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Duncan_Ruadrik
2011-01-08, 10:07 PM
looking at both the Core Rulebook, and the Advanced Player's Guide, what are (in your humble opinion, or not so humble as the case may be) the best Rogue Talents?

gorfnab
2011-01-09, 12:14 AM
Core Talents
*Core Advanced Talents
#APG Talents
$APG Advanced Talents

Good
Bleeding Attack - extra damage that bypasses DR every round is kinda nice
Trap Spotter - lets your DM search for traps for you
Combat Trick - free feat from a fairly large list
Minor Magic - depending on what you choose this can be extremely useful
Major Magic - see Minor Magic
Slow Reactions - Locks down any build with Combat Reflexes and allows you to attack a target and move away from them in the same round safely
Surprise Attack - slightly situational but if you get a lot of surprise rounds or you're ambushing a lot this could lead to a great deal of damage
*Crippling Strike - with multiple sneak attacks per round this can get very nice
*Dispelling Attack - goodbye buff spells
*Improved Evasion - just as good now as it was in 3.5
*Feat - extra feats are always good
*Skill Mastery - UMD anyone?
#Cunning Trigger - this is potentially hilarious in the right set up
#Distracting Attack - helping your allies hit a target is good
#Quick Trapsmith - this could be very nice with Cunning Trigger
#Sniper's Eye - more useful at high levels then at lower levels saves you from taking Improved Precise Shot
#Survivalist - adds two very useful skills to your class list
$Entanglement of Blades - hello lockdown
$Frugal Trapsmith - This + Quick Trapsmith + Cunning Trigger is very nice
$Stealthy Sniper - good for sniper based builds (see Sniper Goggles, APG page 309)

Okay
Fast Stealth - great if your DM is allowing 3.5 material (hello Darkstalker), if not this may become situational
Surprise Attack - slightly situational but if you get a lot of surprise rounds or you're ambushing a lot this could lead to a great deal of damage
Finesse Rogue - you can take Weapon Finesse in Pathfinder at 1st level with a Rogue normally since they removed the BAB requirement unless you had better feats in mind for first level. Otherwise this could be useful for a ranged based rogue to have as back up in melee. If neither of these is the case then this talent becomes situational
*Opportunist - depending on the build and your party composition this could be okay, otherwise Combat Reflexes might be better for you in melee situations
*Slippery Mind - if your DM is throwing casters with lots of enchantment spells at you then this is good, if not then it becomes situational
#Snap Shot - pretty much always acting first in the surprise round if ranged
#Expert Leaper - useful in dungeons, otherwise situational
#Fast Picks - potential useful, otherwise situational
#Quick Disguise - mostly situational but extremely useful in a pinch
#Swift Poison - can be combined with Lasting Poison and useful if you can get some of the higher DC poisons
#Powerful Sneak - semi useful if not using 3.5 material, if using 3.5 material take the Craven and Deadly Precision feats instead
$Deadly Sneak - see Powerful Sneak
$Fast Tumble - extremely useful in large melees, otherwise becomes situational

Situational at best or just not that useful
Weapon Training - Weapon Focus leave that to fighters unless you're doing a really specific build and your short on feats
Rogue Crawl - only really useful if you're getting tripped often
Stand Up - see Rogue Crawl
Quick Disable - only really useful if you're trying to disable a trap in combat
Resiliency - once per day save your butt and that's about it
*Defensive Roll - see Resiliency
#Assault Leader - once per day and not that great anyways
#Befuddling Strike - meh for one on one combat at best
#Canny Observer - extremely situational
#Charmer - sadly once per day + 1 additional per five levels, otherwise if it was all the time this would be great
#Coax Information - only useful if you're the face of the party and need to save skill points
#Combat Swipe - you can take this as a feat anyways, only useful in builds focused on Sleight of Hand
#Fast Fingers - see Charmer
#Fast Getaway - see Canny Observer
#Follow Clues - only useful if no one in your party took ranks in Survival
#Guileful Polyglot - how many languages do you really need?
#Hard to Fool - see Charmer
#Honeyed Words - see Charmer
#Lasting Poison - see Canny Observer
#Peerless Maneuver - see Charmer
#Strong Impression - unless you have uber strength and are feat starved don't bother
#Offensive Defensive - sadly does not stack with itself
#Nimble Climber - see Canny Observer
$Another Day - see Resiliency
$Hunters Surprise - see Assault Leader
$Knock-Out Blow - a poor man's death attack and only usable once per day
$Master of Disguise - see Assault Leader
$Redirect Attack - if this was once per round or even once per encounter it would be good, otherwise at once per day this is meh
$Thoughtful Reexamining - see Assault Leader

Duncan_Ruadrik
2011-01-09, 02:16 AM
Question:
How is Snap Shot so much better than Surprise Attack? Snap Shot lets you "take 20" on initiative if you have a ranged weapon, thus allowing a sneak attack assuming you go first... you can still be beat out initiative wise, if something/someone has a good roll and a higher initiative than you...

Surprise Attack allows a sneak attack regardless of whether you go first or not, and does not have the ranged attack caveat, so melee or ranged.

So wouldnt Surprise Attack be better? :smallconfused:

gorfnab
2011-01-09, 03:15 AM
Question:
How is Snap Shot so much better than Surprise Attack? Snap Shot lets you "take 20" on initiative if you have a ranged weapon, thus allowing a sneak attack assuming you go first... you can still be beat out initiative wise, if something/someone has a good roll and a higher initiative than you...

