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Volos
2011-01-09, 02:21 AM
I have always used dragons in my campaigns and I have never found them to be tiresome or cliche. Somehow seeing your entire village burned/melted/frozen/shocked/ect to the ground/sea/sky by the terrible flying mythic scaled beast tends to get the message across to players that they are not only mortal but could very easily be eaten at any given time. The perfect combination of power, magic, intellect, and terror... dragons are amazing creatures. The only problem is that even the lowest tier power gamer can give a dragon a run for its money once they get high enough level. My solution? Make dragons terrifying again.

I have taken a look at dragon magic and the other dragon books by WoTC. What I need is suggestions for items or spells and how to use them to keep dragons terrifying for my players.

*.*.*.*
2011-01-09, 02:26 AM
I have always used dragons in my campaigns and I have never found them to be tiresome or cliche. Somehow seeing your entire village burned/melted/frozen/shocked/ect to the ground/sea/sky by the terrible flying mythic scaled beast tends to get the message across to players that they are not only mortal but could very easily be eaten at any given time. The perfect combination of power, magic, intellect, and terror... dragons are amazing creatures. The only problem is that even the lowest tier power gamer can give a dragon a run for its money once they get high enough level. My solution? Make dragons terrifying again.

I have taken a look at dragon magic and the other dragon books by WoTC. What I need is suggestions for items or spells and how to use them to keep dragons terrifying for my players.Spam flyby attack and have it keep a Deathward up

Trekkin
2011-01-09, 02:29 AM
Perhaps giving them a Divine Rank is worth a look? Rank 1 with the right salient divine ability can throw at least some powergaming ideas for a loop.

MammonAzrael
2011-01-09, 02:35 AM
Every dragon needs a mother. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0627.html)

Intelligent selection of spells is a must. Using their huge flight movement with flyby attack (yes, usually with their breath weapon). Use Scintillating Scales if your mages get happy with touch attacks. Deathward, Mindblank, True Seeing. Metabreath feats can be pretty nasty.

More than anything else, give it a personality. Dragons are long-lived, intelligent, creatures. Not mindless beasts. Give them a plan, a reason for attacking.

Alleran
2011-01-09, 02:37 AM
Dragons with class levels can be quite frightening if done well, even just the Dragon classes that the Draconomicon has. The Unholy Ravager of Tiamat, for example, with its cleric spellcasting and semi-Divine Blast salient ability. Even just a straight Divine Rank 0 (which can also be gained through the Dragon Ascendant class) provides a number of rather hefty boosts to a dragon, what with the immunities, hit points, speed, AC bonus, DR and so on.

afroakuma
2011-01-09, 02:49 AM
Here are a few homebrew feats you can use to dial them up a notch, though be wary about letting them slip over to players:

Dauntless [Monstrous]
Your powerful stature is not easily afflicted by attempts to totally overcome you.
Prerequisites Con 21+, Huge or larger size
Benefit Whenever you fail a Fortitude save, you may reduce your current hit points by 100 to treat the effect as though you had succeeded on that save. This is not damage and is not subject to DR, other effects or abilities that would reduce or mitigate damage, or effects or abilities that trigger on hit point damage.

Monstrous Toughness [Monstrous]
Your endurance is indomitable and without peer.
Prerequisites 21+ HD, Con 21+
Benefit You gain an additional 100 hit points.

Resist Precision Damage [Monstrous]
You exhibit remarkable self-concern when it comes to your vital spots, helping you better protect them.
Prerequisites Natural armor bonus 10+
Benefit Halve the amount of any precision damage (sneak attack, etc.) dealt to you. Reduce the critical multiplier on attacks against you by 1 (to a minimum x2 multiplier).

Spell Aegis [Monstrous]
You are unaffected by certain specific magics.
Prerequisites Racial spell resistance 18+ or Spell Immunity, 5+ racial HD
Benefit Choose one spell per 2 HD you possess (maximum five spells) of a level no greater than half your HD, rounded down. When it would be beneficial to you, you completely ignore the effects of such spells as they pertain to you, save in such ways as would be physically irrelevant (you cannot ignore the rain and mud from control weather, nor pass through a wall of stone, nor cause a flying creature to crash to the ground).

Use Monstrous Toughness to increase the fight duration, Dauntless as a buffer against save-or-die effects, and Spell Aegis to selectively deny extreme "problem spells" (shivering touch being a big one).

