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Katana_Geldar
2011-01-13, 09:52 PM
They're ending the line, except for collectors sets.

This sucks!

Elfin
2011-01-13, 10:03 PM
Oh dear.
Do you have a link?

Katana_Geldar
2011-01-13, 10:09 PM
Not really, I saw it on Enworld.

Does that count? (http://www.enworld.org/forum/general-rpg-discussion/299575-ddm-line-axed.html)

Thurbane
2011-01-13, 10:13 PM
...meh. I haven't bought a box since early 4E, and at the time I gave up, the quality of the sets was really on the decline.

They peaked at around Desert of Desolation, and the quality of the sculpts and paintjobs started sliding downhill from there, IMHO.

Fortunately, I've got all the minis I'm ever likely to need.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=98072

Katana_Geldar
2011-01-13, 10:15 PM
I get mine individually, or a box if they're going very cheap. Minis add something to the game, even if I don't have all the right ones.

Has anyone seen the mini Mike Kruthuik uses for Jim Darkmagic? It's the Eladrin Pyromancer. And one of my players who uses it got a real kick when he found out that it was the same as Jim Darkmagic.

Elfin
2011-01-13, 10:23 PM
My collection, sadly, started only last year, so it's quite small.

Well then, I suppose it's back to trawling the Internet for singles.

The Glyphstone
2011-01-13, 10:45 PM
I own exactly two miniatures - a Gauth and a Beholder. It's all I want.:smallcool:

Claudius Maximus
2011-01-13, 10:57 PM
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=98072

Those are some pretty realistic minis in that first post.

Thurbane
2011-01-13, 11:20 PM
Those are some pretty realistic minis in that first post.
LOL - yeah, I think the links got messed up at some point after I uploaded them! :smalltongue:

AslanCross
2011-01-14, 01:09 AM
Ugh, and it was so hard to get them here, especially the heroes line. My FLGS would only sell them in bundles (mostly because they were so hard to sell).

I also noticed the dramatic decline in the quality. See here. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7085259&postcount=28)

Claudius Maximus
2011-01-14, 01:22 AM
Huh. They really did go down in quality I guess. All of mine are from a while back, the latest being when I think they first introduced huge-sized minis, and even those look better than the ones you posted.

I stopped buying them because of sudden poorness, but if I ever start collecting again what sets would it be best to skip, and which are good?

AslanCross
2011-01-14, 01:25 AM
Huh. They really did go down in quality I guess. All of mine are from a while back, the latest being when I think they first introduced huge-sized minis, and even those look better than the ones you posted.

I stopped buying them because of sudden poorness, but if I ever start collecting again what sets would it be best to skip, and which are good?

Not sure what you want to prioritize, but what I want to get if I had the choice are the War of the Dragonqueen and Against the Giants sets. I want the Huge-size minis.

Claudius Maximus
2011-01-14, 01:32 AM
Well as long as I don't get any more of those damned Fiendish Tyrannosauruses I'm not averse to huges. Mostly I'd like humanoids though. None of my minis has ever remotely resembled a single PC ever even once, and I might like that to change.

Actually it'd be really cool to be able to buy singles, or alternatively, huge packs of a bunch. My local store doesn't do anything like that though.

Masaioh
2011-01-14, 02:09 AM
Well that sucks. No wonder Lords of Madness is so hard to find lately. I'd like to get a couple of the rare minis from that set before they go out of print, like the Archdukes.

AslanCross
2011-01-14, 02:12 AM
Well as long as I don't get any more of those damned Fiendish Tyrannosauruses I'm not averse to huges. Mostly I'd like humanoids though. None of my minis has ever remotely resembled a single PC ever even once, and I might like that to change.

Actually it'd be really cool to be able to buy singles, or alternatively, huge packs of a bunch. My local store doesn't do anything like that though.

Wow, and I thought I had it tough with only about 8 figures that resembled anything my players would play.

