[3.5] Paladin of Wee Jas

[Callista]

I think I just got myself in slightly over my head, RP-wise...

Here's what happened. Got to the game and it turns out we're switching DMs and I've got to stat up a new character because the old one's too high level. There's a guy in the group playing a LN cleric of Wee Jas, which is pretty cool, so I figure, hey, what about a paladin of Wee Jas? After all, if she's sent one follower, why not two? A backup healer/meat shield wouldn't be too bad.

But now I'm somewhat stumped. I want a decent background. Wee Jas is the goddess of death and magic; why would she want paladins? She does, of course, have LG clerics, but a paladin is LG-only.

Stats are 12 STR, 10 DEX, 14 CON, 10 INT, 13 WIS, 14 CHA. Level 3.

My thoughts on the mismatch issue:

-Wee Jas is the goddess of magic; but my character has a 10 INT and would make a horrible arcane spellcaster. Maybe she's more of a magic fangirl?

-On the other hand, the Lawful aspect of Wee Jas works just fine; keeping order is something any paladin would do.

-Respect for those who have died before you is very much in line with Wee Jas-style theology. Because a paladin draws power from the upper planes rather than directly from their deity, and because LG-aligned souls eventually merge into their aligned planes, she is essentially drawing power from the faith and wisdom of all the paladins who have gone before her. I like this concept and want to do something with it.

-With Wee Jas being the goddess of magic/knowledge, maybe my character could have some sort of focus on protecting knowledge/magic?

-Re. Death domain: Usually, Good-aligned characters are pretty much into protecting life. How do you focus on death and protect life at the same time?

-I'd like to work this in somehow: Since my character will be unusually conscious of death, I would like her to have an outlook that involves having a goal to die with no regrets about how she lived. I'm considering having her be raised by a grandmother who taught her this and having my character witness her grandmother's death--I'm torn over whether to have her be a good or a bad example, though.

-Paladin question: Under what circumstances can a paladin act as an executioner? (We are of course assuming that the target of said execution deserves death.)

I'm also getting mixed input about Wee Jas and undead. On the one hand, clerics of Wee Jas will channel negative energy unless they're outright Good-aligned, and understanding undeath is one of their goals. On the other hand, it doesn't look like she condones the creation (or unwilling creation) of undead (at least sentient ones).

So... Does anybody have advice for playing this character? Character background? Experiences?

[hamishspence]

Paladin question: Under what circumstances can a paladin act as an executioner? (We are of course assuming that the target of said execution deserves death.)

When they've been given the authority to do so, probably plays a part.

As a LN deity with LE followers (whose LN clerics can only Rebuke Undead rather than turn them- technically an Evil act by PHB), a paladin of Wee Jas may need to compromise to cope with the rest of the clergy.

"will not associate with someone who consistantly offends against his moral code"
and
"will not associate with beings with an evil alignment"

may end up being defined rather generously- or using the "will not associate on a continuing basis" version from Defenders of the Faith.

So, a paladin of Wee Jas, while LG, may be more flexible than the average paladin.

[holywhippet]

Problem is, Wee Jas cares more about the law than morality - so if something is legal but immoral she has no problems with it. That really doesn't line up with a paladin's code of conduct.

Wee Jas is ok with undead being created, as long as the person being made into an undead consents. I'd expect a paladin of hers to go hunting people who make undead against their will.

I'd say a paladin could be an executioner as long as someone has been legally tried an sentenced to death.

[Kaulesh]

-Re. Death domain: Usually, Good-aligned characters are pretty much into protecting life. How do you focus on death and protect life at the same time?

-I'd like to work this in somehow: Since my character will be unusually conscious of death, I would like her to have an outlook that involves having a goal to die with no regrets about how she lived. I'm considering having her be raised by a grandmother who taught her this and having my character witness her grandmother's death--I'm torn over whether to have her be a good or a bad example, though.

I don't like speaking of real-world religions on here, but this sounds very Buddhist. We all die sometime. Don't make living harder than it already is.

[Waker]

There is an article in Dragon 350 that can help give you more ideas on Wee Jas. Always nice to know some of the history of a deity and her clergy.

The following is just an example of possible roleplaying. This is not an iron-clad representation of a Wee Jas Paladin.

As a Paladin of Death's Guardian, you could be a stern (not stick up the keister) and somber champion. You do not fear death, but you are not eager to rush into your Lady's embrace. In addition to the usual knightly roles that a Paladin might be expected to perform, you have an especially keen interest in the defense of the graves and prevention of undead creation. Even if you do not practice arcane magic yourself, your religious views have given you a greater deal of respect for mages, whereas other Paladins may frown upon such practices.

[Kuma Kode]

Instead of taking a good paladin and making it more friendly to evil, why not take a Paladin of Tyranny (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#paladinVariantsFreedom SlaughterAndTyranny) and make it more friendly to good? That also would get rid of the problem of Wee Jas clerics channeling negative energy, but you somehow still get positive energy.

[Callista]

LG clerics of Wee Jas channel positive energy, though. So that's not actually such an issue.

[hamishspence]

Dragon Magazine's Despot (one of 8 variant paladins), is a possible example of a "less evil LE paladin"- instead of falling for Evil acts, they fall for Chaotic acts- and instead of radiating a strong aura of Evil, they radiate a strong aura of Law.

That said- the point I was making- is that even a LG paladin of Wee Jas- will have to accept that there are LE clerics, and worshippers, in the group.

As well as LN clerics that regularly do evil acts (though I would suspect Rebuke is very minor- might not even rate 1 point on the Corruption scale).

[bloodtide]

Death and magic do go together nicely.


1.The paladin is a force for good magic. The paladin does not use arcane magic himself, but supports those that do. Guarding a wizard or helping a wizard fight a foe, for example.

