard, anyway. A lost casting level doesn't look like much at 20, but you feel it on the way up.

Also, did you read the "Adaptation" section? There's stuff for noncaster half-dragons there. It's not Sexy Amazing but at first glance it looked pretty solid. Maybe the class description should include a note mentioning the Adaptation section so that people know it's actually got crunch and meat in it.

NineThePuma
2011-03-23, 03:40 AM
Other than the part where you're permanently a full spell level behind the wizard, anyway. A lost casting level doesn't look like much at 20, but you feel it on the way up.Get this. Nothing, anywhere, says that you have to take Half Dragon before level 18.


Also, did you read the "Adaptation" section? There's stuff for noncaster half-dragons there. It's not Sexy Amazing but at first glance it looked pretty solid. Maybe the class description should include a note mentioning the Adaptation section so that people know it's actually got crunch and meat in it.

I looked, and pretty much the entire section needs some tweaking and adaptations. It's like Gorgon just threw stuff in on top of his stuff in an effort to appease the people who didn't like it last time.

Cogidubnus
2011-03-23, 05:08 AM
I can't look at the Half-Dragon myself until I get home this evening, but Nine, you don't need to be so aggressive. Helpful suggestions are more likely to influence the class than nasty remarks - it stings enough when anyone tells you there's something wrong with your work.

NineThePuma
2011-03-23, 05:56 AM
Okay... well, as I said, spellcasting or bust.
Bust it is, then, due to overwhelming support.
-continued discussion-
Allow me to reiterate:
This is a thread to discuss monster classes. Do you see a half-dragon monster class here that requires spellcasting? Because I don't. If you'd like to discuss these things, feel free to start a new thread.
Just because you deleted it doesn't mean we can't discuss it. If you're not going to do it, I can pound out a 2 level class in less than an hour.

What do you guys imagine when someone says "Half-Dragon"?
*after my post*

EDIT: I'm not trying to be a jerk about it: I have taken your suggestions into account, and am currently in the process of giving the half dragon a total overhaul. So, rather than beating that dead horse, why don't y'all try critiquing another monster class? Or, better yet, make your own? You all seem so invested in this thread, it's a pity you're not contributing.
Note the edit. Though, if you want to give a shot at it, go ahead.
-snipped out mine-
-weeks pass-

-snip out his-
Yeah, I've already given an in depth review of it, and shown why I think its broken/useless/uninspired, etc. To be completely honest, I don't think I got snippy until he decided that I was being rude for not pulling punches.

Scio
2011-03-23, 09:23 AM
Alright, why don't we just divide it into Half-Dragon(Magic) and Half-Dragon(Physical) like what was done with the Mind Flayer? That way Gorgondantess can make his all gishy while Nine can make what he thinks it should be. Then we can, like, merge the posts or something, yes?

Bloody Initiate
2011-03-23, 09:28 AM
Finishing my critique of Gorgon's Half-Dragon. I'll do Nine's later since I was half-way through this one and his got a lift:

First, in response to your post:

Half-Red Bronze Dragon. I've done it before. Why not? It's fun.

Because you have no non-dragon restriction, and getting +1 Str or +1 con every level isn't so bad, neither is getting Con mod natural armor, so people can take your half-dragon class REPEATEDLY?

It's not "OMGborken!" It's just silly, and if you like leaving backdoors for shenanigans then be my guest, but just as everyone else inserts personal preference into their critiques so will I. I tend to want to take my character - and the other characters in the party - seriously. You can have a fun and humor without having five halves of different dragons in you.



Mainly for balance. Remember that these are innate abilities gained from heritage, not training, so 2+int skill points is justified. Also, most classes entering it will have 2+int skill points, so it keeps things nice and uncomplicated.

Yes, except it doesn't do anything for balance. 2 more skill points per level doesn't hurt anyone, it just lets them make a more interesting character who is has choices for being useful outside of combat.

It doesn't matter, I've just played plenty of classes that get 2 skill points per level and it doesn't balance anything it just hurts your out-of-combat utility (Creating a form of temporary insanity where non-combat bores you so thoroughly that you see every NPC as a potential fight) and means you often level up without even looking at your skills, because they're such an unrewarding aspect of your character that you forget you even have them.



Nnnnno... Just other races. I don't want it to stack with stuff that doesn't stack with racial armor bonuses.

I was just referring to the trend of natural armor not to stack, but to improve existing natural armor bonuses.



Or you could mix it with something like a metamagick'd wings of flurry and dish out some serious damage. In actuality, though, it's more meant to be used on lower level spells you wouldn't otherwise use: for example, for more conservative combat, using it with a colour spray. And remember, for higher level spells, you already have an extra spell slot per day.
Thing is, NORMALLY it's not going to be too powerful, but there are a few pretty potent combinations possible there. What blaster mage would mind tying a bit of extra damage to their nova?

Your example, a metamagick'd wings of flurry, is a lot worse deal than another casting of wings of flurry.

Burning two spells slots for "a few pretty potent combinations" sounds a lot like the way half dragon breath weapons are frequently viewed. "I'll never use it in a serious fight, but hey, it's kinda fun every now and then."

Like I said, the cost for both breath channeling abilities should not be the same. You can make the one cost an extra spell, but the other should cost a use of the breath weapon. Breath weapon < spells. So no one who knows what they're doing is going to burn a spell to add breath weapon damage, especially considering your breath weapon damage is inferior to evocation spells of the same level, so it's not even worth burning an evocation spell unless you're sure you're going to die next turn.



Not really. It's casting a full-round action spell that costs 2 spell slots instead of one.

My point was just that they aren't going to use it like you seem to think, or more accurately you haven't put enough information into the entry to accommodate even accidentally obvious uses of the ability.

What happens when...

Duskblade 1/Half-Dragon 2 (ECL 3) breathes resist energy on his party on the same energy type as his breath weapon? Do they get the benefits of the spell or the damage of the breath weapon first? Also they can prepare for the reflex save, making it much easier to pass, and there are a couple forms of out-of-combat healing at this level that will make the damage A-OK anyway.

Sorcerer 1/Half-Dragon 2 breathes summon monster 1 on his party...

...or silent image...

...or planar binding, since, y'know, you didn't say what casting time the spell had to have before it could be channeled..

...or wish...?

These scenarios may seem very strange, but that's my point. None of these weird possibilities are explained because you've placed next to no restrictions on the type of spell you can use.

Also, I don't know what a metamagic rod of chain spell costs, but a character who invests a little bit of thought into this can throw a bunch of slapstick possibilities at the GM.

Again, it doesn't have to be overpowered or underpowered to screw things up. Even if none of the options the player creates are effective, a lot of them are really screwy and the game will grind to a halt as the GM tries to process the wide array of shenanigans thrown at him. This will happen every time the player channels a new spell.

I only suggest that you put a bit more work into clarifying the ability and placing restrictions that will allow it work like you intend, as well as perhaps lowering the potential power output to better match the investment, or adjust the investment.

I also still dislike burning 2 spells, mostly because it feels sloppy, but maybe others will disagree.


Having spoken more fully on breath channeling in the spoiler, I will move on to form of the dragon and adaptation:

-Form of the Dragon: Dragon skin and Dragon Arsenal are the only decent abilities here. The rest are terrible for full casters but OK for neglected gishes like the Duskblade (who received no support ever). Since you tied it all into spell-level sacrificed, and people treasure spells, the only spells they will be willing to sacrifice will not give adequate benefit. I'll go over each one:

Dragon skin - Since free actions must be taken on your turn unless otherwise noted, the greatest potential of this ability is negated (immediate DR/SR). That said, the SR can still be worth it occasionally because it basically gives a caster of equivalent level a 50% chance to fizzle against you. The DR won't really ever be that valuable, but it's a free kicker on the SR, so it's OK.

Dragon eyes - Just never worth it for the spell sacrificed. Actual spells will almost always have a better solution than this, and you will almost always have those spells prepared because they're so useful. A Duskblade might use this, but by the time they can sacrifice a spell that grants a useful range of blindsight hopefully the full caster in their party will have removed the need.

