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Rasman
2011-01-09, 08:00 AM
I just picked up Strategists & Tactictians from 4 Winds Fantasy Gaming, which is a REALLY interesting Splat Book for a 3rd party source. In it there is a "Daredevil" PRC that BASCIALLY gives big bonuses to Combat Maneauvers, along with almost all of the "Improved" feats as part of the class. It's a PRC that fits Naturally with a Monk, or maybe an Unarmed Fighter. I decided that, to be more interesting, I wanted to find a race that naturally gave bonuses to Wisdom and maybe Dex as well, but without Level Adjustments, since they can make things a bit harder for a character of this type.

Sorry for the longwindedness. So, Playgrounders, are there any "out there" races that would really fit this character type that you can think of?

Serpentine
2011-01-09, 08:16 AM
Huh... According to a list I found, the only +0 race with a bonus to Wisdom is the Tortle... Dragon Magazine #315 p72.
It's... a turtle-man. Extra armour, but only a 20ft speed.

The Tortle from Dragon Magazine #315 p. 72 is perfect! +2 Wisdom, +0 LA, and you'll be a ninja turtle!

AyeGill
2011-01-09, 08:19 AM
Huh... According to a list I found, the only +0 race with a bonus to Wisdom is the Tortle... Dragon Magazine #315 p72.
It's... a turtle-man. Extra armour, but only a 20ft speed.

seriously, how can you not pick that as your race. Speed might be an issue, but exchange monk for swordsage, and you'll be a frickin' Ninja Turtle!

Vangor
2011-01-09, 08:22 AM
Lesser Aasimar from PGtF. Rather than an Outsider (Native) they are a Humanoid (Planetouched), and reduce the LA to 0.

Greymane
2011-01-09, 08:22 AM
seriously, how can you not pick that as your race. Speed might be an issue, but exchange monk for swordsage, and you'll be a frickin' Ninja Turtle!

Hnnngggh! Now I'm statting up an anthropomorphic rat Swordsage and it's ALL YOUR FAULT. :smalltongue:

Serpentine
2011-01-09, 08:24 AM
seriously, how can you not pick that as your race. Speed might be an issue, but exchange monk for swordsage, and you'll be a frickin' Ninja Turtle!Point taken. Editing the previous post accordingly.

Kobold-Bard
2011-01-09, 08:26 AM
Anthropomorphic Bat is mentions a lot in Druid threads, I believe they fit your criteria.

Serpentine
2011-01-09, 08:36 AM
Okay, some other races with a Wisdom bonus at a +1 LA:

Death-Touched (Dragon #313 p. 166)
Aasimar (MM)

Hm. Not much, at least on this list...

Slyth from the Underdark book look pretty good, too, with a +2 Dex and Wis, but it's +2 LA. Is homebrew allowed? If so, you could peel it back a bit.

As an aside, I don't recommend it, but centaur would be pretty great to see.

Lateral
2011-01-09, 08:55 AM
Anthropomorphic Bat is mentions a lot in Druid threads, I believe they fit your criteria.

Second, if you want to go for something high. +6 WISDOM FOR +0 LA.

Adumbration
2011-01-09, 08:58 AM
There's also the Buomman, the obscure vow of silence race from Planar handbook.

Kaww
2011-01-09, 09:27 AM
JERMLAINE MM2. It's not really a playable race, but I think that most DMs would allow it. Stats: -8 str, +6 dex, -2 con, -2 int, +6 wis, -6 cha. Also you are tiny and you have a land speed 40! With weapon finesse and dex to dmg you can negate str hits to att/dmg. While maintaining awesome AC and hide.

Callista
2011-01-09, 09:40 AM
Hm, I think that if you get +WIS +DEX with no level adjustment, it'll either be unbalanced (in which case you don't want it) or will have major drawbacks (ditto). Just focus on one or the other. Or go Human. You can't go wrong with a bonus feat.

Beelzebub1111
2011-01-09, 09:52 AM
Hnnngggh! Now I'm statting up an anthropomorphic rat Swordsage and it's ALL YOUR FAULT. :smalltongue:
Use a Nezumi from Oriental Adventures.

Jair Barik
2011-01-09, 10:39 AM
JERMLAINE MM2. It's not really a playable race, but I think that most DMs would allow it. Stats: -8 str, +6 dex, -2 con, -2 int, +6 wis, -6 cha. Also you are tiny and you have a land speed 40! With weapon finesse and dex to dmg you can negate str hits to att/dmg. While maintaining awesome AC and hide.

