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View Full Version : How much LA is large size worth?



WarKitty
2011-01-11, 03:10 PM
I'm looking to build a melee character (well, probably a buffing gish), with a focus on tripping and grappling. It would be nice to be able to start out with large size. Is it worth it to eat some LA to get large size, and if so how much?

Zuljita
2011-01-11, 03:13 PM
the issue i had when i was considering this same question was that every race i could find at larger than medium (or even including powerful build) stops being a humanoid, and instead becomes a monstrous humanoid or the like. This means they are no longer eligible for enlarge person, meaning you could skip the LA and just buy an item for that... or get potions, or a friendly wizard etc...

Gnaeus
2011-01-11, 03:15 PM
I'm looking to build a melee character (well, probably a buffing gish), with a focus on tripping and grappling. It would be nice to be able to start out with large size. Is it worth it to eat some LA to get large size, and if so how much?

I think the cheapest most people will allow is something like a half-ogre at +2. Goliath at +1 has powerful build, which helps your trip checks and grapples but not your reach, which may be worth it.

LA is very worth it in games where buyoff is allowed. Otherwise, it makes you fragile at low levels because you have less hit dice. Even then, it may be worth it, if your teammates aren't likely to buff you with enlarge person regularly.

Pink
2011-01-11, 03:16 PM
In fairness it should be worth 500 XP (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/permanency.htm) or 3040 gp (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/goodsAndServices.htm#spellcastingAndServices)


Permanency enlarge person: 500 XP

To get a caster to cast It on you:
level 5 spell: 9x 50 = 450 gp
level 1 spell: 9x 10 = 90 gp
500 XP x 5 = 2500 gp
450 + 90 + 2500 = 3040 gp

Gnaeus
2011-01-11, 03:17 PM
In fairness it should be worth 500 XP (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/permanency.htm) or 3040 gp (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/goodsAndServices.htm#spellcastingAndServices)


Permanency enlarge person: 500 XP

To get a caster to cast It on you:
level 5 spell: 9x 50 = 450 gp
level 1 spell: 9x 10 = 90 gp
500 XP x 5 = 2500 gp
450 + 90 + 2500 = 3040 gp

It is worth more than that. You probably don't want it going away the first time someone casts a dispel magic.

Greenish
2011-01-11, 03:18 PM
Disregarding Dragon Magazine stuff, Powerful Build seems to be +1 LA, while actual Large size is categorically +2 LA and up (except where it comes with RHD).

Assuming other stats are good, and you can leverage the size to your benefit, +2 LA may be worth it if you can buy it out, but you'd probably be better off not eating the LA.

Pink
2011-01-11, 03:21 PM
It is worth more than that. You probably don't want it going away the first time someone casts a dispel magic.

Just giving a cheaper option is all.

Otherwise I believe Half-ogre is the general standby.

Starbuck_II
2011-01-11, 03:25 PM
I'm looking to build a melee character (well, probably a buffing gish), with a focus on tripping and grappling. It would be nice to be able to start out with large size. Is it worth it to eat some LA to get large size, and if so how much?

Just Large size or Stat bonuses too?
1/2 Ogre and 1/2 Minataur give large size and +8 Str (some Con too) because they reference the MM changing size rules where size affects Str.
Guess how much all that is worth? 1 LA.

So just large size is not worth LA by itself (only when combined with other bonuses).

A Human who gave up bonus feat for Large size (without Stat adjustment) would be worth no more LA.

Person_Man
2011-01-11, 03:26 PM
If you just want the +4 to opposed checks, then it's worth 1 feat. Jotobrund (Races of Faerun).

If you want the +4 to opposed checks, a bonus to Strength, the ability to use weapons 1 category larger, and the ability to qualify for the highly effective Knockback feat (Races of Stone) then it's worth +1 LA. Half-Giant (Expanded Psionics Handbook) or Goliath (Races of Stone).

If you want the +4 to opposed checks, a bonus to Strength, the ability to use weapons 1 category larger, and the ability to qualify for the highly effective Knockback feat, and improved space and reach, then it's worth +2 LA. Half-Ogre (Races of Destiny).

This thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7081777) gives you all of the WotC book options.

