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Cealocanth
2011-01-13, 11:43 PM
It's not something that I'm currently worried about, but I'm curious. Based on my campaign world and how it works, I've made quite a few changes to races and classes alike in order to make them make sense. Now, luckily no one in my party is currently subssectable to these changes that exist, but I'm curious on what'll happen in the next party when the races and classes get more exotic. Here's where I can list the changes off the top of my head, and I'd like to know if this is a bit too much for a party to handle.

1: Wizards suffer a magic "backlash" on a natural 1 that deals 1d6+the level of the spell damage in burns and electric effects. Every "miss" of a spell will increase the chances of this by 1 die result.

2: Sorcerers, due to the presence of Astralite in their blood, will slowly accumulate mutations over their life. Every 2 levels, a new pair of mutations is gained at random, with the extremity of these increasing over the levels.

3: Shamans can't die. Due to their location between the Spirit World and the Astral Plane, a Shaman is not killed, but destroyed. It is more difficult to raise a shaman than a normal creature, and takes significantly longer.

4: No Devas. Period.

5: Shardminds are extremely radioactive, but my level 1, most Shardminds can suppress their radiation to less than a millimeter above their surface. A Shardmind cannot be touched without severe radiation damage, but they can be stood in the presence of without vaporization. When the shardmind is willing to, it can "detonate" itself, releasing vaporizing radiation levels into the room with the just of an Atomic bomb, but the raw astralite remains of the shardmind are destroyed, along with most everything else.

6: Dopplegangers, due to the nature of the fungal parasite that inhabits their body, can only transform themselves to creatures of a simimilar build. ie, humans can go to elves, githzerai, and other humanoids, but cannot transform into large creatures such as dragonborn and orcs. simmiklarily, halflings will have difficulty transforming into creatures larger than them, such as humans and elves.

7: Creatures that use Psionic magic have to use a tool known as the Psionic belt. In other words, in order for a Psion to use it's magic, it has to "draw" the power source out of it's "sheath". This costs a minor action.

There are others, I'm sure. But for now, let's work off of the concept of these things. So the question is, am I changing too much?

DragonBaneDM
2011-01-14, 12:09 AM
1. Wizards are fragile as is. The backlash feature makes them termanilly ill.

2. Awesome. Keep it, but make sure the mutations are based off of what type of Sorcery they follow.

3. No one in your campaign has a suicide wish I hope, so therefore would never touch the shaman. Should make for an interesting and self sacrificing NPC, a very interesting feature.

4. Good. Things bug the crap out of me.

5. I can see that Shardmind feature backfiring on you whenever you make a villian you intend to be recurring and grow in power level to match the adventurers. Level 7 shardmind PC goes boom on him for killing his old character. Also, it makes it way too easy for you to TPK. Rationalize why an obvioulsy dying shardmind they fight wouldn't detonate itself on it's last turn with 5 hp. The shardmind "monsters" are Heroic Tier, so a nuke would most definately be lethal.

6. Interesting. I like that they all seem to have a "native race".

7. The Psionic power belt could be interesting... Provided it's once an encounter they have to draw this. Once a round totally and utterly screws that power source.

Excession
2011-01-14, 12:12 AM
1: Wizards suffer a magic "backlash" on a natural 1 that deals 1d6+the level of the spell damage in burns and electric effects. Every "miss" of a spell will increase the chances of this by 1 die result.

Result: no wizard PCs, lots more Invokers and Psions. Doing this to a class that lives and breaths multiple attacks seems harsh.



2: Sorcerers, due to the presence of Astralite in their blood, will slowly accumulate mutations over their life. Every 2 levels, a new pair of mutations is gained at random, with the extremity of these increasing over the levels.

I would probably skip Sorcerer in favour or a Warlock then. Depends on what these mutations do of course. If I can grow an extra pair of arms and houserule in "Quad Implement Spellcaster" then I'm all for it. :smallwink:



5: Shardminds are extremely radioactive, but my level 1, most Shardminds can suppress their radiation to less than a millimeter above their surface. A Shardmind cannot be touched without severe radiation damage, but they can be stood in the presence of without vaporization. When the shardmind is willing to, it can "detonate" itself, releasing vaporizing radiation levels into the room with the just of an Atomic bomb, but the raw astralite remains of the shardmind are destroyed, along with most everything else.


Totally playing a naked Shardmind Monk now. Free bonus damage sounds sweet; ongoing 5 (save ends) on any touch is it? Also, I'm going to explode your plot at the worst most hilarious possible moment.



There are others, I'm sure. But for now, let's work off of the concept of these things. So the question is, am I changing too much?

Yes, I think you're going too far. Mostly this is because I don't understand what you're trying to achieve with these changes. So my serious answer is in the form of a question: why?

zorba1994
2011-01-14, 12:14 AM
With the exception of the Wizard one (which may unbalance the game; however, if you make similar penalties for fumbles on natural 1s [that result in either combat advantage to the enemy, damage against self, falling prone, or dropping the weapon etc.] that may cancel it out). The rest of the options seem fine, as they pretty much only add flavor, not any game-changing aspects.

Thomo
2011-01-14, 12:15 AM
1: Wizards suffer a magic "backlash" on a natural 1 that deals 1d6+the level of the spell damage in burns and electric effects. Every "miss" of a spell will increase the chances of this by 1 die result.