2.The paladin is on the look out of magic being used badly. Such as someone using charms or illusions to make money. Even more so, the paladin is judge, jury and executioner for truly evil magic. If a paladin sees a wizard summon dark horror form the Far Realm he will attack immediately. And kill the wizard and destroy the evil spellbook with the summoning spell. This goes the same for evil artifacts and magic items.

3.The paladin is on the watch out for general magic abuse. Often where magic might make a fight unfair. The paladin will step into even things out.

4.The paladin is on the look out for those that harm magic and it's users. The king who arrests all the mages, for example. He will attempt to help them see the error of their ways. But things like magic bounty hunters will just be killed.

5.The paladin is on a life quest, to find as much magic(creatures, spells, items) as possible and get them into the 'right hands'...that is other followers of WJ.


For your end goal....to sacrifice himself to stop an evil magic monster, destroy and evil artifact or evil spell all fit nicely.

[Callista]

Doesn't have to be sacrifice--dying of old age years after having done something particularly epic counts too. :)

I don't think that a paladin of Wee Jas would hesitate to do that sort of thing, though, if it were necessary.

I like the Buddhist concept... *goes off to leaf through philosophy textbook*

[Keld Denar]

I love the idea. Wee Jas is a neat deity, and I can see tons of interesting RP interactions rising.

I've always seen Wee Jas as being anti-undead. Death is something to be enbraced, something final. Unlife is the denial of true deah. Being that clerics of Wee Jas channel negative energy, they do so with the intent to intimidate undead with the powers of true death. Granted, this doesn't make a whole lot of sense with the control aspect of rebuking, but I could see a Wee Jasian cleric who successfully controls an undead giving it self-destructive orders, possibly after using it to destroy others of its own kind.

As far as building, you could have a lot of fun with a Pal4/Crusader1/RubyKnightVindicator10 build, or a Paladin5/Greyguard10 build. Greyguard (CScound) loosens up the code of conduct a little, giving you a bit more flexability to persue Law above all else. RKV is a fun little PrC that, while REALLY strong on a cleric chassis, it mearly decent on a Pally chassis. Combine with the Battle Blessing feat in CChampion for swift combat buffage. Also, a Sorcadin would be a great build for a Wee Jasian paladin. Same great paladin flavor, now with arcane spells! Nothing says you can't tell people that your arcane spells are a gift from your diety, a matron of magic, cause hey, they probably are!

[woodenbandman]

Maybe your accute sense of death will cause you to consider your actions more carefully. Death is a serious thing, especially if you worship the goddess of death, so you probably wouldn't kill people lightly (and you wouldn't have a concept of "deserving" to die because everybody dies and it's always serious to kill someone).

[Fouredged Sword]

Paladin 5 / sorrcerer x / warweaver

Mix with high bab arcane casting PrC's. You are a arcane spellcasting gish of the death god. You superbuff the party and ride around on your buffed up horse with haste, shield and giant's strength going at once in combat.

[Cerlis]

I think your backstory would be one who loved magic and had mage friends but found she couldnt grasp it herself. as she saw certian things (one sec) she decided if she couldnt use magic she would protect those who could.

-She doesnt have the wits required for such complex magic, but Wee Jas has seen her try to protect her people and she gets her magic directly from Wee Jas (divine magic)

-Often it is people of her own dictum (paladins and Clerics) who persecute mages and other casters. Paranoid about the "unnatural" magic Mages of various sorts are usually blamed first and she seeks to stop unrighteous persecution and education people about the differences between various forms of magic

-as such she also takes it upon herself to weed out those who do use arcane magic for evil and put a stop to them. I dont know if Wee jas would 100% agree with this, but i'd think she'd be ok with letting someone get rid of those who risk magic as a whole (by giving mages a bad name)

-A reverence of death has nothing to do with an obsession with killing or undeath. In fact I think Wee Jass was either recreated or rivaled by the Raven Goddess in 4.0 who i think saw Undeath as an abomination of true death (probably wrong). Your character might go as far as letting someone enter undeath if they did it willingly and FULL KNOWLEDGE of the consequences. but souls being trapped unwillfully in their corpses by evil doers? Head NEcromancers seducing curious apprentices into dark arts?
Your character is a champion of knowledge and correct use of magic for the betterment of knowledge, understanding, and reverence of those who have passed on (possibly alot of that reverence comes from the knowledge (of any kind) the dead possessed and the accomplishments of them)

[Telonius]

This is a case where I'd talk to your DM to see if you can get a modified version of the Paladin. My suggestion: Require it to be LN, just like Wee Jas; then in the abilities, cross out "good" and write "law," cross out "evil" and write "chaos." It's not like it's going to overpower the Paladin.

Failing that, maybe go for Knight instead of Paladin? It's less restrictive, but still has the "honorable code" thing going.

For roleplaying it, I'd say that a lot of the others have some very good suggestions. Death is not evil per se, it's a natural part of life. But trying to cause death earlier than it's supposed to happen, or trying to avoid it altogether, is an affront to the Goddess and a subversion of the natural order.

[Keld Denar]

Dude, you should play a GI Joe! Knowing is half the battle! And the other half? VIOLENCE!

[Godskook]

Paladin of Wee Jas is an odd fit, I'll agree, but if you're willing to adjust your "class fluff" some, I can suggest a few other classes that would work well. Crusader X/Swordsage 2 grants you a semi-arcane feel(swordsage) while still retaining a primarily Paladin-esque(crusader) in base class choice.

And then there's Crusader X/Cleric Y/Ruby Knight Vindicator, which is explicitly a Wee Jas build. Don't abuse Divine Impetus(talk to your DM about capping it to 1/round or something similar). Otherwise a solid build regardless of how much cleric versus crusader you want to start with.

Finally, would you be open to a Lawful Incarnate? Alignment-wise, right up Wee Jas' alley, and Lawful provides that semi-tank role you're sounding like you want to play.

