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TomBaker
2011-01-14, 08:28 AM
Well, my first post, and yet I am filled with trepidation. I wish to seek the playground for advice with a tricky situation I find myself in.

Firstly I haven't GM'd for the last year, save Dark Heresy, and am having a few problems with certain aspects of adjusting back to pathfinder, as well as some character troubles.

1. Firstly we have only just played 2 sessions, in the space of 2 days. However there are already 3 dead characters, with a 4th being believed dead by the party, but that is a whole other confusing issue of hilarity.

Granted 1 death was a critical on a caster with a great sword, but the other 2 were a CR 3 trap and a assassin vine. I know the CR isn't to high because it is a 7 man party, now at level 2.

2. Second part is party cohesion, or seeming inability to build it. Everyone get's along really well OOC, but in game hey cannot for the life of them build a relationship with each other, save 2-3 characters, surprisingly one of who has never played before an is the biggest troll I know :smalltongue:

But anyway what I beg is advice on how to build party cohesion and roleplaying, and how to keep a party alive, without being a pushover campaign.

WitchSlayer
2011-01-14, 08:33 AM
That's Dark Heresy for you. In the Dark Heresy game I'm in, no one has died yet. I have no idea how this has happened, I feel either people are cheating on their roles or the DM is going easy on us.

Chilingsworth
2011-01-14, 12:33 PM
Does the party have a competent rogue? If not, there's your trap problem right there. Actually, what classes Do your players have? Also note which are actually building relationships and which are dead?

true_shinken
2011-01-14, 12:35 PM
Party composition, please?

Sillycomic
2011-01-14, 12:52 PM
Greatswords aren't very friendly towards low level characters.

Anyone who wields them usually has a strength of at least 14. Which means they're doing on average 9 points of damage on a succesful hit.

Pathfinder beefed up characters, but even a decent fighter who rolled well on second level should only have 25 hit points. Barbarians a little more, and most everyone else a lot less.

And assasin vine has some pretty gnarly special abilities that all work very well together. It has entangle which hurts all of the burly bulky fighter types to prevent them from killing it. It also has constrict which hurts the weaker magical types who don't have an amazing CMB/D to get out of it. And it has an amazing camouflage which means it's nearly impossible to spot unless you get right up on it.

How to keep the party alive?

All bad guys who have greatswords, let them have longswords instead. Not as deadly, but far from pushovers.


I would say forgo the assasin vine until perhaps level 3 or so. And be nice when you ask for perception checks. Plus give the ranger or druid a bonus because... well they need it.

As far as party cohesion?

You could always tell them their characters need to be able to get along together. That's usually given in a campaign.

You could also mention to them that whatever quest they are on, they'll probably die if they don't stick together (like... you know, what's been happening)

You could have a couple hours of role playing that doesn't involve killing things. Playing cards as their characters. Meeting in a bar (if you're old enough, actually play the bar tender by handing people beers and such) and letting them have conversations as their characters.

You could have them build each other into their backgrounds. Long time friends, rivals, people they knew as kids, they were all born on the same day, went to the same school, were kidnapped by the same mean half orc before they were rescued by local lumberjacks... something that puts them all together so they can trust each other.

Warlawk
2011-01-14, 01:32 PM
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s212/Warlawk/Motivators%20and%20Funnies/Level1.jpg

The 3.5 model is EXTREMELY harsh on low level characters unless the DM specifically builds for it. I'm working on putting together a formal list of houserules for our group and really pushing to get +10 HP for everyone at first level for exactly this reason.

With a greatsword, or really any 2 handed weapon, hitting any d4/d6 class at first level if you crit it has a very realistic chance of shooting them right past the -10 HP to instant death. That's just not interesting gameplay. For that matter, a well rolled crit on a first level fighter could do the same.

At low levels traps that disable or debuff instead of kill are usually a good idea. Since skill bonuses are low it is exceedingly easy for someone to blow a roll and end up dead. At higher levels the skill bonuses are commonly greater than you can roll on d20, so the variable becomes less of a deciding factor.

Delwugor
2011-01-14, 05:30 PM
I'm in an M&M campaign and at the end of the 4th session this week the characters started learning enough about each other to start the in character fighting. :smallbiggrin: Give your players time to figure out how to work together as characters in a group, it should happen on its own if they try.