2: Sorcerers, due to the presence of Astralite in their blood, will slowly accumulate mutations over their life. Every 2 levels, a new pair of mutations is gained at random, with the extremity of these increasing over the levels.

3: Shamans can't die. Due to their location between the Spirit World and the Astral Plane, a Shaman is not killed, but destroyed. It is more difficult to raise a shaman than a normal creature, and takes significantly longer.

4: No Devas. Period.

5: Shardminds are extremely radioactive, but my level 1, most Shardminds can suppress their radiation to less than a millimeter above their surface. A Shardmind cannot be touched without severe radiation damage, but they can be stood in the presence of without vaporization. When the shardmind is willing to, it can "detonate" itself, releasing vaporizing radiation levels into the room with the just of an Atomic bomb, but the raw astralite remains of the shardmind are destroyed, along with most everything else.

6: Dopplegangers, due to the nature of the fungal parasite that inhabits their body, can only transform themselves to creatures of a simimilar build. ie, humans can go to elves, githzerai, and other humanoids, but cannot transform into large creatures such as dragonborn and orcs. simmiklarily, halflings will have difficulty transforming into creatures larger than them, such as humans and elves.

7: Creatures that use Psionic magic have to use a tool known as the Psionic belt. In other words, in order for a Psion to use it's magic, it has to "draw" the power source out of it's "sheath". This costs a minor action.

There are others, I'm sure. But for now, let's work off of the concept of these things. So the question is, am I changing too much?

1. Ok, I can see how that could work. Having it increase for every miss though seems a little harsh. How about having the risk increase for encounters and dailies (i.e. a 1 for an at-will, 1-2 for an encounter and a 1-3 for daily?). This makes the more powerful spelss riskier to cast, but doesn't unduly punish players for having plain old bad luck.

2. What do you mean by mutations? How do these affect the game?

3. Ok.

4. That's fine and perfectly reasonable.

5. So you are giving anyone who plays a shardmind the ability to go 'nova' and end the campaign whenever they want? Can't say I'm a fan of this one. Quite possibly game breaking.

6. Makes sense, but this is why I think that changelings are limited to medium sized creatures. Still, this seems justifiable and reasonable.

7. I would be pretty pissed off if my DM pulled this one on me. You are making the player sacrifice part his turn just to use his class abilities?

As it stands it kind of looks like you want everyone to play a melee character or a cleric...

MeeposFire
2011-01-14, 12:21 AM
Does this psionic sheath thing apply to battleminds and the like? It seems awfully unfair to them and classes like them. It also makes multiclassing a big pain in the butt or hybriding.

1) Do not like. It think flavor of them being shocked is fun but actual damage seems excessive and why just wizards? Why not swordmages and the like?

2) Good idea assuming the mutations themselves do not have a large mechanical impact on the game aspect such as a -10 to diplomacy checks would be a bad idea.

3) Is this because you do not like shamans or you just do not want people to play them?

4) That's fine.

5) I think this is way too dangerous or the game and I agree with DragonBane.

6) It is fine though I do not see it being necessary but it should not be a problem.

7) I personally think this is just rather unfair to psionic classes especially since they are normally said to be about the power of the self. Further psions and the like need to pull out their implement to be effective so they already need to do this physically to be useful. I do think it hurts balance especially for classes outside of psion. battleminds would have a harder time marking and similar problems.

Feel free to agree or disagree.

WitchSlayer
2011-01-14, 12:54 AM
Well, I can near guarantee you that no one is going to play a wizard or psion in your game.

DragonBaneDM
2011-01-14, 01:59 AM
Does this psionic sheath thing apply to battleminds and the like? It seems awfully unfair to them and classes like them. It also makes multiclassing a big pain in the butt or hybriding.

Snipsies

7) I personally think this is just rather unfair to psionic classes especially since they are normally said to be about the power of the self. Further psions and the like need to pull out their implement to be effective so they already need to do this physically to be useful. I do think it hurts balance especially for classes outside of psion. battleminds would have a harder time marking and similar problems.

Feel free to agree or disagree.

Totally agreed. Psionic is a lot like martial in that the classes don't get power from nature, gods, or any outside force. Ardents have psychic feelings, battleminds...mutate or something?, psions are born that way and monks...may be your exception.

Actually, nevermind. Every last one of those classes NEEDS it's minor actions, even Psions, though to a lesser extent. Marking, healing, bonus damage, all minor actions for the Psionics family.

Kurald Galain
2011-01-14, 03:49 AM
Overall, you aren't changing "too much" as the system can handle that. However, some of your changes have issues.

(1) that's pretty nasty, and considering the best wizard spells are huge area effects, it will probably occur a lot. Also, there's a loophole in that several good wizard spells don't have attack rolls in the first place. How about something simple like "whenever a wizard casts an arcane spell, he gets +1 to hit but takes damage equal to the spell level"?

(2) I like the idea, but its effect depends heavily on what kind of mutations these are. What about multiclass characters?

(3) Assuming characters in your game don't die on a regular basis, this is ok.

(4) Sure.

(5) What does this do against an enemy that's grappling the shardmind? Also, players will find a way to abuse Final Strike mechanics in your game. I'd suggest something like "Anyone grappling a shardmind, or grappled by a shardmind, takes 5 ongoing damage, save ends. 10 at paragon, 15 at epic. As a standard action, a shardmind can self-destruct, dealing 3d10 damage in a 10-square radius, and killing himself".

