daggerspell mage qualifying question

[SylvanPrincess]

so, im curious about something, the daggerspell mage has "arcane caster level 5th". logic dictates that that means one wouldnt be able to take DSM until 7th level (1 level of rogue). is it possible to qualify for daggerspell mage using the practiced spellcaster feat to prestige at level 6 instead(my caster level would equal my CL with the feat)? and would it even be worth it?

[Gorgondantess]

so, im curious about something, the daggerspell mage has "arcane caster level 5th". logic dictates that that means one wouldnt be able to take DSM until 7th level (1 level of rogue). is it possible to qualify for daggerspell mage using the practiced spellcaster feat to prestige at level 6 instead(my caster level would equal my CL with the feat)? and would it even be worth it?

Yeah, that would be an effective shortcut. Caster Class X 4/Rogue 1 with practiced spellcaster would do the trick on qualifying. And, yeah, it'd definitely be worth it- you want to get your PrC levels in as early as possible.

[Siosilvar]

I'd say you could do it, but I'm sure someone with actual RAW will be around to prove or disprove me shortly.

Is it worth it? Probably not. I've looked at Daggerspell Mage before and it doesn't give very much (aside from the whole thrown touch spell thing, which comes too late to be worthwhile). It's okay as a rogue/wizard mix goes, I suppose, but there are better PrCs for that.

[Psyren]

so, im curious about something, the daggerspell mage has "arcane caster level 5th". logic dictates that that means one wouldnt be able to take DSM until 7th level (1 level of rogue). is it possible to qualify for daggerspell mage using the practiced spellcaster feat to prestige at level 6 instead(my caster level would equal my CL with the feat)? and would it even be worth it?

Yes, you can PrC at 6 with Practiced Spellcaster. I'd say its worth it, because Daggerspell Mage loses another CL upon entry, putting you down two, so you'll want Practiced Spellcaster anyway - you might as well use it to get to stabby-casty fun one level earlier.

By the way, THANK YOU for making me look that up! There's an adaptation I missed all this time, allowing Psions to qualify for Daggerspell Mage :smallsmile: So that's another official 9/10 manifesting PrC for them.

[Greenish]

Yes, you can PrC at 6 with Practiced Spellcaster. I'd say its worth it, because Daggerspell Mage loses another CL upon entry, putting you down two, so you'll want Practiced Spellcaster anyway - you might as well use it to get to stabby-casty fun one level earlier.Well, that depends. Sorcerers of course want to leap out as soon as possible, but level 5 grants wizards a bonus feat that can be traded for several tasty ACFs.

[SylvanPrincess]

i like the class and its flavor, and will take unseen seer or arcane trickster down the road to further advance sneak attack and spell casting.

thanks for the responses, very helpful.

the idea i am exploring is spellthief 1/wizard 4/daggerspell mage 10/unseen seer 5(or trickster 5).

we have a 4 class limit if youre human/half elf and a 3 class limit if youre anything else. we dont play with multiclassing exp penalties, a human can take the extra class because they have favored class: any.

my question reguarding if its worth it is because it would be a feat slot... and would basically make my caster level equal my CL. without it my caster level would be 18


Yes, you can PrC at 6 with Practiced Spellcaster. I'd say its worth it, because Daggerspell Mage loses another CL upon entry, putting you down two, so you'll want Practiced Spellcaster anyway - you might as well use it to get to stabby-casty fun one level earlier.

By the way, THANK YOU for making me look that up! There's an adaptation I missed all this time, allowing Psions to qualify for Daggerspell Mage :smallsmile: So that's another official 9/10 manifesting PrC for them.

how would that help? caster level reqs work with ML? and several of the abilities dont seen to jive with psionics

[SylvanPrincess]

darn, i double posted, moved it to previous reply

[Greenish]

What do you want from Daggerspell Mage? Do you really want to TWF daggers in melee? :smallconfused:

[Keld Denar]

Unseen Seer tends to be a higher quality PrC than DSM, and easier to get into. The Advanced Learning feature is REALLY REALLY good if you know where to look, and the CL penalty is easy to fix with Practiced Spellcaster. I'd take more levels of that and skip DSM completely.

But thats me.

[SylvanPrincess]

i like the dsm, i want to be able to fight some and the higher hit die is useful to me. i like the combat oriented abilities it gets- i dont like being a spy type character like the USeer is. i dont care as much about divination spells - ill use a few- and that is what the unseen seer is all about it seems. you all are the masters though, i defer to your collective knowledge - but i like the daggerspell mage :)

can i use a large dagger (for a large creature) and have it still work with the class?

