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kts2008
2011-01-10, 12:10 PM
Infernals get all the love these days. Not that they don't deserve it, but I'll always have a place in my heart for the champions of the underworld. So tell me, Playground, what do you like about the Abyssals?

My favorite bits are:

the dress code:smallbiggrin:
Lunar mates don't provoke resonance. D'awww. . .
the charm names. Blood Press Guillotine, anyone?
They were here first:smallwink:

tonberrian
2011-01-10, 12:19 PM
You know, there is an existing thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=172007) for this sort of thing.

The Rose Dragon
2011-01-10, 12:23 PM
KINDRED SPIRIT!

*hugs*


You know, there is an existing thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=172007) for this sort of thing.

If we can have more than one thread for a single edition of D&D, we can have more than one thread for Exalted.

FelixG
2011-01-10, 12:24 PM
I prefer Alchemicals

tonberrian
2011-01-10, 12:29 PM
If we can have more than one thread for a single edition of D&D, we can have more than one thread for Exalted.

That's an entirely different thing! Especially since we're discussing lamo Abyssals!

I kid, I kid. I love Abyssals, they're big balls of death-fun waiting to happen. I just happen to love Infernals and Alchemicals more.

kts2008
2011-01-10, 12:35 PM
Your'e joking right?

tonberrian
2011-01-10, 12:38 PM
Your'e joking right?


I kid, I kid. I love Abyssals, they're big balls of death-fun waiting to happen. I just happen to love Infernals and Alchemicals more.

White text is white.

kts2008
2011-01-10, 12:42 PM
well don't i feel smart now. . .

Terraoblivion
2011-01-10, 01:57 PM
Despite Abyssals being easy to imagine veering off into being utterly ridiculous, i can't help but like them more than Infernals. They come off so much scarier to me, from their purpose to their general atmosphere. If i were to guess it is that they aren't expected to act like Bond villains and because their charmset is a fair deal less silly. It's just hard to take a Scourge all serious when he's running around like a maniac.

tonberrian
2011-01-10, 02:04 PM
Despite Abyssals being easy to imagine veering off into being utterly ridiculous, i can't help but like them more than Infernals. They come off so much scarier to me, from their purpose to their general atmosphere. If i were to guess it is that they aren't expected to act like Bond villains and because their charmset is a fair deal less silly. It's just hard to take a Scourge all serious when he's running around like a maniac.

One (wo)man's trash is another man's treasure. I enjoy acting like a Bond villain, and some Infernal charms are wicked cool, like the whole Verdant Emptiness Endowment tree and Mind-Hand Manipulation and Murder is Meat and ...

Terraoblivion
2011-01-10, 02:22 PM
They're fun, i won't deny that. I just prefer something conductive to a serious story over something fun when RP'ing and i find the chewing the scenery and putting people into elaborate death traps detracts from that.

Xefas
2011-01-10, 03:49 PM
I also find Abyssals to be too silly for my games. They spend too much time styling their hair and complaining about all the homework and chores the Deathlords give them on their Live Journals.

"He was all 'Clean up your room, it smells like a rotting corpse' and I was all 'Gosh, when I learn Void Circle Necromancy, I'm so eating your existence' and then he was like 'Too bad, because as long as you live in my Death Manse, you'll live by my Death Rules' and then I was like 'pshah', so, anyway, now I'm cleaning my room. My unlife sucks."

And before you bring up the hair styling comment in reference to Infernals, I'd just like to point out that this **** is all natural.

http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad91/bluejanus/SlayerBroly2.jpg

TheCountAlucard
2011-01-10, 04:11 PM
Okay, I can't hold it in anymore...

(dies laughing)

You, sir, get a death-cookie. :smallsmile:

The Rose Dragon
2011-01-10, 04:16 PM
I also find Abyssals to be too silly for my games. They spend too much time styling their hair and complaining about all the homework and chores the Deathlords give them on their Live Journals.

You, sir, are utterly and completely wrong.

Abyssals complain about things on their Dead Journals.

