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Stanlee
2011-01-10, 06:35 PM
I am new to DMing but I had an excellent idea for an encounter/challenge. My campaign has 4 PCs and they will be entering a large city. If they enter in one of the bad parts of the neighborhood I was going to have a few guys bump into them and pick-pocket them then run off. The NPCs will be much faster and be able to navigate difficult terrain better then the players. The challenge will be, do you try to run after them, where you will most likely end up loosing, or play the map like a chess board and capture them by flaking and other tactics. The reward would be money the NPCs captured from other people. I was going to make them all minions (1hp, you hit them they knick out). How would I figure out how much xp something like this would be. If they fail, they loose some pocket cash. Any ideas?

Thomo
2011-01-10, 06:56 PM
Sounds like a fun challenge. I'm imagining something similar to Assassins Creed.

Let's see, I think it's best served as a skill challenge, with some possible combat elements.

Thievery / Perception to notice that they have been robbed (the more failures the further away the thieves get before being noticed)

Athletics and Endurance to give chase and keep running (set a reasonably low DC for this, otherwise it might be too hard)

Acrobatics and possibly Thievery to avoid obstacles / jump and climb. (Assume that PC's already have a running start for jumps etc)

Perception, Insight and Streetwise to spot the thieves, work out where they are likely to go and how to get their quickly (Failures mean they lose track of the thieves)

Dungeoneerings and Streetwise to navigate back alleys and shortcuts, as well as crowded areas. (Failure means the thieves get further ahead, and/or PC's are slowed down by the crowds).

Use of excessive force (i.e. blasting with magic etc) would draw the ire of the city guard and quite possibly get the pc's arrested.

ninja_penguin
2011-01-10, 07:16 PM
Keep in mind that if you're on a grid movement, Eladrin will mess you up be teleporting past that difficult jump you had in mind.

*fist shake*

Blackfang108
2011-01-10, 09:59 PM
Keep in mind that if you're on a grid movement, Eladrin will mess you up be teleporting past that difficult jump you had in mind.

*fist shake*

They only get to do it once per encounter.

Chainsaw Hobbit
2011-01-10, 10:02 PM
Keep in mind that if you're on a grid movement, Eladrin will mess you up be teleporting past that difficult jump you had in mind.

*fist shake*

When they teleport, have something nasty waiting for them where they land. :nale:

Christopher K.
2011-01-10, 10:09 PM
Keep in mind that if you're on a grid movement, Eladrin will mess you up be teleporting past that difficult jump you had in mind.

*fist shake*
Only once or twice per encounter(depending on character choices). Not necessarily too much of a problem, unless it's a short chase.

The Glyphstone
2011-01-10, 10:10 PM
When they teleport, have something nasty waiting for them where they land. :nale:

that would require either Schrodinger's Trap (and unreasonable fiat), or having something nasty waiting after every obstacle, because you don't know ahead of time which they'll choose to bypass. Plus, that means all the non-Eladrin have extra problems to deal with.

tcrudisi
2011-01-10, 10:23 PM
that would require either Schrodinger's Trap (and unreasonable fiat), or having something nasty waiting after every obstacle, because you don't know ahead of time which they'll choose to bypass. Plus, that means all the non-Eladrin have extra problems to deal with.

Logically? The first one. If I'm a bad guy and I'm trying to run away, I first head for the area that's trapped if I've got people chasing me. Beyond that, I probably don't have any areas trapped. But it will have the nice side effect of worrying the players if they fall for a trap after the first obstacle.

If the players bypass the first trap (and there are no others), then awesome for them. They did it correctly (even if unwittingly) and I would not punish them by throwing in random traps after that.

But this does sound like fun. Actually, it just sounds like a combat/skill challenge mixed together and there are a few representations of those about.

Loren
2011-01-10, 10:28 PM
I'm thinking more Tony Jaa ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HiBB4Dyudns&feature=related ), but each their own.

Ironically, jumping is actually under athletics not acrobatics. Climbing is also athletics. Balancing, however is acrobatics.

dynamic obsticals could be fun, like people carrying a bail of barbed wire step out in front of a runner.

the chased need to stay within sight of the chaser, or they will get lost. Giving the runners decent AC can help with this as it can allow them to escape when a chaser gets near, prolonging the chase.

Turnabout can be fun. Particularly if they are losing bad, you may want to consider abmushing them so that they can either have a fight and feel some accomplishment or a little break (they thump 2 mooks and the runner takes off again).

