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Skjaldbakka
2011-01-14, 09:41 AM
Every manuevarbility for flying lists downward movement as doubled. Does that mean you can effectively take a 10' step down as a free action (assuming you don't have a minimum forward movement to remain flying)?

Kuma Kode
2011-01-14, 09:53 AM
I would say no.

The 5 foot movement that is free to everyone is technically referred to as a shift, and is different from normal movement. No increase to speed affects these rules, so I can only move 5' in a shift regardless of whether my base speed was 5' or 180'.

Since it's not a function of your speed, your speed doesn't matter.

Note: I'm sure you can fall that far as a free action, but that movement would provoke attacks of opportunity.

Skjaldbakka
2011-01-14, 09:55 AM
I should probably have specified 3.5. Given your use of the word 'shift', I'm guessing you were thinking 4E.

Kuma Kode
2011-01-14, 09:56 AM
I should probably have specified 3.5. Given your use of the word 'shift', I'm guessing you were thinking 4E. They referred to it as a shift in 3.5 in different places, too, but yeah, I knew it was 3.5. It follows different rules than a normal move action, however, and is not dependent in any way on your speed, so no, I don't think you can do that.

2xMachina
2011-01-14, 09:58 AM
I'm pretty sure falling down is a free action. IIRC, a stall (caused by lack of forward movement) would drop you down for free. You just need to make sure you get your flying back on, before you fall too far (ie, splat)

FelixG
2011-01-14, 10:01 AM
also question: How far do you drop in a turn?

say you are 400 feet up and fall, you you travel all 400 feet at once or does it take several turns?

Kuma Kode
2011-01-14, 10:02 AM
If it is too high above the ground to land, it falls straight down, descending 150 feet in the first round of falling. If this distance brings it to the ground, it takes falling damage. If the fall doesn’t bring the creature to the ground, it must spend its next turn recovering from the stall. It must succeed on a DC 20 Reflex save to recover. Otherwise it falls another 300 feet. If it hits the ground, it takes falling damage. Otherwise, it has another chance to recover on its next turn. I would just use the rules for stalling.

2xMachina
2011-01-14, 10:07 AM
However, if you did not actually stall (because no min. forward speed), maybe you could stop your wings for a second to drop down a little, before catching yourself from a short drop?

Kuma Kode
2011-01-14, 10:09 AM
That's what I meant earlier. Depending on your maneuverability, you could drop that far as a free action, but such movement would NOT be considered that 5' shift and would provoke an attack of opportunity.

Curmudgeon
2011-01-14, 10:10 AM
It's not a free action, but yes, you could drop 10' in place of your standard allowed 5' adjustment. By the same token you're prohibited by the rules from a 5' adjustment upward when that would cost double movement; you could only gain 2.5', which rounds down (as always) to prevent you from rising out of your square (cube). With good maneuverability you could hover and make a full ranged attack, then (instead of 5' up or down) you've got 5' or 10' down and no up adjustment.

Kuma Kode
2011-01-14, 10:26 AM
Eh, I still don't say a 10' down adjustment is allowed. It is not affected by improvements to speed in any other way. Not even Colossal creatures can move farther than 5' with a 5-foot step. A dwarf with heavy armor and the Slow flaw with a base speed of 10' can take a 5' step, and the monk with a 180' base speed takes a 5' step max. Give either one haste, and the rules don't change. Expeditious retreat? Still limited to 5' without provoking AoOs. It is a special action that is not a function of your speed, and so your speed doesn't affect it; it follows its own rules.

Curmudgeon is correct in that regardless, you won't be able to take a 5 foot step UP since that is similar to the rules of difficult terrain and the 5 foot step's rules about being unable to take it if your speed is hampered in any way.

Curmudgeon
2011-01-14, 12:52 PM
Eh, I still don't say a 10' down adjustment is allowed. It is not affected by improvements to speed in any other way. ...

