Sorcerer spells [3.5] [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

gbprime

2011-01-13, 10:34 AM

Decent list. I'd recommend Confusion over Enervation, myself.

Are you looking at feats and prestige classes as well? If so, may I recommend Searing Spell out of Sandstorm? (Adds 1 level to any fire spell, but the spell then IGNORES fire resistance, making Scorching Ray universally useful.) Also, if you want survivability, you might consider using your 9th level feat on Minor Shapeshift and spending a 4th level slot on Polymorph. (You can then use a free action every round to give yourself temporary HP equal to your caster level.)

And every sorcerer should consider the bloodline feats from Dragon Mag Compendium. One of those (all you're allowed) will add 1 spell known per spell level around a theme. (Air, Fire, Celestial, etc) Pick the one you like for the 1 or 2 spells you really like. Air Bloodline, for example would get you Obscuring Mist, Gust of Wind, Windwall, and Shout as spells known and would later give you Telekinesis, Control Winds, et al.

Project_Mayhem

2011-01-13, 10:56 AM

But Enervation is sweeeeet!

Also Polymorph is totally banned or I'd be on it. Searing spell and the dragon feats sound good, but I'll need DM approval

Greenish

2011-01-13, 11:30 AM

Hyfigh

2011-01-13, 11:40 AM

Solo's guide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=74801) is a great place for ideas. His spell list is fantastic. The guide is thurough, and should help you throughout your career.

Tokuhara

2011-01-13, 11:48 AM

Quick question on spells, while I'm thinking about it: Can you ignite a Grease spell, with say a cone of fire?

Greenish

2011-01-13, 11:53 AM

Quick question on spells, while I'm thinking about it: Can you ignite a Grease spell, with say a cone of fire?RAW says nothing about it, and SC has a 2nd level spell that works like Grease except that it can be set to fire.

Tokuhara

2011-01-13, 11:56 AM

RAW says nothing about it, and SC has a 2nd level spell that works like Grease except that it can be set to fire.

I just thought flaming grease would make an ideal battlefield control

kme

2011-01-13, 12:42 PM

What would I change.

lvl1:Lesser Orb of Acid is nothing special. Magic missile is better in almost every way.
lvl2:Alter Self can be useful, but if you want to use it only for disguise, better pick a hat of disguise. It affects your cloths too, which is a big problem for alter self. If you drop it, web or cloud of bewilderment are good choices.
lvl3:Slow is unnecessary, you already have glitterdust to target will saves. Haste will be stronger in many situations and it is good to have some buffs instead of all offensive spells. Otherwise, pick some fort or ref targeting spell, stinking cloud or fireball (you cannot blast without this or something similar, single target spells won't cut it, especially if they require a range touch) from core.
Wind Wall is very situational, not worth a spell known. If you are paranoid, pick 2-3 scrolls, it's a no save spell.

In general, it is nice if you have at least one spell for each save. Pick heighten if you are worried about save DCs. One feat I would greatly recommend is sculpt spell. It will significantly improve your grease, glitterdust and later tentacles. It also combos well with some of the other choices that I mentioned (web, cloud of bewilderment, stinking cloud, fireball).

Project_Mayhem

2011-01-13, 12:57 PM

Needs moar dragon!

Namely, Wings of Flurry (RotD) is an excellent blasty spell: 1d6/level damage (untyped, uncapped!), decent AoE, ref save or dazed. Wings of Cover from the same is almost broken defensive spell. They're 4th and 2nd levels, respectively.

Both of those spells failed to get approval unfortunately

What would I change.

lvl1:Lesser Orb of Acid is nothing special. Magic missile is better in almost every way.
lvl2:Alter Self can be useful, but if you want to use it only for disguise, better pick a hat of disguise. It affects your cloths too, which is a big problem for alter self. If you drop it, web or cloud of bewilderment are good choices.
lvl3:Slow is unnecessary, you already have glitterdust to target will saves. Haste will be stronger in many situations and it is good to have some buffs instead of all offensive spells. Otherwise, pick some fort or ref targeting spell, stinking cloud or fireball (you cannot blast without this or something similar, single target spells won't cut it, especially if they require a range touch) from core.
Wind Wall is very situational, not worth a spell known. If you are paranoid, pick 2-3 scrolls, it's a no save spell.

In general, it is nice if you have at least one spell for each save. Pick heighten if you are worried about save DCs. One feat I would greatly recommend is sculpt spell. It will significantly improve your grease, glitterdust and later tentacles. It also combos well with some of the other choices that I mentioned (web, cloud of bewilderment, stinking cloud, fireball).

1.) I wasn't sure about magic missile. It was considered - I might swap it out.
2.) Alter Self is brilliant. I'm using it for the +8 natural armour thanks :smalltongue:
3.) Yeah I'd forgotten about the whole different saves thing. I've got a fort AOE and a Will AOE. Fireball sucks though right?

And yeah - I took metamagic specialist and am human, so I'm going to take as much metamagic as I can

satorian

2011-01-13, 01:06 PM

On Magic Missile vs. Orbs... yes. The 4th level orb spells are great, and are wonderful metamagic fodder. Not so the 1st level ones. I'd go with magic missile. 9th level is kind of a sweet spot for it. You might end up switching it out. Probably not, though.

Alter Self is an excellent spell to be abused. Keep it, but only if your dm will allow you to gain all the neat stuff that comes with it. DR/flight/etc. If he lets you turn into an avariel, you don't need to burn 3rd level spells yourself to fly and may consider giving up Fly.

Wings of Cover and Flurry. Yes.

Enervation is sweet. But remember, with all those rays, you are going to want archery feats, which sucks. You should be picking neat feats from races of the dragon. Consider Silverbrow human as a race. Consider subbing your familiar out for either the racial sub level in Races or for metamagic.

Project_Mayhem

2011-01-13, 01:19 PM

I'm waiting on an email from my DM, before I decide on alter self.

And I'd feel a bit jammy taking an obscure subrace for purely mechanical reasons. It's like all those water orc melee builds.

Aaand, I'm pretty sure I can't use races of the dragon.

Greenish

2011-01-13, 01:21 PM

Fireball sucks though right?It's serviceable for it's purpose - clearing out massed weak mooks.

For a sorcerer I might look for something more flexible, though fireball has certain old school charm.

gbprime

2011-01-13, 01:23 PM

3.) Yeah I'd forgotten about the whole different saves thing. I've got a fort AOE and a Will AOE. Fireball sucks though right?

Fireball doesn't suck, no. It's part of a complete breakfast, so to speak, and you have that covered with a Fort-blasty spell and a Will-blasty spell. Fireball as a Reflex-blasty spell complements those nicely, allows you to auto-counterspell incoming Fireballs should you ready an action to do so (it's SO common, bad guys will use them against you, guaranteed), and lends itself very nicely to the aforementioned Searing Spell metamagic feat.

ericgrau

2011-01-13, 01:30 PM

Common question. Google search spell list such as "wizard spell list site:www.giantitp.com" or "sorcerer spell list site:www.giantitp.com". It's the same either way, only difference is that sorcs would only use a wizard's general purpose spell list not spells that a wizzy would only swap in on ocassion. Beware of common misconceptions telling you to pick shadow spells (they suck hard, you don't need "more versatility" when you can know as many general purpose spells as a wizard can prepare) or all blasty spells (you shouldn't have all of any one kind of spell, it's redundant and a waste of spells known)

As for fireball it's awesome sauce for mopping op mobs. Think about it, large AoE. 3-4 targets is a total of 30-40d6, more if empowered or etc., and it stacks with your allies efforts to mop up their dwindling HP. Even as the most common resistance fire resistance is fairly uncommon, and you can always switch spells when it does happen. Especially as a sorc who can blow all his 3rd level spells per day on something else. I can see getting a low number of damage spells if you want, especially single target where the above does not apply, but you should have at least 1 and fireball is a great choice there.