Really? I would generally outright say no to Anthro bat, Jermlaine and Exiled modron. They are horribly min max races and generally awful fluff wise as characters. Jermlaine is a great example of this. With +6 wis a large AC bonus, increased speed allowing you to outrun certain enemies. It's a no brainer for many full wisdom casters, especially druids who can ignore the strength penalty with wildform if need be. The Jermlaine deserves to be ganked by skin kites.

Callista
2011-01-09, 10:42 AM
Yes, and horrible for role-playing. With a -6 CHA, they're practically autistic, and they don't fit into civilization at all. Imagine trying to buy an ale at the tavern with a Jermlaine PC! There's min-maxing, and there's just plain ridiculous. This fits into the second category.

Lateral
2011-01-09, 11:19 AM
Really? I would generally outright say no to Anthro bat, Jermlaine and Exiled modron.

The first two, I agree with (in a low-op campaign; in higher-op, they're fine), but why Exiled Modron? It's basically Warforged but with mental bonuses instead of physical bonuses.

FMArthur
2011-01-09, 11:38 AM
Vanara from Oriental Adventures get +2 Wis, +2 Int, but -2 Str. They have a 20ft climb speed, have low-light vision, get +4 to Balance and Jump, and +2 to Hide and Move Silently.

I don't believe having abilities totalling up to +0 is necessary for a balanced race, but I do think they have it a little easy compared to other (normal) races with bonuses to those particular attributes. I'd give 'em -2 Con and remove the skill bonuses or low-light vision if I were to make changes to them. Some Dragon Magazine writer seemed to think they could survive with their attribute bonuses removed in the transition to 3.5. But I'm fond of bringing races to the table that a player might actually want to play, so maybe someone who likes overloading their players with useless options would agree with them.

Wabbajack
2011-01-09, 01:13 PM
Axani (+2 Int +2 Wis) and Ice Paragenasi (+4 Con +2 Wis -2 Dex -2 Cha) are both in Dragon Magazine 297. Just make them lesser planetouched and they are +0 LA.

Zenythri are from Monster Manual II and get +2 Str +2 Dex +2 Wis and -2 Cha and are also +0 as lesser planetouched.

Axani and Zenythri are both lawful planetouched.

grimbold
2011-01-09, 03:38 PM
how about the PF dwarf?

Rasman
2011-01-09, 06:21 PM
Use a Nezumi from Oriental Adventures.

I'm actually glad you said Oriental Adventures, a Vanara isn't a bad race for this. -2 Str for +2 Wis and +2 Int for a base race isn't bad. They seem like Natural Monk type characters since they look like a "Monk"ey.


Vanara from Oriental Adventures get +2 Wis, +2 Int, but -2 Str. They have a 20ft climb speed, have low-light vision, get +4 to Balance and Jump, and +2 to Hide and Move Silently.

I don't believe having abilities totalling up to +0 is necessary for a balanced race, but I do think they have it a little easy compared to other (normal) races with bonuses to those particular attributes. I'd give 'em -2 Con and remove the skill bonuses or low-light vision if I were to make changes to them. Some Dragon Magazine writer seemed to think they could survive with their attribute bonuses removed in the transition to 3.5. But I'm fond of bringing races to the table that a player might actually want to play, so maybe someone who likes overloading their players with useless options would agree with them.

lol...exactly


Okay, some other races with a Wisdom bonus at a +1 LA:

Death-Touched (Dragon #313 p. 166)
Aasimar (MM)

Hm. Not much, at least on this list...

Slyth from the Underdark book look pretty good, too, with a +2 Dex and Wis, but it's +2 LA. Is homebrew allowed? If so, you could peel it back a bit.

As an aside, I don't recommend it, but centaur would be pretty great to see.

Aasimar for Pathfinder are actually +0 races, as are Tiefling. I thought about the Aasimar, but we already have one in the party and I'd want to avoid a Goody-Two-Shoes Brigade type of Bonding, not to mention they're supposed to be relatively rare.


Huh... According to a list I found, the only +0 race with a bonus to Wisdom is the Tortle... Dragon Magazine #315 p72.
It's... a turtle-man. Extra armour, but only a 20ft speed.