[Urpriest]

Wee Jas is also a goddess of beauty and vanity (this isn't thoroughly mentioned in the PHB, but later sources like the aforementioned Dragon article go deeper into it). Much like a paladin of Sune from Forgotten Realms, you value ideals of courtly love and the protection of beautiful works of art. You want to control the world around you and keep those you love safe, but the world is a tempestuous place and you must sometimes practice detachment in order to keep strong. Everyone must die at their appointed time, and your job is to make sure that none die before that time.

[hamishspence]

Yup.

The question is- are you playing a paladin who happens to worship Wee Jas- or do you want someone much closer to Wee Jas's ethos?

If the "LG paladin" bit is important- is the DM open to a fairly loose interpretation of the code- allowing the paladin to not jump on fellow party members for every minor evil act?

Maybe, stress that:

The code says "Punish Those That Harm or Threaten Innocents"- not Punish those that commit Evil Acts"

so to speak.

[Dr.Epic]

I actually had an idea a while back for a "cult" of clerics who worshiped death. Their belief was death is a one way door and undead are abominations. I'm not sure that fits with Wee Jas, but you could ask you DM to reinterpret the character for the sake of the campaign: have her be sort of the personification of the natural order: living organism all die at some point and do not return.

That's all I got.

[Ferrin]

Wouldn't a crusader fit the lore-part better then a paladin? Both are champions of a cause, the crusader is just without a stick-up-the-ass code. (and a better class in general) If you still want her to be able to use a bit of magic you can get into the Ruby Knight Vindicatior PRC, also from Tome of Battle.

Much better in my opinion, though I never liked the mechanics of the core paladin.

[molten_dragon]

If you like the fluff of a paladin but aren't tied to the actual class, you should look into a crusader. They have a lot of the flavor of paladin but don't have to be lawful good, and are more powerful. there is even a prestige class called ruby knight vindicator that is a holy knight of wee jas. You should definitely look into it.

[Zeful]

So... Does anybody have advice for playing this character? Character background? Experiences?

Well, consider: death is inevitable. Everything eventually dies, but one shouldn't let that fact get in the way of living life to it's fullest. You can totally play an upbeat, borderline hedonistic character, who reveres both life and it's natural end. Or you could play a somber idealist who frowns at the waste of life inherent in banditry and wars. But some general thoughts would be to give enemies proper burials, let them keep some dignity in death (like leave them in their clothes/weapons, or give them your old gear if theirs is better) so they can face their afterlife/god with dignity.

Background is a little more difficult and less difficult at the same time. Think about why someone would be called into the service of a god of death, maybe a wanna-be necromancer tried to attack your village and you somehow fought back against his weak undead servants, winning without even having any knowledge of how to fight. Maybe you're parents/community were servants of Wee Jas and when the call found you, you went to serve the god you knew all your life


Yup.

The question is- are you playing a paladin who happens to worship Wee Jas- or do you want someone much closer to Wee Jas's ethos?

If the "LG paladin" bit is important- is the DM open to a fairly loose interpretation of the code- allowing the paladin to not jump on fellow party members for every minor evil act?

Maybe, stress that:

The code says "Punish Those That Harm or Threaten Innocents"- not Punish those that commit Evil Acts"

so to speak.

So people seriously still play paladin's like a very naggy team mom?

[hamishspence]

Or worse- a violent Team Mom who makes it clear they're willing to thwart even minor evil acts, even by party members, with force.

That said, I suspect it's on the rare side these days.

[Sinfonian]

I'm kind of surprised that no one has suggested Sword of the Arcane Order for this character. It may be a FR specific feat, but it seems a particularly good fit for a paladin of Wee Jas.

[Callista]

Well, most of the paladins I've seen played were simply decent people with a set of class abilities that let them focus on taking out evil.

And yeah, I'm already playing a LG paladin, so no chance to rebuild. Well, I guess there would be if I found it was totally non-viable, but as is obvious from the advice above, it's not impossible at all and could be quite interesting. I think I like the oddity of it, now that I've had the chance to turn it over in my mind.

A paladin has a divine patron; but she isn't actually an avatar of her deity. She has to respect her deity, be loyal to her deity, obey orders, agree with her deity's precepts, etc.; after all, why else would she be serving that deity?--but she can have an agenda beyond just that. That extra agenda would be the Good aspect of this particular paladin's alignment--her desire to solve problems, help others, protect the innocent, all that. The idea of knowledge as something to be protected, collected, and treasured, as well as the idea of death in its proper time as a natural and almost beautiful thing, is something that any paladin can believe in--unusual, maybe, but still compatible with Good.

I can definitely see the paladins of Wee Jas, especially trainees, serving as hospice workers and funeral directors. Helping the dying and their next of kin accept and understand death is exactly the combination of Good and Law that a paladin of Wee Jas would want. If no one cares for them, then the elderly and the dying will take their knowledge and experiences with them to the grave, rather than passing it on to the people they leave behind. Perhaps paladins of Wee Jas have a focus on integrating the legacy of the dead into the world of the living.

[hamishspence]

A paladin has a divine patron; but she isn't actually an avatar of her deity. She has to respect her deity, be loyal to her deity, obey orders, agree with her deity's precepts, etc.; after all, why else would she be serving that deity?--but she can have an agenda beyond just that.

Indeed, in some D&D novels (notably, Tymora's Luck) the paladin might actually feel obliged to disobey their deity, if their deity gives them a morally wrong order.

but that was a rather unusual case- and the deity was NG.

[Lord.Sorasen]

On the magic domain side, if your DM lets you take regional feats, Arcane Schooling might be something worth thinking about. If you choose sorcerer your spells would work off charisma. This would let you use some amount of magic items.

Sword of the Arcane Order is the same issue, but it replaces your paladin spells with wizard spells, essentially replacing wis with int.

[Hyudra]

As I see it, when someone dies, 9/10ths of the time, the family will be going to the temple of Wee Jas to make arrangements. Funerals, special requests, and such.

