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Hadessniper
2011-01-10, 07:56 PM
*Warning long backstory*

In the campaign my group is running one of our players past characters turned NPC is a sort of aspiring entrepreneur in a shady city, he currently owns a bar/inn, a bathhouse, and a small casino he just acquired that is currently half burnt down and covered in gore from a necromancer who tried to take up residence. Our party works for this NPC doing his odd jobs and generally protecting his interests.

Our party has two melee based characters one fighter and one barbarian who are often called to be doormen/bouncers at the bar/inn, unfortunately they are played by the two most immature tough guy players of our bunch so they tend to suck at their jobs and cause the rest of us problems. Like when said casino was under attack and they were guarding the back door. Someone was dowsing the place with alcohol to burn it down, so one of them went to grapple the arsonist to stop him from throwing his torch on the now flammable building. He failed his opposed grapple and ended up getting dowsed with alcohol himself. The other ended up grabbing the lit torch from the arsonist then decided since the rest of the party was still inside now would be the perfect time for a little barbarian flambé. You should note that he had just taken away the torch he hadn't secured the arsonist in any way.

Anyway they have gotten over the backstabby tendencies for the most part, but they still tend to suck at their jobs when not told expressly what to do. They are both playing big strong fighter types as they almost always do, so what I want to do is bring in a tiny little kobold that will completely take the piss out of them. I want him to be an uber fighter that will handle their jobs ten times better than they could. He will eventually be a kind of supervisor to keep them in check.

I normally don't run pure melee builds I normally stick to casters so this really isn't my area of expertise but my initial idea for the build would be a swordsage focusing on setting sun, as the picture of a kobold throwing big tough guys around is hilarious, but as I have little experience with melee builds I'm still very malleable. I do have a small amount of experience with crusaders and warblades but I've never made a swordsage and I couldn't find any handbooks for the class so I guess I'm turning to you guys for help. The party is level three but I won't be able to bring in this character for a while and I want to have a bit of a plan to level him so if you could give me suggestions for levels 5-10 I'd be eternally grateful.

Update
Update. Our party sort of TPK'ed itself. Everyone died or was forced to flee except for the barbarian and the NPC. I decided to make my Kobold, Ix, a real character rather than a lesson for the other PCs.

Here is what I went with.
Flaws:
Shaky

Feats:
Shadow Blade
Weapon Finesse
Adaptive Style

Stances:
Island of Blades
Stonefoot Stance
Assassin's Stance

Main Tactics & Maneuvers:
Get the wizard to buff me with haste prebattle.

In Assassin's Stance use Cloak of Deception to become invisible and get sneak attack on my full unarmed strike haste claw claw bite attack.

Have Fire Riposte ready for when I get hit.

Use Shadow Jaunt to teleport and hide.

Reload my maneuvers then run out and hit something with Soaring Raptor Strike.

Repeat until everything is dead.

Moment of Perfect Mind rounds out my last readied maneuver.


Any tip or adjustments you could recommended would still be welcome.

Keld Denar
2011-01-10, 08:01 PM
You have natural weapons, use them. Take Improved Unarmed Strike (or be an Unarmed Swordsage), and fight with your UAS as your primary weapon with your natural weapons as secondary natural weapons. Since your UAS doesn't interfere with attacking with your natural weapons, you can make a decent number of attacks. I'd drop a feat on Multiattack at low levels, simply so your secondary natural attacks aren't a flurry of misses. Shadow Blade would be a great investment, since it boosts your damage/hit, as would be the Desert Wind Burning/Searing/Inferno Blade line. At higher levels, Snap Kick will give you more attacks/round, as will Dragon Tail and a few other kobold specific feats.

Endarire
2011-01-10, 08:09 PM
Consider a Rogue level for sneak attack and the Multiattack feat. Unarmed Swordsage1/Rogue1 with Burning Blade (maneuver), Multiattack (feat), and Shadow Blade (feat) can do lots of damage if he hits.

Also, Tiny Von BigMcLargeHuge (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=6428.0).

FMArthur
2011-01-10, 08:11 PM
You could also run an Iaijutsu Focus-centric character using Confound the Big Folk to get it on every attack, which are made with Gnome Quickrazors. He could wield four simultaneously, with a mouthpick quickrazor and the Prehensile Tail feat, and get the Multi-Weapon Fighting feat to make them all more likely to hit. :smallbiggrin:

Keld Denar
2011-01-10, 08:12 PM
get the Multiattack feat to make them all great.

Do you mean Multiweapon Fighting? Is so, you explicitly need 3+ arms to qualify. I didn't think that Prehensile Tail counted as an arm WRT Multiweapon Fighting?

