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Folytopo
2011-01-11, 09:11 PM
My gaming group is taking the plunge into gurps after several years of D&D. The base of the system seems pretty simple. Skills are tied to stats and that determines what you need to roll under. The problem is that it is a very open system. I am looking for suggestions on finding information and ways to help the GM.

We are trying to run a game based on espionage set in 20XX. The group has the hard cover books for 4e and we have covert ops, psionics, also we are thinking about the rogue book and the special ops book. Are there any other resources that we should buy?

Second Question, what are some general principles that the GM should keep in mind? Any tips on running the game?

Thank you for your feedback.

The Big Dice
2011-01-11, 10:07 PM
Star small. Stick to just the basic books until you've got a grasp of the basics of the system. While it may seem the GURPS is simpler than D&D, in a lot of ways that's not as simple as if first appears.

I don't know how much stuff is in 4th ed GURPS, but in 3rd there was this concept called the Basic Set Campaign. What that meant was, if the rules for a certain thing were in the basic Set, then it was ok to use. So psionics and magic were ok because they both have a chapter in the basic set. But martial arts and super powers were not, because they didn't.

If you can apply the same principle with 4th, I would definetly suggest that, at least to begin with. Once you get more comfortable with things, then stretch out and see where you can go with GURPS.

Kaldrin
2011-01-12, 12:35 AM
We are trying to run a game based on espionage set in 20XX. The group has the hard cover books for 4e and we have covert ops, psionics, also we are thinking about the rogue book and the special ops book. Are there any other resources that we should buy?

Actually, Psionics is already in 4e. It's just a general power set of advantages now with various enhancements and limitations on them. You can use them as is or develop them into a cohesive list.

I'd look at Powers if you intend on doing Psionics conversion/update. Ultra Tech (it's decent for high tech levels) and perhaps even Gun-fu (pdf available on their site for wicked bad-ass gunmen) might be something you want to look at.

Also, GURPS is a system based on realism as the default rules, so as a default set modern and high tech weapons are very deadly. Give them lots of defenses or DR if you want to throw them at squads of guys and maintain that realistic sense, but keep them alive.



Second Question, what are some general principles that the GM should keep in mind? Any tips on running the game?

I'd suggest looking through the books that you do have for optional rules and implement whatever you feel would be the type of game you want to run.

DukeofDellot
2011-01-12, 03:27 AM
First thing to remember, and this is more for players than GM, but it's a GM consideration as well. In DnD, or at least a lot of groups that play it, run in a "Everything goes" sort of manner. In GURPS, this doesn't work. Stand firm in what you want to allow, if a player decides he wants the ability to "digest the world by thinking too hard" just say no. Unless of course you want to run a game with Dinosaur Riding Nazis fighting a ragtag team of adventures including Chuck Norris the Third, Daffy Duck, and Glognor the Barbarian as they try to uncover an illegal trade ring of Mithril goods that are being melted down and mixed with a secret ingredient to become a fuel that powers a world destroying organic weapon. In which case, I'd suggest the Infinite Worlds setting book.

Second thing to know. When you need a character on the spot, and he needs to roll for something, have a few benchmarks on what a skill levels are. For me I stick with skill 10 for a hobbyist, 12 for a Professional, 15 for a Hero, and 18 for a Master, then add applicable modifiers.

On that note, don't worry about point values too much when building NPCs. A point total rarely says anything about how strong a character is in a fight. A fifty point character can destroy entire worlds at a time (if built by a true munchkin) and a believable and entertaining to play 250 point character could be nearly incapable of defending herself (see it, and it was pretty fun character).

One last thing. Combat. An attack is a complicated process. First you roll, then the opponent rolls, then the you roll again, then you subtract from that roll, then you multiply the roll by a value, then you apply the side effects of the damage... it's pretty lengthy. So really, you'll want to know these by heart, as you'll be talking your players through them (if you play in a "GM as a Rule Keeper" group like mine is) so read it over several times and fight against yourself in a couple theoretical battles.

Actually, one more. Templates. When building characters, it takes a while. In high point games, it can take hours to build a single character unless the player knows what he wants. If you take the extra step before starting the game to build Character Templates (which are effectively Classes in DnD), you'll get into the actual game a lot faster. Unless your players are actually willing to build characters ahead of time... which I don't have but want.

Zuljita
2011-01-12, 10:18 AM
with perhaps the exception of a setting book to include the tech level you intend (high tech or ultra tech) I would stop collecting gurps books right now, and breathe.... There is far more crunch in the basic set than you really need. Run some combat, try some things out, make sure you know those rules and construct some reference sheets for combat maneuvers for players, its a new system and can be much more complex than D&D if you let it.