Tengu_temp
2011-01-10, 05:39 PM
And before you bring up the hair styling comment in reference to Infernals, I'd just like to point out that this **** is all natural.

http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad91/bluejanus/SlayerBroly2.jpg

Why is Broly in Exalted? And why do I know who Broly is?

Xefas
2011-01-10, 05:55 PM
Why is Broly in Exalted? And why do I know who Broly is?

I dare anyone to watch the Broly DBZ movie and not pick out every single Infernal Monster charm + By Pain Reforged, By Agony Empowered, Pathetic Distraction Rebuke, Invulnerable Wounding Futility, Ablation of Brass and Fire, Nightmare Fugue Vigilance, Impervious Primacy Mantle, Solipsistic Rejection of Impossibilities, Insignificant Embers Intuition, Green Sun Nimbus Flare, World Weathering Incandescence, Star Piercing Spear of Glory (Essence 4+), and, of course, First Malfeas Excellency/Malfeas Mythos Exultant in startling clarity.

Also, in honor of this thread, my avatar has spent Essence.

So, for my own nefarious purposes, what paths do you guys think Abyssals will meander down for their "ascending into other stuff" stuff? Infernals, Alchemicals, Lunars, - hell Terrestrials have a path of ascension. I've already written Solar and Sidereal charms to this effect, but Abyssals are a different creature altogether. What will Abyssals become when they're more than just Abyssals?

The Rose Dragon
2011-01-10, 05:58 PM
Why would they have to be something more than Abyssals? No other Exalt ever becomes more than what they are (except possibly for Terrestrials).

Xefas
2011-01-10, 06:15 PM
Why would they have to be something more than Abyssals? No other Exalt ever becomes more than what they are (except possibly for Terrestrials).

I'm looking for the quote right now, but it was something along the lines of 'Every Exalt gets to the point where they can engage in some crazy bout of transhumanism/transcendence. Alchemicals become cities, we've written two paths for Infernals: Become a Yozi or become a Primordial+Exaltation, Lunars become chimera although we'd like to write a path of transcending that didn't suck for the Lunar quite so much, and Terrestrials become living dynasty-thingies. We just haven't written the paths for the other folks, but they exist.' if I'm remembering it correctly.

Drascin
2011-01-11, 01:37 AM
They're fun, i won't deny that. I just prefer something conductive to a serious story over something fun when RP'ing and i find the chewing the scenery and putting people into elaborate death traps detracts from that.

Seems we're kind of opposites there - I tend to not go too much for Serious Business, myself (or, at all, really. But of course, you should know already :smalltongue:). So, all the stuff I keep hearing about infernals seems interesting. I don't really like the Yozis, though, which is likely to prove a problem. Still, even with that handicap, they look more playable for me than Abyssals - I'd simply not wish to play an Abyssal.

Reynard
2011-01-11, 02:11 AM
I really like some of their Charm Trees (Melee in particular. I need those Ink Monkeys Mirrors for Dawn Solution soon, or I'll make them myself.), and my favorite way to hilariously negate the Malfean PD is the Abyssal Craft tree.

*Fingersnap* and the town is gone.

Xefas
2011-01-11, 02:25 AM
I don't really like the Yozis, though, which is likely to prove a problem.

That's actually fine, seeing as how most Infernals that actually get to know their masters don't really like them either. Creation is a place of startling ignorance, and any given Infernal is not likely to know the first thing about the nature of the various Yozi upon their Exaltation. Even if they're big Occult buffs, they're likely only going to know as much as "The victors write history. And the victors of the Primordial War said they're bad folks. The end."

And the greatest tool for the Reclamation to keep their rockstars helping out is to continue that ignorance. For gods' sakes, don't let them see the Ebon Dragon. It's not like that'll be hard either. Keep them distracted with enough Hegra LSD and as many Neomah as they can fit in their pants, and a mortal who has spent their whole life dirt farming and being stepped on by the hateful boot of their own destiny is likely to answer with "Yeah, okay" when their personal handler tells them "Yeah, those Yozi. Total saints. Now would Sir like some more gem-encrusted hookers n' blow?"