[Psyren]

my question reguarding if its worth it is because it would be a feat slot... and would basically make my caster level equal my CL. without it my caster level would be 18

The golden rule is "Thou shalt not lose caster levels."

Think of it this way - without that feat, you'll need ioun stones or reserve feats just to break even, never mind exceed your character level. And every little bit helps when you're (a) trying to break through SR, (b) trying to resist being dispelled, or (c) getting one extra round out of that critical buff/debuff.


how would that help? caster level reqs work with ML? and several of the abilities dont seen to jive with psionics

Yes; CAdv pg. 32.

It has less benefit for Psions (largely because they can manifest with knives in their hands already) but could be nifty for Psyrogues/Lurks. (For Lurks it is in fact a step up, because they get more skill points, and sneak attack stacks with psionic sneak attack while simultaneously being better.)

[Greenish]

i like the dsm, i want to be able to fight some and the higher hit die is useful to me.You burn two feats to qualify for Daggerspell Mage. You could just spend one feat for Imp. Toughness and get the same benefit. Daggerspell Mage doesn't actually dazzle with it's melee capabilities, either.

i like the combat oriented abilities it gets- i dont like being a spy type character like the USeer is. i dont care as much about divination spells - ill use a few- and that is what the unseen seer is all about it seems.US gains a few Divination spells, but you're thinking way narrowly - Divination is the school that allows you to increase your SA damage, increase the range you can apply it, ignore AC from armour, shields and natural armour, sneak attack things normally immune to it, just get plain bonuses to attack rolls, see through magical concealment and more!

It's not just for "spy stuff", but has great many combat applications. Besides, US doesn't lose caster levels.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

US gains a few Divination spells, but you're thinking way narrowly - Divination is the school that allows you to increase your SA damage, increase the range you can apply it, ignore AC from armour, shields and natural armour, sneak attack things normally immune to it, just get plain bonuses to attack rolls, see through magical concealment and more!

It's not just for "spy stuff", but has great many combat applications. Besides, US doesn't lose caster levels.

Not to mention the fact that on of all of those delicious scry-and-die tactics, sneak attack buffs and other random ranger goodies given to you via Unseen Seer, there's also the lovely 3rd level spell Unluck, which forces rerolls on everything for your enemies, shafting them with the lesser of the two rolls.

[SylvanPrincess]

does sneak attack apply to each strike with 2 weapon fighting?

greenish, i totally see your point now, i see the connection between sneak attack and divination- i just like the flavor better i guess, :shrugs:

just for you, i will look into the seer a little more :)

[Greenish]

does sneak attack apply to each strike with 2 weapon fighting?Yeah, it applies every time the target is flanked or denied dex to AC and you make an attack roll (except, I think, for some volley attacks, I don't remember those rules so well).

[SylvanPrincess]

i dont like how it raises your caster level, but lowers it for everything non div. i think its a huge detriment actually, I want to keep my CL up for everything else. i can still cast divinations as a daggerspell mage...

i do like advanced learning definitely. and guarded mind. but i can get both with a five level dip. i am def more combat oriented as a player, and have never gone full caster 20 in my 'career'. so i think that daggerspell is a good transition character for me :)

thanks for the advice though!

[Greenish]

i dont like how it raises your caster level, but lowers it for everything non div. i think its a huge detriment actually, I want to keep my CL up for everything else.You're taking Practiced Spellcaster anyway, so that negates the penalty, unless you want to go losing more caster levels.


i do like advanced learning definitely. and guarded mind. but i can get both with a five level dip. i am def more combat oriented as a player, and have never gone full caster 20 in my 'career'. so i think that daggerspell is a good transition character for meFive levels is a good stopping point, certainly. IMO, DSM doesn't really make up for the lost casting level, but each to their own.

[SylvanPrincess]

You're taking Practiced Spellcaster anyway, so that negates the penalty, unless you want to go losing more caster levels.
Five levels is a good stopping point, certainly. IMO, DSM doesn't really make up for the lost casting level, but each to their own.

this would be a master spellthief build too

[Keld Denar]

Pretty dang close to what you are building, just swapping the level of rogue with a level of spellthief. That qualifies you for Master Spellthief, which functions similar to Practiced Spellcaster and allows you to drain spell slots from enemy casters. You won't have enough spellthief levels to actually DO anything with the spell energy, but you could still have some fun.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Greenish covered a lot of it, but I think it's worth a little extra on the topic.

As has been stated, Practiced Spellcaster does indeed negate the penalty to all non-divination spells, assuming an entry along the lines of Sneak Attack Class 1/Wizard 4/Unseen Seer X/Fullcasting Y.

