Should I get A Song of Ice and Fire?

[RationalGoblin]

So I like both epic and low fantasy, and enjoy dark stories, and complicated plots with flawed heroes and so forth.

I've also read the ASOFAF TV Tropes page more than once.

However, even after reading up as much as I can about the series without actually reading the books, I'm a bit wary of just how dark I've heard the series is, as from what I've heard, it's one of the few settings that is more grim and dark (grimdark?) than real life, and I get annoyed when a setting implies that real life is ALMOST as grim as it is, but then adds in a few random atrocities to be able to call itself worse.

Are the books worth it?

[Sneak]

Get it.

**** happens, and at the particular point in the history of the fictional setting that the books are set, there's a lot of **** happening.

But **** happens for a reason. It's not arbitrary ****. Sometimes you can even see the **** coming.

It's certainly much more GRIMDARK than my pampered life, but if you asked someone in the real War of the Roses, who knows.

But either way, I'd recommend that you get the first book (A Game of Thrones) and try it out. Books aren't that expensive, and if you're thinking this much and this hard about it, just try it.

The worst that could happen is you say "Meh, don't like it so much" and forget about it. No harm done.

And if you like it, great.

[Dr.Epic]

The Ralph Bakshi film?:smallconfused:

[Dienekes]

Yes, get it. It's a great series. Though I'm confused why you'd read through all the spoilers that make up the series before you read it, but ehh, whatever floats your boat.

I wouldn't call it so much Grimdark as it is depressing. There is good, and there are people who have normal, happy lives (given the roughly equivalent time period of course). The books really don't focus on them much though, and the main characters will go through hell and back. If they make a mistake (and they will, some more obviously than others) they will pay for it.

[Mx.Silver]

I've only read the first two, but they weren't bad. I kind of distanced myself from the series once it looked like it was heading into Robert Jordan Syndrome* territory though (the warning signs being when it was extended from a planned trilogy to a 4-book series, and then again to a 7-book series). Again not bad, but I wouldn't expect it to be done untilt the next decade. May also be a little over-hyped, although that seems to have died down a bit lately. Then again some of my complaints could probably be direct at the modern low fantasy genre as a whole (of which it's something of a poster child) so feel free to take that with a grain of salt.

*The tendancy for fantasy/science-fiction novelists to end-up extending a series to lengths far longer than was originally intended, or should have been intended.


The Ralph Bakshi film?
No. You're thinking of Fire and Ice (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fire_and_Ice_%281983_film%29).

[Psyren]

Yes.
Next question?




...Okay, I'll elaborate a little. Yes the books are dark, but there's lots of rays of hope. And while Man is the True Monster as you'd expect from a dark series, there is a Nameless Evil for them all to put aside their differences and unite against, in true heroic fashion. (i.e. whatever the hell is coming from Up North, beyond the Wall.)

The setting is low magic, but in the "we're about to rediscover some really cool and freaky things" sense, rather than the "magic is bad and you should feel bad for wanting to read about it" sense. (in short, trending up, not down.)

[Mx.Silver]

Can't believe I almost forgot my biggest gripe with the series: the author's continued, nay, insistant habit of spelling the word 'sir' as 'ser'.* No adaquate reasons for why Martin chose to do this have ever been given and as someone from a country that actually has knights, this irks me a bit :smalltongue:




*not coincidentally, also one of my biggest gripes with Dragon Age: Origins.

[Coidzor]

If you're still interested despite the sheer volume of rape that tvtropes says is in it, I can't think of anything else about it that would be a reason not to get it.

[Xondoure]

Totally worth it. Well, the waiting for the next one is arguable but otherwise seconding what everyone has already said.

[Winterwind]

Rather than answer, I'll cite the words of one of my favourite fantasy/science-fiction reviewers (Thomas M. Wagner, from www.sfreviews.net (http://www.sfreviews.net/)).

This is one sentence ripped from his review of the first part:

Dazzling in the scope of its legendry and in its heartfelt humanity, A Game of Thrones signals the onset of perhaps the most significant work of fantasy since Bilbo found the One Ring. True, that is a claim that critics and readers have made time and time again about virtually every fantasy saga to see print, but until now, in all honesty, it's been hyperbole. With A Song of Ice and Fire, it may well be true. This is one that will go beyond the status of bestseller into honest-to-goodness classic.Of course, he realizes how wrong he was when reviewing the third part:

The novels work not just because they are thrill-packed adventures rendered in painstaking detail, but because Martin is so good at conveying character that they have a universal human dimension that strikes at something fundamental. The reason Hamlet still has something to say after four centuries is because its hero is a powerfully conflicted individual whose actions, though morally troubling, are motivated by something we can all relate to though none of us is a medieval Danish prince: love for a parent and rage at the violation of something as sacrosanct as family. A Song of Ice and Fire has precisely that understanding of the basics of the human experience: family, home, security, trust, love. While Martin's battle scenes are jaw-dropping, what pulls at you from the inside is the tragedy of the Starks, their children separated across miles of war-torn landscape; the dysfunction of the Lannisters, among whom any semblance of familial warmth has been subsumed by avarice, ambition, and the naked lust for power. Martin isn't the heir to Tolkien's throne at all; he's after the Bard's, and he just might get it.He's not exaggerating here. He's perfectly serious, and I am strongly inclined to agree with him.

[Mx.Silver]

True, that is a claim that critics and readers have made time and time again about virtually every fantasy saga to see print, but until now, in all honesty, it's been hyperbole.
Funnily enough, I've heard very similar comments made in attempts to excuse such praise for those countless other fantasy sagas as well. I do hope that maybe one day the fantasy community will finally stop comparing everything to Tolkein and realise that there are other yard-sticks one can use - which don't even have to be fantasy - and that it's possible to praise something perfectly well referencing something else. Sadly, I doubt this is ever going to happen.


Martin isn't the heir to Tolkien's throne at all; he's after the Bard's, and he just might get it.
No. Just, no. Now, in fairness, I have not read the third book. However, based on the first two I can say that this comparison does not work at all unless you completely and utterly ignore Shakespeare's use, and indeed creation, of language. This is not exactly an insignificant detail, in fact there's a strong case that can be made that this is primarily what has set The Bard apart from other writers (the fact that his stories are still enjoyable today is not unique, and it's also worth noting that a fairly large number of his plays are not held in anywhere near the same regard as, say, Hamlet).



He's not exaggerating here. He's perfectly serious, and I am strongly inclined to agree with him.
I refuse to believe that anyone would use this statement as anything other than hyperbole. It's akin to comparing John Williams to J.S. Bach.

'Not being Shakespeare' is not really a criticism and making comparisons is just silly, even when dealing with a skilled writer (which Martin is).

[Thorcrest]

I must also agree with Thomas M. Wagner's reviews, but sometimes the Lannisters naked lust for power is more... how shall we say... simply, naked lust. :smalltongue:

Anyways, it's a great series, at least my third, if not second, favourite, that I'd recommend you to get. The wait for the next one can be a bit painful, but I suppose we must give the author the time he requires to finish what he wishes the book to be.

[Smiling Knight]

Yes yes yes yes yes. See all above comments.

[Zmflavius]

YES. A thousand times YES.

I wouldn't really call it more grim than real life, at least not in the middle ages. But really, it's more how almost all the admirable people die before book 4/7

[DomaDoma]

It's very well-written, but it will make you nigh injure yourself in frustration that characters' lives and the world are completely and totally awful, and you may not even get to see how it ends. If I were you, I would wait until A Dance With Dragons has a hard-and-fast publication date.

[BrainFreeze]

Get it, it is a well written series and will surprise you. The characters are have background and motives for what they do and are not one sided antagonists. At points though my Wife wanted to throw the books across the room as a character she just got attached to got killed off. It is interesting to read a series where noone has script immunity.

[Zaggab]

I'm actually going to disagree with mostly everyone so far and say "Don't read them"

Why? Because I'm starting to doubt that it will ever end, and it's so good that that just makes me crazy and mad. It's been 5 years since the last book, and the author doesn't seem to be finished anytime soon, in fact, he's more interested in doing the television show and getting lots of money. I think he has writers block (regarding ASoIF), and that since he's old and fat, he's most likely gonna die before he finishes it.

So, spare yourself the pain and don't read them before the series is finished, because otherwise you're gonna get involved in one of the greatest stories ever written (IMO), and then not be allowed to experience the ending, and everything that has been built up to. And then you will go crazy. An being crazy is kinda bad.

[comicshorse]

I've only read the first two, but they weren't bad. I kind of distanced myself from the series once it looked like it was heading into Robert Jordan Syndrome* territory though (the warning signs being when it was extended from a planned trilogy to a 4-book series, and then again to a 7-book series).

*The tendancy for fantasy/science-fiction novelists to end-up extending a series to lengths far longer than was originally intended, or should have been intended.


Ah I wasn't aware of this but it does explain why the last one was so over-long and slow in pace.
Yes I'd say the first three were well worth it. After that..........

[Closet_Skeleton]

I got it out of the library. So I can't really say "buy it" since I didn't.

