An etiquette question about smoking

[Inigo Montoya]

First, some background. I am very sensitive to scent, to the point where someone smoking a cigar will make me vomit if I don't leave the room. I also take judo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judo), which mostly involves grappling.

This leads me to my problem. One of the guys in the club has a gi that smells like an ashtray. It's bad enough that I had to sit out most of this class, nauseous. He's a nice guy, and I'm not even sure if he smokes at all. Should I say anything, or should I stay quiet?

[Dr.Epic]

I'd mention it but try and be subtle and very civilized about it. A person's clothes should be clean and based on what you said his don't appear to be (but again, bring it up in a kind and dignified manner).

[Karoht]

If he is indeed a smoker, he probably won't notice it on himself, even if he takes a big whiff of his gi.
But, a clean gi is a mark of a respectful student, both to the opponent and the sensei. Possibly even ask your sensei for advice before you brooch the subject with the fellow student.

[Anxe]

A reminder: It's likely bothering the other students as well, although not as much as yourself.

[Don Julio Anejo]

First, some background. I am very sensitive to scent, to the point where someone smoking a cigar will make me vomit if I don't leave the room. I also take judo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judo),
At this point I thought your etiquette question would be about the appropriateness of using your judo skills on smokers :smalltongue:

[Mando Knight]

At this point I thought your etiquette question would be about the appropriateness of using your judo skills on smokers :smalltongue:

In which case the answer would be no, regardless of how much you dislike the smell of smoke, you are not allowed to pin every smoker you come across. :smalltongue:

[drakir_nosslin]

In which case the answer would be no, regardless of how much you dislike the smell of smoke, you are not allowed to pin every smoker you come across. :smalltongue:

Besides, that'll only get you closer to the smell. I recommend a 10 ft. pole. :smalltongue:

But seriously. The Gi should be clean and non-smelly before training sessions. If it's not, ask him politely if it's possible to come in a non-smelly one. Or ask your sensei for advice, that's a good one too.

[Eldan]

Ah, that.

I'm the same. Not really with the vomiting, but I've noticed that I can smell a cigarette at about 20-30 meters and can distinguish smokers from non-smokers across a room in most cases (not occasional smokers, but chain-smokers).
My parents both smoked for ~30 years, and tried giving it up for most of that time. They both said: while you smoke, you don't smell it, even if everyone else just has to take a sniff of your clothes to tell that you smoke. My father finally managed to stop smoking and he says the same now: it takes about a year after you stop, but after that, everything stinks.

Now, for the etiquette: it's difficult. Depending on how rational and mature that person is, likely responses are "Oh, sorry", "Are you crazy? There's nothing here" and "Are you trying to insult me?"

So, it really depends on the person in question. You said he's a nice guy, so he's hopefully reasonable.

[rakkoon]

I would ask the sensei to issue a general statement, that way it's not that personal. You can just say that some people should was their gi more and ask your sensei to deliver the message to all students.

Which reminds me, time to change my avvie

[Maelstrom]

Not a smoker here, but...

Just because someone else *possibly* has a habit that you cannot stomach (literally, in your case), does not entitle you to be accommodated.

As for those recommending the person in question here come to the session with a clean gi, what if he is, just he smoked a few cig's on the way to the dojo?

Anyway, I am with you -- I hate the smell of stale cigarettes on people, but I deal with it. Sooo....deal with it and get used to the fact that the world does not revolve around individuals.

[drakir_nosslin]

Not a smoker here, but...

Just because someone else *possibly* has a habit that you cannot stomach (literally, in your case), does not entitle you to be accommodated.

As for those recommending the person in question here come to the session with a clean gi, what if he is, just he smoked a few cig's on the way to the dojo?

Anyway, I am with you -- I hate the smell of stale cigarettes on people, but I deal with it. Sooo....deal with it and get used to the fact that the world does not revolve around individuals.

