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B1okHead
2011-01-10, 05:34 PM
I'm working on making a setting, but it doesn't have any gods. Do you guys have any ideas on how to incorporate them into a setting without gods? I was thinking that they could just draw power from ideals, but that seems like a pretty wimpy source of their power. Does anyone have anything better?

Ravens_cry
2011-01-10, 05:39 PM
You could always have therm worship things that aren't gods, but they believe to be gods or at least worthy of worship. This belief gives them spells. The beings may be more then willing to take the credit or not.
They may not even be beings.

Kaje
2011-01-10, 05:39 PM
Nuclear fission

hamishspence
2011-01-10, 05:41 PM
Or abstract forces.

If "Good" and "Evil" and so on are simply forces that make up the cosmos- a cleric might "draw power from one of these forces" rather than worshipping it per se.

B1okHead
2011-01-10, 05:43 PM
I like the idea of abstract forces.

Ravens_cry
2011-01-10, 05:45 PM
Nuclear fission
"Children of the Atom" eh?

Urpriest
2011-01-10, 05:46 PM
I like the idea of abstract forces.

In that case, take a look at Complete Psionic's Ardent class. They devote themselves to psionic Mantles which are supposed to represent abstract forces of the universe. Having clerics pick domains along lines similar to those which define mantles might help get the flavor you want down.

JonestheSpy
2011-01-10, 05:48 PM
Eastern philosophies contain many different "Enlightened Ones" and sages and whatnot that draw their power/abilities/whatever you want to call it from their heightened perception of the truths of existence, nature of the universe, etc. Worth researching.

Elvenoutrider
2011-01-10, 05:50 PM
Even in core d&d it isnt necessary to worship a god. Divine spells can come from worshiping an ideal

Ytaker
2011-01-10, 05:51 PM
Go the fable way. There are regions of good and evil which people can draw power from, based on the feelings of humans, or some natural phenonenom- a region where people are good will have a lot of good energy, a region where people are bad will have a lot of bad energy.

Upon training there, you now have the ability to tap these forces everywhere.

In fable mythical gods were worshiped based on these regions of energy. The gods didn't actually exist, but people still had magical powers from these regions because they believed in the ideal.

Scarlet-Devil
2011-01-10, 05:52 PM
Another alternative is to have 'spirits', in the animistic sense, that are capable of granting spells to people who pay them respect/tribute/supplication; see shaman/spirit shaman.

Drynwyn
2011-01-10, 05:54 PM
I would suggest adapting the source of e classes power more fully. Perhaps go with the oriental adverntures adaptation of the paladin and rheyndraw theirnpower from theornlife force.

Psyren
2011-01-10, 06:14 PM
In that case, take a look at Complete Psionic's Ardent class. They devote themselves to psionic Mantles which are supposed to represent abstract forces of the universe. Having clerics pick domains along lines similar to those which define mantles might help get the flavor you want down.

I'd say Ardents are more about "contemplation" than "devotion"; For example, even a cleric of a cause or philosophy can't worship two diametrically opposing mores at the same time (e.g. no mixing Good and Evil domains.) But an Ardent can take those two mantles, or Law and Chaos, just fine.

In fact, an Ardent can gain power from concepts he doesn't believe in at all, whether in order to understand them better, to contrast a mantle he does believe in, for shiggles, or any other reason.

Curious
2011-01-10, 06:15 PM
You could have them draw their power from the inner planes, shuch as the planes of fire, earth, positive and negative energy, and so forth.

hamishspence
2011-01-10, 06:18 PM
Almost any domain can be represented as a "force" of some kind. Or at least, a "source of power".

racial domains, like "elf" "scalykind" and so on- might be drawn from the people of that type as a whole.

So, to use the "scalykind" domain spells- the cleric draws a fraction of power (not enough for individuals to notice) from all scalykind.

Curmudgeon
2011-01-10, 06:26 PM
You can mostly just use the existing rules, because (excepting Forgotten Realms) they permit Clerics who don't worship gods. You'll need to consider what to do about deity favored weapons, but that's about it. (This affects the War domain and a bunch of spells like Weapon of the Deity.)

