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Lateral
2011-01-10, 09:13 PM
Would it be a reasonable houserule to give the Psychic Warrior full BAB? It's already a decent class, so I'm not totally sure if bumping it like that is a good idea, but the fact that it only gets 3/4 BAB always seemed dumb to me. This way, it doesn't need to PrC into Illithid Slayer or something to get near-full BAB, and that's something most psychic warriors do anyway.

Psyren
2011-01-10, 09:31 PM
It wouldn't break the game, but I don't see it as necessary either. They're plenty strong enough as it is.

A Psywar's true niche is natural attacks (Claws, Bite, Metamorphosis etc) and those don't benefit from BAB at all; this is why they can easily do without it.

poignant123
2011-01-11, 06:00 AM
That would make the Psychic Warrior a Fighter with powers since that would mean they get everything the Fighter gets as well as it's psionic abilites.

Of course, nothing overpowered, it's just that it completely overshadows a class (an underpowered one but still overshadowed).

HunterOfJello
2011-01-11, 06:06 AM
That would make the Psychic Warrior a Fighter with powers since that would mean they get everything the Fighter gets as well as it's psionic abilites.

Of course, nothing overpowered, it's just that it completely overshadows a class (an underpowered one but still overshadowed).

The fighter still has a higher hit die and gets feats faster than than a Psychic Warrior.

Eldan
2011-01-11, 06:11 AM
And it already overshadows the fighter anyway.

blueblade
2011-01-11, 06:14 AM
It wouldn't break the game, but I don't see it as necessary either. They're plenty strong enough as it is.

A Psywar's true niche is natural attacks (Claws, Bite, Metamorphosis etc) and those don't benefit from BAB at all; this is why they can easily do without it.

Clarification please? Do you mean he benefits from the bonus as normal, but his true source of additional attacks is natural weapons, not iterative attacks?

Ernir
2011-01-11, 06:35 AM
You could make the change without unbalancing much in the grand scheme of things... I don't, however, think it is really needed. Would make it easier to qualify for a lot of "requires BAB of +x" feats, though.

If you want to make PsyWars easier to use, I'd suggest slightly increasing their PP reserve, instead.


Clarification please? Do you mean he benefits from the bonus as normal, but his true source of additional attacks is natural weapons, not iterative attacks?

Yes, that's what he means.

Psyren
2011-01-11, 08:40 AM
The fighter still has a higher hit die and gets feats faster than than a Psychic Warrior.

Higher hit die is meaningless. At high levels, most of your HP come from Con; not only that, but Psywars get Vigor and Share Pain pretty much throughout their career. They are far more durable than fighters even with d8.

There was a challenge on BG for a level 6 Psywar vs. a level 6 fighter - I suggest looking it up to see just what the class is capable of even at low levels.


Clarification please? Do you mean he benefits from the bonus as normal, but his true source of additional attacks is natural weapons, not iterative attacks?

Yes; Psywars are second only to Totemists in terms of natural attack focus.

stainboy
2011-01-11, 10:34 AM
The Offensive Precognition power effectively gives psychic warriors full BAB at high levels. It's a really awkward way of improving their attack bonus though. It's very optimization sensitive: you want to take Offensive Precognition at level 3, then never use it until level 7 when you can manifest it as a swift action. You also have to know how the power works, that the class design assumes you take Offensive Precognition (I think it does, at least), and ignore more interesting powers to get it.

I'd say give them full BAB, take Offensive Precognition off their power list, and if that makes psychic warriors too much better than fighters, fix fighters.

Psyren
2011-01-11, 10:46 AM
Offensive Precognition is just an insight bonus to attack rolls. It doesn't give them more attacks.

The only magical way to increase your BAB that I know of is Divine Power; there is as yet no psionic equivalent.

stainboy
2011-01-11, 11:00 AM
Yeah, that's true. I just think trading Offensive Precognition for full BAB is a small enough buff to be worth making the class design cleaner and more fun to play at low levels.