Mr.Bookworm
2011-01-09, 03:03 AM
I'm completely failing to remember where I read this, but someone once posted a spin on draconic greed that I liked.

A dragon does not care about what mortal's value. A quartz and a diamond are both shiny rocks to them. Rather, they care about what the object is worth to the person who possesses it. A dragon might lay waste to a king's castle and make off with treasure and princess. Or it might find a beggar and take his worn shoes, his ragged clothes, his walking staff, the two copper pieces in his belt. The dragon ascribes equal value to both sets of treasure, because he has taken what they value most from both of them.

If you want to scare your players with mechanics, I don't think dragons need any particular buffs. Sorcerer spellcasting is quite good, and most of the standard stuff applies there. Just remember to play the dragon smart. A dragon should always be fighting on the ground of it's choice, between it's spellcasting and it's own mobility. It's lair in particular should have years or decades worth of work put into trapping, warding, and shaping. Tucker's Kobolds with giant lizards, basically.

Godskook
2011-01-09, 03:08 AM
A 2 level swordsage dip grants +1 to-hit, +wis AC, elite array(normally 10s or 11s), all 3 concentration check substitution maneuvers, and your choice of stances from a very useful list(20% concealment or +2d6 SA are both excellent).

And that's non-associated, so +1 CR.

Waker
2011-01-09, 03:14 AM
Scarab of Protection is a nice simple item. Prevents level drain, death attacks and if the dragon is younger, it might provide a better SR.
With a strict reading of Shivering Touch, one could argue that any item or spell that provides cold immunity would also protect against it (and as the DM, you win arguments.)
I think the idea of a dragon with a Gauntlet of Rusting Grasp is just amusing. Or Eyes of Charming (Someone will eventually roll 1.) Why not Boots of Speed too? And then for a last chuckle, Dust of Disappearance. I could have grabbed some really obscure items from any number of books, but in the hands (claws?) of a dragon, these can all be amusing.

faceroll
2011-01-09, 07:17 AM
Loredrake, from Dragons of Eberron, gives the dragon 2 more sorcerer levels and downgrades racial HD to d10s; spellhoarding from dragon 313 is a CR 0 template that turns its sorc casting into wizard casting. Turns the dragon into a brutal gish. Use stuff like blood wind to stay out of range and land full attacks, scintillating scales to ignore touch spells and wraithstrike, etc.

Jair Barik
2011-01-09, 07:25 AM
Shadow dragon with levels of rogue and the various monster/dragon feats that give more attacks. Generally speaking it will have total concealment and so get off a lot of sneak attacks on its victim without being seen.

Ravens_cry
2011-01-09, 07:47 AM
Keep them in the open. A dragon in a small cave is a trapped beast, a dragon outside is death on wings.

Runestar
2011-01-09, 07:55 AM
Spc has a ton of spells which can be used to buff them to the heavens. Ray deflection to get rid of pesky ray spells, bite of the werebear for obscene boost to stats, metabreath spells to deal more damage than the PCs have hp. As well as contingencies like fortunate fate.

Don't forget gear like monk's belt, amulet of mighty fists and bracers of armour.

Though I am actually going in the opposite direction, how to make them more like dragons and less like draconic spellcasters.

AslanCross
2011-01-09, 08:00 AM
Dragons should always fight on their own terms. They have two primary advantages that the PCs are likely going to have to prepare for if they expect the battle:

1. Flight. Never put the dragon in an environment where its flight is negated. As such, while the cliche of the dragon in the cave comes from the lovable tradition of The Hobbit, where was Smaug's battle fought? In the sky, with a lot of flying room. Bilbo didn't fight Smaug in his own lair. (So yeah, I really hate the "fight the sleeping dragon in its lair" cliche.)

2. Energy immunity. It helps a lot if the dragon can either prepare the battlefield, but as a DM, consider having the PCs fight that blue dragon on top of a crag during a violent thunderstorm. (Wind effects can keep the smaller PCs in check, while the rain offers concealment. The dragon does not care about lightning strikes, but that damage (anywhere from 1d8 to 10d8) has got to count for something. Heck, that's like getting an extra breath weapon attack.