That is if they survive long enough. :smalltongue:

First only use the CRs as a guide, CR and ELs make assumptions on the characters/classes and players. You need to have a feel for the characters, their abilities and how tough they are in a fight. That feel is hard to get for new characters so let them live long enough for you to get it down for the group.

Use traps that wear away at abilities and points instead of lethal ones.

Finally you are the GM if you don't want the characters to die then don't kill them. You can fudge the dice for killing blows or just keep an unspoken no crits by monster rule. Or what I do at times is have the bad guys use bad tactics or do something stupid to loose the fight.
There are many GMs who hate fudging or "GM cheating" with some justification. But the real question for you to ask is what more important - keeping the group alive and the campaign running smoothly or sticking true to rules and monsters. It's a judgement call and there is no correct answer.

jebob
2011-01-14, 05:45 PM
One thing I've noticed is that because you have a large group (7 I believe), you should take more care to distribute damage evenly. A party of four level threes can take a 3d6 damage hit to a character, and could probably heal him up. On the other hand, for a party of seven level twos a 3d6 damage hit is potentially fatal, despite the two groups being roughly the same effective total level.

TomBaker
2011-01-14, 07:09 PM
For those asking the party composition is as follows:
A Level 2 Half-Orc Wizard, Teleportation school, formerly the dead rogue.
A Level 2 Human Paladin.
A Level 2 Halfling Summoner, specializing in riding his eidolon.
A Level 2 Halfling Sorceror, formerly the dead halfling summoner.
A Level 2 Dwarf Cleric of Cayden.
A Level 2 Human Monk, formerly the dead bard.
And finally the Level 2 Human Inquisitor of Groteus, recently thought dead by the party as he has been played, well chaotic evil by the player, who has managed to make the most insane disguise and fake his death to rejoin the party.


@Chillingsworth: The Paladin, Summoner and dwarf are all steadily building a good relationship and character. However the monk's player is more interested in loot, the sorceror gave me these words for backstory: Halfling with boobs, and hasn't tried to give a reason for much of his actions, and finally the former rogue, well he had backstory, but tried to loot everything he could. Even a CN character does not try to grab a gold dagger at the bottom of a fast flowing river, when half the party is being dragged down the river already.
And the inquisitor almost deserves his own thread.


@Delwugor: The ability damage traps sound like a nice plan, as it'll give them something to worry about without overt damage.
Thing is, I've used 6 traps over 2 sessions, yet the party have said they can't stand them. Also in terms of fudging, I really like to accept the dice roll where it is, as in the same first fight I rolled four NPC critical fumbles. I just like accepting the dice gods answer.
:smallsmile:

woodenbandman
2011-01-14, 07:15 PM
Just because you have a seven man party doesn't mean that you should use CR3 traps.

CR3 traps = 1 person is dead if it hits them. Assassin vine = 1 person is dead.

Using higher CR to balance this party is not the appropriate way to do it, as anything CR3 will 1-shot a level 1 character.

Try using multple CR 1/3 or lower creatures.

TomBaker
2011-01-14, 07:30 PM
I already am using lots of low CRs, and it's starting to wear on the party as well, as they've said they're a bit sick of pasting low level mooks.

Also in terms of the assassin vine, they were level 2 at that point. So, if party cohesion was good, they would've ganked it in about 2 rounds. The rogue just blindly ran after a shiny and was torn apart.

Sillycomic
2011-01-14, 07:56 PM
Yes, them being a cohesive unit and using good tactics can understandably change a challenging fight (which is what you want to give them) into a deadly one (which is what they got)

I'm not sure why they really want tougher encounters if they've lost 3 players in the last 2 sessions. To me, that seems like the encounters are deadly enough.

Do they just want more lewts? Or to get more XP so they can level?

I would say if the group as a whole wants higher level bad guys... then let them level up. A party of 7 level 3 characters can be deadly, and you can throw these tougher things at them and not feel that bad when the greatsword crits.

I wanna know more about this inquisitor personally. I had a similar idea of dying and disguising my way back into the party one time... I hope it's working.