EDIT: Oh ya. Another difference is that sorcerers benefit more from situational metamagic than wizards like heighten spell, still spell and maybe silent spell because they can apply them spontaneously when desired (and not when not desired). Extend spell for low level buffs is better on a 3,000 gp metamagic rod. Other good metamagic is still good for sorcs, though they get shafted on quicken unless you get the PHB 2 feat.

Shadowleaf

2011-01-13, 01:35 PM

Beware of common misconceptions telling you to pick shadow spells (they suck hard, you don't need "more versatility" when you can know as many general purpose spells as a wizard can prepare) or all blasty spells (you shouldn't have all of any one kind of spell, it's redundant and a waste of spells known)
Shadow Evocation is awesome if you build for it. They're more than useful if you do not. They don't suck hard at all.

ericgrau

2011-01-13, 01:52 PM

Maybe if you can get it 120% real with shadowcrafter cheese. But changing all those no saves, hard to remove spells into a will save, can remove is baaaaaad. Or even spells with a save, now get 2 saves and 1 level lower. You really don't want a lower level on damage spells, and you really don't want 2 saves on conjurations. It's very weak for something you don't even need, because your known list is just as long as a wizard's general purpose prepared list. There's really know reason for these spells to be related to the word "sorcerer". There is a tiny handful of utility options, better for a wizard who doesn't have to keep the spell prepared, but damage, battlefield control, etc. are much weaker with shadow spells.

gbprime

2011-01-13, 01:59 PM

Shadow Evocation is awesome if you build for it. They're more than useful if you do not. They don't suck hard at all.

Shadow Evocation gives the illusion (pun intended) of versatility. When in reality, a sorcerer doesn't NEED versatility, (s)he needs POWER. Pick a small handful of "I want to kill people" spells and apply metamagic to them so that they always work. (Searing Spell as an example again, one of my favorites) Then you use the rest of your spells to fill in the buffing/debuffing roles your party needs.

Yes, you may get only 3 to 5 spells per spell level, but once you add in wands, spellstaves, and a bloodline feat, that's all you NEED. Unless you're going to specialize in those shadow spells so that they always work, don't bother.

valadil

2011-01-13, 02:00 PM

You'll have to wait a level, but Wall of Stone is fantastic and would satisfy your want of a reflex save based spell. It's nice on a sorc because it's just one spell but has so much versatility. Use it with a save to take one enemy out of the combat. Draw a line through the battlefield to separate several enemies for a couple rounds. Or build bridges and other utilities.

Another good damage spell to consider is Melf's Unicorn Arrow. The damage is rather high and I think it's force based. It can push enemies around. IIRC it's third level.

Tvtyrant

2011-01-13, 02:01 PM

Besides, the blast spell you really want to use Shadow stuff for is Disintegrate for nuking undead, and you do not get it :(

On the other hand, the things you summon can still use their own spells, so picking Fiends to summon gets you extra spells as normal.

gbprime

2011-01-13, 02:03 PM

You'll have to wait a level, but Wall of Stone is fantastic and would satisfy your want of a reflex save based spell. It's nice on a sorc because it's just one spell but has so much versatility. Use it with a save to take one enemy out of the combat. Draw a line through the battlefield to separate several enemies for a couple rounds. Or build bridges and other utilities.

Wall of Force is even better. It doesn't have those out of combat uses, but it's pretty impervious. And it's also invisible, meaning your enemy wastes one extra round figuring out that there's a wall there in the first place.

And I'm a big believer in stopping charging cavalry by getting them to run into an invisible barrier at top speed. Hilarity. :smallamused:

kme

2011-01-13, 02:16 PM

Shadow spells are unreliable. They are only good for utility depending on how your DMs rules replicating stuff such as contingency or phantom steed that usually requires you to disbelieve your own spell.

The big difference between wizards and sorcerers spell selection is that wizard wants to pick spells that are only meant to be cast once in single combat. Sorcerer on the other hand can afford picking those "brute force" spells since he can always decide to cast a certain spell more then once. Blasting spells and all stackable spells fall in that category. Enervation for example, you cast it once on a BBEG, 2 negative levels not enough? Cast again, 5 not enough? 7 will be. Wizard usually cannot afford to prepare a single spell 3 times.

That's why fireball is good, it can be applied to almost any situation and if cast enough times it will do job. Of course, you want to avoid wasting unnecessary slots, but having the option is always good.

Keld Denar

2011-01-13, 02:18 PM

Wall of Force is also vertical only and 2D, which means you can't scuplt it around a foe without 4 seperate castings, and you can never use it to make a lid or floor. Its only really good in close quarters underground where you can anchor it to other surfaces. Wall of Stone is great because you can encapsule someone fairly easily with just one casting, taking them out of the fight for as long as it takes them to escape.

ericgrau

2011-01-13, 02:20 PM

Ya wall of force has got to be my favorite battlefield control spell, or at least one of my favorites. My first battlefield control sorcerer had both though, because wall of stone also lets you make bridges (or other horizontal barriers) and embattlements. A later lower level caster got wall of ice because it's even more versatile but as you get more and more versatile the walls get weaker and weaker. Wall of ice merely delayed foes for a round with its low HP total and zero hardness.

I've never ever, however, been able to encapsulate someone with a wall of stone despite much time spent looking for good opportunities. They get a reflex save if you make the wall too tight, plus it's not really worth it to trap only 1 foe in a thin destructible wall. If it's only 1 foe I might use a resilient sphere, and even then I didn't usually think it was worth it. You're more likely to trap 1 or preferably multiple foes on one side of a room or a corner with wall of force (or a straight wall of stone out of the foe's reach, but that's not curved now is it). If battlefield control is your goal then wall of force is best. The others merely have other minor side uses.

EDIT: Btw, both become wall of maybe if you shadow them whereas the real spells are reliable and in the case of wall of force almost unstoppable.

Asheram

2011-01-13, 02:31 PM

Wall of Force is even better. It doesn't have those out of combat uses, but it's pretty impervious. And it's also invisible, meaning your enemy wastes one extra round figuring out that there's a wall there in the first place.

And I'm a big believer in stopping charging cavalry by getting them to run into an invisible barrier at top speed. Hilarity. :smallamused:

You want hilarity? ;) Invisible spell and prismatic wall... Muhahahaha.

gbprime

2011-01-13, 04:44 PM

You want hilarity? ;) Invisible spell and prismatic wall... Muhahahaha.

I like. :smallamused:

But I try never to subject my opponents to anything that might result in plane shifting them. They're much harder to loot that way. :smallwink:

ericgrau

2011-01-13, 05:04 PM

Kind of a mix of both. This is what I have at the moment.

Level 1: Grease, Charm Person, Silent Image, Benign transposition, Lesser Orb of Acid

Level 2: Glitterdust, Alter Self, Invisibility, Scorching Ray

Level 3: Slow, Fly, Wind Wall

Level 4: Evards Tentacles of Forced Intrusion, Enervation

Solid list mostly. I'd stick with enervation if you like it. Normally I don't like single target debuffs because the target might save, but not with enervation. Confusion likewise hurts others around the target, so it isn't bad either. Wind wall is pretty lousy, especially on a sorcerer who can't switch it based on the current adventure. Unless your DM likes to use lots of archers. The rest of the time it's a wasted spell known. Haste, sleet storm, fireball, and flame arrow are some other good options. Charm person is ok on NPCs and related tricky tactics but weak in combat.