(6) No problem. Note that orcs and d'born aren't "large" in game terms, though.

(7) Does he have to spend a minor action for each power activation? That's going to make psions hard to play. Also, why would you have to draw an item from a sheath in order to use a mental power?

Sploosh
2011-01-14, 09:00 AM
As it stands it kind of looks like you want everyone to play a melee character or a cleric...


Well, I can near guarantee you that no one is going to play a wizard or psion in your game.

I gotta' agree with these. If I had to choose between an invoker which is pretty damn close to a wizard and a wizard, there isnt really a point taking the one that is going to severely hammered.

Same goes for psionics, why play a class that uses a power source that makes them lose one of their actions and an item slot when there are plenty of classes that are comparable without being neutered?

So I guess the answer to your question is this: What is too much? If making several classes simply unappealing to their alternatives is too much, then yes.

Sipex
2011-01-14, 09:21 AM
For wizards and their backlash I'd change it to something similar to the Sorceror. On a natural 1 they push everything away in a burst 1 centered on them.

Or maybe for every spell they cast the gain the spells level in a cumulative bonus they can choose to expend ONCE at any time. But in doing so they take damage equal to the bonus. This bonus dispels after 5 minutes or a short rest.

IE: A wizard casts a level 1 spell and a level 2 spell. He now has a +3 bonus he can expend on any attack roll but in doing so he'll take 3 damage.

Salbazier
2011-01-14, 10:24 AM
why does wizard and psionic class need nerf anyway? If this is 3.5 I can undestand (for wizard's) but this is 4E. I'l answer your question with "yes, it's too much"

Gwillednt
2011-01-14, 10:42 AM
Wow.

Wizards are already sort of a weak class in some ways. I play a very effective one, compared to the rest of my party who is not built too well, and I'm barely ahead.

So mechanically, number one is just plain terrible. Flavor wise it makes even less sense. Wizards STUDY, shouldn't SORCERORS be the ones who get backlash flavor wise?

Shardminds, if they are radioactive as you said, can't be effectively thrown. their explosion is simply too powerful, or you have to use them way above their EL, in which case that's ALL they can do effectively.

Psions using their minor actions to use a belt?

Man, you REALLY don't like magical classes, is all I can garner from the things you listed.

nerfs to magic make sense in 3.5, in 4e the power system basically makes this much less noticeable in combat, so I don't get what you're trying to do here, at all.

Oracle_Hunter
2011-01-14, 11:12 AM
...yeah, why are you doing this?

Most of your modifications will simply cause Players to choose races & classes that aren't gimped but otherwise act similarly. As long as you understand that Players aren't going to be attracted to the changes you made, that's fine - it's your campaign, after all.

That said, the Shardmind mod is the most prone to abuse. Note that coming back from the dead gets much easier as you ascend the Tiers. I can see an Epic Shardmind doing a "Lethal Hug" on the first round of combat to the BBEG and the revive on the second.

If you're just trying to add more "flavor" to the characters, it'd be better to frame them as advantages rather than penalties. They make them more attractive to Players while also allowing you to flavor the game as you'd like.

For example give Shamans the ability to appear as Force Ghosts when they're dead - they can still talk and interact with people who know them well (i.e. the PCs) but can't use any Powers. This gives Shaman the same sort of "ghost-walker" feel you're going for while giving them a small but concrete advantage rather than a disadvantage.

Kurald Galain
2011-01-14, 11:14 AM
Wizards are already sort of a weak class in some ways.
Where did you get that idea? In my experience they're one of the most powerful classes printed.

Gwillednt
2011-01-14, 11:19 AM
Where did you get that idea? In my experience they're one of the most powerful classes printed.

In 4th? I suppose, but I've never played in a campaign that EVER uses minions. Ever.

Without minions, they lose a lot. That being said, I still said in some ways. They lack ways of doing awesome damamge, and my experience is at 10th level and below, where most of thier abilities last one turn (very few save ends), and the one that does (sleep) needs them to fail two saves. Most things will roll at least one save, since they are at worst (barring orb shenanagins) 55% likely to save.

Kurald Galain
2011-01-14, 11:26 AM
Without minions, they lose a lot. That being said, I still said in some ways. They lack ways of doing awesome damamge, and my experience is at 10th level and below, where most of thier abilities last one turn (very few save ends), and the one that does (sleep) needs them to fail two saves.
What about Flaming Sphere, Stinking Cloud, and Wall of Fire? Large amounts of automatic damage for the rest of the encounter.

Heck, what about pushing groups of enemies off a cliff, at-will?

Gwillednt
2011-01-14, 11:31 AM
What about Flaming Sphere, Stinking Cloud, and Wall of Fire? Large amounts of automatic damage for the rest of the encounter.

Heck, what about pushing groups of enemies off a cliff, at-will?

I dunno. I'm still at level 7, I haven't got wall of fire or anything. As for pushing enemies off the cliff at will, you assume a hell of lot, none of which I've seen yet.

Also, isn't a wall stationary? Most things would move out of it, unless you're fighting in an enclosed area, which again, I don't see much of.

1. There's a cliff (HUGE assumption)
2. The DM doesn't ignore the saving throw every time you forced move something off an edge.

Oracle_Hunter
2011-01-14, 11:46 AM
1. There's a cliff (HUGE assumption)
2. The DM doesn't ignore the saving throw every time you forced move something off an edge.
Well, most 4E DMs eventually wise-up to the usefulness of having encounters where Push/Pull effects are meaningful - and that means pits etc.