I *Really* like Gurps Character Assistant for chargen, it makes sure your maths are right and you can filter out things like magic or super powers if you dont intend to use them

Seconded on the statement that everything goes in GURPS doesnt work. It just doesnt, you MUST stand behind your convictions as to whats allowed or not.

Have a clear idea in your mind about the level of cinematics you will allow, weapon master? trained by a master? Weirdness magnet? Wildcard skills can be a fun way to simplify a character and make the game more cinematic. Science! is a skill that fairly well reflects lots of the uber-nerds we see in TV and moves, but is very cinematic.

Cyrion
2011-01-12, 11:04 AM
The deadliness of modern combat in GURPS bears being repeated. Characters are exceedingly squishy because damage dice increase with the power of the weapon, but characters don't really have a mechanism for advancing HP unless you sacrifice pure realism by allowing something like ablative DR.

Also, watch out for high skill levels until you get used to the system. The skill system is quite easy to break with a little planning. Put a 16 or 17 into DEX, get the intelligence synergy on accuracy and invest relatively few skill points into weapon skills, and you've got a marksman who won't miss on anything but a 3. Once you've got some experience manipulating the system, you can find ways to make it more difficult for him and balance out the high skill, but until then...

TalonDemonKing
2011-01-12, 11:12 AM
Starting small is the best idea. It might be tempting to run with 1000+ point characters with an amazing amount of advantages, but that tends to easily breakthings.

Playing characters that are roughly 150~ points would be pretty good start. Remember that most points should go into skills, not into advantages.

Another idea to wrap your head around is that GURPS combat is DEADLY. You don't wade into combat and kill a hundred people, only to be healed to full later on. Its -Possible-, but not likely.

TheWhisper
2011-01-12, 06:39 PM
Played GURPS for many years.

Generally, it's superior to and far more balanced than more primitive games such as D&D. But it does have some flaws.

In general, it's far more realistic in the sense that characters are more fragile. Players should be aware of this, and not expect to win fistfights with a dump truck and two cape buffalo.

You'll have to do a lot less fiat rulings if characters try unusual things. Whatever it is, there's a skill for it.

Combat goes a lot faster, since it's all based on a fairly simple mechanic, and there's no looking up feats, and handling the 26 exceptions to every basic rule.

Suggest you allow characters some sort of access to healing (magic or psi or techno-macguffin), because otherwise it's a bit too realistic.

Don't let them take too many disadvantages. And beware of disadvantages that require a lot of work on your part (I'm looking at you, "Dependent NPC".)

The Active Defense mechanic breaks at higher combat skill levels.

Kaldrin
2011-01-12, 08:26 PM
The Active Defense mechanic breaks at higher combat skill levels.

What makes you say that?

a_humble_lich
2011-01-12, 09:18 PM
I'm not sure if it counts as breaking, but defenses above 10 or so mean combats devolve into "I hit, I dodge, I hit, I dodge, ..."

What my group would say for characters with active defenses above 10 is if you roll below 10 you dodge. If you roll above 10 then the dodge is considered a quick contest of skill with the attacker.

Kaldrin
2011-01-12, 10:03 PM
I'm not sure if it counts as breaking, but defenses above 10 or so mean combats devolve into "I hit, I dodge, I hit, I dodge, ..."

What my group would say for characters with active defenses above 10 is if you roll below 10 you dodge. If you roll above 10 then the dodge is considered a quick contest of skill with the attacker.

Is that with 4e? There are things like deceptive attacks which give -1 to the defender's parry, dodge and block for each -2 you take to your attack skill. Added to that, multiple defense rolls on the same turn accrue cumulative penalties.

I've never really had a problem making high defense characters sweat. There's also the fact that in a point-buy game a high defense means those points aren't spent anywhere else. That alone can be problematic.

Folytopo
2011-01-13, 01:25 AM
Thank you for the info. We are doing a 150 point game and we are going to run a mock combat this weekend. I will be making a reference sheet quickly to help with the combat. We are hoping to run an espionage game, so lethal combat should not be that bad as generally they should get the drop on people or avoid it altogether.

A few questions about running the game. How is deception handled? Do acting, fast talk, forgery and disguise cover it? What kind of electronic defenses and offences should they be allowed to take? What skills should I point the players towards? Any other crunch things I should be including?

DukeofDellot
2011-01-13, 01:47 AM
Forgot something important:

Head the word of Kromm (http://forums.sjgames.com/showpost.php?p=369148&postcount=22)!

