Are elves and humans really that biologically different in OotS?

[paladinofshojo]

When Roy had his gender changed after he put on that belt, V didn't recognize him to be any different. I was wondering if that was due to biological differences between gender are different for elves in OoTS. But aside from the longevity and pointy ears, they're seems to be no difference between elves and humans, or so we presume.

Neither the most prominent elf nor his/her life partner show any signs of female characteristics(found in humans) but they have children (though it can probably be that they're a same-sex couple who adopted). So can it be that humans and elves are two species so anatomically alien from each other that it is hard for one race to tell the gender of the other, and vice versa?

But then raises the question of reproduction, since to be counted as a species one must be able to mate and produce FERTILE offspring (well in biology anyway). But the only elf/human hybrid that we've seen so far does show interest in females, (though it could be a psychological cover up) so it begs the question are humans and elves biologically the same species or not?

[Raging Gene Ray]

When Roy had his gender changed after he put on that belt, V didn't recognize him to be any different.

This was just a joke that started years ago when the first comics had come out and one poster couldn't tell V's gender. Rich had intended V to be obviously male, but he liked the running gag so V (and only V and hir family) gets the androgynous thing.

V's androgyny doesn't mean Rich has thought of a clever alternate biology any more than It's Pat is a well thought out examination of gender roles and the socioeconomic consequences of refusing to adopt them.

[NerfTW]

[QUOTE=Raging Gene Ray;10134816]Rich had intended V to be obviously male, but he liked the running gag so V (and only V and hir family) gets the androgynous thing.
[QUOTE]

That is not in any way true. The origin is correct, but he has never stated that V was intended to be male.

[Raging Gene Ray]

That is not in any way true. The origin is correct, but he has never stated that V was intended to be male.

I heard that in the form of a secondhand or thirdhand forum post, so it might be. The point is, V's gender is officially "living joke" and in no way representative of elves as a whole in OotS.

[Dr.Epic]

It's just a joke to illustrate how ambiguous V is to gender.

[The Glyphstone]

I heard that in the form of a secondhand or thirdhand forum post, so it might be. The point is, V's gender is officially "living joke" and in no way representative of elves as a whole in OotS.

I believe the actual text (in Dungeon Crawlin' Fools, maybe?) is that Rich had a defined gender, but ran with the ambiguity instead. He's never stated one way or the other which gender he intended.

[Mad Mask]

It is, in all likelihood, male. If Vaarsuvius had been conceived as the opposite gender, more prominent secondary sexual characteristics would probably have been included.

[Morquard]

I believe the actual text (in Dungeon Crawlin' Fools, maybe?) is that Rich had a defined gender, but ran with the ambiguity instead. He's never stated one way or the other which gender he intended.

I think I read a post from Rich once where he refered to V as "he" and it was mentioned he usually does that. But not because V is male, but simply because he needs a pronoun for V, and apperently dislikes those artifical constructs like "hir" etc.

That may point to V originally being male (so he still is in the Giant's mind) or not.

As for why humans and elves can have offsprings: Humans in fantasy seem capable of copulating and procreating with almost anything ;) Pretty much like dragons.
It's fantasy after all, applying RL species definitions to it doesn't make much sense.
Also, if in doubt: A wizard did it. Or: It's magic.

[LOTRfan]

I think I read a post from Rich once where he refered to V as "he" and it was mentioned he usually does that. But not because V is male, but simply because he needs a pronoun for V, and apperently dislikes those artifical constructs like "hir" etc.

That may point to V originally being male (so he still is in the Giant's mind) or not.

Grammatically speaking, "he" is the proper word when referring to a person of unknown gender. That's all.

[Morquard]

Grammatically speaking, "he" is the proper word when referring to a person of unknown gender. That's all.

Agreed. But it might be the reason for those "THe giant had V being male in the beginning" theories.

[LOTRfan]

Agreed. But it might be the reason for those "THe giant had V being male in the beginning" theories.

Oh, well there's no disagreeing with you there. If that is what you were saying before, I apologize for not being on the same page. :smallsmile:

[raisethearmy]

If we consider this from an evolutionary standpoint assuming that the stick-verse is ancient, and that the current era of the stick-veres comes thousands of years after the recreation of the world by the gods, then we can assume that many of the races evolved from the same base race.

If we agree that that is a valid statement then we can use the evidence from the real world that life-forms can mate successfully within their on close Genus, (ex. tigers/lions, humans/Neanderthals). This rule would probably carry over to the stick-verse.

If this solution is inaccurate the reason for it is that I missed some piece of background information, am totally out of my mind, and like to type.

[Morquard]

I think somewhere in the comic the date has been stated, I think its around 1200ish years after the snarl incident and creation of World 2.0.

Also I don't believe there's much "evolution" going on in the Stickyverse. Elves and humans and goblins etc have all been created by the gods, for one purpose or another.

[raisethearmy]

Fair enough, I only brought it up for discussion. Like I said, I'm probably insane.

[Cerlis]

I just think its a matter of Male and female elves looking so simular -to each other- (so V really has no basis for "what is male" other than , say, literature and personal exerience from humans whos gender she does know) and that their culture doesnt put any emphasis on gender, even when it comes to couples and marriage.