WarKitty
2011-01-11, 03:26 PM
Thanks. I'm actually trying to pull off an old weretiger character without making it totally ineffective. I'm rather fond of the girl as she was my first character, but her original stats were 3.5 weretiger with one level of monk. She was statted as a leopard originally, debating whether to go with tiger instead for the size. Has the advantage that I would still be a humanoid, and was planning on gaining levels in cleric or something to self-buff.

Person_Man
2011-01-11, 03:40 PM
Thanks. I'm actually trying to pull off an old weretiger character without making it totally ineffective. I'm rather fond of the girl as she was my first character, but her original stats were 3.5 weretiger with one level of monk. She was statted as a leopard originally, debating whether to go with tiger instead for the size. Has the advantage that I would still be a humanoid, and was planning on gaining levels in cleric or something to self-buff.

Well if it's just size and being a big kitty that you're interested in, then core Druid will serve you very well. There's also the Divine Minion (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mb/20050209a) template. The fluff is very different, but the crunch is essentially the ability to turn into 1 animal in exchange for being a servant of an Egyptian god, and +1 LA if you choose specific forms. You could also play a Shifter Weretouched Master. Or you could just talk to your DM about modifying the template - it's the animal hit dice that really kill you, not the +2 LA.

WarKitty
2011-01-11, 03:52 PM
Well if it's just size and being a big kitty that you're interested in, then core Druid will serve you very well. There's also the Divine Minion (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mb/20050209a) template. The fluff is very different, but the crunch is essentially the ability to turn into 1 animal in exchange for being a servant of an Egyptian god, and +1 LA if you choose specific forms. You could also play a Shifter Weretouched Master. Or you could just talk to your DM about modifying the template - it's the animal hit dice that really kill you, not the +2 LA.

The LA I could probably eat, especially if I could lose the HD. Is the dire wolf class a decent alternative? Should be fairly easy to modify, and gets me large size and some decent bonuses in 4 levels.

The original character was a monk...and probably was less effective than even a straight monk would have been.

Divine minion might work. The character is and probably will always be a monk in my head, even if the build doesn't involve monk levels.

Edit: Eh, you're right, druid works fine. Especially with pathfinder shamans.

Coidzor
2011-01-11, 04:46 PM
By itself, with no stat modifications or additional racial features? LA+1. But you can't get it like that without homebrewing.

WarKitty
2011-01-11, 04:58 PM
It's looking like a PF Lion shaman is the way to go. Wildshape at +2 level when taking feline forms, plus druid casting for buffs. Pick up Nature's Warrior, Warshaper, and maybe a level of Fist of the Forest for the armor since I don't feel like wearing much of it. Now I just need to get enlarge person on my list...

hamishspence
2011-01-11, 05:20 PM
By itself, with no stat modifications or additional racial features? LA+1. But you can't get it like that without homebrewing.

Or use that Pathfinder template for creatures 1 size larger than normal- I believe that's listed as LA+1.

Person_Man
2011-01-11, 05:24 PM
Now I just need to get enlarge person on my list...

Why? Druid 8 can Wildshape into a Dire Lion, which is a Large Lion. Did they change it in Pathfinder?

If they did, then I suggest an investment in the Arcane Schooling feat: You’re treated as having one level of one arcane class for the purpose of activating spell trigger items. Player’s Guide to Faerun pg 33. Take it and buy a customized wand (with an increased caster level) of Enlarge Person or Alter Self, and you're set.

hamishspence
2011-01-11, 05:25 PM
The template was the Giant Creature simple template:

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/simple-template-giant-cr-1

Also, Pathfinder dire lions:

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/animals/cat/dire-lion

are Large.

Starbuck_II
2011-01-11, 05:37 PM
Or use that Pathfinder template for creatures 1 size larger than normal- I believe that's listed as LA+1.

Bah, it gives more than Size: it gives Stat bonuses and NA bonuses.
It gives same benefits as 1/2 Minotaur template did in 3.5: +8 Str, -2 Dex, +4 Con.

LOTRfan
2011-01-11, 05:39 PM
According to Savage Species, its not size that gives LA. Its the extra 5 ft. reach. So, theoretically, there could be a large, LA +0 quadruped.