Callista
2011-01-10, 06:32 PM
A deityless cleric generally has a belief system that is very important to him. He will almost always revere the gods that represent those things he believes in, though he doesn't actually declare allegiance to them.

Thrice Dead Cat
2011-01-10, 06:47 PM
Belief is generally enough. I know that with Eberron there is some debate as to whether any of the deities or collective pantheons actually exist at all.

Dr.Epic
2011-01-10, 06:48 PM
You can have a cleric dedicated to an idea. And for where the magic comes from, it's magic. Do you really need to explain where it comes from?

AslanCross
2011-01-10, 06:49 PM
Belief is generally enough. I know that with Eberron there is some debate as to whether any of the deities or collective pantheons actually exist at all.

And clerics who worship non-divine physical entities (like the Lord of Blades) actually get power.

archon_huskie
2011-01-10, 06:52 PM
Use Druids instead. Add the cure wounds spells to their list.

Scarlet-Devil
2011-01-10, 07:21 PM
Use Druids instead. Add the cure wounds spells to their list.

They already have them...

Chilingsworth
2011-01-10, 07:51 PM
They already have them...

I think SD means at the normal cleric spell levels?

holywhippet
2011-01-10, 07:52 PM
The Darksun setting has no Gods. I think the clerics all worship the elemental spheres or something. I think the world used to have Gods but they got sick of all the desecration and left or something.

By RAW a cleric doesn't have to devote themself to a particular deity.

mobdrazhar
2011-01-11, 12:17 AM
you could always use Druids in place of Clerics as Worshipers of Nature and even of Elementals.

Greenish
2011-01-11, 01:21 AM
You could have clerics who worship gods, even if the gods didn't actually exist. The power would come from the cleric's devotion and faith (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ClapYourHandsIfYouBelieve).

Teron
2011-01-11, 02:53 AM
If you want more structure than the "whatever you think is cool enough to give you magic, does" approach to clerics of a cause/ideal, you could create some organised -- or at least widespread -- deity-less religions that fill the same mechanical role as gods (domain list, favoured weapon, etc.), like the Path of Light and Blood of Vol in Eberron.

Toliudar
2011-01-11, 03:02 AM
There's ancestor worship, the sense that a connection to your lineage gives you the power to change the world.

mobdrazhar
2011-01-11, 04:04 PM
There is also the worshipping of Animal Spirits

SITB
2011-01-11, 04:27 PM
In Planescape, don't Athar* priests worship the "Great Unknown" or some variant?


*Athar being a philosopical sect that decries all standard D&D gods as fruads/supernatural parasites.

Trekkin
2011-01-11, 04:39 PM
Perhaps it works like magnetism?

Perhaps clerics, in choosing to define themselves based on a set of principles, reorganize all the little bits of their soul into the same direction, thereby achieving an effect analogous to that of a magnetized piece of steel; their magic is simply raw magical energy channeled into a particular effect by sheer force of will, which is why wisdom is their casting stat.

This can synergize with the primal forces you said you liked; a cleric choosing to be good and devoting herself to Good ends up being such an ideal conduit for Good that whatever primal energy makes up goodness flows through her. This also stops silliness like clerics of Pennies That Slipped Between the Couch Cushions last Tuesday (which you can sometimes get with clerics of causes) in that there has to be a primal force close to the principles of the cleric for this to work. In a way, they're similar to incarnates.

Greenish
2011-01-11, 06:59 PM
This also stops silliness like clerics of Pennies That Slipped Between the Couch Cushions last Tuesday (which you can sometimes get with clerics of causes)How is that better/worse than, say, being a cleric of Anoia, Goddess of Things That Get Stuck in Drawers?

TheWhisper
2011-01-11, 07:13 PM
I'm working on making a setting, but it doesn't have any gods. Do you guys have any ideas on how to incorporate them into a setting without gods? I was thinking that they could just draw power from ideals, but that seems like a pretty wimpy source of their power. Does anyone have anything better?

A setting without gods would look a lot more like our universe than the D&D universe does.

In our universe, pretty much any great power is arcane (that is to say, "known or understood by very few; mysterious; secret; obscure; esoteric"), in the sense that power is based upon knowledge of the universe rather than influence with supernatural entities. (Clerics beg for power; wizards compel the universe through their understanding.)