The Tortle from Dragon Magazine #315 p. 72 is perfect! +2 Wisdom, +0 LA, and you'll be a ninja turtle!

that could be the most hilarious idea I've heard. I MIGHT not play it, but I'm going to start an Oriental Adventures campaign in the near future and I'll HAVE to use it then.

true_shinken
2011-01-09, 08:09 PM
I'm actually glad you said Oriental Adventures, a Vanara isn't a bad race for this. -2 Str for +2 Wis and +2 Int for a base race isn't bad. They seem like Natural Monk type characters since they look like a "Monk"ey.

The 3.5 update removes the ability modifiers from the vanara :/

Rasman
2011-01-09, 08:20 PM
The 3.5 update removes the ability modifiers from the vanara :/

lame...I didn't really want to play a Goku anyway

Starbuck_II
2011-01-09, 08:23 PM
There's also the Buomman, the obscure vow of silence race from Planar handbook.

A dragonborn version loses vow so can now cast.

true_shinken
2011-01-09, 08:25 PM
A dragonborn version loses vow so can now cast.
And also gains -2 Dex, which doesn't really fit here.

FMArthur
2011-01-09, 08:56 PM
The 3.5 update removes the ability modifiers from the vanara :/

Well, lots of people don't allow Dragon Magazine content, or allow it very selectively. The 3.5 update was from an issue of Dragon Magazine, so normal OA Vanara are fair game probably for most groups. I know it's technically official material as of some date when Wizards acquired them or something, but it's still, to many, on a lower tier of 'officialness' than most other material. It's also damned hard to find all of it! :smallwink:

Rasman
2011-01-09, 09:13 PM
I actually stumbled upon an interesting race. Tengu from off the Pathfinder SRD. +2 Dex -2 Con +2 Wis, so pretty much exactly what I'm looking for.

Svirfneblin give bonuses to Wis and Dex, but with -4 Cha and -2 Str and Duergar also give Bonus to Wis and Con, but they're pretty must just better versions of Dwarfs except for having Light Sensitivity.

Tengu might be what I'm looking for, but the Flavor isn't quite there, I think. I'd much rather use something like an Aasimar or Tiefling because of how the World we're in works. Any other thoughts?

Thurbane
2011-01-10, 01:23 AM
Tengu might be what I'm looking for, but the Flavor isn't quite there, I think. I'd much rather use something like an Aasimar or Tiefling because of how the World we're in works. Any other thoughts?
I think Buomman might be your best bet...Planar Handbook: an extra-dimensional humanoid with +2 WIS and -2 CHA.

Otherwise, there is the Zenythri, the Lawful planetouched (MM2): +2 STR, +2 DEX, +2 WIS, -2 CHA, True Strike as an SLA 1/day...it is +1 LA though. If you use the PGtF lesser planetouched rule, you could trade being an outsider for +0 LA.

dgnslyr
2011-01-10, 01:30 AM
There's the slight problem of being unable to talk in a normal fashion. Have fun RP'ing that successfully.

Cadian 9th
2011-01-10, 01:55 AM
Yes, and horrible for role-playing. With a -6 CHA, they're practically autistic, and they don't fit into civilization at all. Imagine trying to buy an ale at the tavern with a Jermlaine PC! There's min-maxing, and there's just plain ridiculous. This fits into the second category.

Autistic People can be highly charismatic, if somewhat lacking in empathy.

Nothing Wrong with aging. A druid or wildshape ranger fixes this, either has pros and cons. For the OP's Purposes, a Very Old Wildshape Ranger would get +2 all mental for -3 all physical, which is enough to put a high score in Con to keep those HP high. Then, you've got full base attack, good skills and saves, and (if you sacrifice spellcasting for Champion of the Wild from Complete Champion), a modest number of bonus feats.

Callista
2011-01-10, 03:55 AM
Autistic People can be highly charismatic, if somewhat lacking in empathy. Trust me on this one: We have a huge charisma penalty. (Yes, autistic kids can be very cute, and autistic adults tend to look younger. But charisma has much more to do with people skills than with physical beauty.) I've been putting points in Charisma since I was twelve years old, and I still have a negative charisma modifier. Diplomacy, Bluff, Disguise, Gather Information, Intimidate, and Perform are all difficult if you are autistic. Only Handle Animal and Use Magic Device are unaffected. Empathy--if by "empathy" you mean "caring about other people"--has nothing to do with autism; autistic people care as much about other people as anyone else does. The only difference is that we have difficulty getting information about how other people feel (the Sense Motive skill, which also carries a penalty--Wisdom, however, does not; in fact, autism gives you a Wisdom bonus because autism often makes you incapable of ignoring most sensory input, so that you are much more likely to be overwhelmed than to miss something.)

