So what's the deal with grafts? (3.5)

[gallagher]

so i have been reading through lords of madness, and have been particularly interested by the grafts section. they seem pretty cool for a silly game, and some even for serious games... but then i saw the price... and the fact that they wither away.

is there any way to mitigate these? or are there other grafts in other books that seem a bit more reasonable? i mean seriously, i wouldnt think that a +2 to strength is worth 110,000 gp

[AslanCross]

Most of the grafts are prohibitively expensive. The only one I found interesting for a relatively low price is the Mighty Arms graft (Faiths of Eberron) that basically gives you automail for 1000 GP.

[The-Mage-King]

First, where does it say that they wither away? Only Aboleth and Silithar grafts do that, and that's only when not applied to things mutated by Aboleths or that are living and corporeal (respectively).

They're just as permenant as magic items- moreso, since they no longer have any magic once crafted.

As for the +2 strength, that untyped and permenant. Your actual strength score goes up from it, and unless they rip your arms off, it stays that way.

Even in an anti-magic field. I'd say that's worth the gold.


And, of course, if you craft them yourself, the price sinks like a stone- applying Extraordinary Artisan, Magical Artisan, Apprentice (Craftsman) and a host of other things will reduce the cost by more than you might thing. Just using those three on the mention arms, you've got a graft that costs you 27843.75 gp to craft. And there's still more cost reduction tricks.

[Dusk Eclipse]

There are some fiendish grafts (FF) that get some love; the feathered wings grafts, is particularly nice since it gives you a non-magical flight speed with average manoeuvrability (I think) for something like 13 K... you have to be evil ( or a hellbred) to avoid some nasty penalties.

Hey actually a hellbred with the feathered wings grafts, would pass for a nice fallen angel archetype.... :Takes some notes:

[sonofzeal]

- Silthilar grafts are expensive because they stack with everything, and can in theory be applied repeatedly. This makes them even more valuable than Tomes.

- Grafts are generally as permanent as magic items, more so because they can't be stolen or destroyed without significantly more effort, and function even if you're stripped naked in a jail cell.

- Other books have cheaper grafts, although beware: there are actually two distinct systems for grafts. Classic!Grafts, like the ones you're looking at, can only be made by the appropriate races or by Fleshwarpers. New!Grafts, like in Magic of Eberron, can be made by anyone with the right feat and get synergy bonuses, but generally apply some penalty as well and have a whole bunch of new restrictions, including an absolute prohibition against adding different types of grafts to the same creature.

[AtomicKitKat]

- Other books have cheaper grafts, although beware: there are actually two distinct systems for grafts. Classic!Grafts, like the ones you're looking at, can only be made by the appropriate races or by Fleshwarpers. New!Grafts, like in Magic of Eberron, can be made by anyone with the right feat and get synergy bonuses, but generally apply some penalty as well and have a whole bunch of new restrictions, including an absolute prohibition against adding different types of grafts to the same creature.

Quoted for truth. Anyone serious about Grafts ignores the existence of Eberron Grafts(or at least the restriction). Otherwise, it's a serious nerf to the Fleshwarper. Where Classic! lets him become some hideousglorious amalgamation of body parts, New! tells him: "Put all these together on anyone(including yourself), and they(or you) will explode! For reals! Have Fun!". The Grafts in anything Eberron, as well as Races of the Dragon, fall under "New!". Fiend Folio, Libris Mortis, Lords of Madness are "Classic!". Any other sources?

Oh yeah, forgot to add. Most "Classic!" Grafts fall under "The rules don't say I do." with regards to costs. That is, unless it explicitly says "This Graft replaces a/an X", you don't have to chop your arm off to put on an Arm Graft.

Edit: Also, the Fiendish Arms are all excellent for different combat roles. Long/Tentacle Arms will let you play around with Extended Reach. One of the Arms casts Magic Missile. Grappling Tentacle provides Racial Grapple Bonus(although RAW they shouldn't stack, I'd argue that they should, in the vein of the Illithid Extract). The Beholder eyes(that don't involve becoming piratical) are also pretty awesome.

[LOTRfan]

Can the two separate graft systems be used together, or is it a bad idea to mix the two grafts together?

[sonofzeal]

Can the two separate graft systems be used together, or is it a bad idea to mix the two grafts together?
The two are completely incompatible, in that you can't apply the rules of New!Grafts to Old!Grafts with any consistency. But as long as you're careful to keep them separate, they can both function. The only real oddity is that Fleshwarper only works with Old!Grafts, although that's easy to houserule.