The same could be said about the individual that comes to the training in a gi that smells of smoke. It's is likely (assuming that the general population where the OP lives is similar to the people in the area where I live) that there are more people than just the OP who are troubled by this. In my opinion it's the one who causes discomfort who should adapt, and not the one who is discomforted.
I'd say it's better to ask the smoker not to smoke before training, if he comes with a clean gi, instead of ruining a whole session for one (or possibly more).

[Mathis]

Talking to your sensei, and then the person in question is definately the best order of business. In the dojo where I train, personal hygiene including the state of your gi is a very important aspect of the training. Coming to practice in a clean gi shows respect towards both the art and your fellow students. I assume that this is the case in any serious dojo worth it's salt. This means that your sensei should be able to take the person in question aside and mention the smelly gi. If this doesn't improve, talk to the person directly and explain your problem in a polite and humble manner.

For future posters considering whining about smokers in this thread: this is not a question of smoking and non-smoking, but a question about personal hygiene.

[happyturtle]

My first husband was a smoker. A couple of weeks after I moved out, I suddenly realized that all of my clothes smelled like smoke, and laundered everything. I literally couldn't smell it until I wasn't in the environment anymore.

As for etiquette, there's really no easy way to tell someone they smell bad. Good luck.

[grimbold]

I'd mention it but try and be subtle and very civilized about it. A person's clothes should be clean and based on what you said his don't appear to be (but again, bring it up in a kind and dignified manner).

agreed
its not your fault he smells like smoke
but try to be civil

[Salbazier]

Not a smoker here, but...

Just because someone else *possibly* has a habit that you cannot stomach (literally, in your case), does not entitle you to be accommodated.

As for those recommending the person in question here come to the session with a clean gi, what if he is, just he smoked a few cig's on the way to the dojo?

Anyway, I am with you -- I hate the smell of stale cigarettes on people, but I deal with it. Sooo....deal with it and get used to the fact that the world does not revolve around individuals.

...

I honestly confused what I should say...

If someone is giving me medical problems (yes, OP's condition is counted as medical problem for me and I took medical issu seriously), I'll definiteley ask for some consideration from that person. I'm willing to give people with medical issue some consideration myself and I expect the same from others.

Purposely inconveniencing people is a bad attitude, making people (literally) sick is worse.

[Maelstrom]

...

I honestly confused what I should say...

If someone is giving me medical problems (yes, OP's condition is counted as medical problem for me and I took medical issu seriously), I'll definiteley ask for some consideration from that person. I'm willing to give people with medical issue some consideration myself and I expect the same from others.

Purposely inconveniencing people is a bad attitude, making people (literally) sick is worse.

So forcing someone to your will (whom is doing something legal, and not knowingly or with malice causing issues with someone else), rather than distancing yourself, because you know that it bothers you is ok with you?

Here again, we have the minority over the majority where neither party is legally, morally, or otherwise wrong. I empathize with your position, and I sincerely hope the guy has the class to work with whoever is affected, but to tell him not to do something he has every right to do is, well, out of line.

[Eldan]

If he smells strongly, I'm sure there are other people in there at least annoyed by that stench, and at that moment, he is not a majority. Just saying.

[Maelstrom]

If he smells strongly, I'm sure there are other people in there at least annoyed by that stench, and at that moment, he is not a majority. Just saying.

At the moment, we have only one person who is admittedly "very sensitive to scent" putting forth that postulation, so I have to discount this...

[drakir_nosslin]

At the moment, we have only one person who is admittedly "very sensitive to scent" putting forth that postulation, so I have to discount this...

But one vs. one puts neither of them in the majority, and one of them gets sick by something the other causes and by fixing this it's also likely that the smoker also would improve his own health. If, on the other hand, the OP avoids getting sick by not going to the training sessions he'll be losing out on something while the smoker won't get anything positive out of it (unless he dislikes the OP or has another reason for not wanting him to come to the training, but that's not something we can know.).

