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Man With Dog
2011-01-09, 09:21 AM
Heya Playgrounders,

I recently started a new game with a bunch of friends and I decided (possibly a bad decision) that as it was a continuation of an older campaign my previous character was leaving the group, and i would take a 1 level hit and go to level 12 for a new character and i went with Dwarven Defender.

Now, i had the level 13 starting gold and was able to wrangle a suit of +4 Armour and +4 Shield for free and had 110k on other items,
I took 2 x +4 weapons, one of defending.
+4 Amulet of Con (jsut for the HP of course)
+4 Girdle of Giant Strength

Featwise - I have the 3 pre-requisites (andhe is level 7 Knight, 5 Dwarven Def) I also have the feat that grants +5 armour to my allies if they are within a certain range and Power Attack.

Basically, i am not overly impressed with the character or what he can do.

Anyone have any tips i can try and get okayed before the second session?
Might have about 2 weeks at current guess to have him okay any changes.

Please try and help me make this toon not suck in comparison to the rest of the group. Make up at the moment is: Scout, Cleric, Mage and a Dwarven Fighter. All ridiculously kitted out

Psyren
2011-01-09, 11:19 AM
Basically, i am not overly impressed with the character or what he can do.

This is not surprising, as Dwarven Defenders are typically seen as weak.

They fixed the class in Tome of Battle (i.e. Deepstone Sentinel.) Do you have that book/is it too late to change your character?

Man With Dog
2011-01-09, 11:41 AM
This is not surprising, as Dwarven Defenders are typically seen as weak.

They fixed the class in Tome of Battle (i.e. Deepstone Sentinel.) Do you have that book/is it too late to change your character?

Its too late to change to Tome of Battle.
That is one of the only books not allowed - the others are pretty much allowed if we have or can find them

nedz
2011-01-09, 12:16 PM
Retire him and create a new 11th level char :smallbiggrin:

I don't recall ever seeing a decent build for Dwarven Defender.
Knight ought to be a goodish fit, but what Dwarfs really need is mobility, and Dwarven Defender gives you the opposite.

You seem to have lots of +4 kit?
This smacks of lazyness: its actually much more efficient to have more items with lower plusses. It does though, require more effort in research.
Items which enhance mobility are one option:
Speed, Flight and Dimension Door should all be possible and are useful in that order.

What else do you want him to do ?
It would be useful to know what your experience was when you played him ?
Just saying he sucked doesn't really tell us what you were expecting ?

Ernir
2011-01-09, 12:58 PM
What aspects of the character can you change? The feats? The items? The levels?

Eldan
2011-01-09, 02:01 PM
The problem with the Dwarven Defender is that it is basically a class that cripples itself. It's pretty much only class feature is turning immobile, resulting in enemies just walking, flying or teleporting past you and ignoring you until the rest of the party is finished.

That is, of course, a problem.

Psyren
2011-01-09, 02:06 PM
The problem with the Dwarven Defender is that it is basically a class that cripples itself. It's pretty much only class feature is turning immobile, resulting in enemies just walking, flying or teleporting past you and ignoring you until the rest of the party is finished.

That is, of course, a problem.

"Dammit! Get back here so I can use my class features, you crazy kids!"
...
"Fine, kill the Wizard, I'll wait. But you'd better get back over here. And you in the back, STOP shooting arrows past me!"

VirOath
2011-01-09, 02:18 PM
Actually, it really, and I mean REALLY depends on where you are fighting. In very tight and restrictive dungeon crawls the Dwarven Defender can actually be useful as a player that remakes the terrain for himself, or uses himself as a piece of terrain.

Really, it's just taking the fact that you are immobile and turning it into an advantage. The Dwarven Defender bonuses in it's own right is rather weak and can easily be replaced with Interlocking Armor (Races Of Stone: Gives an AC bonus when you move less than 10 ft that round).

Combining with the proper magic items and feats can really turn the character into a pretty big annoyance.

Deepstone does it better, and the concept is flawed outside of that tight and restrictive dungeoneering. So the idea behind the Dwarven Defender can work, but even then you are better off with the item rather than the class itself. Uses/day makes me sad.

Bang!
2011-01-09, 02:27 PM
Archery is the only way I can even envision a Dwarven Defender functioning.
I'll assume a mediocre Charisma, due to Dwarf race and lack of mention of a Cha item. That would mean a pretty much negligible Knight's Challenge DC.

Your best bet is probably to ignore all your class features and get polymorph somehow (ask a friendly caster/UMDer? buy a proteus skin?) and try to beat things up like you would with a really poorly-built Warrior.

nedz
2011-01-09, 03:02 PM
The only idea I have which might work is:

Get some means of enlarging yourself.
Get Combat Reflexes (and related feats)
Get Improved Trip (so when they come close they can't simply get away)

Get some mobility items, on reflection you probably need Dim Door.

Beginning of every combat:
Identify the best tactical position on the battlefield (lets just hope the enemy aren't flying shall we) and GET THERE.
Enlarge and take up a stance.
You are now a 10 foot radius peice of key terrain.
Your comrades MUST use this terrain to their advantage or you will be a spectator.