[CletusMusashi]

Lirian is obviously female.
V is obviously... not... and has gravitated toward someone else who is ALSO not obviously so.
It doesn't really seem to be about elves in general being androgynous, any more than Pat on SNL was about humans being androgynous.
What's that, Gannji? Yes, I know. They only have one! Hee hee hee hee hee!

[paladinofshojo]

If we agree that that is a valid statement then we can use the evidence from the real world that life-forms can mate successfully within their on close Genus, (ex. tigers/lions, humans/Neanderthals). This rule would probably carry over to the stick-verse.



This rule also implies that said hybrids are sterile, which may be why Pompey is trying so hard to win over females

[Cerlis]

Lirian is obviously female.
V is obviously... not... and has gravitated toward someone else who is ALSO not obviously so.
It doesn't really seem to be about elves in general being androgynous, any more than Pat on SNL was about humans being androgynous.
What's that, Gannji? Yes, I know. They only have one! Hee hee hee hee hee!

yes, but isnt she wearing somethign whos material would easily show off her breasteseses. If V would just wear a Unitard everything would be solved.

what i mean is that if you had two elves with simular skintone, eye color haircolor , gave them the same haircut and same baggey cloths, they would probably look identical, because their features both increase on the same "slider". Both become feminate looking, int he same way (as in they both become <probably) feminate in a supermodel kinda way not a rosey cheeked cheribic girl kinda way). where as even when you have brother and sister humans who look exactly the same can only be told apparet by the brother having a slightly bigger nose and slightly different cheekbones (facially) then a race who is for all intents and purposes more female looking as a whole, would be nearly impossible to tell.

[Deliverance]

Neither the most prominent elf nor his/her life partner show any signs of female characteristics(found in humans) but they have children (though it can probably be that they're a same-sex couple who adopted).

Point of order (not bearing on your main question): We know that V's children are adopted - see strip 631 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0631.html). Same-sex or opposite-sex, either can be the case as we have zero knowledge to suggest which of the two is the case.

[Nimrod's Son]

Rich's first post about V's sex is here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/archive/index.php/index.php?t-7333.html), about a quarter of the way the first page. He's never categorically stated that V was intended to be male, but given the context it seems pretty much a certainty.

[Themrys]

When Roy had his gender changed after he put on that belt, V didn't recognize him to be any different. I was wondering if that was due to biological differences between gender are different for elves in OoTS. But aside from the longevity and pointy ears, they're seems to be no difference between elves and humans, or so we presume.

Neither the most prominent elf nor his/her life partner show any signs of female characteristics(found in humans) but they have children (though it can probably be that they're a same-sex couple who adopted). So can it be that humans and elves are two species so anatomically alien from each other that it is hard for one race to tell the gender of the other, and vice versa?

But then raises the question of reproduction, since to be counted as a species one must be able to mate and produce FERTILE offspring (well in biology anyway). But the only elf/human hybrid that we've seen so far does show interest in females, (though it could be a psychological cover up) so it begs the question are humans and elves biologically the same species or not?

Well, you know, there are African tribes who don't have separate words for blue and green and also seem unable to disginguish those two colours.
Since elves don't have genders in their language, it is very likely that V just doesn't see much of a difference.
In addition, all humans are of the same species, but I still have difficulties to see differences in the faces of, for example, Chinese if I don't know them.
Roy is not only a human, he also has dark skin, which may be something that isn't common in the elves of V's hometown. Then, his sex is changed. He still looks Roy-like, still is a dark-skinned human, and...well, I'm not sure whether the OOTS are stick figures in-universe. If they aren't, Roys breasts may be not as prominent in-universe as they are in the comic.

Also...V isn't very interested in social interaction. Maybe s/he doesn't look at Roy's face that often, so s/he's not able to tell a difference there. Especially with that thing on his head.

Most likely, however, it is just the running-gag going on. ;)

[faustin]

Not even the IFCC was sure about V´s gender.... How can we, poor little mortal, be capable if figure it out?

[Lemonus]

I think V didn't notice because gender doesn't matter to him/her.

[Felixc-91]

Well, you know, there are African tribes who don't have separate words for blue and green and also seem unable to distinguish those two colours.
Since elves don't have genders in their language, it is very likely that V just doesn't see much of a difference.
In addition, all humans are of the same species, but I still have difficulties to see differences in the faces of, for example, Chinese if I don't know them.
Roy is not only a human, he also has dark skin, which may be something that isn't common in the elves of V's hometown. Then, his sex is changed. He still looks Roy-like, still is a dark-skinned human, and...well, I'm not sure whether the OOTS are stick figures in-universe. If they aren't, Roys breasts may be not as prominent in-universe as they are in the comic.

Also...V isn't very interested in social interaction. Maybe s/he doesn't look at Roy's face that often, so s/he's not able to tell a difference there. Especially with that thing on his head.

Most likely, however, it is just the running-gag going on. ;) well of course its a running gag, but that dose not mean we can't try and tie it into the "reality" of the OotS.
and we have evidence that what we see in the comics is literally how they look in universe. see: three finger discount (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0765.html), shadow jumping (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0229.html), and... ok, i can't think of a good third right now but you get my point.
any way, i think that your theory works fairly well.