Wizards, of course, can make their own damaging terrain to push people into. That's what Wall of Fire is for :smallamused:

But if your DM is "ignoring" those saves, you should speak to him about it. If he is going to houserule things, he should have told you beforehand - and allow you to respec.

Also: Even if your DM doesn't use Minions, Burst/Blast effects are a great way of nuking your way through Encounters. Personally, I love Minions but I've played with DMs who don't use them. It just means I devote more of my build to single-target debuffs and ignore anti-minion powers; frees up design space :smallbiggrin:

Gwillednt
2011-01-14, 11:50 AM
Well, most 4E DMs eventually wise-up to the usefulness of having encounters where Push/Pull effects are meaningful - and that means pits etc.

Wizards, of course, can make their own damaging terrain to push people into. That's what Wall of Fire is for :smallamused:

But if your DM is "ignoring" those saves, you should speak to him about it. If he is going to houserule things, he should have told you beforehand - and allow you to respec.

Also: Even if your DM doesn't use Minions, Burst/Blast effects are a great way of nuking your way through Encounters. Personally, I love Minions but I've played with DMs who don't use them. It just means I devote more of my build to single-target debuffs and ignore anti-minion powers; frees up design space :smallbiggrin:

Like I said, I still do pretty well with my wizard, I focus in stuff like attacks that daze or inflict debuffs, but my point is that wizards are not in any way needing of the ridiculous nerf listed by the OP

Kurald Galain
2011-01-14, 11:52 AM
I dunno. I'm still at level 7, I haven't got wall of fire or anything. Also, isn't a wall stationary? Most things would move out of it,
Okay, you play wizards? Good. I offer you the following strategy: on turn one, cast Grasping Shadows (L1 encounter power). On turn two, find anything that moved out of there, and push it back in. That is, target a 4x4 area of enemies, and deal approx 1d6+10+slow to them. If you use Stinking Cloud (L5 daily) instead of Grasping Shadows, that would be around 1d6+2d10+15+blocking line of sight, and you can keep doing that for the rest of the encounter.

This does assume you have Thunderwave and Enlarge Spell, but if you don't, now's the time to retrain. Note that unlike pushing off cliffs, pushing into zones or walls does not grant a saving throw.

Try that for a few sessions. Then ask your DM if he considers the wizard a weak class :smallbiggrin:



Aaaaanyway, getting back to the OP - why no devas? In a game that has living plants, living crystals, minotaurs, and demonbred, why is it a big deal to play a reincarnating blue dude?

Gwillednt
2011-01-14, 11:56 AM
Okay, you play wizards? Good. I offer you the following strategy: on turn one, cast Grasping Shadows (L1 encounter power). On turn two, find anything that moved out of there, and push it back in. That is, target a 4x4 area of enemies, and deal approx 1d6+10+slow to them. If you use Stinking Cloud (L5 daily) instead of Grasping Shadows, that would be around 1d6+2d10+15+blocking line of sight, and you can keep doing that for the rest of the encounter.

This does assume you have Thunderwave and Enlarge Spell, but if you don't, now's the time to retrain. Note that unlike pushing off cliffs, pushing into zones or walls does not grant a saving throw.

Try that for a few sessions. Then ask your DM if he considers the wizard a weak class :smallbiggrin:



Aaaaanyway, getting back to the OP - why no devas? In a game that has living plants, living crystals, minotaurs, and demonbred, why is it a big deal to play a reincarnating blue dude?

Heh, don't think I don't know those things can be useful. But my DM always does crap outside, with all the enemies about 50 feet away from each other.
He's got a real hard-on for nature stuff, so most of my zones can't hit more than enemy.

Sipex
2011-01-14, 11:59 AM
Agreed that Wizards are bad-ass if played correctly.

You need to take the approach, that, as a wizard, your job isn't only about hitting several things and debilitating enemies (although it is very much about those things too) but also about controlling the field through denial. This will depend on your DMs playing style but you'll either have enemies which avoid zones like the plague or enemies which crash through zones with no regard to their own health or (if they DM plays tactically) a mix of both depending on how the enemy is built.

If you play your zones right you can corral your enemies where you want them to go or keep them away from where you don't want them to go. You place the zones in places where they will be or want to go and you're effectively controlling the field.

(Web is amazing for this and our Wizard abuses the hell out of it. Place a web between your party and a group of melee based monsters and you're set for a while.

Oracle_Hunter
2011-01-14, 12:05 PM
Aaaaanyway, getting back to the OP - why no devas? In a game that has living plants, living crystals, minotaurs, and demonbred, why is it a big deal to play a reincarnating blue dude?
Differn' strokes for differn' folks, I guess.

I mean, I love Devas because of the implications of their unique life-cycle - constant rebirth with shadowy memories of past lives? Man, that changes a world!

...of course, I always refluff them because the standard fluff doesn't really do anything with it.

Interestingly, I hate Shardminds and Wilden because they don't seem to have a point. Shardminds are living rocks and Wilden are mobile plants... that act just like every other adventuring race. Wilden, in particular, are bizzare in that they just mimic other races for no good reason. They're incarnations of nature's wrath - why are they hanging out in taverns getting Plot Coupons? :smallconfused:

I mean, I have them in my campaign (having everyone is the point of the setting) but WTF?