Thurbane
2011-01-14, 03:07 AM
Well as long as I don't get any more of those damned Fiendish Tyrannosauruses I'm not averse to huges.
I'll trade you for some Nightwalkers! Seriously, 5/7 packs I got were Nightwalkers...the other 2 were Fomorians. :smallfurious:

Ozreth
2011-01-14, 03:26 AM
I'm surprised nobody has commented on what this may or may not mean for the state of D&D.

4e is obviously HIGHLY geared towards miniature combat, to the point where a lot of players say its just about impossible without them (whether thats good, bad, or even true is up to you).

Also, the trend of WotC lately has been to basically spoon feed gamers (4e gamers in particular) by producing their own versions of everything you could ever need (and much more) to play their game. Battle Maps, Miniatures, Monster Tokens, 3d terrain, hell even cards for your spells and an online character builder with everything built in that does math for you.

So why stop making what seems to be the main ingredient: the miniatures? Are they hoping to replace them with monster tokens? Are they going to start a new line of miniatures with a different direction? Or, and this is extreme, a possible large rules overhaul that isn't so minis focused?

Could mean a number of things, could mean nothing. I'm betting for nothing, but it is interesting.

Smeggedoff
2011-01-14, 03:55 AM
I own exactly two miniatures - a Gauth and a Beholder. It's all I want.:smallcool:

Yeah, all I have is the Ancient Wyrm Red Dragon :smallbiggrin:

Man that was tricky to get home on the bus

Thurbane
2011-01-14, 05:52 AM
I remember when 4E was fairly new, there was talk that an online/computer based mapping system with customizable avatars for players and monsters was on the cards to replace physical maps and minis...maybe this is starting to come true?

Although I have come to never try and predict what WoTC has on the horizon for D&D...they usually managed to surprise and baffle me with their business model and decisions, and usually not in a positive way.

To be honest, since I don't play 4E, my relationship with WotC has basically finished, so I'm not that concerned any more. I do wish that more 3rd party manufacturers would take a stab at prepainted plastic minis in the same scale. The only one I'[m aware of was Reaper Minis, and AFAIK, they never even hit the stores in Australia. Some people don't like prepainted plastic, but to me it was a godsend...my lead minis always managed to get damaged quite easily, and I never had the time, patience or talent to paint the vast bulk of them.

FelixG
2011-01-14, 05:58 AM
Although I have come to never try and predict what WoTC has on the horizon for D&D...they usually managed to surprise and baffle me with their business model and decisions, and usually not in a positive way.

Well, WoTC is run by dyslexic monkeys quite obviously so its not surprising that they baffle you with their business decisions. :smallbiggrin:

Heck they let the Star Wars RPG license go, so you got to wonder whos running things over there...

ANYWAY back on topic: the way to fix this is as easy as any other board/wargame: Legos!

Seriously, Legos are the best things ever! :smallwink: you can make awesome models with them or use them to play Warhammer 40k or Dungeons and Dragons!

Claudius Maximus
2011-01-14, 12:09 PM
Well I don't think they would stop production unless the minis weren't selling.

Maybe once the majority of the groups were finished buying them the sales plummeted. It would just make sense to stop them. I know I wouldn't be making them at a loss.

true_shinken
2011-01-14, 12:12 PM
I want my minis! I'm going to cry >.<

Grollub
2011-01-14, 12:43 PM
No surprise their Miniatures line was tanking...their marketing department needs a serious infusion of a$$kicking. The first mistake they did was NOT offering any packs of mini's of a "collected" nature aka "goblin" packs, or "skeleton" packs.

IMO, that would have boosted sales hugely, as what DM doesn't need like 10 kobolds/ goblins/ skeletons/etc instead of having to buy endless packs and hope for the numbers of each mini you want.

