Did the Oracle defeat Xykon? [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Shoelessgdowar

2011-01-14, 05:12 PM

Commander672

2011-01-14, 05:14 PM

He wrote himself a note and taped it in front of his eyes. Moving on.

Kobold-Bard

2011-01-14, 05:15 PM

Okay, due to a couple other posts I was looking over, I came across a odd little panel that leads me to believe a few things.

1) The Oracle lied (nothing new with this, but still)
2) The Oracle changed the future he predicted (leading to 1)
3) As long as the Oracle never returns, Xykon is stuck in an infinite loop that will cause 2 too remain true leading to 1.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0737.html

Panel 9

Xykon never gets a prediction answer, leaves, forgets everthing about being in the valley, re-enters, finds the sign again, leaves, forgets everthing about being in the valley, re-enters, finds the sign again, leaves... repeats ad infinitum.

Or maybe he got an answer later.

Or maybe the memory charm means he thinks he got an answer but it was so stupid/useless he decided to just forget that too.

Or maybe Xykon is an idiot and forgets stuff all the time, so this is nothing new.

You may be over thinking that just a bit.

Querzis

2011-01-14, 05:24 PM

1) The Oracle lied (nothing new with this, but still)
2) The Oracle changed the future he predicted (leading to 1)

Ok, regardless of your infinite memory loss thing for Xykon, why do you think that? What in that panel make you think he lied or that he changed the future he predicted? And even if he changed the future he predicted (which he cant, otherwise he woudnt have gotten killed by Belkar) how does that make it lying? Who is he lying to, the future?

By the way, Haley, Celia and Belkar didnt get any answers either when they went to the Oracle and they didnt get stuck in an infinite loop.

Vladislav

2011-01-14, 05:24 PM

3) As long as the Oracle never returns, Xykon is stuck in an infinite loop that will cause 2 too remain true leading to 1.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0737.html

Panel 9
I call your strip 737, Panel 9, and raise you Strip 571 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0571.html), panel 6. The oracle will return, at least once, on March 26, 1187.

KingFlameHawk

2011-01-14, 05:26 PM

I don't think so. Remember when Haley and Celia went to the oracle and didn't get an answer. When they left they didn't remember about meeting him or belkar killing him but reasoned after that he wasn't home (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0570.html). this is mostly what happened to Xykon, he went to the oracle, left, was hit by the memory charm and rationalized his lack of knowledge some how. Remember the oracle once stated that he hates visitors so it would be counter productive to create an infinite loop of vistors.

Swordpriest

2011-01-14, 05:34 PM

Okay, due to a couple other posts I was looking over, I came across a odd little panel that leads me to believe a few things.

1) The Oracle lied (nothing new with this, but still)
2) The Oracle changed the future he predicted (leading to 1)
3) As long as the Oracle never returns, Xykon is stuck in an infinite loop that will cause 2 too remain true leading to 1.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0737.html

Panel 9

Xykon never gets a prediction answer, leaves, forgets everthing about being in the valley, re-enters, finds the sign again, leaves, forgets everthing about being in the valley, re-enters, finds the sign again, leaves... repeats ad infinitum.

Actually, if the memory charm does affect Xykon, he could get stuck in a loop, as you say, since he will have no recollection of going into the valley. However, he will still notice and remember everything he sees in the outside world after he leaves the valley, and when he sees that days are going past, he will realize that something is amiss and eventually leave the area.

So, he could get stuck in a loop for a while, but I don't think it would be an infinite one, because he can still perceive time passing outside the charm's effect, and this will eventually goad him into action.

Good catch, though.

Morquard

2011-01-14, 05:51 PM

Xykon is an epic level sorcerer.

a) He probably makes the will-save to resist the charm in the first place
b) he knows teleport. Roy didn't loose his memory when he got banished by the oracle. Xykon most likely won't either when he just teleports out
c) How lame would that be in the first place

Also I don't get why 2) leads to 1) or why 1) would be the case.
Or 2) for that matter.
He could have seen Xykon showing up, and seeing that sign. He therefor knows that he wasn't there when Xykon shows up and made sure he wasn't.

Dr.Epic

2011-01-14, 07:28 PM

2) The Oracle changed the future he predicted (leading to 1)

Malack said his people don't like to get involved in certain matters. The Oracle could have just seen Xykon coming and saw himself putting the note on the door, and thus he put the note on the door.

MoonCat

2011-01-14, 07:38 PM

When Haley, Celia, and Belkar left, their questions weren't answered, but they figured that since they were heading away, it was over. I assume the same goes for Xykon.