Mando Knight
2011-01-14, 01:25 PM
Try that for a few sessions. Then ask your DM if he considers the wizard a weak class :smallbiggrin:

Another one that can catch DMs by surprise is the Psion. Only At-wills, that don't gain an instant +1 die in Epic? Sounds like a bad design, right? Well, not really, when a Telepath can use Psychic Lock on 70% of his powers to shut down your attacks completely (Dishearten Augment 2 can easily inflict a -6 to attacks at level 11, and that's a level 1 power. At-will, it inflicts a -4. Assuming you're using Psychic Lock, of course), and Betrayal turns your strongest monster into his strongest weapon. At will. From level 3. Brutes are generally fairly weak, but with a Telepath Psion and a Brute's fairly large MBA and generally low Will, they become utterly useless to their group. Add in an Accurate or Crystal Orb and the Essentials Orb Expertise feat and it gets worse.

Gwillednt
2011-01-14, 01:27 PM
Another one that can catch DMs by surprise is the Psion. Only At-wills, that don't gain an instant +1 die in Epic? Sounds like a bad design, right? Well, not really, when a Telepath can use Psychic Lock on 70% of his powers to shut down your attacks completely (Dishearten Augment 2 can easily inflict a -6 to attacks at level 11, and that's a level 1 power. At-will, it inflicts a -4. Assuming you're using Psychic Lock, of course), and Betrayal turns your strongest monster into his strongest weapon. At will. From level 3. Brutes are generally fairly weak, but with a Telepath Psion and a Brute's fairly large MBA and generally low Will, they become utterly useless to their group. Add in an Accurate or Crystal Orb and the Essentials Orb Expertise feat and it gets worse.

Heh, my other character for our "once every few months when some players have to miss" campaign is a psion. I love it."

Oracle_Hunter
2011-01-14, 01:57 PM
Heh, my other character for our "once every few months when some players have to miss" campaign is a psion. I love it."
Favorite Telepath Psion prank:

When the Telepath is using his Encounter Sending at you, always reply with a question :smallbiggrin:

Cealocanth
2011-01-14, 05:46 PM
So clearly the wizard's "backlash" is a bit much. The question is, in order to make the concept work, there's going to have to be something else.

The concept behind the wizard's "backlash" is that wizards gain their arcane power by attracting and pinpointing Ley Lines, in my world, these are Astral energy transference between the Astral Plane (forming a ring around the planet that can be seen in the night sky) and the planet's surface. in order to gain the required amount of Astral Energy, wizards must re-direct these magical lightning bolts into some sort of storage device, then gradually unleash the power in the form of spells. In a way, it's like channeling a bolt of lightning through your body, failure will probably hurt, a lot. So what If I just left the backlash occur on a critical failure, misses meaning that the spell was channeled, it just missed. I could possibly dumb down the damage as well.

As for the mutations on the Sorcerer, I'm using a modified version of the mutation rules I found on D&D wiki. It's balanced because for every bad mutation, a good one is found, and the system of mutation points keeps the benefits and penalties more or less equal.

And Shardmind monks, huh? Didn't think about that.

As for no Devas? It's what they are. Devas are the mortal incarnation of the servants of gods. They reincarnate because their soul literally makes itself a new body with all the memories of the old. It just doesn't work. There are no physical gods in my campaign, nor are there their servants. All that's sort of spiritual are creatures of raw Astral Energy that are created when a person with enough Astral Energy within them die and they inhabit the Energy, placing them in the Spirit World, the Afterlife of a sort. Similarity, there are no Rakashahs.

I actually prefer the "ghost walker" idea over the simple destruction idea. it actually makes more sense, how instead of imply dying, they shift a bit further into the realm of the dead instead of off the line completely. In time, a shaman can find a new body, I'm sure, but a ritual will be required to re-bind the lost shaman soul.

And as for the Psionic Belt, it;s not actually a belt. Every creature has remote psionic abilities due to the presence of Astralite in the brain tissue. Psions and other Psionic magic users have to train to amplify their psionic ability, by both rigorous training and radioactive amplification. After that, still, a psion can only move a rock about an inch before almost all of their energy is sapped away. This is why most Psions are trained in the Psionic Belt, in a way, they create their own mini Astral Plane from the energies around them, creating a personal Astral Energy generator. With this, they can draw from replenishing energies to fuel their psychic power. After a while, they have to be dropped, due to the threat of prolonged radiation exposure. (The Psionic Belt takes the form of a glowing ring of energy, whether it's around the waist, around or above the head like a halo. around a wrist or a finger, or around a weapon such as a staff.) Psions still cast their spells with their minds and under their own skill and abilities, all that has to be done to create a font of replenishing magical energy is to spend a minor action to summon your psionic belt for the combat.

Oracle_Hunter
2011-01-14, 06:00 PM
The concept behind the wizard's "backlash" is that wizards gain their arcane power by attracting and pinpointing Ley Lines, in my world, these are Astral energy transference between the Astral Plane (forming a ring around the planet that can be seen in the night sky) and the planet's surface. in order to gain the required amount of Astral Energy, wizards must re-direct these magical lightning bolts into some sort of storage device, then gradually unleash the power in the form of spells. In a way, it's like channeling a bolt of lightning through your body, failure will probably hurt, a lot. So what If I just left the backlash occur on a critical failure, misses meaning that the spell was channeled, it just missed. I could possibly dumb down the damage as well.
Instead of damage, how about the mischanneled force knocks the Wizard prone when he rolls a Natural 1? Ideally he'd get an extra boost when he rolls a Natural 20 - like doing Ongoing 5 Lightning damage or Push +1?