[Axolotl]

I've only read the first book (so I can't comment on the series as a whole) but I would reccomend it if you like that sort of thing.

It isn't really grim or dark though, or at least no more so than the periods of history it's based on (in fact if anything it's slightly less dark than them) but I wouldn't call it happy.

People keep comparoing it to Tolkein but I don't think that's a very accurate comparison, the work it most reminds me of is I, Claudius.

[Brewdude]

It's one of the few series where each sequel is better than the last (with the exception of book 4, but meh, that diagnosis may change when 5 and 6 come out).

The main reason to avoid it is that reading it before you read other perfectly good series will ruin your enjoyment of them, as they will suddenly feel shallow and tame.

[Mx.Silver]

Ah I wasn't aware of this but it does explain why the last one was so over-long and slow in pace.
Yes I'd say the first three were well worth it. After that..........

It gets worse actually, when you realise that book 4 and the as yet unreleased book 5 were originally going to be the same book, but the manuscript was getting so long that the publishers wouldn't print it in one volume.
As a general rule of thumb, if you haven't managed to get more than about halfway through your story after having written over 3,300 pages* you may have a problem. In Martin's case this may stem from the fact that his series lacks a single over-arching plot to drive it along, coupled with the amount of viewpoint characters in the series.



*by way of contrast, the complete Lord of the Rings trilogy is about 1,100 pages long. War and Peace is a bit over 1,400 pages. The entire Harry Potter series stands at 3,407 pages.
For those wondering, The Wheel of Time currently stands at over 11,000 pages long, and is not yet considered 'complete'.

[RationalGoblin]

Hmm.. I've heard nothing but good things about ASOIAF, but on the other hand while I like dark fantasy, I question the realism of a world that I honestly can't see real-life people surviving in.

From what I've read about the series, I'm honestly surprised that the moral characters don't kill themselves! I hate when a series seems to throw atrocity after atrocity at you, making it even more depressing in real life.

For example, I've heard that it's supposed to be a fantasy re-telling of the War of the Roses. Well, as a history nut, I know that all wars (especially that one) had horrible people doing horrible things all the time, but it STILL probably wasn't as jam-packed full of depressing grimness as this series seems to be.

But despite that, it's one of the best? Then I'll read the first book, and offer my thoughts on it in a few months.

[Coidzor]

Hmm.. I've heard nothing but good things about ASOIAF, but on the other hand while I like dark fantasy, I question the realism of a world that I honestly can't see real-life people surviving in.

The amount of rape (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RapeIsASpecialKindOfEvil)it contains counts as a good thing you've heard about it? :smallconfused:

Because that's the main thing I've heard about it from tvtropes that's set it apart from the other fantasy novels' blurbs on there.

[RationalGoblin]

The amount of rape (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RapeIsASpecialKindOfEvil)it contains counts as a good thing you've heard about it? :smallconfused:

Because that's the main thing I've heard about it from tvtropes that's set it apart from the other fantasy novels' blurbs on there.

Well, no. I've heard that it has especially good writing for a fantasy novel; the rape is one of the things bugging me about the info I know about it. Sure, there was lots of that in history, but not to the extent that ASOIAF seems to have done it.

[Dienekes]

Well, no. I've heard that it has especially good writing for a fantasy novel; the rape is one of the things bugging me about the info I know about it. Sure, there was lots of that in history, but not to the extent that ASOIAF seems to have done it.

Huh? Rape was perfectly common spoils of war. The books show it fairly accurately, and disgustingly. Admittedly I don't know much about the War of the Roses, but it is definitely presented far less than say, the Russian invasion of Germany in WW2, or the Roman expansion and other classical wars.

Really, it doesn't sugar coat military victories. Which in some ways I agree with on principle as a way to de-glorify battle. It can get a bit squicky (more than a bit) but it strives for accuracy in its showing of atrocities. However its presentation of the usefulness of armor is wrong, but that's more or less par for the course in all fantasy.

[Marillion]

The amount of rape (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RapeIsASpecialKindOfEvil)it contains counts as a good thing you've heard about it? :smallconfused:

Because that's the main thing I've heard about it from tvtropes that's set it apart from the other fantasy novels' blurbs on there.

I'll admit I haven't read the books in a while, but off the top of my head the only instance of that that doesn't happen offscreen is


When Sandor kisses Sansa


And he stops before anything happens. Granted, there's a lot of HAWT SEX SCENES, and a lot of rape happens (offscreen/without detail) but nothing more than I expect was the case in medieval earth societies during wartime. :smallconfused:

Again, I haven't read the books in a while, but I don't think it was that bad.

And, it's definitely worth picking up, because under the grimdarkness (in my opinion) there's an undercurrent of hope that things can be different. It will be long, bloody and difficult, but the "good guys" can win.

[R. Shackleford]

The rape isn't that bad, in that I don't recall there ever actually being an actual depiction of one. There's several recounts of them, and more than one female character narrowly avoids one, but from what I remember, almost all of the sex scenes that end up being depicted are consensual and still nonetheless squicky. It's something the internet blows out of proportion, I think. "Rape and lemoncakes."

The story is pretty bleak, but remember that it's only about halfway done, and the second act of the story is about to begin if Dance ever gets done.

[Dienekes]

It's something the internet blows out of proportion, I think. "Rape and lemoncakes."

You're forgetting the fat pink mast.

That said, I do remember it being mentioned onscreen (briefly) in the Dany chapters when Drogo conquered a village. Though when looking at the cultures the Dothraki are based on, again, it's pretty tame.

[R. Shackleford]

You're forgetting the fat pink mast.

That said, I do remember it being mentioned onscreen (briefly) in the Dany chapters when Drogo conquered a village. Though when looking at the cultures the Dothraki are based on, again, it's pretty tame.

Fat pin- ugh... I half-wish I could forget.

It's been forever since I read AGoT. I should go back...

[The_JJ]

Go, read, be happy gobbo. Honestly it's not especially grimdark, it just pulls so few punches as far as the protagonists (and other viewpoint characters) are concerned. It keeps you on your toes, breaks the conventions surrounding plot armor. That's why it stands out, really.

[warty goblin]

Well, no. I've heard that it has especially good writing for a fantasy novel; the rape is one of the things bugging me about the info I know about it. Sure, there was lots of that in history, but not to the extent that ASOIAF seems to have done it.

It's not that it's grimmer than actual history so much as it shows the grimmness more than just about any other fantasy series out there, and does so in a fairly immediate way. It's pretty hard hitting about what goes on in a real war, but I'd hardly call it exaggerated, and very seldom does it feel like it's going into the nasty details just for the thrill of it.

And it'd be very, very hard for a book to have more rape in it than occurred in most historical wars.

[Forum Explorer]

I'm going to say no don't get it. Don't get me wrong its an amazing series, but there is a good chance that it won't be finished or worse will have a rushed and botched ending. And nothing is worse than a badly written ending. Honestly its the most important part of the book.

If it is compleated than definatly go pick it up. The grim darkness is there with anyone can die being very prelavent. The rape isn't that constant, mentioned alot but rarely more than a sentance describing the aftermath of a battle.

On the other hand the latest book was down right horrendous. They took all of the boring characters and plopped them in one long book. Almost none of the characters you've grown attached to are even mentioned let alone get any screen time. Than the most intreasting character, Arya, also does almost nothing the whole time. Honestly if the next book is like that I'm going to donate my copies of the books to a library and never mention the seriers again.

[R. Shackleford]

On the other hand the latest book was down right horrendous. They took all of the boring characters and plopped them in one long book. Almost none of the characters you've grown attached to are even mentioned let alone get any screen time. Than the most intreasting character, Arya, also does almost nothing the whole time. Honestly if the next book is like that I'm going to donate my copies of the books to a library and never mention the seriers again.


AFFC was essentially the shavings that got trimmed off when Dance got to be too long, which is odd considering that Dance has probably increased in size considerably in the last five years. Your the criticism is something almost everyone will agree on, and bafflingly, a lot of people can find things they like about Feast... though you'll be hardpressed to find anyone who liked the whole book.

I agree, if there's any reason to not read the series, it's Feast. The Cliffhangers established at the end of Storm create a level of hype that verges on Super Smash Bros. Brawl, and Feast doesn't deliver on any of them, and only manages to add a few that can't match up to what Storm left us to wait for...

[Lord of the Helms]

I'm actually going to disagree with mostly everyone so far and say "Don't read them"

Why? Because I'm starting to doubt that it will ever end, and it's so good that that just makes me crazy and mad. It's been 5 years since the last book, and the author doesn't seem to be finished anytime soon, in fact, he's more interested in doing the television show and getting lots of money. I think he has writers block (regarding ASoIF), and that since he's old and fat, he's most likely gonna die before he finishes it.

So, spare yourself the pain and don't read them before the series is finished, because otherwise you're gonna get involved in one of the greatest stories ever written (IMO), and then not be allowed to experience the ending, and everything that has been built up to. And then you will go crazy. An being crazy is kinda bad.