Also, there's an advantage called "Combat Reflexes [15]" it's necessary for most characters who plan on doing a lot of fighting.


But, yes those are the skills for deception, and sadly I have little experience with games outside of historic fantasy, but something you should notice, Range penalties and Hit locations as they appear on the basic character sheet that appears in the back of the Basic Set Characters. Encourage your players to take a round to Aim (and get the Acc bonus to hit).

The Big Dice
2011-01-13, 05:32 AM
I'm not sure if it counts as breaking, but defenses above 10 or so mean combats devolve into "I hit, I dodge, I hit, I dodge, ..."

What my group would say for characters with active defenses above 10 is if you roll below 10 you dodge. If you roll above 10 then the dodge is considered a quick contest of skill with the attacker.

10 is only a 50/50 chance of success on 3d6. I found you start running into problems when people have defenses in the 14+ range. BUt then, at 8 points for increase, people tended to stop improving their physical skills at around 18 or so in 3rd ed. It just got too expensive to go past there.

Unless it was guns, but there I found that range and keeping gunfights mobile was a huge help. If you're running after someone who keeps diving into cover, so you don't have time to aim and you're shooting at a partial target, it cuts into those skills of 21 by quite a margin.

Zuljita
2011-01-13, 07:13 AM
A few questions about running the game. How is deception handled? Do acting, fast talk, forgery and disguise cover it? What kind of electronic defenses and offences should they be allowed to take? What skills should I point the players towards? Any other crunch things I should be including?

dont forget savoir faire for deception.
electronic defenses and offenses? are we talking equipment here?
*edit*
and what tech level?

Cyrion
2011-01-13, 10:51 AM
I don't know if it's been updated for 4e, but in all my 3e games, Running was an automatic 1 point investment for a sharp increase in speed.

It's not a specific skill, but encourage your characters to invest at least a couple of points in something semi-random for that character- maybe put something into history or ice skating or whatever. Then throw in occasional opportunities to use unique skills. It encourages a little more character in the characters and is usually a fun way to give players a quick spotlight.

The Big Dice
2011-01-13, 12:52 PM
I don't know if it's been updated for 4e, but in all my 3e games, Running was an automatic 1 point investment for a sharp increase in speed.
That exploit got some eratta so that a Running skill didn't affect your Dodge or combat speed, just how far you could move. Which I felt sucked, but it did stop an easy cheesy 1 point exploit, so I guess it's not too bad.

Folytopo
2011-01-13, 12:55 PM
Thanks for the link to the word of Kromm it was most helpful. We are going to running a tech level 8 game so any items that should be considered necessary?

Kaldrin
2011-01-13, 01:11 PM
Thank you for the info. We are doing a 150 point game and we are going to run a mock combat this weekend. I will be making a reference sheet quickly to help with the combat. We are hoping to run an espionage game, so lethal combat should not be that bad as generally they should get the drop on people or avoid it altogether.

You might also want to look at talents. They are advantages that give small clusters of skills a bonus for each level (4 max.). There's also targeted attacks, a technique, which takes away up to half the penalty for hitting a specific area, rounded down. So, a brain shot of -7 becomes a -4 if you buy it up enough.

Stealth and targeted attack [brain] combined with a sap work very well, especially when you apply all-out-attack for extra damage and telegraphing your attack for the bonus to cover the hit penalties.



A few questions about running the game. How is deception handled? Do acting, fast talk, forgery and disguise cover it? What kind of electronic defenses and offences should they be allowed to take? What skills should I point the players towards? Any other crunch things I should be including?

The skills themselves have pretty good descriptions of what they do and how they apply. Most of that type of element is situational. You can't use fast-talk to convince someone you're faking being dead because you have to talk to them. Acting can aid in fast-talk, but it can't help you at all with forgery.

Electronic stuff is up to you, really. I usually go with the route of equipment like anti-jamming tech, hand-held detectors, electronic warfare devices, etc. The electronics operation and electronics repair skills are specialized though, so they might have to learn several types if they want to be universally talented at it.

Kaldrin
2011-01-13, 01:16 PM
Thanks for the link to the word of Kromm it was most helpful. We are going to running a tech level 8 game so any items that should be considered necessary?

If there's any gun play at all, ballistic vests are pretty much mandatory. They can be worn under suits and other clothes. Driving skill is pretty much critical if they're doing any kind of transportation usage.

TL/8 is our tech level, so anything you feel would apply, apply it.

I would suggest you at least register over on the SJGames forums too. There are people that know the system so well they can quote pages without looking them up.