[Forlong]

If memory serves, V's children were born 20 years ago and are in kindergarten.

Yeah...

[Half-Orc Rage]

If memory serves, V's children were born 20 years ago and are in kindergarten.

Yeah...

That's about right for an elf

[Querzis]

Rich's first post about V's sex is here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/archive/index.php/index.php?t-7333.html), about a quarter of the way the first page. He's never categorically stated that V was intended to be male, but given the context it seems pretty much a certainty.

More importantly then that, comic 9 was already posted before the joke about V gender started and in comic 9 Roy call V «V-man». So yeah the simple fact that other characters where calling V a man before he was supposed to have no gender means that yes, he was intended to be male.

Of course this is irrevelant now. V doesnt have a gender anymore so what he was intended to be at first doesnt matter...though I am still absolutely sure that V and his mate are a gay couple but hey, thats just me.

[Nimrod's Son]

More importantly then that, comic 9 was already posted before the joke about V gender started and in comic 9 Roy call V «V-man». So yeah the simple fact that other characters where calling V a man before he was supposed to have no gender means that yes, he was intended to be male.
Yes, that's precisely the "context" I was talking about in the post you quoted.

[Themrys]

Not even the IFCC was sure about V´s gender.... How can we, poor little mortal, be capable if figure it out?

We do know what V's gender is, we just don't know how it is called in elvish society. Presumably it is "elf".

V's sex on the other hand, that's the thing we don't know, thanks to Belkar and his lack of knowledge on lizard anatomy. However...there is a lizardman in prison with them...maybe Belkar asks him? :smalltongue:


It really gets on my nerves, that "gender" thing - if I try to research how gender roles are enforced by eating a certain kind of food, I get lots and lots of tips on what to eat to get pregnant with a male or female child.
If you English-speaking guys have seperate words for the biology thing and the social-role thing, why do you mix them up like this?

There are cultures that have up to five genders. Maybe OotS elves are like this. However, that would mean V knows about gender roles. S/he doesn't seem to.
It is also implied by the "parent, where is other parent?" dialogue, that elves only have one gender.
(Theoretically it would be possible that there are three genders, female, male and neutral, with both V and Inky being neutral, but then again, V would be familiar with gender clichés.)

[Dvandemon]

It is, in all likelihood, male. If Vaarsuvius had been conceived as the opposite gender, more prominent secondary sexual characteristics would probably have been included.
But V is wearing a robe and thus has such characteristics hidden
Please let's not go into this. Let's stick to the discussion of elves and humans, not V

[An Enemy Spy]

We do know what V's gender is, we just don't know how it is called in elvish society. Presumably it is "elf".

V's sex on the other hand, that's the thing we don't know, thanks to Belkar and his lack of knowledge on lizard anatomy. However...there is a lizardman in prison with them...maybe Belkar asks him? :smalltongue:


It really gets on my nerves, that "gender" thing - if I try to research how gender roles are enforced by eating a certain kind of food, I get lots and lots of tips on what to eat to get pregnant with a male or female child.
If you English-speaking guys have seperate words for the biology thing and the social-role thing, why do you mix them up like this?

There are cultures that have up to five genders. Maybe OotS elves are like this. However, that would mean V knows about gender roles. S/he doesn't seem to.
It is also implied by the "parent, where is other parent?" dialogue, that elves only have one gender.
(Theoretically it would be possible that there are three genders, female, male and neutral, with both V and Inky being neutral, but then again, V would be familiar with gender clichés.)

Wait, how can there be five genders? And what are they?

[An Enemy Spy]

We do know what V's gender is, we just don't know how it is called in elvish society. Presumably it is "elf".

V's sex on the other hand, that's the thing we don't know, thanks to Belkar and his lack of knowledge on lizard anatomy. However...there is a lizardman in prison with them...maybe Belkar asks him? :smalltongue:


It really gets on my nerves, that "gender" thing - if I try to research how gender roles are enforced by eating a certain kind of food, I get lots and lots of tips on what to eat to get pregnant with a male or female child.
If you English-speaking guys have seperate words for the biology thing and the social-role thing, why do you mix them up like this?

There are cultures that have up to five genders. Maybe OotS elves are like this. However, that would mean V knows about gender roles. S/he doesn't seem to.
It is also implied by the "parent, where is other parent?" dialogue, that elves only have one gender.
(Theoretically it would be possible that there are three genders, female, male and neutral, with both V and Inky being neutral, but then again, V would be familiar with gender clichés.)

Wait, how can there be five genders? And what are they?

[Starbuck_II]

V's androgyny doesn't mean Rich has thought of a clever alternate biology any more than It's Pat is a well thought out examination of gender roles and the socioeconomic consequences of refusing to adopt them.

What you didn't find It's Pat, smart humor like I believe it was supposed to be?
Yes, they were doing an examination. It was genuis.

[Ytaker]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K9VmLJ3niVo&feature=player_embedded

Males, females, male to female tranvestites, ftm transvestites, and hermaphrodites.

As far as I know, they're the only culture that have five genders. There's one other with six.