Cealocanth
2011-01-14, 06:24 PM
Instead of damage, how about the mischanneled force knocks the Wizard prone when he rolls a Natural 1? Ideally he'd get an extra boost when he rolls a Natural 20 - like doing Ongoing 5 Lightning damage or Push +1?

I like that idea better. When a wizard fails to challenge the Ley Line, the energy will attempt to find the nearest source of Astralite. naturally this will result in a small explosion, Knocking the wizard prone. On the contrasting side, when a wizard critically succeeds, it will mean that the released energy has decided the enemy was the ideal target, causing an explosion that throws them prone.

Thanks, not only is that less hard on the wizard, it balances on the spectrum of success vs. failure. I think I still have the right as a DM to say that the failed release caused some minor burns, though, but I won't count true damage for that.

WitchSlayer
2011-01-14, 06:30 PM
Well no Devas is, like, whatever. I wouldn't allow Devas in my Dark Sun campaign, for instance.

Oracle_Hunter
2011-01-14, 06:54 PM
Oh, and if you make the "Psionic Belts" a replacement for the normal Foci for Psionic types then you'll make life easier for everyone.

Excession
2011-01-14, 07:13 PM
And as for the Psionic Belt, it;s not actually a belt. Every creature has remote psionic abilities due to the presence of Astralite in the brain tissue. Psions and other Psionic magic users have to train to amplify their psionic ability, by both rigorous training and radioactive amplification. After that, still, a psion can only move a rock about an inch before almost all of their energy is sapped away. This is why most Psions are trained in the Psionic Belt, in a way, they create their own mini Astral Plane from the energies around them, creating a personal Astral Energy generator. With this, they can draw from replenishing energies to fuel their psychic power. After a while, they have to be dropped, due to the threat of prolonged radiation exposure. (The Psionic Belt takes the form of a glowing ring of energy, whether it's around the waist, around or above the head like a halo. around a wrist or a finger, or around a weapon such as a staff.) Psions still cast their spells with their minds and under their own skill and abilities, all that has to be done to create a font of replenishing magical energy is to spend a minor action to summon your psionic belt for the combat.

This seems more like fluff, and good fluff, than something that really needs a new mechanic. It may simply not be worth the house-rule. It also screws psionicists in surprise rounds, and sometimes in the first round of a normal combat. Consider a Battlemind who wants to move toward the enemy, mark one of them, then charge, a fairly common opening round for a defender. With your house-rule he no longer has the actions to do this. If there's no downside, adventuring psionicists are going to be walking around with this belt active at all times.

The Shardmind thing is more than just Monks too, they were just the most obvious one. A Brawler Fighter (MP2) would also be buffed by getting bonus damage from touching someone. A Belt of the Brawler on a Ruthless Rufian rogue would work too, making that rogue build worth using for once. You might consider adding a feat to let the Shardmind deal extra damage once an encounter when grabbed or making an unarmed attack (including grab) instead.

Make the explosion an epic destiny. No immortality, just a really big boom. :smallbiggrin:

Cealocanth
2011-01-14, 07:42 PM
This seems more like fluff, and good fluff, than something that really needs a new mechanic. It may simply not be worth the house-rule. It also screws psionicists in surprise rounds, and sometimes in the first round of a normal combat. Consider a Battlemind who wants to move toward the enemy, mark one of them, then charge, a fairly common opening round for a defender. With your house-rule he no longer has the actions to do this. If there's no downside, adventuring psionicists are going to be walking around with this belt active at all times.

The Shardmind thing is more than just Monks too, they were just the most obvious one. A Brawler Fighter (MP2) would also be buffed by getting bonus damage from touching someone. A Belt of the Brawler on a Ruthless Rufian rogue would work too, making that rogue build worth using for once. You might consider adding a feat to let the Shardmind deal extra damage once an encounter when grabbed or making an unarmed attack (including grab) instead.

Make the explosion an epic destiny. No immortality, just a really big boom. :smallbiggrin:

It can't be on at all times. The belt itself, once created, consumes Astral energy like a black hole. It will just continue to absorb the energy around it until it can't sustain it any longer, then it will begin to radiate it to the environment around it. After too long, it will begin to cause rads on the party, after much too long, the energy levels may begin forming ley lines of it's own and begin to dangerously electrocute things in it's presence.
And you know, the summoning of the belt only really requires thought, so why not make it a free action. Players will have to mention the summoning of the belt, but it won't cost anything.

I've decided that the fact that a shardmind "can't be touched" is more like "you wouldn't want to touch it". Touching a shardmind will only transfer a teensy amount of radiation, like 1 rad. (just for perspective, a 2nd degree sunburn is 2 rads.) If you spend hours and hours poking them repeatedly, you may go up a mutation category or 2, but it's not vaporizing by any means. Also, the explosion destroys the shardmind's body and Spirit, as well as vaporizing creatures in it's presence. I only expect players to use it at a very last resort, because it's basically an instant TPK.

How about this, by the time a Shardmind has accumulated enough energy from the creatures around it to replenish itself when it suppresed it's radiation, it's bound to be epic level. Once a Shardmind is good enough to get an Epic Destiny, they get the ability to detonate themselves as an added bonus. I know it will mean that great creatures may be killed, but hey, the noble shardmind made the epic sacrifice to kill it.