I think you're already at the point where you'll have more spells than you can fit into a combat, so it's time for more level 1-2 non-combat spells. Alter self, invisibility and silent image are already great there. You might also like false life, feather fall (combat spell but doesn't eat your standard), see invisibility or resist energy.

nedz

2011-01-13, 05:05 PM

Quick question on spells, while I'm thinking about it: Can you ignite a Grease spell, with say a cone of fire?

What you want is Incendiary Slime: Level 2 from CMage. Its like Grease only its also incendiary.

What you want, as a sorc, is one spell per level which you can spam.

Also spells which target different saves - obviously.
And something to cut through SR.
And something which targets an individual and has no save.
Spells which have multiple uses are also good, at least at low level.

Choosing most of these from one school allows you to pump your save DCs with Spell Focus, and Greater Spell Focus. Tricky to do this though.

Oh and the rest of your spells are for flavour:smallsmile:

Draz74

2011-01-13, 05:45 PM

Re: your desire for a Reflex battlefield control spell: Grease actually is pretty decent for that, if you also pick up Sculpt Spell. Sculpted Grease takes a L2 slot and is no longer pitifully small.

Also, I'd swap out Fly for Phantom Steed. At Level 12, if not now. (At that level, a Phantom Steed can indeed fly.) Much longer duration.

Jack_Simth

2011-01-13, 06:11 PM

Kind of a mix of both. This is what I have at the moment.

Level 1: Grease, Charm Person, Silent Image, Benign transposition, Lesser Orb of Acid

Level 2: Glitterdust, Alter Self, Invisibility, Scorching Ray

Level 3: Slow, Fly, Wind Wall

Level 4: Evards Tentacles of Forced Intrusion, Enervation
You've got three Will Save or Lose spells (Charm Person, Glitterdust, Slow), but not Reflex Save or Lose spells, and no Fort save or Lose spells (you also have your no-save spells, and your no SR spells). You might consider trading a few of them out - Stinking Cloud in place of Slow, perhaps, and Web in place of Scorching Ray (Evards will take care of damage, usually, and Enervation lets you reach out and touch someone for the pain when you need to).

Oh yes, and grab Heighten Spell as a feat. Surprisingly useful for a Sorcerer, as it keeps the lower level save-or spells from becoming irrelevant due to relative declining save DC at higher levels.

ShneekeyTheLost

2011-01-13, 07:14 PM

I'd switch out Wind Wall for Stinking Cloud, personally. Fort save or Loose. Goes well with your Glitterdust and Slow (will save or loose) and Grease (Reflex save or loose). Wind Wall is only marginally useful if you have hordes of archers. Otherwise a very sub-par and nitche spell.

I'd also approve of Lesser Orb of Acid, due to ignoring SR and being a ranged touch attack, so you can apply certain other things to it. I don't remember the damage progression, but I thought it ended out higher than MM did...

kme

2011-01-13, 08:01 PM

Lesser orb of acid reaches a maximum of 5d8 damage at level 9, it is also a range touch attack. Magic missile is 5d4+5 (only 5 less on average) but it autohits, works against incorporeal and deals basically irresistible damage.

When you consider that most of the time you want to use one of those spells is when you want finish a wounded opponent, that touch attack becomes pretty detrimental (usually with and extra -4 to hit). The no SR part of the lesser orb is pretty much irrelevant since the effect is so pitiful anyway. Better just cast haste and watch, your effectiveness would basically be unchanged.

The only time I would consider lesser orbs would be in a build that uses energy gestalt feat.

nedz

2011-01-13, 08:15 PM

I'd switch out Wind Wall for Stinking Cloud, personally. Fort save or Loose. Goes well with your Glitterdust and Slow (will save or loose) and Grease (Reflex save or loose). Wind Wall is only marginally useful if you have hordes of archers. Otherwise a very sub-par and nitche spell.
This is good because they are almost all Conjurations, so you can ramp your DCs.
Try Web and Stinking Cloud though: for a Reflex/Fort lockdown combo.:smallsmile:

I'd also approve of Lesser Orb of Acid, due to ignoring SR and being a ranged touch attack, so you can apply certain other things to it. I don't remember the damage progression, but I thought it ended out higher than MM did...

Mmm, MM always hits though. YMMV

ShneekeyTheLost

2011-01-13, 08:32 PM

This is good because they are almost all Conjurations, so you can ramp your DCs.
Try Web and Stinking Cloud though: for a Reflex/Fort lockdown combo.:smallsmile:

Mmm, MM always hits though. YMMV

Web is good, but he's already got a solid list of 2nd level spells, it would be hard to choose which one to give up. Also, keep in mind that Web requires something to anchor it to, so it may not always be available in every situation.

As far as MM vs Lesser Orb, there's something to be said for either one. MM auto-hits, Lesser Orb negates SR, does slightly more damage, and can have Energy Substitution applied to it so that you can hit in different flavors. YMMV.

jumpet

2011-01-13, 11:05 PM

faceroll

2011-01-14, 12:11 AM

Regarding MM and autohit. I actually consider this weaker than making an ranged touch attack roll. If you can make an attack roll, then you can critical and attack someone you can't see (with a miss chance of course). Further touch attacks generally get easier and easier as you advance.

A 5d8 orb vs. anything he can reliably hit with a touch attack isn't worth the action. A purple worm has 200 HP. 20 damage just isn't going to cut it. Better to spend your time with something else.

Furthermore, range touch attacks from a caster miss surprisingly a lot. Dex is a tertiary stat, it's hard to pump the +to hit on a touch attack, you get a -4 penalty for firing into melee, a -4 penalty if your enemy decides to go prone, and another -4 if your enemy takes cover behind a wall, your ally, etc. So if you really want to avoid a touch attack, you can get up to an effective -12 on it.

A sorcerer with poor BAB that decides to prestige class out at level 5 loses even more BAB, which actually ends up mattering quite a bit. A level 10 sorcerer with 4 BAB and 14 dex has only a +6 to hit. Against an enemy with 12 dex and a ring of protection +1, you've got a failure rate on your spells of about 30%.

That's why using ranged touch attacks are best when they can carry overwhelming damage (metamagic + orb) or a nasty status effect. Disintegrate, for instance, is a terrible offensive spell and only marginally useful for other things. It's neat, but mechanically, suboptimal. I'll never understand why LogicNinja got all hot in the pants for it.

zimmerwald1915

2011-01-14, 12:28 AM

That's why using ranged touch attacks are best when they can carry overwhelming damage (metamagic + orb) or a nasty status effect. Disintegrate, for instance, is a terrible offensive spell and only marginally useful for other things. It's neat, but mechanically, suboptimal. I'll never understand why LogicNinja got all hot in the pants for it.
It's more for clearing out obstacles and eliminating magical traps than for in-combat use. A high ranged touch roll is not necessary to hit the broad side of a barn, after all, even if the barn is made of force.

Essence_of_War

2011-01-14, 12:31 AM

There is a fun sorcerer with spell list here:

http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19868534/The_Mailman:_A_Direct_Damage_Sorcerer&post_num=2

ericgrau

2011-01-14, 03:18 AM

Web is good, but he's already got a solid list of 2nd level spells, it would be hard to choose which one to give up. Also, keep in mind that Web requires something to anchor it to, so it may not always be available in every situation.
At low levels I'd take web over glitterdust if he's indoors a lot. And since both are area disablers there's not much point to having both. Even if monsters save on a web it slows them down quite a bit, especially low level monsters that have a limit on how high their strength or escape artist goes. At high levels I might take heightened glitterdust over heightened web, or swap out for an all day buff instead while using higher level spells in combat.