I kinda agree with this, though I wouldn't go so far as to saying it's one of the greatest stories ever written. Still good and entertaining, but yeah, it's pretty grimdark, and full of many many characters you want little more than to die horrible painful deaths (some do, some don't). In either case, I'd recommend checking again in five to ten years if the series is approaching being finished, because it's frankly quite unsatisfying to be waiting on and on for a story to continue and the author never even getting close. Just so we're clear here: It took Martin about five years to write the past book, A Feast for Crows, which covered only half of the characters he originally intended to include and did very little to actually advance their plotlines. The next book has been in the works since 2005 (when he said that it was "almost finished") and does not look close to coming out. He seems to be making up the story, or at least the largest parts of it, as he goes, and may be having writer's block on top of that, which does not make a good combination. In either case, waits of five years of more between the books in a series are not pleaseant to stomach to begin with. This is worsened by the fact that Martin has a huge affinity for inter-book cliffhangers rather than offering at least temporary conclusions to his plotlines at the end of a book, which is okay when you have the next book out and ready to read already, but intensely dissatisfying when it takes ages for the next one to arrive.

So yeah. Don't go there. Pick out other writers who bring out books regularly and finish their series, and stick with them instead, at least until Martin has begun working on the final book.

[Marillion]

I liked a feast for crows.

:smallfrown:

[warty goblin]

I liked a feast for crows.

:smallfrown:

So did I, particularly after the second reading. So far I'd say it's actually the second or third best in the series. A Game of Thrones is the top without a doubt, then I'd say either Storm of Swords or Feast for Crows, followed by Clash of Kings.

And I really don't understand the 'don't read it until it's done' folks. Is waiting for another book really that hard? Don't get me wrong, I've been waiting for Dance with Dragons as long as everybody else, and it'll be a day one buy for me when it does show up. It's not like its absence in any noticeable way decreases the quality of my life however. Probably increases it actually, since I can look forwards to at least one guaranteed good read at some point in the future, and I'm definitely glad I read the others without waiting.

[Forum Explorer]

So did I, particularly after the second reading. So far I'd say it's actually the second or third best in the series. A Game of Thrones is the top without a doubt, then I'd say either Storm of Swords or Feast for Crows, followed by Clash of Kings.

And I really don't understand the 'don't read it until it's done' folks. Is waiting for another book really that hard? Don't get me wrong, I've been waiting for Dance with Dragons as long as everybody else, and it'll be a day one buy for me when it does show up. It's not like its absence in any noticeable way decreases the quality of my life however. Probably increases it actually, since I can look forwards to at least one guaranteed good read at some point in the future, and I'm definitely glad I read the others without waiting.

Your milage may vary afterall. Personally I despised pretty much every character in Feast of Crows except Arya and I didn't really like the direction her plot seemed to be going.

Its not so much the waiting (though that does suck) its the idea that the books may never get finished due to Author death. At least for me. I pray it doesn't happen but if I had known the gap between books before I started reading I think I would have rather waited than get emotionally invested in the books.

[warty goblin]

Your milage may vary afterall. Personally I despised pretty much every character in Feast of Crows except Arya and I didn't really like the direction her plot seemed to be going.

Its not so much the waiting (though that does suck) its the idea that the books may never get finished due to Author death. At least for me. I pray it doesn't happen but if I had known the gap between books before I started reading I think I would have rather waited than get emotionally invested in the books.
Way I see it is this:

Either I hypothetically hold off on reading the books, or I do not. In either case, either Martin finishes the series before he dies, or he does not. This suggests the following breakdown.

1) I read the books as released.

a) Martin lives. I spend some time waiting. Mildly annoying at worst, pleasant anticipation at best, and I get to enjoy some superb fiction.

b) Martin dies. Sad, since he's a good guy and I like his work. However this doesn't diminish the enjoyment I got out of the first however many books.

2) To avoid disappointment, I don't read the books as released.

a) Martin lives. I'm a crown fool who, to avoid the extraordinarily mild discomfort of waiting a half decade or so for a book, denies himself the pleasure of reading said books and enjoying them in the here and now.

b) Martin dies. The only logical choice based on my assumption of not reading unfinished work is to never read them at all. Now I've cost myself the entire series, which strikes me as extremely stupid. The first however many books will still be enjoyable, well written and involving pieces of fiction. While it is disappointing that they won't be finished, not reading them seems a case of cutting off one's nose to spite the face.

If I'm inconsistent and read them post authorial mortem anyways, all I've done is denied myself the benefits of reading them for a long period of time, and still suffer the disappointment of the missing conclusion. Clearly I do not benefit in this case.

Parsing this option tree, it should be readily apparent that both possibilities for option 2 are negatives, while option 1 contains at worst a mild positive. Logically reading the books as released seems the only sensible course of action.

[Forum Explorer]

again in depends on your personality. I hate it when I get denied a conclusion to a series for whatever reason. So much so that I would have rather not started the series in the first place. Plus there are so many books that I'm trying to get right now that I can pick and choose which series to read because I don't have enough time and money to read all of them. So I try to stick to already compleated series when I can.

[DranWork]

Personally I have a grand Love Hate relationship with this series.

I love it because:
Never pulls punches
"low magic" style
more "realistic" with injuries and the like
3d characters
vivid and imaginative writing style.

I Hate it because:
My fav characters keep dying (damn you paper thin plot armour!!!)
Its so good that the length of time between each books release is starting to drive me crazy. Seriously he's meant to have finished that book years and years ago and yet there has been no release? Come on..

Personally I would recommend that you read it at a pace of a chapter per month. That should set you up to finish just as the new book is released :smallsigh:

[Gadora]

I'd hit the library. If you like it, you can buy a copy later. If you don't like it, you aren't out any money (assuming you return it on time), and don't even have to finish the book.

[Killer Angel]

Are the books worth it?

Short answer: yes, totally.

less short answer: the first three are a masterpiece, a Must Have (IMO, obviously)... sadly now Martin is dragging the story too much for my tastes, and schedule of books is disappointing.

[Dienekes]

I liked a feast for crows.

:smallfrown:

I've got to agree. Though I'm a rabid fanboy, so my opinion is to be taken with a grain of salt.

It helps if you look at it as the first book to the next section. It in a way reintroduces the setting (or at least looks at it through very different eyes). We get to see the landscape of Westeros through Brienne, which really fills out what the peasants are doing. We also get the up to date details on why Cersei is an idiot, and I personally love poking fun at house Lannister. Even the characters I despise (Jaime) are extraordinary well written, and their stories are interesting.

That's not to say that some of the criticism is inaccurate, it is slow, it does not address what is happening to some of the more popular characters. But, with a world of great characters like this is, it wasn't a problem for me.

[Lord of the Helms]

And I really don't understand the 'don't read it until it's done' folks. Is waiting for another book really that hard?

If I'm emotionally invested, then, to answer shortly, yes. It's easier for A Song of Ice and Fire because I disliked A Feast for Crows enough to pull out my funds to begin with, metaphorically speaking, and dropped it out of my "MUST HAVE AS SOON AS IT'S OUT!" list (which currently only really includes Dresden Files, Ciaphas Cain novels and the Wheel of Time Finale anyway) and into the "eh, can buy it sometime between the paperback release and the completion of the series, if nothing better is on my table". What's bad about waits with the ASOIAF books specifically (and A Feast for Crows in particular) is Martin's tendency to end so many of a book's plotlines on cliffhangers or otherwise in media res, and you're left without even a temporary conclusion for years.

[Eldan]

It's pretty good, I like it.

I'll leave the reviews to more eloquent people, I'm feeling laconic today.

[DomaDoma]

very seldom does it feel like it's going into the nasty details just for the thrill of it.

Are. You. Serious.

[Winterwind]

Are. You. Serious.I fully agree with warty goblin here. It goes into the nasty details when it is meaningful to connecting what the character in question is going through at the moment, or making the full horror of what's happened evident; not once did I feel it did it just for the lulz though.

[Renegade Paladin]

However its presentation of the usefulness of armor is wrong, but that's more or less par for the course in all fantasy.
This is actually the single, solitary thing that bugged me about the whole series. In Tyrion Lannister's trial by combat at the Eyrie, the knight set against his champion wears field plate, and is depicted as so greatly slowed by it that he cannot catch his opponent, rapidly tires, and is easy prey. I trust it is superfluous to point out that this is nonsense.

At any rate, I'm not sure why anyone agonizes over whether or not to buy a book series as popular as A Song of Ice and Fire; the library will have it or easily be able to get it.

[Dienekes]

This is actually the single, solitary thing that bugged me about the whole series. In Tyrion Lannister's trial by combat at the Eyrie, the knight set against his champion wears field plate, and is depicted as so greatly slowed by it that he cannot catch his opponent, rapidly tires, and is easy prey. I trust it is superfluous to point out that this is nonsense.

That's one. I try to rationalize this by saying that Vardis was already getting old, and Bronn was freakin' Bronn. There are also several accounts of swords cutting through plate, which just make me shake my head though.