Dragon Strength - This is really terrible. It should be twice the spell level burned, otherwise I can't think of a level at which this would be useful. Seriously, spell level = strength bonus is so worthless I think you must have intended 2x spell level and just made a mistake.

Dragon Hide - An absolutely miserable bonus to AC that is completely trounced by all levels of spells that would be sacrificed. Sacrificing a level 1 spell gets you +1 natural armor, which on top of being horrible, is a lot worse than casting shield, a 1st level spell.

Dragon Arsenal - The other decent one. Gaining a natural weapon could often be worth the 2nd or 3rd lvl spell lost. The higher levels are really really worthless though, and never worth the power of a same-level spell.

The problem with almost all of the forms of the dragon is that they are cruelly tied only to spell level with no other means of scaling. Even spells scale past their level. Most of them should grant double the bonus that they do, and I think they could all use a serious second look. It seems like you slapped that ability on the end without really thinking about it much.

Onto adaptation. Before I critique the adaptation section, I'd like to add the disclaimer that the WotC adaptations were rarely so thorough and other monster classes in this thread don't have the same level of "if you prefer, [this]." I already applauded the addition of the adaptation section, so rather than applaud it a second time, think of this disclaimer as a "you really don't have to worry about this part.":

-Psionic suffers the same problems as the base version.

-The language for the sublime way adaptation could be more clear, but after a couple readings it seems to do what I would want it to do, and I get the impression you were just avoiding a direct lift from ToB. You might also want to add something that grants specific benefits when in one of your new stances or using your new maneuvers, because with no discipline to call their own your maneuvers actually lose some key advantages. Onto the maneuvers:

Breath Weapon Orb is good, feels about right for a 1st level maneuver.

Second Wind isn't bad, as Nine said you'd have to be focusing on your breath weapon as a shtick to really benefit, but it's good to have this around should you go that route. If not, there are of course other 2nd level maneuvers.

Burning Brand should be renamed and should do full breath weapon damage. You're standing amongst maneuvers like Death Mark, which will beat your damage for many levels to come. Not to mention all the other 3rd level gems that beat this easily. You're making the right move by making your maneuvers a new choice rather than a given, but you should try to keep them at least as powerful as similar abilities.

Presence of the Dragon should have either offer a save or affect creatures based on their HD, not both. Also completely owning things with half your HD is hardly worth a stance, although I suppose this one gains points for being a 4th level stance (no such thing in ToB), which eliminates one of those frustrating levels where you gain a new stance but can't actually pick a new stance yet.

As Nine said, you need to clarify the area of effect on Bodily Exhalation. Also a lot of these could use cooler names. What's wrong with "Awesome Emanation?" My first choice was "Radiates Awesome," but I suppose that's a little goofy. Also make it clear what happens when the half-dragon moves by people in this stance. It could be argued that since he's a flaming dude he never provokes AoOs (AoOs don't happen when you're presenting a credible threat).

Burning Charge won't be worth a full round action by the time you get it. Why not breathe, charge, and then breathe again on the guy, neither time triggering the cooldown of your breath weapon?

Wings of Grandiosity is very weak for a 7th level maneuver, and also needs its range more clearly specified. It's more like a 2nd level maneuver.

I'm in agreement with Nine about Spinning Dragon Holocaust. It's cool to Alpha Strike people and all, but the cooldown is ridiculous. I'm also not 100% clear on what the "apex" of the breath weapon is.

Apotheosis is cool :smallsmile:, breaks the trend of most boosts being swift actions though.

That concludes my evaluation of the Sublime way adaptation


-Mundane is kinda all over the place. I always liked Powerful build, and the SLA option is quite good. Maybe throw the extra natural attacks all into one ability.

TheGeckoKing
2011-03-23, 11:11 AM
Eldritch ScytherVivisector


Vivisector: I'm a tad worried about a level 1 vivisector. You get 18 strength, that's 2 attacks at a total average of 17 damage. The only thing comparable would be... a human fighter with a flaw to get TWF, oversized TWF, 2 longswords and weapon focus in each... and then he's still doing an average of 2 less damage (from 1/2 str mod instead of full str mod on the offhand). It's not exactly game breaking, but it is a little off. Why not start at 1d6 and then scale up from there?
Scaling. Done.
Vivisection... is a little boring, really, for an ability that involves extracting a still living creature's organs. Also, while it starts out OK, it quickly becomes a kindof weak ability.
I'm not sure what to do, but i'll try making the damage multiplier scale.
Scalpel claws: the addenda at the end is now irrelevant.
Whoops.
Tough Shell: The natural armor bonus is weird. Just... tie it to Con and put it on the 1st level body ability.
Meh.
Appendix... um... whuh?
:smallbiggrin:
The DR is a little lame. 1/2 HD wouldn't be overdoing it. In fact, equal to HD wouldn't be overdoing it, considering the low duration.
No problem then.
Blood: I think it would be better if it could just use this one once. Kindof spammable.
One use only is a bit rubbish, isn't it? It's not puking up all the blood at once.
Beyond that, it looks pretty balanced... but like vivisection, I think you could do a lot more with it. This thing, by all rights, should be really, really nasty, and I don't think it really lives up to its full potential. For example, I'd personally switch out the poison for a paralytic venom that leaves enemies stable and easy to vivisect- and that's really just off the top of my head. Oh, and a fear effect when vivisecting- that too.
Paralytic Venom makes sense (Mind you, the Str damage is what the original creature normally has).
Beyond that, not much of it scales well. Why can't my 15 HD vivisector just snatch out someone's still beating heart and gobble it up, killing them and freaking their friends right the **** out?
At 8HD, they can paralyze a target with one strike (albeit at a delay), and at 15HD..........I dunno. Save or Die it is, I guess.


God-Killing Moodstone (Pandorym)

I'll try to give you some Pandorym feedback. Keep in mind that this would be only the second critique I've ever done, so take my advice with many grains of salt.
No problem.


First, there are no ability score upgrades on this class. Those tend to be kinda important. I'd say Charisma and (maybe) Constitution.
Honestly? I don't feel very good giving it to a manifester. Only Int and Wis makes sense, and the class is MAD enough as it is.
BAB is pathetic and strictly worse than the psion/wizard. Poor thing will never hit anything! Bump it up to at least 1/2 BAB.
1/2 BAB it is. I know I keep getting it in the neck for that.
No natural armor either? For shame! Although natural armor might not make as much sense in this situation. Maybe give it a deflection bonus equal to its Cha.
It can wear armor (In a floaty telekinesis kinda way), so I don't see the point. Too much extra stuff to balance.
Abilities not labeled (Ex), (Su), or (Sp). For some reason, this really bothers me.
Reeeeeeally? I've indicated (Su) unless indicated, so maybe when it goes on the list, but I'm just lazy, so ignore me. :smalltongue:
Regarding Manifestation of Will, it says to pick 3 disciplines and you can only manifest from those. Does that include the psion-only discipline powers, or just the powers from the main psion/wilder list? If the former, you might want to bump it down to 2 disciplines at most. Even then, it's still akin to giving a wizard multiple specializations, so tread with caution.