Curmudgeon is correct in that regardless, you won't be able to take a 5 foot step UP since that is similar to the rules of difficult terrain and the 5 foot step's rules about being unable to take it if your speed is hampered in any way.
This position is inconsistent. It's not the character that is flying downward faster, but the environment that's causing the speedup ─ exactly as gravity (like difficult terrain) is causing the slowdown when flying upward. And just as it doesn't matter how fast you fly when you're unable to go upward 5' with half movement, it doesn't matter how fast you fly when you go downward twice as far (10') with double movement.

true_shinken
2011-01-14, 12:54 PM
I'm with Curmudgeon on this one.
This gets into tricky places when you consider a Raptoran's glide, though.

Kuma Kode
2011-01-14, 01:43 PM
Down Speed

A flying creature can fly down at twice its normal flying speed.
The wording of the downward movement section sounds like it doubles your flying speed. 5-foot step is not a function of speed. If a 5-foot step was a 10-foot step, it would be, by definition, not a 5-foot step.

EDIT (Clarification): It does not say "all movement down is doubled," which would also include the 5-foot step. It specifically mentions a creature's flying speed, which is a mechanical term.

Rules of the Game (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040706a) mentions that a creature with Perfect or Good Maneuverability (no minimum forward speed) can take a 5-foot step. It does not state this is doubled in any case.


This gets into tricky places when you consider a Raptoran's glide, though. If I remember correctly, the Raptorian's glide is not actually a fly speed but instead functions like one. They cannot take the 5-foot step because they do not possess that speed, just like a human swimming cannot take a 5-foot step while underwater.

icefractal
2011-01-14, 01:44 PM
I think you could do it. Since you can't 5' step in areas that halve your speed (difficult terrain), then it makes sense that double speed would have an effect.

true_shinken
2011-01-14, 01:58 PM
If a 5-foot step was a 10-foot step, it would be, by definition, not a 5-foot step.

That's hardly an argument. There are at least three other ways to move 10 foot with a 5 foot step.
Sparring Dummy of the Master, from Arms & Equipment Guide.
A DC 40 Tumble check, from Oriental Adventures.
Cyran Gliding Boots, from Clockwork Wonders (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cw/20061120a).

Kuma Kode
2011-01-14, 02:30 PM
That's hardly an argument. There are at least three other ways to move 10 foot with a 5 foot step.
Sparring Dummy of the Master, from Arms & Equipment Guide.
A DC 40 Tumble check, from Oriental Adventures.
Cyran Gliding Boots, from Clockwork Wonders (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cw/20061120a). And do these things specifically state they increase a 5-foot step, or do they all just increase movement speed?

I'm not saying that allowing a 10' step down is unrealistic, I'm saying the rules don't technically support it. If you want to, go for it. It's a corner case where the rules aren't terribly explicit.

true_shinken
2011-01-14, 02:35 PM
And do these things specifically state they increase a 5-foot step, or do they all just increase movement speed?
Like I said, all three options specifically increase a 5-foot step. I'll even quote Cyran Gliding Boots relevant text here:

As a result, gliding boots allow the wearer to make a 10 ft. adjustment in combat as a free action rather than a 5 ft. adjustment; this adjustment follows all the rules for the normal 5 ft. adjustment, and can be used 3 times/day

Kuma Kode
2011-01-14, 02:37 PM
Like I said, all three options specifically increase a 5-foot step. I'll even quote Cyran Gliding Boots relevant text here: This is exactly my point. Unless specifically stated otherwise, a 5-foot step is five feet. It is its own special action with particular rules. It's the specific vs. generic thing. General adjustments to movement do not modify the specifics of that particular action unless they specifically state otherwise. Downward speed is "doubled", but it does not specifically state that is also doubles 5' steps. Ergo, your 5' step is limited to five feet, even when moving down.

Curmudgeon
2011-01-14, 02:52 PM
This is exactly my point. Unless specifically stated otherwise, a 5-foot step is five feet. It is its own special action with particular rules.
As I said earlier, your position is inconsistent.
You can only take a 5-foot step if your movement isn’t hampered by difficult terrain or darkness. Half movement rate for something other than difficult terrain or darkness then should have no more impact on upward adjustment than double movement rate for downward adjustment. Either there's no impact and you can move up 5' and down 5' regardless, or you cannot move up 5' if that's at half speed but you can move down 10' because that's at double speed.