Spoilered for length, but I feel it' necessary considering how often I see "Yeah, but divination spell power..."

For entry requirements, both will eat up 5 levels at the low end. The preferred entry generally being Spellthief 1/Wizard 4 (or Sorcerer 4)/"Primary" Prestige Class 5-10, where "primary" is either unseen seer or daggerspell mage in this case. Both will want Practiced Spellcaster to overcome their loses (two in the case of DSM, one-spell granting level for US, but 4 effectively for non-divination). However, DSM also demands Weapon Focus (Dagger) and TWF. TWF is debatable as to whether or not it's a tax, but WF certainly is as the vast majority of spells can overcome the to-hit with no issue. Assuming a Spellthief chassis, both will want Master Spellthief for armor, stealing spells and the like.

For that cost, DSM gives you 10 extra HP over 10 levels, an extra 4 on reflex saves over the same and a slightly larger skill list, but the end same amount of skill points. DSM only gives 3d6 sneak attack compared to US's 4d6, discounting the love that is Hunter's Eye, which will splash between an extra 2d6 dice when you get it and up to silly amounts like 8d6 at 20th level with just Master Spellthief, Practiced Spellcaster, and Unseen Seer levels, but I'm getting ahead of myself.

Daggerspell Mage locks you into TWFing, feat-wise at levels when those could be better spent on things like Cloudy Conjuration and Knowledge Devotion. While TWFing will certainly allow you to apply more damage on a target in a round, it is a round of being in melee combat: extra 10 HP or no, that's not the best idea for you unless you've got multiple immediate actions for things like Abrupt Jaunt, enough miss chance to protect yourself, or other spells. Those are things a DSM gets latter than an US, sadly.

Upon entry to the class, neither one is terribly better than the other, lost caster level aside,but daggercast only really adds whatever damage you could do with a dagger onto a touch spell with all the same risks attached and the Unseen Seer gets +1d6 sneak attack to throw on his spells, which are probably about the same amount, in the end. The lost caster level, though, will stick around forever.

Invocation of the Knife is... well, it's good for throwing orbs of fire at fire elementals, I suppose, but doesn't really stack up to Hunter's Eye and free Silent Spell.

Third and Fourth levels are both kind of dry. DSM gains just 1d6 sneak attack over the two of them while US gains the same and the first of Divination Spellpower. So, at this point, without Practiced Spellcaster, both are equal in terms of caster level, but US still has an extra level of spells on top of the DSM.

At 5th level, the US gains Guarded Mind - a free, permanent 3rd level spell - and another divination spell - probably divine insight for when you must succeed on a skill check or healer's vision for more sneak attack damage. At the same time, the DSM gains doubledagger cast, a permanent 1st level spell and further throws him to the front lines to TWF.

Sixth level for both is a little shy, basically amounting to an extra 1d6 sneak attack for both classes, but the US must sacrifice a slot for his. Same goes for 7th level, but now it's the DSM that throws away the slot.

Eighth level is probably the only one that stacks up in the DSM's favor, as it finally has the option to use its shtick at range while the Unseen Seer gains another advanced learning, but that's still a larger bucket to pick things from on the Unseen Seer's end, to be fair.

Unseen Seer finishes off with more sneak attack and more spell power, meaning that all of his capped divination spells are probably at that point by now. On the other side, the DSM also gains more sneak attack and the ability to quicken spells up to probably about 4-6 times a day while engaging in melee combat. Overall, the Unseen Seer is more fluid in what it can do and there are a lot of amazing spells that happen to eat at swift actions, which does hurt the DSM's capstone.

However, that all being said, if you do want to TWF as an Unseen Seer, there's always Heroics for that.

[Psyren]

Note that, while RAW, not all DMs allow Practiced Spellcaster to negate the Unseen Seer CL reduction. It's not quite as egregious as allowing it for Wild Mage, but it does have cheese potential. So, you may want to clear it with yours first.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Note that, while RAW, not all DMs allow Practiced Spellcaster to negate the Unseen Seer CL reduction. It's not quite as egregious as allowing it for Wild Mage, but it does have cheese potential. So, you may want to clear it with yours first.

I've personally never had a problem with that, as it's basically the same set-up as having both fire vulnerability, fire immunity, and resistance to fire 15. When you can, you apply the immunity first. Someone got a way to punch threw that immunity but not ignore your resistance? Okay, then I take 15 less damage first then slap on the extra 50% from my vulnerability to take less over all.