[Cealocanth]

I recall that Boov society in The True Meaning of Smekday had something around 7 genders. Although that's just from a storybook. So, yeah, it's a possibility.

[Squark]

That's about right for an elf

Actually it isn't. Elves reach physical maturity nearly as fast as humans do, but are emotionally teenagers for most of their first century. Because this was only ironed out in splatbooks, a lot of gamers never realized this when D&D was first published, only seeing that elves where considered "adult" around 120. By now, it's become a stock joke that even WoTC pokes fun at.

[veti]

Actually it isn't. Elves reach physical maturity nearly as fast as humans do, but are emotionally teenagers for most of their first century.

Something of a double standard there, then, since human characters can start adventuring from the age of 16 - physically mature, but emotionally still definitely teenage - whereas elves have to wait til they're over 110.

So by SRD, what is it that prevents 30- or 40-year-old elves from being adventurers?

[Kish]

I am grateful that Rich didn't use the by-the-book version of elf aging, obnoxiously humancentric as it is. ("And when we say all these races have different lifespans, we mean they age exactly like humans, except they spend a lot of extra time hovering at around thirty.")

[Leecros]

since human characters can start adventuring from the age of 16 - physically mature

I had a DM once that allowed someone to play an 8 year old female sorceress...


that was...uh....weird :smalleek:

[Squark]

Something of a double standard there, then, since human characters can start adventuring from the age of 16 - physically mature, but emotionally still definitely teenage - whereas elves have to wait til they're over 110.

So by SRD, what is it that prevents 30- or 40-year-old elves from being adventurers?

It isn't in the SRD, actually. The most recent mention of the elf aging was in Races of the Wild, or maybe an FR book (Elven culture is rather fleshed out there, too). However, Races of the Wild points out that there are legends of especially young* elves doing showing incredible maturity- But this is the exception, not the rule.

As a side note, Elves reach physical maturity at 25, not 30-40. And when a human is physically mature is kind of hit or miss- Most people continue puberty into early college.

[dps]

It really gets on my nerves, that "gender" thing - if I try to research how gender roles are enforced by eating a certain kind of food, I get lots and lots of tips on what to eat to get pregnant with a male or female child.
If you English-speaking guys have seperate words for the biology thing and the social-role thing, why do you mix them up like this?

Gender in the original meaning is essentially a liguistic/grammatical construct. In French, for example, every general noun is either masculine or feminine, which determines whether the infinitive that is used with a particular noum is "la" or "le". This is a linguistic convention; it has nothing to do with whether or not the object that the noun refers to is physiologically male or female (or sexless, which is actually the most common). Other languages may have different conventions, and gender may be applied to other parts of speech besides nouns. Linguistically speaking, gender is a form of inflection.

When you look English, it's a language which has lost most of it's inflections in the course of its development. English nouns no longer have gender in the linguistic sense--the infinitive for any general noun is "the". About the only place that English still uses genders is singular pronouns--and the gender of English pronouns is not simply a linguistic convention, but is tied directly to the physiological sex of the object the pronoun refers to--he (male), she (female), or it (indefinate). So for a native English speaker, gender=sex, which is why native speakers of English, from the POV of people whose native languages use gender simply as a grammatical construct, "confuse" gender with sex.

[Nimrod's Son]

It really gets on my nerves, that "gender" thing - if I try to research how gender roles are enforced by eating a certain kind of food, I get lots and lots of tips on what to eat to get pregnant with a male or female child.
If you English-speaking guys have seperate words for the biology thing and the social-role thing, why do you mix them up like this?
My copy of the Oxford English Dictionary lists the tertiary definition of "gender" as being exactly the same as the primary definition of "sex". So while it may not be the main definition of the word, it's a legitimate one all the same.


As a side note, Elves reach physical maturity at 25, not 30-40.
Not in OotS, they don't. V's children are both 26 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0629.html), and in Origin we see V at age 43, and he's still clearly a child.

[Herald Alberich]

Rich had intended V to be obviously male, but he liked the running gag so V (and only V and hir family) gets the androgynous thing.

Not really. Of the elves we've seen, I'd say only Lirian (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0532.html) has a completely unambiguous gender. Take a look at Team Peregrine (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0670.html). The ranger is almost certainly male, but the others could go either way. Polozius (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0742.html) and Aarindarius (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0630.html), too.


My copy of the Oxford English Dictionary lists the tertiary definition of "gender" as being exactly the same as the primary definition of "sex". So while it may not be the main definition of the word, it's a legitimate one all the same.

Some squeamish people don't like to use the word "sex" in that context, and substitute "gender", probably more often than it really ought to be.

Edit: I like the idea that Elvish simply doesn't distinguish gender in the language at all, hence "Parent" and "Other Parent". Note that V has trouble with pronoun pluralization (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0698.html). Elvish may not use pronouns much at all, or may have just a few that cover many tenses and subjects.

[Nimrod's Son]

Of the elves we've seen, I'd say only Lirian (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0532.html) has a completely unambiguous gender.
There are a number of obviously female elves dotted about the prequels, too, and we've seen a couple of female dark (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0087.html) elves (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0497.html) in the online strip.

The idea that all High Elves are ambiguous has yet to be disproved, however.