That's exactly why the Yozi gave them such a tiny lifespan, and exactly why dabbling in Heretical Charms is so appealing. Infernals are given power and then realize that it's got huge friggin' strings attached in the form of fat, smelly serial rapists, and so they immediately set out to find a way to cut out the middle man for their ultimate cosmic power. And they can. It's relatively easy for them - and certainly easier than Abyssals cutting their puppet strings.

kts2008
2011-01-11, 12:10 PM
ya, resonance sucks

So hear's a question: If you were offered an Abyssal Exaltation, would you take it?

TheCountAlucard
2011-01-11, 12:42 PM
So here's a question: If you were offed an Abyssal Exaltation, would you take it?Considering the alternative is almost certainly death, yes. Yes, I would. IN A HEARTBEAT.

And I would use it.

Tavar
2011-01-11, 12:47 PM
Some things are worse than death. And unless you find a way to redeem yourself(which is sure to be extremely difficult), you'll find that out first hand.

TheCountAlucard
2011-01-11, 12:55 PM
Some things are worse than death. And unless you find a way to redeem yourself(which is sure to be extremely difficult), you'll find that out first hand....and? :smalltongue:

Now, the real question is, is this "me as I am now, but an Abyssal in Creation," or "me as I am now, but an Abyssal in the World of Darkness," or "me as I am now, but IRL?" :smalltongue:

kts2008
2011-01-11, 01:12 PM
And keep in mind: If you say yes, you become an Exalt. The power that overthrew the primordials is now yours. Nothing can control you unless you let it.

Terraoblivion
2011-01-11, 02:53 PM
If i had the setting knowledge that i possess now, then i'd refuse it. Sure i would get power, but i'd also become a monster doomed to either not care about people or kill them because i care about them. Not worth it, even without having morality enter into the picture.

If i only had the knowledge of the setting that a random person in Exalted has, i would probably be tempted. It's an extreme situation where you don't have much time to think and the Deathlord in question is under no obligation to explain all the details, just the general idea. Still, i guess i'd refuse. I believe you're supposed to be told that you gain your power to destroy the world and that's not something i'd agree to no matter what i was offered.

Xefas
2011-01-11, 03:31 PM
Abyssal Exaltation? Yes, absolutely. Instantly, and in all circumstances (setting knowledge or no). I imagine the conversation would go like this:

---
(We'll pretend my name is Steve)
Bodhisattva: Steeeeve, Steeeeeeeve. You're dying, Steve.
Steve: Yes, thank you.
Bodhisattva: But I have an alternative. Would you rather taste death? Or-
Steve: Yes, the second one. The second one right now.
Bodhisattva: But I didn't-
Steve: What? Raped by bears for all eternity? Turned into an only barely sentient zombie forced to murder family and friends? Imprisoned helplessly in a chunk of metal used to forge an engine of destruction from which I get to watch everything I care about be annihilated?
Bodhisattva: No, I was going to say "Would you rather taste death or have crazy superpowers and immortality?"
Steve: Oh. Oooooooh. That's even better. The second one.
---

See, I'm not a sociopath. I recoil at the thought of harming any sapient being. But, if it came down to my death, and then I had to promise I would in order to get superpowers, of course I would. It'd probably take all of 5 seconds for a Deathlord to just hit me with some unnatural mental influence to catapult me into amorality, but then, at least I'm not dead. And there's a chance I may not even have to kill people...directly.

The great thing is that I have very little physical or social ability dots to speak of, but I at least have some Craft and Lore (and arguably a dot of Occult - I don't know what the real world analogue to occult knowledge would be. In Exalted, it takes a dot of Occult to know the names of the Maidens. The Maidens of which the days of the week are named after in many parts of Creation. Yeah.) so in this hypothetical scenario, I'd almost certainly be a Daybreak. Which means there's an okay chance I'll get to sit at home and churn out Daiklaives or Necrotech while everyone else murders people with the things that I make. And, really, can you blame the guy who made the gun for the deeds of the person who pulled the trigger? It's what I'll tell myself while I sit in my fancy manse with my necro-hookers and necro-blow. Which is still better than dying.

kts2008
2011-01-11, 03:40 PM
or, y'know, say yes and use your superpowers to stab the deathlords/neverborn/whoever you want in the face.