Shhalahr Windrider

2011-01-14, 07:59 PM

Xykon is undead. Undead are immune to mind-affecting effects. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#undeadType)

But for the sake of argument: Another thing that would mess with an infinite loop is that he would remember going into the valley several times in short succession. He’d realize something is up.

Also, remember, the charm doesn’t just erase memories, it adjusts them to suit the subject. So a character affected by the memory charm without an answer will likely have some sufficiently vague but believable recollection of why he or she did not get the desired answer. See the above reference to Haley and Celia.

NerfTW

2011-01-14, 07:59 PM

Awesome catch, but I think that because we've already seen one group of characters (Haley, Belkar, and Celia) have the same lack of answered questions, Xykon probably remembers that the Oracle wasn't home.

Keep in mind that it's not a memory wipe, but that they fill in the details. So if the Oracle refuses to answer the question, they probably remember that detail. Especially since otherwise, a person who doesn't have the money and is turned away will keep coming back over and over again. The Oracle wouldn't like that.

Conuly

2011-01-14, 08:16 PM

If necessary, the Oracle would have thought ahead and temporarily turned off the Memory Charm... right?

137beth

2011-01-14, 09:09 PM

Actually, if the memory charm does affect Xykon, he could get stuck in a loop, as you say, since he will have no recollection of going into the valley. However, he will still notice and remember everything he sees in the outside world after he leaves the valley, and when he sees that days are going past, he will realize that something is amiss and eventually leave the area.

So, he could get stuck in a loop for a while, but I don't think it would be an infinite one, because he can still perceive time passing outside the charm's effect, and this will eventually goad him into action.

Good catch, though.

In addition to that, the oracle will return eventually (where is anyone getting the idea that the oracle will never return?), probably soon, if not then definitely by 1187. Even so, the oracle could easily be out...to lunch or something, which wouldn't take very long. And in the worst (from Xykon's perspective) case scenario, Xykon will notice time passing, as Swordpriest said, and either leave, or dispel the effect (how high can the DCs of a non-spellcaster be?).

Porthos

2011-01-14, 10:07 PM

I would also point out that in SoD...

... we see Eugene complain that he could just walk right back in and talk to The Oracle again after getting an unsatisfactory answer. The Oracle replied, "Good luck with that". The Oracle pointed out that since Eugene was in a "narrated flashback framed by a flash-forward in a prequel book that there was no way in hell" he would find his way back.

Since the same applies, more or less, to Xykon, The Power of Plot might be enough to work here. :smallwink:

I figure that when Xykon left the Sunken Valley, he rationalized something similar to what Haley and co. rationalized and went on his way. Besides, he's a busy fellow. He doesn't seem to be in the mood for dead ends (pardon the pun). So if he couldn't figure out a way to track down The Oracle, he would presumably try something else.

As for the objection that as a Lich, he wouldn't be subject to the mind affecting powers of the Memory Charm, we have no idea how it work. For all we know, it is powered by Divine (as in Deity, not Clerical :smallwink:)) Magic (with Epic Juice flowing through). It is entierly powerful that Tiamat could have made it that so that it could affect undead.

And, who knows, maybe he wasn't affected. But even in this case, he doesn't have all day to wait around for The Oracle to return. And The Oracle has an inherent advantage here, as he will know exactly how long to say away before Xykon gets bored and tries something else.

Finally, as for Teleporting in and out, there are ways to block teleportation in DnD. Yes, we saw the lizardfolk teleport in and out. But they might have had a "key" to get past the teleport. Or the Oracle "helpfully" left the teleport block down that day. Plenty of ways to get around that. As for why The Oracle would block Teleport, more or less, in the the first place, it seems fairly unlike The Oracle to have a defense system that can be so easily evaded.

The only time we've seen it evaded un(?)intentionally was when Roy was Dismissed. Aside from that, it would appear that The Oracle has most of his bases covered.

grimbold

2011-01-15, 04:49 AM

Ok, regardless of your infinite memory loss thing for Xykon, why do you think that? What in that panel make you think he lied or that he changed the future he predicted? And even if he changed the future he predicted (which he cant, otherwise he woudnt have gotten killed by Belkar) how does that make it lying? Who is he lying to, the future?

By the way, Haley, Celia and Belkar didnt get any answers either when they went to the Oracle and they didnt get stuck in an infinite loop.

you are exactly right, i am doubting that the oracle actually lied, however he may have been creative with the truth

factotum

2011-01-15, 07:26 AM

Can I just ask...in what bizarro universe would it be good storytelling for the Big Bad to be defeated in a throwaway panel and with no involvement by the heroes? Because, assuming we're not living in that universe, you must think the Giant really *sucks* as a writer to even ask this question! :smallconfused:

Shoelessgdowar

2011-01-15, 09:31 AM

Thanatosia

2011-01-15, 01:22 PM

Maybe his undead immunity to Mind affects is the entire reason the Oracle is hiding out from him.... He does not want word to get out that the Oracle of Sunken valley is a little Kobold, and he wont have his normal protection against 'rambling on a bit'.