DukeofDellot
2011-01-13, 01:16 PM
Duct Tape, Lots of Duct Tape.

And add in a Shovel, you never know when you may need it.

Really, it's the same gear you'd have in DnD, just modernized.


Oh, and the Active Defense thing. In Fourth Edition, a skill never costs more than [4] to raise to the next level, and Active Defenses are calculated at 3 + 1/2 level. So your skill will raise much faster. Also you may make a Deceptive Strike at -2 per -1 you wish to drop your opponent's attack, so if an opponent keeps parrying, you can start dropping there defenses and dropping them right and proper if you pay attention to the bell curve. Something else, Armor no longer raises your defenses.

This is a moot point when working with automatic weapons, since you only dodge as many hits as your degree of success in your dodge. So a pistol that has a RoF 3, and you succeed in your attack by three times your recoil, your opponent must beat his dodge by at least 2 (a degree of success of 0 gets the first one) to not get hurt. And even then you may make a deceptive strike if you're a true gunslinger.

fusilier
2011-01-13, 01:26 PM
Thank you for the info. We are doing a 150 point game and we are going to run a mock combat this weekend. I will be making a reference sheet quickly to help with the combat. . . . <snip>

That's a very good idea. I typically use a reference sheet tailored to the particular game I'm running. A 17th century swashbuckling game doesn't require knowledge of submachine gun reload times, likewise immediate action on a wheellock pistol isn't needed for a game set during Prohibition. :-)

I've found it's generally a good idea to spend some time reading the rules to determine which rules are actually going to matter in my game, and make reference cards (with page number references for more info). A wounding reference sheet is very useful (injuries, crippling wounds, and healing/recovery).

For skill checks, I found I had to come up with modifiers on the fly, and had some trouble initially. But after a couple of games I found I was much more comfortable with it.

The Big Dice
2011-01-13, 01:33 PM
TL/8 is our tech level, so anything you feel would apply, apply it.
We got the promotion?

Previously we were a mature TL 7 society. I guess at some point they decided we'd developed enough to get to TL 8.

Zuljita
2011-01-13, 01:37 PM
yup. as of 4th ed TL 8 is right now, so look at spy movies for ideas, and consider gurps high tech for equipment, but dont get too intricate, you can spend lots of time messing with some of the more detailed gear rules, but in the end they typically just bog things down.

For the reference sheet i strongly reccomend a crit success chart that shows what skill gets you crits on what rolls in addition to some of the other wonderful things others have mentioned. I played in a game with a great gun reference sheet, ill look it over when i get home and see what i suggest from there.

Kaldrin
2011-01-13, 03:35 PM
The Tech Levels were changed a bit in the latest edition. There's no actual hard and fast 'this society is TL/[x]' anymore. All places have different levels across many areas. Modern societies (the 'West', Japan, and some places in China, etc.) are supposedly averaged out to be early TL/8. Arms and computer tech being mid-TL/8 and medical being high TL/7 or just entering TL/8. There are even some places on earth that are not above TL/5 or 6.

That's the general consensus on the game forums.

Gengulphus
2011-01-13, 05:23 PM
Generally, what everyone else said. More specifically, in the first GURPS game I GMed with firearms, the players stumbled upon a shotgun in the back of a sheriff's car. DO NOT ever let a shotgun enter play your first time out with the system unless you've read and understood the rules for it completely. And keep a calculator behind your GM screen.

That having been said, GURPS is far and away my favorite system. I hope you and your players love it!

The Big Dice
2011-01-13, 06:12 PM
DO NOT ever let a shotgun enter play your first time out with the system unless you've read and understood the rules for it completely. And keep a calculator behind your GM screen.
Shotguns in 3rd either suck completely against anyone with a vest, or they kill any and everything.

I always found the assault rifles to be the abusive ones. High rate of fire, horriffic accuracy and if you use high Tech rules, the ability to walk a burst. And that's still not as bad as when we first got Ultra Tech and the GM gave my character a graser carbine.

Kaldrin
2011-01-13, 08:02 PM
Shotguns don't require a calculator. I hope you were exaggerating for effect. The mechanics of them are problematic, but the rules are perfectly understandable. With high skill you do tend to get some weird results. In a zombie apoc game I ran the priest wielding a shotgun could hit the zombies with all pellets at a distance when all the pellets should have dispersed to an area larger than the head of normal human... we just decided to ignore the problem in favour of cinematic fun.

Knaight
2011-01-13, 08:59 PM
We got the promotion?

Previously we were a mature TL 7 society. I guess at some point they decided we'd developed enough to get to TL 8.