With a reach weapon you will be a 15' radius piece of terrain, but you MUST have some means of attacking anyone who is standing next to you if you do this.

Oh and swap your Con item for a Cha one. You are less likely to fail due to lack of HP than you are because you get ignored.

Oh and +1 to the Bow idea.

Ed:
Swap TWO of you levels for Fighter, you NEED the feats.

Pechvarry
2011-01-09, 03:02 PM
Featwise - I have the 3 pre-requisites (andhe is level 7 Knight, 5 Dwarven Def) I also have the feat that grants +5 armour to my allies if they are within a certain range and Power Attack

I have no idea what this feat is. Maybe you mean Allied Defense, which adds your Combat Expertise bonus to nearby allies?

I'd consider throwing Cleric 1 into your build somewhere (as much as I hate it). Grab Complete Champion. You'll be trading in a domain for the Earth Devotion feat and perhaps the Protection or Law devotion feat with your 2nd domain. More importantly, you'll use the turn undead attempts to fuel Earth Devotion and make lots of difficult terrain. With Dwarven Defender, this is sorta "DM's sympathy tanking". With them having to move slowly through the difficult terrain, you get 1 more round until your party realizes you're a terrible tank.

nedz
2011-01-09, 03:29 PM
I'd consider throwing Cleric 1 into your build somewhere (as much as I hate it). Grab Complete Champion. You'll be trading in a domain for the Earth Devotion feat and perhaps the Protection or Law devotion feat with your 2nd domain. More importantly, you'll use the turn undead attempts to fuel Earth Devotion and make lots of difficult terrain. With Dwarven Defender, this is sorta "DM's sympathy tanking". With them having to move slowly through the difficult terrain, you get 1 more round until your party realizes you're a terrible tank.

Knights Level 3 ability Bulwark of Defense sort of already does this, which was the idea behind Reach and Trip.

Ed: Well its been an hour, and everyone else has given up
I hate this build, Dwarven Defender is such a trap.
You pay a feat tax of three rubbish feats, and then your PrC class ability screws you.

Tactically you MUST close with the enemy and pin them in position. This is a good tactic; one of Napoleon's favourites. This is a bad way to do it however.
This build tries to use Dw Def as a controller.

Requires Int 13, Dex 13
1 Knight 1 Feat: Combat Expertise
2 Knight 2
3 Knight 3 Bulwark of Defense, Feat: Improved Trip
4 Knight 4
5 Knight 5 Vigilant Defender, Feat(B): Endurance
6 Fighter 1 Feats(2): Dodge, Hold the Line
7 Fighter 2 Feat: Toughness
8 Dw Def 1
9 Dw Def 2 Feat: Combat Reflexes
10 Dw Def 3
11 Dw Def 4
12 Dw Def 5 Feat: Curling Wave Strike

Talk to your DM
Try to see if you can swap Mounted Combat for something else ?
You are a Dwarven Knight so this is reasonable.
Try to see if you can take Improved Toughness instead of Toughness to qualify for Dw Def ?

Bulwark of Defense – If an opponent begins his/her round in a square threatened by you, he/she treats all squares threatened by you as Difficult Terrain for the round.

Vigilant Defender – Any attempt to Tumble adjacent or through your square to avoid an Attack of Opportunity
has its DC increased by your Knight level.

Hold the Line [General] (CWar p100)
You receive an Attack of Opportunity against an opponent who is charging and that enters a hex that you
threaten. Your attack is resolved before the charge finishes.

Curling Wave Strike[General, Fighter](Storm p92)
If you successfully trip an opponent in melee, you may forgo your free follow-up attack to instead attempt
to trip another opponent within reach at the same attack bonus total as the previous attack.
You may only use this feat once per round (i.e., if you trip the second opponent, you don’t get to try to trip a
third).

Normally for a build like this you'd want Mage Slayer too, but I suspect that it would be a bit of a waste.

You also need a way of becoming large (for the 10' reach) and a weapon capable of Tripping.

Man With Dog
2011-01-09, 05:18 PM
Knights Level 3 ability Bulwark of Defense sort of already does this, which was the idea behind Reach and Trip.

Ed: Well its been an hour, and everyone else has given up
I hate this build, Dwarven Defender is such a trap.
You pay a feat tax of three rubbish feats, and then your PrC class ability screws you.

Tactically you MUST close with the enemy and pin them in position. This is a good tactic; one of Napoleon's favourites. This is a bad way to do it however.
This build tries to use Dw Def as a controller.

Requires Int 13, Dex 13
1 Knight 1 Feat: Combat Expertise
2 Knight 2
3 Knight 3 Bulwark of Defense, Feat: Improved Trip
4 Knight 4
5 Knight 5 Vigilant Defender, Feat(B): Endurance
6 Fighter 1 Feats(2): Dodge, Hold the Line
7 Fighter 2 Feat: Toughness
8 Dw Def 1
9 Dw Def 2 Feat: Combat Reflexes
10 Dw Def 3
11 Dw Def 4
12 Dw Def 5 Feat: Curling Wave Strike

Talk to your DM
Try to see if you can swap Mounted Combat for something else ?
You are a Dwarven Knight so this is reasonable.
Try to see if you can take Improved Toughness instead of Toughness to qualify for Dw Def ?