137beth

2011-01-15, 01:48 PM

I didn't mean that it was intended, just that in theory it could play out that way.

But you still haven't explained how. Why would Xykon keep coming back infinitely? And why would the oracle never return?

Swordpriest

2011-01-15, 01:58 PM

But you still haven't explained how. Why would Xykon keep coming back infinitely? And why would the oracle never return?

Why would Xykon keep returning infinitely, I believe, works like this:

Xykon enters the valley, doesn't find the Oracle, leaves. The memory charm erases the fact that he didn't find the Oracle, so he doesn't think he's met the Oracle yet. So, thinking he hasn't yet entered the valley, he re-enters, finds the Oracle isn't there, leaves. Forgets he didn't find the Oracle, goes back in to find the Oracle, doesn't find the Oracle at home, leaves .... and so on infinitely.

The first objection is, of course, that he will still see and remember time passing outside the Sunken Valley, so he will eventually deduce (probably after a few hours, when the sun is in a noticeably different position) that something weird is going on, and return to Azure City.

As for why the Oracle wouldn't return -- well, if Xykon really did get stuck in an infinite loop (impossible, as noted in the paragraph above), the Oracle would have no reason to return and be killed by him, since he could only see a future where Xykon was periodically showing up on his doorstep. Would you go back? :smallwink:

Jay R

2011-01-15, 02:59 PM

The one time (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0570.html) we've seen people leave without getting a prophecy, they had no particular motivation to turn around and try again.

Based on this data, you conclude that, not only will Xykon turn around and try again, but there is no chance he will ever stop doing so.

I find your evidence unconvincing.

Zevox

2011-01-15, 03:36 PM

Xykon is undead. Undead are immune to mind-affecting effects. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#undeadType)
This. The memory charm cannot affect Xykon to begin with, so the whole discussion is moot.

Zevox

Roderick_BR

2011-01-15, 10:35 PM

Yeah, Xykon being immune is a big part. But for a tought exercise: The memory charm, as I remember (hehe), is very specific: It removes details of what happened, and how, but not the whole thing. They forget the exact talk, the tests, and what the Oracle looks like, but they remember the answers themselves, and, presumably, the lack of. I think the "the oracle is out" doesn't get erased at all.

factotum

2011-01-16, 03:08 AM

I think the "the oracle is out" doesn't get erased at all.

I think it would be. When Haley et al. left the valley after Belkar killed the Oracle they didn't know WHY they didn't get an answer to their questions, they just knew they didn't get one. If the memory charm affected him (which it wouldn't) Xykon would be in the same situation. Even if he went back once to double-check, next time he left he'd remember that he'd tried to visit the Oracle twice and got no answer each time--he'd have to be a major-league moron to continue going back in the hope of getting an answer!

Hear

2011-01-16, 05:23 AM

I dont know if somebody said this already, but xykon is a lich meaning he is not affected by mind altering spells
oh wait somebody did:smallredface:

Shoelessgdowar

2011-01-16, 12:43 PM

I think it would be. When Haley et al. left the valley after Belkar killed the Oracle they didn't know WHY they didn't get an answer to their questions, they just knew they didn't get one. If the memory charm affected him (which it wouldn't) Xykon would be in the same situation. Even if he went back once to double-check, next time he left he'd remember that he'd tried to visit the Oracle twice and got no answer each time--he'd have to be a major-league moron to continue going back in the hope of getting an answer!

Um... so... uh... your argument is Xykon would have to be Xykon to continue to go back in hope of an answer?

Swordpriest

2011-01-16, 12:50 PM

Um... so... uh... your argument is Xykon would have to be Xykon to continue to go back in hope of an answer?

Yes, he is a moron, but the fact that he's immune to mind-affecting spells blows the whole possibility out of the water, anyway, because the memory charm has no effect on him whatsoever. And even a moron would eventually realize, by the change of the days and seasons, that time was passing and he wasn't going anywhere.

NerfTW

2011-01-16, 03:26 PM

When has Xykon ever been shown to be a moron? :smallconfused:

Fickle, short attention span, would rather just throw minions at the problem and then crush it with overwhelming force, yes, but none of those make him a moron. He acts that way because he has the power to back it up, not because he's stupid.