[Maelstrom]

But one vs. one puts neither of them in the majority, and one of them gets sick by something the other causes and by fixing this it's also likely that the smoker also would improve his own health. If, on the other hand, the OP avoids getting sick by not going to the training sessions he'll be losing out on something while the smoker won't get anything positive out of it (unless he dislikes the OP or has another reason for not wanting him to come to the training, but that's not something we can know.).

Right, neither one is wrong nor right, I agree. But now take this in another light. Say now, instead of being overly sensitive to smell, our subject is over sensitive to say, something in laundry detergent. Every time he spares with Person A, he gets contact rashes that send him into anaphylaxis. Does subject now demand person a change his laundry detergent? Or does he move across the room and spar with person b (who is hopefully using a compatible detergent)? Or do we force person A to do what we think is right and moral though using laundry detergent is a personal choice?

[Zen Monkey]

So forcing someone to your will (whom is doing something legal, and not knowingly or with malice causing issues with someone else), rather than distancing yourself, because you know that it bothers you is ok with you?

Here again, we have the minority over the majority where neither party is legally, morally, or otherwise wrong. I empathize with your position, and I sincerely hope the guy has the class to work with whoever is affected, but to tell him not to do something he has every right to do is, well, out of line.

It's also perfectly legal to give up bathing and then jog to school/work or to apply perfume/cologne with a ladle, but I wouldn't want to have to share a small space with someone that did these things. Etiquette is about what is polite or appropriate, not about what is or is not a legal right. It's bad etiquette to simply reek of cigarettes when you know that people are going to have to be close to you.

[drakir_nosslin]

Right, neither one is wrong nor right, I agree. But now take this in another light. Say now, instead of being overly sensitive to smell, our subject is over sensitive to say, something in laundry detergent. Every time he spares with Person A, he gets contact rashes that send him into anaphylaxis. Does subject now demand person a change his laundry detergent? Or does he move across the room and spar with person b (who is hopefully using a compatible detergent)? Or do we force person A to do what we think is right and moral though using laundry detergent is a personal choice?

Firstly, this is not a fair comparison. The OP said:

It's bad enough that I had to sit out most of this class, nauseous.

And if the training is anything like a normal martial arts training, it is likely that he didn't spar with the smoker all the time, possibly not ever. But yes, I think that it's reasonable to ask, it's not insulting, it's a medical condition. The OP can't do much about it, it's how his body reacts, while it's not that hard to change laundry detergent. In fact it might be easier to solve than the smoking, since you don't get addicted to laundry detergent afaik.

EDIT: Also, considering that it is possible to die from Anaphylaxis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anaphylaxis), I'd say that the user of the laundry detergent better switch, and switch quickly.

Moving on, no one here has used the word 'force' until you did so, in fact the first posts all suggest that the OP should politely ask the smoker to see if he could get the smell out of his gi. I fail to see why this would cause the smoker any kind of issue at all. If it is a problem he feel he can do anything about, he says so, if not the OP will have to find another solution. But just saying 'Man up! Leave the smelly person alone!' is to me a strange approach.

[stainboy]

It's quite possible you're the only one who notices or is bothered by the smell, since it sounds like you're much, much more sensitive to smoke than normal.

That's good news, because it makes it easier to talk to the guy about it. Stress that you have a medical condition and how the smell affects you differently than the average person. That way you don't have to tell him "dude, you smell like an ashtray and everyone around you is offended by it" which is embarrassing and probably not true.

[Sipex]

This is difficult.

In one case, you have the OP who can't help being affected by the smell.

In the other case you have the guy with the smoke smelling Gi who didn't sign any sort of waiver, agreement or anything stating "I will not come to class smelling like smoke."

That said, OP, your best options, in order are.

1) Tell your Sensei and see if there's anything he can do about keeping you and the other guy apart from each other. See if you're able to get enough distance from him during sessions that it doesn't affect you.