Tono
2011-01-11, 03:43 PM
If it was done like Secret's Exaltion in Keychain (http://keychain.patternspider.net/archive/koc0300.html) then I honestly think I might take it.

As for just smithing, in that situation its a little different then don't blame the guy who sold the gun. In this instance your making it not for protection or collecting, but pretty much for the sole purpose of killing things.

The Rose Dragon
2011-01-11, 03:46 PM
or, y'know, say yes and use your superpowers to stab the deathlords/neverborn/whoever you want in the face.

Yeah, good luck with that. Your powers are not really suited to destroying creatures of death that powerful.

a_humble_lich
2011-01-11, 03:48 PM
Also you do know how soul-steel is made right? Hint: it doesn't grow on trees with flowers and unicorns.

Tavar
2011-01-11, 03:53 PM
No...that's pretty much the definition of sociopathy. You don't want to die? To have life end? Cool, few do. But the minute you make a deal to doom others so that you can live, no matter what you say, you're a monster.

Ah yes. Forging things out of Soulsteel. Which, by the way, is made by folding the sentient and aware souls of beings into a torturous prison of ore from the labyrinth. Yes, clearly, that's a process that is totally non-harmful.:smallannoyed:

And that comparison is horribly flawed. You aren't selling a gun to anyone. You're taking a custom order to make a weapon for Baby-Killing Soul Eater, so he can kill more babies and eat more souls, plus kill anyone who would stop him. And you're doing it with the knowledge of what you're doing. So if you really want to use that defense, all it means is that you're a self-deluded monster, instead of an honest one.



or, y'know, say yes and use your superpowers to stab the deathlords/neverborn/whoever you want in the face.
Except it doesn't quite work that way. The Exalted have the potential to surpass all, true. The Potential. But the Deathlords have any abyssal, especially a new one, by the metaphysical balls. You can get away, but it's going to be hard, and there's a good chance they'll be able to kill you anyways. And from what Xelfas just posted, he'd not want to risk it.

Xefas
2011-01-11, 03:53 PM
or, y'know, say yes and use your superpowers to stab the deathlords/neverborn/whoever you want in the face.

Yeah, but I don't actually have stabbing aptitude (literal or metaphorical) and that sounds like a lot of work what with the Resonance and all. I think I'd settle for waiting for a Solar circle to bust into the Underworld and then chasing after them yelling: "Alright, I surrender! You've overpowered me! Now take me with you as your prisoner so I can learn the true meaning of friendship!" while I flail my already-cuffed hands at them. That's assuming I either had setting knowledge to begin with or that I attained some after I got there.

If I had no knowledge of redemption stuff, I think I'd be fine sitting in my death manse making engines of death. I'd probably take up pipe smoking and eating deep fried bacon at every meal. Y'know, enjoying my immortality to the fullest.


As for just smithing, in that situation its a little different then don't blame the guy who sold the gun. In this instance your making it not for protection or collecting, but pretty much for the sole purpose of killing things.

Yes, but I'd need a justification for my actions at that point. Unless the whole lifestyle had really taken a huge toll on my personality, I'd prefer to not think of myself as a monster.

Terazul
2011-01-11, 04:03 PM
Yeah, if offered an exaltation and I was some dude living in creation? No questions. Take it. Life sucks for mortals. You live in constant fear of superpowered beings flying in out of nowhere and wrecking everything you know and love, scrounging about for a meager existence. And when you die, you know what you get, regardless of what you did in life?

Nothing.

Just another soul tossed back into the reincarnation cycle, or maybe you'll be a ghost, or used to power some crazy machine or whatever. Either way, you'll lose everything you worked for and that made it yours. OR, you could suddenly gain superpowers and become one of those guys who used to come through your town every 2 weeks just blowing crap up. You don't gain anything by choosing the good, wholesome, moral answer of no. You have everything to gain by accepting. Even if it does mean you'll be some deluded monster. You'll be the alive, superpowered deluded monster.