Who knows wth the marketing department was thinking, but seriously it baffles me. When they have mini's so pre-dominant in 4E now.. and they drop the line.. WOW. I guess it goes to show you how hurting 4E sales are now, and maybe we'll see a return to 3.5 days :smallsmile:

true_shinken
2011-01-14, 12:45 PM
I guess it goes to show you how hurting 4E sales are now, and maybe we'll see a return to 3.5 days :smallsmile:

That's not gonna happen. At best, we'll get 5th edition sooner than expected. Maybe they'll hire people from the 3.5 staff to design it. I'd like to see a new D&D game with the heavy hitters behind it. I mean, Rob Heinsoo? Guy designed, like, a bad card game and they have him write a Player's Handbook. :smallconfused: James Wyatt is awesome, but Andy Collins has yet to make a name for himself. James Wyatt, Skipp Williams and Monte Cook? Now that is a designing team.

The Glyphstone
2011-01-14, 12:47 PM
No surprise their Miniatures line was tanking...their marketing department needs a serious infusion of a$$kicking. The first mistake they did was NOT offering any packs of mini's of a "collected" nature aka "goblin" packs, or "skeleton" packs.

IMO, that would have boosted sales hugely, as what DM doesn't need like 10 kobolds/ goblins/ skeletons/etc instead of having to buy endless packs and hope for the numbers of each mini you want.

Who knows wth the marketing department was thinking, but seriously it baffles me. When they have mini's so pre-dominant in 4E now.. and they drop the line.. WOW. I guess it goes to show you how hurting 4E sales are now, and maybe we'll see a return to 3.5 days :smallsmile:

Bring on 5E - monsters, classes, powers, feats, skills, and items will all be sold as 'stat cards' in randomized booster packs. Players will construct a deck for their PC and play cooperatively against the DM's encounter deck with such cards as 'Subservient Middle Management: +10 to all Diplomacy checks till end of turn'.:smallcool: Please Ao, don't let this happen...

satorian
2011-01-14, 01:04 PM
I'm pretty sure 5e will just be an iPhone app.

randomhero00
2011-01-14, 01:07 PM
Meh, I'm not worried. There's lots of minis from other games too. Warhammer for one.

edit: gawd I want to play a good campaign. I'm starting to actually consider a PbP.

Ozreth
2011-01-14, 01:31 PM
Meh, I'm not worried. There's lots of minis from other games too. Warhammer for one.

edit: gawd I want to play a good campaign. I'm starting to actually consider a PbP.

Ha same here. If you start a level 1 game, preferably Forgotten Realms let me know : )

Katana_Geldar
2011-01-14, 03:36 PM
Are they hoping to replace them with monster tokens?
I think so.

TroubleBrewing
2011-01-14, 03:48 PM
No surprise their Miniatures line was tanking...their marketing department needs a serious infusion of a$$kicking. The first mistake they did was NOT offering any packs of mini's of a "collected" nature aka "goblin" packs, or "skeleton" packs.

IMO, that would have boosted sales hugely, as what DM doesn't need like 10 kobolds/ goblins/ skeletons/etc instead of having to buy endless packs and hope for the numbers of each mini you want.

This is EXACTLY what I need. I would buy these by the truckload. Why didn't they ever do this?! :smallfurious:

Sipex
2011-01-14, 03:52 PM
I'll trade you for some Nightwalkers! Seriously, 5/7 packs I got were Nightwalkers...the other 2 were Fomorians. :smallfurious:

I'd kill for a nightwalker.

And some bodaks too. I have a quest coming up in a few levels which uses both.

edit: +1 on the themed pack idea, christ. My players fought legions of goblins near the beginning of the campaign and yet I've never owned a goblin mini.

Thurbane
2011-01-14, 06:41 PM
I'd kill for a nightwalker.