While red dragons do have that "I live in a volcano" cliche, there might be many other potential battlefields. A burning city is one thing I've done. The narrow streets hamper the PCs' mobility, and the burning buildings are very dangerous things to get trapped in. Don't forget the smoke either; a smokescreen that blocks sight can be easily pierced by the dragon's blindsense, as the smoke doesn't block line of effect.
Other potential lairs for fire-based dragons: a desert (make sure it's bloody hot), a temple of elemental fire or something similar, or in more industrial settings, a metal foundry (such as The Cogs in Eberron).

Unfortunately for the other types of dragons, their energy types are a bit harder to come by, but they have other abilities that might count. Here's a list of my recommendations:

Black Dragons: Swamps. If you read the DMG's entry on marshes, they're pretty darn scary. The PCs can't often see if they're about to step into deep water; the mud slows them down, and there's a lot of places for the dragon to hide, including in the water. Furthermore, if the dragon can cast fire spells, you have pockets of flammable marsh gas.

Blue Dragons: Dragons are said to live in deserts, and are supposed to burrow underground. I dunno. You have a bright blue creature in a stark brown terrain. Yeah, he can burrow, but it's difficult to move around and you dramatically decrease speed. Instead, I recommend treacherous crags in a mountainous zone notorious for foul weather. Strong winds, rain, lightning strikes, scree-covered slopes can give the PCs pause. If you do want to stay in the desert, have the dragon use pre-made traps that can drop a ton of sand on the PCs.

Green Dragons: Not much to go with here. They work well in forests, but to play up the acid immunity, you can have acid geysers, or maybe even a region of carnivorous plants that release acidic pollen.

Red Dragons: As mentioned above, volcanoes, metal plants, regions of magical elemental fire, or even a burning city can prove a fantastic battlefield.

White Dragons: Poor guys. You're pretty much limited to cold terrain, but the top of a glacier can still prove awful: the dragon has icewalking, the PCs likely don't. You could even have the dragon attack them on top of a frozen lake. Slippery ice, thin ice, jagged ice---the land itself wants to kill the PCs and feed them to the dragon.

Brass Dragons: See the red dragon entry.

Bronze Dragons: See the blue dragon entry; bronze dragons like the water, though, so maybe a high mountain lake or a series of sea stacks near the ocean can work.

Copper Dragon: Spider Climb helps the Copper Dragon take advantage of narrow and sheer cliffs, allowing the dragon to come to a stop and ignore the usual limitations of poor mobility ratings in flight. Narrow gorges seem to work well with the Coppers.

Gold Dragons: Two words: underwater volcano. You have steam explosions, lava flows that don't look like they're hot (but they are!) and toxic gases.

Silver Dragons: Put Cloudwalking to use. Remember that they can walk across fog too. Mountaintops are obvious, but even a city notorious for fog, on the shores of a mist-shrouded lake is a fantastic place for a silver dragon ambush. Use alternate form. Sail out on a boat with the PCs. Vanish. Kill the PCs.

Flight and immunities are easy to prepare for. It's the dragons' less known racial abilities that can end up giving the PCs a severe handicap.

(Btw, I'm assuming the dragons are all fighting the PCs, ignoring Color-Coding.)

grimbold
2011-01-09, 02:43 PM
Perhaps giving them a Divine Rank is worth a look? Rank 1 with the right salient divine ability can throw at least some powergaming ideas for a loop.

i agree divine ranks are a good way to make stuff awesome

Vulaas
2011-01-09, 03:28 PM
Everything AslanCross said is spot on. Dragons have a terrifying array of special abilities, amazing casting abilities (if properly done up), and a frightening intellect to make it so literally no plan you come up with for them, no trap you put in their lair, nothing whatsoever is too over the top or too powerful.

Super_Fluous
2011-01-09, 03:59 PM
Fluff-wise, I like to play up the idea of just how old dragons can be.

Think about it. Individual dragons have lived eons before humanoid civilization sprang up, and they'll be alive and kicking far after we're gone. To a dragon, a human is barely a figment, less then ants or fleas are too us. We barely exist even for an equivalent second of their lifespans, and fade into nothingness. The sheer matter is that dragons simply do not care about us at all, unless we get in their immediate way. We are simply irrelevant by comparison.

Basically, play up the potential cosmic horror aspects of them. Dragons as Cthulhu, that sort of thing.

tyckspoon
2011-01-09, 04:02 PM
Fluff-wise, I like to play up the idea of just how old dragons can be.