At least GRRM admits that all he really knows about medieval combat he learned from DnD. So it's not like he's claiming he has the right of it. Still a bit annoying though.

[Thorcrest]

Again I'll say get the books, but I'll just address a few things brought up in this thread:

First: The Rape. Ok, the book tries to be realistic, but it really isn't overly depicted, I can think of only one scene where it is the focus and that is when the Hound and some of his men have a go at the Innkeeper's daughter... other than that, yes, rape is mentionned, or described in a sentence or two, you should be mature enough to handle it. I was 13 when I read the first four books and it didn't bother me, so I'm sure if you're an adult you'll be fine. (Note: Most 13 year olds probably aren't mature enough to read it, nor do I endorse their reading it unless they are aware that it is there, or at least mature enough (which I suppose is based on knowing that person)) (Note 2: There is a fairly large amount of consentual (arrgh brain can't spell, looks right enough) sex though!)

Second: A Feast for Crows. I didn't have a problem with the book. Yes, it was a bit slower. Yes, it focused on a different set of characters than the "favourites" for most people. Yes, there is a reason, which I don't think has been mentionned. GRRM decided that, as the manuscript was lengthening significantly, he wanted to divide the book into two: one that focused on characters of the... whatever the southern half of the world is called (sorry, it's been about 4-5 years since I've read them), and another that would focus on all other characters exclusively (so just think of all the fun you'll have only reading your "favourite" characters!).

Three: ... ... I had something, but fatigue has washed over my thought!

I say at least get it from a library/friend... but I endorse it's purchase!

[warty goblin]

This is actually the single, solitary thing that bugged me about the whole series. In Tyrion Lannister's trial by combat at the Eyrie, the knight set against his champion wears field plate, and is depicted as so greatly slowed by it that he cannot catch his opponent, rapidly tires, and is easy prey. I trust it is superfluous to point out that this is nonsense.


In regards to that, remember that except for the very end, the fight description is kept fairly loose, so it's hard to figure out exactly how long it took. And a younger, fitter and taller man outlasting an older, more heavily burdened enemy is pretty reasonable over even a fairly short length of time. It's not just the weight, dissipating heat is extremely difficult in full harness, particularly with a close helmet, which means that after ten or fifteen minutes Egan was probably suffering from a serious case of heat exhaustion. Between two equal swordsmen, the armor should have been a deciding factor in Egan's favor, but Bron also happened to be a vastly superior fighter; given that he controlled the initiative for the entire battle he would almost certainly have won no matter what Egan wore.

Don't get me wrong, the technical details of the fight aren't correct - a cut to an armored elbow would never have penetrated* - but the overall scope was pretty reasonable.

*Delivering a wound to the elbow however is a completely reasonable tactic. It should have been a thrust, probably from halfsword, but the elbow is one of the few points of vulnerability on an armored man.

[R. Shackleford]

That's one. I try to rationalize this by saying that Vardis was already getting old, and Bronn was freakin' Bronn. There are also several accounts of swords cutting through plate, which just make me shake my head though.

At least GRRM admits that all he really knows about medieval combat he learned from DnD. So it's not like he's claiming he has the right of it. Still a bit annoying though.

I guess it isn't shocking at all to know that Old Man GRRM played DND.

I'd also reccommend the audiobooks if you can find them. Mr. Avers and Mr. Dotrice are very good readers.

[CurlyKitGirl]

Short? Yes.
Long? If you're still not sure after basically having discovered most of the important plots and character developments take it out of the library or buy a copy dirt-cheap online. You can get them for a penny on amazon.


Can't believe I almost forgot my biggest gripe with the series: the author's continued, nay, insistent habit of spelling the word 'sir' as 'ser'.* No adequate reasons for why Martin chose to do this have ever been given and as someone from a country that actually has knights, this irks me a bit :smalltongue:




*not coincidentally, also one of my biggest gripes with Dragon Age: Origins.

And this was the first thing I decided to quote. :smalltongue: Says all you need to know about me doesn't it?
The 'ser' is accurate for the time upon which the book is based. Granted the Wars of the Roses occurred in between 1450s and 1485 (or longer depending on whether you agree the de la Poles and the Pretenders (all of them) battles counted as a continuation of the Wars or not) so it would coexist alongside the EMdn and Mdn English 'sir'.
It's all about the Great Vowel Shift (and here's where I wish I had my GVS notes to hand), but basically even now the 'er' (pronounced as 'ear' in wear) sound could be pronounced as 'ir' (as in 'sir') or a couple other ways depending on spoken dialect and the prevalence of the south-eastern dialect through the written form.
It was mainly for rhyming of course, but even in prose documents you come across more 'ser's than 'sir's. Examples: look no further than Malory's Morte d'Arthur, and to top it off it was written (okay, compiled and edited) around the time of the Wars of the Roses as well.


Huh? Rape was perfectly common spoils of war. The books show it fairly accurately, and disgustingly. Admittedly I don't know much about the War of the Roses, but it is definitely presented far less than say, the Russian invasion of Germany in WW2, or the Roman expansion and other classical wars.

Really, it doesn't sugar coat military victories. Which in some ways I agree with on principle as a way to de-glorify battle. It can get a bit squicky (more than a bit) but it strives for accuracy in its showing of atrocities. However its presentation of the usefulness of armor is wrong, but that's more or less par for the course in all fantasy.

It's pretty damn realistic. What Martin does miss out is that in these conflicts (providing they were relatively local) the noble whose land had been ruined by the battle/whatnot could claim recompense from the noble who'd done the ruining. He could also do the same for the number of workers injured, but that was a lot harder to prove, or at least not mentioned scarcely at all in the documents I looked at.

[Knaight]

Between two equal swordsmen, the armor should have been a deciding factor in Egan's favor, but Bron also happened to be a vastly superior fighter; given that he controlled the initiative for the entire battle he would almost certainly have won no matter what Egan wore.

Don't get me wrong, the technical details of the fight aren't correct - a cut to an armored elbow would never have penetrated* - but the overall scope was pretty reasonable.


Regarding that fight, Bronn choosing light armor is actually fairly realistic. Plate isn't really that encumbering if you are trained with it. Bronn is a common mercenary however, he presumably isn't trained to fight in full harness, and as such would have been at a disadvantage had he tried. Had Egan actually been any good that training would have been all the advantage he would need, but he wasn't half the swordsman Bronn was, and only got a lucky hit in when taking an extremely stupid tactic that Bronn wouldn't have reasonably expected. The idea that your opponent is going to take orders on how to fight from an untrained civilian with questionable sanity normally doesn't warrant consideration.

The one I don't get is Oberyn Martel choosing to wear as light armor as he did, and bothering with a shield. Using a nice, big spear is a very natural way to counter Gregor's reach, but the mobility of a long spear held in one hand leaves something to be desired. Furthermore, the wide grip used on a spear defensively would make parrying much easier, and having both hands makes punching through mail a lot more reasonable. The slow acting poison and attempted killing blow I get, though a fast acting poison would have been another idea, and the attempted killing blow was just dumb (and shown to be).

[Mx.Silver]

Short? Yes.
Long? If you're still not sure after basically having discovered most of the important plots and character developments take it out of the library or buy a copy dirt-cheap online. You can get them for a penny on amazon.



And this was the first thing I decided to quote. :smalltongue: Says all you need to know about me doesn't it?
The 'ser' is accurate for the time upon which the book is based. Granted the Wars of the Roses occurred in between 1450s and 1485 (or longer depending on whether you agree the de la Poles and the Pretenders (all of them) battles counted as a continuation of the Wars or not) so it would coexist alongside the EMdn and Mdn English 'sir'.
It's all about the Great Vowel Shift (and here's where I wish I had my GVS notes to hand), but basically even now the 'er' (pronounced as 'ear' in wear) sound could be pronounced as 'ir' (as in 'sir') or a couple other ways depending on spoken dialect and the prevalence of the south-eastern dialect through the written form.
It was mainly for rhyming of course, but even in prose documents you come across more 'ser's than 'sir's. Examples: look no further than Malory's Morte d'Arthur, and to top it off it was written (okay, compiled and edited) around the time of the Wars of the Roses as well.


Yeah, thought someone would bring this up. See, by this logic he should be using 'time-period accurate' spellings and grammar for everything, which he's obviously not, making this inconsistent. So yeah, still no good reason for using what is now an incorrect spelling beyond 'looking kewl'.

This is even assuming we give the 'historical accuracy' argument any weight at all, which is extremely debateable considering that the books are set in a fantasy world to begin with (which would not have followed the same linguistic processes anyway).

[Dienekes]

Yeah, thought someone would bring this up. See, by this logic he should be using 'time-period accurate' spellings and grammar for everything, which he's obviously not, making this inconsistent. So yeah, still no good reason for using what is now an incorrect spelling beyond 'looking kewl'.

This is even assuming we give the 'historical accuracy' argument any weight at all, which is extremely debateable considering that the books are set in a fantasy world to begin with (which would not have followed the same linguistic processes anyway).