There are probably incidents, now and then, where a family member, relative or the deceased themselves (by way of will or speak with dead) will make a special request. Transport my body back to my homeland. Reunite me with my lover in death.

There's other areas too, where Wee Jas would make use of paladins. Consider the champion that gets dispatched from the main temple to put lost souls to rest; to send ghosts to the afterlife or to dispatch undead borne of anger or other disturbed emotions. Necromancers who abuse the dead for their own ends would be major targets, as well.

So for hooks, consider:
A veteran, aged adventurer has died and his soul cannot rest until his final quest is completed. The adventurer has enough wealth and contacts that the temple feels it would suit Wee Jas's interests to fulfill his request. The task assigned to the paladin is to {insert something tied to campaign goals, here}, and the paladin carries the adventurer's corpse, secured in an iron coffin, on his/her back while carrying out the task. If the coffin isn't worth the hassle, consider just an urn, instead, or even a suit of armor forged with the ashes mixed into the metal itself.
Wee Jas has found that an entire area of the campaign setting has disappeared from her sight and portfolio. Someone or something else - a fledgling god, a powerful ur-priest or something else - is usurping her power over death, and the paladin has been sent to remedy the issue.
The Paladin serves not the core temple of Wee Jas, but a tertiary branch. Perhaps the paladin follows the precepts of Wee Jas the Lover, as described in Dragon magazine. Perhaps you're a lawful evil cleric of Wee Jas that follows the precepts of the heretical text, the Abominable Devastation.

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

You could always look at the Sword of the Arcane Order from Champions of Valor. reflavor from Mystra to Wee Jas, poof, a paladin that also casts arcane spells. use a variant alignment (of which there are numerous examples) Paladin, problem solved.

[holywhippet]

You could always look at the Sword of the Arcane Order from Champions of Valor. reflavor from Mystra to Wee Jas, poof, a paladin that also casts arcane spells. use a variant alignment (of which there are numerous examples) Paladin, problem solved.

Does that class have intelligence as the casting stat? The character in question only has 10 INT which means cantrips only. Even their WIS and CHA are pretty ordinary too.

[Keld Denar]

Sword of the Arcane Order isn't a class, its a feat. It allows you to aquire a spellbook and prep wizard spells in your paladin spell slots. You need an Int high enough to cast them though.

So...it basically makes Paladins even more MAD, since you need Wisdom to get the spell slots, and Int to cast the spells, and then the usual Str/Con/Cha reqs.

Although you could probably get by with a 14 Int, and eventually end up with an 18 in Wisdom from items (starting with a 12, and getting a +6 item), so that you have one bonus spell slot at each spell level.

[holywhippet]

Sounds like blessed with suck to me. Ignoring that most paladins aren't going to focus on having a high INT score, they don't tend to have that many spell slots, and don't start getting any spells until level 4 at the earliest. On top of that, does the feat remove arcane spell failure due to heavy armour?

[Templarkommando]

My gut reaction is to stay away from morally ambiguous paladins for the sake of simplicity. Failing that, find a class that can fill the same role for Wee Jas while not flirting with the alignment rules. A knight/cleric or fighter/cleric seems like it would work well to me. Other possibilities would look like a class more specific to Wee Jas. He's a deity of magic, so wizard/cleric or sorcerer/cleric or something along those lines could work. It could also be that there are some single classes out there that might do the trick, though none come readily to my mind atm.

Something to think about, is that the paladin class isn't necessarily the only class that can fill that role - especially for non-good deities.

A final possibility is to see if you can just forego the alignment rules and play the class. I really don't like that option personally, as the paladin class has the alignment restriction for a reason. Paladins are generally supposed to behave a certain way. That's not to say that there's not some wiggle room, but a paladin of a LN deity of death and magic really doesn't scream "paladin" material to me.

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

Yeah, Sword of the Arcane order is generally better for rangers... that said... There is a very good argument for having Wizard spells instead of the usually crappy Paladin spells. though also yes, you would need a reasonable INT to get the most out of it.

However, Paladins in 3.5 kinda suck, so Id figure out a way to do it, just because it makes them fairly alright. Honestly, every since being enlightened as to the existence of that feat, no paladin or ranger of mine in 3.5 hasn't picked it up at level 6.

yes, you need to spend money on a +1 twilight mithril chain-shirt... but it is so very, very worth it.

I actually kinda want to make a SoTAO Paladin right now, actually. Almost. Almost...

[felinoel]

...So I read your post and I was about to scroll down to read some more when I noticed your signature... There is your paladin of death right there, she is the perfect character to base your own character off of, especially since I always took Wee Jas' domain of Death to be like that black cloaked skeleton guy with the scythe because he was originated from a farming deity by the same name as the domain. He is not evil, yet he takes life, because that life is over and it is right for him to take it, that was just how I always picture Wee Jas.

[Popertop]

-Re. Death domain: Usually, Good-aligned characters are pretty much into protecting life. How do you focus on death and protect life at the same time?

You could have your paladin respect death.

[felinoel]

You could have your paladin respect death.
Yes, like the real world's farming deity (http://static.technorati.com/10/11/18/22105/434px-Death.jpg).

[Cerlis]

Well, most of the paladins I've seen played were simply decent people with a set of class abilities that let them focus on taking out evil.

And yeah, I'm already playing a LG paladin, so no chance to rebuild. Well, I guess there would be if I found it was totally non-viable, but as is obvious from the advice above, it's not impossible at all and could be quite interesting. I think I like the oddity of it, now that I've had the chance to turn it over in my mind.

A paladin has a divine patron; but she isn't actually an avatar of her deity. She has to respect her deity, be loyal to her deity, obey orders, agree with her deity's precepts, etc.; after all, why else would she be serving that deity?--but she can have an agenda beyond just that. That extra agenda would be the Good aspect of this particular paladin's alignment--her desire to solve problems, help others, protect the innocent, all that. The idea of knowledge as something to be protected, collected, and treasured, as well as the idea of death in its proper time as a natural and almost beautiful thing, is something that any paladin can believe in--unusual, maybe, but still compatible with Good.