Surprise Attack allows a sneak attack regardless of whether you go first or not, and does not have the ranged attack caveat, so melee or ranged.

So wouldnt Surprise Attack be better? :smallconfused:
Going with that thought it would be, it's just with surprise rounds I've encounted they have almost always been at range. Okay then guess those two will be switched.

qcbtnsrm
2011-01-09, 11:12 AM
Question:
How is Snap Shot so much better than Surprise Attack? Snap Shot lets you "take 20" on initiative if you have a ranged weapon, thus allowing a sneak attack assuming you go first... you can still be beat out initiative wise, if something/someone has a good roll and a higher initiative than you...

Surprise Attack allows a sneak attack regardless of whether you go first or not, and does not have the ranged attack caveat, so melee or ranged.

So wouldnt Surprise Attack be better? :smallconfused:

You only get it if there is a surprise round. So it would only be better if you see surprise rounds almost every combat. And only if you are not one of the ones surprised.

Here are three scenarios
You are in a tense situation in a tavern. Words are said and finally someone goes for a sword. There is no surprise round; everyone is aware of everyone else. So no Surprise Attack for you.

You are crawling through a dungeon. A group of kobolds leap from hidden alcoves. You failed your perception check to see through their stealth. No Surprise Attack for you.

You have laid an ambush for a bunch of orcs. They miss their perception rolls. You attack. Surprise Attack is useless because it gives you nothing you wouldn't already have, because they will be flat footed through out the surprise round anyway.

I would say Snap Shot is better, because you can use it in the first round of a normal combat, as well as a surprise round.

Duncan_Ruadrik
2011-01-09, 03:02 PM
You only get it if there is a surprise round. So it would only be better if you see surprise rounds almost every combat. And only if you are not one of the ones surprised.

Here are three scenarios
You are in a tense situation in a tavern. Words are said and finally someone goes for a sword. There is no surprise round; everyone is aware of everyone else. So no Surprise Attack for you.

You are crawling through a dungeon. A group of kobolds leap from hidden alcoves. You failed your perception check to see through their stealth. No Surprise Attack for you.

You have laid an ambush for a bunch of orcs. They miss their perception rolls. You attack. Surprise Attack is useless because it gives you nothing you wouldn't already have, because they will be flat footed through out the surprise round anyway.

I would say Snap Shot is better, because you can use it in the first round of a normal combat, as well as a surprise round.

Actually, Snap Shot says that "a rogue may treat her initiative roll as 20 for a surprise round"

so both apply only to surprise rounds.

Surprise Attack allows a Sneak Attack whether you go first or not, and with either ranged or melee.

Snap Shot gives you a much better chance of getting a sneak attack off, but no guarantee like Surprise Attack. However, you must a a drawn range weapon in hand, and can only make an attack with that weapon.

qcbtnsrm
2011-01-09, 06:35 PM
Actually, Snap Shot says that "a rogue may treat her initiative roll as 20 for a surprise round"

:smallredface: Heh, I missed that. Comments withdrawn.

Duncan_Ruadrik
2011-01-09, 06:40 PM
No, its fine, no worries. is major Magic really that useful though? i mean, 2/day, you get a 1st level spell. Is that really such a big deal?

true_shinken
2011-01-09, 06:46 PM
It's not about Rogue talents, but about Pathfinder Rogues - Soulknife is an excellent multiclass choice. Twin Strike, Dual Slide and Dual Imbue make for a killer, killer upgrade to a Rogue's TWF abilities. You can get Dual Slide with a 2 level dip, but going for 8 levels gives you the excellent Twin Strike. Move in any way you please and do sneak attack twice in the same round. Ooh yes.

Duncan_Ruadrik
2011-01-09, 06:50 PM
so... basically the D8 HD makes it better? because, the only thing different about 3.5 and Pathfinder is the HD and the Rogue Talents, and if those arent worth it, then...

Also, if I am not mistaken, soulknife is a psionic class, which we have a group consensus to avoid. Sorry! :smallbiggrin:

Kamai
2011-01-09, 08:59 PM
No, its fine, no worries. is major Magic really that useful though? i mean, 2/day, you get a 1st level spell. Is that really such a big deal?

It wasn't a big deal until the APG, where you get Vanish (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/advanced/spells/vanish.html#vanish). Shield and Chill touch 2/day could be useful.


so... basically the D8 HD makes it better? because, the only thing different about 3.5 and Pathfinder is the HD and the Rogue Talents, and if those arent worth it, then...

As far as what makes them different, is more subtle things. The talents are supposed to be ~1/2 feat. However, rogues are very happy about skill consolidation, and about the changes to sneak attack (now a creature must be an ooze or specifically sneak attack immune).

@Gorfnab: Skill mastery is really nice, but Skill Mastery uses the specific wording to be allowed to take 10, even under stress. UMD has a specific clause to not be allowed to take 10 ever, not just because of stress.

Duncan_Ruadrik
2011-01-09, 09:54 PM
i was thinking about vanish as well... until I realized that a caster level 1 wand of vanish is 750 gp. why is a spell like ability so much better than that?

Kamai
2011-01-09, 10:24 PM
It actually doesn't work so well for Vanish. I know there are some first level spells that would be worth having at CL=level, like maybe Disguise Self and Reduce Person.

true_shinken
2011-01-10, 09:27 AM
i was thinking about vanish as well... until I realized that a caster level 1 wand of vanish is 750 gp. why is a spell like ability so much better than that?
Well, you can have both. Saves you money, a SLA can't be sundered and it also saves skill points in UMD (since you don't need it if you have it as a SLA)