You choose the powers known from the psion power list (This does not include Discipline Specific Lists).
:smallbiggrin:
Powers known per level seems to be somewhere between psion and psychic warrior. It's probably a good amount if it can use the discipline-specific powers.
It can't, but it has other stuff, so it'll be fine.
The save on Faint Sign of Binding should follow normal save progression: 10 + 1/2 HD + ability mod. Otherwise, nice and flavorful.
Ah, that's just me being lazy. Good catch.
The limbs on Corporealize shouldn't have a duration. When you first get the ability, as written, you would only get a minimum of 7 X Int rounds worth of holding things, and that's only if you don't use PP for anything else. That translates to just under three minutes. There's already enough penalty for manifesting and using the limbs, it doesn't need a duration tacked on to it as well, in my opinion.
I see your point. Will rectify.
I'd say that you should only get one attack when using Mental Smog. There should be some trade-off or it would make using BAB mostly meaningless.
Power Points. Pandorym always pays in Power Points.
Magical Buffer and Red Rage are fine at a glance.
Yay!
9th level is probably about right to gain incorporeality. Does Pandorym lose its Strength score? If so, what replaces it to hit?
Oh no. I can't give it Cha or Int (because of the SAD).......Str to hit regardless it is, sadly. :smallfrown:. Wait! PSIONICS! Yay Psionics! They can be Focused for it!
Orange Mind Acid has a typo. The ability is gained at 10th level and does 1 point of Wisdom drain. It then goes on to say at 10th level, it does 2 points of Wisdom damage. There's something wrong here that really needs to be fixed.
Meh. Fixed.
Moderate Sign of Binding is a bit too narrow to be worth a level all on its own. Still a nice ability, though.
I........can fix this.
Lightning Speed isn't too powerful at 12th level. Good.
Gooooooood.
Again, Psionic Leech is too narrow of an ability to stand on its own. Maybe make it apply to casters somehow, or add another minor ability at 13th level. Also, they manifest "powers", not "spells".
Will Rectify.
Green Glow: Location of Sympathy spell?
Riiiiiight here. (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Sympathy)
Strong Sign of Binding: Again, narrow, but not as much as the other abilities. Again, consider widening the focus or adding some other ability at 15th level.
I'll do a general ability that'll scale with the abilities you've mentioned.
Turquoise Tyrant, Anathematic Secrecy, and Indigo Insanity are fine.
Yay!
Psionic Vortex: Still a little narrow, but it has a benefit that directly helps the player, so I'll let this one slide. On the table, it's still called Psionic Black Hole, though. Might want to change that.
Typo fixed.
I really like Purple Punishment. This is the kind of flavorful, over-the-top ability that defines what a capstone should be to me.
Yay!
Overwhelming Sign of Binding is a little ambiguous. Does it also apply on the Material and Transitive Planes?
Yes, yes it does.



On to Creature of Annihilation:

...Actually, I really don't have any problems with the prestige. Everything is so crazy at epic levels that that you could put anything and it wouldn't make much difference.

As long as it's cool and not easily exploitable, I deem it to be good. You have not brought this up, so for now I deem it to be good. Gooooooooood.

Replies in bold, thanks for reviewing, and i'm off to do......stuff.
Will respond to the review of Pandorym momentarily.
And that's my response. Thanks to both of ya.

Benly
2011-03-23, 11:26 AM
Get this. Nothing, anywhere, says that you have to take Half Dragon before level 18.


Wait, so we're only talking about the power boost to actual level 19+ sorcerers?

I mean, not to sound rude, but who actually frigging cares? I guess it's nice for the couple of seconds before they shapechange into an actual dragon and render most of it moot. Also, not sure that -1 9th-level slot is "clearly superior", for pretty much that reason.

NineThePuma
2011-03-23, 11:38 AM
No, it's still useful at low levels, just noting the whole "Oh, I have lost a spell level! Woe is me!" is a really poor argument against what amounts to a free Shaped/Chained spell. "Hey, look! I just managed to charm everyone of those goblins in that mob with two spells!" (Level 3, that he does it, BTW. Charm every single creature that is in a 20' cone. He can do this 3 times per day.)

Or he can cause them to become Frightened and run away screaming for a couple rounds. Or deal 1d6+1 Strength Damage to every creature. <__<

This is ALL just level 1 spells, that he can do this to a MINIMUM of twice per day. Heck, he could also use this ability to buff people, and give as many people as he wants Enlarge Person, or Reduce Person, or... Seriously, the list goes on and on.

Gorgondantess
2011-03-23, 12:33 PM
Because you have no non-dragon restriction, and getting +1 Str or +1 con every level isn't so bad, neither is getting Con mod natural armor, so people can take your half-dragon class REPEATEDLY?

It's not "OMGborken!" It's just silly, and if you like leaving backdoors for shenanigans then be my guest, but just as everyone else inserts personal preference into their critiques so will I. I tend to want to take my character - and the other characters in the party - seriously. You can have a fun and humor without having five halves of different dragons in you.
First of all, this technically isn't a template, it's a PrC, and you can't take a PrC twice. And I'm not going to say no to a Half-Red Bronze.


Yes, except it doesn't do anything for balance. 2 more skill points per level doesn't hurt anyone, it just lets them make a more interesting character who is has choices for being useful outside of combat.
It's not so much balance but perceived balance. If I were to make the chassis too good a lot of less knowledgeable people would be saying OMGWTFBBQOP! Y'know, the kind of people who think ToB and psionics are OP but still allow wizards and that melee shouldn't have nice things. Pretending they don't exist won't stop the problem.:smalltongue:
And, again, it's a 2 level class. Most people who take it will start with sorcerer, take the 2 levels and then move onto spellsword, abjurant champion, swiftblade, eldritch knight, etc- all of whom have 2+int mod skill points per level. If I were to up it to 4, yahoo, they'd have one skill with 4 ranks in it while all the other skills are going to be maxed out.


Burning two spells slots for "a few pretty potent combinations" sounds a lot like the way half dragon breath weapons are frequently viewed. "I'll never use it in a serious fight, but hey, it's kinda fun every now and then."
Keep in mind that I generally design with a "fun first" frame of mind.


Like I said, the cost for both breath channeling abilities should not be the same. You can make the one cost an extra spell, but the other should cost a use of the breath weapon. Breath weapon < spells. So no one who knows what they're doing is going to burn a spell to add breath weapon damage, especially considering your breath weapon damage is inferior to evocation spells of the same level, so it's not even worth burning an evocation spell unless you're sure you're going to die next turn.
Hmmmm...
Y'know what, you're right, you have a very valid point there. So noted, and I will change it.

What happens when...


Duskblade 1/Half-Dragon 2 (ECL 3) breathes resist energy on his party on the same energy type as his breath weapon? Do they get the benefits of the spell or the damage of the breath weapon first? Also they can prepare for the reflex save, making it much easier to pass, and there are a couple forms of out-of-combat healing at this level that will make the damage A-OK anyway.
Well, the thing is that spell breath does not add damage. Just area. So, the party would get resist energy.


Sorcerer 1/Half-Dragon 2 breathes summon monster 1 on his party...

...or silent image...

...or planar binding, since, y'know, you didn't say what casting time the spell had to have before it could be channeled..

...or wish...?
Again, good points, which will be edited. I believe... hmmm... I'll change it to that it only works with spells with an area or spells with a target. How's that sound? I'm really slapping myself for not realizing this, though. Thanks for pointing it out.

[/SPOILER]

Having spoken more fully on breath channeling in the spoiler, I will move on to form of the dragon and adaptation:


Form of the Dragon: Dragon skin and Dragon Arsenal are the only decent abilities here. The rest are terrible for full casters but OK for neglected gishes like the Duskblade (who received no support ever). Since you tied it all into spell-level sacrificed, and people treasure spells, the only spells they will be willing to sacrifice will not give adequate benefit. I'll go over each one:
Consider these 2 things: first, this isn't only for sorcerers. It works for warmages, beguilers, duskblades, favored souls, dread necromancers, etc. While probably 60% or more of the people who take it will be sorcerers, it wouldn't be nice to disregard that 40% or so.
Second of all, sorcerers have a very limited spell list. So, while blindsense may not be AWESOME... well, it beats having to blow a spells known on see invisibility, eh?
The idea here was that there were a lot of weak abilities here, but with a free action cost not killing the action economy, each one will definitely see some use. It's less powerful abilities and more adding some much needed versatility to the Sorcerer. In fact, for many of them it was rather intentional they were kindof weak: the class is already very powerful, and I didn't want to add raw power but versatility.