I can definitely see the paladins of Wee Jas, especially trainees, serving as hospice workers and funeral directors. Helping the dying and their next of kin accept and understand death is exactly the combination of Good and Law that a paladin of Wee Jas would want. If no one cares for them, then the elderly and the dying will take their knowledge and experiences with them to the grave, rather than passing it on to the people they leave behind. Perhaps paladins of Wee Jas have a focus on integrating the legacy of the dead into the world of the living.

Thats a good point. Even if an entire temple/school dedicated to Wee Jas was mostly Lawful neutral, the Good and goodish characters might gravitate to becoming assistants and even professionals in the medical appartment (like learning about Monster biology and various way to treat magical creatures and treat the afflictions they cause). So assuming the leaders of the acadamy wherent pricks, a full group/house of Good inclined people would be raised there. Thus Wee Jas Clerics, Mystic Theurges, and eventually as the acadamy delt more and more with conflict from one thing or another those Mystic Theurges and Clerics teach some of their apprentices Combat roles. Thus the Wee Jas Paladin is born.

point is i can easily see maybe your character getting her inspiration from the Head Medic at her school after an argument between the medic and one of your strict teachers.

or something.

[felinoel]

Thats a good point. Even if an entire temple/school dedicated to Wee Jas was mostly Lawful neutral, the Good and goodish characters might gravitate to becoming assistants and even professionals in the medical appartment (like learning about Monster biology and various way to treat magical creatures and treat the afflictions they cause). So assuming the leaders of the acadamy wherent pricks, a full group/house of Good inclined people would be raised there. Thus Wee Jas Clerics, Mystic Theurges, and eventually as the acadamy delt more and more with conflict from one thing or another those Mystic Theurges and Clerics teach some of their apprentices Combat roles. Thus the Wee Jas Paladin is born.

point is i can easily see maybe your character getting her inspiration from the Head Medic at her school after an argument between the medic and one of your strict teachers.

or something.Plus, and I point out the other paladins from the Unearthed Arcana, it is just not fair to the deities themselves that only Lawful Good deities get paladins under them, I can easily see many paladins of Wee Jas existing

[Callista]

Hey, come on, this is the character class that once inspired a sidebar entitled "When your Horse is Smarter than You." Of course I'm not going to shell out the points for a positive INT modifier! A paladin on 25 point buy can only go so far.

I should point out that I like Miko as an antagonist, not because I think she is a role model to which paladins should aspire... Wow, if every paladin acted like Miko, I don't think anybody would play one!

[Yora]

The magic word here is "sects". Yes, there are some clerics and worshippers of Wee-Jas that are evil. But that does not have to mean that such things are welcomed or tollerated in the specific temple in which the paladin was trained and ordained.
Religions are very heterogenous entities, even more so the more members they have and the larger the area they are spread over. And I think in most D&D settings each temple is relatively autonomous and has only to report to the temple in the next big city at the most.
And even if the religion has a nominal leader, who is the head of all followers and direct superior of every single priest, real world evidence shows everyday and everywhere, that this authority is not blindly accepted by each temple. And you also have scism, in which entire religions split into factions and don't consider the others part of their religion anymore, while still worshipping the same god. (I could give examples, but this is forbidden in this forum.)
In D&D there's the special case that the gods themselves can reveal their will to the followers directly and put an end to any disagreement. But again, that does not have to mean that they have to. And I imagine Wee-Jas as a deity who grants her followers quite some room in interpreting the basic dogmas of her Church. As long as they follow the basic rules, the priests of a temple can be as goody two shoes as they want and expell followers from their ground if they don't respect the local traditions, without the goddess abandonning the temples priest.
There should be a certain reluctance to outrightly attack evil worshippers of Wee-Jas, but that does not have to mean you have to help them in their evil scemes or talk to them more than neccessary.

[hamishspence]

And I imagine Wee-Jas as a deity who grants her followers quite some room in interpreting the basic dogmas of her Church. As long as they follow the basic rules, the priests of a temple can be as goody two shoes as they want and expell followers from their ground if they don't respect the local traditions, without the goddess abandonning the temples priest.
There should be a certain reluctance to outrightly attack evil worshippers of Wee-Jas, but that does not have to mean you have to help them in their evil scemes or talk to them more than neccessary.

LG ones might- but the more common LN ones might have to make use of both LG and LE worshippers.

It might be something along the lines of "leave philosophical disagreements at the door" and both groups work together with no more than a certain chilly attitude toward each other.

[Yora]

But I think it said that the group only has one other LN cleric of Wee-Jas and the two characters work together as members of the same temple.
The LN cleric would probably be more lenient in certain things than the paladin would like, but LN isn't just LN.

Or as said in Die Hard 3: "There's a difference, you know, between not liking one's brother and not caring when some dumb Irish flatfoot drops him out of a window."

Just because he's a LN cleric does not mean he has to tollerate the antics of the LE clerics.

[kts2008]

Gray Guard could be helpful for getting a bit more wriggle room with the finer points of the Paladin's code

[hamishspence]

Or as said in Die Hard 3: "There's a difference, you know, between not liking one's brother and not caring when some dumb Irish flatfoot drops him out of a window."

Just because he's a LN cleric does not mean he has to tollerate the antics of the LE clerics.

The same could apply in reverse- an LN cleric of Wee Jas might dislike LE clerics of Wee Jas- but they're still a "brotherhood and sisterhood"- and they would tend to come to the LE cleric's aid under most circumstances.

That is, if the internal loyalties of members of the group are fairly strong.

"Brother Animatesalot may be a jerk- but he's still a brother of the church" so to speak.

If the LE cleric do nothing overtly against Wee Jas's law, or local law, their LN superior might have to accept their presence in the area-

and if they start doing things like refusing them aid when they come to the temple for help, they might themselves receive a visit from those higher up the chain of command, to bring them "back into line".