I think it's more looking different than looking cool. He is trying to bring up the concept of knighthood obviously, but without the more modern strings attached. Honestly, when I here sir my initial thought is of an Elizabethan nobleman or at least wealthy individual who talks to everyone with "good sir" or what have you. Ser more or less rids me of that concept.

Again it's just the feel of the word, like when Tolkien used lightening instead of the more standard lightning to add flavor to a passage, and offer different connotations. GRRM does these slight changes with a few bits of language, mostly names. Yohn, Eddard, Catelyn, and so on.

[Mx.Silver]

I think it's more looking different than looking cool.
Tom-ay-to, tom-ah-to. It's still the same thing as the instance of some writers to spell the word 'magic' as 'magick', 'magik', 'majik' etc. It's certainly no more necessary, and comparably annoying.



He is trying to bring up the concept of knighthood obviously, but without the more modern strings attached.
Even if he is trying to do that (again, debateable) there's still no reason one can't paint a new picture with an existing spelling. Introducing your alternate spelling leads us to the same point as the aforementioned 'magic' alterations. Or spelling 'vampire' as 'vampyre' or some such nonsense.

[Talanic]

I feel that the series is overrated.

Don't get me wrong. It's great, but I find myself asking sometimes, "What was the point of that last scene? What did it add to the story?" Or, in one case, "What was the point of that story arc?" Specifically, the lady knight who was
apparently hung in her last scene - I don't recall her (or anyone with her) accomplishing a dang thing, and her survival chances are extremely low.


That said, I'm going to be all over the next book when it comes out.

[warty goblin]

Regarding that fight, Bronn choosing light armor is actually fairly realistic. Plate isn't really that encumbering if you are trained with it. Bronn is a common mercenary however, he presumably isn't trained to fight in full harness, and as such would have been at a disadvantage had he tried. Had Egan actually been any good that training would have been all the advantage he would need, but he wasn't half the swordsman Bronn was, and only got a lucky hit in when taking an extremely stupid tactic that Bronn wouldn't have reasonably expected. The idea that your opponent is going to take orders on how to fight from an untrained civilian with questionable sanity normally doesn't warrant consideration.

The one I don't get is Oberyn Martel choosing to wear as light armor as he did, and bothering with a shield. Using a nice, big spear is a very natural way to counter Gregor's reach, but the mobility of a long spear held in one hand leaves something to be desired. Furthermore, the wide grip used on a spear defensively would make parrying much easier, and having both hands makes punching through mail a lot more reasonable. The slow acting poison and attempted killing blow I get, though a fast acting poison would have been another idea, and the attempted killing blow was just dumb (and shown to be).


I agree with pretty much your entire first paragraph, except for the final sentence. Vardis Egan was sworn to do what Lysa ordered; she might not have been a warrior, but to seriously abuse the modern term, she was certainly his commanding officer in the chain of command. Besides which, at that point in the fight a sudden attack was really the only chance he had; winning through defense is never a good strategy, and between exhaustion and his wound, he couldn't hope to maintain that much longer either.

In the second case, Oberyn Martell was simply an arrogant idiot. Never forget the possibility of stupidity.

[readsaboutd&d]

Probably among my top 5 fantasy lists and one of the few series where I still wouldnt regret it if the author died midway (and anyway Martin isnt that old and the wait for dance isnt even that long compared to the pace of other authors).
Also, its darkness is greatly exagerrated especially by tv tropes. I mean its not David Eddings but its not worse than real life. A lot of the main characters are fairly heroic and if you pay attention a lot of the nasty characters suffer karma. Also, nothing nasty is very detailed (most of it is actually related rather than described). But then, tropers also apparently believe that spongebob squarepants can terrify adults (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/HighOctaneNightmareFuel/SpongebobSquarepants)

[warty goblin]

Probably among my top 5 fantasy lists and one of the few series where I still wouldnt regret it if the author died midway (and anyway Martin isnt that old and the wait for dance isnt even that long compared to the pace of other authors).
Also, its darkness is greatly exagerrated especially by tv tropes. I mean its not David Eddings but its not worse than real life. A lot of the main characters are fairly heroic and if you pay attention a lot of the nasty characters suffer karma. ]

Put another way, it's dark for fantasy - because fantasy tends to pull its punches at every possible turn - but for a work of fiction it's pretty run of the mill in terms of horrible things happening.

[Fifty-Eyed Fred]

Probably among my top 5 fantasy lists and one of the few series where I still wouldnt regret it if the author died midway (and anyway Martin isnt that old and the wait for dance isnt even that long compared to the pace of other authors).
Also, its darkness is greatly exagerrated especially by tv tropes. I mean its not David Eddings but its not worse than real life. A lot of the main characters are fairly heroic and if you pay attention a lot of the nasty characters suffer karma. Also, nothing nasty is very detailed (most of it is actually related rather than described). But then, tropers also apparently believe that spongebob squarepants can terrify adults (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/HighOctaneNightmareFuel/SpongebobSquarepants)

Yeah, tropers are essentially pansies for the most part. The series strikes me as far more realistic than 'grimdark'.
Regarding 'Ser': I think it's really rather pretentious, but it's nothing I find excessively annoying. Just a niggle, perhaps. That's how I feel about the similar-but-different names as well, but I can take it from the text that it's merely an attempt to distance the world from our own, which I suppose I can accept.

[DomaDoma]

Put another way, it's dark for fantasy - because fantasy tends to pull its punches at every possible turn - but for a work of fiction it's pretty run of the mill in terms of horrible things happening.

I read a Harry Bosch book not too long ago. Concrete Blonde. Fairly standard gritty crime thriller. A shorter time ago, it was the Millennium Trilogy. Grittier, and much less standard. They still fell short of:


-The government employing a sadistic raping mass murderer to keep people in line, while the people in question are really more concerned with said government's bloodline legitimacy than its raping mass murder. (At least they also care that they're starving...)
-The most-rooted-for resistance employing a similar kind of guy, only with shrewdness and a cannibalistic son nobody can touch.
-Characters fumbling around hopelessly, accomplishing neither their goals nor anything else in particular except earning themselves blindness, hangings, and that next book-pounding near-miss with the people and goals they want to get to.
-Everything heroic being either a lie or extremely fleeting.


You want a fantasy that doesn't pull its punches, the Kingkiller Chronicle seems a good horse to bet on. You want a fantasy that kneecaps you and drives you into the rusty nails and broken glass littered all over the asphalt, Ice and Fire is the way to go.

And I still can't stop reading.

[0Megabyte]

I feel that the series is overrated.

Don't get me wrong. It's great, but I find myself asking sometimes, "What was the point of that last scene? What did it add to the story?" Or, in one case, "What was the point of that story arc?" Specifically, the lady knight who was
apparently hung in her last scene - I don't recall her (or anyone with her) accomplishing a dang thing, and her survival chances are extremely low.


That said, I'm going to be all over the next book when it comes out.

Yeah, the thing about that? She certainly isn't going to die. In fact, it seems more and more obvious to me that the reason for her pointless search was to get Brienne there, with unCat and Friends(TM), because what happens next is probably going to be really cool. Why else spend that much time setting it up? Brienne gets the hallowed place of "the viewpoint character who gets to watch the really interesting character work: She's gonna get to be to unCat what Cat was for her son.

[warty goblin]

I read a Harry Bosch book not too long ago. Concrete Blonde. Fairly standard gritty crime thriller. A shorter time ago, it was the Millennium Trilogy. Grittier, and much less standard. They still fell short of:


-The government employing a sadistic raping mass murderer to keep people in line, while the people in question are really more concerned with said government's bloodline legitimacy than its raping mass murder. (At least they also care that they're starving...)
-The most-rooted-for resistance employing a similar kind of guy, only with shrewdness and a cannibalistic son nobody can touch.
-Characters fumbling around hopelessly, accomplishing neither their goals nor anything else in particular except earning themselves blindness, hangings, and that next book-pounding near-miss with the people and goals they want to get to.
-Everything heroic being either a lie or extremely fleeting.


You want a fantasy that doesn't pull its punches, the Kingkiller Chronicle seems a good horse to bet on. You want a fantasy that kneecaps you and drives you into the rusty nails and broken glass littered all over the asphalt, Ice and Fire is the way to go.

And I still can't stop reading.

Right, but the context of the story is important here. Remember, the Millennium trilogy at least (can't speak to the other haven't read it) is set in a functioning, modern, first world nation. It would seriously stretch suspension of disbelief if the government did purposely employ sadistic mass murdering rapists as weapons against the opposition.. ASoIaF's setting is closely analogous to the European middle ages, where killing, burning and generally ruining the peasantry was an accepted norm of warfare. Hell there are plenty of places today where such people are used for essentially the same purpose.

Let me put it this way: A Song of Ice and Fire is pretty much the only fantasy I've ever read that doesn't treat a war as a chance to write cool action scenes and kill dehumanized, faceless bad guys, and instead shows it destroying people's lives in every conceivable way. From the history, political science and other things I've read, this is by far the more honest view.