Dragon skin - Since free actions must be taken on your turn unless otherwise noted, the greatest potential of this ability is negated (immediate DR/SR). That said, the SR can still be worth it occasionally because it basically gives a caster of equivalent level a 50% chance to fizzle against you. The DR won't really ever be that valuable, but it's a free kicker on the SR, so it's OK.
Sure it will. Granted, it won't be valuable all the time, but what about when you're fighting an iron golem? A dire animal? A frost giant grunt? And when you are, you'll have the perfect answer to those things.


Dragon eyes - Just never worth it for the spell sacrificed. Actual spells will almost always have a better solution than this, and you will almost always have those spells prepared because they're so useful. A Duskblade might use this, but by the time they can sacrifice a spell that grants a useful range of blindsight hopefully the full caster in their party will have removed the need.
Have those spells prepared? What preparation? Anyways, like I said, it obliviates the need to actually learn some of those spells.


Dragon Strength/Dragon Hide
I'll consider it. I'm thinking of maybe combining the two, actually. Though, I'll note: bull's strength offers a +4 enhancement bonus as a level 2 spell. Let's say you have easy metamagic: quicken, you can get it as a 5th level spell as a swift action. This costs a free action as opposed to swift, has a higher bonus at 5th level and stacks with everything.


The other decent one. Gaining a natural weapon could often be worth the 2nd or 3rd lvl spell lost. The higher levels are really really worthless though, and never worth the power of a same-level spell.
Perhaps. Though...
Lemme make a guess. Are you more of a wizard player, or more of a sorcerer player? I'm guessing you're more of a wizard player. Wizard players love to increase, and hold onto, their spell slots See, I'm a sorcerer player, and well... goddammit, there's just too many of them! With a high charisma bonus you'll be packing a massive amount, and half of the time the massive amounts you have won't even be useful because you didn't pick the right ones for the situation. And then because sorcs are awesome like that you take a bunch of metamagic feats and only ever use your top 2 spell levels anyways! So I like giving a decent use to those 3rd & 4th level spells slots in the 12th level sorcerer's arsenal. And the 5th & 6th level spell slots in the 16th level sorcerer's arsenal. etc.


The problem with almost all of the forms of the dragon is that they are cruelly tied only to spell level with no other means of scaling. Even spells scale past their level. Most of them should grant double the bonus that they do, and I think they could all use a serious second look. It seems like you slapped that ability on the end without really thinking about it much.
Mayhaps... I'll look into it.
Don't you just love cryptic replies?:smallbiggrin:


Burning Brand should be renamed and should do full breath weapon damage. You're standing amongst maneuvers like Death Mark, which will beat your damage for many levels to come. Not to mention all the other 3rd level gems that beat this easily. You're making the right move by making your maneuvers a new choice rather than a given, but you should try to keep them at least as powerful as similar abilities.
Not necessarily... see, with burning brand, you can activate it and then at 6th level make a full attack, adding the breath weapon damage 4 times (2 normal attacks, one claw, one bite) for 6d8 damage. Bam, Death Mark is beaten.


Presence of the Dragon should have either offer a save or affect creatures based on their HD, not both. Also completely owning things with half your HD is hardly worth a stance, although I suppose this one gains points for being a 4th level stance (no such thing in ToB), which eliminates one of those frustrating levels where you gain a new stance but can't actually pick a new stance yet.
Hmmm... I'll look into it.


As Nine said, you need to clarify the area of effect on Bodily Exhalation. Also a lot of these could use cooler names. What's wrong with "Awesome Emanation?" My first choice was "Radiates Awesome," but I suppose that's a little goofy. Also make it clear what happens when the half-dragon moves by people in this stance. It could be argued that since he's a flaming dude he never provokes AoOs (AoOs don't happen when you're presenting a credible threat).
First of all, I suck at making names. True story.
Secondly, it's natural reach. So medium creatures is a 5 foot radius, large creatures is a 10 foot radius, etc. Was this not clear?


Burning Charge won't be worth a full round action by the time you get it. Why not breathe, charge, and then breathe again on the guy, neither time triggering the cooldown of your breath weapon?

Wings of Grandiosity is very weak for a 7th level maneuver, and also needs its range more clearly specified. It's more like a 2nd level maneuver.
Okay, I'll turn them both up to 11.


I'm in agreement with Nine about Spinning Dragon Holocaust. It's cool to Alpha Strike people and all, but the cooldown is ridiculous. I'm also not 100% clear on what the "apex" of the breath weapon is.
Apex: the tip, point, or vertex; summit. The very end.


Apotheosis is cool :smallsmile:, breaks the trend of most boosts being swift actions though.
That's so it couldn't be spammed. Make it short n' sweet.


-Mundane is kinda all over the place. I always liked Powerful build, and the SLA option is quite good. Maybe throw the extra natural attacks all into one ability.
Will do. And yes, it is all over the place: it's a throwaway. Just for the slouching mongrels who choose neither casting, nor psionics, nor ToB, nor whatever more adaptations I make before I finish, nor making their own.

Anyways, thanks for the review! It was extraordinarily helpful and thorough.:smallsmile:
EDIT: and changed, conservatively.

NineThePuma
2011-03-23, 02:28 PM
-Withdrawn-

Mystic Muse
2011-03-23, 02:31 PM
leap says level, not hit dice.

NineThePuma
2011-03-23, 02:33 PM
AND THAT IS WHAT I GET FOR BEING UNABLE TO SLEEP.

(Already fixed it)

Gorgondantess
2011-03-23, 02:34 PM
Nine... you're supposed to ask before posting a second creature while your first is unfinished... AND you're supposed to ask before doing a revision of an old creature. -_-

NineThePuma
2011-03-23, 02:39 PM
Whoops. Someone posting a repeat must have made me treat mine as no longer important.

[unrepentant]

Gorgondantess
2011-03-23, 02:43 PM
Whoops. Someone posting a repeat must have made me treat mine as no longer important.

[unrepentant]

I asked you if it'd be cool for me to repost the Half-Dragon. You said yes.

Cogidubnus
2011-03-23, 02:57 PM
Whoops. Someone posting a repeat must have made me treat mine as no longer important.

[unrepentant]

Dude, your attitude is AWFUL.

Anyway, Half-Dragon Critique: (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10609763&postcount=1399)

First off, I like the adaptations. It means you can be a half-dragon whatever your role, without giving them every power out there (which would be OP, obviously). It could still do with a tag like (Alternative Class Features) to make it really obviously crunch.

Breath Weapon: Is it worth giving a free metabreath feat every, say, 6 HD? Just to add some flexibility.

Breath Channelling: Although Admixture deals less damage than casting the spell twice, it improves your action economy, so it does make blasting more useful. Spell Breath does need a limit on which spells you can use though (Wish is still viable, for example).

Form of the Dragon: I like the current abilities, but is it worth adding one that helps spellcasting, like a CL increase?

Ed: Thri-Keen. All I've checked so far is you misspell Monstrous.

NineThePuma
2011-03-23, 02:57 PM
Our visions are apparently completely incompatible. One or the other is going to make it in, and my latest edit was pretty comprehensive, but potentially overpowering. Since yours would break new ground and set a precedent (and is much more adaptable than mine) the odds go in your favor.

I can recycle mine into a PrC or something. Yours? Not so much.

TheGeckoKing
2011-03-23, 03:12 PM
Two things with the Thri-Kreen, just because I feel like being useful, and it's been posted so we might as well replace the old messy Thri-Kreen on the list.


You had better say they can take Multiattack/Multiweapon Fighting etc etc, unless you don't want them to. Which would be weird. If your leery about it, delay the four armed fighting until 3 HD, or make them meet certain prerequisites like 18 Dex and 2HD, or something.

Psionic Version. It requires it. I say make a 1 level PRC that gives it all the PLA's and power point and such and so forth, but that's me.


Other than that, it seems well-made enough.

Also, a request. If your going to be "chatting" the way you are, could you please take them to PM's, so you don't clog the thread? Please?