Bulwark of Defense – If an opponent begins his/her round in a square threatened by you, he/she treats all squares threatened by you as Difficult Terrain for the round.

Vigilant Defender – Any attempt to Tumble adjacent or through your square to avoid an Attack of Opportunity
has its DC increased by your Knight level.

Hold the Line [General] (CWar p100)
You receive an Attack of Opportunity against an opponent who is charging and that enters a hex that you
threaten. Your attack is resolved before the charge finishes.

Curling Wave Strike[General, Fighter](Storm p92)
If you successfully trip an opponent in melee, you may forgo your free follow-up attack to instead attempt
to trip another opponent within reach at the same attack bonus total as the previous attack.
You may only use this feat once per round (i.e., if you trip the second opponent, you don’t get to try to trip a
third).

Normally for a build like this you'd want Mage Slayer too, but I suspect that it would be a bit of a waste.

You also need a way of becoming large (for the 10' reach) and a weapon capable of Tripping.


Short of making a new character i think this is the best bet i have - i havent playe dit very long so was hoping it gets better as i move on... but considering i take hi son level to the rest of the party and alot of gear - i mean their gear is currently insane.
Wonder what would fit with this party though.

Greenish
2011-01-09, 06:20 PM
Actually, it really, and I mean REALLY depends on where you are fighting. In very tight and restrictive dungeon crawls the Dwarven Defender can actually be useful as a player that remakes the terrain for himself, or uses himself as a piece of terrain.5'x5'x5' piece of terrain is a 1st level swift action spell for a wizard. Just sayin'…

Pechvarry
2011-01-09, 06:53 PM
Knights Level 3 ability Bulwark of Defense sort of already does this, which was the idea behind Reach and Trip.

The idea I was going for was that you'd use Earth Devotion to make rough terrain in a line away from you. For example, if you're in a 30' wide "choke" and you only take up 5' of that, you could position yourself 5' from one wall, and start your Earth Devotion rough terrain 10' to the other side. This means you would hold 15' by yourself (and all of those threatened squares are difficult terrain thanks to Knight), and then you'd have a rough terrain "wall" for the rest of the choke. If you can make enough squares of rough terrain, you can make it thicker to lower enemy movement rate for longer.

And then they'll fly over it.

Also nice: it's an immediate action.

VirOath
2011-01-09, 10:38 PM
5'x5'x5' piece of terrain is a 1st level swift action spell for a wizard. Just sayin'…

I'm not up to speed on every spell for wizards, I'll admit, for my own reasons.

But what i was meaning was using feats like Stand Still and Imp. Trip, using the idea of immobility on your own part in junction with a melee lockdown build to great effectiveness in tight restrictive spaces. This -can- work decently well to be actually contributing to the party dynamic in the right situation.

If you have more open spaces, high ceilings, or enemies that have massive movement abilities (Dim Door or Dig for example) then your only strength is completely locked down. Even so, the concept for the Dwarven Defender makes a great Door Defender.

olelia
2011-01-09, 10:44 PM
The only idea I have which might work is:

With a reach weapon you will be a 15' radius piece of terrain, but you MUST have some means of attacking anyone who is standing next to you if you do this.




Actually you would be a 20 foot piece of terrain. 10ft gets doubled to 20ft with a reach weapon. Shoulder spikes would cover the 10ft blind spot.

VirOath
2011-01-09, 10:56 PM
Actually you would be a 20 foot piece of terrain. 10ft gets doubled to 20ft with a reach weapon. Shoulder spikes would cover the 10ft blind spot.

Actually, remember that reach extends out from your square, reach is how far beyond yourself that you can reach.

So, if you are large sized that's 10 ft occupied, your reach is 10 ft on each side, and if you have a reach weapon with armor spikes, that's another 10 ft on each side. That's a massive 50ft square covered just by you.

If you can't be large sized, halve those values. But you would still end up with a 25ft coverage of denial. A small investment into Enlarge Person really pays off.

And if you can build yourself as planting a stake in the ground and going "Thou Shalt Not Pass!" then you can really abuse this coverage.

Gnaeus
2011-01-10, 10:13 AM
And if you can build yourself as planting a stake in the ground and going "Thou Shalt Not Pass!" then you can really abuse this coverage.

Abuse it against whom, exactly?

Flyers don't care.
Teleporters don't care.
Incorporeals/earthgliders/burrowers don't care.
Casters don't care.
Sneaks whom you can't see, don't care.
Ranged attackers don't care.
Anyone with a cheap, MIC item to let them ignore AoOs doesn't care.
Any group of enemies smart enough to muster their entire clan/tribe that you were supposed to fight in small groups and gather them together, then send half the tribe around behind you via a different tunnel to surround you and kill you thanks you for your efforts.
Melee supermonsters like Big T appreciate that there is someone willing to stand and fight them instead of flying up in the air and summoning Allips. They eat you in 1-2 rounds and then kill your friends. How did this help you exactly?

VirOath
2011-01-10, 10:17 AM
Abuse it against whom, exactly?

