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View Full Version : Can I voluntarily lengthen casting time?



ffone
2011-01-09, 05:08 AM
Suppose you have a situation where a spellcaster wants to (poentially) extend the casting time of their spell - possibly, being able to 'keep casting' until they choose to 'finish'.

For example, Scrying takes 1 hour (and lasts 1 min / level). A caster wants to cast the spell while in the presence of allies, who will visit her at some unknown time in the next few hours, and she doesn't want them to have to wait an hour. So she would like to begin casting, and then when they arrive, 'finish' the cast.

Another example would be an offensive spell with a long casting time, meant to be used as a 'trap' once someone arrives in range (Apocalypse from the Sky from BoVD takes 1 full day to cast.)

Xiander
2011-01-09, 05:16 AM
As a GM i do not see a reason to disallow it. I might call for concentration checks to avoid letting it go though.

Curmudgeon
2011-01-09, 05:29 AM
I think anything which increases the power (and flexibility is power) of spellcasters is a bad idea. Lengthening casting time would also allow multiple castings of swift action spells in a round, bypassing the intentional limitation of 1 such spell per round.

By the RAW, there's no such option. As a house rule, it's a bad idea "for free", but possibly reasonable as a +2 spell level metamagic option. (If you exclude swift and immediate action spells then just +1 would be OK.)

faceroll
2011-01-09, 05:45 AM
By RAW, no, and it's a good thing, due to spells like Arcane Spellsurge, which lowers the casting time of spells for spontaneous casters.

Rasman
2011-01-09, 05:50 AM
By RAW, no, and it's a good thing, due to spells like Arcane Spellsurge, which lowers the casting time of spells for spontaneous casters.

/agree. Just because of the existence of this spell, I wouldn't allow it. Burning a feat on Invisible Spell +0 to increase a spell to a full round action is completely within the rules though and a viable part of the Arcane Spellsurge cheese.


Sounds like a decent idea for a skill trick.

TBH, that feels like a bit too much power for a Skill Trick.

Robs
2011-01-09, 05:50 AM
Sounds like a decent idea for a skill trick.

2xMachina
2011-01-09, 05:59 AM
Put it in a scroll, and complete it later?

Heliomance
2011-01-09, 09:59 AM
TBH, I'd probably allow it, on a case by case basis anyway. I'd definitely involve concentration checks though, and say you couldn't cast another spell without losing or casting the one you're holding. TBH, I'd say you probably couldn't do much while holding a spell, including talking.

WarKitty
2011-01-09, 10:06 AM
I think anything which increases the power (and flexibility is power) of spellcasters is a bad idea. Lengthening casting time would also allow multiple castings of swift action spells in a round, bypassing the intentional limitation of 1 such spell per round.

By the RAW, there's no such option. As a house rule, it's a bad idea "for free", but possibly reasonable as a +2 spell level metamagic option. (If you exclude swift and immediate action spells then just +1 would be OK.)

Wouldn't most of this be solved by ruling that you have to keep focus on an individual spell until you finish?

Callista
2011-01-09, 10:52 AM
Some spells, you can just hold the charge until you're ready to use it. But not Scrying, no.

If it were me DMing, I'd go for progressively increasing concentration checks. It should be possible, but not easy.

Vangor
2011-01-09, 11:02 AM
I think the issue with ever-increasing concentration checks is the spells which those will be used on were never meant to be employed in encounters. You would never need to use this on one-round casting time spells since you would merely ready actions. Having characters not need to "wait" an hour in-game for scrying does not seem to be a useful enough excuse for possible abuses I cannot currently think of.

elonin
2011-01-09, 11:12 AM
Case by case basis.

2xMachina
2011-01-09, 12:19 PM
Cast divination.

When will my allies reach here?
Start casting 1 hour earlier.

Say, "Ah, right on time", when they reach you just as you complete the spell.

Curmudgeon
2011-01-09, 02:17 PM
Wouldn't most of this be solved by ruling that you have to keep focus on an individual spell until you finish?
Alas, there are ways around that. Sonorous Hum (Spell Compendium) will let you automatically maintain Concentration on the next spell you cast, at least until SH expires. Since it's a personal range spell, you could keep Sonorous Hum going for 24 hours with Persistent Spell. So a free extension of casting time would let the caster run around and throw out swift or immediate action spells while still keeping their open-ended casting going. There are one or two other ways to take advantage of this as well.

As I said, flexibility is power. Spellcasters already have plenty of that, so don't give them more without cost.

ffone
2011-01-09, 05:53 PM
I think I concur with Curm now that it's too powerful to allow generally into my campaign.

For the specific use I had in mind a a DM, the suggestion to use Divination off-stage (the NPC uses it to have precognition on when the PCs will show up) works nicely.

Come to think of it, that's a nice trick generally for DMs who want to use tropey "relative time" like most console RPGs have (the cinematic events that just happen to be unfolding as the PCs arrive, without keeping a global game clock for the campaign events up to that point). Somewhat tropey (Xanatos Roulette at its worse extreme) but this one plot usage (it's an event very early in the campaign - a very large-area damage spell with a 1-day-casting time that I'd like the PCs to witness to motivate them to prevent its next casting) it works very well. Thanks for the suggestion 2xMachina.

Heliomance
2011-01-09, 07:24 PM
If you're planning on houseruling it in, it's easy enough to say that holding a spell partially cast takes more than just Concentration. Say that you can't speak, perform any strenuous actions, or move at more than half speed for the entire time you're holding it, and it should be fine.

ffone
2011-01-10, 03:38 AM
If you're planning on houseruling it in, it's easy enough to say that holding a spell partially cast takes more than just Concentration. Say that you can't speak, perform any strenuous actions, or move at more than half speed for the entire time you're holding it, and it should be fine.