NineThePuma
2011-03-23, 03:20 PM
Two things with the Thri-Kreen, just because I feel like being useful, and it's been posted so we might as well replace the old messy Thri-Kreen on the list.


You had better say they can take Multiattack/Multiweapon Fighting etc etc, unless you don't want them to. Which would be weird. If your leery about it, delay the four armed fighting until 3 HD, or make them meet certain prerequisites like 18 Dex and 2HD, or something.
Good point, I will say that they have a ton of arms.
Psionic Version. It requires it. I say make a 1 level PRC that gives it all the PLA's and power point and such and so forth, but that's me.
The Psionic Version would... actually, it has the same CR as the base creature. =/ Seriously, there's not much I can do there.


Other than that, it seems well-made enough.

Also, a request. If your going to be "chatting" the way you are, could you please take them to PM's, so you don't clog the thread? Please?

*shrug* Whatev floats yo boat, man. Whatev floats yo boat.Standard response to a critique.

Hyudra
2011-03-23, 03:52 PM
Vivisector (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10219990&postcount=129)
I said I'd comment on changes you made, but even with the edits on 03-16-2011, you didn't detail anything in the changelog, so I don't know what to comment on.
Gorgon's comments are on target.

Razor Boar (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10227868&postcount=139)
Don't love the piles of energy resistance, personally.
You state in changelog you split resilience into 3 abilities. I note 2. Resilience and Greater Resilience.
Mounting feels weird and kind of unnecessary.

Ettercap (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10227868&postcount=139)
Huge picture is huge. I told you not to use it without cropping. I linked a cropped version a few pages back. Use that.
Why have a 50% chance to poison? It's awkward to flip that coin or roll that d100 every time you use the thing.
"an additional -1 at five HD and for every 5 HD beyond that." - use of five vs. '5' is awkward. Technically, it should be the other way around.
The attack bonus penalty is really rather mild, especially considering your poison is pretty unreliable (Assuming enemies have a 50% chance to pass or fail their save, figure you've got a low base chance to hit (less than full BAB, no Str bonus), a 50% chance that they'll make their save, and then only a 50% chance the poison will work. For your trouble you get... some ability damage and a tiny penalty to attacks.
More clarification needed on the size advancement thing. Let me try:
Spider Companion: At third level, an Ettercap gains a medium monstrous hunting or web-spinning spider as an animal companion. An Ettercap's effective druid level is its HD-3.

Further, the Ettercap gains the ability to advance its spider companion by one size category. By doing so, the Ettercap counts its effective druid level as being 4 lower for the purposes of benefits granted to its spider companion. A spider companion that would be advanced beyond colossal becomes a Colossal+ Devastation Vermin instead.

Aboleth (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10367328&postcount=473)
"An Aboleth of 4th level and higher is constantly surrounded with a viscous cloud of mucus roughly 5ft thick, which grows to 5ft in any large body of water" - read that sentence.

Chuul (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10414321&postcount=585)
Spelling error: "Drak master".
The list of abilities in the table is messy. As a rule, stat bonuses are last. Having '+1 origin' after the stat bonuses is confusing.
I still have reservations about several abilities:
Devour faith. You get unlimited Dispel Magics vs. divine spells & make divine casters lose their best prepared spells. Maybe if it caused the victim to lose their lowest level of prepared spells, not counting orisons? Simultaneously give it the ability to drain (a smaller number of) SLAs from creatures that have divine spells as SLAs? Celestials, lammasu, etc? Give a # of uses per day of dispel magic? Something like:
[indent]The Chuul gains the ability to cast dispel magic once a day per three HD, targeting divine spells only. Further, any divine spellcaster grappled by the Chuul loses a number of prepared spells equal to the Chuul's Cha mod or half the spells that caster has available for that spell level, whichever is more. This effect causes the victim to lose spells starting with their 1st level spells and progresses to the next highest level when there are no more spells to drain at the given spell level. The Chuul regains 2hp for every spell level drained.
Avatar: So at 7th level you're delivering two attacks, each tacking on a save or lose effect. I don't like the easily applied panicked condition. Further, this is confusing: "Any creature struck by one of the chuul's natural attacks must make a will save DC 10+½HD+wis modifier or be panicked for 1d4+2 rounds. Those who fail their saves are instead shaken for one round." - if it's 'instead', why even get into the panicked bit?
Secondary traits: It still feels like far too much packed into a single level 7 ability. At level 7 you'd be getting:
Your tentacles force a save or be paralyzed.
Every hit you deliver with your big claw forces a save or be dazed (lose a turn)
Your one claw grows from 2d6 + ½ Str damage to 4d6 + 1.5x Str damage, and gets bigger bonuses from power attack.
You gain blindsight out to 60'.
You gain a massive bonus to hide checks (+35% success chance, basically, with +5% success for every HD after 7th)
It's too much, and it doesn't all scale. I strongly recommend going over the creature and spacing out the benefits of various abilities over HD 1-20. Don't be in such a rush to cram everything in there.

Phantom (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10461724&postcount=881)
It is confusing because of how it works for all other cases, but be aware: "it's" means either 'it is' or 'it has'. Ergo, stating "a phantom becomes capable of moving between it's corporeal and incorporeal self with but a moment's thought" really means "a phantom becomes capable of moving between it has corporeal and incorporeal self with but a moment's thought". Personal pet peeve.
The incorporeality scaling is still really... long. Assume that I'm an 8th level PC. My highest stat mod is going to be something in the neighborhood of 5. ½ that is still 2.5 minutes a day... more than enough to encompass 4 encounters... which raises the question of why one has the limit in the first place. It's also just a really awkward way of going about it. Why not just 1 round a day per X HD?

Justice Archon (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10474880&postcount=941)
I forgot to do so before, did it now. Gave Justice Archon my vote on the front page.

Coure Eladrin (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=10480332#post10480332)
It strikes me that 'alternate form' is misleading. Rename ability?
As with Justice Archon, I forgot I'd recommended this for Gorgon to review. Put my vote on front page.

Garngrath (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10576259&postcount=1320)
Misspelling: Monster Manuel.
Table is aching for proper formatting. See the link in the first post of the thread for a format you can copy (you're mainly missing table=head and bolding for the various saves.)
Rather than have 'item restrictions', state in Garngrath Body that it lacks fine manipulation.
Proficiencies in general need more complete sentences.
(Min 1) isn't necessary under skills.
"The garngrath can fire it's crystal horn" - its.
"as a swift action, but only once per turn." - redundant. Swift is always once a turn.
State the range/coverage of the prismatic horn effect
Outline the DC properly. (DC 10 + ½ HD + Wis mod)
Ok, so I'm 3 levels in and I'm noting a distinct lack of active abilities. Basically put, you're making attack routines and aiming a very low damage spray every few rounds. There's no strategy involved, no decision of using one ability over another, etc.
"Also at 4th level, the garngrath begins to shrug off physical injury at increasing speeds." - awkward wording.
Resonance Shield - You're now offering a sizable bonus to AC. Consider that you're getting 2x Con to AC and Con with pretty much every level in the class. As such, by 10th level, you're getting a +16 Con from your class features alone. Boost that by +4, add an amulet of natural health, bracers of natural armor, and you're practically untouchable. That's without getting into the heavy duty stuff.
Misspelling: Regurigtation
Misspelling: Devistation
Note my policy on spellchecking your work. If I note two errors, I stop my critique there and give the creator a chance to do a spellcheck. I just noted a third.
I'll leave you with a final note for when you're going over your work and making any changes: The Garngrath seems to be built as something of a tank. However, there's too many passive abilities and not enough active (not enough choices for the player to be making in combat). Further, if you're making a monster as a tank, you need to force the enemy to deal with him/it. If the enemy can more or less ignore you and then gang up on you when your teammates are dead, then you're not a good 'tank'. You're just the guy who drags bodies back to the temple for ressurection.

Brass Golem (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10588318&postcount=1361)
"The Brass Golem ase managed to shake off its, but it is still very single-minded." 'ase'?
Misspelling: Aluminium (You probably mean aluminum?)
Misspelling: Juggernaught (You probably mean Juggernaut)
That's three things one would have caught with a spellcheck.