A 5d8 orb vs. anything he can reliably hit with a touch attack isn't worth the action. A purple worm has 200 HP. 20 damage just isn't going to cut it. Better to spend your time with something else.
If you're using 1st level spells on a CR 12 creature there's already something wrong with your tactics. None of the 1st or 2nd level control spells will have any affect on the worm either. At least the level 1 orb does something. If anything you maximize a scorching ray and bam you've done 1/3rd of its health (72 damage) in a 4 person party in only 1 round, no save almost auto-hit. Or you use another orb or other damage spell of similar level. In 2 rounds he's probably dead with you doing 2/3 of the damage. Or half the damage if you're not level 11 yet. Very much worth the action. If anything a purple worm is a shining example of when direct damage is a good idea. Even measly single target damage in this situation, not even multiplied from hitting more than 1 in an area.

Thespianus

2011-01-14, 06:25 AM

That's why using ranged touch attacks are best when they can carry overwhelming damage (metamagic + orb) or a nasty status effect.
...or Sneak Attack damage! ;)

For Sneak Attacking casters, Orbs >> Magic Missile.

ShneekeyTheLost

2011-01-14, 08:43 AM

A 5d8 orb vs. anything he can reliably hit with a touch attack isn't worth the action. A purple worm has 200 HP. 20 damage just isn't going to cut it. Better to spend your time with something else. True, but at the same time, Magic Missile will be doing even LESS damage, so it won't be very useful either.

Furthermore, range touch attacks from a caster miss surprisingly a lot. Dex is a tertiary stat, it's hard to pump the +to hit on a touch attack, you get a -4 penalty for firing into melee, a -4 penalty if your enemy decides to go prone, and another -4 if your enemy takes cover behind a wall, your ally, etc. So if you really want to avoid a touch attack, you can get up to an effective -12 on it. So you've made your opponent, worried about your peashooter, give your rogue free sneak attacks? Woot! Congratulations, follow up with a SoL spell to put the nail in the coffin and laugh.

Also, Dex is a secondary, not a tertiary, stat. Particularly early game when that is where almost all of your 'don't hit me' ability comes from, until you get Mirror Image.

A sorcerer with poor BAB that decides to prestige class out at level 5 loses even more BAB, which actually ends up mattering quite a bit. A level 10 sorcerer with 4 BAB and 14 dex has only a +6 to hit. Against an enemy with 12 dex and a ring of protection +1, you've got a failure rate on your spells of about 30%. So wait... your opponents at level 5 are wearing rings of protection? Sweet! Switch to a SoL spell and either increase a party member's AC or just sell them all for profit! Talk about monty-hauling.

That's why using ranged touch attacks are best when they can carry overwhelming damage (metamagic + orb) or a nasty status effect. Disintegrate, for instance, is a terrible offensive spell and only marginally useful for other things. It's neat, but mechanically, suboptimal. I'll never understand why LogicNinja got all hot in the pants for it.

Then let me explain...

First off, Disintegrate is a SoD spell without being an actual death effect. Which means it works on things like Undead, like that litch who is about to wipe out the party.

Second, it's cool to be able to turn your opponent into a pile of ash.

Keld Denar

2011-01-14, 11:23 AM

Schneeky, being prone doesn't open you up to SAs. Dunno what you are talking about there. Most of the rest of it is valid though.

ericgrau

2011-01-14, 11:53 AM

True, but at the same time, Magic Missile will be doing even LESS damage, so it won't be very useful either.
You go empowered maximized magic missile or higher level orb, naturally, for 34 reliable damage. 1/6th its health per round from only 1 player. Often there are better options but this is still passable and reliable if nothing else will work. So ya basically don't use level 1 spells in combat, unless you plan on metamagicking them up the wazoo. EDIT: Try a non-combat level 1 spell if you don't plan on metamagic.

As for orb vs. missile. Some things have a 4 touch AC sure, but others have a 14 AC, and +4 more from creature cover. Vs. 5 BAB + dex. Hitting is more important than a handful of damage. At the same time orbs ignore SR, making them more useful at high levels.

I'd put dex 3rd after con, because you can only go so far with caster AC (do get a little AC though) and it can add a huge number of HP compared to your piddly d4. Also why I like false life: lots of HP, doesn't eat a combat round. When an evoker can often kill a fight in 2-3 rounds I question the effectiveness of someone who spends the first round on mirror image or similar, and second on merely disabling some of the foes. Disable the foes in round 1 instead and then there will be less to hit everyone, including you. Get maybe 1-2 short duration buffs for the lucky times when you get a buffing round or the panic times when something sneaks up behind the party.

Project_Mayhem

2011-01-14, 12:06 PM

Wow, loads of responses - First, thanks, this is all helpful :smallsmile:

Switching my spells is partly contingent on my DMs ruling on Alter Self - if he plays it as written, I won't need fly, freeing a third level slot. However, he might veto that.

That said, I'm going with magic missile over lesser acid orb, and ditching slow and wind wall, to cover my saves better. I'll take foreball if I get searing spell approved, and ... thats one slot open

Keld Denar

2011-01-14, 12:19 PM

STINKING CLOUD STINKING CLOUD STINKING CLOUDa!!!!

Project_Mayhem

2011-01-14, 12:29 PM

I'm thinking you like stinking cloud eh?

I'll check it out again on the srd

Edit: I have no idea why I thought nauseated meant -2 to hit ...

kme

2011-01-14, 01:37 PM

Stinking cloud is awesome :smallbiggrin:.

A few more words on alter self. This spell is versatile, but is also overestimated. +8 to AC won't be very relevant past the early levels. It doesn't protect from spells, touch attacks, area effects, grapple and if you you don't have additional sources of AC to stack, it won't even protect you from normal attacks. The already mentioned False Life will always give that extra HP, lasts longer, doesn't turn you into a weird humanoid and can even be metamagicked later.

Even if you get avariel form, you may still want to keep Fly since it can be used on other party members too. You don't have that much need for flying except as a defensive measure, but your fighter will be useless if he cannot reach a monster 30ft above his head.

ericgrau

2011-01-14, 02:02 PM

Ya alter self for AC is overrated on a class that can't make much use of it. In core it's useful for disguises, climbing and swimming IIRC. Where it gets busted is when you add more books for things like flying and burrow, which he still needs to ask his DM about. If the DM says no he might want to consider another spell, though it'd still be ok.

satorian

2011-01-14, 02:08 PM

Well, it also breaks if you aren't playing a humanoid type.

Project_Mayhem

2011-01-14, 02:35 PM

Ya, problem is human is as humanoid as you can get :smalltongue:

I think disguise will be of the most use.

nedz

2011-01-14, 02:50 PM

...or Sneak Attack damage! ;)

For Sneak Attacking casters, Orbs >> Magic Missile.

Scout 5/Sorc 1 with Imp Skirmish can do
Acid Splash for d3+4d6 :smallcool:
Ranged Touch, No SR, no need for them to be denied Dex.
Just need that Level 0 Ring of Wizadry :smallbiggrin:

Thespianus

2011-01-14, 04:22 PM

Scout 5/Sorc 1 with Imp Skirmish can do
Acid Splash for d3+4d6 :smallcool:

Nice. ;) Give me 2 more levels to play with:

Rogue 5/Wiz 1/Unseen Seer 2 with Practiced Spellcaster and Craven can do Acid Splash for D3+6D6+8 ;)

But, yes, that requires loss of Dex-bonus on the target's part.

(Ofcourse, with the Combust spell, you do 7D8+6d6+8 points of damage, but that's not a Cantrip. :smallwink: )

Greenish

2011-01-14, 06:25 PM

Rogue 5/Wiz 1/Unseen Seer 2 with Practiced Spellcaster and Craven can do Acid Splash for D3+6D6+8 ;)Scout1/wizard4(or 5)/US10 is pretty nifty, given that US advances Skirmish faster than Scout.