I guess my most important point is that if you want to give psychic warriors full BAB, don't let them take Offensive Precognition.

Person_Man
2011-01-11, 11:01 AM
In addition to the superior To-Hit and efficient use of Power Attack, another big benefit of full BAB that speeds up access to various important Prestige Classes and combo Feats. In particular:

Power Attack at level 1 instead of level 2.
Weapon Finesse at level 1 instead of level 2, for the Dex/Wis AoO Psychic Warrior.
Quick Draw at level 1 instead of level 2, for thrown weapon builds.
Goad at level 1 instead of level 2, useful if you're a interested in defense over offense (and very useful when combined with Hustle, which he gets at level 4).
Exotic Weapon proficiency at level 1 instead of level 2. Many uses.
Winged Warrior (Races of Destiny) at level 4 instead of level 6. It lets anyone with wings create concealment/total concealment as a Move action. (again, very useful with Hustle).
The vast majority of melee oriented PrC require BAB +5.
Shock Trooper at level 6 instead of level 8. He also has Psionic Lion's Pounce and 4+ attacks at this level, so expect damage in the 100+ per round range at this level.
Improved Two Weapon Fighting at level 6 instead of level 8 and greater Two Weapon Fighting at level 11 instead of level 15. Useful for certain builds.
Robilar's Gambit at level 12 instead of level 16.


So nothing game breaking. It just makes the Psychic Warrior noticeably stronger at every level, especially around ECL 1-6.



The only magical way to increase your BAB that I know of is Divine Power; there is as yet no psionic equivalent.

Skillful Weapon magic weapon enhancement (Complete Arcane) grants proficiency and 3/4 BAB with the weapon it is enchanted on. So, free Exotic Weapon Proficiency, and a +1 to 5 BAB bump for 10/20 BAB builds. Useful for Incarnates, Kensai, and Gish.

stainboy
2011-01-11, 11:14 AM
You could also implement it as a class feature:

At level 1, a psychic warrior gains a +1 insight bonus to attack rolls while her power point reserve is 1 or more.
At level 5, +2 while her power point reserve is 5 or more.
At level 9, +3 while her power point reserve is 9 or more.
At level 13, +4 while her power point reserve is 13 or more.
At level 17, +5 while her power point reserve is 17 or more.

It's still a buff, and if you don't want to buff psychic warriors at all you obviously shouldn't do it, but this way you effectively build Offensive Precognition into the class without granting all the other advantages of full BAB.

Psyren
2011-01-11, 11:30 AM
In addition to the superior To-Hit and efficient use of Power Attack, another big benefit of full BAB that speeds up access to various important Prestige Classes and combo Feats. In particular:

*snip*

So nothing game breaking. It just makes the Psychic Warrior noticeably stronger at every level, especially around ECL 1-6.

Don't forget psionic feats - some of those have BAB requirements too.
For example:


Aligned Attack at 6 instead of 8
Deep Impact/Fell Shot/Greater Psionic Shot etc. at 5 instead of 7
Ghost Attack/Return Shot at 3 instead of 4
Wounding attack at 8 instead of 11

etc.

The Pathfinder Psywar, while still being 3/4 BAB, can actually gain access to these feats early; he can treat himself as having full BAB for the purpose of psionic feat qualification. However, some of the feats were nerfed in Pathfinder, as my guide will elaborate on in time.

Emmerask
2011-01-11, 11:34 AM
Would it be a reasonable houserule to give the Psychic Warrior full BAB? It's already a decent class, so I'm not totally sure if bumping it like that is a good idea, but the fact that it only gets 3/4 BAB always seemed dumb to me. This way, it doesn't need to PrC into Illithid Slayer or something to get near-full BAB, and that's something most psychic warriors do anyway.

Except if you play a tier 1 or 2 only campaign psychic warriors are quite fine(if you are especially good with them you can hold your own even in such campaigns).
I see no good reason to give them full bab to be honest.