Think about it. Individual dragons have lived eons before humanoid civilization sprang up, and they'll be alive and kicking far after we're gone. To a dragon, a human is barely a figment, less then ants or fleas are too us. We barely exist even for an equivalent second of their lifespans, and fade into nothingness. The sheer matter is that dragons simply do not care about us at all, unless we get in their immediate way. We are simply irrelevant by comparison.

Basically, play up the potential cosmic horror aspects of them. Dragons as Cthulhu, that sort of thing.

This works a lot better when the 'irrelevant figments' are not demonstrably capable of kicking the cosmic horrors asses to the Seven Heavens and back. This kind of situation in D&D is more Gurren Lagann than Cthulu.

true_shinken
2011-01-09, 04:24 PM
I'll second the class levels thing.
My poor poor PCs are opposing the assassin's guild. They don't know the leader is an adult white dragon Assassin 10 :smallamused:

Callista
2011-01-09, 04:25 PM
They are smart and they are usually spellcasters. Do you really need more?

(And the more social ones will have minions, too. Kobolds, anyone?)

true_shinken
2011-01-09, 04:27 PM
They are smart and they are usually spellcasters. Do you really need more?
Well, you don't need it, but after (Improved) Rapidstrike and metabreath feats, your party will think twice before attacking a dragon ever again.

WeLoveFireballs
2011-01-09, 04:40 PM
Once my players bombarded a pirate fleet with fireballs and control water wirlpools only to see from the flagship a red dragon rip his way from the admiral's cabin and dispel the crud out of their flight and invisibility. Had it not rolled a one on its save vs hold monster it likely would have killed them all.

Super_Fluous
2011-01-09, 05:00 PM
This works a lot better when the 'irrelevant figments' are not demonstrably capable of kicking the cosmic horrors asses to the Seven Heavens and back. This kind of situation in D&D is more Gurren Lagann than Cthulu.

Semantics.

But yes, I will admit that this sort of thing tends to work best in lower level campaigns. But still, that doesn't mean it isn't necessarily without merit elsewhere. Have the dragons less be characters in there own right, so much as they are a natural part of the environment. Have them be so enormous that entire civilizations have settled on their back without even knowing what the land truly is. That sorts thing.

DeltaEmil
2011-01-09, 05:03 PM
I don't know. Making dragons better spell-casters only turns them into sorcerers/clerics with lots of hit points and already shape-changed into dragon form.

Emphasizing their breath weapons, their kick-ass huge wings with which they fly or blow anything lighter than an iron golem away and their hurty-crunchy bite attack strikes me as more dragonish and fun in the end than something that needs to cast improved invisibility, true seeing, gate in a few balors, has spell contingency with heal prepared and all that mumbo-jumbo to keep up with the player character tier 1 characters supported by magically enhanced fighters that need to be immobilized with hold person or something like that.

Godskook
2011-01-09, 05:07 PM
Dragons should always fight on their own terms. They have two primary advantages that the PCs are likely going to have to prepare for if they expect the battle:

1. Flight. Never put the dragon in an environment where its flight is negated. As such, while the cliche of the dragon in the cave comes from the lovable tradition of The Hobbit, where was Smaug's battle fought? In the sky, with a lot of flying room. Bilbo didn't fight Smaug in his own lair. (So yeah, I really hate the "fight the sleeping dragon in its lair" cliche.)

Just to expand on this, I'd like to point out how little space is required to accomplish this task, in terms of cave sizes. Low-CR dragons can easily have lairs made by their parents that are large enough to navigate without issue. For mid-high CR dragons, it'd be harder, but then, they'd probably focus on having a roomy 'front yard'(red dragons would have an entrance that opened up onto the volcano's top, for instance) and secret escape pathways.

Neoseanster
2011-01-09, 05:14 PM
Once my players bombarded a pirate fleet with fireballs and control water wirlpools only to see from the flagship a red dragon rip his way from the admiral's cabin and dispel the crud out of their flight and invisibility. Had it not rolled a one on its save vs hold monster it likely would have killed them all.

From http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typessubtypes.htm:


Dragon Type

A dragon is a reptilelike creature, usually winged, with magical or unusual abilities.

Features
A dragon has the following features.

12-sided Hit Dice.
Base attack bonus equal to total Hit Dice (as fighter).
Good Fortitude, Reflex, and Will saves.
Skill points equal to (6 + Int modifier, minimum 1) per Hit Die, with quadruple skill points for the first Hit Die.
Traits
A dragon possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in the description of a particular kind).