Keld Denar

2011-01-14, 06:31 PM

I've played around with that build before. Unfortunately, there is no skirmish equivalent to Hunter's Eye. That would have clinched it. Combine that with Staggering Strike (due to skirmish/SA transparency) and you'd have a pretty kickass kiting build.

nedz

2011-01-14, 07:14 PM

Nice. ;) Give me 2 more levels to play with:

Rogue 5/Wiz 1/Unseen Seer 2 with Practiced Spellcaster and Craven can do Acid Splash for D3+6D6+8 ;)

But, yes, that requires loss of Dex-bonus on the target's part.

(Ofcourse, with the Combust spell, you do 7D8+6d6+8 points of damage, but that's not a Cantrip. :smallwink: )
Rogue 5 = 3d6 sneak
Unseen Seer 2 = +1d6 sneak
Craven = +1/level

Where are the other two d6s coming from ?
What am I missing ?

Scout1/wizard4(or 5)/US10 is pretty nifty, given that US advances Skirmish faster than Scout.
Yeah thats cool, but you really need Scout 3 for Imp Skirmish

I've played around with that build before. Unfortunately, there is no skirmish equivalent to Hunter's Eye. That would have clinched it. Combine that with Staggering Strike (due to skirmish/SA transparency) and you'd have a pretty kickass kiting build.
Yeah - there's lots of builds that almost make it.
Shame you can't Warlock into US also.

ShneekeyTheLost

2011-01-14, 07:21 PM

I'd put Slow back in there. Sure, it targets Will, like Glitterdust, but it's a LOT easier to aim, and doesn't risk Friendly Fire, and greatly cripples a large number of targets, particularly if they are beatstick mooks.

Glitterdust is great, both for blinding opponents and for outlining invisible opponents, but Slow is great for multi-target, friend-friendly, non-spatial debuffing.

Specifically, Slow prevents them from making a full attack. Ever. Second, it forces them to EITHER attack, OR move. Pick one or the other. So with careful movement, your beatstick friends can hit and move, keeping the opponent from landing a single blow on them.

So I'd have both Slow and Stinking Cloud on as 3rd level spells. You've got Grease for a Reflex Save or Loose, you don't need Fireball. If you really want another Reflex Save or Loose, wait for 4th level spells and Resilient Sphere.

Edit: I just noticed you don't have Mirror Image... FIX THIS! Well, unless you want to just make sure your first 4th level spell is the Greater version.

Invisibility = 50% miss chance. Mirror Image = 1 in 8 odds = 12.5% chance = 86.5% miss chance. The only good thing about Invis is that it is a good buff for Rogues to reactivate their sneak attack for a single attack.

Greenish

2011-01-14, 07:24 PM

Yeah thats cool, but you really need Scout 3 for Imp Skirmish7 damage isn't worth losing two levels of casting over.

Thespianus

2011-01-15, 07:11 AM

Scout1/wizard4(or 5)/US10 is pretty nifty, given that US advances Skirmish faster than Scout.

I've played around with that build before. Unfortunately, there is no skirmish equivalent to Hunter's Eye.

Precisely why I went for Rogue there, rather then to build upon the Scout bild. :)

Thespianus

2011-01-15, 07:14 AM

Rogue 5 = 3d6 sneak
Unseen Seer 2 = +1d6 sneak
Craven = +1/level

Where are the other two d6s coming from ?
What am I missing ?
The Hunter's Eye-spell that you get from your 2nd level of Unseen Seer. (SpC)

The class ability Advanced Learning (or somesuch) allows you to learn any divination spell from any spell list. Hunter's Eye is on the Ranger spell list and gives you +1D6 of Sneak Attack damage/3 caster levels.

It's the foundation of (almost) any high damage dealning sneak attacking arcane rouge build. With the boost you get to divination spell CL from Unseen Seer, you're looking at an extra 7, maybe 8 D6s of Sneak Attack at level 20, from that one spell alone. Persist it for fun and profit.

Runestar

2011-01-15, 07:19 AM

Specifically, Slow prevents them from making a full attack. Ever. Second, it forces them to EITHER attack, OR move. Pick one or the other. So with careful movement, your beatstick friends can hit and move, keeping the opponent from landing a single blow on them.

Note that anyone can charge as a standard action (moving up to their speed) if they are limited to a standard action. So creatures with pounce can still full-attack as a standard action. You will want to combo slow with waves of exhaustion to really screw melee foes. :smallamused:

That said, if you want slow to remain viable, you will want heighten spell to keep its save DC relevant (already mentioned, but I feel it bears repeating, quite a few low lv spells continue to stay relevant even at higher lvs). :smallsmile:

Project_Mayhem

2011-01-15, 08:37 AM

Invisibility has the cool thing where you get into position and use benign transposition to switch with the fighter

gbprime

2011-01-15, 08:52 AM

Invisibility has the cool thing where you get into position and use benign transposition to switch with the fighter

You can do that with a familiar, homonculus, or animal companion too. An animal companion is most expendable and is a great use for characters other than full druids who have an animal companion ability on their sheet but that is too weak to act as an off-tank. Just get something fast and have it double-move to where you want your ally to end up.

kme

2011-01-15, 09:16 AM

Project_Mayhem

2011-01-15, 09:21 AM

hold on - I thought benign transposition was personal?

nedz

2011-01-15, 09:49 AM

The Hunter's Eye-spell that you get from your 2nd level of Unseen Seer. (SpC)

The class ability Advanced Learning (or somesuch) allows you to learn any divination spell from any spell list. Hunter's Eye is on the Ranger spell list and gives you +1D6 of Sneak Attack damage/3 caster levels.

It's the foundation of (almost) any high damage dealning sneak attacking arcane rouge build. With the boost you get to divination spell CL from Unseen Seer, you're looking at an extra 7, maybe 8 D6s of Sneak Attack at level 20, from that one spell alone. Persist it for fun and profit.
I can find no such spell ?
There's Hunter's Mercy in the SpC which gives you an auto crit, but its a std action to cast. This has a duration of 1 rd and is not Persistable.

gbprime

2011-01-15, 10:09 AM

hold on - I thought benign transposition was personal?

Nope. Targets two willing creatures. Neither one has to be the caster. :smallsmile:

gbprime

2011-01-15, 10:11 AM

I can find no such spell ?
There's Hunter's Mercy in the SpC which gives you an auto crit, but its a std action to cast. This has a duration of 1 rd and is not Persistable.

Hunter's Eye is from Players Handbook 2.

Project_Mayhem

2011-01-15, 10:28 AM

Wow, that's really good ...

gbprime

2011-01-15, 11:28 AM

Wow, that's really good ...

An excellent spell for some groups, a waste of a slot for others. (The smaller the party, the less useful this spell is.) It really depends on how many melee capable types you have in the party and how good they are at getting into position and staying there. If they're bad at reacting the battlefield or otherwise need med-evac services regularly, this spell is the best 1st level spell there is. :smallbiggrin:

Thespianus

2011-01-15, 12:26 PM

Hunter's Eye is from Players Handbook 2.

Ah, my bad. I do apologize.

ericgrau

2011-01-15, 01:11 PM

Slow is not that great at lower levels. Its area is actually small, sculpted glitterdust will hit more enemies usually. That smallish area will prevent you from targeting a lot of enemies while they are still far forcing you to use the spell when everyone is already grouped in melee. Preventing full attacks can be nice, but a lot of NPCs/monsters have only one attack or an iterative that will easily miss anyway. Also, to exploit that move or attack effect you need to have a very specific party, your usual beatsticks will lose a lot of their firepower if they spend their actions running around and could also be subject to AOOs.