[Gullintanni]

Hey, come on, this is the character class that once inspired a sidebar entitled "When your Horse is Smarter than You." Of course I'm not going to shell out the points for a positive INT modifier! A paladin on 25 point buy can only go so far.

I should point out that I like Miko as an antagonist, not because I think she is a role model to which paladins should aspire... Wow, if every paladin acted like Miko, I don't think anybody would play one!

The Living Greyhawk version of Wee Jas may be more appealing to you. She's refluffed to be less evil. She still presides over death, but has the Repose domain rather than the Death domain. Repose is similar, but is the domain granted to good gods.

Her portfolios include Death, Vanity and Law to name the relevant ones. A Paladin in her service would then strive to preserve the sacredness of the Dead, beautify her temples, and hunt down the corrupt. Including possibly lawful evil members of Wee Jas' own church.

On that note, such a Paladin would only tolerate the evil members of his church insofar as it would allow him a fantastic vantage point from which to observe and police them.

[BadJuJu]

Paladin 5 / sorrcerer x / warweaver

Mix with high bab arcane casting PrC's. You are a arcane spellcasting gish of the death god. You superbuff the party and ride around on your buffed up horse with haste, shield and giant's strength going at once in combat.

*Cough* Abjurant Champion *cough*

[hamishspence]

The Living Greyhawk version of Wee Jas may be more appealing to you. She's refluffed to be less evil. She still presides over death, but has the Repose domain rather than the Death domain. Repose is similar, but is the domain granted to good gods.

GHwiki seems to follow the standard LN with LE tendencies line:

http://www.canonfire.com/wiki/index.php?title=Wee_Jas

[Gullintanni]

GHwiki seems to follow the standard LN with LE tendencies line:

http://www.canonfire.com/wiki/index.php?title=Wee_Jas

Sure does. My point is that there's viability in the Greyhawk fluff for a LG Paladin of Wee Jas. From the Living Greyhawk Official Deities Listing:

"Wee Jas protects a departing Suel soul on its way to the afterlife. Clerics of Wee Jas are very respected because of this...Rebuilding a plundered tomb, resurrecting an ancient sage, and braving Limbo to ask questions of a long dead wizard are the type of quests Wee Jas sponsors. Her academies are not unlike boarding schools, where small infractions of grooming and uniform regulations are punished with a system of demerits...Wee Jas venerates a series of deceased 'honored ancestors'."

Otherwise, magic is a big deal.

Her portfolios are Magic, Death, Vanity and Law.
Her domains are: Domination, Inquisition, Magic, Mind, Law and Repose.

She's evil not because she's malicious or cruel. She's evil because a great deal of the magic associated with breaking the veil between life and death involves evil magic.

Moreover, Clerics of Wee Jas are prohibited from raising or healing the weak, or the Chaotic, without her special permission (to be gained via a Commune spell), and they are prohibited from Commanding chaotic undead without similar permissions, though they can rebuke them just fine.

Wee Jas venerates control over the balance of life and death, via magic, beauty (but she jealously loathes those more beautiful than her), and discipline. She respects Boccob for his dedication to mastery over magic.

There's lots of room in there for a Paladin as an enforcer of law, a beautifier of her temples, and a preserver of the dead.

[hamishspence]

Sure does. My point is that there's viability in the Greyhawk fluff for a LG Paladin of Wee Jas. From the Living Greyhawk Official Deities Listing:

Point I was making was- even with "LN with LE tendencies" paladins of Wee Jas still exist. The question is, how much tolerance do they have for the rest of the church?

Greyhawk may actually be a bit like Eberron in some ways- with the Scarlet Brotherhood as like Karrnath.

Just as Kaarnath has LG paladins- who can tolerate the undead of their nation- so the paladins of Wee Jas may have to have at least some tolerance as well.

I think in the Dragon article, it said her "evil tendencies" were about pragmatism- she has minimal interest in morality, and is more concerned about results than means.

[Gullintanni]

Point I was making was- even with "LN with LE tendencies" paladins of Wee Jas still exist. The question is, how much tolerance do they have for the rest of the church?

I think in the Dragon article, it said her "evil tendencies" were about pragmatism- she has minimal interest in morality, and is more concerned about results than means.

This would be in perfect keeping with her regular conduct, you're absolutely correct. In terms of how much tolerance...that's an issue, I'd think, for the DM of your campaign to interpret, but if it was me?

I'd say any actions that weren't strictly evil, or superfluously evil. Animating the dead, for example, requires the creation of undead, which is always an evil act. If an ancestor requested that he be raised as undead in order to protect the burial grounds of his kin, then a Paladin of Wee Jas would undoubtedly be okay with that sort of thing.

In my mind, any evil act that didn't directly serve Wee Jas' code of conduct would be punishable by a Paladin of Wee Jas.

[hamishspence]

The code says "paladins punish those who harm or threaten the innocent"

So evil acts that don't do this, while not "fair game" might be something a paladin is willing to turn a blind eye to, up to a point.

or at least, not see themselves as obliged to punish.

They might object- but possibly not to the point of "I will use force against you to prevent you, if you try" or "I will immediately go to the local authorites to get them to arrest you" or "I will immediately leave the group- even if I was under orders to remain with it".

[Callista]

This would be in perfect keeping with her regular conduct, you're absolutely correct. In terms of how much tolerance...that's an issue, I'd think, for the DM of your campaign to interpret, but if it was me?

I'd say any actions that weren't strictly evil, or superfluously evil. Animating the dead, for example, requires the creation of undead, which is always an evil act. If an ancestor requested that he be raised as undead in order to protect the burial grounds of his kin, then a Paladin of Wee Jas would undoubtedly be okay with that sort of thing.For Good-aligned Wee Jas clerics, there would be the Deathless option. Channel positive energy to reanimate someone who has died but has unfinished business. Deathless are different because, unlike Undead, they don't have a desire to harm the living, nor do they want to pervert the natural order of things by sticking around indefinitely: They are on a mission, and when they complete it, they return to the afterlife. The fellow who wants to be raised to protect his burial grounds might also become a Crypt Warden--this type of Deathless spends most of its time in the afterlife, but returns to animate its body to respond to threats to the sanctity of the tomb it guards.