FMArthur
2011-01-10, 09:03 PM
Crap. Oh well, it's not like attacks versus flat-footed foes are especially hard to land.

Hadessniper
2011-01-10, 09:04 PM
You could also run an Iaijutsu Focus-centric character using Confound the Big Folk to get it on every attack, which are made with Gnome Quickrazors. He could wield four simultaneously, with a mouthpick quickrazor and the Prehensile Tail feat, and get the Multi-Weapon Fighting feat to make them all more likely to hit. :smallbiggrin:

If I were to pull that out I feel like I would eventually be pelted with dice.



Consider a Rogue level for sneak attack and the Multiattack feat. Unarmed Swordsage1/Rogue1 with Burning Blade (maneuver), Multiattack (feat), and Shadow Blade (feat) can do lots of damage if he hits.

You have natural weapons, use them. Take Improved Unarmed Strike (or be an Unarmed Swordsage), and fight with your UAS as your primary weapon with your natural weapons as secondary natural weapons. Since your UAS doesn't interfere with attacking with your natural weapons, you can make a decent number of attacks. I'd drop a feat on Multiattack at low levels, simply so your secondary natural attacks aren't a flurry of misses. Shadow Blade would be a great investment, since it boosts your damage/hit, as would be the Desert Wind Burning/Searing/Inferno Blade line. At higher levels, Snap Kick will give you more attacks/round, as will Dragon Tail and a few other kobold specific feats.

These sound very reasonable, but it sounds like I will be very strapped for feats. Also as I would have an abysmal str wouldn't taking weapon finesse make more sense than taking shadow blade as I have to hit before I can add damage? As of now I'm thinking dragon tail at one weapon finesse at three and multiattack at six then maybe snap kick at nine.

The Glyphstone
2011-01-10, 09:06 PM
Does it have to be a kobold? The Killer Gnome 2.0 is a small melee build that's absolutely devastating...though if you're just trying to teach them a lesson and not kill them, probably not what you want.

Keld Denar
2011-01-10, 09:07 PM
You'll definitely want to go with Unarmed Swordsage then to get Improved Unarmed Strike for free. If you hold an actual WEAPON in your clawed hand, you can't make claw attacks.

I'd go:

1 Multiattack
3 Finesse
6 Shadow Blade
9 Snap Kick

If anything. Dragon Tail is nice, but you'll get more average damage this way, I think. If you can take a flaw or two, then Dragon Tail would be a viable option.

Hadessniper
2011-01-10, 09:09 PM
Does it have to be a kobold? The Killer Gnome 2.0 is a small melee build that's absolutely devastating...though if you're just trying to teach them a lesson and not kill them, probably not what you want.

It doesn't have to be but I think being beat up by a fighter that has a combined total of -6 in str and con penalties is too poetic to pass up.

The Glyphstone
2011-01-10, 09:14 PM
It doesn't have to be but I think being beat up by a fighter that has a combined total of -6 in str and con penalties is too poetic to pass up.

When you're bypassing Str entirely, it doesn't matter what their penalty is...and dumping his Con could be a bad idea. Depending on how high overleveled you make him, if your party decides to be obstinate and fight back...a lucky crit from the Barb might kill him, and you're reduced to railroading his survival, which isn't good.

Besides, it'll be more humiliating if they get beat up by a gnome. Kobolds are weak, but they're nasty and vicious. Everyone laughs at gnomes, which makes a competent and dangerous one all the more surprising.

Hadessniper
2011-01-10, 09:25 PM
When you're bypassing Str entirely, it doesn't matter what their penalty is...and dumping his Con could be a bad idea. Depending on how high overleveled you make him, if your party decides to be obstinate and fight back...a lucky crit from the Barb might kill him, and you're reduced to railroading his survival, which isn't good.

Besides, it'll be more humiliating if they get beat up by a gnome. Kobolds are weak, but they're nasty and vicious. Everyone laughs at gnomes, which makes a competent and dangerous one all the more surprising.

I just like the idea of this http://www.tvini.com/images/misc/RPG/kobold.jpg
beating this
http://images.wikia.com/diablo/images/f/fd/Barbarian_medium.jpgin a fair fight

I plan on him being equal level with the party and I'm not dumping con just taking a small hit in it. We play max HP anyway so it's unlikely he will go down too quickly.

The Glyphstone
2011-01-10, 09:35 PM
I just like the idea of this http://www.tvini.com/images/misc/RPG/kobold.jpg
beating this
http://images.wikia.com/diablo/images/f/fd/Barbarian_medium.jpgin a fair fight

I plan on him being equal level with the party and I'm not dumping con just taking a small hit in it. We play max HP anyway so it's unlikely he will go down too quickly.