Flyers don't care.
Teleporters don't care.
Incorporeals/earthgliders/burrowers don't care.
Casters don't care.
Sneaks whom you can't see, don't care.
Ranged attackers don't care.
Anyone with a cheap, MIC item to let them ignore AoOs doesn't care.
Any group of enemies smart enough to muster their entire clan/tribe that you were supposed to fight in small groups and gather them together, then send half the tribe around behind you via a different tunnel to surround you and kill you thanks you for your efforts.
Melee supermonsters like Big T appreciate that there is someone willing to stand and fight them instead of flying up in the air and summoning Allips. They eat you in 1-2 rounds and then kill your friends. How did this help you exactly?

Again, take it in context.


But what i was meaning was using feats like Stand Still and Imp. Trip, using the idea of immobility on your own part in junction with a melee lockdown build to great effectiveness in tight restrictive spaces. This -can- work decently well to be actually contributing to the party dynamic in the right situation.

If you have more open spaces, high ceilings, or enemies that have massive movement abilities (Dim Door or Dig for example) then your only strength is completely locked down. Even so, the concept for the Dwarven Defender makes a great Door Defender.

Pechvarry
2011-01-10, 10:32 AM
Abuse it against whom, exactly?

Flyers don't care.
Teleporters don't care.
Incorporeals/earthgliders/burrowers don't care.
Casters don't care.
Sneaks whom you can't see, don't care.
Ranged attackers don't care.
Anyone with a cheap, MIC item to let them ignore AoOs doesn't care.
Any group of enemies smart enough to muster their entire clan/tribe that you were supposed to fight in small groups and gather them together, then send half the tribe around behind you via a different tunnel to surround you and kill you thanks you for your efforts.
Melee supermonsters like Big T appreciate that there is someone willing to stand and fight them instead of flying up in the air and summoning Allips. They eat you in 1-2 rounds and then kill your friends. How did this help you exactly?

Most of this is ridiculous. You could say the same about any tank type or, while you're at it, you could say this about any melee.

Gnaeus
2011-01-10, 10:34 AM
Again, take it in context.



But what i was meaning was using feats like Stand Still and Imp. Trip, using the idea of immobility on your own part in junction with a melee lockdown build to great effectiveness in tight restrictive spaces. This -can- work decently well to be actually contributing to the party dynamic in the right situation.

If you have more open spaces, high ceilings, or enemies that have massive movement abilities (Dim Door or Dig for example) then your only strength is completely locked down. Even so, the concept for the Dwarven Defender makes a great Door Defender.

But by the time you become a DD, you are already at least level 8. Almost everything you fight by level 10 can totally shut you down. A level 8+ build that gets negated by items costing under 3000 gp is really a waste. It is like having a character who can kill every ethereal stalker you meet, but is useless against everything else.

Adventurers have to fight outside, or in big caves, or the underdark, or on a ship, or in the air. Adventurers don't really need a Door Defender at level 10. Yes, the Dwarf Defender is minimally competent at doing exactly what it was designed for, standing in a back entrance to a dwarf settlement and blocking it, where you know the terrain, you can't be flanked, and your goal is achieved by just stopping the enemy from advancing. Even then, your entire role is better accomplished by any level 5 cleric who can just stone shape the passage closed.


Most of this is ridiculous. You could say the same about any tank type or, while you're at it, you could say this about any melee.

It happens to be true of most tank types. Especially core tank types, something like a crusader or warblade still comes out useful. Any melee, not so much. Something like a high damage charge build can still be relevant in high level play in killing many monsters, particularly if they have a method of flight. Offense beats defense by a pretty wide margin in 3.5. The key to being a useful tank in 3.5 is being threatening enough that intelligent opponents don't choose to ignore you. If you want tanks to be relevant (outside ToB), I recommend E6 (which also kills the Dwarf Defender.)

VirOath
2011-01-10, 10:53 AM
And if you just read what I've been talking about in the thread, I've been saying that the concept of the DD does work in the right environments, being immobile as a point of a build can work and be fun to play, but the DD itself is a poor execution of it. I even bring up the simple fact that Interlocking Armor from Races Of Stone does the bonuses better and frees you up from the class.

And where you fight and what the environment is depends on the group. It's a selective build that can be very effective in the right situations. Because guess what? I've played a 100% dungeon crawl campaign that was done to tactical combat in tight restrictive spaces, and a build similar to this for melee proved to be very, very effective for that campaign.

In the right game, in the right environment, it can be useful. And more important, fun to play. Outside of that, it's a wet towel. Saying it's always going to be useless is very very far off from the rarely useful it actually is.

Gnaeus
2011-01-10, 11:01 AM
And if you just read what I've been talking about in the thread, I've been saying that the concept of the DD does work in the right environments, being immobile as a point of a build can work and be fun to play, but the DD itself is a poor execution of it. I even bring up the simple fact that Interlocking Armor from Races Of Stone does the bonuses better and frees you up from the class.

And where you fight and what the environment is depends on the group. It's a selective build that can be very effective in the right situations. Because guess what? I've played a 100% dungeon crawl campaign that was done to tactical combat in tight restrictive spaces, and a build similar to this for melee proved to be very, very effective for that campaign.

In the right game, in the right environment, it can be useful. And more important, fun to play. Outside of that, it's a wet towel. Saying it's always going to be useless is very very far off from the rarely useful it actually is.