Speaking of Undead, I've been reading Libris Mortis fluff... very useful.

Could be creepy but kind of cool: I wonder whether Wee Jas might have crypts under her temples in which rest the preserved bodies of ancient sages and wizards, in coffins enchanted with Gentle Repose. One could go there to ask questions of them (via Speak with Dead) to access the information they knew in life... It would be a way to preserve magical knowledge and wisdom, and even the beauty of the body itself. Like I said, creepy, but... so appropriate.

[Gullintanni]

For Good-aligned Wee Jas clerics, there would be the Deathless option. Channel positive energy to reanimate someone who has died but has unfinished business. Deathless are different because, unlike Undead, they don't have a desire to harm the living, nor do they want to pervert the natural order of things by sticking around indefinitely: They are on a mission, and when they complete it, they return to the afterlife. The fellow who wants to be raised to protect his burial grounds might also become a Crypt Warden--this type of Deathless spends most of its time in the afterlife, but returns to animate its body to respond to threats to the sanctity of the tomb it guards.

Speaking of Undead, I've been reading Libris Mortis fluff... very useful.

Could be creepy but kind of cool: I wonder whether Wee Jas might have crypts under her temples in which rest the preserved bodies of ancient sages and wizards, in coffins enchanted with Gentle Repose. One could go there to ask questions of them (via Speak with Dead) to access the information they knew in life... It would be a way to preserve magical knowledge and wisdom, and even the beauty of the body itself. Like I said, creepy, but... so appropriate.

This actually seems like an excellent way to pass down ancestral knowledge, including the locations of hidden spell-books including researched spells. Easy plot hooks right there. And so deliciously flavorful for a Magic oriented death goddess. Well done :smallbiggrin:

[Ranielle]

You know, a Paladin of Wee Jas is a great idea if played right. Or even an order of those paladins.

[hamishspence]

For Good-aligned Wee Jas clerics, there would be the Deathless option. Channel positive energy to reanimate someone who has died but has unfinished business. Deathless are different because, unlike Undead, they don't have a desire to harm the living, nor do they want to pervert the natural order of things by sticking around indefinitely: They are on a mission, and when they complete it, they return to the afterlife. The fellow who wants to be raised to protect his burial grounds might also become a Crypt Warden--this type of Deathless spends most of its time in the afterlife, but returns to animate its body to respond to threats to the sanctity of the tomb it guards.

Currently, there isn't a rules-based way for PCs to create Deathless as far as I can tell- they rise of their own accord.

However- allowing an "Animate Deathless" or "Create Deathless" variant on the existing undead-creating spells (maybe with a pearl instead of a black onyx?) might be an interesting homebrew solution.

[felinoel]

Hey, come on, this is the character class that once inspired a sidebar entitled "When your Horse is Smarter than You." Of course I'm not going to shell out the points for a positive INT modifier! A paladin on 25 point buy can only go so far.

I should point out that I like Miko as an antagonist, not because I think she is a role model to which paladins should aspire... Wow, if every paladin acted like Miko, I don't think anybody would play one!

I would, and do... sometimes, but I never play the Paladin of Honor (LG)... only the Paladin of Freedom (CG)


Currently, there isn't a rules-based way for PCs to create Deathless as far as I can tell- they rise of their own accord.

However- allowing an "Animate Deathless" or "Create Deathless" variant on the existing undead-creating spells (maybe with a pearl instead of a black onyx?) might be an interesting homebrew solution.

What about the Risen Martyr PrC?

[hamishspence]

True- that's making yourself into a deathless though, rather than creating other deathless.

That said- the whole concept does seem like only good beings should become deathless- and only with their own consent- it doesn't really make sense for the character to simply animate any old corpse as a deathless.

[felinoel]

True- that's making yourself into a deathless though, rather than creating other deathless.

That said- the whole concept does seem like only good beings should become deathless- and only with their own consent- it doesn't really make sense for the character to simply animate any old corpse as a deathless.Deathless seems like an exalted ghost to me, not something you can make from a corpse but definitely something you can make from a spirit, maybe go to your deity's alignment plane and recruit some dead guys to turn their incorporeal forms corporeal? I'm sure your DM would allow the creation of a spell to do so, creating spells are in the rulebook, would likely be a cleric or high level paladin spell, or replace your smite ability with this instead?

Though from my limited understanding of Wee Jas my initial thoughts on this matter would be that it goes against Wee Jas' death domain, but if you were playing under me a little bit of roleplaying would go a long way with that

[Gullintanni]

Though from my limited understanding of Wee Jas my initial thoughts on this matter would be that it goes against Wee Jas' death domain, but if you were playing under me a little bit of roleplaying would go a long way with that

It's true that Clerics of Wee Jas always channel Negative energy, but they're not prohibited from using positive energy either. It was mentioned above that the Deathless are created using positive energy, so there's no reason a Cleric of Wee Jas would be prohibited from creating Deathless.

As for Wee Jas and her death portfolio fluff, Clerics of Wee Jas are all about escorting the dead to the other side and preserving the spirits of their ancestors. That sounds like she's not in favor of using the spirits of the dead for anything but populating the afterlife; however, assuming volunteers to be turned into a Deathless upon death in order to protect her ancestral burial grounds, then it'd be well within the purview of her death portfolio.

Wee Jas:
1) Loves magic, especially the kind that crosses the boundaries of life and death. Researching a new spell to create Deathless fits that bill perfectly.
2) Reveres the dead. Honoring their wishes, including raising them to pursue a lawful purpose (such as protecting the tradition of ancestor cultism) is entirely within her bounds.