Steve Jackson himself said as much, in an article that basically came down to "medicine and computers advanced a lot faster than I thought they would. Particularly computers." I'm trying to dig it up.

TheWhisper
2011-01-13, 09:20 PM
What makes you say that?

When active defense rolls get too high, it becomes more or less a matter of who gets unlucky first.

Kaldrin
2011-01-13, 11:04 PM
When active defense rolls get too high, it becomes more or less a matter of who gets unlucky first.

As we've pointed out there are several options on reducing high defense rolls. Luck has little to do with it.

Ragitsu
2011-01-13, 11:39 PM
*Feint
*Deceptive Attack
*Weapons that are hard(er) to Parry or Block against
*Area weaponry, like molotov cocktails and grenades
*Unseen attacks

Zuljita
2011-01-14, 08:27 AM
in 4e shotgun rules are simplified a bit, they just use the burst weapon rules and the burst weapon chart.
*edit*
here is a link to a decent combat maneuvers reference sheet (http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=76205)

Ragitsu
2011-01-14, 04:28 PM
http://www.themook.net/rpg/examples/

Enjoy.

TheWhisper
2011-01-14, 06:09 PM
*Weapons that are hard(er) to Parry or Block against
*Area weaponry, like molotov cocktails and grenades
*Unseen attacks

While these all work, they fail to reflect the reality that a better fighter has an easier time breaking your defenses than a poor one.



*Feint
*Deceptive Attack


Not familiar with these. Of course, I was playing second edition, and this was 18 years ago at least.

Explain?

Cybren
2011-01-14, 06:16 PM
deceptive attack lets you take a -2 penalty to skill to give the opponent a -1 penalty to defense. Combine that with attacking the side or rear, feints or beats, any conditional modifiers, using weapons or techniques that penalize defense rolls, you can get some pretty nice penalties on there.

a feint is less commonly used but allows you to lower an opponents defenses by making an attack against the opponent, but instead of hitting, you trick them. Your opponent has a penalty equal to your margin of success with the feint on his next active defense roll against you

Ragitsu
2011-01-14, 06:23 PM
Not familiar with these. Of course, I was playing second edition, and this was 18 years ago at least.

Explain?




FEINT

“Fake” a melee attack. You cannot Feint someone unless you could have hit him with a melee attack – that is, your weapon is ready and your foe is within reach. This maneuver is not an attack, though, and does not make your weapon unready.

When you Feint, roll a Quick Contest of Melee Weapon skills with your foe; if either of you is unarmed, you may roll against an unarmed combat skill instead. Your opponent may opt to roll against Cloak or Shield skill, if he is suitably equipped and this would give him a better roll. If his DX is better than his combat skills, he may roll against DX instead.

If you fail your roll, your Feint is unsuccessful. Likewise, if you succeed, but your foe succeeds by as much as or more than you do, your Feint fails.

If you make your roll, and your foe fails, subtract your margin of success from the foe’s active defense if you attack him with Attack, All-Out Attack, or Move and Attack on your next turn. For instance, if your skill is 15 and you roll a 12, your foe defends against you at -3 next turn.

If you and your foe both succeed, but you succeed by more, subtract your margin of victory from the foe’s defense. For instance, if your skill is 15 and you roll a 10 (success by 5), and your foe’s skill is 14 and he rolls 12 (success by 2), you win by 3, so he will defend at -3 if your next maneuver is
to attack him.

You cannot Feint if your foe is unable to observe you! However, if your foe runs away, turns his back on you, or loses sight of you in some way after you successfully Feint, he will still suffer his defense penalty if you attack him on your next turn. If you lose track of the foe, or cannot attack him next turn, your foe’s defense penalty vanishes.

A Feint is good for one second! But if you Feint and then make an All-Out Attack (Double), the feint applies to both attacks.

In all cases, your allies cannot take advantage of your Feint. The defense penalty applies only to your next attack.

Shield Feints: After you have attacked your foe once by striking with your shield (see p. 406), you may also Feint with your shield, rolling against Shield skill.




Deceptive Attack

You may designate any melee attack as “deceptive” before you roll to hit. A Deceptive Attack is intended to get past an opponent’s defenses through sheer skill. You can use this option to represent any number of advanced fighting techniques.

For every -2 you accept to your own skill, your foe suffers a -1 penalty on his active defenses against this attack. You may not reduce your final effective skill below 10 with a Deceptive Attack, which normally limits it to skilled fighters.

The GM may opt to speed play by limiting Deceptive Attacks to a flat -4 to skill, giving the target -2 on his active defenses.

Hope that helps.