Some squeamish people don't like to use the word "sex" in that context, and substitute "gender", probably more often than it really ought to be.
You're probably right about the first part, though I'm not sure I agree with the second. It is an acceptable term, after all.

[Herald Alberich]

You're probably right about the first part, though I'm not sure I agree with the second. It is an acceptable term, after all.

How old is your dictionary? Language changes with use; I'd wager it's become more acceptable over time.

[Nimrod's Son]

How old is your dictionary? Language changes with use; I'd wager it's become more acceptable over time.
I've had it about twelve years or so, but yeah, I expect that's the case. Quite when it became acceptable I've no idea, but hey, I don't see the point in resisting language mutations anyway.

[Themrys]

Quite when it became acceptable I've no idea, but hey, I don't see the point in resisting language mutations anyway.

It makes the language poorer when two words that originally had two meanings become one word with the same meaning. They did this to German with the reform of ortography and I hate it.

Squeamishness is no legitimate reason to change a language, nor is the lack of learning ability that caused people to think German ortography was too difficult.
They don't change mathematics so it's easier for people like me, so why change ortography?


I agree that Rich probably intended V to be male. Male artists have this urge to draw breasts on everything remotely female. Also, men like to stereotype women, and V shows little interest in Haley's lime-green-boot-problem in one of the early strips.
Sadly, I don't have enough trust in men's ability to think outside of gender stereotypes to really assume V is female.
In-comic-wise, however, V could very well be female.

@Herald Alberich: I like the idea of a one-gender language. I don't agree on V's problems with pronoun pluralization. S/he pointed out that Girard said "her and us", which means s/he knows the difference. V only doesn't pay attention to pronouns, but knows how to use them allright.

[Nimrod's Son]

It makes the language poorer when two words that originally had two meanings become one word with the same meaning.
They haven't become one word; the original definitions still stand. But it's no longer correct to say they definitively have separate meanings, either, and it's been that way for AT LEAST twelve years, probably a lot longer. If you feel so strongly about it then you're perfectly free to stick to their original definitions, but I'm afraid you can't expect everyone else to do the same. English is a terribly bastardised language at the best of times, and it's never going to become less so, so you may as well just roll with it.

[Conuly]

It makes the language poorer when two words that originally had two meanings become one word with the same meaning.

Except that language doesn't just change in that way, it changes to make words that originally had the same meaning have different meanings. In fact, "One Form, One Meaning" (http://literalminded.wordpress.com/2009/08/26/lollipops-suckers-and-maggots-in-the-trash/) is probably even a little more common.


They did this to German with the reform of ortography and I hate it.

I'm baffled as to how changing the spelling of words altered how people spoke, speech being primary. Of course, I don't speak German. Can you explain?


Squeamishness is no legitimate reason to change a language, nor is the lack of learning ability that caused people to think German ortography was too difficult.

Of course they're legitimate reasons! They're two very common reasons that language changes, in fact! ALL languages change, and they do so for any number of reasons, but I'm thinking that "squeamishness" and "mistakes" have got to be right up there as two of the main driving factors of linguistic evolution.


They don't change mathematics so it's easier for people like me, so why change ortography?

Well, for one thing, because it's orthography.

For another, snarking aside, it's because mathematics is universal and exists even without humans. Long before the first primate chipped two stones together to make a simple tool, one and one made two.

Language, by contrast, is a human thing. There is no orthographic ideal, there are just humans and ideas. The language and writing system exist to serve the needs of people - not the other way around. If fixing the orthography made it easier to learn to read and write without making errors, it was the correct thing to do. Making math easier (something we DO do for little children, actually - telling them they can't subtract a big number from a small number, or telling only about the decimal system) makes for a big mess if uncorrected later, and profits nobody. Making spelling easier is just the opposite.


I don't see the point in resisting language mutations anyway.

Hey, I'm as dyed-in-the-wool descriptivist as they come, but just because I *accept* that language changes it doesn't mean I have to *like* all the changes. Some changes just grate on my ear, and I'm allowed to try, however futilely, to fight the tide!

But with that said, I always thought the distinction between sex (biological) and gender (cultural/mental) was a newer one... maybe because it's newer to me? I should go look it up.

[Nimrod's Son]

Hey, I'm as dyed-in-the-wool descriptivist as they come, but just because I *accept* that language changes it doesn't mean I have to *like* all the changes. Some changes just grate on my ear, and I'm allowed to try, however futilely, to fight the tide!
Well, sure, but at least you accept that it is futile. As I said above, everybody is free to choose which words they like or dislike and use them as they see fit. It annoys me when people try to impose their own standards on others, though, particularly when that other person has used a word that has now entered common use, and is even in a concise dictionary that's more than a decade old.

[Themrys]

I'm baffled as to how changing the spelling of words altered how people spoke, speech being primary. Of course, I don't speak German. Can you explain?


There are words that actually consists of two word, but could be written as one before the reform, which would change their meaning. After the reform, writing the two words together was no longer correct.

Example: "Maß halten" means (to me), "holding a glass with a litre of beer", while "maßhalten" means "to moderate".

So, instead of two constructions with different meaning, we are supposed to use only one and guess from the context what it is supposed to mean. Which is easy in this case but may be harder in others I can't think of at the moment.