Well, but isn't casting already more restrictive than this?

I wasn't asking about being able to delay the effect of a spell (as with the Delay Spell metamagic feat), or to 'hold a charge' for it or anything like that - just to increase the literal casting time with all the restrictions that entails: you're basically doing nothing else while casting, not just b/c it requires concentration (and verbal and somatic components), but it's consuming your action(s) while you cast it. (Your full turn every round for a multiround spell, etc.)

I think the Sonorous Hum trick Curmudgeon brought up would only apply to maintaining concentration on a spell after it's cast (for spells where you can / need to, like detect magic) - not to the time period of the casting itself. Or is there some rule that when you're casting a multi-round spell like Scrying, each round of casting only consumes your standard action (a la 'concentrating')?

Cadian 9th
2011-01-10, 03:44 AM
I cannot see anything wrong with this, except if it includes Immediate or Swift action spells. We can boost normal actions, but beyond Synad, Ruby Knight Vindicator ECL 13, we cannot gain additional Swift or Immediate actions.

In other words, yeah, go for it, but only for long casting spells (Longer than a standard action).

Curmudgeon
2011-01-10, 05:59 AM
I think the Sonorous Hum trick Curmudgeon brought up would only apply to maintaining concentration on a spell after it's cast (for spells where you can / need to, like detect magic) - not to the time period of the casting itself. Perhaps my note that this change, with Sonorous Hum, "would let the caster run around and throw out swift or immediate action spells" was overly dramatic; I didn't mean to imply that the spellcaster would be using either move actions or the Run full-round action.

A spell that takes 1 minute to cast comes into effect just before your turn 1 minute later (and for each of those 10 rounds, you are casting a spell as a full-round action, just as noted above for 1-round casting times). These actions must be consecutive and uninterrupted, or the spell automatically fails.

When you begin a spell that takes 1 round or longer to cast, you must continue the concentration from the current round to just before your turn in the next round (at least). If you lose concentration before the casting is complete, you lose the spell. However, the spellcaster would be able to take any actions that would be available while using full-round actions. If they'd started the casting while on a mount they could be carried around with the mount supplying the move actions. Even without a mount they could use a 5' step every round, which would let them cover over 4200' (diagonal distance) in each hour. (5' steps and free actions would be also enough to walk onto a Carpet of Flying and sit or kneel down thereon, and speak directions to it.) And, of course, all those swift and immediate action spells would be available once Sonorous Hum removed the concentration requirement.

Heliomance
2011-01-10, 06:47 AM
While I know Curmudgeon generally speaks (quite accurately) with the voice of RAW, and this forum generally considers RAW over all, this is a house rule for a real game. It can probably be assumed that Rule -1, Don't Be A ****, is in effect.

Drynwyn
2011-01-10, 06:04 PM
It seems like it wouldn't be a problem to me. However, I would state that the minimum extended time is 1 round, preventing swift action cheese.

WarKitty
2011-01-10, 06:14 PM
Wouldn't a spellcaster need sonorous hum to do a 1-day casting time anyway? I'd presume that concentration is incompatible with certain other activities that humans need to do during the day...

Curmudgeon
2011-01-10, 06:20 PM
Wouldn't a spellcaster need sonorous hum to do a 1-day casting time anyway? I'd presume that concentration is incompatible with certain other activities that humans need to do during the day...
Nope. This is D&D, where such trivia don't require any actions in the rules. Consequently, they can't break concentration. :smallbiggrin:

WarKitty
2011-01-10, 06:24 PM
Nope. This is D&D, where such trivia don't require any actions in the rules. Consequently, they can't break concentration. :smallbiggrin:

In my next game, I think I'm going to start wetting my pants and prestidigitating them clean.

Or maybe just get some auto-prestidigitating pants.

Xerit
2011-01-10, 07:59 PM
Would it just make intuitive sense that assuming lengthening cast time was possible at all, that spells designed without cast times wouldn't have times to lengthen?

Immediate/Swift would sort of preclude themselves wouldn't they?

ffone
2011-01-11, 03:17 AM
Perhaps my note that this change, with Sonorous Hum, "would let the caster run around and throw out swift or immediate action spells" was overly dramatic; I didn't mean to imply that the spellcaster would be using either move actions or the Run full-round action.
However, the spellcaster would be able to take any actions that would be available while using full-round actions. If they'd started the casting while on a mount they could be carried around with the mount supplying the move actions. Even without a mount they could use a 5' step every round, which would let them cover over 4200' (diagonal distance) in each hour. (5' steps and free actions would be also enough to walk onto a Carpet of Flying and sit or kneel down thereon, and speak directions to it.) And, of course, all those swift and immediate action spells would be available once Sonorous Hum removed the concentration requirement.

Hmm, that gives me interesting campaign ideas actually (for the bad guys using the 1-day-casting Apocalypse from the Sky spell)! For example, he could use Greater Mirror Image (an immediate action spell) to make it harder for PCs to hit him if they intercept him during the casting.

Curmudgeon
2011-01-11, 09:46 AM
Hmm, that gives me interesting campaign ideas actually (for the bad guys using the 1-day-casting Apocalypse from the Sky spell)! For example, he could use Greater Mirror Image (an immediate action spell) to make it harder for PCs to hit him if they intercept him during the casting.
That's pretty good. Sonorous Hum is a low enough level spell that it's a candidate for Persistent Spell without metamagic spell level reduction shenanigans, and it makes good defensive sense to use it if you're going to be busy casting a very time-consuming spell. I do suggest you add a Carpet of Flying or Bottle of Smoke spell to give the bad guy some mobility as well.