And some bodaks too. I have a quest coming up in a few levels which uses both.

edit: +1 on the themed pack idea, christ. My players fought legions of goblins near the beginning of the campaign and yet I've never owned a goblin mini.
Must have been something about the Giants of Legend packs shipped to Australia...two of my friends also bought packs, and I think from 10 or 11 packs purchased between us, we ended up with like 8 or 9 Nightwalkers. :smallfrown:

This is EXACTLY what I need. I would buy these by the truckload. Why didn't they ever do this?! :smallfurious:
Indeed - this was a topic I hotly debated back in my Enworld forum days. To me, themed packs for use in pen and paper games was a no brainer. But no, it seems the MTG mentality had taught WotC that the way to sell things is in randomized, "collectable" packs...:smalleek:

Ranielle
2011-01-14, 07:12 PM
I'm sure there are a lot of places one can get his fantasy miniatures which will be of better quality anyway.

I love how they couldn't manage to market their products and now closing shop. They should have given up with this "buy booster packs get random stuff" a long time ago, if I didn't know better I'd say they were a bit thick. How can you not think about selling the miniatures in groups or one by one? Many companies are making a lot of cash like that.

Reverent-One
2011-01-14, 07:24 PM
I love how they couldn't manage to market their products and now closing shop. They should have given up with this "buy booster packs get random stuff" a long time ago, if I didn't know better I'd say they were a bit thick. How can you not think about selling the miniatures in groups or one by one? Many companies are making a lot of cash like that.

Why are you assuming they never thought of that? They probably had, and chose not too. They're not the only company to sell miniatures in random packs.

Psyren
2011-01-14, 07:24 PM
I'm pretty sure 5e will just be an iPhone app.

Honestly, I see nothing wrong with this. The cost of painstakingly making these things was obviously not worth the revenue they were bringing in. And when they tried to cut costs/rush them, the quality suffered and interest waned even more.

Better to focus their efforts on hybridizing D&D with graphic arts, and push towards the tablet PC gamers imo.

AslanCross
2011-01-14, 07:30 PM
I'm sure there are a lot of places one can get his fantasy miniatures which will be of better quality anyway.

I love how they couldn't manage to market their products and now closing shop. They should have given up with this "buy booster packs get random stuff" a long time ago, if I didn't know better I'd say they were a bit thick. How can you not think about selling the miniatures in groups or one by one? Many companies are making a lot of cash like that.

I heard in a podcast that they had considered it and thought it would end up in disaster because you'd have miniatures that nobody wants and miniatures that everyone wants. At least with the randomized packaging the miniatures get sold.

I'm not so sure how sensible this line of thinking is, however, as you have mentioned that say, Games Workshop is able to sell singles in Warhammer.

Thurbane
2011-01-14, 07:30 PM
I'm sure there are a lot of places one can get his fantasy miniatures which will be of better quality anyway.
True, but these are generally unpainted metal minis...which, for the reasons above, aren't ideally suited for me (and others I know).

As I said earlier, I wish more mini companies would try to launch their own range of prepainted plastic minis...

I'm not so sure how sensible this line of thinking is, however, as you have mentioned that say, Games Workshop is able to sell singles in Warhammer.
Quite nonsensical, IMHO...almost everyone I know who plays the game, and a lot of people I have discussed it with online, would have loved to be able to buy non-random packs of DDM.

True, some online resellers offers rebundled DDM, but that's not always viable for people, especially those outside of the USA.

Reverent-One
2011-01-14, 07:35 PM
I'm not so sure how sensible this line of thinking is, however, as you have mentioned that say, Games Workshop is able to sell singles in Warhammer.

Singles that cost twice as much or more as a full booster of D&D minis.

Thurbane
2011-01-14, 07:36 PM
I'm not so sure how sensible this line of thinking is, however, as you have mentioned that say, Games Workshop is able to sell singles in Warhammer.
Quite nonsensical, IMHO...almost everyone I know who plays the game, and a lot of people I have discussed it with online, would have loved to be able to buy non-random packs of DDM.

True, some online resellers offers rebundled DDM, but that's not always viable for people, especially those outside of the USA.

AslanCross
2011-01-14, 07:36 PM
Singles that cost twice as much or more as a full booster of D&D minis.

