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Barbarian MD
2011-01-14, 11:28 AM
Pondering a homebrew, and wanted to gauge thoughts before writing it.

What if you could cast a spell of any type equal in level to one that you could cast, so long as you were reading it from a spell book as a ritual.

Let me give an example: a wizard capable of casting 7th-level spells has a book that contains a 7th-level spell he doesn't have memorized. As an action that lasts, I don't know, 3 rounds, he can read the spell out loud and cast it.

Next question I have, what about a cleric, capable of casting 7th-level spells, could read from the same book and cast that 7th-level wizard spell.

I'm liking this idea, thematically, in the sense that it captures the essence of a spell-book in fantasy literature. Would it be best done as a feat, or as independent magic items, or both?

Follow-up question, what would be the implications if the spell-level restriction was removed, and you instead based it off a spellcraft check or UMD? Then your fighter could cast spells, too.

(Note: I know that this is sort of like the way scrolls work, but I'm thinking in terms on not single-use, and something that you could collect a number of throughout a campaign.)

Thomar_of_Uointer
2011-01-14, 12:09 PM
Pondering a homebrew, and wanted to gauge thoughts before writing it.

What if you could cast a spell of any type equal in level to one that you could cast, so long as you were reading it from a spell book as a ritual.

Let me give an example: a wizard capable of casting 7th-level spells has a book that contains a 7th-level spell he doesn't have memorized. As an action that lasts, I don't know, 3 rounds, he can read the spell out loud and cast it.

Next question I have, what about a cleric, capable of casting 7th-level spells, could read from the same book and cast that 7th-level wizard spell.

I'm liking this idea, thematically, in the sense that it captures the essence of a spell-book in fantasy literature. Would it be best done as a feat, or as independent magic items, or both?

Follow-up question, what would be the implications if the spell-level restriction was removed, and you instead based it off a spellcraft check or UMD? Then your fighter could cast spells, too.

(Note: I know that this is sort of like the way scrolls work, but I'm thinking in terms on not single-use, and something that you could collect a number of throughout a campaign.)

Well, 3.5 game balance is based on spells per day. You can get around that without problems, but you usually sacrifice power and versatility for it (like the Warlock.) The biggest problem here is that the utility spells are ridiculous, and allow a wizard to replace almost any member of a normal adventuring party (clerics even more so.)

One way to get around it might be rare and expensive material components (more expensive than scrolls.) Those tend to be common in fantasy literature.

Xzoltar
2011-01-15, 10:38 AM
In our game, we allow Wizard to cast from spellbook as a full round action, the page dissapear from their spellbook, so its pretty rare a wizard will do it, but sometime they really need that spell to save the day.

Jack_Simth
2011-01-15, 11:22 AM
Pondering a homebrew, and wanted to gauge thoughts before writing it.

What if you could cast a spell of any type equal in level to one that you could cast, so long as you were reading it from a spell book as a ritual.

Let me give an example: a wizard capable of casting 7th-level spells has a book that contains a 7th-level spell he doesn't have memorized. As an action that lasts, I don't know, 3 rounds, he can read the spell out loud and cast it.

Well, if there's no cost associated with it (doesn't use up a spell slot, doesn't destroy the page, doesn't require expensive material components, et cetera), the following occurs:
1) Nobody ever prepares non-combat utility spells, or long-duration buffing spells, ever again. They're redundant.
2) Nobody ever makes or purchases a wand of a non-combat utility spell, or a long-duration buff spell, ever again.
3) Wizards will prepare more spells directly applicable to combat, and rule combat more.
4) Any Wizard spell with a duration noticably longer than the increased casting time (so for a 3 round casting time, think 'minutes per level' - although 'rounds per level' is also possible if you don't have too many of them) can be up basically every waking hour.
AKA, the Wizard gets a hefty amount stronger.

There's also side-benefits for the rest of the party:
The Wizard doesn't mind giving everyone a Greater Magic Weapon, Mage Armor, Greater Resistance (Spell Compendium), Superior Resistance (Spell Compendium), Energy Immunity (Spell Compendium - once for each energy type) et cetera, as they don't have any associated opportunity cost.


Next question I have, what about a cleric, capable of casting 7th-level spells, could read from the same book and cast that 7th-level wizard spell.

Same as before, although now captured spellbooks are even more useful, and the boost applies to Clerics, too. Which makes the Wizard redundant, beyond filling spellbooks.


I'm liking this idea, thematically, in the sense that it captures the essence of a spell-book in fantasy literature. Would it be best done as a feat, or as independent magic items, or both?

If you still wish to go ahead, it needs to be *very* costly. Whether that's a magic item that costs the entire WBL of a character twice as high as would be needed to cast the spell, materials on the order of spell level * spell level * 100 gp, or a feat chain that basically gives you one spell level per feat (with each feat requiring the one for the spell level below), ability burn (similar to ability damage, but doesn't go away with magic), burning the page out of the spellbook when it's used, or something similar. This is a crazy-good boost without such.


Follow-up question, what would be the implications if the spell-level restriction was removed, and you instead based it off a spellcraft check or UMD? Then your fighter could cast spells, too.
Most Wizards have the Spellcraft to Learn Shapechange, Wish, and other spells by level 10. Other classes would fall behind, as most aren't int-based. But you'd need to be prepared for Overland Flight on Fighters, constant Invisibility on Rogues, and similar things.