He is constantly shown planning ahead when needed. In SOD, he
soul binds Lirian and Dorukon because he knows they have allies who might raise them. He also allows Right Eye to get as close as he does as a way of breaking Red Cloak.

In the comic, he planned an escapable trap for Miko so she'd go on ahead, allowing him to scry on the throne room through a piece of her cloak. He planned a rather ingenious method of taking out a room full of Paladins instead of facing them head on.

One could argue the forgetting about immunities was a stupid move, but that's one mistake from a character we've seen succeed at everything he's done.

If he found himself turned around after exiting the valley, he'd guess the same as Haley did, that the Oracle wasn't home. (Only in his case, he'd be right.)

Kish

2011-01-16, 03:27 PM

Um... so... uh... your argument is Xykon would have to be Xykon to continue to go back in hope of an answer?
Yes, that Xykon is known for obsessive repetition of a single action, and never getting bored.

factotum

2011-01-16, 05:12 PM

Um... so... uh... your argument is Xykon would have to be Xykon to continue to go back in hope of an answer?

No, because Xykon isn't a moron. He wasn't a moron even when he was alive, and the +2 Int he got when he became a lich means he's even less of one now. As the man hideous mockery of life powered by dark energy himself said, "Don't confuse not caring with not knowing.".

Lemonus

2011-01-16, 09:28 PM

I think people are just over-thinking this.

sirveaux

2011-01-17, 11:20 AM

While I agree that Xykon is probably immune to the Memory Charm (unless Tiamat has it divinely-powered), I can't help but fear what consequences the Oracle's absence and Xykon's boredom will have on the citizenry of Lickmyorangeballshalfling.

Swordpriest

2011-01-17, 11:24 AM

theinsulabot

2011-01-17, 11:27 AM

I think people are just over-thinking this.

On this forum? Perish the thought.

Shoelessgdowar

2011-01-17, 01:45 PM

No, because Xykon isn't a moron. He wasn't a moron even when he was alive, and the +2 Int he got when he became a lich means he's even less of one now. As the man hideous mockery of life powered by dark energy himself said, "Don't confuse not caring with not knowing.".

Are you sure you're reading the same comic? I'm fairly sure that Xykon has been shown frequently to be a moron... a powerful moron... but a moron none the less.

He let the length of a name be a deciding factor in allying himself with someone... he used spells against ghosts that were not only ineffectual, but potentially completely useless. He tortured O-Chul for pointless amusement that conflicted with his plans. He trusts Redcloak with his phylactery.

And you can be a smart moron... he may have intelligence and charisma, but not wisdom. I'd need to check my DnD classes and races, but first the +2 Intelligence could just raise him from a 4 to a 6, and second depending on classes, you only need 1 or 2 of the 3 mental attributes to be effective with certain classes, and if he just needs intelligence and charisma, which I think is the primaries for sorcerer, then he can have an okay intelligence, huge charisma, and a 3 for wisdom, and still be a majorly powerful moron.

137beth

2011-01-17, 02:52 PM

1. Even a moron can notice time passing
2. He is immune to mind-affecting effects, so he remembers that the oracle is out:|

Querzis

2011-01-17, 04:17 PM

He let the length of a name be a deciding factor in allying himself with someone...

Which proves what except that hes evil and lazy?

he used spells against ghosts that were not only ineffectual, but potentially completely useless.

And V used lightning against a lich. And the entire party didnt even knew Lich had phylactery. This isnt a comic about munchkins. Beside he pretty much had no good spells available against ghosts, magic missiles didnt work all that well either.

He tortured O-Chul for pointless amusement that conflicted with his plans.

It didnt conflict with his plan, it conflicted with Redcloak plans. Xykon just wanted to kill him and considering what O-chul did when he broke out of prison, that would have been the smart thing to do.

He trusts Redcloak with his phylactery.

Of course he does, read SoD if you dont understand why. Xykon is starting to doubt Redcloak competence which is why he look like hes making Tsukiko his new second in command but Redcloak loyalty was never an issue. If Redcloak wanted to kill Xykon he could have a long time ago.

Xykon is clever, dangerously clever. Hes also way too lazy and bored to care about anything most of the time. I think its you who got a weird definition of the word moron, having a low attention span doesnt make you a moron by any stretch of imagination.

Moriarty

2011-01-17, 04:31 PM

And V used lightning against a lich. And the entire party didnt even knew Lich had phylactery. This isnt a comic about munchkins. Beside he pretty much had no good spells available against ghosts, magic missiles didnt work all that well either.

while I agree with you on Xykon not being a moron, I feel the need to clarify V's actions here.

V didn't use lightning in an effort to hurt a lich. V used Chain lightning to get rid of the anti-caster runes in Xykons tower.