There is that. People still buy them, though.

Thurbane
2011-01-14, 07:39 PM
Singles that cost twice as much or more as a full booster of D&D minis.
If I could pay $36 AUD for 8 non-random minis I knew I could use in my tabletop game, as opposed to $18 AUD for 8 random minis, some of which I will no doubt already have, or minis that will never get used in my game, I'd consider it a reasonable trade...

Reverent-One
2011-01-14, 07:39 PM
There is that. People still buy them, though.

And how many expensive, needs to be constructed and painted minis games can the market support? With D&D minis, they were hitting a different market and lowering the cost to get into the game.

EDIT:

If I could pay $36 AUD for 8 non-random minis I knew I could use in my tabletop game, as opposed to $18 AUD for 8 random minis, some of which I will no doubt already have, or minis that will never get used in my game, I'd consider it a reasonable trade...

You would. But the question is would enough people do so, and how many such packs would you/they buy?

Jokes
2011-01-14, 07:44 PM
If the cancellation of the Star Wars line is any precedent, then my FLGS will start clearing out their stock of minis soon, so bargains to be had :smallcool:

AslanCross
2011-01-14, 07:48 PM
And how many expensive, needs to be constructed and painted minis games can the market support? With D&D minis, they were hitting a different market and lowering the cost to get into the game.


I don't know; I did say that I'm not really sure how much sense it made. I was saying I really didn't know, as opposed to saying that WOTC was stupid in doing this.

At the end of the day, the product is still a flop, and to think that it even dramatically dropped in quality when they attempted to change their product model.

Even with the lower cost relative to WH minis, D&D minis eventually became far more expensive than their quality could justify. The post I linked on the previous page shows that they began to look like cheap toy soldiers, which I definitely didn't want to spend 800 PHP (US$18) per box on, especially when I was not sure I'd get what I wanted.

TheWhisper
2011-01-14, 07:49 PM
I heard in a podcast that they had considered it and thought it would end up in disaster because you'd have miniatures that nobody wants and miniatures that everyone wants. At least with the randomized packaging the miniatures get sold.

I'm not so sure how sensible this line of thinking is, however, as you have mentioned that say, Games Workshop is able to sell singles in Warhammer.

Not to mention that other manufacturers manage to sell this sort of thing just fine.

http://www.miniature-giant.com/legendary-encounters-Reaper-c-784.html

Thurbane
2011-01-14, 07:49 PM
You would. But the question is would enough people do so, and how many such packs would you/they buy?
I guess we'll never know. :smallwink:

As I said, anecdotally, most everyone I know who buys minis would...

If the cancellation of the Star Wars line is any precedent, then my FLGS will start clearing out their stock of minis soon, so bargains to be had :smallcool:
Actually, that's a good point, I'll have to check out the stores. Looking at the online galleries, the quality of DDM seems to have picked up a little in the last few sets - if they're cheap enough, I might grab some.

AslanCross
2011-01-14, 07:52 PM
Not to mention that other manufacturers manage to sell this sort of thing just fine.

http://www.miniature-giant.com/legendary-encounters-Reaper-c-784.html

Exactly. I really wish I had an easy way to get Reaper minis here. There are numerous issues in payment, and shipping costs are often prohibitive. The FLGS doesn't carry them. Now, all they carry is WH and Arcane Heroes Legions.

Would Arcane Heroes Arcane Legions make a good substitute? I know the grunt packs are unpainted, but the named figures seem to be the right size and the FLGS sells them a lot cheaper relative to D&D minis.

TheWhisper
2011-01-14, 07:57 PM
Exactly. I really wish I had an easy way to get Reaper minis here. There are numerous issues in payment, and shipping costs are often prohibitive. The FLGS doesn't carry them. Now, all they carry is WH and Arcane Heroes Legions.

Have you no friends in Americaland?

I don't buy anything but Reaper, pretty much. GW minis are tacky and clunky and gaudy.