So how about simply making all magic arcane? Ban the spells that have specifically "holy" effects (since there is no holy without gods), and let wizards and sorcerors learn the others.

Curmudgeon
2011-01-11, 07:21 PM
So how about simply making all magic arcane? Ban the spells that have specifically "holy" effects (since there is no holy without gods), and let wizards and sorcerors learn the others.
Regardless of any setting issues, anything which gives powerful spellcasters close to double the spells available is a very bad idea.

Tvtyrant
2011-01-11, 10:56 PM
Just divide the classes by their schools; you can only learn spells from one school, and your class is named after that school (Conjurer, Abjurist, etc.)

Then do some basic rearrangement of spells (like healing being moved into Necromancy and Mage Armor to Abjuration) and you have powerful classes that don't have the whole "I can literally do anything" power as much. They would only know spells like a Wizard too, so they couldn't normally even memorize their own school, just the parts of it they find useful. You nerf casters and bring them all into a simplified system without the Divine vs Arcane thing.

Maho-Tsukai
2011-01-11, 11:20 PM
I actually like that idea, though Desecrate should remain in the game and be moved to necromancy, since no good necromancer leaves home without that spell. Likewise, said classes should get a few special abilities. The Necromancer, for example, should get rebuke undead for sure, and if your not appose to domains perhaps the deathbound domain or AT LEAST the deathbound domain power. In fact, each "caster" could get one fitting domain, to make up for the lack of clerics.

Tvtyrant
2011-01-11, 11:30 PM
Well now there is actually room for special abilities, so I agree. The big worry I have has to do with the school balance; a Conjurer, Illusionist or Transmuter is going to be heads and shoulders above the others. Two of them get flying spells, another two get teleporty spells, and they have much more variety then the others. Especially poor, poor Evokers.

Valameer
2011-01-12, 12:01 AM
Jedi are like clerics who have no gods, just an all-encompasing energy that they devote their training to. The same energy can have a dark or a light aspect to it, depending on how the Jedi uses it.

I think that idea would fit pretty easily into a generic D&D campaign.

Chaos rising
2011-01-12, 05:18 AM
In my campaign setting I don't use gods either (they exist, but long ago decided not to interfere with the world in any way as their wars almost destroyed it centuries ago) Cleric function based on belief, but it is in the forces of good and evil, not a particular deity. For example, As a cleric progresses, if they are more good aligned, they will unlock spells focused on healing and party protection, but if they are evil aligned, they will learn spells based on damage and impairing enemies.

akma
2011-01-12, 07:58 AM
You could have clerics who worship gods, even if the gods didn't actually exist. The power would come from the cleric's devotion and faith (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ClapYourHandsIfYouBelieve).

Then it would be a godless world where everyone in the setting will believe there are gods. Won`t change much in the setting.

Anyways, I once thought of a godless campaign setting, and decided the clerics will earn their power by making a deal with one of the sanity eaters. The basic idea is done, but I decided I`ll make some very specific domains (stress, lies, fear, etc). I wanted there to be no gods to make the campaign setting feel more deserted and isolated.

Another option is to discard the cleric fluff completly and to call them in some other name (battle mages?).

Why do you want to cancel the gods?

umbrapolaris
2011-01-12, 09:24 AM
You could have them draw their power from the inner planes, shuch as the planes of fire, earth, positive and negative energy, and so forth.

exactly what the Dark Sun setting did, no gods, the clerics worships fake ones (the Dragon-Kings, powerful wizard/psionicist, who are able to grant spells) or the elemental planes.

Greenish
2011-01-12, 09:25 AM
Then it would be a godless world where everyone in the setting will believe there are gods.Well, not necessarily everyone, but yeah.

Won`t change much in the setting.Change what from what?

A world without deities is most likely to be very different from one where such beings exist.

akma
2011-01-12, 09:33 AM
A world without deities is most likely to be very different from one where such beings exist.

You misunderstood.
I meant that a world where deities exist and will not interfere won`t be much diffrent then a world where deities do not exist and believed to exist.