Tavar
2011-01-11, 04:12 PM
You'll be the alive, superpowered deluded monster.
Decisions should not be made solely based on what's good for the individual, ignoring the huge costs for the world(and the individual).

TheCountAlucard
2011-01-11, 04:13 PM
Decisions should not be made solely based on what's good for the individual, ignoring the huge costs for the world(and the individual).Sez you. :smalltongue:

Terazul
2011-01-11, 04:13 PM
Unless you live in the Exalted universe. No really. It sucks to be a mortal.

Xefas
2011-01-11, 04:20 PM
And when you die, you know what you get, regardless of what you did in life?

Nothing.

This whole post, basically. There's no point in making the moral choice. If someone wants me to throw away superpowers and immortality for some kind of righteous ideal, then maybe they should punch an afterlife into existence for people that make that sort of difficult choice. The only problem is that anyone powerful enough to do that in the Exalted multiverse doesn't give a crap, which is part of what makes the setting so magical.

Actually, if I was a Solar, I might make it my sole Motivation to go and make such an afterlife mechanism so that morality has some kind of purpose. But in this scenario, I'm not. I get the chance to get Nothing or an Abyssal Exaltation. And Abyssals aren't terribly good at calibrating shinma into afterlives and what-not. So, I'd be a monster without any kind of morality. But, y'know who else has no morality? Consciousnesses that don't exist anymore because they're dead.

Terraoblivion
2011-01-11, 04:33 PM
The dead person wouldn't be actively striving to end all life, most likely in painful and horrible manners. Try taking a bit less of a solipsistic view of the issue and realize how many other people would be hurt just because you wanted to go on living. Morality is not about getting a ticket to posthumous joy, whether your belief system has that as an incentive or not.

Tengu_temp
2011-01-11, 04:40 PM
Yeah, if offered an exaltation and I was some dude living in creation? No questions. Take it. Life sucks for mortals. You live in constant fear of superpowered beings flying in out of nowhere and wrecking everything you know and love, scrounging about for a meager existence.

In addition to what Tavar and others have said, I'd like to point out that Exalted and other supernatural creatures are rare. You might spend your whole life not even meeting one of them, unless you live in a region where they're unusually common. And other than that, life in Creation isn't really worse than life in a generic fantasy setting.

Terazul
2011-01-11, 04:56 PM
In addition to what Tavar and others have said, I'd like to point out that Exalted and other supernatural creatures are rare. You might spend your whole life not even meeting one of them, unless you live in a region where they're unusually common. And other than that, life in Creation isn't really worse than life in a generic fantasy setting.

Yeah. And those are also pretty sucky.

So you deny the exaltation. You vanish into nothingness. Someone else gets offered it, they accept, decide to be a total monster. You stuck to your morality and have nothing to show for it. The world turns out more or less the same as it would have anyway.

At the minimum for accepting you get a second chance at life; Even without knowing about redemption you still have the control over the powers you're granted. And while it's easy to gain resonance if you're being haphazard about it, it's also easy to avoid if you're careful. I'd rather at least have a stake in what's going down than no stake at all. Even with a little dirty work on the side.

I'm not a total monster, honest! Just from an in-universe perspective, the benefits seem to far outweigh the drawbacks. Also if you're in the middle of dying at the time, it's alot more plausible to take the "stop dying" choice. Time's of the essence.:smalltongue:

Tengu_temp
2011-01-11, 05:06 PM
If you're moral then the knowledge that your continuous existence alone causes people to suffer and die would mean you wouldn't enjoy being an Abyssal anyway. Reincarnation sounds like a better choice here.

Terazul
2011-01-11, 05:10 PM
I suppose a lack of personal responsibility is one thing to gain, yeah. In which case, kudos to you.

I'd still rather take a chance.