AyeGill
2011-01-15, 11:40 AM
I'd say, have it burn the page out of the spellbook. This way, if you didn't think to prepare a spell, but seriously need it RIGHT THE HELL NOW, you can do it, but at great cost(losing the spell), which gets even worse if, say, you found out the main enemy type for this adventure is going to be invisible, you didn't prepare see invisibility, and if you burn it now to survive this encounter, you're ****ed when you meet the next invisible squad.

Pseudolich
2011-01-16, 10:40 AM
Thematically, I believe that this is a great idea. From a balance perspective, this would need some form of drawback or the increased versatility would cause various effects which may be detrimental to your game. My suggestions for this are as follows.

1.) A ten level PrC, granting one spell level in which you can do this per level, burning a number of spell levels equal to the level of the spell (3 and a 4, or a 7 for a seventh level spell)

2.) General option or a wizard variant, but you have an X/Y chance to not burn the spell out of your book. X is the number of spell levels you burn, Y is twice the spell's level.

3.) Wizard level/3 times per day, you may prepare a spell in an empty spell slot as a full round action.

Temassasin
2011-02-01, 06:05 PM
i like the burn page effect

erikun
2011-02-01, 10:09 PM
Burning pages sounds interesting, but it doesn't seem to be what you want from the idea (although I could be wrong).

I would say drastically increase the casting time: one minute per spell level in casting for a full-round action, multiplied if the spell normally requires a longer casting time. Perhaps include a Spellcraft check (DC 15 + 2 / spell level) at the end to ensure the success, for the difficulty in casting directly from the spellbook. It doesn't require the premanent distruction of the wizard's spellbook, but forces them to sit around for several minutes if they want to unlock a door in the middle of a dungeon without expending resources. It also prevents everyone from doing so - only characters investing in Spellcraft will bother with doing so.

Thomar_of_Uointer
2011-02-01, 10:36 PM
Keep in mind, a spell costs 100 gp per page (or 100 gp per spell level.) This causes problems if you let wizards cast out of their own spellbook.

Starting at 3rd level spells, this is actually CHEAPER than buying your own scrolls, and it eventually is cheaper than writing your own scrolls. Letting them cast straight out of the spellbook without some failure chance is a bad idea.

Fable Wright
2011-02-02, 06:23 AM
One possible idea: Just don't prepare all of your spell slots at the start of the day, and then as the adventure gets rolling, prepare them now and then as it suits your needs. You find a spellbook? You can prepare the spells within it, assuming you have slots left over. It doesn't break cost/level or prepared spell slots in a day, but it still suits the general feel of it.

Shpadoinkle
2011-02-02, 06:45 AM
Wow, what a great idea! Let's make one of the best classes in the game even stronger!

Xapi
2011-02-02, 08:12 AM
While I agree with the last poster (In that the Wizard doesn't need a boost at all) I think it could somehow work if the penalty is high enough.

How about casting time equals one round per level (if the spell is normally cast as a standart action), and it uses up two spell slots of the same level -like a Cleric spontanously casting a Heal spell, but using two slots for one spell - (fluffwise: by concentrating in reading this spell precisely from the spellbook, you forget what you had to memorize that morning) ?

I think the penalty is hefty enough that it would only be used to acces a spell that is, circunstantially, extacly what you need, but you haven't prepared. It wouldn't make sense to use it for buffing or skillmonkey replacing or stuff like that.

Barbarian MD
2011-02-02, 10:24 AM
Wow, what a great idea! Let's make one of the best classes in the game even stronger!

And my follow up question was: "what if everyone could read from a spell book to cast a spell?"

erikun
2011-02-02, 02:58 PM
And my follow up question was: "what if everyone could read from a spell book to cast a spell?"
Well, my idea of using a spellcraft check (above) could be used for anyone, not just primary spellcasters. It would still be difficult for a non-spellcaster to cast a high level spell successfully, but a character with reasonably good intelligence and several ranks would be able to cast, say, Knock after a few tries.


Just don't prepare all of your spell slots at the start of the day, and then as the adventure gets rolling, prepare them now and then as it suits your needs.
Prepared spellcasting already allows you to do this.
Arcane Spellcasting: (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/arcaneSpells.htm#wizardSpellSelectionandPreparatio n)

When preparing spells for the day, a wizard can leave some of these spell slots open. Later during that day, she can repeat the preparation process as often as she likes, time and circumstances permitting. During these extra sessions of preparation, the wizard can fill these unused spell slots. She cannot, however, abandon a previously prepared spell to replace it with another one or fill a slot that is empty because she has cast a spell in the meantime.
Oddly enough, the divine version doesn't seem to have this clause.

sreservoir
2011-02-03, 12:18 PM
Oddly enough, the divine version doesn't seem to have this clause.

that's because divine spellcasters can only prepare their spells once per day at a specific time. it's (probably) not a mistake.

Debihuman
2011-02-03, 01:46 PM
I've played with the same house rule that Xzoltar mentioned. If you cast the spell directly from the spellbook, it is erased and cannot be used again. Of course, there is nothing stopping a wizard from having more than one spellbook and this rule has the potential to be abused. At lower levels, the wizard could potentially wipe out his spell repertoire. It is one of those house rules that depends on having players that use it judiciously and with restraint.

Debby