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View Full Version : Tips to help Minimize your Fudging.



Gullintanni
2011-01-14, 12:42 PM
A recent thread regarding DM fudging has sparked a long-winded and polarizing debate about its place in DnD. Lots of folk are for and against fudging, and for lots of different reasons. You can find it here, if you have some time on your hands:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=182147

Now DnD is a high lethality system, and sometimes, fudging can be the least of all evils answer. But fudging is most often the result of misapproximating party strengths or weaknesses, bad encounter design, or failing to adequately protect your BBEG from SoD's. Or a Natural 1.

The purpose of this thread is to address exactly that. Every now and then I see threads pop up from panicked DMs whose party is ripping through Mooks and BBEGs alike. So, I'd like to offer a place to discuss tips for ensuring longer encounters outside of fudging. Creative environment design, better use of mooks to deplete party resources, misdirections and subterfuges that will keep the PC's off balance enough that they can't Batman their way through every boss battle...etc.

Please try to avoid discussions about whether or not you believe fudging is okay in game. This thread assumes that fudging, while not the IDEAL does happen, and that sometimes it's justifiable given rare circumstances. The focus of this thread should be solutions, not opinions.

So, with that in mind, I'll start:

1. One natural 1 has reduced your BBEG to ash. You, the DM, don't have a 30 INT score, so you overlooked one of the BBEG's weaknesses and now you want to fake your roll. There are other options.

Resurrections are easy, barring Soul Trapping and Wishes.
Simulacrum is AWESOME. Imagine the look on the party's faces when the SoD comes out, blasts the BBEG, and all that's left is a pile of melting snow. You can introduce plot hooks here...was the Simulacrum just a puppet for a larger BBEG who you won't forget to Death Ward next time the PCs coming sniffing? Did the original BBEG get away? It doesn't matter. You're back in control of the narrative. If you have nothing prepared beyond this encounter because it was supposed to be the end of the campaign, that's okay too! This is a great place to end the session! Your players will be dwelling on the fact that there's something else out there. Some enigmatic hand stirring the pot, and they've obviously been duped. Let the party sit in that and stew a little.

true_shinken
2011-01-14, 12:43 PM
Simulacrum is AWESOME.

Saying 'oh, no, that was a simulacrum' is fudging as well. Just saying.

2xMachina
2011-01-14, 12:47 PM
Also, when they DO kill the BBEG, and take his spellbook, expect them to use Simulacrum for some brokenness.

Sir_Chivalry
2011-01-14, 01:07 PM
A recent thread regarding DM fudging has sparked a long-winded and polarizing debate about its place in DnD. Lots of folk are for and against fudging, and for lots of different reasons. You can find it here, if you have some time on your hands:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=182147

Now DnD is a high lethality system, and sometimes, fudging can be the least of all evils answer. But fudging is most often the result of misapproximating party strengths or weaknesses, bad encounter design, or failing to adequately protect your BBEG from SoD's. Or a Natural 1.

The purpose of this thread is to address exactly that. Every now and then I see threads pop up from panicked DMs whose party is ripping through Mooks and BBEGs alike. So, I'd like to offer a place to discuss tips for ensuring longer encounters outside of fudging. Creative environment design, better use of mooks to deplete party resources, misdirections and subterfuges that will keep the PC's off balance enough that they can't Batman their way through every boss battle...etc.

Please try to avoid discussions about whether or not you believe fudging is okay in game. This thread assumes that fudging, while not the IDEAL does happen, and that sometimes it's justifiable given rare circumstances. The focus of this thread should be solutions, not opinions.

So, with that in mind, I'll start:

1. One natural 1 has reduced your BBEG to ash. You, the DM, don't have a 30 INT score, so you overlooked one of the BBEG's weaknesses and now you want to fake your roll. There are other options.

Resurrections are easy, barring Soul Trapping and Wishes.
Simulacrum is AWESOME. Imagine the look on the party's faces when the SoD comes out, blasts the BBEG, and all that's left is a pile of melting snow. You can introduce plot hooks here...was the Simulacrum just a puppet for a larger BBEG who you won't forget to Death Ward next time the PCs coming sniffing? Did the original BBEG get away? It doesn't matter. You're back in control of the narrative. If you have nothing prepared beyond this encounter because it was supposed to be the end of the campaign, that's okay too! This is a great place to end the session! Your players will be dwelling on the fact that there's something else out there. Some enigmatic hand stirring the pot, and they've obviously been duped. Let the party sit in that and stew a little.