Half-Dragon (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10609763&postcount=1399)
I strongly recommend using the posting template found in the link in the first post. It keeps stuff that much tidier. Just at a glance, I note you've not included the source or stated whether it's a monster class or template (information usually contained under the picture).
And please, for the sake of my poor eyes, use bold for ability names rather than italics. So much clearer, so much prettier, so much less eye strain.
Prerequisites are boring. Ideally, prerequisites will lead a player into the class, as part of making the necessary transition and whatnot.
Prerequisites also feel somewhat off. I encourage and support allowing the spellcaster half-dragon, but your prereqs seem to demand such. While I recognize your alternate options at the bottom may fix this, this information isn't readily apparent and will turn some people off the class as they realize the prereqs don't work for them.
Full BAB is hard to sell, for much the reason you said the gravetouched ghoul couldn't justify such - the creature (or at least, the monster class of the creature) the template is drawn from doesn't necessarily have full BAB, and you can't guarantee the base creature has such either.
Why not normal natural armor stacking as previously established?
Breath weapon heritage:
"Like all breath weapons, those within the area of the half dragon's breath weapon may make a Reflex save DC (10+1/2 HD+Con mod)" - to... halve? Negate? Summon a chicken?
"not very adept at lifting its clumsy hybrid body" - I don't like disparaging remarks like this in a monster it's not suited for. You want to sell your creature/template, not put it down.
"This increases to twice its land speed by 8 HD" - by? That's vague. At?
Ditto for the 12HD bit.
Bonus spells: Doesn't feel particularly draconic to me. Maybe an SLA?
Breath channeling: You need to indent and/or spoiler and/or list that stuff. It looks like you just trailed off, and there's no indicator the two abilities that follow Breath Channeling are subordinate to it.
Breath Weapon Admixture and Spell Breath: neither of these feel particularly draconic to me. I mean, you've got a dragon parent, yes? You're inheriting some of that parent's natural capacity for arcane magic, yes? But you're now getting abilities that are above and beyond what your parent can pull off. Why? How?
Breath Weapon Admixture: You need to specify what spells this applies to and how often it can be used. RAW, I could use scry and burn someone from halfway across the world. And technically I could use magic missile and hit 5 people and make each save or take breath weapon damage. A great deal of clarification is needed.
Spell Breath: "This ability allows the Half-Dragon to "breath out" a spell in place of its breath weapon." - breathe out.
Others raised concerns with spell breath. I echo them. You really need to clarify what spells work, how often you can do this, and what drawbacks are imposed. It's really, really powerful when you can deliver a 'reflex save or be shivering touched' as an AoE.
Form of the Dragon: This gives you quite a bit of added versatility. They aren't balanced against each other, which was commented on, but I don't know they need to be. I view them as a pool of options to draw from as the situation demands.
Altogether, as a package, I think it's a little too much. You're getting scads of versatility and spell options and you're only losing one spell level. This delays your spell acquisition, but with the mild ability score bonus and the bonus spells, that's dampened somewhat. By contrast, on top of everything else, you're getting a ton of durability, additional ways to apply spells, additional ways to apply breath weapon effects and a way to spend spells you decide you won't need for the day to access from a selection of passive benefits that can and will help you.
Alternate options...
Weaponized Exhalation: What's the range? Could I apply it to a weapon a mile away? 60' away? 10' away? only weapons I'm holding?
Presence of the dragon sucks.
Wings of Grandiosity: The prone plus the cower is a touch over the top. Just cower?
Spinning Dragon Holocaust: Needs clarification, in particular your definition of 'apex'. As I'm interpreting it, I can move a total distance of 30' plus 5'/HD three times with my line attack.

Bloody Initiate
2011-03-23, 03:56 PM
It's not so much balance but perceived balance.

Sadly I'm familiar with this problem.



Well, the thing is that spell breath does not add damage. Just area. So, the party would get resist energy.

I meant: Do they take the breath weapon damage first or do they get the benefits of resist energy first? A 2d8 breath weapon will do 9 points of damage on average, but resist energy grants 10 points of resistance. So do they take damage, or do they not?

I'm not trying to give you an infinite hard time about this, I just really like the idea and want to see it work, so I've focused on that.

As for spells with an area or target, that's a good place to start. Specify what happens with material components and all that headache as well, and figure out whether the the spell or the breath weapon hits first, because having a buffing breath weapon is definitely going to come up.



I'll consider it. I'm thinking of maybe combining the two, actually. Though, I'll note: bull's strength offers a +4 enhancement bonus as a level 2 spell. Let's say you have easy metamagic: quicken, you can get it as a 5th level spell as a swift action. This costs a free action as opposed to swift, has a higher bonus at 5th level and stacks with everything.

Fist of Stone on page 94 of the Spell Compendium is what I think of for +str spells. Although with spell breath available there's no way I'm burning spells to give myself strength, I'm breathing them on my party (And that's a good thing :smallcool:)



Perhaps. Though...
Lemme make a guess. Are you more of a wizard player, or more of a sorcerer player? I'm guessing you're more of a wizard player. Wizard players love to increase, and hold onto, their spell slots See, I'm a sorcerer player, and well... goddammit, there's just too many of them! With a high charisma bonus you'll be packing a massive amount, and half of the time the massive amounts you have won't even be useful because you didn't pick the right ones for the situation. And then because sorcs are awesome like that you take a bunch of metamagic feats and only ever use your top 2 spell levels anyways! So I like giving a decent use to those 3rd & 4th level spells slots in the 12th level sorcerer's arsenal. And the 5th & 6th level spell slots in the 16th level sorcerer's arsenal. etc.

Actually I'm neither a sorcerer nor a wizard player. I've hated D&D casting since before there were numbered editions (It's the x/day, forget-when-you-cast, spellbook-clutching aspect of it that I hate).

However as I think I said I am a Duskblade player, and those spell slots go faster than you think at the levels when it matters, and at the levels when it doesn't matter... it doesn't matter. I've never even gotten to play that high.

If I WERE a sorcerer or wizard player though, I'm sure I would've done my best not to need a lot of the options presented here. No offense, but with as much as I dislike D&D casting, I'd be aiming to dramatically reduce the amount of displeasure I take in it, and that means optimizing the hell out of myself.





Not necessarily... see, with burning brand, you can activate it and then at 6th level make a full attack, adding the breath weapon damage 4 times (2 normal attacks, one claw, one bite) for 6d8 damage. Bam, Death Mark is beaten.

I failed my crunch test there. I see now.



First of all, I suck at making names. True story.
Secondly, it's natural reach. So medium creatures is a 5 foot radius, large creatures is a 10 foot radius, etc. Was this not clear?

It was counting on readers to get your RAI before. I think "threatened squares" was the term you were looking for rather than Reach.



That's so it couldn't be spammed. Make it short n' sweet.

You're level 17...

Spam it.



Anyways, thanks for the review! It was extraordinarily helpful and thorough.:smallsmile:
EDIT: and changed, conservatively.

Glad to help.

Cogidubnus
2011-03-23, 03:57 PM
Brass Golem (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10588318&postcount=1361)
"The Brass Golem ase managed to shake off its, but it is still very single-minded." 'ase'?
Misspelling: Aluminium (You probably mean aluminum?)
Misspelling: Juggernaught (You probably mean Juggernaut)
That's three things one would have caught with a spellcheck.

Actually, none of them are flagged by my Google Chrome spellcheck (although Google is :smallconfused:). Aluminium is the English (and original) spelling, Juggernaught is also the English spelling. I can switch them to American if you really want, but it will hurt my soul...

I'll fix the ase, that's just an unfortunate typo.

NineThePuma
2011-03-23, 04:15 PM
The Half-Dragon (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10494357&postcount=1145) has been updated.

Just thought I'd restate this, since no one actually said anything about it (despite people apparently deciding that I'm an incredibly hostile person. Which I don't quite get, but oh well.)