Coidzor
2011-01-11, 05:42 PM
The template was the Giant Creature simple template:

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/simple-template-giant-cr-1

What the heck are the "rebuild rules?"

hamishspence
2011-01-11, 05:43 PM
Bah, it gives more than Size: it gives Stat bonuses and NA bonuses.
It gives same benefits as 1/2 Minotaur template did in 3.5: +8 Str, -2 Dex, +4 Con.

The Rebuild rules:


Rebuild Rules: Size increase by one category; AC increase natural armor by +3; Attacks increase dice rolled by 1 step; Ability Scores +4 size bonus to Str and Con, –2 Dex.

seem to say it should be +4 Str rather than +8: but the table says +8.


What the heck are the "rebuild rules?"

My guess is they're intended for restatting the monster, rather than simply a quick adjustment when the DM suddenly wants to downsize or upsize one.

WarKitty
2011-01-11, 05:52 PM
Why? Druid 8 can Wildshape into a Dire Lion, which is a Large Lion. Did they change it in Pathfinder?

If they did, then I suggest an investment in the Arcane Schooling feat: You’re treated as having one level of one arcane class for the purpose of activating spell trigger items. Player’s Guide to Faerun pg 33. Take it and buy a customized wand (with an increased caster level) of Enlarge Person or Alter Self, and you're set.

I have Dire Tiger, which is large. I'm just thinking of ways to get to size Huge for the end game.

Balain
2011-01-11, 05:59 PM
Just a thought about large size. In combat there are more positions to be flanked from, as well instead of 9 enemies being able to be adjacent to you you can have 12 adjacent enemies.

Endarire
2011-01-11, 08:23 PM
Large size is feels on the low end of 1 LA. Sure, you get combat bonuses, but you're a freak and may have a hard time fitting in 'normal' (Medium) sized areas.

LA1 feels right for a Large creature with competent melee stats. Half-Minotaur from "Dragon" feels like a solid LA2 benchmark.

AtomicKitKat
2011-01-11, 09:56 PM
I'd rule it this way. If you have 2 Racial HD, you probably shouldn't eat the Level Adjustment for being Large. If you had 2RHD and the size-based stat bonuses, eat +1LA. Likewise if you had no size-based stat bonuses and no RHD. Sounds good?

Dr.Epic
2011-01-11, 10:03 PM
Goliaths are basically large in many aspects (I think they do get the bonus for grapple checks (someone tell me if I'm wrong)) and they only get a LA of 1. It might not be a bad idea.

WarKitty
2011-01-11, 10:25 PM
I'd rule it this way. If you have 2 Racial HD, you probably shouldn't eat the Level Adjustment for being Large. If you had 2RHD and the size-based stat bonuses, eat +1LA. Likewise if you had no size-based stat bonuses and no RHD. Sounds good?

RHD are worse than LA though.

Coidzor
2011-01-11, 10:29 PM
RHD are worse than LA though.

Depending upon one's build priorities and the relative amount. 7 RHD and +1 or +2 LA is less bad than 7 LA and 2 RHD or even no RHD, especially if said RHD come with some worthwhile racial abilities and one doesn't want to be a caster.

And where they're both high, the race just doesn't see play that often.

V: Type of RHD as well, yes.

Psyren
2011-01-11, 11:17 PM
RHD are worse than LA though.

Outsiders beg to differ; d8, Full BAB, all good saves, MWP, 8+int skills.

WarKitty
2011-01-11, 11:26 PM
Depending upon one's build priorities and the relative amount. 7 RHD and +1 or +2 LA is less bad than 7 LA and 2 RHD or even no RHD, especially if said RHD come with some worthwhile racial abilities and one doesn't want to be a caster.

And where they're both high, the race just doesn't see play that often.

V: Type of RHD as well, yes.


Outsiders beg to differ; d8, Full BAB, all good saves, MWP, 8+int skills.

True. Still, RHD for most large creatures doesn't give anything to make it better than class levels. And I was assuming some form of LA buyoff, at least the partial version PF suggests.

Pink
2011-01-12, 02:52 AM
True. Still, RHD for most large creatures doesn't give anything to make it better than class levels. And I was assuming some form of LA buyoff, at least the partial version PF suggests.

I'm kinda curious where you're getting the PF LA info from. When I checked, in part to see how they could balance the player stats from races like the Aasimar with the lesser PHB races without a LA, I didn't get much more substantial then "It's the DM's call." from the books. Is there a section I missed?