Just keep in mind, Wee Jas by default will not allow you to raise chaotic undead, or chaotic individuals. Otherwise, raising Deathless doesn't contradict Wee Jas' philosophies at all.

[hamishspence]

It's true that Clerics of Wee Jas always channel Negative energy, but they're not prohibited from using positive energy either. It was mentioned above that the Deathless are created using positive energy, so there's no reason a Cleric of Wee Jas would be prohibited from creating Deathless.

In fact, a LG cleric of Wee Jas must channel positive energy.

It's only LN clerics of Wee Jas that (unlike most other LN clerics) don't get a choice about what to start off channeling.

Most LN clerics can choose to be +ve channellers, or -ve channellers, when they take their first level- and this choice stays fixed unless they change alignment to one that's incompatible.

Some are restricted to +ve energy only.
Some (Wee Jas LN clerics, most notably) are restricted to -ve energy only.

Spells are different. All clerics can cast +ve and -ve energy spells- but they can only spontaneously cast spells of the energy that they also channel.

[Gullintanni]

In fact, a LG cleric of Wee Jas must channel positive energy.

It's only LN clerics of Wee Jas that (unlike most other LN clerics) don't get a choice about what to start off channeling.

Most LN clerics can choose to be +ve channellers, or -ve channellers, when they take their first level- and this choice stays fixed unless they change alignment to one that's incompatible.

Some are restricted to +ve energy only.
Some (Wee Jas LN clerics, most notably) are restricted to -ve energy only.

Spells are different. All clerics can cast +ve and -ve energy spells- but they can only spontaneously cast spells of the energy that they also channel.

My omission. I don't usually include LG clerics in Clerics of Wee Jas. But yes. This.

[Damocles74]

I actually played a Wee Jaas Paladin in '02 "Kendall" The backstory was he grew up a simple rustic boy on the outskits of a forest and had an encounter in the woods helping his father chop fire wood. they heard a loud bleating and found a deer wounded by another animal. His father ended the animals misery and when he asked "Why?" His father replied, "Death...is a stern mistress. We all must meet her one day, it makes no matter if you are king or beggar...or deer. When the time comes, the best thing we can do is face her with dignity and know she follows her own rules."

When he heard the call to become a Paladin, he knew he wanted to bring peace and respect to all who would meet her on a battle ground. He was the first to take up her banner and the DM came up with a neat little flair for him that didnt really help but set the tone for him, Wee Jas gifted him with two silver coins bearing her symbol to be placed over the eyes of any dead encountered who was not buried properly. They would replicate themselves for multiple uses and could only be used to honor the dead. No free meals or ales. A rogue in the party tried to steal them once and paid a price. after several adventures we had some problems with her dogma and my character's beliefs. Slaves raised as undead were allowed in Wee Jaas church because she considered them property. and evil act. After awhile the DM and I both agreed that to continue as her Paladin would be too much of a contradiction to make the character beliveable. (I wasnt a good enough RP'er to figure a solution.) so we made the choice to have him renounce her and become a cavalier for acouple of levels till he atoned for any sins he commited as her paladin and we found a death deity that was a perfect match with my paladin. Kelemvor from the Forgotten Realms. It was some home brewing but it worked. so my suggestion is try Wee Jas, but keep Kelemvor as an alternate.

[Strormer]

I'm going to second the grey guard PrC suggestion. It would give you the leeway you were seeking without having to change your concept too much. They also work well for WeeJas.

The real point here is that most people try to play Good Lawful Paladins. You're just playing a LAWFUL good Paladin. I did the same thing when I played my Paladin of St. Cuthbert/Cavalier. He was a LAWFUL good Paladin who focused on punishing the guilty and keeping order, with morality second to order; a knight of vengance, as it were. (Yes, he was basically Ghost Rider which became a running joke through the campaign.)

[Lord_Gareth]

I realize this kind of thing gets mentioned a lot, but I'm going to go ahead and say it just in case it works out for you: why not play a Crusader of Wee Jas?

[navar100]

Stress the Death portfolio. You bring Death to Evil. When questioned about your faith since Wee Jas accepts Lawful Evil clerics who animate dead, proseltyze. Explain that while Wee Jas expects obedience, she still believes in the Free Will of the individual, which is why she is not Evil herself. She appreciates it more when a worshipper wants to obey. It is your Free Will to follower her. It is your free will to fight against Evil in her name. Your fight is your Cause, not hers. She permits this individuality. How you interact with the more typical Wee Jas temples is your business. You will not raise a sword to them, but that doesn't mean you have to link hands in a circle and sing Kumbaya with them either.

[deuxhero]

Sword of the Arcane Order is mentioned, but Mystic Fire Knight could be converted from Mysta to Wee Jas simply and has yet to be mentioned.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

I may be wrong about this, but my understanding is that Wee Jas' stance on undeath is that the only tolerable undead are liches, and only as long as they do so to obtain greater knowledge or continue their studies, rather than raise armies and try to conquer the world. Everything else needs to be returned to death ASAP.

[hamishspence]

I may be wrong about this, but my understanding is that Wee Jas' stance on undeath is that the only tolerable undead are liches, and only as long as they do so to obtain greater knowledge or continue their studies, rather than raise armies and try to conquer the world. Everything else needs to be returned to death ASAP.

She's actually pretty tolerant:

http://www.canonfire.com/wiki/index.php?title=Wee_Jas


Dogma

Wee Jas thinks of herself as a steward of the dead. Though she is a relatively benign death goddess, she has no problem with undead being created - as long as they are not reanimated against their will, and their remains are procured in a lawful manner. Wee Jas is unconcerned with questions of morality; if it can be done within the confines of the law, she will allow it. Jasidan priests teach that magic is the key to all things. Jasidan are expected to show respect towards their predecessors and the departed.



as long as the individual undead aren't "reanimated against their will" and the bodies are obtained lawfully.