Shatteredtower
2011-01-14, 10:24 PM
Note that unlike pushing off cliffs, pushing into zones or walls does not grant a saving throw.

Yes, it does. Hindering terrain is hindering terrain, regardless of cause. If a zone can produce difficult terrain, one can produce hindering terrain.

Cealocanth
2011-01-14, 10:46 PM
I just reviewed and found some more minor changes that have been in place, but may be too damaging.

Psions, before level 1, will gain 1d6 mutation points before level 1 as a result of the amplification process. At least 12 (points, not die rolls) are required if it is a Raider amplification process.

Invokers aren't actually divine casters. Their powers are older than even Astralite itself. Invokers are trained in a special form of Ancient (old race that existed before magic that used technology to re-shape the planet. They're virtually extinct) technology with Astralite as a power source. Invokers must carry a "battery" with them to use their power. Any other specimen of Astralite may suffice as a power source.

Primal Magic is only capable of preforming if the correct Spirit can be called upon. Since Spirits are widespread and very randomly powered, the damage type of attacks may change based on the Spirit present. In a similar way of determining random encounters, a one on a six sider causes the spell to come up as an unexpected damage type.

Edit: Oh, and i recall someone asking why? Because Azura's history as a planet, the source of magic, and the origin of the races requires these effects for them to make sense.

Urpriest
2011-01-14, 11:45 PM
Invokers aren't actually divine casters. Their powers are older than even Astralite itself. Invokers are trained in a special form of Ancient (old race that existed before magic that used technology to re-shape the planet. They're virtually extinct) technology with Astralite as a power source. Invokers must carry a "battery" with them to use their power. Any other specimen of Astralite may suffice as a power source.


Every power source has a bunch of associated feats, paragon paths, etc. If you remove Invokers from their normal power source you need to add them to another one.

On the other hand, how does divine magic work in your world exactly? The default fluff for Invokers is that the tap into the magic the gods themselves used to shape the world...so if the gods are really ascended Ancients, which seems like the kind of style you're going for, then it would make sense for Invokers to have access to the divine power source. Also, what about Runepriests, who have similar fluff, if more...umm..runic.

Cealocanth
2011-01-14, 11:53 PM
Every power source has a bunch of associated feats, paragon paths, etc. If you remove Invokers from their normal power source you need to add them to another one.

On the other hand, how does divine magic work in your world exactly? The default fluff for Invokers is that the tap into the magic the gods themselves used to shape the world...so if the gods are really ascended Ancients, which seems like the kind of style you're going for, then it would make sense for Invokers to have access to the divine power source. Also, what about Runepriests, who have similar fluff, if more...umm..runic.

Because the deities of the world are the 4 aspects of nature (Earth, Sky, Ocean, and Desert) divine magic works by drawing astral energy right out of the environment itself. This is a much weaker and safer method of creating magical effects, which is why it is both the most common and why divine classes tend to have less damage inflicting powers on average. Divine magic requires connection to the deity of choice, but it also has nearly no side effects.

...which is why Invokers aren't divine casters. They're really belong to those that use Ancient technology, but for all intentions and purposes, they're right in there with Divine casters.

Runepriests are divine casters because their runes are special mediums used to draw Astral Energy out of the surrounding environment and to be used as spells.

Urpriest
2011-01-15, 12:00 AM
...which is why Invokers aren't divine casters. They're really belong to those that use Ancient technology, but for all intentions and purposes, they're right in there with Divine casters.


Okay, so which other classes use Ancient technology? Artificers?

Invokers need a power source, or they need their own selection of feats/paragon paths/epic destinies to replace the ones they get from their power source. Also, what are you doing about Channel Divinity powers?

MeeposFire
2011-01-15, 12:09 AM
I really think screwing over the psionic classes like that is a bad idea. Is there any way you could be happy making a not so mechanical and more fluffy change? Removing a minor action from a class is very painful. Think that at higher levels the first turn of a psionic character will be hampered while every other class will have freedom to use utilities and such.

Cealocanth
2011-01-15, 12:28 PM
Okay, so which other classes use Ancient technology? Artificers?

Invokers need a power source, or they need their own selection of feats/paragon paths/epic destinies to replace the ones they get from their power source. Also, what are you doing about Channel Divinity powers?

Channel Divinity Works by working the Channel power of the diety that's closer to yours. If you want to channel Armor of Bahamut, for example, you will have to be an Earth worshipper and I'll just change the name of the power in the Character Builder to Armor of the Earth. The Raven queen's Shroud works with those that worship the Moon, etc.


I really think screwing over the psionic classes like that is a bad idea. Is there any way you could be happy making a not so mechanical and more fluffy change? Removing a minor action from a class is very painful. Think that at higher levels the first turn of a psionic character will be hampered while every other class will have freedom to use utilities and such.

Re-read the thread. Because the Belt only requires thinking to work, it's really a free action. The PCs should just mention the fact that they're using it for fluff reasons.

Urpriest
2011-01-15, 01:03 PM
Channel Divinity Works by working the Channel power of the diety that's closer to yours. If you want to channel Armor of Bahamut, for example, you will have to be an Earth worshipper and I'll just change the name of the power in the Character Builder to Armor of the Earth. The Raven queen's Shroud works with those that worship the Moon, etc.