I read somewhere, "gender" was only used to describe the gender of words in grammar books before people used it for gender roles.

Squeamishness is like political correctness, you have to substitute a new word every so often because the old one has gotten "dirty". Doesn't really make sense, you end up with a limited number of words and an increased number of insults.

[Bron Baraz]

I don't see the point in resisting language mutations anyway... everybody is free to choose which words they like or dislike and use them as they see fit. It annoys me when people try to impose their own standards on others, though

"I don't know what you mean by 'glory'," Alice said.

Humpty Dumpty smiled contemptuously. "Of course you don't - till I tell you. I meant 'there's a nice knock-down argument for you!'"

"But... 'glory' doesn't mean 'a nice knock-down argument'," Alice objected.

"When I use a word", Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean - neither more nor less."

Without some flexibility, a language stagnates and becomes unused. Without some rigidity, communication becomes impossible - pottering along between the 2 extremes seems to be the most sensible :smallbiggrin:

[Nimrod's Son]

There are words that actually consists of two word, but could be written as one before the reform, which would change their meaning. After the reform, writing the two words together was no longer correct.
Ah, that's a shame. One of my favourite things about German was the way words ran together to make incredibly long words. I stopped having German lessons in 1996, apparently right before this reform took place, and I had no idea that had even happened.


Squeamishness is like political correctness, you have to substitute a new word every so often because the old one has gotten "dirty". Doesn't really make sense, you end up with a limited number of words and an increased number of insults.
Thing is, the old meanings haven't gone away. We haven't lost a word due to squeamishness there, but it has given a new option for people who don't like the stricter definitions. The definitions you gave earlier are still technically more correct, but they're not the only ones.

I hate political correctness as much as anyone, but I don't agree that it's the same thing in this case.


Without some flexibility, a language stagnates and becomes unused. Without some rigidity, communication becomes impossible - pottering along between the 2 extremes seems to be the most sensible :smallbiggrin:
Yeah, that's fair. I'm certainly not advocating using whatever words you feel like to describe any old thing, or we may as well communicate entirely in animal noises. And it even drives me mad when, say, someone says "Pacific" when they mean "specific", which is unbelievably common. But if it ever gets to the point that the word "pacific" is so widely accepted in that sense that it's printed in the OED, I'll stop correcting people, shrug, and move on. Begrudgingly. It's already too late by that point. :smallwink:

[DomaDoma]

Grammatically speaking, "he" is the proper word when referring to a person of unknown gender. That's all.

The only reason "they" isn't is that a bunch of Victorian zealots decided that if it doesn't work in Latin, it doesn't work in English. As it's the only truly gender-neutral term with anything like a vernacular following, I'm not nearly as fussed about it as I am about, say, anymore/nowadays.

Hey, Themrys, I have a decorative German/Austrian mug that says "Halt Mass und Ziel". Now that I know what "Halt Mass" means, what's Ziel?

[The Pilgrim]

More importantly then that, comic 9 was already posted before the joke about V gender started and in comic 9 Roy call V «V-man». So yeah the simple fact that other characters where calling V a man before he was supposed to have no gender means that yes, he was intended to be male.

The Giant's comment on Comic 9:


I have no problem with Vaarsuvius' sex being ambiguous. He/she is an elf, after all.

All you can infer from the last strip is that *Roy* thinks Vaarsuvious is male. ;)

So, no, V was not necessary intended to be male.

[Nimrod's Son]

So, no, V was not necessary intended to be male.
Not necessarily, no, but given the context it's pretty much a certainty. He didn't try to claim that "V-man" could be meant as gender-neutral, the way "guys" or (increasingly) "dude" are sometimes used - he flat out said Roy thought V was male. And since he'd already written that strip without it even occurring to him that V's sex was ambiguous, then I really don't see how there can be any argument at all that Rich had conceived V as being female.

[Bron Baraz]

The only reason "they" isn't is that a bunch of Victorian zealots decided that if it doesn't work in Latin, it doesn't work in English. As it's the only truly gender-neutral term with anything like a vernacular following, I'm not nearly as fussed about it as I am about, say, anymore/nowadays.

I think using 'they' or 'he' in this case is largely a matter of writing style. If it's to make the sentence flow more... attractively, naturally, it doesn't really matter what you use. If your choice is based on a dogma - e.g. hidebound-preservation-of-linguistic/national-purity, or desperately/dispicably-right-on-gender-neutrality - however, then I. Will. Fight you.

:smalltongue:

[Conuly]

So, instead of two constructions with different meaning, we are supposed to use only one and guess from the context what it is supposed to mean. Which is easy in this case but may be harder in others I can't think of at the moment.

No, I'm still confused. When you are speaking and you use either construction, does the person you're speaking to generally have trouble understanding which one you mean? If the words are pronounced in the same way, and clearly understood from context in speech, why should they not be spelled the same way? Speech comes before writing, not the other way around, so writing should match speech.

The argument "We can't reform orthography because then words that sound the same wouldn't be distinguished in writing!" has been made with regards to English as well, always centering around to/too/two. It's always struck me as a particularly illogical argument because, as stated above, if you can tell them apart in speech you shouldn't have any trouble recognizing which is which in the written form as well.