Darkvision out to 60 feet and low-light vision.
Immunity to magic sleep effects and paralysis effects.
Proficient with its natural weapons only unless humanoid in form (or capable of assuming humanoid form), in which case proficient with all simple weapons and any weapons mentioned in its entry.
Proficient with no armor.
Dragons eat, sleep, and breathe.

Emphasis is mine, dragons should normally be immune to hold monster.

Although if it was a dramatically epic enough situation, I could certainly see ruling otherwise as a one time thing, just so the party could have its moment of epic awesomeness.

Dr.Epic
2011-01-09, 05:15 PM
Multiple dragons (like, send hordes of them at the players)? Also, templates stacked onto them?

Waker
2011-01-09, 07:54 PM
Since this kinda drifts away from your original request, I am somewhat hesitant to suggest it, but it could still be fun.
Try adding a template to a dragon. It doesn't have to be anything huge, but if the parties strategy is based on a certain premise (White Dragons vunerable to fire) then it might throw them off if they find out that the dragon actually died and has since become a White Dragon Ghost. There are many different templates, and unless the party has some means to definitely find out what abilities this dragon has, they can't expect to be fully prepared.
Obviously there are some good reasons to have the dragon make the first move, most prominently giving the party less time to make plans, but don't forget that even a young dragon has been playing the devious schemer longer than the party. Thinking that an older dragon wouldn't have their lairs protected from adventurers is just silly. "Oh no, the party is flying through the hallways! Now they can bypass all the traps without altering the dragon." But there are ways around even a skilled intruder. Alarm can detect any creatures in the area that aren't ethereal or astral, no save to bypass. No reason the dragon couldn't have several permanent alarms located around the lair. "The party just became ethereal to avoid the alarms." Dragons can employ many minions (through domination or actual pay), stick some alarms on the Ethereal Plane too, when the party sets one off, the dragons Ethereal Filcher minion hops onto the Material Plane to warn him.
And what would stop a dragon from booby trapping their own resting place? The party managed to bypass or defeat all of the wards the dragon set in place? Have the dragon pull a plug and let the room flood with lava (Red Dragon the best choice). Acid, water or any number of other things could work, depending on the dragons type.
Or how about if the party manages to pull some other crazy antics, like traveling through the astral plane or teleporting and you decide to allow it. The party has the drop on the dragon and they let loose their biggest attacks and then...nothing happens. Apparently the dragon had prepared a Permanent Image to confound any would-be intruders.
Never forget, that not only are dragons incredibly intelligent, but they have hundreds if not thousands of years worth of time to prepare against a wyrmslayer.

*.*.*.*
2011-01-09, 08:07 PM
Have the dragon pull a plug and let the room flood with lava (Red Dragon the best choice). Acid, water or any number of other things could work, depending on the dragons type

I really like this idea! Though, wouldn't the lava/acid just eat through the floor relatively easy?

Waker
2011-01-09, 08:23 PM
It is entirely dependent on the substance, but as a general rule no. Acids might only dissolve organic material, while lava would scorch away the top surface of the rock (assuming rock is the floor) but wouldn't melt through it all.

Starbuck_II
2011-01-09, 08:24 PM
I have always used dragons in my campaigns and I have never found them to be tiresome or cliche. Somehow seeing your entire village burned/melted/frozen/shocked/ect to the ground/sea/sky by the terrible flying mythic scaled beast tends to get the message across to players that they are not only mortal but could very easily be eaten at any given time. The perfect combination of power, magic, intellect, and terror... dragons are amazing creatures. The only problem is that even the lowest tier power gamer can give a dragon a run for its money once they get high enough level. My solution? Make dragons terrifying again.

I have taken a look at dragon magic and the other dragon books by WoTC. What I need is suggestions for items or spells and how to use them to keep dragons terrifying for my players.

Dragon magic lets you trade Frightening Presence for cool abilities.
The Red Dragon one has an aura has unavoidable fire damage around it.

Cerlis
2011-01-09, 08:41 PM
I really think the issue is in not making dragons more terrifying, because they are. Assuming you work with the inhuman intelligence, magical ability and the fact they are flying castle sized demons (basically). as people said before a Dragon isnt dumb enough to be caught trapped in its lair (unless its lair is well guarded). Any predator attacks only if it has the advantage, not just if its stronger than its prey.