Ok, so why can Invokers use Channel Divinity then? And if they can't, what are you giving them in return?

tcrudisi
2011-01-15, 01:39 PM
Note that unlike pushing off cliffs, pushing into zones or walls does not grant a saving throw.


Yes, it does. Hindering terrain is hindering terrain, regardless of cause. If a zone can produce difficult terrain, one can produce hindering terrain.

You are incorrect, Shatteredtower. Hindering terrain is specifically defined in the Rules Compendium: "Pits, electrifying runes, lava, extremely deep water, and other harmful environmental phenomena are hindering terrain, which punishes creatures that are in it or try to enter it.
... Hindering terrain almost always has the potential to harm creatures that enter it, either by causing them to fall or by dealing damage to them directly. (Some hindering terrain might impose a penalty or a harmful condition without dealing damage.)"

What does this tell us? It has to be either a pit, electrifying rune, lava, extremely deep water, or some other harmful environmental phenomena. Player-character powers do not fit under any of those criteria. Since most abuses of forced movement come from zones (and that's what was being discussed above), I'll focus on them:

"Powers that have the zone keyword create zones, which are magical areas that last for a round or more.
... Unaffected by Attacks and the Environment: The zone cannot be attacked or physically affected, and terrain and environmental phenomena have no effect on it. For instance, a zone that deals fire damage is unaffected by a freezing environment."

That further implies that zones are not environmental phenomena, and thus are not hindering terrain.

Kurald Galain
2011-01-15, 01:47 PM
That further implies that zones are not environmental phenomena, and thus are not hindering terrain.

Indeed.

The rules are very clear. A spell does not deal necrotic damage unless it explicitly says it does. A spell does not push enemies unless it explicitly says it does. And a spell does not create terrain unless it explicitly says it does, either.

For example, the spell "Icy Terrain" states that it creates terrain, and the spell "Grasping Shadows" does not.

Shatteredtower
2011-01-15, 07:21 PM
Nonsense. Examples are not all inclusive. You cannot provide any plausible reason to explain why a person could avoid electric runes by falling down, but couldn't do the same to avoid a zone.

"The rules don't specifically say that," is no reason at all. All that matters is the threat.

Cealocanth
2011-01-15, 10:28 PM
Ok, so why can Invokers use Channel Divinity then? And if they can't, what are you giving them in return?

To tell you the truth, you've got me stumped. I'll have to think about it.

[Edit: Ancient technology was once used to re-shape the planet and enact miracles. The technology is used by Invokers to create their spells, which barely mimic the technology the Ancients used. So, in a way, Ancient technology is superior over the forces of nature i.e. the major deities. It would make sense that when an Invoker is trained, they are taught how to control and dominate a force of nature in a similar way a cleric does, thus allowing them to tap into that power source and channel it's raw power if the invoker sees fit.]

Urpriest
2011-01-15, 10:48 PM
To tell you the truth, you've got me stumped. I'll have to think about it.

One avenue of thought:

In my view, fluff-ish things like power sources or different styles of weapon are defined in 4e by their attached feats. So the divine power source has the channel divinity powers and a focus on radiant effects, while primal likes hide armor, Con score, and general toughness. Arcane deals with tricks and studies (Archmage epic destiny, White Lotus School). Psionics last I checked didn't have all that much in terms of cross-class feats, but there probably has been a theme established with Psionic Power. If you change the fluff of the power sources, be aware that their feats will still bring them back to certain thematic groups, in much the same way that a Mordenkrad refluffed as a finesse weapon will still principally be used by Con-heavy classes. So I'd try to think about what kinds of things you want Invokers to do by virtue of their power source, and then look for the power source with feats that enable that feel. I know this is vague, but it's a big undertaking, and one of the reasons why making mechanics fit a refluffed 4e is harder than it seems at first.

Edit: The kind of thing you're proposing works too. It definitely feels like more of a retroactive justification, but if you're ok with doing that occasionally it will really simplify your job.

Cealocanth
2011-01-15, 10:54 PM
One avenue of thought:

In my view, fluff-ish things like power sources or different styles of weapon are defined in 4e by their attached feats. So the divine power source has the channel divinity powers and a focus on radiant effects, while primal likes hide armor, Con score, and general toughness. Arcane deals with tricks and studies (Archmage epic destiny, White Lotus School). Psionics last I checked didn't have all that much in terms of cross-class feats, but there probably has been a theme established with Psionic Power. If you change the fluff of the power sources, be aware that their feats will still bring them back to certain thematic groups, in much the same way that a Mordenkrad refluffed as a finesse weapon will still principally be used by Con-heavy classes. So I'd try to think about what kinds of things you want Invokers to do by virtue of their power source, and then look for the power source with feats that enable that feel. I know this is vague, but it's a big undertaking, and one of the reasons why making mechanics fit a refluffed 4e is harder than it seems at first.

Edit: The kind of thing you're proposing works too. It definitely feels like more of a retroactive justification, but if you're ok with doing that occasionally it will really simplify your job.

I'm not really trying to re-work the feel of the things. I'm more trying to explain how they work in Azura. The mechanical changes are only a side effect of this. I try to go for "why".

In my campaign, Wizards are still spell singers, Fighters are still tanks, Sorcerers are still wild magic wielding lunatics, Psions are still...psions, Clerics are still religious devotees, and Invokers are still wrath inducing god-magic controlling casters.