"He did what?!" moments are what this thing should be trying to draw out of the players. To get this you need to provide options that are challenging, cool, and will allow them make gains on their target.

Diversify the situation, maybe the runners toss the object back and for between them, playing keep away... over roof tops.

Hide and seek scenes, like the basket scene from Raiders of the Lost Arc are **** for bringing in perception and more cerebral PCs

Try to split the party. Nothing says turn about like the wizard catching up to his make only to realize he's surrounded by five toughs and he's all alone.

Improvised weapons. You want people interacting with the environment to pull out un expected reasults. Offer them to your players and/or have the chased character use them (like the curry paste in the Ong Bak klip).

Comedy. Have funny little things happen. It's a must

Besure you've mapped out the routes and set pieces before hand. Be sure to convey this information to the players in graphic enough terms they can latch on to them and interact with the environment. Maps are a good way convey information in a concrete fashion. You may want to draft out the map(s) before hand as stopping to draw will take away from the pace and sense of urgency.

---
also good, but not quite up to Tony Jaa http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HiBB4Dyudns&feature=related

valadil
2011-01-10, 10:34 PM
Sounds like it could be fun. I think the challenge will be diversity. Most of the physical obstacles I can think of would rely on athletics. You don't want to have to reuse skills in skill challenges. Make sure you have enough variety that it's not just a series of athletics checks.

Loren
2011-01-10, 10:50 PM
Thing the chased split up is one way to diversify the skill checks. One chased could try use to out wit the pursuers while the other pure speed.

example "there appear to be two them. Seeing that you've noticed them a heavy set man hurries into knot of passers by and disappears from view while a spray young woman leaps up and catches the eases of a one story hut. She flings herself over theedge and disappears from view. Go!"

Watch out for magic missle type things. Magic can really ruin a good action sequence.

As for xp, I'd add the xp from the skill challenge to the xp for the minions.

Chainsaw Hobbit
2011-01-11, 12:23 AM
that would require either Schrodinger's Trap (and unreasonable fiat), or having something nasty waiting after every obstacle, because you don't know ahead of time which they'll choose to bypass. Plus, that means all the non-Eladrin have extra problems to deal with.

Have that nasty thing not exist until the eladrin lands on it, putting it in the first place the eladrin lands.

Kaulesh
2011-01-11, 12:52 AM
Have that nasty thing not exist until the eladrin lands on it, putting it in the first place the eladrin lands.

That is the meaning of Schrodinger's Trap.

Excession
2011-01-11, 05:43 AM
Eladrin have an advantage, let them use it. Once per encounter for one PC shouldn't break too much. Other races have their own tricks, and they can use those too. If the enemies aren't human they get to use their tricks too.

Let your players use normal attacks as well. Just remember that taking time to stop and fire a magic missile or arrow means you're missing out on half your movement. Maybe that "Slow (save ends)" daily is worth it, if it hits, but maybe throwing spells about in a crowded marketplace has its own issues. Use "Yes, but..." for those rather than "No." You always get a second chance to finish the chase with the second pickpocket, because obviously the one they stop first doesn't have the loot.

I wouldn't make the pickpockets minions though, make the payers work a bit for their win. Also, give them a plot hook that the players can find as well. Everything should have meaning.

Sipex
2011-01-11, 09:15 AM
I agree on making this a sort of skill challenge, it's incredibly hard to create a running grid map (especially with characters moving 14,16 and 18 squares a turn and that's without feats).

Crow
2011-01-11, 09:54 AM
Make the perps Eladrin as well, then they can use the teleport advantage when the PC Eladrin does.

Also, when they corner the runner at that gap that "no man can clear", she can go *blink*, and the chase is back on.

tcrudisi
2011-01-11, 09:55 AM
Make the perps Eladrin as well, then they can use the teleport advantage when the PC Eladrin does.

The OP never said there was an Eladrin PC. That was speculation on the part of another poster.

Crow
2011-01-11, 10:01 AM
The OP never said there was an Eladrin PC. That was speculation on the part of another poster.

Whatever, it's still fun.

The Glyphstone
2011-01-11, 10:31 AM
Make the perps Eladrin as well, then they can use the teleport advantage when the PC Eladrin does.

Also, when they corner the runner at that gap that "no man can clear", she can go *blink*, and the chase is back on.


The OP never said there was an Eladrin PC. That was speculation on the part of another poster.