[SylvanPrincess]

Greenish covered a lot of it, but I think it's worth a little extra on the topic.

As has been stated, Practiced Spellcaster does indeed negate the penalty to all non-divination spells, assuming an entry along the lines of Sneak Attack Class 1/Wizard 4/Unseen Seer X/Fullcasting Y.

Spoilered for length, but I feel it' necessary considering how often I see "Yeah, but divination spell power..."

For entry requirements, both will eat up 5 levels at the low end. The preferred entry generally being Spellthief 1/Wizard 4 (or Sorcerer 4)/"Primary" Prestige Class 5-10, where "primary" is either unseen seer or daggerspell mage in this case. Both will want Practiced Spellcaster to overcome their loses (two in the case of DSM, one-spell granting level for US, but 4 effectively for non-divination). However, DSM also demands Weapon Focus (Dagger) and TWF. TWF is debatable as to whether or not it's a tax, but WF certainly is as the vast majority of spells can overcome the to-hit with no issue. Assuming a Spellthief chassis, both will want Master Spellthief for armor, stealing spells and the like.

For that cost, DSM gives you 10 extra HP over 10 levels, an extra 4 on reflex saves over the same and a slightly larger skill list, but the end same amount of skill points. DSM only gives 3d6 sneak attack compared to US's 4d6, discounting the love that is Hunter's Eye, which will splash between an extra 2d6 dice when you get it and up to silly amounts like 8d6 at 20th level with just Master Spellthief, Practiced Spellcaster, and Unseen Seer levels, but I'm getting ahead of myself.

Daggerspell Mage locks you into TWFing, feat-wise at levels when those could be better spent on things like Cloudy Conjuration and Knowledge Devotion. While TWFing will certainly allow you to apply more damage on a target in a round, it is a round of being in melee combat: extra 10 HP or no, that's not the best idea for you unless you've got multiple immediate actions for things like Abrupt Jaunt, enough miss chance to protect yourself, or other spells. Those are things a DSM gets latter than an US, sadly.

Upon entry to the class, neither one is terribly better than the other, lost caster level aside,but daggercast only really adds whatever damage you could do with a dagger onto a touch spell with all the same risks attached and the Unseen Seer gets +1d6 sneak attack to throw on his spells, which are probably about the same amount, in the end. The lost caster level, though, will stick around forever.

Invocation of the Knife is... well, it's good for throwing orbs of fire at fire elementals, I suppose, but doesn't really stack up to Hunter's Eye and free Silent Spell.

Third and Fourth levels are both kind of dry. DSM gains just 1d6 sneak attack over the two of them while US gains the same and the first of Divination Spellpower. So, at this point, without Practiced Spellcaster, both are equal in terms of caster level, but US still has an extra level of spells on top of the DSM.

At 5th level, the US gains Guarded Mind - a free, permanent 3rd level spell - and another divination spell - probably divine insight for when you must succeed on a skill check or healer's vision for more sneak attack damage. At the same time, the DSM gains doubledagger cast, a permanent 1st level spell and further throws him to the front lines to TWF.

Sixth level for both is a little shy, basically amounting to an extra 1d6 sneak attack for both classes, but the US must sacrifice a slot for his. Same goes for 7th level, but now it's the DSM that throws away the slot.

Eighth level is probably the only one that stacks up in the DSM's favor, as it finally has the option to use its shtick at range while the Unseen Seer gains another advanced learning, but that's still a larger bucket to pick things from on the Unseen Seer's end, to be fair.

Unseen Seer finishes off with more sneak attack and more spell power, meaning that all of his capped divination spells are probably at that point by now. On the other side, the DSM also gains more sneak attack and the ability to quicken spells up to probably about 4-6 times a day while engaging in melee combat. Overall, the Unseen Seer is more fluid in what it can do and there are a lot of amazing spells that happen to eat at swift actions, which does hurt the DSM's capstone.

However, that all being said, if you do want to TWF as an Unseen Seer, there's always Heroics for that.

thanks for the in depth explanation by the way! i see what you mean, but this will be far from an optimized campaign. we have a centaur paladin! lol but yeah, im still considering the merits of what you said

[Greenish]

this would be a master spellthief build tooWell, that'll negate the penalty from Divination Spellpower too, by some rulings.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Well, that'll negate the penalty from Divination Spellpower too, by some rulings.

Well, you stack things in the most beneficial (or whatever) order you like. Usually that's the penalty to caster levels from Spellthief and Divination Spellpower, then Practiced Spellcaster - bringing you up to your level for CL, followed by Master Spellthief, boosting it by +1 for the Spellthief level.