If you want him to win, equal CR is a bad, bad idea. Encounter math expects the party to curbstomp a fight of their ECL=CR, spending only 20% of their resources/spells/consumables/HP. Especially in a two-on-one fight.

And we're assuming this:

http://www.cryptomundo.com/wp-content/uploads/gnome.jpg

is scarier than this:

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/rodragon_gallery/94135.jpg


On the other hand, nothing stops you from taking the Killer Gnome and just allowing Kobolds to qualify for all the Gnome-only stuff...none of it except Giantslayer is really gnome fluff-specific.

Tiki Snakes
2011-01-10, 09:44 PM
Statwise, especially at melee, yes.

http://www.tvini.com/images/misc/RPG/kobold.jpg

Is significantly less scary than

http://www.cryptomundo.com/wp-content/uploads/gnome.jpg

A creature taking a net -4 loss to ability scores is a good chunk less intimidating than one that does not take any net loss. Making a decent melee kobold is no small trick.

Hadessniper
2011-01-10, 09:56 PM
You'll definitely want to go with Unarmed Swordsage then to get Improved Unarmed Strike for free. If you hold an actual WEAPON in your clawed hand, you can't make claw attacks.

I'd go:

1 Multiattack
3 Finesse
6 Shadow Blade
9 Snap Kick

If anything. Dragon Tail is nice, but you'll get more average damage this way, I think. If you can take a flaw or two, then Dragon Tail would be a viable option.
I knew I was forgetting something, I need to take Adaptive Style as quick as I can so I can actually recover my maneuver in a halfway reasonable time. So I think I need to drop Multiattack and replace it with Adaptive Style

The Glyphstone
2011-01-10, 09:59 PM
Statwise, especially at melee, yes.

http://www.tvini.com/images/misc/RPG/kobold.jpg

Is significantly less scary than

http://www.cryptomundo.com/wp-content/uploads/gnome.jpg

A creature taking a net -4 loss to ability scores is a good chunk less intimidating than one that does not take any net loss. Making a decent melee kobold is no small trick.

I've been talking about perception from the beginning though, not statwise...kobolds are considered weak fodder, and are weak mechanically. But Gnomes are the butt of the most jokes I've ever heard in D&D - they're considered silly, despite being quite tough mechanically. If the pride is personal, to beat the players with a weak race, go kobold. If the pride is in having the players feel beaten by a weak race, gnome can be a valid option too, and comes pre-supplied with a well-optimized combat build.

FMArthur
2011-01-10, 10:19 PM
I've been talking about perception from the beginning though, not statwise...kobolds are considered weak fodder, and are weak mechanically. But Gnomes are the butt of the most jokes I've ever heard in D&D - they're considered silly, despite being quite tough mechanically. If the pride is personal, to beat the players with a weak race, go kobold. If the pride is in having the players feel beaten by a weak race, gnome can be a valid option too, and comes pre-supplied with a well-optimized combat build.

Really? I've never really heard of anyone thinking Gnomes are disadvantaged in a fight or just considering them nonthreatening in a general way. There's a lot of tricks for the small melee character to take great advantage of and Gnomes are often regarded as being great rogues.

Kobolds are basically the traditional mook. Eternal underdogs. They are horrible fighters, thematically and mechanically. It's a real challenge to get it to work and a triumph of optimization to make it work in ways that are actually unique to Kobolds. Normal players aren't always familiar with the grossly overpowered forms of Kobold cheese - they are just paper-thin, cottonswab weak fodder to most. The lowest of the low. A race of mooks whose sole purpose is to meet the enemy in battle and be slain instantly and without fear.

dgnslyr
2011-01-11, 01:32 AM
Well, the biggest advantage of kobolds is that they get 3 (Three!!) natural attacks as a LA+0 race. Combine that with unarmed strikes, Multiattack feat, and a prehensile tail, and you get plenty of vehicles to deliver precision damage. The way the build is going now, the Swordsage levels for that fast sneak attack looks solid, just make sure you have a way to actually activate it.

Personally, I wonder if a Scout/Ranger Swift Hunter could work? You get a relatively easy-to-activate precision damage source, nearly full BAB for those iteratives, plenty of skills for a sneaky guy, and some spiffy little doodads like an animal companion and some spells. I wonder if TWF works with Unarmed Strikes? No reason it wouldn't, I think. Not sure on the specifics, but it's a start, yes?