2) Talk to the guy and explain that you're not ragging on him, just the smell of the smoke on his clothes affects you really badly. See if he can fix it or maybe offer to spring for a bottle of febreeze he can use when he arrives to class.

3) ??? It really depends where things go from #2. Too many variables. If the guy can't change it (or won't) for whatever reason and the master can't do anything you may have to get creative with solutions or maybe find another class time. This is just one possible situation of many from this point.

[Telonius]

So forcing someone to your will (whom is doing something legal, and not knowingly or with malice causing issues with someone else), rather than distancing yourself, because you know that it bothers you is ok with you?

Here again, we have the minority over the majority where neither party is legally, morally, or otherwise wrong. I empathize with your position, and I sincerely hope the guy has the class to work with whoever is affected, but to tell him not to do something he has every right to do is, well, out of line.

My own opinion on this is that a person's rights end at their own nose. If what you're doing is causing real injury to another person (being "bothered" by it doesn't count, being hurt or ill does) then you have to balance what you're doing with the right of the other person. The OP doesn't have a choice about being sickened by smoke; the other person probably does have a choice about whether or not to do anything about making the OP sick.

To solve the issue, maybe the OP could offer to clean the guy's gi for him, and bring it with him to practice each time. That would solve the problem of the smoky gi (whether it's from his own smoking, or from somebody else in his house) as well as being a pretty good compromise.

[Valameer]

If he is indeed a smoker, he probably won't notice it on himself, even if he takes a big whiff of his gi.


They both said: while you smoke, you don't smell it, even if everyone else just has to take a sniff of your clothes to tell that you smoke.


A couple of weeks after I moved out, I suddenly realized that all of my clothes smelled like smoke, and laundered everything. I literally couldn't smell it until I wasn't in the environment anymore.

Alright, OP...

Just start smoking! Please don't take this seriously.:smallwink:

[Mathis]

This is difficult.

In one case, you have the OP who can't help being affected by the smell.

In the other case you have the guy with the smoke smelling Gi who didn't sign any sort of waiver, agreement or anything stating "I will not come to class smelling like smoke."


Actually, many dojos do have houserules that state very clearly that personal hygiene is very important. In Martial Arts you often get very close with your training partners, this is why anyone training at a dojo needs to be sure that everyone there keeps at least a certain level of hygiene. This would and should include not having a gi that smells of smoke or worse, that's just disrespectful to the art, the dojo, the uniform and fellow practicioners.

[Mystic Muse]

As Telonius said, your right to do something ends when exercising that right harms another human being.

I personally like the suggestion of bringing it up with the sensei first, and if that doesn't succeed, politely bring it up to the student. If he is a nice person, he will probably stop once he finds out it's harming you.

[The Extinguisher]

Yay, this argument again.

Okay, now what if he doesn't smoke? What if he just lives in a house with a bunch of heavy smokers, and he doesn't himself? Now should he be forced to do something about it.
Just because you have an issue with something, doesn't mean that everyone else should change their habits.


Also, I have a question. What is it about the internet that brings out all the people who start getting deathly ill when someone smokes a cigarette across the street from them? I mean, I have never met someone who got physically ill near cigarette smoke, even the people with sensitive lungs/sense of smell.

[Cespenar]

A polite, civilized confrontation.

[Mystic Muse]

Yay, this argument again.

Okay, now what if he doesn't smoke? What if he just lives in a house with a bunch of heavy smokers, and he doesn't himself? Now should he be forced to do something about it.
Just because you have an issue with something, doesn't mean that everyone else should change their habits. I don't think anybody in here has said to force him to change his habits. the posts I've seen all say to politely ask him or the sensei because it causes him unnecessary bodily harm, and it's impolite to show up with a Gi that smells or is dirty anyway.

[Gadora]

[SNIP]
Also, I have a question. What is it about the internet that brings out all the people who start getting deathly ill when someone smokes a cigarette across the street from them? I mean, I have never met someone who got physically ill near cigarette smoke, even the people with sensitive lungs/sense of smell.