[Callista]

Untyped bonus... worth the price. Just like using a Wish spell, only with more undead/fiend/random-weird-monster-ness.

[Alleran]

Untyped bonus... worth the price. Just like using a Wish spell, only with more undead/fiend/random-weird-monster-ness.
As I recall, Wish spells provide an inherent bonus, not an untyped one.

[Runestar]

I think the price is usually doubled as grafts as effectively slotless, hence the exhorbitant price.

[Zaq]

I will just chime in that I'm actually a big fan of the so-called New!Grafts, mostly because they're cheap enough that they can actually see play in a low-to-mid level game. One really nice one is the Glaring Eye (RotD), which gives 30' blindsense for 10k, which is incredibly useful (and, unlike the Blindfold of True Darkness, doesn't prevent you from seeing beyond that point—sure, it's blindsense and not blindsight, but it's really not bad).

Of course, the ones in Magic of Eberron are the really fun ones, even if they're not always mechanically the best—I mean, a true gaze attack for a mere 7k (Scorching Gaze)? You can't tell me that's not cool. Then there's the Grappling Vine: 7k for your choice of web shooters, a pocket tentacle, Go Go Gadget Arms, or Scorpion's "get over here!" move, depending on your particular flavor of fluff? And it gets constrict? You could definitely do worse. The "only one type of graft per creature!" rule is, I agree, quite annoying and a prime target for houseruling away (because honestly, it doesn't add anything), but even without getting rid of that rule, I still think that they're cool.

[sonofzeal]

I think the price is usually doubled as grafts as effectively slotless, hence the exhorbitant price.
Old!Grafts, yes. There are still some valuable ones that are worth the price; I used to have a whole breakdown, but it was destroyed in a computer crash. New!Grafts tend to vary widely between overpriced and underpriced, but the penalties for using them may account for that.

My favourite New!Graft is definitely Buffeting Fist for near-total immunity to arrows, as well as a potentially useful knockback effect. My favourite Old!Graft... well, probably Shudder Plate. A slotless Tremoursense 15' is worth a penalty on Move Silently and 8k gp, for all but stealthers. Good against invisibility, but also important as some insurance against blindness, which can royally hose a lot of characters.

[AtomicKitKat]

Have I mentioned how much I love the tentacle Grafts? Seriously though, Tentacles get a lot of funky reach-y buffing things. I do wonder though, if you took Illithid Body Savant, would the Class Feature that extends their facial tentacles apply to Grafted tentacles on other body parts? Other things that keep me up at night: "Does the bit about 'for each tentacle already attached' apply if other tentacles than your facial ones are attached? Are you allowed to freely attach non-facial tentacles if you managed to get an Improved Grab grapple with one of the facial tentacles?"

I must have been an Architeutidae Ecchius in a previous life.:smalltongue:

[Greenish]

Then there's the Grappling Vine: 7k for your choice of web shooters, a pocket tentacle, Go Go Gadget Arms, or Scorpion's "get over here!" move, depending on your particular flavor of fluff? And it gets constrict? You could definitely do worse.I'm not sure why they felt it necessary, but it specifies the vines can't support your weight, so you can't do Spiderman. :smallfrown:

[gallagher]

I'm not sure why they felt it necessary, but it specifies the vines can't support your weight, so you can't do Spiderman. :smallfrown:
they have a feat called brachiatron which almost does this... though i have never heard of anyone taking it.

and yes, the vines cant support your weight, but i bet they can support a grappling hook, and the rope after being set can support your weight

[Greenish]

they have a feat called brachiatron which almost does this... though i have never heard of anyone taking it.It'd be funny, though there's a spell that does the same, I seem to recall. Oh, and of course two Rods of Ropes.


and yes, the vines cant support your weight, but i bet they can support a grappling hook, and the rope after being set can support your weightIt'd be easier to just toss the hook, since the vines only have 10' reach.

[gallagher]

It'd be easier to just toss the hook, since the vines only have 10' reach.

i was more thinking that you could be holding onto the rope, and have the vines place it or something. the rope is still supporting all the weight, the vines are just moving freely to place the grappling hooks where they will stick and then removing them.

its like a more elaborate indiana jones whip thing

[Greenish]

i was more thinking that you could be holding onto the rope, and have the vines place it or something.Yes, that's what I was thinking of when I observed that it'd be easier to just toss the hook.