[DomaDoma]

And do my other three points also get lumped under the "war is hell" umbrella? Maybe the second, but when the faction you're most likely rooting for has a guy like that as its linchpin, it makes you wonder why you're invested in the fate of the world at all, all given alternatives being terrible. I'm also doubtful that just living under King Joffrey would be much better.

[warty goblin]

And do my other three points also get lumped under the "war is hell" umbrella? Maybe the second, but when the faction you're most likely rooting for has a guy like that as its linchpin, it makes you wonder why you're invested in the fate of the world at all, all given alternatives being terrible. I'm also doubtful that just living under King Joffrey would be much better.

Wait, we're supposed to root for Tywin Lannister? Because I certainly missed that part.

And quite a lot of non-fantasy material is about people not obtaining their goals

[Smiling Knight]

Tywin does have many admirable qualities. He did rule the realm with justice and fairness for around 17 years, after all. Unfortunately, he's a bastard.

[Dienekes]

Wait, we're supposed to root for Tywin Lannister? Because I certainly missed that part.

And quite a lot of non-fantasy material is about people not obtaining their goals

I believe he's referring to the Bolton family. The problem with his argument being, unlike Tywin, Robb didn't order the murdering that Roose and Ramsay are up to, and actively tried to stop it when he was made aware. Unsuccessfully. Very, very unsuccessfully.

[RationalGoblin]

So I went and got a Game of Thrones; and most of you are right; I'm two chapters in, and it doesn't seem overly dark. I've read more brutal fanfiction than this.

It does seem to be vaguely standard low fantasy, and though it feels to me that GRRM is a bit haphazard and distracted, it mostly seems like good writing so far.

And yeah, tropers are a bit squeamish.

But going back to A Game of Thrones, I do like the prologue and first chapter; both show a sense of grimness (not grimdark) that feels very realistic: I especially like the scene with the direwolf puppies.

[Elhann]

So I went and got a Game of Thrones; and most of you are right; I'm two chapters in, and it doesn't seem overly dark. I've read more brutal fanfiction than this.

So you've read the first of Bran and Catelyn's chapters... give it time. (and no, I don't think it is THAT dark, and the worst things -such as anything with the Mountain that Rides- are not described as they happen, but more in a "so and so happened then" way)

Anyways, good choice picking up the book(s). Hope you enjoy it.

[Mathis]

Ah yes, two chapters in. I remember when I was just two chapters in as well. How young and innocent I was. How young and innocent you probably are, but give it time. Oh yes, give it time.

[Zmflavius]

So I went and got a Game of Thrones; and most of you are right; I'm two chapters in, and it doesn't seem overly dark. I've read more brutal fanfiction than this.

It does seem to be vaguely standard low fantasy, and though it feels to me that GRRM is a bit haphazard and distracted, it mostly seems like good writing so far.

And yeah, tropers are a bit squeamish.

But going back to A Game of Thrones, I do like the prologue and first chapter; both show a sense of grimness (not grimdark) that feels very realistic: I especially like the scene with the direwolf puppies.

Just wait until the second and third books, which cover the war of the Six Kings

[RationalGoblin]

A few more chapters in (in the Ned chapter where King Robert throws a party at Winterfell), and let me make one thing clear; I read spoilers because I like to know the interesting parts, but I can literally turn those memories off when I actually read a book, unless I've spoiled myself the same day I'm reading.

So the first Dany chapter and the first Jon chapter (along with faint recollections of the warnings of the tone of the book) are getting me a bit suspicious, and of the vague remembrance I have about the Joffrey spoilers, I'm getting a bit paranoid.

All and all, pretty good, even excellent so far, if I ignore the annoyingly modern swearing randomly placed alongside the traditional medieval-speak.

Hey, hold up; didn't one guy do a let's read of Twilight and Dune? Perhaps I should do that. I'm mostly going to paraphrase anyway, so unless it's a horribly bad move, I might just do that..

[DomaDoma]

Hey, I'm all ears!

[Zmflavius]

Yeah, same here!

Except Lord Seth was actually doing a read through of Eragon, not Dune (I think).

[RationalGoblin]

Yeah, same here!

Except Lord Seth was actually doing a read through of Eragon, not Dune (I think).

I think he attempted to do a Dune one, but I might just be confused.

Anyway, I'm going to be starting such a thread in about an hour or so, but I'm afraid having a "Let's Read" title might be confused with one of Lord Seth's threads. "Let's Leer", maybe? :smalltongue:

No, I kid, I kid.

Anyway, if any of you want to offer a (non-spoiler) summary of the background of ASOIAF to set things up for new readers/interested folks like myself, that'll be great. If not, I'll just use the TV Tropes background summary.

[Dienekes]

Old Nan: My stories? No, my little lord, not mine. The stories are, before me and after me, and before you, too.

[deep voice]In a world, where winter can last a life time, and death is always in the air. One man must fight to survive and save his kingdom from certain destruction.[/deep voice]

Ned: Winter is coming.

[deep voice]One man, on the path to solve the murder of his mentor. Uncovers secrets that could topple an empire.He faces men without honor, code, nor creed[/deep voice]

Ser Jorah: Your grace...Rhaegar fought valiantly. Rhaegar fought nobly. Rhaegar fought honourably. And Rhaegar died.

Tyrion: Those are brave men, let's go kill them.

Jon Arryn: The seed is strong.

Llyana: Promise me Ned.

[deep voice]Against a tide of corruption and evil, he strives to find the truth. He chooses to fight.[/deep voice]

The Red Viper: Do you know who I am?
Gregor: Some dead man.

Jaime: If their are gods, why is the world filled with pain and suffering?
Catelyn: Because of men like you.
Jaime: There are no men like me, only me.

Sandor: Might be you are knights after all. You lie like knights, maybe you murder like knights.

Robert: I smell bacon.

Jon: Stick them with the pointy end.

[deep voice]How far will he go, to save his family, or to destroy his country?[/deep voice]

Ned: What you suggest is treason.
Petry: Only if we lose.

Hodor: HOODDDORRRR!

Cersei: I shall wear this as a mark of honor.
Robert: Where it in silence or I will honor you again.

Petyr: Life is not a song sweetling, you'll learn that one day, to your sorrow.

[deep voice]This is, A Game of Thrones.[/deep voice]

Bran: His name is Summer.

Arthur Dayne: Now it begins.
Ned: No, now it ends.

Ok that unoriginal and not particularly funny joke got out of hand.

[Snow Leopard]

I hope the TV series will have enough viewers in order to have four seasons . The books are very well-writter and the atmosphere is SO real, moreover I like the POV structrure.
P.S. Finish the book George!

[Eldan]

Well, any trailer starting with "In a World" has to be good. Then we can have a sequel completely unrelated to the books where all the dead characters come back as zombies, lead by a King of the North who fought his way out of hell.

[Closet_Skeleton]

lead by a King of the North who fought his way out of hell.

Grr...

You just spoiled what Cold Hands is for me.

[Eldan]

:smalltongue:

He is also Daenerys' father and had a direwolf puppy named Rosebud.

[Kellhus]

You think Martin's GrimDark(tm)? You guys should try Abercrombie or Bakker.

As to the swearing, it's not supposed to be realistic, it's supposed to feel realistic. Really, modern curse words are minor issue if you feel the need to nitpick about language. I mean how is it that in a medieval world where most people never leave their villages, that the wildlings beyond the Wall and Dornishmen still speak the same language?

Anyway, it's like Deadwood. They couldn't have the cowboys running around shouting "What in tarnation." When they needed to convey that these guys were brutal killers who could be just as dangerous and uncivilized as a modern gangster, they couldn't have them sounding like Yosemite Sam.

[RationalGoblin]

You think Martin's GrimDark(tm)? You guys should try Abercrombie or Bakker.

As to the swearing, it's not supposed to be realistic, it's supposed to feel realistic. Really, modern curse words are minor issue if you feel the need to nitpick about language. I mean how is it that in a medieval world where most people never leave their villages, that the wildlings beyond the Wall and Dornishmen still speak the same language?

Anyway, it's like Deadwood. They couldn't have the cowboys running around shouting "What in tarnation." When they needed to convey that these guys were brutal killers who could be just as dangerous and uncivilized as a modern gangster, they couldn't have them sounding like Yosemite Sam.

Yeah, I know. It's just that you're trained to EXPECT the same language across entire continents. The modern-style swearing just seems a bit... off.

Anyway, here's the Let's Read (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=183784) thread. Feel free to comment on it if you want to.

[Terraoblivion]

Except for the fact that most people in both ASoIaF and the real middle ages did leave their villages. The amount of traveling villagers do in both cases is quite well-documented. By the 15th century for example most of the grain eaten in the low countries and Britain was imported from the great steppes of Russia and Ukraine, similarly looking at the tax records from the castle of Gottorp in Schleswig shows that there was a brisk trade of horses, cattle and assorted goods across the border between Denmark and various German territories.