Thurbane
2011-01-14, 07:59 PM
Exactly. I really wish I had an easy way to get Reaper minis here. There are numerous issues in payment, and shipping costs are often prohibitive. The FLGS doesn't carry them. Now, all they carry is WH and Arcane Heroes Legions.
Living in Australia, I hear your pain...the shipping costs are the killer. :smallfrown:

Reverent-One
2011-01-14, 08:03 PM
I don't know; I did say that I'm not really sure how much sense it made. I was saying I really didn't know, as opposed to saying that WOTC was stupid in doing this.

Fair enough. I was just pointing out the difference between DDM and WH.


I guess we'll never know. :smallwink:

As I said, anecdotally, most everyone I know who buys minis would...

Again, how many would you/they buy?

Look at the existing minis games, I know that I've seen several of the expensive, build it yourself minis games (WH40k and WM, obviously), and a lot of cheap plastic random booster pack minis games (DDM/Star wars mins, all of the clix based games from Wizkids and now NECA, and the LoTR's plastic minis game). But games based on cheap plastic minis sold in pre-determined packs? Heroscape is the biggest (and almost the only) one I know of, and it has, as far as I know, never been as popular and successful as the random booster games have been at their heights.

Thurbane
2011-01-14, 08:06 PM
FWIW, here's a link top the thread at the official Wizards DDM minis forum: http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75866/26575685/Is_the_DDM_line_cancelled_or_not

...although no official representative seems to have posted as of yet.

Again, how many would you/they buy?
Very hard to say...now, not many, as through getting loose minis at my FLGS and some boosters I pretty much have all I will realistically need.

Back when I first started buying them, I would have bought maybe two to three times the amount I did, if they weren't randomized...

AslanCross
2011-01-14, 08:42 PM
Have you no friends in Americaland?


I have family, but they don't come over often, and while they like me fine enough, whether they're willing to pay the shipping in advance for me or not is another issue. My best bet is usually my uncle who lives in NJ and works in Manhattan, but usually I just ask him to get books instead of minis.


Living in Australia, I hear your pain...the shipping costs are the killer. :smallfrown:

If they even ship here in the first place. Sometimes they're not willing. :smallsigh: Then there's the Really Evil Customs Bureau. They charge exhorbitant amounts of money (sometimes several times the value of the item) for "overnight holding fees." It's why the FLGS doesn't restock often---the owner actually flies to the US or Singapore to pick up his merch and brings it back home with him.

Claudius Maximus
2011-01-14, 09:01 PM
It must be a drag to live somewhere where shipping makes your hobbies exorbitantly expensive.

Are there no Asian or Australian companies that make such things?

Shatteredtower
2011-01-14, 10:46 PM
I prefer tokens to minis. Cheaper, easier to transport. less clutter on the map.

As for random packs, they were always too caveat emptor for my tastes. I like to know what I'm buying.

Thurbane
2011-01-14, 11:06 PM
Are there no Asian or Australian companies that make such things?
Not in Australia, anyway. There might be some small, indy developers, but if so, I've not seen their presence in any FLGS.

AslanCross
2011-01-14, 11:12 PM
It must be a drag to live somewhere where shipping makes your hobbies exorbitantly expensive.

Are there no Asian or Australian companies that make such things?

I think only Japan has any gaming companies that aren't into video games. Maybe Korea does. Even then, their products are usually different from D&D-related/compatible material in Europe or NA.

The best place in Asia to buy D&D-related material is probably Singapore. While I don't get books on discount there like I do here, the material I'm able to buy there is not available here. (In the Philippines, all that's left is setting-related material. I was able to get Red Hand of Doom, MM3, and MIC in Singapore.)

Thurbane
2011-01-14, 11:15 PM
After all this talk of minis, I went to my FLGS and bought 3 booster packs of Lords of Madness. The quality actually isn't too bad compared to other sets...seems like a bit of return to form some point after Dungeons of Dread...