In a 100% dungeon crawl campaign, in which the DM consistently plays high level monsters below their superhuman intelligence, a Dwarf Defender may be as useful as some scrolls of Wall of Stone, or the Druid's pet. Even in a core party, it is still close to the bottom in terms of combat effectiveness and non-combat utility. Non-core is much worse.

VirOath
2011-01-10, 12:33 PM
In a 100% dungeon crawl campaign, in which the DM consistently plays high level monsters below their superhuman intelligence, a Dwarf Defender may be as useful as some scrolls of Wall of Stone, or the Druid's pet. Even in a core party, it is still close to the bottom in terms of combat effectiveness and non-combat utility. Non-core is much worse.

Read again. The design concept of the DD, not the DD itself. The Dwarven Defender is bad execution of that concept as it gives up mobility for a flat AC boost at the cost of levels and still limited by Uses/Day.

This point is something I am constantly making even by pushing that the Interlocking Armor out of Races Of Stone is a better alternative to the class.

Gnaeus
2011-01-10, 12:44 PM
Read again. The design concept of the DD, not the DD itself. The Dwarven Defender is bad execution of that concept as it gives up mobility for a flat AC boost at the cost of levels and still limited by Uses/Day.

I suppose it depends on how far you can get from being a DD while still being part of the "design concept of the DD". The farther away from "semi-mobile wall" that your "design concept" gets, the better it becomes. I will certainly grant that if what you are keeping is a high hp, high AC, good saving throw defensive warrior, that yes, a cleric can make an excellent tank, and can fulfill that design concept excellently.


This point is something I am constantly making even by pushing that the Interlocking Armor out of Races Of Stone is a better alternative to the class.

OK. Given.

nedz
2011-01-10, 03:20 PM
Actually you would be a 20 foot piece of terrain. 10ft gets doubled to 20ft with a reach weapon. Shoulder spikes would cover the 10ft blind spot.

I was assuming he wasn't enlarged at that point so yeah.

Actually Imp Unarmed Strike and Guisarme are a better combo - because you can trip with either.

Maybe he should take two levels of Monk[Passive Way] instead of Fighter ?
This would give him +2 Bluff, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, Flurry, Imp Unarmed Strike, Evasion as well as +3 to all saves. (The Bluff and Evasion are probably pointless, but its three useful feats instead of two)
It would cost him 1 BAB though: which would delay entry into Dw Def. So another level of Knight or Fighter.

Its still a rubbish build though.

Ed: scratch this idea - I forgot he had +4 armour

Keld Denar
2011-01-10, 03:32 PM
Bulwark of Defense only really works if your foes START in your threatened area, right? So someone with a high movement speed could just tumble through your threatened area to get behind you just fine, especially if they are starting from behind or to the side of you.

Stallion
2011-01-10, 03:46 PM
Archery is the only way I can even envision a Dwarven Defender functioning.
I'll assume a mediocre Charisma, due to Dwarf race and lack of mention of a Cha item. That would mean a pretty much negligible Knight's Challenge DC.

Your best bet is probably to ignore all your class features and get polymorph somehow (ask a friendly caster/UMDer? buy a proteus skin?) and try to beat things up like you would with a really poorly-built Warrior.

I don't remember the build exactly, but there was a fairly nice DD/soulbow build floating around at one point.

nedz
2011-01-10, 03:49 PM
Bulwark of Defense only really works if your foes START in your threatened area, right? So someone with a high movement speed could just tumble through your threatened area to get behind you just fine, especially if they are starting from behind or to the side of you.

Hence:
Vigilant Defender – Any attempt to Tumble adjacent or through your square to avoid an Attack of Opportunity has its DC increased by your Knight level.

And Improved Trip.

OK so its only +5, might catch a few folks out though, especially with -2 per square and lots of reach.

BTW I think the OP has deprecated this thread - see His new one :smallcool:

MeeposFire
2011-01-10, 03:58 PM
The best dwarven defender build has no levels of dwarven defender and is a straight fighter20. It is called the lock down fighter and it does it better than the DD ever could.

Link:http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19856162/A_little_Lock_build_for_you

Very effective at what it does which is to lock down opponents and then punish them for doing anything.

Keld Denar
2011-01-10, 04:07 PM
Yea...except the author of that build...has a tenuous grasp on the rules, and optimization period...at best.

The build does nothing to shore up a handful of potential vulnerabilities that it could otherwise do. It works ok if every encounter functions exactly the way the build has an advantage toward, but it doesn't work so well against foes using slightly more advanced strategies.

MeeposFire
2011-01-10, 04:29 PM
If you are going for a build that tanks targets its probably the best you can get. Whether you can make a spellcaster that blow up an encoutner with one spell does not change that.

Keld Denar
2011-01-10, 04:32 PM
The problem is, it doesn't do very well when a spellcaster wants to blow YOU up with one spell. It has no protective features that don't play straight into the "it attacks my AC while standing on the ground". Its 1 dimensional. Its great at that 1 dimension, but falls flat on others.

Its not a very well-rounded build. Period.

nedz
2011-01-10, 05:03 PM
I'm just amazed that no one critiqued my build :smallbiggrin:
But then, what are you supposed to do with DD ?