Lateral
2011-01-11, 02:49 PM
Yeah, I realize that the PsyWar is already at a decent power level and doesn't need the boost, but it having the same BAB as a Wilder just doesn't fit with my perception of the class. I don't really care if it makes the Fighter useless; in a game where I'd apply this, the rest of the party would be made up of tier 1s, 2s, and 3s- maybe a Beguiler, a Crusader, a Sorcerer, and the Psychic Warrior.

Psyren
2011-01-11, 02:57 PM
Yeah, I realize that the PsyWar is already at a decent power level and doesn't need the boost, but it having the same BAB as a Wilder just doesn't fit with my perception of the class. I don't really care if it makes the Fighter useless; in a game where I'd apply this, the rest of the party would be made up of tier 1s, 2s, and 3s- maybe a Beguiler, a Crusader, a Sorcerer, and the Psychic Warrior.

Personally, I'd rather build the Wilder up - make it more gish-focused, like a Battle Sorcerer - than the Psywar.

Pathfinder took a step in the right direction along these lines, but only a step.

Lateral
2011-01-11, 03:02 PM
Well, yeah, but now you're stepping on the Psychic Warrior's toes. I'd rather take Wilder in a different direction. Plus, I'm not trying to make any big fixes. I'm just wondering if psychic warrior plus full BAB still equals reasonable power level.

Keld Denar
2011-01-11, 03:08 PM
Also, Rapid Strike has a BAB prereq of +10, so a PsyWar with full BAB could take it at 12, while one without it couldn't take it till 15, and Improved Rapid Strike requires +15 BAB, which a normal PsyWar couldn't take pre-epic.

Psyren
2011-01-11, 03:59 PM
Well, yeah, but now you're stepping on the Psychic Warrior's toes.

I disagree; a Battle Sorcerer can do lots of things a Duskblade can't, but nobody ever says "Always take Battle Sorcerer, never take Duskblade." I'm seeing the same kind of interaction here between a Wilder and a Psywar.

Granted, a Duskblade does have full BAB - so perhaps I'm just proving your point :smalltongue: (However, a Psywar is still stronger than a Duskblade out of the box; no ASF, better proficiencies, feats a more mutable spell list...) those advantages could make up for 3/4 BAB.

Lateral
2011-01-11, 05:10 PM
Well, actually, the Ardent already does a similar thing. It has 9th level spells and way more PP, but trades bonus feats, proficiencies, and hit dice for it. The HD doesn't really matter much, so it's really just the bonus feats and proficiencies. Proficiencies and bonus feats DO NOT EQUAL 9th level spells, so Ardents are pretty clearly better than Psychic Warriors as things stand.

Psyren
2011-01-11, 05:14 PM
Well, actually, the Ardent already does a similar thing. It has 9th level spells and way more PP, but trades bonus feats, proficiencies, and hit dice for it. The HD doesn't really matter much, so it's really just the bonus feats and proficiencies. Proficiencies and bonus feats DO NOT EQUAL 9th level spells, so Ardents are pretty clearly better than Psychic Warriors as things stand.

True, but Ardents are T2. If that's the power level of your game, by all means boost Psywars; but most games consider T2 to be on the high-end of power, not the baseline.

Gnaeus
2011-01-11, 05:19 PM
What if you split the difference? Something like "A Psychic Warrior qualifies for feats and PRCs as if he had full BAB, but determines To-Hit and Iteratives as if he had 3/4 BAB".

Lateral
2011-01-11, 05:21 PM
No, I know that. That doesn't mean they're stepping on the Psychic Warrior's toes any less. I'm not saying that the fact that a tier 3 class is weaker than a tier 2 is bad in any way, but Psychic Warriors are reasonably low in the tier 3 food chain (below Warblades and Crusaders, but above Swordsages IIRC). I'd just like to push them up a bit in a game where the rest of the party are between low tier 2 and high tier 3.

@Gnaeus: That's not what I want full BAB for, though. The iteratives and to-hit are the whole point.