Gensh
2011-01-11, 05:26 PM
I'd certainly take the opportunity to become an Abyssal. Almost anyone who says no has to be considering the problem from a detached viewpoint, however rational it may be. The Deathlord extending the offer doesn't have to tell you anything or can deliberately mislead you. You can't think of it as simply choosing to not be a soul-devouring monster; you have to look at it as being under horrifying, soul-shattering pain from wounds or illness and some mysterious voice offers to make the pain go away. Only a paragon of virtue or someone completely paranoid would consider rejecting that offer.

And remember, the last part of an Abyssal's training is being mindraped by a Neverborn (though I think they get a free pass if they're already a sociopath), so they generally have no qualms about doing their job.

Terraoblivion
2011-01-11, 05:41 PM
That is what my part about probably accepting it without the setting knowledge i possess. However, according to page 29 of MoEP: Abyssals, unless you vow to serve the Neverborn in destroying the world you won't get the exaltation. So it is not something you can walk blindly into. You can easily lack understanding of the full ramifications, but you can't avoid the most basic knowledge of your purpose.

Tengu_temp
2011-01-11, 05:42 PM
Since the question is targetted directly at us, I assume we have full knowledge of how everything works. Because we're read it in the rulebooks.

The Rose Dragon
2011-01-11, 05:48 PM
That is what my part about probably accepting it without the setting knowledge i possess. However, according to page 29 of MoEP: Abyssals, unless you vow to serve the Neverborn in destroying the world you won't get the exaltation. So it is not something you can walk blindly into. You can easily lack understanding of the full ramifications, but you can't avoid the most basic knowledge of your purpose.

The actual necessities of the Abyssal Exaltation are simpler: forsake name and destiny and turn back from the brink of death. You don't really need to serve the Neverborn - that is just something Deathlords throw in because, hey, that is what they expect from you. If an Abyssal Exaltation is free-floating and comes to you at death's door, it won't ask you to destroy the world (though it will still inflict Resonance and give you tools suited only to destruction, so you don't really have much of a choice).

Gensh
2011-01-11, 06:00 PM
That is what my part about probably accepting it without the setting knowledge i possess. However, according to page 29 of MoEP: Abyssals, unless you vow to serve the Neverborn in destroying the world you won't get the exaltation. So it is not something you can walk blindly into. You can easily lack understanding of the full ramifications, but you can't avoid the most basic knowledge of your purpose.

You may know that you're destroying the world, but to fully understand the ramifications of becoming an Abyssal, you'd have to be in your right mind, which odds are, you won't be at the moment of death. On top of that, most people will accept the deal because if they don't, someone else will; that is to say that the logic used by someone becoming an Abyssal is essentially a self-fulfilling prophecy, an inherent flaw in mankind's thought processes. Ironically, those most capable of retaining some form of individuality after the combination indoctrination-mindrape are those who would deny the offer in the first place. Personally, my accepting of the offer would be a big gamble, but given my history (which I won't go into), there's a glimmer of hope.


Since the question is targetted directly at us, I assume we have full knowledge of how everything works. Because we're read it in the rulebooks.

Honestly, that only makes things worse. The mindrape would lay any knowledge of the plot bare before the Neverborn, providing valuable intelligence. Nevertheless, I don't believe most people have the strength to say no. Heck, I'm not even sure if I could, but if I did have the will to stop and think about it, I would still say yes.

golentan
2011-01-11, 06:09 PM
Wait, a world in which things are unfair, difficult, and require crazy amounts of work to accomplish things which can be swept away in an instant by forces beyond your control? And to top it off, no known reward for choosing the moral action. OMG that's SO INCREDIBLY DIFFERENT from real life. Let's blow it up, it's not like anyone will care. It's not like we'd be feeding into the problem by that action. And it's certainly not like we'd be culpable, after all, guilt only matters if there's someone to hold you to account. (http://www.southparkstudios.com/clips/153967/how-could-you-feel-bad)

/sarcasm

That's why I hate abyssals. Not because they're evil. Because the justification for them, the ONLY justification I ever hear given, is that "They're not evil, they're just cowardly self centered jerks."

Death. Easy choice. When and if the time comes between "Put down your woes" and "Put your woes on innocent shoulders," I'm going out with a song in my heart. More than a little fear, I'd be lying if I said otherwise, but a whole lot more personal satisfaction.