Ya, this isn't a solution to fudging. This is fudging with fluff. My advice if people hate fudging so much? Don't do it. They can let random dice rolls be the final arbiter of a game, and I'll keep doing what I do.

Gullintanni
2011-01-14, 01:17 PM
Ya, this isn't a solution to fudging. This is fudging with fluff. My advice if people hate fudging so much? Don't do it. They can let random dice rolls be the final arbiter of a game, and I'll keep doing what I do.

This thread is not intended to be a debate about fudging. Please don't turn it into one.


Also, when they DO kill the BBEG, and take his spellbook, expect them to use Simulacrum for some brokenness.

Why would the BBEG let the Simulacrum have his spell book?


Saying 'oh, no, that was a simulacrum' is fudging as well. Just saying.

So how would any of YOU compensate for the unexpected? You made a mistake that resulted in a diminished sense of achievement for your player. How would you restore it?

What I'm going for is to point out tools to help DMs avoiding having to fudge die rolls.

Powerfamiliar
2011-01-14, 01:21 PM
Pathfinder Hero points work well. Ways to avoid death, reroll and add to rolls.

true_shinken
2011-01-14, 01:22 PM
So how would any of YOU compensate for the unexpected? You made a mistake that resulted in a diminished sense of achievement for your player. How would you restore it? Hm?
I never said it was a bad solution. I just said it was fudging. No problem fudging every now and then when it's necessary, really.
This Simulacrum thing does tend to get old, though. It's basically what Naraku does in InuYasha and not only does it annoy the characters, it annoys the readers as well.

Gullintanni
2011-01-14, 01:26 PM
I never said it was a bad solution. I just said it was fudging. No problem fudging every now and then when it's necessary, really.
This Simulacrum thing does tend to get old, though. It's basically what Naraku does in InuYasha and not only does it annoy the characters, it annoys the readers as well.

I've never seen Simulacrum used within DnD. I suppose YMMV, but I wouldn't mind being set up with one once in a while. Simulacrum are best used not as a way to save the BBEG anyway, but as a distraction. While the party is hunting the impostor, the real BBEG is off doing evil.

...and it IS fudging. It's just more elegant than changing die roll behind the screens. It's certainly more interesting.

peacenlove
2011-01-14, 01:28 PM
Also Eberron and Unearthed Arcanna (also in the srd) has a hero (action) point system)

The Diamond mind line of maneuvers that replace a save with a concentration check, and an empty luck blade (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#luckBlade) would go a long way on improving the resilience of your Big bads.

Lastly a tactic i use (on my strongest encounters only) is giving situational and limited use per day bonus feats (such as the luck feats in Races of destiny/complete scoundrel). There even was a template around these forums on giving a "boss" template on creatures.

Britter
2011-01-14, 01:33 PM
Couple ways I avoid fudging. These may not be appropriate to how you play or the system you use, but for me they were mind-bogglingly effective ways to improve my games.

Say "Yes" or roll the dice, borrowed from Dogs in the Vineyard. You should only be asking for rolls in situations where there is a legitimate challenge. If you have a clue you want the players to find, don't make them roll for it, if them having the clue is the crux of the adventure. If they have to sneak into a castle, let them sneak in somehow unless it matters if they get caught.

This minimizes the amount of dice rolls, minimizes wasted time to repeated dice rolls while you wait for the right result and keeps you as the DM from having to fudge a lot to keep people on track. Unless failure has an interesting consequence, or someone is activly opposing the player/players, let them achieve their goal or give them the relevant plot info.

Directly related to that is Let It Ride, which is a rule from Luke Crane's Burning Wheel. Players get one roll at any given non-combat thing. One chance to pick the lock. One roll to sneak into the castle. One oppportunity to convince the king to let them have the magic doodad. Mind you, to make this work you need to be willing to Set Stakes for failure and success before the dice are rolled, and you have to have interesting consequences for failure.

Now, please note that Letting it Ride doesn't mean there is no other chance at doing a thing. But if, for example, you try to pickpocket the guy who has the macguffin, and you fail, that is it for picking his pocket. Try something different. Win it from him in a poker game, kill him for it, sneak into his house and snatch it, kidnap his wife and force an exchange, whatever. But once you have failed at an option, that is it. Either change the cirumstances or walk away.

By letting dice rolls stand, and using as few as possible in a session, you avoid a lot of unexpected consequences from swingy random rolls. with fewer swingy rolls, and with a clear idea of what EXACTLY failure and success will bring, you will be able to cut down on fudging considerably.