Gnaeus
2011-01-10, 05:11 PM
If you are going for a build that tanks targets its probably the best you can get. Whether you can make a spellcaster that blow up an encoutner with one spell does not change that.

No it isn't. Given how much effort it spends duplicating ToB stuff, it is pretty clear a Warblade or Crusader could do it better. A cleric 20 designed for combat can do it better. Monk 1/Druid 19 can do it better. PsyWar 20 can do it better, probably others.

It is, however, about as good as you can do with a fighter, and better than you can do with a Dwarf Defender.


I'm just amazed that no one critiqued my build :smallbiggrin:
But then, what are you supposed to do with DD ?

Throw it out and take a better class instead. Worst case dip a level of a spellcasting class, stick a wand in a wand chamber in your weapon and try to trick the enemy into thinking you are a sorc or a cleric or something else dangerous.

nedz
2011-01-10, 05:21 PM
Throw it out and take a better class instead. Worst case dip a level of a spellcasting class, stick a wand in a wand chamber in your weapon and try to trick the enemy into thinking you are a sorc or a cleric or something else dangerous.

Pretty much my first comment.

Pechvarry
2011-01-10, 05:22 PM
Yea...except the author of that build...has a tenuous grasp on the rules, and optimization period...at best.

The build does nothing to shore up a handful of potential vulnerabilities that it could otherwise do. It works ok if every encounter functions exactly the way the build has an advantage toward, but it doesn't work so well against foes using slightly more advanced strategies.

That's harsh. Frankly, I think you're downplaying a lot of what he did, here.

He half-optimized this, filling in unnecessary feats with weak ones. This makes the build easily personalized instead of a pre-fab build from Ye Olde Internet. It also meant it would be feasible to make similar builds with other classes.

I'm not saying I agree with everything he says (iirc, this was initially a "fighters can keep up" thing...), but give credit where it's due. he did well.

As for the build, in REAL settings, he would have a party. Probably with a batman wizard or some such. He'd be getting Enlarge Persons and other party support. Yes, it relies on some items, but welcome to D&D. So, teleporting next to as many crucial targets as possible and locking them down, making them unable to a) cast spells b) leave c) hit the Fighter himself (much) seems like a pretty potent build to me.

I'm not sure how an unoptimized crusader, using sword/shield and PHB and ToB feats only, would do any better.

Gnaeus
2011-01-10, 05:37 PM
I'm not sure how an unoptimized crusader, using sword/shield and PHB and ToB feats only, would do any better.

It also uses complete warrior (or arcane, which book is mageslayer line in?) and PHB 2. I'd always take the crusader. Better out of combat utility, free Heals, much better damage output and it can still take all those lockdown feats if he wants to go that route.

MeeposFire
2011-01-10, 06:01 PM
I agree with you in that a crusader is much better out of combat but it can not do the lock down as hard and since this was a thread talking about doing the dwarven defender schtick this guy does that (and admittedly only this) better than about anybody though there was a crusader/monk build that a lot of the same since it too got the double damage feature (and earlier too).

Crusader is probably better to have overall due to versatility of ability and role.

Gnaeus
2011-01-10, 06:16 PM
I agree with you in that a crusader is much better out of combat but it can not do the lock down as hard and since this was a thread talking about doing the dwarven defender schtick this guy does that (and admittedly only this) better than about anybody though there was a crusader/monk build that a lot of the same since it too got the double damage feature (and earlier too).

Crusader is probably better to have overall due to versatility of ability and role.

Crusader can lock down harder.

That build's lockdown feats were:
Stand Still
EWP Spike Chain
Combat Reflexes
Deft Opportunist
Mageslayer Line
Thicket of Blades.

Everything else was to try to get its damage up to a decent place. A human crusader can take all those feats and back them up with strikes that stun, AOE trip, Knockback, Immobilize etc. If you really wanted a couple of extra feats, Crusader 18/fighter 2 gets a couple of those for free while retaining 9th level maneuvers.

And assuming that part of the dwarf defender schtick is the ability to stay in combat while the enemy is trying to make you go away, Indomitable Soul, Mettle, and Zealous Surge all help you do your lockdown job without running away, as do some maneuvers.

Keld Denar
2011-01-10, 06:29 PM
Yea...one thing I never understood about that build was it was basically him saying: "my build is great because I don't use any ToB classes, but look at me spend a bunch of feats on Martial Stance and Martial Study." The superiority of it all stinks.

Its like saying you don't drink because its bad for you, but sometimes you do meth. If you are gonna use ToB, why halfass it? If you aren't gonna use ToB because you want to be a "purist" or whatever, don't cheat and take half of the good abilities from feats.

MeeposFire
2011-01-10, 06:34 PM
yes but your opportunity attacks are as damaging. The fighter and crusader/monk build had brutal opportunity attacks. Of course you have an advantage with being able to move and attack but thats always a TOB benefit. Trade offs though I tend to prefer to be able to move.

mobdrazhar
2011-01-10, 06:38 PM
why not dip a lvl of Psy Warrior for Expansion?