Tyrant
2011-01-14, 11:27 PM
I love how they couldn't manage to market their products and now closing shop.
They had 21 sets. The first set came out in late 2003. That's a 7 year run. Even Star Wars Minis, part of an empire that more or less sells itself, can't claim that. Has it declined, obviously. The real problem was a while ago when the skirmish game switched to 2.0 rules and they originally announced that they were only going to update the 3 most recent sets. Even though they later changed their tune and updated them all, the mass exodus had begun. Then there were other great decisions like "Hey, let's not make cards for the skirmish game anymore. Our market research (asking this one guy, somewhere, apparently) tells us that 5000% of our sales are for RPG and skirmish doesn't matter, even though we saw that huge drop when we upset the skirmish palyers." This was followed by trying to answer the "give us non random minis" complaints. That also did not help and helped prove their point that the visible minis no one wants will just sit on shelves. That's why they went back to random for Lords of Madness. Of course, I'm sure the down economy had absolutely no impact on the sales of a luxory good. Just as I am sure the decline in sales has nothing to do with said luxory good being tied to a new, and in some corners deeply despised, edition of the RPG. It must be their lack of marketing skills.

They should have given up with this "buy booster packs get random stuff" a long time ago, if I didn't know better I'd say they were a bit thick.
Yeah, 21 sets over 7 years. Clearly they had no idea what they were doing and should have dropped that whole crazy random idea years ago when it wasn't selling.

How can you not think about selling the miniatures in groups or one by one? Many companies are making a lot of cash like that.
I sat through a few D&D miniatures seminars at GenCon over the years. I can tell you, for a fact, that they are aware of the idea. It was only asked about every year, usually in some depth. The answer was always "The distributors won't go for it. We've asked." Now, it's your choice if you believe that or not, but that was always the answer. I know in the middle of the usual WizBro hate a thon it is tough to realise that they don't just sit around, think of what they know we would want, and then purposefully not give us anything like that. They know what people want. They also know (or at least are being told by people who should know) that a lot of things simply won't sell as well as they would need to to justify productions and design cost, or they will have to be sold at an outrageous price. Personally, I believe them. It is to their obvious detriment to go against their customers without a pretty good reason.

I'm not saying they don't make mistakes. I believe their first, and biggest, mistake was believing whatever source was telling them what percentage of their sales was for RPG purposes and what percentage was for skirmish. Or possibly not realizing that there was considerable crossover that allowed people to justify large purposes. The switch to 2.0 wouldn't have been nearly as disasterous if they would have said upfront that they were going to convert all of the old stats to 2.0. Some people would have still left (don't like the new skirmish game, hate 4.0, whatever), but I believe it would not have been a mass exodus. Their next big mistake was a continuation of the last. They stopped making skirmish cards, again assuming the RPG sales could carry them through (despite now having compelling evidence to the contrary). In my mind, one of the other big problems was that they had big prizes at GenCon for Star Wars Minis (if I am recalling correctly) but not D&D Minis. This was while other games were also having noticeable prizes. It just felt like the game wasn't supported as much. There were other problems, but I believe those were the big ones.

As for anyone wanting goblins, skeletons, zombies, orcs, etc, they are quite cheap on the secondary market (so long as you aren't hung up on one from Harbinger or a Rare). The Drow cost a little more though. After the first 8 sets or so, there is no real reason to buy boosters for those monsters.

Mando Knight
2011-01-20, 01:26 AM
Bring on 5E - monsters, classes, powers, feats, skills, and items will all be sold as 'stat cards' in randomized booster packs. Players will construct a deck for their PC and play cooperatively against the DM's encounter deck with such cards as 'Subservient Middle Management: +10 to all Diplomacy checks till end of turn'.:smallcool: Please Ao, don't let this happen...

I think Steve Jackson games did something like that already (http://www.worldofmunchkin.com/), after cutting out the middleman (that is, the DM).