Scio
2011-03-23, 04:15 PM
Alright, I implemented Hyudra's suggestions for the Grick. I'll make sure to fix the Ettercap right after the next batch review just to be annoying. So yeah.

TheGeckoKing
2011-03-23, 04:19 PM
Vivisector (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10219990&postcount=129)
I said I'd comment on changes you made, but even with the edits on 03-16-2011, you didn't detail anything in the changelog, so I don't know what to comment on.
Gorgon's comments are on target.
Wait, what? I've responded to Gorgon's comments. And I've made edits, actually.

Aboleth (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10367328&postcount=473)
"An Aboleth of 4th level and higher is constantly surrounded with a viscous cloud of mucus roughly 5ft thick, which grows to 5ft in any large body of water" - read that sentence.
15.

Replies in bold, yada yada.

Cogidubnus
2011-03-23, 04:43 PM
Just thought I'd restate this, since no one actually said anything about it (despite people apparently deciding that I'm an incredibly hostile person. Which I don't quite get, but oh well.)

Not incredibly hostile so much as...not very polite.

Puma's Half-Dragon (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10494357&postcount=1145): Dragon Dance still refers to Whirling Frenzy in the text, I assume you copied and pasted it?
Resilience could simply be written as "gains DR/Magic equal to 3+HD.
Heritage Benefits are interesting. Firstly, the text says Cone of Repulsion is the Brass dragon's, while the table bronze.
Also, Brass is a bit limited. Bardic Knowledge isn't great, and particularly at high levels Sleep effects tend to be stopped by immunities. Same goes for Bronze's Repulsion actually - fear effects are pretty often ignored.

NineThePuma
2011-03-23, 04:53 PM
Not incredibly hostile so much as...not very polite.

Puma's Half-Dragon (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10494357&postcount=1145): Dragon Dance still refers to Whirling Frenzy in the text, I assume you copied and pasted it?
No, actually, it's somewhat different and all the various abilities are weakened, but I will admit to haveing copy-pasta'd it.
Resilience could simply be written as "gains DR/Magic equal to 3+HD.
Done.
Heritage Benefits are interesting. Firstly, the text says Cone of Repulsion is the Brass dragon's, while the table bronze.
Oops
Also, Brass is a bit limited. Bardic Knowledge isn't great, and particularly at high levels Sleep effects tend to be stopped by immunities. Same goes for Bronze's Repulsion actually - fear effects are pretty often ignored.
Actually, that's a compulsion effect. Still pretty often ignored, but its not a fear effect. Brass's Ancestral Knowledge is inspired by it getting Knowledge Domain spells on its Normally Sorcerer casting list. I've tweaked it slightly and hopefully it's more sexy.

I speak my mind. Is that so wrong? If Gorgon decides that I hurt his feelings, I'll remember not to let him anywhere near the more rough and tumble places that I grew up in.

Lyndworm
2011-03-23, 04:54 PM
I speak my mind. Is that so wrong? If Gorgon decides that I hurt his feelings, I'll remember not to let him anywhere near the more rough and tumble places that I grew up in.

The truth might hurt occasionally, but there's no law that says it has to be rude about it.

Hyudra
2011-03-23, 04:57 PM
Not incredibly hostile so much as...not very polite.

Pretty much this. It's the disrespect more than the hostility that stands out (though the latter isn't endearing). The rejection of general thread procedure and the [unrepentant] reaction when such was pointed out just grates, and doesn't encourage my taking the time out of my day to do a comprehensive read-through and review of a monster class/template.

I'll stress, though, that the reason I didn't review Puma's half-dragon is because at the time I started my critique, it hadn't been updated in the past week (that is, since I did my last critique).

NineThePuma
2011-03-23, 05:06 PM
The rudest thing I've done (before Gorgon decided to say that I was rude, which has always been the point at which I stop trying to be polite) was call him out on the weirdest pic I've ever seen. Really, it has FUR.

If Gorgon is going to get aggravated over what amounts to a comment about questionable taste in art, and turn away from a review, then I'm going to treat him like his skin is made of wet kleenex.

After that, I've been completely honest about how I view his class. Yes, theoretically, the class is good, but it isn't a half dragon, it's a two level PrC for a Gish build. The alternates need serious work and balancing. To me, it feels like he posted four classes, only two of which are complete. And I call him on it. Repeatedly.

The Antigamer
2011-03-23, 05:09 PM
The rudest thing I've done (before Gorgon decided to say that I was rude, which has always been the point at which I stop trying to be polite) was call him out on the weirdest pic I've ever seen. Really, it has FUR.

After that, I've been completely honest about how I view his class. Yes, theoretically, the class is good, but it isn't a half dragon, it's a two level PrC for a Gish build.

I don't see anything wrong with the image, I rather like it...
I mean, half-dragons can have hair just fine.

Cogidubnus
2011-03-23, 05:11 PM
The rudest thing I've done (before Gorgon decided to say that I was rude, which has always been the point at which I stop trying to be polite) was call him out on the weirdest pic I've ever seen. Really, it has FUR.

He added a caption to explain the fur xD

After that, I've been completely honest about how I view his class. Yes, theoretically, the class is good, but it isn't a half dragon, it's a two level PrC for a Gish build.

You have been honest, just not in a very nice or constructive way. By the time Gorgondantess said you'd been rude, you'd said such things as:

stupid gishy build and
something that has NO SUPPORT anywhere in the fluff I can think of, except POSSIBLY the 3.0 Dragon Disciple. Both pretty unfriendly. And we don't always stick to the fluff because it's not always very good for the class. For example, my Brass Golem gets Adaptations. Why should it? The original Golem doesn't even get independent thought.
Also, see the point about thread procedure.

NineThePuma
2011-03-23, 05:18 PM
A: He added said caption WELL after my critique.
B: If you read back a couple pages, at least half a dozen people had expressed a severe dislike of the gishy build. I personally think it's stupid, as it doesn't feel like a half dragon. A half Dragon is a physically powerful bruiser type who HAPPENS to be more logical and have a more forceful personality/be more attractive. I look at the class and see no relation to the original template. Which is what I was trying to emphasize.

Yes, growing beyond the original monster is needed, but when you grow so far beyond it that it no longer even resembles the original in any but the most superficial ways, there's a problem.

On thread procedure: Slipped my mind, honestly. I've come across people who post, like, four monsters in the span of a week.

Cogidubnus
2011-03-23, 05:26 PM
I'm not saying your critique is wrong or unimportant, I'm just saying it's not very friendly. If you said things like that to someone new here we'd probably never hear from them again xD

As a large number of people find your tone unpleasant, could you please try to be a little less gung-ho with the negative adjectives?

Hyudra
2011-03-23, 05:47 PM
On thread procedure: Slipped my mind, honestly. I've come across people who post, like, four monsters in the span of a week.

Here? Not so.

The most prolific monster posters are myself, Geckoking and I think Scio, the latter two have been reprimanded for going overboard in the past, while yours truly tends to get one done or nearly done before getting to the next.

Regardless, it was your response to having the limits and the 'please request before you repost a monster that was done in the past' pointed out that was the problem, not the fact you let thread procedure slip your mind in the first place. The snide remark and the [unrepentant] just, well, it wasn't good.

In any event, Ninethepuma's attitude and actions have kind of derailed the thread this past afternoon. I'm asking that, as Geckoking said before, if you have something to say, please take it to PM. If someone says something to further the discussion I ask you to please not reply to them (this post included) and/or take it to PM if you cannot.

Gorgondantess
2011-03-23, 07:04 PM
I strongly recommend using the posting template found in the link in the first post. It keeps stuff that much tidier. Just at a glance, I note you've not included the source or stated whether it's a monster class or template (information usually contained under the picture).
Right. XD

And please, for the sake of my poor eyes, use bold for ability names rather than italics. So much clearer, so much prettier, so much less eye strain.
*sigh*...