Gnaeus
2011-01-10, 06:44 PM
yes but your opportunity attacks are as damaging. The fighter and crusader/monk build had brutal opportunity attacks. Of course you have an advantage with being able to move and attack but thats always a TOB benefit. Trade offs though I tend to prefer to be able to move.

Are you a lockdown build or a damage build?

The crusader can do lockdown (better than the fighter), then White Raven Tactics whoever in the party is most effective at hurting the enemy, thereby giving them roughly 1 extra turn every 3 rounds of combat. It is a slightly different strategy, but no less effective at lockdown or (probably) damage.

MeeposFire
2011-01-10, 07:09 PM
Exactly a different strategy which is great. It also has tradeoffs such as less damage on op attacks (fighter is doing double yours). Further the standstill feat works off your damage (10+damage) so no your lock down is not as strong as the fighter. The fighter will have a reflex DC almost twice the crusader). Crusader has many benefits which I happen to prefer. I also know that the fighter build has a few advantages on its own, one of which being a simple build which is nice as those are few and far between in 3e.

Keld Denar
2011-01-10, 07:22 PM
one of which being a simple build which is nice as those are few and far between in 3e.

Simplicty for simplicity's sake is kinda a...wierd stance. I mean, on the one side, he's basically saying "look at me, look at me, I can make a purist build that doesn't use ToB classes", and on the other, he's using manevuer feats from ToB to cherry pick the abilities that he needs. Most groups that ban ToB ban it across the board, classes, feats, manevuers, all of it. Most groups that allow ToB don't tend to have a problem with a bit of multiclassing to grab Thicket and a couple of manevuers. His point just doesn't make a lot of sense.

Its just built on a flawed premise, like just about everything that poster writes. I've been around 339 a long time, and he's caused so many problems with his willful ignorance of so many things.

Gnaeus
2011-01-10, 07:28 PM
Exactly a different strategy which is great. It also has tradeoffs such as less damage on op attacks (fighter is doing double yours). Further the standstill feat works off your damage (10+damage) so no your lock down is not as strong as the fighter.

Crushing Vice, Earthquake Strike, Irresistable Mountan Strike, War Master's Charge, Entangling Blade and White Raven Hammer all beg to disagree.

MeeposFire
2011-01-10, 07:30 PM
Well regardless of the poster it still does what it does very well. Also crusader and warblades can not do what it does as well because they lack the feats. You can make very effective TOB characters but lockdown is not their best stuff though it is their stuff that allows to happen in the first place.

Second his point was more you can make a fighter 20 that is very dangerous more than a rant against TOB stuff (in fact he really likes warblades and did a good discussion on how they were not overpowered).

Since we are talking about dwarven defenders and that combat style this fighter build is probably the best representitive of that except for perhaps a monk/crusader, monk/fighter kind of build.

MeeposFire
2011-01-10, 07:31 PM
Crushing Vice, Earthquake Strike, Irresistable Mountan Strike, War Master's Charge, Entangling Blade and White Raven Hammer all beg to disagree.

You can not use those on your opportunity attacks which is the point of a lockdown build. I grant those are great to use on your turn but once you need to lockdown a target the fighter is better.

Gnaeus
2011-01-10, 07:37 PM
You can not use those on your opportunity attacks which is the point of a lockdown build. I grant those are great to use on your turn but once you need to lockdown a target the fighter is better.

No. The point of a lockdown build is locking an enemy down. You see, it is in the name, lockdown. It doesn't matter if you do it with AOOs, stuns, depriving of movement, whatever. If it can't leave to beat up your wizard on the other side of the room, and it can't cast because of your Mageslayer, you have done your job.

Given the number of cheap, easy ways you can avoid AoOs from movement, just preventing an enemy from moving often works better.

MeeposFire
2011-01-10, 08:07 PM
The point of the original lockdown was to stop people from escaping so you can force them to deal with you, achieved primarily with opp attacks.

Your crusader powers only work against one target for the most part. They also work only on your turn and do not punish the enemy which is very different from the original lock down. I am not saying that those are bad powers either.

Further what movement stops the original? Tumble, teleport, and similar stuff does not work if they are in the lockdown.

Most of the powers you have shown are not full blown ways to guarantee a lock down. certainly not as much as this build which makes sense since this is what it was built for. Especially in 3.5 where a target flying, being immune to stuns, or having fine saves in general are common enough to be a problem.

What are you trying to argue anyway? I already said crusader is a wonderful class with a lot of advantages. Just because it does not do this one thing as well as a fighter does not change that.

Gnaeus
2011-01-10, 08:33 PM
The point of the original lockdown was to stop people from escaping so you can force them to deal with you, achieved primarily with opp attacks.

And the crusader powers stop people from escaping better than the fighter powers do, so....


Your crusader powers only work against one target for the most part. They also work only on your turn and do not punish the enemy which is very different from the original lock down. I am not saying that those are bad powers either.

The crusader is getting EVERY AOO the fighter is. They just do less damage. The crusader, like the fighter, can also run the same build as a tripper, which isn't damage dependent at all.


Further what movement stops the original? Tumble, teleport, and similar stuff does not work if they are in the lockdown.