Mechanically:

TRAIT: AUTISTIC
CHA -6 WIS +2
Sense Motive -4
Choose one Knowledge skill. This is your character's specialist subject. Gain a +4 bonus to this skill. At each level, you gain one extra skill point which must be used for this skill.
Your character can speak one less language than he would otherwise be able to speak. If this reduces your character's known languages to zero, you can put ranks in the Speak Language skill to gain the ability to use speech (either one or two points, depending on whether this is a class skill for you).

That's kinda what I'm imagining when I describe a race with a heavy Charisma penalty as "autistic". Though, of course, since they are not human, one would assume their charisma penalty is not a disability for them, since disability is measured entirely by societal expectations... (sociology lecture goes here).

Serpentine
2011-01-10, 04:38 AM
Empathy isn't so much caring about other people, as understanding what they think and how they feel. I mean, a highly empathetic person could make a better, say, torturer than an unempathetic person. Of course, understanding other people is a big part of both empathy and Charisma.

Not sure about the wisdom bonus? Seems like at least a small Int bonus could be in order, though.

Rasman
2011-01-10, 06:09 AM
There's the slight problem of being unable to talk in a normal fashion. Have fun RP'ing that successfully.

No offense, but I hate that argument.

It's MUCH more fun to play a character that can't speak. All it takes is some creativity on the player's part.

And thus was born the Thri-Kreen nicknamed Clicky.

On that note, the Zenythri with the lesser planetouched rule might be what I really want. Is it just Players Guide to Faerun, or is that rule from one of their other books?

Starbuck_II
2011-01-10, 07:14 AM
Empathy isn't so much caring about other people, as understanding what they think and how they feel. I mean, a highly empathetic person could make a better, say, torturer than an unempathetic person. Of course, understanding other people is a big part of both empathy and Charisma.

Not sure about the wisdom bonus? Seems like at least a small Int bonus could be in order, though.

I thought Empathy was just being able to feel what others feel. I don't think it has much to do with understanding their thinking: that should be another word.

Thurbane
2011-01-10, 07:32 AM
On that note, the Zenythri with the lesser planetouched rule might be what I really want. Is it just Players Guide to Faerun, or is that rule from one of their other books?
AFAIK, it's only PGtF...basically, it's more or less just one sentence, saying the Lesser Planetouched have the same abilities as their "greater" kin, but are Humanoids with the Extraplanar subtype rather than Outsiders. I think it also mentions how the characters interact with Banishment and similar effects...

Curmudgeon
2011-01-10, 10:10 AM
Well, lots of people don't allow Dragon Magazine content, or allow it very selectively. The 3.5 update was from an issue of Dragon Magazine, so normal OA Vanara are fair game probably for most groups. I know it's technically official material as of some date when Wizards acquired them or something, but it's still, to many, on a lower tier of 'officialness' than most other material. It's also damned hard to find all of it! :smallwink:
Dragon was a Wizards of the Coast publication from before D&D 3.0 debuted. When it was sold to Paizo Publishing WotC included a D&D license. Thus everything that's ever been published in Dragon magazine for D&D 3.x is official. It ranks above the FAQ and those Rules of the Game online articles, which aren't official. And by WotC's Primary Sources Errata rule, it even out-officials Rules Compendium.

Just something to keep in mind if you're trying to push through material in your game that's dependent on using 3.0 content without their official 3.5 updates.

Callista
2011-01-10, 12:30 PM
Empathy isn't so much caring about other people, as understanding what they think and how they feel. I mean, a highly empathetic person could make a better, say, torturer than an unempathetic person. Of course, understanding other people is a big part of both empathy and Charisma.

Not sure about the wisdom bonus? Seems like at least a small Int bonus could be in order, though."Empathy" is an unfortunately vague word. Both "Empathy" and "Compassion" are taken as synonyms, and you have to define what you mean by them before you use them. Actually, most of the time I will use "empathy" to mean "copying feelings" and "compassion" to mean "prosocial desire for other person", but I have to keep explaining exactly what I mean... it's annoying. I like my words to have one concrete meaning. But this is the English language, and if there's a more chaotic language I sure don't know about it.