Looking beyond trade, there is plenty of indication that most villagers married people from other, nearby villages rather than from their own. The general tendency of cities to have a high enough mortality rate to be incapable of replenishing themselves and thus requiring a steady influx of people from the countryside in order to not die out. The concept of the market day, pretty much also proves that most villagers at the very least had to travel to the nearest city fairly regularly. It was required simply in order to uphold the basic necessities of life that you left the village. And of course there were religious pilgrimages, war and various disasters that made people travel too. ASoIaF really does go far enough to show that is the case in Westeros too.

None of this suggests that a continent-wide language is needed. After all Europe didn't have one since the fall of Rome and even before that it was more like half a continent than a full one.

[warty goblin]

You think Martin's GrimDark(tm)? You guys should try Abercrombie or Bakker.

Read Abercrombie, struck me as more grimdull than grimdark.


As to the swearing, it's not supposed to be realistic, it's supposed to feel realistic. Really, modern curse words are minor issue if you feel the need to nitpick about language. I mean how is it that in a medieval world where most people never leave their villages, that the wildlings beyond the Wall and Dornishmen still speak the same language?
Agreed about the swearing. It's less jarring to me than reading a bunch of made-up swear words, and it's definitely the sort of world where people swear.

[Irbis]

For the OP: Black Company is better dark fantasy. Much better. At least first few books. But then, this is good, too.


Can't believe I almost forgot my biggest gripe with the series: the author's continued, nay, insistant habit of spelling the word 'sir' as 'ser'.* No adaquate reasons for why Martin chose to do this have ever been given and as someone from a country that actually has knights, this irks me a bit :smalltongue:

Try living in country where this means 'cheese' :smallsigh:


However its presentation of the usefulness of armor is wrong, but that's more or less par for the course in all fantasy.

Such as? :smallconfused:


The one I don't get is Oberyn Martel choosing to wear as light armor as he did, and bothering with a shield.

Wasn't that a buckler? Worn on forearm?

Anyway, blame his pseudospartan country.


Hey, hold up; didn't one guy do a let's read of Twilight and Dune? Perhaps I should do that. I'm mostly going to paraphrase anyway, so unless it's a horribly bad move, I might just do that..

Doo eet! :smallyuk:

[warty goblin]

Such as? :smallconfused:


It gets cut with swords. In reality you don't bother cutting somebody in armor plate, all you'll accomplish is mildly annoying them and seriously damaging your sword. Instead you stab from a half-sword, use a dagger and/or wrestle - with the latter seeming to be a very likely conclusion to the fight. There's quite a few techniques in the fechtbucher for wrestling with a man in armor, a lot of which involve hyper-extension of joints and other nasty ways of causing lots of damage.

One thing that never ceases to irritate me about fantasy's take on combat is how they always seem to think they need to make stuff up in order to be brutal enough. This strikes me as rather like bringing a bucket of water to the Pacific Ocean because it isn't wet enough. Even my fairly cursory study of medieval western martial arts has revealed such wonderful techniques as winding your blade against the underside of your opponent's arms in order to cut at them from above, kneeing them in the groin, breaking their spine over your leg, cutting their throat from the bind, punching them in the face with your quillions and stabbing them in the palms of their hands.

It's not a showstopper, but it's annoying.

[comicshorse]

Read Abercrombie, struck me as more grimdull than grimdark.


Each to their own, I loved his work

[warty goblin]

Each to their own, I loved his work

What can I say, I read his first book and was overcome with a profound lassitude towards continuing onwards. Probably because I couldn't really say I felt like anything had happened in said book.

[Dienekes]

For the OP: Black Company is better dark fantasy. Much better. At least first few books. But then, this is good, too.

I must respectfully disagree. I reaf the first two, I still haven't gotten through the third, just lost interest. I was sort of annoyed by his tendency to show character personality by telling the reader the characters personality. (Ex. The Lieutenant did not like Raven. I must have read this sentence a dozen times, yet still have no examples to show such dislike) Still if that's your thing it's cool.



Such as? :smallconfused:

We kind of gave examples when it came up on page two. Warty does a great recap.


Anyway, blame his pseudospartan country.

There is nothing about Dorne that is remotely like Sparta. There is a definite Mediterranean influence, but Spartan? How do you figure?

To Warty. I like Abercrombie. Not my favorite but he was a quick read that I thought was enjoyable. That said, the first book was the worst, it just introduced slightly cliched characters and showed us around the plot while several of the characters given face time weren't really all that likeable. But I kept reading because I liked his writing style. I still think he can write a pretty good action sequence which I find hard to convey in literature. The next two books were definite improvements as they focused on Glokta (my favorite character), and turning those cliches on their head in interesting ways. Still, I'll be the first to admit that the main storyline meanders a bit, and so I can understand why many would dislike it.

[Kellhus]

It gets cut with swords. In reality you don't bother cutting somebody in armor plate, all you'll accomplish is mildly annoying them and seriously damaging your sword. Instead you stab from a half-sword, use a dagger and/or wrestle - with the latter seeming to be a very likely conclusion to the fight. There's quite a few techniques in the fechtbucher for wrestling with a man in armor, a lot of which involve hyper-extension of joints and other nasty ways of causing lots of damage.

It's not a showstopper, but it's annoying.

I don't recall a single incident from asoiaf where a sword cuts through plate without the assistance of magic.

[Knaight]

I agree with pretty much your entire first paragraph, except for the final sentence. Vardis Egan was sworn to do what Lysa ordered; she might not have been a warrior, but to seriously abuse the modern term, she was certainly his commanding officer in the chain of command. Besides which, at that point in the fight a sudden attack was really the only chance he had; winning through defense is never a good strategy, and between exhaustion and his wound, he couldn't hope to maintain that much longer either.

In the second case, Oberyn Martell was simply an arrogant idiot. Never forget the possibility of stupidity.

Regarding the final sentence, remember that what matters is what Bronn expects. It makes perfect sense for Egan to follow her orders, but Bronn wouldn't expect her to be giving them to begin with, let alone orders that emerge from a serious error in judgment as to how the fight is going.

As for Oberyn Martell, he was an arrogant idiot. Whats interesting is that he managed to maintain that attitude with all the combat experience he has, and let it seep into his fight. Jaime Lannister is an arrogant idiot (or was, before the whole hand incident), but you don't see him getting careless in a fight. He takes some risks, but they are reasonable.

[VeisuItaTyhjyys]

Not really grimmer than real life. It probably seems like that to people who didn't live real life in the middle ages, sure; it's easy to say "Oh, being essentially livestock to be rent asunder for the amusement of those above you wasn't as bad as these books make it out to have been," when one isn't really in that possition at all.

[warty goblin]

I don't recall a single incident from asoiaf where a sword cuts through plate without the assistance of magic.

Bron cripples Ser Verdis Egan's elbow with a cut to a bit of 'lobstered steel,' which is described as 'crunching'. I at least interpret that as a cut penetrating plate steel.

One of Khal Drogo's bloodriders also penetrates Ser Jorah's armor at the hip with a cut, although he was only protected by mail there. I'm unsure exactly what an Arahk is, but it's still pretty unlikely one could do that with a sword-like weapon.

Neither of these weapons are, insofar as I'm aware, magical.

[Zmflavius]

I'm unsure exactly what an Arahk is, but it's still pretty unlikely one could do that with a sword-like weapon.

My impression is that an arakh is shaped rather like a sickle, since IIRC, AGoT describes it as being half scythe and...half sword? Something like that.

[Eldan]

So, a heavily curved blade. Perhaps a bit like a Kopesh. (http://www.google.ch/images?hl=de&source=imghp&biw=1280&bih=831&q=kopesh&gbv=2&aq=f&aqi=g6g-s1g3&aql=&oq=) At least, that's what the description made me think of. Probably a slashing weapon.

[Irbis]

It gets cut with swords. In reality you don't bother cutting somebody in armor plate, all you'll accomplish is mildly annoying them and seriously damaging your sword. Instead you stab from a half-sword, use a dagger and/or wrestle - with the latter seeming to be a very likely conclusion to the fight. There's quite a few techniques in the fechtbucher for wrestling with a man in armor, a lot of which involve hyper-extension of joints and other nasty ways of causing lots of damage.

Normally, that's true, but we don't have Valyrian steel swords to judge how good they are.


One thing that never ceases to irritate me about fantasy's take on combat is how they always seem to think they need to make stuff up in order to be brutal enough. This strikes me as rather like bringing a bucket of water to the Pacific Ocean because it isn't wet enough.

That's what I liked in Black Company, very little invented stuff.


I must respectfully disagree. I reaf the first two, I still haven't gotten through the third, just lost interest. I was sort of annoyed by his tendency to show character personality by telling the reader the characters personality. (Ex. The Lieutenant did not like Raven. I must have read this sentence a dozen times, yet still have no examples to show such dislike) Still if that's your thing it's cool.

Well, I read it only in my primary language, but I found his style fast-flowing and witty, a good example of adventures of such mercenaries in that era.

Wait, you read two and a half books and never saw their dislike for Raven? Especially after he deserted? What? They disliked him in book one, even going for threats, much less in book two and three.