Edit: I should note that these methods work best, imo, when all the dice rolling is done in the open. It adds tension if people know that this roll MATTERS. If they can't see the result, they can't trust that the roll mattered.

true_shinken
2011-01-14, 01:33 PM
There even was a template around these forums on giving a "boss" template on creatures.
My problem with this is that I think characters should be bosses because they are powerful, not the other way around.

peacenlove
2011-01-14, 01:38 PM
My problem with this is that I think characters should be bosses because they are powerful, not the other way around.

I don't like it either. I dislike throwing random immunities/You suck buttons to my players just because (where tactical thinking/tanking defenses with feats/equipment/expendable minions would be just as good if not better). However it is a viable solution if you mention to your players first and they agree.

Greenish
2011-01-14, 01:39 PM
Pathfinder Hero points work well. Ways to avoid death, reroll and add to rolls.Or Eberron action points.

I'm not a big fan of SoDs myself, but if your BBEG bites one, have the man behind the man be better prepared. :smallamused:

Gamgee
2011-01-14, 01:41 PM
Whatever maximizes fun for me and my players. From fudging the whole game to no fudges ever, just have fun.

Curmudgeon
2011-01-14, 01:43 PM
I never fudge rolls; I roll everything out on the table in front of the whole group, and live with the results. Sometimes a critical hit will kill a PC; that's one of the risks of adventuring. Sometimes the main enemy will suffer an early death; that's a risk, too.

What I use to keep encounters interesting is flexibility with reinforcements. It's unreasonable most of the time to assume that all of an enemy's forces will be sitting around their campsite/adjacent to the keep's treasure vault/massed to ambush the party. Instead there will be a smaller ready force, and that force can call for reinforcements through a local alarm, the Sending spell, or other appropriate means.

If the dice are rolling poorly for the players, the reinforcement party will be slow to arrive. If they're rolling particularly well, reinforcements could happen to be closer than usual. And if the enemies' leader is killed quickly, grief and rage might prompt the followers to blow all their resources against the PCs in a bitter fight to the death rather than withdraw and regroup when weakened.

Gullintanni
2011-01-14, 01:48 PM
I don't like it either. I dislike throwing random immunities/You suck buttons to my players just because (where tactical thinking/tanking defenses with feats/equipment/expendable minions would be just as good if not better). However it is a viable solution if you mention to your players first and they agree.

I don't mind arbitrary immunities IF you build in fails and clues. For example, the BBEG has immunity to death effects, but only so long as a number of wards remains active.

Tip the party off, let em know to dish out a couple of disjunctions and then let the SoD's fly. Surmountable tactical obstacles, without templating.

true_shinken
2011-01-14, 02:03 PM
I don't mind arbitrary immunities IF you build in fails and clues. For example, the BBEG has immunity to death effects, but only so long as a number of wards remains active.
But then they are not arbitrary immunities, are they?

2xMachina
2011-01-14, 02:05 PM
Why would the BBEG let the Simulacrum have his spell book?



I'm not saying that it does, but one day, the BBEG WILL fall to the PC's. When it happens, the PC's will use it.

Hmm... I just realized that you might just end it there. I guess I'm more used to a campaign continuing on with a different plot.

Gullintanni
2011-01-14, 02:06 PM
But then they are not arbitrary immunities, are they?

Well...arbitrary in the sense that anything in DnD is arbitrary. I arbitrarily decide to add monsters to an empty room every time I populate a dungeon. The immunities are just not insurmountable in this case. Regardless, I'd be artificially lengthening the fight by throwing a non-standard obstacle at the party just to lengthen the fight.

The difference between that and fudging is that the party should be forewarned in one manner or another, and so be able to be prepare for it to an extent.


I'm not saying that it does, but one day, the BBEG WILL fall to the PC's. When it happens, the PC's will use it.

Hmm... I just realized that you might just end it there. I guess I'm more used to a campaign continuing on with a different plot.

The BBEG could be a sorcerer. Or have cast Simulacrum from a scroll. Or do the old Mario maneuver. The spell's in another castle spellbook.

peacenlove
2011-01-14, 02:09 PM
I don't mind arbitrary immunities IF you build in fails and clues. For example, the BBEG has immunity to death effects, but only so long as a number of wards remains active.

Tip the party off, let em know to dish out a couple of disjunctions and then let the SoD's fly. Surmountable tactical obstacles, without templating.