All that said, slow is still a great spell, but hardly necessary. It is more of a higher levels spell where preventing full attacks has more importance. Especially when you consider that it's will save based without being mind-affecting. I would take it at level 13 or 11.
Slow hits 1 target per caster level. At least 5 and for the OP up to 9 if they're all within 30' of eachother. Inside a 10' radius glitterdust you usually get 2 or 3. I suppose in a tight melee battle you might get 3-5 with a sculpted glitterdust. And while slowed foes aren't removed from the fight (technically blind enemies can fight at half power too, but the rules confuse most DMs), a slowed foe is pretty heavily debilitated.

Glitterdust might be better if the OP also gets see invisibility so he can find the invisible thing and pop it so his allies can see it too. And if the DM actually uses invisible foes. At 10 foot radius glitterdust isn't too good at finding invisible things on its own. At 10 minutes per level you can cast an extended see invisibility in the morning and always be ready.

Jack_Simth

2011-01-15, 01:24 PM

Glitterdust might be better if the OP also gets see invisibility so he can find the invisible thing and pop it so his allies can see it too. Bat familiar. Blindsense + Speak with Familiar = You know where to drop the Glitterdust unless the target has Darkstalker or similar.

kme

2011-01-15, 02:18 PM

ericgrau

2011-01-15, 02:24 PM

Bat familiar. Blindsense + Speak with Familiar = You know where to drop the Glitterdust unless the target has Darkstalker or similar.

20' radius. Only a step better than randomly dropping the glitterdust and hoping it happens to be in the radius. Though nice if something sneaks up on you. Being a caster in melee range of the monster possibly before you get a chance to respond is not so nice though. I could see it working about half the time. Or you could burn a 2nd level spell and 1 of your 3 uses/day from your 3,000 gp lesser rod of extend spell in the morning for unlimited range. Not the mention the hilarity of trying to get the bat to point out the square with his wing. "It's there by the corner. No the other corner! Further from the corner and towards us, not to the left. Now he moved. Look, I'll just fly to him and you can glitterdust me. Ahhh his sword hurts!"

Jack_Simth

2011-01-15, 02:43 PM

20' radius. Only a step better than randomly dropping the glitterdust and hoping it happens to be in the radius. Though nice if something sneaks up on you. Being a caster in melee range of the monster possibly before you get a chance to respond is not so nice though. I could see it working about half the time. Or you could burn a 2nd level spell and 1 of your 3 uses/day from your 3,000 gp lesser rod of extend spell in the morning for unlimited range.If you have the spells known and GP to spend on it, sure. That won't always be the case. Additionally, this is about Sorcerers. See Invisibility *only* counters Invisibility, and then only for you. If you find another method of a partial counter to Invisibility that doesn't cost you a spell known, well... Glitterdust then counters invisibility, for everyone, *and* is a useful Save-or-lose effect.

Not the mention the hilarity of trying to get the bat to point out the square with his wing. "It's there by the corner. No the other corner! Further from the corner and towards us, not to the left. Now he moved. Look, I'll just fly to him and you can glitterdust me. Ahhh his sword hurts!"That's just a matter of advanced planning and talking this type of thing out with your familiar beforehand. "He's 15 feet away, at your 3 o'clock." is sufficient to land a Glitterdust, as talking is a free action, and your bat acts on your turn anyway.

ericgrau

2011-01-15, 04:49 PM

See invisibility is nice because while it eats away a spell known, it doesn't eat away a combat round. You cast it in the morning. And it's a level 2 spell. Once you hit high enough level you have more spells than combat rounds. The low level spells should be the first to go to be replaced with something you cast while not in combat. See invisibility is good to have even without glitterdust. Without costing you any action YOU already see the invisible foe. If he's the only one you can tackle him while your allies handle the rest.

Communication was only half the problem. You didn't address the poor radius. My point was why bother with such a poor method that often might not work when a 2nd level spell - something that should go to some kind of all day buff anyway - and the metamagic rod are so cheap. That was the point of saying 1/3rd of 3,000 gp. It isn't gp lost, it's pocket change. So for a minimal resource investment the problem is solved with almost zero "except ifs". The rod itself is so cheap that it's great for any caster to buy. Then you use it on other level 1-3 spells, most likely on more all day buffs.

ShneekeyTheLost

2011-01-15, 06:18 PM

Slow may have a good number of targets but getting them in effective 15ft radius spread is not something to rely on. If everyone is already in melee, a lot of the times the only effect of slow will be -1 to Hit, AC and Ref.

Sculpted glitterdust will basically always hit at least 4 enemies. Blindness is a much nastier condition then slow. Penalties on AC and to hit, free sneak attacks, half speed, invisibility for the whole party, and 50% miss chance even if they guess the right squares to attack.

Of course, the higher level you are the better slow becomes. I never said it was a bad spell, just that it's not great at lower levels, especially if you already have glitterdust which would be better in most cases.

Ummm... lolwhat?

I dunno about you, but in my book, Slow hits a number of targets up to caster level, wherin no two are more than 30' apart. It's also at Short range, so that starts out at 40' with up to another 30' from that. And smart targeting. Glitterdust is... a 10' radius spread.

So... 10' spread vs 30'... so how is glitterdust bigger again?

And let's not forget Friendly Fire. Your tank won't be happy with you if he ends up Glitterdusted too, since his will save is also crappy, and is likely in the mix of things as well.

Now, don't get me wrong, Glitterdust is an awesome spell, and I never said that it shouldn't be in the lineup. It's just that Slow should *also* be in the lineup, as it's a lot easier to target.

Draz74

2011-01-15, 06:47 PM

So... 10' spread vs 30'... so how is glitterdust bigger again?

By having Sculpt Spell applied to it. Yes, that was in the post you're responding to.

ShneekeyTheLost

2011-01-15, 06:52 PM

By having Sculpt Spell applied to it. Yes, that was in the post you're responding to.

Which is level adjustment plus... what?

Greenish

2011-01-15, 07:06 PM

Which is level adjustment plus... what?One. A most excellent metamagic it is, too.

ShneekeyTheLost

2011-01-15, 07:08 PM

One. A most excellent metamagic it is, too.

So it seems... what source is this from?

kme

2011-01-15, 07:09 PM

I am not sure what are you disagreeing with.

Ummm... lolwhat?

I dunno about you, but in my book, Slow hits a number of targets up to caster level, wherin no two are more than 30' apart. Bolded part effectively turns it into a 15ft radius spread that only targets selected enemies. Not much of an increase compared to glitterdust. They are both bad in that regard, but glitterdust can be sculpted wich makes it much better (and I said sculpted glitterdust in my post)
It's also at Short range, so that starts out at 40' with up to another 30' from that. And smart targeting. Glitterdust is... a 10' radius spread.No a 6th level caster cannot target someone beyond 40ft, slow is not a true burst or spread, and even if it were it would only get a 15ft more. On the other hand, Glitterdust is medium range.

So... 10' spread vs 30'... so how is glitterdust bigger again?
It's 10' vs 15' and I never said it's bigger, but with sculpt spell, you can hit at least 4 enemies. With slow you will be lucky to hit 4, unless you cast it in 2nd or 3rd round of combat (this will usually turn it into a will save or -1 to AC, attack and ref save)
And let's not forget Friendly Fire. Your tank won't be happy with you if he ends up Glitterdusted too, since his will save is also crappy, and is likely in the mix of things as well. This is one of the biggest benefits of slow, but with sculpt spell, glitterdust will be safe too and blindness is still much better then slowing effect.

Now, don't get me wrong, Glitterdust is an awesome spell, and I never said that it shouldn't be in the lineup. It's just that Slow should *also* be in the lineup, as it's a lot easier to target.
Now, don't get me wrong, Slow is an awesome spell, and I never said it should never be picked (I even said it should, but after level 11). It's just that glitterdust is better at lower levels (especially with sculpt spell), and it makes slow unnecessary. :smalltongue:

For a wizard it would be nice, as he could prepare one of both. But sorcerer would be better of saving a spell known for something with less overlap.

edit: bah, I was ninjaed, that's what I get for forgetting to click post button.