Jornophelanthas
2011-01-14, 08:06 PM
I already am using lots of low CRs, and it's starting to wear on the party as well, as they've said they're a bit sick of pasting low level mooks.
A few tips here:
- Nobody said that low-level enemies are not intimidating. Do not call them "mooks" or "low-level" in front of your players, and don't describe them to the players as "just a wolf" or "just a fighter-rogue", but rather "the hungry wolf with the razor-sharp teeth" or "the bandit with the ugly scar". Give them personality, so beating them actually means something to the players.
- Your players are thrill-seekers and too full of themselves if they think they can handle more than what you're throwing against them at this level. Perhaps the best way is to give them enough XP to raise them all to level 3, so that they're a little hardier and can handle a greater variety of enemies.
- They need to learn how to work together. The larger the group, the harder it is to get all of them on the same page. The best way to teach players some combat tactics is to give them a few straight-up combats, with no traps or attacks that take characters out of the fight immediately. This will teach them some tactics. Next, have them fight against opponents that use the same tactics (or - riskier - opponents against whom their tactics won't work). This will teach them to adapt their tactics if necessary.
- Do not use traps every single time. It gets boring, because a standard trap usually involves only two players for a significant amount of time (i.e. the one who springs it, and the one who disarms it), while the other five have to sit by and wait. Traps are good to keep players on their toes, and to punish them if they get careless, but they should be used sparingly, or they'll lose their impact.
Or you could look up or design elaborate traps that have to be solved by the entire party working together.

Warlawk
2011-01-14, 09:07 PM
Traps can really be a sticking point for some groups. Personally, I despise them in 99% of the situations you encounter them. Modules and many stories have traps in the most random inane places that make absolutely no sense.

Traps in the kitchen of a rich mans manor? Because everyone wants to disarm a trap just to get a midnight sandwich, and losing servants to it every couple weeks isn't a big deal right?

And as mentioned, traps tend to focus very heavily on one person. I don't like them for almost everything they are usually used for. I really think it is written that way 1) for sake of tradition 2) to keep the trapmokey skills relevant.

Ragitsu
2011-01-14, 09:08 PM
2 Rogues, 1 Ten Foot Pole.

TomBaker
2011-01-14, 10:55 PM
In terms of traps they were only placed at an ambush by a pack of mercs after the party, as in pit traps set to take a level 2 out and as a defensive line, so it wasn't on the sheriff's door or anything :smalltongue:

And the part about the tactics is true, they do have a few seasoned roleplayers, both of whom are the back bone of the party in combat (the paladin and summoner) yet seem to be sitting back and letting the younger players run rampant ( by younger players I mean the group of 19 year old friends playing the other classes), but they derided the earlier straight fights, hence the tactical use of traps in a forest.

@Sillycomic: The inquistor took a p.o.w. from raiding bandits attacking the town, branded him, then proceeded to mutilate his face in front of an 11 year old girl near town hall.....suffice to say he was locked up by HIS OWN PARTY once back in town after clearing the forest out. So he with the help of another inmate in the lockup overpowered a guard, got out of the cell, raided different clothes and weapons, dressed the guard in his robes an cowl, killed the inmate, doused the cell and burnt half the building down.

The disguise came in the fact he decided to burn his own face to assume a new identity. He looks like Two Face from Batman....just everywhere on his head. So far this CE character is masquerading as LG to get close to the paladin and take revenge.

Clepto
2011-01-14, 11:49 PM
Heh. By the thread title, I thought you were referring to a single player who had died three times in two session. I thought, "That sounds like me."

In our group of 4 or 5 players, myself, one other guy, and the DM are experienced players. The rest are fairly new(ish) to roleplaying. It's actually a conscious decision on my part to play thrill-seeking, devil-may-care, shoot-first typed characters so that I do FAR more often than the inexperienced players.

Don't get me wrong, they have their fair share, but I tend to die way more than anyone else. In our last D&D campaign before we started our current Cthulhu game, I got in the habit of rolling up two or three characters, just to have spares. I think I averaged about 1.3 deaths per session.

On the plus side, playing throwaway characters was fun, and it gave me opportunities to both test out new character builds, and annoy my GM with said character builds.

Sillycomic
2011-01-15, 12:10 AM
That's actually quite genius and a well thought out on the Inquisitor's part. Were I a character in that game I would enjoy those kinds of antics.

Although, some people really don't. I would check with the paladin before you just tell him one day, "oh, yeah... you wake up dead."

Unless you all decided beforehand that PVP was ok in the game. Seems like you haven't really decided anything since players are just running around doing whatever they want. Is this a sandbox game by chance?

TomBaker
2011-01-15, 12:50 AM
Not really, it's more of a non linear progression where I have scripted fights and events for the party, how they get to those is up to them. And the inquisitor's player could best be described as violence with humor. Sneaking isn't his strong point.