Whatever, it's still fun.

Heck, make the perps Eladrin whether or not there is an Eladrin PC, specifically for the bolded reason.

Anansi
2011-01-11, 10:57 AM
I second the skill-based approach to this. Maybe instead of comparing running speeds to determine when a character is caught, make it that a player has to have, say, three consecutive successes against obstacles while pursuing the pickpocket to catch up to him. If you have a player with exceptionally higher speed, consider reducing the number of successes required to reflect this.

I'd lay out a map with certain routes blocked by skill checks. e.g. There's a narrow alleyway with a high wall, which can be passed by making a Climb check DC 20; otherwise, you have to run around the block to get to the other side. Or a pile of precariously stacked crates and barrels, which can be used with a successful Acrobatics check to leap over the wall or to gain on the fleeing pickpocket, but failure sends everything crashing to the ground and eliminates this shortcut.

Ignoring the turnabout of the video and the inherent martial arts prowess, what are some of the components of the chase that makes it work?

You have obstacles which threaten damage - the barbed wire ring, the weapons display. Players failing checks here might take damage instead of being slowed down; put them in a position where the most expedient path can be a risky one.

You have situations requiring forethought and observation. Using a stack of tires as a springboard, or recognizing that you can slip under that cart. Potential Spot checks to see clever alternate paths, or give a good description of one particular area and give the player a few seconds to decide how he's going to progress through it. Have the pickpockets creating difficult terrain or slick spots behind them as they run. Don't let the pickpockets know every trick and corner; give your players a chance to outfox them.

You have situations which put others at risk. Sprinting through a murder of children, leaping over bystanders, or sending potentially hazardous objects flying into the crowd. As with the dangerous obstacles, put the players in a situation where the most expedient path can be a risky one.. for other people. Will your Lawful Good player risk an innocent's safety? Will he continue the chase if someone else is hurt or threatened in the process? Will your Neutral Evil player shove that little old lady into a pile of manure to gain a few inches on his pocket change?

Anything you can do to emphasize the players' decisions will make the actual rolls and skill checks more poignant. I might not care whether I succeed or fail on my third Athletics check, but I certainly will be watching the dice with bated breath if I just watched a child get struck by a falling object because this thieving jerk is trying to cover his path.

Crow
2011-01-11, 11:02 AM
Will your Neutral Evil player shove that little old lady into a pile of manure to gain a few inches on his pocket change?

You're darn right I will!

tcrudisi
2011-01-11, 11:19 AM
Heck, make the perps Eladrin whether or not there is an Eladrin PC, specifically for the bolded reason.

I certainly agree. It just seemed that many of the posts were about how to get around Eladrin PC's when that wasn't even indicated as a problem by the OP. I just wanted to try to steer us back on the right track. I like the idea of using Eladrin perps as it does give a good reason for the skill challenge to be more difficult.

Actually, I should say that I like the idea of tailoring the skill challenge to the strengths of the perps, whether those strengths are racial or class-based (perhaps they are reflavored Rogues, for instance). If the perps are Drow, making the skill challenge take place at night where their night vision gives them a distinct advantage is another way.


You have obstacles which threaten damage - the barbed wire ring, the weapons display. Players failing checks here might take damage instead of being slowed down; put them in a position where the most expedient path can be a risky one.

Typically, instead of dealing damage a failed roll will result in a loss of a healing surge. The loss of a healing surge is typically much worse than just doing straight damage and it helps the scene move faster (rather than rolling damage, it's easier to say and mark down a loss of 1 healing surge rather than calculating damage).

Earthwalker
2011-01-11, 11:48 AM
In my current planning for a Pathfinder campaign I am having a few chase scenes through a city as part of the plot.

I am sorry I don't know $e but hopfully these may help with some ideas of skill checks / challenges to overcome.

As well as the standard climb / jump / balance issues.


The thieves run through a posh party, appearing to blend in to the crowd. So bluff type skills to move thru without being held up by bouncers.

Jumping into the sewers to follow one thief, make a fort save to follow one of the thieves.

The thieves sneak past some gaurds on one of the cities inner walls. Sneak past to follow, or maybe diplomacy to get by.

Jumping into an open window one thief runs thru some mad alchemist lab. Make a spellcraft (knowledge arcane) to find a safe route through to follow.

Dashing through the warehouse district a herd of cattle are being moved into one of the slaughter houses, handle animal or maybe intimidate to get them out of your way to follow.