WarKitty
2011-01-12, 08:23 AM
I'm kinda curious where you're getting the PF LA info from. When I checked, in part to see how they could balance the player stats from races like the Aasimar with the lesser PHB races without a LA, I didn't get much more substantial then "It's the DM's call." from the books. Is there a section I missed?

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/monsters-as-pcs

Gnaritas
2011-01-12, 08:43 AM
Just Large size or Stat bonuses too?
1/2 Ogre and 1/2 Minataur give large size and +8 Str (some Con too) because they reference the MM changing size rules where size affects Str.
Guess how much all that is worth? 1 LA.

So just large size is not worth LA by itself (only when combined with other bonuses).

A Human who gave up bonus feat for Large size (without Stat adjustment) would be worth no more LA.

If you take those as a reference, yes.
But since these templates are not really a good reference. They are still extremely good at LA 2 and maybe even decent at LA 3.

Gnaeus
2011-01-12, 09:04 AM
Just Large size or Stat bonuses too?
1/2 Ogre and 1/2 Minataur give large size and +8 Str (some Con too) because they reference the MM changing size rules where size affects Str.
Guess how much all that is worth? 1 LA.

1/2 ogre was reprinted in Races of Destiny. It is now 2 LA. 1/2 minotaur is widely regarded as too strong for its LA. Take it if you are in a high optimization game and your DM lets you, but good luck getting it through in most games.

Starbuck_II
2011-01-12, 10:09 AM
1/2 ogre was reprinted in Races of Destiny. It is now 2 LA. 1/2 minotaur is widely regarded as too strong for its LA. Take it if you are in a high optimization game and your DM lets you, but good luck getting it through in most games.

No, 1/2 Ogre race was from Savage Species not Dragon. Dragon had the template.
Races of Destiny reprinted the Savage species race not the template.

Gnaeus
2011-01-12, 10:18 AM
No, 1/2 Ogre race was from Savage Species not Dragon. Dragon had the template.
Races of Destiny reprinted the Savage species race not the template.

I didn't say where it was from originally.

Dragon is excluded from a lot of games just for being Dragon, and from more when it is overpowered, as the +1LA half ogre is. The important part of the statement is unchanged. 3.5 races that grant large size are about +2 (or more) LA. 3.5 races with powerful build are +1. You can find templates in dragon that break that, but they are generally overpowered and unlikely to fly in most games.

Here is a good way to check. Barbarian (Pounce, rage, d12 hp) or Warblade (Stance, strikes doing +2d6 avg +7 damage, d12 hp) are sitting around the top of the melee power curve at levels 1-4. If the template (giving, say, +8 strength + large size and other benefits for 1LA) is CLEARLY BETTER than taking a level in barbarian or Warblade, it is probably too strong for play at those levels. If you start at level 12, and your casters are throwing around 6th level spells, then no amount of strength bonus is overpowered, but that is better dealt with with LA buyoff, and your strength bonus is probably going to be determined by what you are Polymorphed into anyway.

Achernar
2011-01-12, 11:13 AM
I think the cheapest most people will allow is something like a half-ogre at +2. Goliath at +1 has powerful build, which helps your trip checks and grapples but not your reach, which may be worth it.

LA is very worth it in games where buyoff is allowed. Otherwise, it makes you fragile at low levels because you have less hit dice. Even then, it may be worth it, if your teammates aren't likely to buff you with enlarge person regularly.

I don't know if this has been mentioned yet, but Half-Ogre is a Large Giant, not a Humanoid. I don't know about half-ogrish template...

But Giant means that any humanoid-targeted spells don't work on you. Worth noting.

AtomicKitKat
2011-01-12, 12:17 PM
Just off-hand, I would say your run-of-the-mill DM is more likely to okay giving you some "free" HD, as opposed to LA-buyoff(which is needlessly complicated. I'd say just take off 1LA every 3 levels since you last acquired the template, and lose the worse-than-THAC0-math).

In my own set of house-rules(which I should be publishing on these boards any year now...), RHD will actually be useful(and would reduce, if not outright negate the clunkiness of some ridiculously high LAs).

Good call on not having the Humanoid subtype.