You know, the biggest problem with Black Company was it should have been collected in three volumes, sized about as big as Martin's books, that way the story wouldn't have so much cliffhangers and would be a lot more enjoyable (though, then, third book would have been a bit weaker than the first two).


We kind of gave examples when it came up on page two. Warty does a great recap.

About this recap, wasn't the guy getting tired in armour, like, 60 years old? :smallconfused:


There is nothing about Dorne that is remotely like Sparta. There is a definite Mediterranean influence, but Spartan? How do you figure?

Besides attitude, climate, choice of weapons and armour, usage of copper, and a lot of other things? :smallconfused:

Ok, Spartan more like how fantasy authors imagine them, not how they really were (See: 300, for example) but still, close enough.

[Spiryt]

Normally, that's true, but we don't have Valyrian steel swords to judge how good they are.


It's not about "goodness" or not of the sword, it's about what can physically happen when you whack the surface of plate with object like sword.

Cutting it's surface is pretty much impossible. Crumbling it and thus severing it's continuity is not that unlikely at all, but again, that would be about striking really hard, not quality of the sword.

[Winterwind]

Besides attitude, climate, choice of weapons and armour, usage of copper, and a lot of other things? :smallconfused:The climate, choice of weapons and armour and usage of copper are all Mediterranean aspects, not ones that are unique to Sparta. I can't say anything about the "lot of other things", because I have no idea what they are supposed to be. As for the attitude and, the most important aspect to consider that you don't even mention, the way their society is organized, it's nothing like Sparta. Nothing. Not even in the slightest. If this was Sparta, Prince Doran would long have been thrown off a cliff, for starters. Their society is clearly just as medieval as that of the rest of the Seven Kingdoms, rather than having an unhealthy fixation with war. Their nobles are just that, nobles, who enjoy the luxury of their life, rather than being pure warriors living in spartan conditions (so exemplary they became proverbial in our age!), and not all of them are warriors at all. There is nothing indicative of them being significantly more warlike than the other Seven Kingdoms, most certainly not that their society is specifically geared towards creating perfect warriors. Lastly, they do not rely on plundering their neighbours constantly, but seem to do just fine with agriculture and trade.

If you want to find a Sparta-analogy in the Song of Ice and Fire, the Ironmen would be a much, much better fit. Of course, they are actually the analogy to Vikings, but at least their society bears some resemblance to Sparta, unlike Dorne.

[Dienekes]

Normally, that's true, but we don't have Valyrian steel swords to judge how good they are.

There's also (not in the book proper of course) a combatant that specializes in cleaving through metal crests with his normal blade and flinging it into the audience. Robert went into battle with pure metal antlers on his head when he waded into combat, and Jaime wore gold plated armor. Some of this could easily have been in ceremonial armor, but no, they use them for battle. Along with a battle hammer so heavy a healthy and fairly fit man couldn't even lift it.

That's not really how things work.


Wait, you read two and a half books and never saw their dislike for Raven? Especially after he deserted? What? They disliked him in book one, even going for threats, much less in book two and three.

I am referring specifically to the character of the Lieutenant. Though maybe this is translation error, but the author has a habit of telling personality traits that don't really come up ever in the books.


About this recap, wasn't the guy getting tired in armour, like, 60 years old? :smallconfused:

That is how we try to rationalize that Bronn lasted longer in armor that is actually more cumbersome to wear. It doesn't explain how the armor functioned and was so easily broken though.


Besides attitude, climate, choice of weapons and armour, usage of copper, and a lot of other things? :smallconfused:

Ok, Spartan more like how fantasy authors imagine them, not how they really were (See: 300, for example) but still, close enough.

Attitude? Alright, the average Spartan was recorded as being: extremely respectful to superiors and the elderly, a soldier who follows orders, practicing a lifestyle of discomfort. No one of Dorne has shown anything like that.

Sparta's political structure was also completely different, most notably the lack of ephors, the lack of a civilian council, the lack of a second king, and most glaringly a lack of slaves, and the lack of the agoge.

Dorne is also a desert, while Sparta was on part of the most fertile land in Greece, actually that's often argued as one of the reasons why Sparta was able to pull off the kind of culture it had without collapsing.

The use of copper is rather trivial, and I'll be honest I don't remember what the Spartan's used for currency off the top of my head anyway.

So what we're left with is, Dorne uses spears like Sparta. Well so do a lot of cultures. Hell you could probably make a stronger case for the Unsullied to be a fantasy inversion of Spartan ideology than that Dorne is like Sparta.


Prince Doran would long have been thrown off a cliff, for starters.

Ehh, Doran developed gout later in life. If you make it past the agoge and survive the wars you're pretty much left to join the civilian council if you're smart enough even if you can no longer be a soldier. You did your time.


Lastly, they do not rely on plundering their neighbours constantly, but seem to do just fine with agriculture and trade.

They also didn't go raiding after conquering the Messenians. They had their slaves set up to do all the important stuff like feed them. They also had the perioeci for trade and some flow of cash. Surprisingly, Sparta actually went to wars a bit below the average of the other Greek poleis. Mostly because they were afraid of leaving their slaves, that vastly outnumbered them, behind without an army hanging over their head.

[Closet_Skeleton]

I assumed it was something like either a scimitar or a Khopesh (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khopesh).

[warty goblin]

It's not about "goodness" or not of the sword, it's about what can physically happen when you whack the surface of plate with object like sword.

Cutting it's surface is pretty much impossible. Crumbling it and thus severing it's continuity is not that unlikely at all, but again, that would be about striking really hard, not quality of the sword.

And crumpling the surface is not something one can really do with a sword. The balance and geometry are simply incorrect. It may be possible with some of the truly huge two-handed blades that appeared in the late Medieval or early Renaissance periods, but a) Bron certainly was not wielding one of those, and b) they were used more like a polearm than a sword anyways.

(Incidentally the other thing the scene gets wrong is Bron's sword being razor sharp. You really don't need an edge this sharp - in fact having it so probably makes it easier to damage - since a draw cut with the tip will have sufficient power behind it to cause massive damage while being much blunter.)

[Whammydill]

I imagined the arakh to be a large kukri, or a falcatta or some such.

[DomaDoma]

You know, the medieval warfare might be accurate enough for the Middle Ages, but you'd think in Westeros in the autumn, it would be common sense to refrain from destroying the crops of the lands you are about to subjugate. Seriously, even Theon Greyjoy should have gotten that memo.

[Knaight]

You know, the medieval warfare might be accurate enough for the Middle Ages, but you'd think in Westeros in the autumn, it would be common sense to refrain from destroying the crops of the lands you are about to subjugate. Seriously, even Theon Greyjoy should have gotten that memo.

Theon is a moron who has never seen winter, doesn't value the area much at all, and is prone to rash decisions. Besides, there is trade and the winters aren't pointed out as all that horrible down south, let alone off the continent.

[Xondoure]

Theon is a moron who has never seen winter, doesn't value the area much at all, and is prone to rash decisions. Besides, there is trade and the winters aren't pointed out as all that horrible down south, let alone off the continent.


Now that's just silly all the evidence is that without serious trade from Dorne and the Tyrell estates everyone will starve to death. That's not just the North but the midlands as well. Honestly it'll be a miracle if any pesants survive.

[DranWork]

I am so disapointed with Theon, he was my fav character and the greyjoys where my fav house. THen he had to go and do something rather numpty and all :smallmad:

[Dienekes]

I am so disapointed with Theon, he was my fav character and the greyjoys where my fav house. THen he had to go and do something rather numpty and all :smallmad:

I'm more curious how he got to be your favorite character, he came off as a complete asshat to me from the moment he laughed and kicked a dead man's head to when Ramsay finally punched him in the face.

[Brewdude]

You know, the biggest problem with Black Company was it should have been collected in three volumes, sized about as big as Martin's books, that way the story wouldn't have so much cliffhangers and would be a lot more enjoyable (though, then, third book would have been a bit weaker than the first two).


Your wish is granted (well, if you think of the last two books as a single book split in two).

Chronicles of The Black Company (http://www.amazon.com/Black-Company-Chronicles/dp/0812521390/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1295469972&sr=8-1)
The Books of the South (http://www.amazon.com/Books-South-Tales-Company-Chronicles/dp/0765320665/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1295469972&sr=8-3)
The Return of the Black Company (http://www.amazon.com/Return-Black-Company-Glen-Cook/dp/0765324008/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1295469972&sr=8-4)
The Many Deaths of the Black Company (http://www.amazon.com/Many-Deaths-Black-Company/dp/0765324016/ref=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&qid=1295469972&sr=8-6)

[DranWork]

I always like the idea of a noble being held against his will in a strange land due to the actions of his father. He basically had to suck up to the people that he hated for years and years then he goes home and gets abused by his father (awesome scene btw) then decided that its time for revenge... then becomes a numpty.
I also have the typical fan love for Sandor, Tyron and Bronn, never much liked Robb or the Stark children in general. Eddard was awesome. Liked how Jamie changed during the books.