Tumble may or may not depending on your DM's ruling. Thicket of blades does not say it stops tumble. It specifically stops withdraw. It does specifically provoke from all movement, but tumble says that it provokes no attacks of opportunity, so DM call.

Teleport works fine too. You can't cast it defensively, but you can quicken a D Door or Benign Transposition, or use it from a wand. Mage Slayer doesn't hinder things from teleporting as a SLA (unlike, for example, stun).

As to what else stops it, Armband of Elusive Action, Chronocharm of the Horizon Walker, & Anklet of Translocation cost a total of 2700 gp for all 3. Swift invisibility is another easy one. Any cover or concealment, like a barricade buckler or a Shrunk Item Mantlet. The AoO method allows you to block the aoo or translocate out of range then run away, which you can't do if your movement has been dropped to 0.


Most of the powers you have shown are not full blown ways to guarantee a lock down. certainly not as much as this build which makes sense since this is what it was built for. Especially in 3.5 where a target flying, being immune to stuns, or having fine saves in general are common enough to be a problem.

Neither is the fighter, for all the above reasons. The crusader can lock down many enemies the fighter can't.



What are you trying to argue anyway? I already said crusader is a wonderful class with a lot of advantages. Just because it does not do this one thing as well as a fighter does not change that.

Only that it does this better than the fighter also.

MeeposFire
2011-01-10, 09:41 PM
1) Your crusader powers are not better. Crushing Vice and earthquake strike both do not work on flying opponents (and there are a lot of those). Irresistible mountain strike has an easy to pass save DC. White raven master charge and hammer are nullified by immunity to stuns. Entangling blade is nullified by high movement such as haste. On top of that being a crusader you do not always have what you need when you need it and extra granted maneuver is not a gimme as you do not have the feats left.

2) The crusader does not have the feats to do what the fighter does. By your own admission your crusader needs 6 feats. It actually needs more to be truly what it is but you said it needs spiked chain, combat reflexes, Deft Opportunist, Mageslayer Line (which is at least two feats), and stand still. Even at this you are at 6 feats so no you can not make a good tripper as that requires two more feats and if you are not tripping in conjunction with lock down you might as well not do it as tripping is not that good alone (I would say a normal crusader is better than tripping is in general).

3) Concealment is a wash as you have pierce magical concealment and there are items that remove problems with the rest of concealment. As for the items those are more rare than the situations that prevent you from lock downing with the above powers assuming of course you can not get around those items as well.

4) As a crusader you will not get the effective catch 22 the fighter is getting attack me aoo, move aao, stand still aoo, etc.

A crusader does many things well but it needs help to be better than this lock down fighter. Still I prefer the crusader as I can attack on the move unlike this fighter. This fighter build has weaknesses such as being crappy on the move, being not very good at out of combat situations, and being not very good outside of its niche. The crusader owns this build in these three areas.

olelia
2011-01-10, 10:20 PM
Its too late to change to Tome of Battle.
That is one of the only books not allowed - the others are pretty much allowed if we have or can find them

Why is there still even a discussion about Crusaders when it isn't even allowed :smallsigh:.

On track...the dwarven defender can't "move" when he's in his stance, barring the capstone. Does that include the Teleportation like anklets of translocation?

MeeposFire
2011-01-10, 11:51 PM
I don't know I guess fighters are not allowed to do anything well. If no feats are allowed from TOB (not just the classes being restricted) then even that lock down fighter will not work since the most required part, thicket of blades, is a TOB thing. Without the fighter cannot punish people that tumble.

The Glyphstone
2011-01-10, 11:58 PM
I don't know I guess fighters are not allowed to do anything well. If no feats are allowed from TOB (not just the classes being restricted) then even that lock down fighter will not work since the most required part, thicket of blades, is a TOB thing. Without the fighter cannot punish people that tumble.

3 levels of Knight can work as a poor man's Thicket of Blades in most cases - though it doesn't really help vs. Tumble at all except slowing them down even further.

sonofzeal
2011-01-11, 12:05 AM
The lack of movement from Dwarven Defender isn't actually as bad as it seems. A large number of fights end up being pretty static anyway, especially if you're fighting one big thing or can get a good chokepoint going. You just have to be strategic about when you use it, and willing to break stance if it's in your best interest. If it just boosted your AC/DR that'd be one thing, but it also boosts your saves and your Str. That's useful. It's still not a good class, but I think it's often unfairly maligned.

Oh, and it helps a lot if you're willing to use a reach and/or throwing weapon with it. That gets the most benefit, and minimizes the costs. It's still not great, but it's justifiable.

MeeposFire
2011-01-11, 12:35 AM
Actually you get the DR and AC regardless of being in the stance. That is nice. It would be nice if the stance could be replaced by something else.

sonofzeal
2011-01-11, 12:39 AM
Actually you get the DR and AC regardless of being in the stance. That is nice. It would be nice if the stance could be replaced by something else.
You get AC and DR all the time, but the AC goes up substantially in the Stance, as a Dodge bonus too so it applies against Touch Attacks and stacks with everything. The only thing I hate is that the bonus to saves is "resistance", which is useless. I have no issues overruling that, personally.

MeeposFire
2011-01-11, 01:09 AM
Neither would I. They need every advantage we can give them.