Gensh
2011-01-11, 06:29 PM
That's why I hate abyssals. Not because they're evil. Because the justification for them, the ONLY justification I ever hear given, is that "They're not evil, they're just cowardly self centered jerks."

Death. Easy choice. When and if the time comes between "Put down your woes" and "Put your woes on innocent shoulders," I'm going out with a song in my heart. More than a little fear, I'd be lying if I said otherwise, but a whole lot more personal satisfaction.

Since it's White Wolf, they like to portray Abyssals as tragic antivillains, it's true, but that's not what they are by default. Abyssals aren't necessarily cowardly either; odds are, they're nothing more than ordinary people. Most people don't fully understand things until they've experienced them for themselves; they think that they'll have the strength to fight the good fight when the time comes, but the thing is that evil isn't obvious and people could already be fighting. They're not fighting now, so what makes you think they'll say no when offered semi-ultimate power? They'll just assume it's someone else's problem and accept that power immediately to fulfill their own desires.

Let's be reasonable here: even if my body survives as a result of the Exaltation, the person I am now will certainly die from the mindrape to come. Nevertheless, if I find that I possess the willpower to stop and consider saying no to the offer of power, then I would take the gamble and accept it in the hopes that the me that follows the mindrape will eventually become Batman. You don't have to fight the Neverborn to do good as an Abyssal; just use the unholy power of Oblivion to right other wrongs. If the current me had any choice in the matter, I would devote all my power to messing with the Ebon Dragon because that's a way of helping the Neverborn that doesn't involve too many unsavory actions.

Terraoblivion
2011-01-11, 06:33 PM
In second edition White Wolf generally portrays Abyssals as despicable monsters. They even go right out and describe ways adding realism to them will make them come off even more monstrous. Yes, there is the possibility of redemption and renegade Abyssals, but they make it amply clear that they are very much in minority compared to the ones who just love lording their power over others or simply love killing.

golentan
2011-01-11, 06:44 PM
I was more saying that that's the justification for "sympathetic" abyssals, whereas I find the "unsympathetic" ones much more so though still evil.

Like the batman idea. I can't say I agree with it, but saying that there's a larger cause worth the risk is something I can admire. Preferably through the sights of some weapon involving the words "thousand" and "dragon," but still.

Tavar
2011-01-11, 09:16 PM
I was more saying that that's the justification for "sympathetic" abyssals, whereas I find the "unsympathetic" ones much more so though still evil.
Partially agree. Though there can be room for sympathetic/heroic abyssal, those must by nature seek to become something other than an abyssal.

Like the batman idea. I can't say I agree with it, but saying that there's a larger cause worth the risk is something I can admire. Preferably through the sights of some weapon involving the words "thousand" and "dragon," but still.

Huh? I might be uninformed, but I don't get what you mean. Well, besides the reference to Thousand-Forged Dragons.

Guancyto
2011-01-11, 11:25 PM
I was writing a little tagline for a character earlier. It seems appropriate here.

What answer did she find that caused her to abandon her master and strike out on her own, this most dedicated of Abyssals?

The Neverborn are too attached to Creation, this much is true. Such a mighty fetter most certainly holds them bound from falling into Oblivion. Yet this is not the only way. A Ghost can enter Lethe or Oblivion with its fetters completely intact. The Neverborn are too attached to Creation, for they still believe that it can fall by their power. Their greatest enemy, then, is hope.

This must turn to ash, and if there is anything the Chosen of the Void are good at, it is destroying hope. For the sake of the Neverborn and for the sake of Creation, Laughter Amidst Mourning will laugh - not through the end of Creation, but at the very idea that such is possible. She will show them that their creations have surpassed them utterly, and that in some form or another, mortal or ghost, alive or dead, Creation and its people will never be destroyed.

For the sake of all that is, was and will ever be, she will show them despair.

Honestly, the Ink Monkeys bit on Independent Abyssals and their new charms emphasizing their role as rulers of the dead have made me enjoy them a lot more.