Emmerask
2011-01-11, 05:24 PM
Hm I think giving them more pp would be a better idea in that case.
Or give them the Soulbound Weapon acf for free :smallsmile:

Greenish
2011-01-11, 05:27 PM
but Psychic Warriors are reasonably low in the tier 3 food chain (below Warblades and Crusaders, but above Swordsages IIRC).Though not as easy to build well as martial adepts, psywarrs are, if anything, stronger than the ToB classes. :smallamused:

But since you just want validation: no, giving psywarrs full BAB won't wreck and tear apart your game, nor cause you to be hit by bolts of lightning in a divine retribution, and frenzied masses are unlikely to tear you apart for your sacrilege.

Psyren
2011-01-11, 05:30 PM
I'm not saying that the fact that a tier 3 class is weaker than a tier 2 is bad in any way, but Psychic Warriors are reasonably low in the tier 3 food chain (below Warblades and Crusaders, but above Swordsages IIRC).

Where on earth did you get that? A Psywar can mop the floor with anything in ToB, using only the SRD. :smallconfused:

Emmerask
2011-01-11, 05:32 PM
One that is build well yes, a badly build one will lose even against a badly build warblade at least that is my observation from gameplay


frenzied masses are unlikely to tear you apart for your sacrilege.

*Puts away his pitchfork* Awww man :smallsigh:

Lateral
2011-01-11, 05:41 PM
Though not as easy to build well as martial adepts, psywarrs are, if anything, stronger than the ToB classes.

Where on earth did you get that? A Psywar can mop the floor with anything in ToB, using only the SRD. :smallconfused:
Really? I was under the impression that the general consensus was that Psychic Warriors were slightly weaker. Of the ToB classes, I've only ever used the Warblade, and only just recently, so I guess I don't really have much of a grasp of the ToB classes' PL.



But since you just want validation: no, giving psywarrs full BAB won't wreck and tear apart your game, nor cause you to be hit by bolts of lightning in a divine retribution, and frenzied masses are unlikely to tear you apart for your sacrilege.

Oh, good. I was worried for a second there. :smallamused:

Keld Denar
2011-01-11, 07:16 PM
One word.

Metamorphosis

That is all.

Psyren
2011-01-11, 07:50 PM
One word.

Metamorphosis

That is all.

Combine that with:

a) Action abuse
b) Supreme mobility
c) Natural Attack synergy
d) Size control
e) Can survive (and fight) completely naked, without gear, provisions, or external healing.

And on top of all that, you get a pet rock with whom you can share (a) through (d), double your feats through borrowing, communicate mentally and otherwise be the perfect flanking buddy. Past a certain level, if you have the wrong powers and feats for a given situation, you can change them. And you can create more backup if you need to, or create a mount out of ectoplasm, or pull new weapons from across space and time and then poison them etc.

I'm not knocking ToB classes at all; but bluntly, no Warblade can do all of that.

Lateral
2011-01-11, 08:45 PM
Fair enough.

Don't get me wrong, Psychic Warrior is one of my favorite classes.

AslanCross
2011-01-11, 09:20 PM
You might want to take a look at the Psychic Warrior (Beta) (http://dreamscarredpress.com/dragonfly/ForumsPro/download/id=43.html) from Pathfinder. Unfortunately I don't have Psionics Unleashed, so I don't know if this is how its final form looks like.

Psyren
2011-01-11, 09:30 PM
You might want to take a look at the Psychic Warrior (Beta) (http://dreamscarredpress.com/dragonfly/ForumsPro/download/id=43.html) from Pathfinder. Unfortunately I don't have Psionics Unleashed, so I don't know if this is how its final form looks like.

Then you should probably click the link in my signature, as I analyzed the final Psywar in detail :smallsmile:

EDIT: That beta is actually pretty close to the final version.

AslanCross
2011-01-11, 09:32 PM
Actually, your thread has caused me to want to spend money on Pathfinder books @[email protected] I just haven't read all of it yet.

Psyren
2011-01-11, 09:36 PM
That's fine, since I haven't written all of it yet either :smallbiggrin:
(I'm working on the Soulknife review now.)