Not sure why you think dragons arent scary unless it has to do with the whole Failing a save thing. Which i think it would make sense to just change the rules for large creatures. No hold monster. Just Hold Creature, the caster chooses what spell slot it uses. Base level can hold a medium or smaller creature. And maybe every spell level adds a size.

I dont know, main thing is that Hold monster, Power word kill, Finger of death, are all spells that have a certian amount of magic, designed to rip out the life or effect a creature with so much magic.

If your magic is only strong enough to hold a large troll, then it shouldnt also work on a full dragon.Not saying it should be immune. but wouldnt it be interesting if the party didnt kill the dragon by paralizing it and then hacking it to pieces, but managed to Paralize its arm, or one of its wings, weakening it to bring it down. Death effects targeted at such a large creature should deal major damage, but not outright kill something as large as a full sized dragon.

DeltaEmil
2011-01-09, 08:45 PM
Most dragons do stay almost all the time in their lair, because the most dangerous thing to a dragon isn't a bunch of heroic dragon-slayers, it's other dragons. Dragons that can also fly, spew things out from their mouth and perhaps cast anti-matter bombs when said dragon is out hunting for bears and virgins.

The defenses of a lair are meant to drive away younger and/or bigger dragons who want to kill the dragon and take his stuff.

They might sometimes also prove effective against the small humanoids that want to kill them, so that they don't go eating virgins and terrorizing small hamlets, but that's rather secondary. And that's why a bunch of humans, dwarves, elves and other dudes and dudettes prevail sometimes against a dragon.

Draz74
2011-01-09, 09:02 PM
On the issue of "well-played dragons tend to just end up being Sorcerers who are big and scary, not actually use their breath weapons and physical weapons ...", don't forget about Xorvintaal. It's an option for dragons to swap out their spellcasting, and still be decently hard while being much more dragon-like.

afroakuma
2011-01-09, 09:31 PM
Not sure why you think dragons arent scary unless it has to do with the whole Failing a save thing. Which i think it would make sense to just change the rules for large creatures. No hold monster. Just Hold Creature, the caster chooses what spell slot it uses. Base level can hold a medium or smaller creature. And maybe every spell level adds a size.

I dont know, main thing is that Hold monster, Power word kill, Finger of death, are all spells that have a certian amount of magic, designed to rip out the life or effect a creature with so much magic.

If your magic is only strong enough to hold a large troll, then it shouldnt also work on a full dragon.Not saying it should be immune. but wouldnt it be interesting if the party didnt kill the dragon by paralizing it and then hacking it to pieces, but managed to Paralize its arm, or one of its wings, weakening it to bring it down. Death effects targeted at such a large creature should deal major damage, but not outright kill something as large as a full sized dragon.

As I mentioned before, using that Dauntless feat I posted keeps casters and save-or-dies relevant without decimating the encounter.

AtomicKitKat
2011-01-09, 09:45 PM
Remember that Vaarsuvius link above? Yeah. Anti-magic Shell, done at the right time, hoses ridiculous crap like Shivering Touch.

Skaven
2011-01-09, 10:04 PM
Dragons become terrifying again when the DM's play them right.

Use their wealth and hoard. Give them a load of magic equipment: jewelry such as rings and an amulet at the very least.

Use their feats.

Use their flight and wings.

Lastly, use their intelligence. Their hoard needs protecting and they have centuries to prepare defenses. Traps. Minions. Contingency plans. Magic.

I sometimes houserule them to have percentage damage immunities to weapons below their size dependant on how small the weapon sizes are to them.

Lastly.. I outright disallow badly thought out cheese like shivering touch.

quiet1mi
2011-01-09, 11:16 PM
Dragons never act alone and should never be alone, they have pawns and agents...

Think of them like a mafia boss, sure they can be rough in a fight but they should not be sullying their hands and leaving their lair. The only time normal people should see them is when they are about to be eaten by them.

To make them Terrifying, I recommend thinking like a dragon. Use everything they have to their advantage. Darkvision, filters in their eyes against blinding lights, blindsense/sight, Sorcerer levels and always remember that in an anti-magic field you are just a helpless monkey with visions of grandeur while it is still a dragon.

Coidzor
2011-01-09, 11:49 PM
Think of them like a mafia boss, sure they can be rough in a fight but they should not be sullying their hands and leaving their lair. The only time normal people should see them is when they are about to be eaten by them.