First of all trigger happy disjunction use equals no loot and the retribution of the DM with equal amounts of disjunction. Also a technique feasible at 17th level or more.
These are not arbitary (and not my problem). These are resettable traps which contain the death ward spell, and the bad guy stands over it. A rogue can disarm it, a barbarian with an adamantite axe and a surly attitude can smash it and so on.
I mean irremovable immunities, granted by a template, that need extreme knowledge of the game and specialized tools to be taken of (in the specific case of a dangerous template only an arcanist with the polymorph any object spell can overcome it).
These i don't like. When i am making an encounter i intend for my players to use their capabilities, not stand clueless in front of a problem just because there is some arbitary way of being solved.

EDIT: A simulacrum, albeit a useful tactic, can be countered by true seeing and greater arcane sight, and is easily detected by a spot check. Then they will just capture it and interrogate it / probe it with divinations.

ericgrau
2011-01-14, 02:12 PM
If you fudge SoDs on BBEGs it'll discourage future SoDs and thus you won't need to fudge as much. Especially since SoDs have a low chance of success on BBEGs and LBEGs anyway. Simalucrum could be useful as a defensive method even without fudging, i.e. whether or not the PCs SoD. Then there's the Magneto method or "The King always sends his pawns out first" or having a cleric handy to remove/restoration/etc.

Gullintanni
2011-01-14, 02:14 PM
First of all trigger happy disjunction use equals no loot and the retribution of the DM with equal amounts of disjunction. Also a technique feasible at 17th level or more.
These are not arbitary (and not my problem). These are resettable traps which contain the death ward spell, and the bad guy stands over it. A rogue can disarm it, a barbarian with an adamantite axe and a surly attitude can smash it and so on.
I mean irremovable immunities, granted by a template, that need extreme knowledge of the game and specialized tools to be taken of (in the specific case of a dangerous template only an arcanist with the polymorph any object spell can overcome it).
These i don't like.

Not necessarily a trap. Could just be a spell sustained by a crystal sitting on the BBEG's throne. However you choose to flavor or mechanize it is ultimately irrelevant. You just need to offer a countermeasure. Otherwise I agree with you. Irremovable immunities are just fudging without using dice. Granted you can add immunities using existing templates, so I suppose including a Boss template isn't that horrendous. It's just not my preferred mechanic...also other templates usually have weaknesses. Liches may be immune to anything that requires a fort Save, but turning still works plenty well.



EDIT: A simulacrum, albeit a useful tactic, can be countered by true seeing and greater arcane sight, and is easily detected by a spot check. Then they will just capture it and interrogate it / probe it with divinations.

Simulacrum only grants a Spot check if the party is familiar with the original. And the roll is opposed to the caster's disguise check. The DC 20 Sense Motive check, on the other hand, would be easy to pass. But again, familiarity required. True Seeing and Arcane Sight are fine. Forcing the party to prepare and spends those spells means that the BBEG has two less spell slots to worry about.

Oracle_Hunter
2011-01-14, 02:17 PM
The best way is - as suggested above - to integrate a mechanic for fudging.

Another popular one is the Plot Chip mechanic. As a DM, you can Fudge things to save your BBEGs but - in so doing, you give the Party a Plot Chip which they can use to alter the narrative at some point.

So instead of "um, snow-clone!" when you forget an important bit of Plot Armor for your BBEG you can say "ha ha, you got me. Well, I'm using a Fudge on this one - he passes his save, so here's your chip." Provided you're the sort of DM who cares about whether their BBEGs die in round 1 or round 10, this sort of recipicol system gives you (the DM) an incentive to only Fudge when you need it; every Fudge gives your Players the ability to screw around with your story too!

Defining the powers of Plot Chips is important, but they can be
- Automatically pass a saving throw I failed
- Narrate "another way" into a situation (e.g. a secret door or window to escape from)

Personally, I just play systems where my BBEGs can't be taken out by a lucky shot in Round 1 :smallcool:

Britter
2011-01-14, 02:22 PM
Plot tokens, like Oracle Hunter mentions, are awesome fun times. Seriously. Look up the way 7th Sea handles drama dice as a really solid example of a way to create a fair and balanced set of fudging rules.

Essentially, the players and the Dm both have a pool of plot dice. When a player spends on of his or her dice (on a reroll, or a bonus, or a retcon, or adding an element to the scene) that die becomes part of the DMs pool. Once the Dm uses dice out of his pool, thye are out of play till the end of the scene. Players are rewarded new plot dice based on doing awesome, dramatic things.

It is a really good system if you want to fudge, and gives the players a way to influence the game in a similar fashion.