The only reason "they" isn't is that a bunch of Victorian zealots decided that if it doesn't work in Latin, it doesn't work in English.

Hey, Shakespeare said it, I believe it, that settles it! If singular they was good enough for Will, it sure ought to be good enough for you!


And since he'd already written that strip without it even occurring to him that V's sex was ambiguous, then I really don't see how there can be any argument at all that Rich had conceived V as being female.

I thought V's parents conceived V...?

:)

Seriously, though, why ruin the fun? Facts like that just stop the discussion/friendly argument.

[Grogmir]

I think V didn't notice because gender doesn't matter to him/her.

i agree; it isn't elves it V. This has extended to his family as the joke has grown.

[Herald Alberich]

It makes the language poorer when two words that originally had two meanings become one word with the same meaning.

Last night, before the subsequent discussion, I would have said something similar. It doesn't do anyone any favors to make a word more ambiguous. But, I suppose as long as there remains more language enabling you to clarify your meaning in the event of confusion, it's not really a problem.

In this specific case, I grew up thinking that "gender" was a completely synonymous term for the primary definition of "sex", and only learned about its more specific cultural/mental definition relatively recently. I wish that the distinction between them was more clear. But then, maybe I was just sheltered.


i agree; it isn't elves it V. This has extended to his family as the joke has grown.

And most (but not all) other elves, as I said.

[The Pilgrim]

Not necessarily, no, but given the context it's pretty much a certainty. He didn't try to claim that "V-man" could be meant as gender-neutral, the way "guys" or (increasingly) "dude" are sometimes used - he flat out said Roy thought V was male. And since he'd already written that strip without it even occurring to him that V's sex was ambiguous, then I really don't see how there can be any argument at all that Rich had conceived V as being female.

Strip #3 in wich Haley is having a girly conversation with V (talking about color combinations in clothes) would be an argument to defend that Rich conceived V as female. Or, as the most probable case, that he conceived V as androginous.

EDIT: Not to mention that nothing the Giant said in that archive supports your statement that he hadn't thought V's sex was ambiguous before that strip.

[dps]

It makes the language poorer when two words that originally had two meanings become one word with the same meaning. They did this to German with the reform of ortography and I hate it.

Squeamishness is no legitimate reason to change a language, nor is the lack of learning ability that caused people to think German ortography was too difficult.
They don't change mathematics so it's easier for people like me, so why change ortography?

You are aware that, unlike the case with some other languages, there is no organization that has the power or authority to make (or prohibit) changes in the English language, correct? English changes as its usage changes, not as a result of decisions made by some government or academic body. The closest thing that we have to a central authority in English is the OED, and it is only authoritative in a descriptive, as opposed to prescriptive, sense.

[Conuly]

You are aware that, unlike the case with some other languages, there is no organization that has the power or authority to make (or prohibit) changes in the English language, correct? English changes as its usage changes, not as a result of decisions made by some government or academic body.

That goes for all those other languages as well. The official bodies may say "speak this way!" and "write that way!" and may even make that policy for schools or the government, but they cannot force people to alter how they speak, or to NOT alter how they speak.

[Gitman00]

Strip #3 in wich Haley is having a girly conversation with V (talking about color combinations in clothes) would be an argument to defend that Rich conceived V as female. Or, as the most probable case, that he conceived V as androginous.

EDIT: Not to mention that nothing the Giant said in that archive supports your statement that he hadn't thought V's sex was ambiguous before that strip.

Here is a link to the original thread, for reference, beginning at the post which started the whole debate: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=267672&postcount=46

Here's the thing: If Rich had conceived V's gender as ambiguous from the get-go, I'd expect him to either say outright, "V's gender is supposed to be ambiguous," or to mess with the forumites, e.g. "What, you can't tell what gender V is? It seems pretty obvious to me." The wording he uses ("I have no problem with Vaarsuvius' sex being ambiguous,") suggests that he saw it first on the forum, and decided to run with it.

Also, why would Roy say V-man at all if V was meant to be androgynous? I'm thinking from a meta-fiction perspective here. If you introduce a character that's supposed to be androgynous, then you generally don't have your other main characters assume a defined gender for them (at least not before making it clear that the character is androgynous).

As to how different elves are from humans biologically... not very, I think. They can cross-breed, after all, and aside from (maybe) Vaarsuvius and/or Inkyrius, their females seem to have similar secondary sexual characteristics, which in this comic means breasts and eyes in the center of their face (males' eyes are generally closer to the top).

[Querzis]

Strip #3 in wich Haley is having a girly conversation with V (talking about color combinations in clothes) would be an argument to defend that Rich conceived V as female.

You know, most man with a female friend had to hear them talk about shoes at some point. Beside, they are not both having a girly conversation, Haley is having a girly conversation with him. I just cannot see V having responded without any hint of sarcasm «A most grave conondrum you faced» to what Haley said. Secondly, if really want us to go in the stereotype, I could just as easely say that Rich conceived V as a gay male because of what you said.

And I dont get why you're so defensive about it. As we said, for all intent and purpose, V got no gender now. You can totally see him as a girl if you want. But, given the context, theres pretty much no doubt that Rich originally intended V to be male. Once again, when Roy called V «V-man» he still had the gender, he wasnt androgynous yet in Rich mind.