No INT bonus, but no penalty either. Autism can come with all levels of intelligence. It's found more often among people who have INT penalties from another source, like say Down syndrome (25% also have autistic traits) or Fragile X (30%), but those penalties come from another source. I think the Knowledge skill bonus is enough to simulate it... However, savant syndrome does occur often among autistics (half the cases come with autism, the other half with developmental delay):


FEAT: SAVANT
You were born with an extremely specialized mind.
Prerequisites: Either 1st level AND the Autistic trait OR a base INT score of 6 or lower.
Benefits: Choose two of the following:
Language Savant: Speak Language is always a class skill for you. Each skill point you put into this skill allows you to learn five languages rather than just one.
Photographic Memory: You automatically succeed on Intelligence checks made to remember the details of something you experienced in the past week. You gain a +1 bonus to Spot and Search, but do not automatically succeed at these checks (they still require you to understand the significance of what you saw). If you have a Dexterity score of 12 or higher, you can also draw a recognizable image of anything you saw during the past week. Remembering things from more than a week ago takes an Intelligence check, but you gain a +10 bonus on this check.
Music Prodigy: You gain a +10 modifier to Perform checks made to entertain an audience with music. This does not affect any other use of the Perform skill. You also gain the ability to reproduce any music you hear if you have an instrument with an appropriate range, though this does not duplicate any magical effects which accompany the music.
Mental Calculation: You automatically succeed on any Intelligence check to answer a question involving mathematics. You must know (or have explained to you) all other aspects of the question.
Animal Savant: You instinctively understand animals. You may communicate with any animal you can safely interact with as though you were using the Speak with Animals spell. Even when you cannot safely interact with an animal, you automatically succeed on Sense Motive checks to understand the motivations and thoughts of animals. This is an extraordinary ability.
Artistic Talent: You have a natural ability to produce artwork. Gain a +10 bonus to any Craft checks made to create a work of art.

Hmm... now this makes me wonder whether statting up the effects of unusual brain conditions might be worth it; I mean, I've never played an autistic PC, but it could be interesting to do. Maybe if I have time. *glares at engineering homework*

Cieyrin
2011-01-10, 04:09 PM
Now I'm suddenly imagining Half-Orc Savants, their mix of heritage unlocking mental doors that would otherwise be closed.

On that note, this is kind of getting off-topic and should probably be its own topic in Homebrew, y'know? :smallwink:

FMArthur
2011-01-10, 04:33 PM
Dragon was a Wizards of the Coast publication from before D&D 3.0 debuted. When it was sold to Paizo Publishing WotC included a D&D license. Thus everything that's ever been published in Dragon magazine for D&D 3.x is official. It ranks above the FAQ and those Rules of the Game online articles, which aren't official. And by WotC's Primary Sources Errata rule, it even out-officials Rules Compendium.

Just something to keep in mind if you're trying to push through material in your game that's dependent on using 3.0 content without their official 3.5 updates.

Thanks for the correction. I didn't know through which manner Dragon Magazine could sometimes be both 3rd party and official D&D material and was a bit confused. But I already acknowledged its officialness regardless and was just pointing out that groups not using Dragon Magazine material (which are the vast majority, since most won't ever get their hands on it and so many others single it out as banned) can use OA with hardly any problems despite it being 3.0.

Cadian 9th
2011-01-10, 06:34 PM
Empathy isn't so much caring about other people, as understanding what they think and how they feel. I mean, a highly empathetic person could make a better, say, torturer than an unempathetic person. Of course, understanding other people is a big part of both empathy and Charisma.

Not sure about the wisdom bonus? Seems like at least a small Int bonus could be in order, though.

You can simulate empathy. Thinking about everything affecting a person and evaluate what they could be feeling against your experience with that person. It's worked for me, ableit I'm blind when it comes to new people, but so are most people.

I think that you're confusing Charisma with Friendliness, so to speak. Great Orators haven't given thought to all the people in the audience, yet, many would consider them to be giving a Charismatic speech. I believe this merits its own thread, (The Autism thing), but I'm unsure wether it should be in the Banter and/or the Homebrew.

On topic, Venerable Lesser Aasimar wildshape ranger 6+Your PrC with Extra Wild shape stays in wild shape 24 hours a day, and has +3 Int, +5 Wis, +5 Cha. Monk's belt (Can't remember if it stays in wildshape, regardless you could simply put it on in wildshape) to give you AC bonus, and Improved Unarmed strike as a feat to keep you on track.

Callista
2011-01-10, 06:36 PM
There's that broken magic item that lets you keep wearing a magic item when you're in wildshape...

mikethepoor
2011-01-10, 07:06 PM
If you're allowed to use Dragonlance content, you might want to look at the Keena subrace of human from Races of Ansalon. -2 STR and +2 WIS for +0 LA sounds like just what you're looking for.