Keld Denar
2011-01-12, 12:28 PM
Oh come one...THAC0 math wasn't that hard...Just take your THAC0, subtract your foe's AC, and thats the number you have to roll above, after adding your Str bonuses, weapon magic bonus, and proficiency bonuses...

Thats not NEARLY has hard as...say...figuring out which schools go to which BCS bowl games and what those respective bowl games mean in terms of national rankings...

Keinnicht
2011-01-12, 04:25 PM
I really don't think Large size is worth any more than +1. I mean, here's what you get:

+2 str, -2 dex
+4 to grapple
10 foot reach
-1 penalty to AC
-1 penalty to attack rolls
-Larger weapons.

+2 seems excessive for that.

NeoVid
2011-01-12, 04:33 PM
The devs said that Large size by itself does not result in level adjustment, it's just that most creatures that have large size also have increased reach, which does result in LA.

Gnaeus
2011-01-12, 04:34 PM
I really don't think Large size is worth any more than +1. I mean, here's what you get:

+2 str, -2 dex
+4 to grapple
10 foot reach
-1 penalty to AC
-1 penalty to attack rolls
-Larger weapons.

+2 seems excessive for that.

10 foot reach is pretty huge, especially when you double it by using a reach weapon. Being able to smack people on the other side of the room, then smack them again if they try to shoot you, cast a spell at you or move towards you is kind of amazing. The fact that you smack them for about 1/3rd more damage is just a bonus, as is the fact that you can also trip them (you forgot +4 to trip), and smack them again if they dare to get up.

Then there are all the things that can't trample or swallow you, or have a harder time tripping/grappling you, etc.

Starbuck_II
2011-01-12, 05:30 PM
I really don't think Large size is worth any more than +1. I mean, here's what you get:

+2 str, -2 dex
+4 to grapple
10 foot reach
-1 penalty to AC
-1 penalty to attack rolls
-Larger weapons.

+2 seems excessive for that.

Large size doesn't give Str bonus/Dex penalty, Enlarge person does.
This is what Large size does by itself:
+4 to grapple
10 foot reach
-1 penalty to AC
-1 penalty to attack rolls
-Larger weapons.

Gnaeus
2011-01-12, 05:40 PM
Large size doesn't give Str bonus/Dex penalty, Enlarge person does.
This is what Large size does by itself:
+4 to grapple
10 foot reach
-1 penalty to AC
-1 penalty to attack rolls
-Larger weapons.

& trip. & other benefits vs attacks.

Pink
2011-01-12, 06:14 PM
Aren't we talking Pathfinder Large size?

Shouldn't it be +1 CMB and +1 CMD instead of +4 grapple, trip, etc?

Runeclaw
2011-01-12, 07:36 PM
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/monsters-as-pcs

It's really not correct to refer to LA in Pathfinder, though. Instead of LA or RHD, Pathfinder uses CR.

Your "ECL" (which term it also doesn't use) equals the CR of your base "monster" plus your character levels, although the CR is effectively discounted (thus giving you bonus levels) over time until it reaches half its original value.

Its a fairly unsatisfactory replacement for what was always a pretty unsatisfactory system.

There are a couple of races, such as Drow Nobles, that as far as I can tell give you nice advantages without any CR penalty.

FMArthur
2011-01-12, 08:05 PM
'Two feats' was what 10ft base reach was valued at in two different books:

Aberration Blood (LoM)
Inhuman Reach

or

Willing Deformity (HoH)
Deformity [Tall]


It takes two feats to (essentially) turn a Goliath or Half-Giant into Large-for-all-purposes. Given that two Fighter levels would free up enough feats for this, I'd only pay ONE additional level adjustment for it and some other small bonuses, totalling LA +2 on either of them. Otherwise I'd just take the Fighter levels.

Necroticplague
2011-01-12, 09:36 PM
I'm going to go with being large being LA+0, but the reach that comes with it being +1. Being big depends on your character build, just as being small does. Since halflings are small (and even have a few other benefits) and are an LA +0 race, than being big wouldn't be worth LA, but according to savage species, reach is.

PlzBreakMyCmpAn
2011-01-13, 01:42 AM
RAW says its actually worth more LA to be a large humanoid (pre templates) than another type. Therefore similar sizes have different LA values depending on the type. The OP needs to specify for which type he wants the LA of large size. 3.5 of course, I have no interest in PF