Someone say mafia boss? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0619.html) :smallbiggrin:

Runestar
2011-01-10, 06:35 AM
At higher levels, there are quite a few ways spellcasters have of shutting down solo fights right from the go. I don't think any amount of stat optimization can counter that. Avasculate, stun ray, forcecage...those are just the tip of the iceberg. :smalltongue:

agentnone
2011-01-10, 07:50 AM
What I did in the campaign I ran was had an albino red dragon, cast out of his own for being different. He lived in a dormant volcano just at the edge of the frozen lands to the south. The PCs went to fight him, with all the clues and information being fed to them as it being a white (ice) dragon. So they all prepared fire spells and whatnot. Almost TPK because they missed the one major hint I gave them, that after the dragon would attack the small villages, half the huts would be burned to the ground.

Just changing a physical aspect of a dragon is enough to make it more dangerous and earn the player's respect for them. Just make sure to give them hints to what's really going on, even if they're tiny ones. And playing them to their strengths and giving them the ability to cover their weaknesses makes it harder too. Afterall, I would imagine a dragon would know it's weaknesses and have some sort of item or spell in place to protect itself.

On another note, giving them max hit points wouldn't hurt either.

Hida Reju
2011-01-10, 09:12 AM
Hardest Red dragon we fought in 3.5 was played like a Gish super fighter. It was a great wyrm max HP so was considered low epic CR 22 if only because of Dire charge.

1. Dragon knew we were in his area and was buffed with Shield, Improved Mage Armor, Bear's Endurance, Cats Grace, ring of protection +5, Amulet of resistance +5, and Energy Immunity Cold (Item). Our attacks were not scaling well with the armor buffs and the +5 to all saves was a killer.

2. The contingency was Dimension Door if less than 40% hit points and hand enough range to teleport him out of the battle area into a safe zone (With healing items and a lake of lava for him to bathe in) he had set up on the other side of the 50ft thick walls.

3. Dragon had Power attack/Dire charge and used it ruthlessly. How about 15 extra damage per attack on a full attack targeting a low HP person. This obliterated the Cleric (was set to resist fire/spells and expected the dragon to stay out of melee) and the Rogue in one round each.

Yeah it was an epic encounter with about 50% of the 6 man party needing True rez at the end. Only reason we won it was we backed her into protecting her eggs after the dimension door and our Mage/incantrix managed to metamagic up a 200 point Orb of acid acid/acid admixture blast set up with a quickened true strike. BTW that was the only high lvl blast spell she had.

But what to take is that if the dragon knows you are coming make it a totally different fight.

Ernir
2011-01-10, 09:59 AM
In my experience, dragons are always terrifying as long as they aren't...

Using worse tactics than the players
Receiving less optimization than the PCs
Of too low a CR.

olthar
2011-01-10, 10:18 AM
if your real worry is that a caster can take the dragon out in the first round of combat then all it takes it remembering that dragons are REALLY smart. There is a chance that the dragon will have some knowledge of a party of adventurers that are strong enough to kill a dragon. Also, as per the previous comments about anti-magic field, dragons who live a long time have probably fought other adventurers before. They know that a party's wizard is probably going to begin combat by spamming save or die type spells. There are perfectly legitimate ways of stopping said spells from working. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0166.html)

quiet1mi
2011-01-10, 10:32 AM
In my experience, dragons are always terrifying as long as they aren't...

* Using worse tactics than the players
* Receiving less optimization than the PCs
* Of too low a CR.


Dragons should be treated like the DM's PC, optimized as much as the party is optimized, then a slight bit more.

Joshinthemosh
2011-01-10, 07:44 PM
Try adding a template to a dragon.

Can we take a second to imagine the hell a Gold Dragon with a Saint Template on top of it would rain down? I'm taking this idea and using against a party someday

Starbuck_II
2011-01-10, 07:54 PM
Hardest Red dragon we fought in 3.5 was played like a Gish super fighter. It was a great wyrm max HP so was considered low epic CR 22 if only because of Dire charge.

1. Dragon knew we were in his area and was buffed with Shield, Improved Mage Armor, Bear's Endurance, Cats Grace, ring of protection +5, Amulet of resistance +5, and Energy Immunity Cold (Item). Our attacks were not scaling well with the armor buffs and the +5 to all saves was a killer.