[The Pilgrim]

And I dont get why you're so defensive about it. As we said, for all intent and purpose, V got no gender now. You can totally see him as a girl if you want. But, given the context, theres pretty much no doubt that Rich originally intended V to be male. Once again, when Roy called V «V-man» he still had the gender, he wasnt androgynous yet in Rich mind.

It's me who don't gets why you are being defensive about that "Rich conceived V as a male" thing, without having a remotely solid proof about it.

All you have as proof of the "no dobut that Rich originally intended V to be male" is a subjective interpretation of an ambigous line from The Giant.

If anything, the conversation between Haley and V back in strip #3 is a much more solid proof that Rich conceived V as androginous from scratch.


Here's the thing: If Rich had conceived V's gender as ambiguous from the get-go, I'd expect him to either say outright, "V's gender is supposed to be ambiguous," or to mess with the forumites, e.g. "What, you can't tell what gender V is? It seems pretty obvious to me." The wording he uses ("I have no problem with Vaarsuvius' sex being ambiguous,") suggests that he saw it first on the forum, and decided to run with it.

No, it suggests it not.

The Giant's line:

I have no problem with Vaarsuvius' sex being ambiguous. He/she is an elf, after all.

All you can infer from the last strip is that *Roy* thinks Vaarsuvious is male. ;)

It doesn't inmplies that Rich decided to run V as androginous because of the reactions to comic #9. It implies, if anything, that Rich thought about the "elves are androginous" joke from the beggining.

Also, we know that Rich is very reluctant to change his comic for commentaries of the forumites. So I don't see at all that he decided to force such a major change in a main character just to please a few forum members.

[Gitman00]

It doesn't inmplies that Rich decided to run V as androginous because of the reactions to comic #9. It implies, if anything, that Rich thought about the "elves are androginous" joke from the beggining.

Also, we know that Rich is very reluctant to change his comic for commentaries of the forumites. So I don't see at all that he decided to force such a major change in a main character just to please a few forum members.

Well, I'll agree with you that it's probably not the first time "elves are androgynous" occurred to him. All I'm saying is that, in American English, "I have no problem with that" implies "Okay, I like that idea. Let's go with that," more than it implies, "Yep, that's what I had in mind."

As for your second point, yes. He has said that he doesn't read the forums very much, because when people correctly guess plot twists he has planned, it tempts him to change them, and he doesn't want that. It's also why he prefers we put our predictions in spoiler tags. However, he said that after the comic was well underway. He didn't get serious about a long-term story until about comic 100. In strip 9, he still interacted regularly with the forumites, and didn't have any serious plans for the strip - it was a gag-a-day comic designed to draw people to his website, and characterizations were not well-developed.

[Themrys]

Also, we know that Rich is very reluctant to change his comic for commentaries of the forumites. So I don't see at all that he decided to force such a major change in a main character just to please a few forum members.

Most authors wouldn't change their writing because someone says "I would like it better if XY happened".
That doesn't mean one can't use an idea that's funny just because they didn't have it when they began writing.


V's answer to Haley's complaint about her shoes is clearly sarcastic, since V, female or male doesn't matter, wouldn't be interested in something as trivial as the colour of shoes.

As much as I like to think of V as female, I am well aware that people think in stereotypes unless they make an effort not to, therefore, had Rich intended V to be female, or not clearly male, the answer to Haley's complaint would very likely have been different.

If I remember correctly, Rich even stated officially that V was not intended to be ambigious in the beginning.


@dps: I am well aware that there is no law about it, there is no such law for my mothertongue...but that doesn't mean I have to like the fact that people alter languages in an irrational, stupid way, just because they are squeamish or too lazy to learn new words or whatever.

[Nimrod's Son]

All you have as proof of the "no dobut that Rich originally intended V to be male" is a subjective interpretation of an ambigous line from The Giant.

If anything, the conversation between Haley and V back in strip #3 is a much more solid proof that Rich conceived V as androginous from scratch.
Right, for starters, V is very obviously giving a sarcastic answer there, and probably barely listening to Haley in the first place. V doesn't care about fashion ("Bah! Physical appearances mean little to me! (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0643.html)"). There's no way he would ever consider the choice of either looking uncool or not being able to use a powerful magic item to be "a most grave conundrum". He'd wear the boots without even blinking.

But if that's not compelling enough, I do have further proof that Rich didn't originally plan on V being androgynous, as it happens: the intro commentary to Dungeon Crawlin' Fools.


The character's gender ambiguity was not planned, but after seeing debates among fans on either side of the issue, I decided to take that particular ball and run with it.
So, yeah, I have proof that V was originally written with a definite sex in mind, and feel I have shown pretty conclusively that that sex can only realistically be male. You are of course, as ever, free to disagree - but I'm really not arguing from a position of ignorance here. :smalltongue:


So I don't see at all that he decided to force such a major change in a main character just to please a few forum members.
At the time, "a few forum members" was all he had. A lot of them were likely personal acquaintances of his. He'd barely planned a single thing at that stage, why not take advantage of a good idea?