Greenish

2011-01-15, 07:09 PM

So it seems... what source is this from?Cityscape, pg 63.

kme

2011-01-15, 07:13 PM

Cityscape, pg 63.
It's also in complete arcane, pg 83.

Draz74

2011-01-15, 08:51 PM

One. A most excellent metamagic it is, too.

Quite possibly my favorite metamagic feat, in fact.

Yep ... Persist is either too late-game, or too cheesy; Extend is too easily duplicated with a Rod; Quicken is too late-game and doesn't work very well for spontaneous types (whom I prefer); Still and Silent are too situational; Ocular is too obscure; Split Ray is too narrow in application; Twin is too-much-can-go-wrong; Invisible leads to too many rules debates, and is used in too many cheesy combos; Energy Substitution is used in too many cheesy combos (with Arcane Thesis); Fell Animate slows down combat too much; Chain, Empower, and Maximize are great, but just adjust the spell level a little too harshly; and let's not even talk about the wastes of ink that are Enlarge or Widen, or the cheese that is Sanctum. Heighten is ... just weird, although it's certainly a Sorcerer staple.

Yep ... I think the only other metamagic feat that competes with Sculpt for awesomeness is Fell Drain.

ShneekeyTheLost

2011-01-15, 09:23 PM

kme

2011-01-16, 12:02 AM

Hmmm... there does seem to be some limitations on it, though. You're rather restricted in what you can shape it into, so I don't see how it is particularly useful. In fact, all of the extra shapes REDUCE it's effectiveness over what is written, except maybe the ball shape. And it still doesn't help against Friendly Fire, which slow completely ignores.
If you use it to get 4 10ft cubes you can place them at different places easily avoiding friendly fire. This idea is supported in CM if you read the feat suggestions for a blaster archetype.

ShneekeyTheLost

2011-01-16, 12:38 AM

If you use it to get 4 10ft cubes you can place them at different places easily avoiding friendly fire. This idea is supported in CM if you read the feat suggestions for a blaster archetype.

Ahh, that does seem to be more useful. I read that as a cube of 4 10' squares for some reason. Go, go, gadget sleep dep.

Still, don't they at least have to be connected?

kme

2011-01-16, 12:44 AM

By RAW it's unclear (there was a thread about it a couple weeks ago). But in CM, in the section about wizard archetypes(blaster) it is listed as a good feat to pick. It states there how you could use it as 4 independent cubes so I suppose that's RAI.

faceroll

2011-01-17, 10:27 PM

Suggestion for 1st level spell for OP:
How many times a day do you roll initiative? There's a first level spell from SpC that gives you or an ally +5 on an initiative check, is cast immediately, and outside of initiative. Very handy.

If you're using 1st level spells on a CR 12 creature there's already something wrong with your tactics. None of the 1st or 2nd level control spells will have any affect on the worm either. At least the level 1 orb does something. If anything you maximize a scorching ray and bam you've done 1/3rd of its health (72 damage) in a 4 person party in only 1 round, no save almost auto-hit. Or you use another orb or other damage spell of similar level. In 2 rounds he's probably dead with you doing 2/3 of the damage. Or half the damage if you're not level 11 yet. Very much worth the action. If anything a purple worm is a shining example of when direct damage is a good idea. Even measly single target damage in this situation, not even multiplied from hitting more than 1 in an area.

Ray of stupidity is awesome for these reasons. Spam second level slots and you can bring down big bruisers as fast as spamming 5th level slots that take your whole round to cast. My point being that 5d8 is trivial damage, relatively hard to land vs. enemies where you'd be better off using something else with your ACTIONS, and as a touch attack, direct damage doesn't do a whole lot vs. things that are weak to touch attacks.

True, but at the same time, Magic Missile will be doing even LESS damage, so it won't be very useful either.

5d8 is a) not useful vs. things weak vs. touch attacks, due to HP inflation and b) not useful vs. things strong vs. touch attacks because it has a high chance of missing. You already have other, better touch attack spells (real orbs, enervation, ray of stupidity, ray of enfeeblement, etc). Magic missile is a nice force effect vs. incorporeal undead, which are low hp, high threat opponents. It has a unique ability of always hitting, unlike the orb.

So you've made your opponent, worried about your peashooter, give your rogue free sneak attacks? Woot! Congratulations, follow up with a SoL spell to put the nail in the coffin and laugh.

Note that I said "if you really want to avoid a ranged touch attack." I was hoping the one could see that a touch attack one would really want to avoid would be maximized scorching rays, an enervation, etc.

Also, Dex is a secondary, not a tertiary, stat. Particularly early game when that is where almost all of your 'don't hit me' ability comes from, until you get Mirror Image.

casting stat>con>dex, imo. Fort saves + more HP mean less likely to get debilitated and splash damage from spells hurts less.

So wait... your opponents at level 5 are wearing rings of protection? Sweet! Switch to a SoL spell and either increase a party member's AC or just sell them all for profit! Talk about monty-hauling.

At level 5 you have +2 BAB, +2 dex, and will be facing opponents that have relatively high touch acs, as they tend to be medium and small sized. The -4 penalty for shooting into melee vs. things with even a touch ac of 8 means you're facing staggeringly high failure rates for your spells. If your meat shields are in there, it means they're getting cover.

I'm also using level 10 as an example because that is relative to the OP. I have no idea what the relevance of level 5 is.

Then let me explain...

First off, Disintegrate is a SoD spell without being an actual death effect. Which means it works on things like Undead, like that litch who is about to wipe out the party.

Second, it's cool to be able to turn your opponent into a pile of ash.

Or, you miss the lich because he is a caster and lols at touch attacks. He has natural armor, which with a second level spell means "don't touch this", or as an immediate action, turns your spell back on you with ray deflection.

Furthermore, it's no good vs. high HP opponents because they almost always have high fort saves. Only undead and constructs don't follow this rule, and constructs tend to have magic immunities.

Also, 22d6 for a 6th level slot and a spell known is not worth it. A metamagic'd lower level spell would be far superior, and either a) not require a save or b) not require a ranged touch attack.

ShneekeyTheLost

2011-01-17, 10:35 PM

Note that I said "if you really want to avoid a ranged touch attack." I was hoping the one could see that a touch attack one would really want to avoid would be maximized scorching rays, an enervation, etc.

And I was hoping you would see that by doing so, you pretty much beg the rest of the party to curb-stomp you, and that it also makes you vulnerable to other effects a Sorcerer has. By having the opponent over-react to avoid being hit by a touch attack, he nerfs his OWN AC vs melee, and a perfect target for a non-RTA type spell which you have in your repertoire.

Let's face it, by this time, 1st level spells really aren't all that useful. Although I will agree with Nerveskitter being a good option. However, the good thing about an RTA no-SR 1st level spell is that it's a good popgun when it would be a waste of an action to unpack your crossbow.

Or, you miss the lich because he is a caster and lols at touch attacks. He has natural armor, which with a second level spell means "don't touch this", or as an immediate action, turns your spell back on you with ray deflection.

Furthermore, it's no good vs. high HP opponents because they almost always have high fort saves. Only undead and constructs don't follow this rule, and constructs tend to have magic immunities.

Also, 22d6 for a 6th level slot and a spell known is not worth it. A metamagic'd lower level spell would be far superior, and either a) not require a save or b) not require a ranged touch attack.

And a caster lol's at touch attacks how? Last I saw, most of their AC boosting spells were armor (mage armor, luminous variants thereof) or shield (Shield spell), which it flat ignores.