Kuma Kode
2011-01-14, 03:00 PM
As I said earlier, your position is inconsistent. Half movement rate for something other than difficult terrain or darkness then should have no more impact on upward adjustment than double movement rate for downward adjustment. You are incorrect. The exact wording is...
You can’t take a 5-foot step if your movement is hampered, such as into a square of difficult terrain, in darkness, or when blinded. It's the SUCH AS that's important. What it lists is not an exhaustive list of instances in which you cannot take a 5-foot step, it is a list of common examples of hampered movement.

EDIT: If you happen to be away from your books, the D&D Glossary is available online (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/glossary&term=Glossary_dnd_5footstep&alpha=).

drakir_nosslin
2011-01-14, 03:07 PM
You are incorrect. The exact wording is... It's the SUCH AS that's important. What it lists is not an exhaustive list of instances in which you cannot take a 5-foot step, it is a list of common examples of hampered movement.

EDIT: If you happen to be away from your books, the D&D Glossary is available online (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/glossary&term=Glossary_dnd_5footstep&alpha=).

Does rising the count as hampered movement? I don't think so, only that it costs 10 ft. to move 5. There's nothing in the way, just that you're not able to rise high enough. You can, however, fly downwards very fast, so to me it sounds reasonable to move 10' as a 5' step-move.

Kuma Kode
2011-01-14, 03:13 PM
Does rising the count as hampered movement? I don't think so, only that it costs 10 ft. to move 5. There's nothing in the way, just that you're not able to rise high enough. You can, however, fly downwards very fast, so to me it sounds reasonable to move 10' as a 5' step-move. I would say anything that says "moves at half speed" counts as hampered, since that's what blinded and difficult terrain both do. There's nothing "in the way" when you can't see, but it still counts.

I'm not saying allowing a 10' step down is unreasonable, I'm saying it would be Rule 0. The rules indicate otherwise. Since I figured Skjaldbakka was asking a rules question, I answered with the mechanics. If Skjaldbakka was asking for help with DM adjucation, that was unclear.

Mechanically speaking, the rules don't allow for a 10' step down, no.

true_shinken
2011-01-14, 03:24 PM
This is exactly my point. Unless specifically stated otherwise, a 5-foot step is five feet. It is its own special action with particular rules. It's the specific vs. generic thing. General adjustments to movement do not modify the specifics of that particular action unless they specifically state otherwise. Downward speed is "doubled", but it does not specifically state that is also doubles 5' steps. Ergo, your 5' step is limited to five feet, even when moving down.
Your force me to quote Oriental Adventures, that says the same thing with a different wording, but a very explicit wording that says it's a 5-foot step.

Move 10 feet as a “5-foot step,” while also performing a full-round action during the round (such as a full attack). In melee, you might do a back flip over your opponent’s head to get on his other side. This move never provokes an attack of opportunity—it is exactly equivalent to a 5-foot step, except for the distance covered.
Emphasis mine.

Kuma Kode
2011-01-14, 03:29 PM
Your force me to quote Oriental Adventures, that says the same thing with a different wording, but a very explicit wording that says it's a 5-foot step. Emphasis mine. You misunderstood. I wasn't saying that those options do not allow a 10' 5-foot step. My point was that they had to specifically state they do so, indicating that other effects that do not specifically state so do not increase the distance of a 5' step. It's the specific vs. generic rule. A generic increase to speed does not increase the very specific 5' step. Abilities or items, like you mentioned, have to specifically state they override the 5' step's normal rules. Since flying down does not have that specificity, the specific rules regarding 5' steps apply.

I apologize that I had not made my original intent clear.

true_shinken
2011-01-14, 03:47 PM
You misunderstood. I wasn't saying that those options do not allow a 10' 5-foot step. My point was that they had to specifically state they do so, indicating that other effects that do not specifically state so do not increase the distance of a 5' step. It's the specific vs. generic rule. A generic increase to speed does not increase the very specific 5' step. Abilities or items, like you mentioned, have to specifically state they override the 5' step's normal rules. Since flying down does not have that specificity, the specific rules regarding 5' steps apply.

I apologize that I had not made my original intent clear.

An increase in speed is something like a Barbarian's Fast Movement.

...but now I found your edit, and "It does not say "all movement down is doubled," which would also include the 5-foot step." really makes sense.