Prerequisites are boring. Ideally, prerequisites will lead a player into the class, as part of making the necessary transition and whatnot.
I'll admit, I've never been good at those. Beyond that, I'm not quite sure what to use.
All in all, I really want to make it easy to qualify for at 2nd level.

Prerequisites also feel somewhat off. I encourage and support allowing the spellcaster half-dragon, but your prereqs seem to demand such. While I recognize your alternate options at the bottom may fix this, this information isn't readily apparent and will turn some people off the class as they realize the prereqs don't work for them.
I'll change it to Adaptations for non-spellcasting dragons. Sound good?

Full BAB is hard to sell, for much the reason you said the gravetouched ghoul couldn't justify such - the creature (or at least, the monster class of the creature) the template is drawn from doesn't necessarily have full BAB, and you can't guarantee the base creature has such either.
...This is true, this is very true. I shall change it.

Why not normal natural armor stacking as previously established?
Right, I need to change that. K.

"Like all breath weapons, those within the area of the half dragon's breath weapon may make a Reflex save DC (10+1/2 HD+Con mod)" - to... halve? Negate? Summon a chicken?
The last one.

"not very adept at lifting its clumsy hybrid body" - I don't like disparaging remarks like this in a monster it's not suited for. You want to sell your creature/template, not put it down.
Fine. No skin off my back.

"This increases to twice its land speed by 8 HD" - by? That's vague. At?
Ditto for the 12HD bit.
At, sure, why not.

Bonus spells: Doesn't feel particularly draconic to me. Maybe an SLA?
Well, I originally wanted to give a 1/day "freebie" on the spell breath and such- just so it would definitely see some use- and then I decided just bonus spells would be a more elegant solution.

Breath channeling: You need to indent and/or spoiler and/or list that stuff. It looks like you just trailed off, and there's no indicator the two abilities that follow Breath Channeling are subordinate to it.
Indentations it shall be.

Breath Weapon Admixture and Spell Breath: neither of these feel particularly draconic to me. I mean, you've got a dragon parent, yes? You're inheriting some of that parent's natural capacity for arcane magic, yes? But you're now getting abilities that are above and beyond what your parent can pull off. Why? How?
I have stated repeatedly the reasons for this, both to you and others. Specifically, that I didn't want to make something that's a dragon-but-lesser, but something that puts the other half of the race on equal priority with the dragon. Specifically, a humanoid's tendency towards versatility and having class levels.

Breath Weapon Admixture: You need to specify what spells this applies to and how often it can be used. RAW, I could use scry and burn someone from halfway across the world. And technically I could use magic missile and hit 5 people and make each save or take breath weapon damage. A great deal of clarification is needed.
No, you couldn't. A target of a scrying is not affected by the scrying. Magic missile, that's fine, technically you could use your breath weapon and hit 5 people.
It can be used as often as the breath weapon allows. Once every 5 rounds.

Spell Breath: "This ability allows the Half-Dragon to "breath out" a spell in place of its breath weapon." - breathe out.
ooooh... good catch.

Others raised concerns with spell breath. I echo them. You really need to clarify what spells work, how often you can do this, and what drawbacks are imposed. It's really, really powerful when you can deliver a 'reflex save or be shivering touched' as an AoE.
That's the intent of the ability. The problem there isn't "shivering touch as an AoE", the problem there is "shivering touch". Consider reflex save or ray of enfeeblement as an AoE, or reflex save or ray of exhaustion as an AoE. Maybe a little powerful, but consider that you're burning 2 spell slots, a full round action and the breath weapon, and the battle will likely be over before you can do it again. It's essentially a per encounter ability.

Form of the Dragon: This gives you quite a bit of added versatility. They aren't balanced against each other, which was commented on, but I don't know they need to be. I view them as a pool of options to draw from as the situation demands.
Pretty much the intent.

Altogether, as a package, I think it's a little too much. You're getting scads of versatility and spell options and you're only losing one spell level. This delays your spell acquisition, but with the mild ability score bonus and the bonus spells, that's dampened somewhat. By contrast, on top of everything else, you're getting a ton of durability, additional ways to apply spells, additional ways to apply breath weapon effects and a way to spend spells you decide you won't need for the day to access from a selection of passive benefits that can and will help you.
Hmmm... okay, I see your point. I'll try toning it down a bit.


Weaponized Exhalation: What's the range? Could I apply it to a weapon a mile away? 60' away? 10' away? only weapons I'm holding?
Right there on the tin: Range: personal.

Presence of the dragon sucks.
Okay, okay, it sucks, fine.

Wings of Grandiosity: The prone plus the cower is a touch over the top. Just cower?
It's a 7th level maneuver.

Spinning Dragon Holocaust: Needs clarification, in particular your definition of 'apex'. As I'm interpreting it, I can move a total distance of 30' plus 5'/HD three times with my line attack.
This is true.


I meant: Do they take the breath weapon damage first or do they get the benefits of resist energy first? A 2d8 breath weapon will do 9 points of damage on average, but resist energy grants 10 points of resistance. So do they take damage, or do they not?
They do not take the breath weapon damage at all. It's just the spell in the area of the breath weapon without the actual breath weapon.


Fist of Stone on page 94 of the Spell Compendium is what I think of for +str spells. Although with spell breath available there's no way I'm burning spells to give myself strength, I'm breathing them on my party (And that's a good thing :smallcool:)
It's one arm, so it wouldn't apply to... pretty much anything the Half-Dragon would be using. One claw, bite, wing, tail, etc.


Actually I'm neither a sorcerer nor a wizard player. I've hated D&D casting since before there were numbered editions (It's the x/day, forget-when-you-cast, spellbook-clutching aspect of it that I hate).
Ah. Don't like vancian magic, eh? As a tangent, may I direct you to this excellent base class (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=42355) by the guy who did our growth tables?


It was counting on readers to get your RAI before. I think "threatened squares" was the term you were looking for rather than Reach.
Nope. Reach. Why would holding a longspear increase the range of your wings?


You're level 17...

Spam it.
Yeah, but there's an action economy cost to spamming it. That was the point there.

Benly
2011-03-23, 07:26 PM
It strikes me that 'alternate form' is misleading. Rename ability?


True, especially since as I recall the normal "Alternate Form" ability is usable as a prerequisite for some things that don't make sense with this ability. Changed to Radiant Form.

Hyudra
2011-03-23, 07:31 PM
Oh, and just putting this out there, but when you guys put up an image for your monster, I strongly recommend you host said image on Imageshack, Photobucket, Tinypic or the like (Tinypic being my host of choice). Just linking to images URLs for others' sites is rude and can have unforeseen consequences, such as the site owner moving/removing the image or (in some extreme cases) catching on that you're linking to stuff hosted on his/her server and replacing the image with something rude or offensive.

In any event, you're mooching off of someone else's server (on top of potentially mooching off of others' artwork) when there's other sites that are ok with you doing so, like the ones I mentioned.

So if the http you're copying into your post isn't referring to an image hosting site or a site you own, consider replacing it with one that does.

Front Page: (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=10123010#post10123010)
Gray Jester moved from abandoned list to unfinished list.
A heads up to Gorgon that Coure Eladrin and Justice Archon have my vote.

Makiru
2011-03-23, 07:50 PM
I fixed the spelling errors, but no matter how many times I try to format the tables, it always turns out weird, and in the exact same way. It seems that there is nothing I can do on this end to fix it, so I apologize.

Hyudra
2011-03-23, 08:00 PM
Drow (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=10473291#post10473291) Changes, March 23rd, 2011:
Reworded Mage caste so it now just lets you append any SLA you have available to any spell of 3rd level or higher. (Before, had a complex method where each SLA was only available for use with spells of a minimum level).

Makiru - consider just copy-pasting the stuff from the template and then filling in the blanks?

Gorgondantess
2011-03-23, 09:28 PM
New thread, to pre-empt the page limit. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=192151)

Please do not post here.

Mods, please do not lock the thread so we can continue to edit & quote material in this thread.