Larger sample size.

[happyturtle]

Yay, this argument again.

Okay, now what if he doesn't smoke? What if he just lives in a house with a bunch of heavy smokers, and he doesn't himself? Now should he be forced to do something about it.
Just because you have an issue with something, doesn't mean that everyone else should change their habits.

Again, no one said 'force'. Etiquette has nothing to do with force. The OP did not come into the thread saying 'How can I force the smelly guy to change?'


Also, I have a question. What is it about the internet that brings out all the people who start getting deathly ill when someone smokes a cigarette across the street from them?

This isn't across the street. This is in a room full of hot sweaty people.


I mean, I have never met someone who got physically ill near cigarette smoke, even the people with sensitive lungs/sense of smell.

As Gadora said, larger sample size. And speaking of etiquette, if you choose to belief that chemical sensitivity isn't a real condition, that's certainly your right, but it's impolite to actually tell someone, based on no evidence but your own opinion, 'No, you're not really sick'.

[Frozen_Feet]

The best, and only thing you can really do is tell you can't take the smell and ask to switch partners.

Because if he smokes, or lives in a place where someone smokes, the smell is going to stick on his body and everything else for that matter. I'm not confident even washing the gi would make it non-smelly - tobacco smells takes aeon to fade away.

[Sipex]

We have to keep cool heads here, it's very easy to have this discussion get polarised.

The smoker/smelly guy is NOT a bad bad evil man who should change how he is for the good of all man kind and how dare he smell like smoke, etc.

Likewise, the OP isn't being smoke-sensitive to be a jerk just because he can be (ala that south park episode) and how dare he expect anyone to change their ways, etc.

This is simply a conflict of lifestyles, both parties cannot help (or shouldn't be expected to help) how this is currently working out. The OP can't handle it and the smelly guy most likely doesn't know and possibly can't help it.

This is something that will need to be brought to a compromise. We can only advise the OP though so we're going to have to focus our advice on stuff he could use.

Try something to counteract the effects or smell maybe? Take a couple motion sickness pills before class or maybe put some vaporub in your nose and see if that works if you want to go the non-confrontational route.

[Quincunx]

{Scrubbed}

[Salbazier]

So forcing someone to your will (whom is doing something legal, and not knowingly or with malice causing issues with someone else), rather than distancing yourself, because you know that it bothers you is ok with you?

Here again, we have the minority over the majority where neither party is legally, morally, or otherwise wrong. I empathize with your position, and I sincerely hope the guy has the class to work with whoever is affected, but to tell him not to do something he has every right to do is, well, out of line.

In my case, I won't tell him he can't do something, I'll just tell him that I have medical problem and ask if he can wear a cleaner gi or if he have idea for another solution so both of us can still do the class together without any party end up being a victim.

You are misunderstanding asking for consideration with forcing will.

As for the bolded part, I understand that this guy are speaking don't know anything (but it is my opinion that he at least should be made known). My point about the jerk attitude thing is merely stating my opinion that if someone knows or told that he is troubling others quite badly (since some things are just to petty to complain about) and refuse to give some consideration than, unless he has a good reason to, than it a bad attitude. That is not a comment directed to the guy OP mentioned. My bad if I cause misunderstanding.

Actually, maybe I did worded my statement too extreme/wrongly. I did not mean that the guy must absolutely comply. By consideration I meant more like an effort to reach compromise.

Finally, this is not a majority vs minority issue, since for now, it only a problem between the OP and the other guy. The other dojo members may silently hate or actually love the guy's smell for all we know.

Anyway, I doubt this kind of discussion is helping the OP. I don't have any good advice other than what others have said though. If you want to bring it up to him, do it politely and lightly or talk with your sensei first to see if can help mediate the problem. See first if he is a a person who is unlikely to be offended over things like this, though. If he isn't well, that's depend on how important the class to you. If he is a reasonable person, that I guess you should tell him.