Maybe not the most lethal build around, but with 3 natural attacks + at least 2 iteratives + 1 Snap Kick + 1 TWF + 1 prehensile tail = 8 natural attacks.

8 x 3d6 skirmish is not so bad, eh?

Greenish
2011-01-11, 01:36 AM
What level should he be?

dgnslyr
2011-01-11, 01:36 AM
I believe the OP asked for a build from 5-10.

AslanCross
2011-01-11, 01:38 AM
I think a Dex-based Setting Sun/Stone Dragon Unarmed Swordsage is the way to go here. Throw stuff! Throw people! Break people! Break their stuff!

If you want to Gish things up, taking Mighty/Greater Mighty Wallop is a must.

Eldariel
2011-01-11, 01:41 AM
On the other hand, nothing stops you from taking the Killer Gnome and just allowing Kobolds to qualify for all the Gnome-only stuff...none of it except Giantslayer is really gnome fluff-specific.

While it's wrong in quite a few ways, Kobold Stoneblessed: Gnome (Eternal enemies? Yay!) would offer you a RAW version to accomplish this. Just good ol' Blade Bravo fun. In vein of The Other Killer Gnome (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872846/I_May_Be_Tiny,_But_Youre_Dead:_the_other,_melee_Ki ller_Gnome,_for_your_pleasure.), you could be The Other Killer Kobold.

Greenish
2011-01-11, 01:44 AM
If you feel really feat starved, a dip to Hit and Run Tactics (DotU) fighter is in order. You get dex to damage vs. flat-footed enemies (so 2x dex with shadow blade) and a small initiative boost. And of course fighter feats.

Hadessniper
2011-01-14, 07:23 AM
Update. Our party sort of TPK'ed itself. Everyone died or was forced to flee except for the barbarian and the NPC. I decided to make my Kobold, Ix, a real character rather than a lesson for the other PCs.

Here is what I went with.
Flaws:
Shaky

Feats:
Shadow Blade
Weapon Finesse
Adaptive Style

Stances:
Island of Blades
Stonefoot Stance
Assassin's Stance

Main Tactics & Maneuvers:
Get the wizard to buff me with haste prebattle.

In Assassin's Stance use Cloak of Deception to become invisible and get sneak attack on my full unarmed strike haste claw claw bite attack.

Have Fire Riposte ready for when I get hit.

Use Shadow Jaunt to teleport and hide.

Reload my maneuvers then run out and hit something with Soaring Raptor Strike.

Repeat until everything is dead.

Moment of Perfect Mind rounds out my last readied maneuver.


Any tip or adjustments you could recommended would be welcome.

Gnome Alone
2011-01-14, 12:07 PM
Update. Our party sort of TPK'ed itself. Everyone died or was forced to flee except for the barbarian and the NPC. I decided to make my Kobold, Ix, a real character rather than a lesson for the other PCs.

Wait, so did you already kill them with this krazy killer kobold, or did they unrelatedly TPK'd themselves and now the kobold's going to sneak into the recovery ward and slaughter them again?

Draz74
2011-01-14, 02:01 PM
I'll just point out that the Kobold Racial Substitution (fighter) levels are actually pretty decent, so a Kobold Swordsage 1 / Fighter 4 / Swordsage +15 is actually pretty viable.

nedz
2011-01-14, 06:07 PM
I'll just point out that the Kobold Racial Substitution (fighter) levels are actually pretty decent, so a Kobold Swordsage 1 / Fighter 4 / Swordsage +15 is actually pretty viable.

Where do I find those ?

Greenish
2011-01-14, 06:09 PM
Where do I find those ?Races of the Dragon and it's web preview (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060106a&page=3).

[Edit]: Though I'd rather use Hit and Run tactics ACF from DotU.

Hadessniper
2011-01-14, 06:53 PM
Wait, so did you already kill them with this krazy killer kobold, or did they unrelatedly TPK'd themselves and now the kobold's going to sneak into the recovery ward and slaughter them again?
No they TPK'ed themselves in a pretty epic party fight, our group enjoys the occasional PC on PC fight so it wasn't a huge deal. I've decided to use Ix as a PC.


I'll just point out that the Kobold Racial Substitution (fighter) levels are actually pretty decent, so a Kobold Swordsage 1 / Fighter 4 / Swordsage +15 is actually pretty viable.

Yeah but I'm pretty sold on a dex based Swordsage. If I were going to go Str based I could see taking the sub lvls, but as of now I have much more need of feats than stat boosts.

Hit and Run tactics is tempting, and I'll keep my eye on it in the future, but for the time being I think I'm going to keep going pure Swordsage. As there isn't a feat I'm so desperate for it would be worth the extra maneuvers.