Same with buffs (but was a White dragon with Energy immunity fire): he also had a wall of Dispel magic up before we walked in:
So some of us lost our buffs before we attacked.

I thought it was energy resistance (lettinghim shrug off fire) so my Wu jen throw a bomb (Fireberries spell) do 89 fire damage, but it was resistance so no benefit.

I had to switch to the old stand by: Snake Darts. hp damage + Con damage.
Meleers/ally Wizard (evoker)/Con damage = death.

I tried to dispel its buffs first, but still resisted fire (did'nt realize it was an item till we got the loot).

I've killed more things with Con damage regardless of their High Fort saves with Snake darts than any other spell.

Dusk Eclipse
2011-01-10, 07:56 PM
I am fond on adding the half-shadow dragon (it is found in... Dragons of Faerun IIRC and as per Draconomnomnomicon it is valid for half-dragon) template on top of the Dragon of your choice.

Now the dragon is immune to negative levels, has a slower fly speed, but it has more maneuverability, it gets a significant boost on str and a good boost for con, int and cha. And finally if you take a feat from Races of the dragon you now have a breath weapon that deals 2 negative levels or 1 on a save. All for just a +2 on CR.

Toliudar
2011-01-10, 08:01 PM
Phoenix Rivers did a lovely job of playing an intelligent, lethal dragon who fought five 20th-level characters to a standstill. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=133571) I present this also as a counterpoint to the "keep them out in the open" suggestion. I wish that that dragon had ever stayed out in the open.

Alternately, if you want to make sure that dragons remain big and terrifying, you can always play E6 or E8, so that heroes remain heroes, and not superheroes.

AslanCross
2011-01-10, 08:23 PM
Phoenix Rivers did a lovely job of playing an intelligent, lethal dragon who fought five 20th-level characters to a standstill. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=133571) I present this also as a counterpoint to the "keep them out in the open" suggestion. I wish that that dragon had ever stayed out in the open.

Alternately, if you want to make sure that dragons remain big and terrifying, you can always play E6 or E8, so that heroes remain heroes, and not superheroes.

I'm sorry, do you have the specific pages? It's a bit difficult to browse through the entire thread.

Dsurion
2011-01-10, 08:45 PM
Instead of just tacking on additional features, I've always preferred sending dragons up against a party who has no hope whatsoever of defeating them. Ensure it's a pantscrappingly close escape so set people straight. Having a dragon fly by and burninate the countryside (and the peasants) in an aerial assault is enough for me to say, "Screw this. I'm going home."

Templarkommando
2011-01-10, 09:36 PM
Let me tell you sort of what I'm doing with my campaign.

I played Baldur's Gate 2 back a long time ago, and one of my favorite villains in it is Lord Jierdaan Firekraag. Aside from being a conniving bastard (he sets an illusion to make the party kill some patrolling knights) he's also a powerful red dragon. He's extremely manipulative and sometimes ruins people's lives just for the sheer amusement - as he's recently stolen the noble title of a good paladin and his keep, and kidnaps his daughter.

I also played a game called Vampire: The Masquerade: Bloodlines. In this all of society is basically run by vampires. Everything in history was part of an ancient game for various vampiric power brokers to gain power.

Basically, I've sort of combined these two concepts. There is an ancient game between metallic and chromatic dragons. Metallic dragons are engaged in the game in order to protect the mortal world, and chromatic dragons are in the game in order to establish, consolidate and defend their own power sources - and if they kill a few innocents in the meantime "ha ha isn't that amusing."

Dragons try to blend into human society, and incidentally a great many nobles and other powerful people turn out to be dragons or closely affiliated with them. Any perceived threat to a chromatic dragon's power base (intentional or otherwise) can lead to a vendetta that lasts centuries. An army that happens to accidentally march through a valley near the dragon's lair might discover that all surrounding villages within a hundred mile radius are being attacked by dragons - or heck, they may wake up dead.

Of course, these accidental threats to power bases are very easy to weave into the plot of a campaign. A thieves guild boss that the party intimidates in one session might have connections to a dragon etc.

The other side of the coin is that you can give the party some interesting allies. A silver dragon can make an impressive boss, or maybe they're hiding something and your patron just has "mysteriously silver hair." Not like "I'm old and decrepit hair," but "Wow, this hair is like... actual silver almost."