[WarKitty]

I know some smokers or relatives thereof that keep certain garments inside plastic bags. That might be a practical suggesting if the guy isn't sure how to avoid the smoke smell - store the gi folded inside a large ziploc bag when it's not in use.

Regarding the sensitivity: It's probably a combination of larger sample size and anonymity. In real life I often don't say anything if someone's smoke is bothering me, I simply stop attending the event. So you could know me for quite some time and not realize that I am extremely sensitive to smoke.

[Syka]

Regarding the sensitivity: It's probably a combination of larger sample size and anonymity. In real life I often don't say anything if someone's smoke is bothering me, I simply stop attending the event. So you could know me for quite some time and not realize that I am extremely sensitive to smoke.

Same. Where I work we get a lot of smokers, and I can't exactly walk away. The smell doesn't make me nauseous, but it aggravates my sinus and asthma. And just smells really horrible to me. Same with my managers who smoke (more common with the one who smoked cigars).

It's easy to assume I don't frequent local bars because I don't drink. It's more because I can't handle the smoke (having actual smoke, rather than just the smell, will result in an asthma attack in under 10 minutes in an enclosed space...a bit more in outdoors, but still will happen if I'm within conversation distance regardless of where I am standing). My friends only know because when they light up, I have to go elsewhere.

If someone is smoking near me outside, I'll just move out of range. I'm not going to complain to them since they are in a designated smoking area (I will if they aren't). I also try to avoid walking past people who are smoking outside on campus. So...yeah, if you aren't close to me, you likely don't know I tend to avoid areas where smokers congregate and they I can have strong physical reactions to the smoke, and smell sometimes (in the case of a house full of smokers for 10+ years...yeah...even though no one was actively smoking I had to leave after half an hour).

[ForzaFiori]

As a sometimes smoker, here's my advice (it's kept my family from realizing I'm a smoker, though most of them also are and so are less sensitive to the smell)

If you can, buy a can of Ozium, or a similar product. I have no clue what is in the stuff, but it can get any smell out of anything, no matter how old, set in, or what caused it, and it leaves no smell behind. You spray it, there's a faint whiff of that "chemical-cleaner" smell, and then it's just gone, nothing. Bring it to class, and explain your problem. If he seems reluctant to change habits he as, offer to give his gi a quick spray. It would take 5 seconds, and one bottle of ozium would probably last like, til next year. it's that strong.

Also, on the subject of clean gi's at dojos: if the OP and the smoker in his class were to take their gi's out of the wash at the same time, put them on, and then drive to class, the gi's would be almost exactly as clean. Honestly, what is in your car will dirty your gi up more than the cigarette or two you smoke on the way to your dojo. Not everything that smells is dirty, and not everything dirty smells. It's generalizations that like that cause the huge amounts of hatred and anger between groups of people. In this case, the problem is the "faint hint of smoke=nasty dirty" idea that non-smokers have.

Not to say that smokers don't have their own problems to, but the above has been all around every thread that touches on smoking I've ever seen on this cite, while at least smokers vary in how we're asses.

[Don Julio Anejo]

It's also selection bias. If someone makes a thread and says smoke makes him sick, other people who have the same thing (me, for example... I can't breathe and start sneezing uncontrollably when near some types of cigarettes, still haven't figured out which ones) are more likely to respond.

Whereas in real life, you may know just as many people with the problem, but it's doubtful you're going to mention to every single one of them about your problem with smoking. Some you may know only in passing, like your professor or that girl at the coffee shop, with whom you occasionally exchange a few sentences but don't even count among acquaintances.

On the internet this problem doesn't exist.

PS: actually some smells are pretty damn hard to get out of clothing. Like whipped cream from when I was pied all over during a fundraiser... Stopped me from wearing Banana Republic jeans that I really liked just because they smell bad and it doesn't wash off... :frown: tobacco smoke is in many cases worse than that.