The 2nd level spell to which you referring to is less effective than you might think, considering the low duration, and the fact that... oh, I dunno... you have to have scales? Besides, even if you DO crank in his natural armor bonus, you still can't possibly miss him anyways. It's not like he has a very high AC to begin with.

The other thing about Disintegrate is that it's a BBEG *ENDER*. Unless he's got someone with True Res handy, or miracle, he's pretty much boned. As in 'do not come back, do not collect $200'. It keeps him from coming back later on. Which is worth it.

faceroll

2011-01-17, 11:05 PM

And I was hoping you would see that by doing so, you pretty much beg the rest of the party to curb-stomp you, and that it also makes you vulnerable to other effects a Sorcerer has. By having the opponent over-react to avoid being hit by a touch attack, he nerfs his OWN AC vs melee, and a perfect target for a non-RTA type spell which you have in your repertoire.

It really depends on how awful the incoming spell is, how much melee you've got on you, and what your HP/AC looks like. Touch attacks aren't the game enders CharOp chalks them up to be, not without investment and/or planning.

Let's face it, by this time, 1st level spells really aren't all that useful. Although I will agree with Nerveskitter being a good option. However, the good thing about an RTA no-SR 1st level spell is that it's a good popgun when it would be a waste of an action to unpack your crossbow.

I would rather have a pop gun that never misses. Or nerveskitter.

And a caster lol's at touch attacks how? Last I saw, most of their AC boosting spells were armor (mage armor, luminous variants thereof) or shield (Shield spell), which it flat ignores.

The 2nd level spell to which you referring to is less effective than you might think, considering the low duration, and the fact that... oh, I dunno... you have to have scales? Besides, even if you DO crank in his natural armor bonus, you still can't possibly miss him anyways. It's not like he has a very high AC to begin with.

Scintillating Scales turns your natural armor into a deflection modifier. No scales needed (except as a material component, maybe). Bite of the werewolf (4th level spell) + scintillating scales (2nd level spell) is like +6 to touch ac.

Throw in a monk's belt and something boosting wisdom, and you can easily get a touch AC around 25.

And of course, immediate action, ray deflection, the disintegrate bounces off and goes at you or a friend. Whoops.

The other thing about Disintegrate is that it's a BBEG *ENDER*. Unless he's got someone with True Res handy, or miracle, he's pretty much boned. As in 'do not come back, do not collect $200'. It keeps him from coming back later on. Which is worth it.

You have to be level 11 or 12 to use Disintegrate. By that point, True Res and Miracle are already on the table. Heck, even Reincarnation will work. The only thing to stop BBEGs is Thinuan or Trap the Soul or similar measures. Planar binding's been around for awhile. There's a good chance the lich is just an astral projection he's using, thanks to a bound nightmare.

Also, it's a lich. They come back in 1d10 days.

If your DM wants to keep the BBEG around until frodo throws the ring in mount doom, anyway.

ericgrau

2011-01-18, 02:43 AM

It's true that touch AC remains an issue for a while when all you have is poor BAB + dex. The average remains around 10 but the variation goes up at higher levels. i.e., for every high level gigantic monster with touch AC 4 there's one with touch AC 16.

You have to be level 11 or 12 to use Disintegrate. By that point, True Res and Miracle are already on the table. Heck, even Reincarnation will work. The only thing to stop BBEGs is Thinuan or Trap the Soul or similar measures. Planar binding's been around for awhile. There's a good chance the lich is just an astral projection he's using, thanks to a bound nightmare.
The BBEG isn't gonna have a lacky 2-3 levels higher than him. In fact it'll probably be lower. Maybe a LBEG could be rezzed and only if the BBEG is a cleric. Though perhaps you mean a lacky of his can get 1/2 of his NPC WBL to pay 26,530 gp for a true res from the magic mart. Nah level 21+ is more plausible for that.

All this pretty moot though IMO, as you could simply prepare disintegrate the next day and take care of the corpse that way. The main advantage disintegrate has I think is it does 1/2 of the average foe's HP and is pretty dang hard to resist. Doesn't hurt your treasure either. Immunities, ways to undo and other drawbacks are common for the other supposed SoDs.

ShneekeyTheLost

2011-01-18, 06:57 PM

Scintillating Scales turns your natural armor into a deflection modifier. No scales needed (except as a material component, maybe). Bite of the werewolf (4th level spell) + scintillating scales (2nd level spell) is like +6 to touch ac.

Throw in a monk's belt and something boosting wisdom, and you can easily get a touch AC around 25.

And of course, immediate action, ray deflection, the disintegrate bounces off and goes at you or a friend. Whoops. So you're going to swing a nerf bat at your own spells known/prepared list in exchange for not affecting my ability to hit you with a ray in the slightest? Sure, go for it!

As for why not? Meet my good friend, Mr. Wand of True Strike. That's the most obvious way, of course, but there's a lot more ways to ensure that you aren't missing, even WITH a touch AC of 30+

And of course, since half of those are rounds/level spell durations, he's NOT going to have them up before combat. Which means bending his action economy over

So he gets to not do anything the first couple rounds while he buffs up... and it doesn't really stop me from popping him anyways...

Sure! Go for it!

ericgrau

2011-01-18, 07:14 PM

You mean quickened true strike, true strike isn't really worth the time. Or switch to non-ray spells.

But am I correct in googling that scintillating scales only lasts 1 round per level? That makes it a lot less useful and not as broken as I thought. I mean if we have your standard Schroedinger mage casting mirror image, scintillating scales and fly, not including a handful of lesser spells that get less frequent mention, then the fight is already over and the mage's allies are already mopping up monster stragglers or vis versa. "Hahahaha, behold my awesome defenses! Wait, where's my party?"

faceroll

2011-01-18, 08:40 PM

So you're going to swing a nerf bat at your own spells known/prepared list in exchange for not affecting my ability to hit you with a ray in the slightest? Sure, go for it!

With at least 11 levels of caster, a 2nd level and 4th level spell in a scroll or potion isn't that big of a deal. Or as spells prepared, for that matter. NPCs get a ton of mileage out of consumables, lots more than PCs.

And again, ray deflection.

As for why not? Meet my good friend, Mr. Wand of True Strike. That's the most obvious way, of course, but there's a lot more ways to ensure that you aren't missing, even WITH a touch AC of 30+

Meet my better friend, action advantage. As a sorcerer, you can't really quicken that true strike, either. Not without some feat investment or spending a turn casting spells.

And of course, since half of those are rounds/level spell durations, he's NOT going to have them up before combat. Which means bending his action economy over

So he gets to not do anything the first couple rounds while he buffs up... and it doesn't really stop me from popping him anyways...

Sure! Go for it!

Haha, like you're going to get the drop on a lich (or any BBEG). Good one.

You mean quickened true strike, true strike isn't really worth the time. Or switch to non-ray spells.

As a sorcerer you're going to have difficulty quickening that true strike. And again, disintegrate is a lame spell. It's useful for breaking force effects, as another poster pointed out to me, but its combat utility is superseded by either metmagic on damaging spells, or simply a better spell.

A minimum level lich with false life up and having been a specialist necromancer/corpsecrafter/created on a desecrated altar has a greater average HP than the average damage 22d6 does, on a failed save, anyhow.

But am I correct in googling that scintillating scales only lasts 1 round per level? That makes it a lot less useful and not as broken as I thought. I mean if we have your standard Schroedinger mage casting mirror image, scintillating scales and fly, not including a handful of lesser spells that get less frequent mention, then the fight is already over and the mage's allies are already mopping up monster stragglers or vis versa. "Hahahaha, behold my awesome defenses! Wait, where's my party?"

The online versions for scintillating scales look like they come from living greyhawk. Check the SpC for the most up-to-date version. I believe it's minutes/level, if not 10minutes/level, and turns natural armor into deflection armor, not con bonus into deflection armor.