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ShneekeyTheLost
2011-01-14, 08:03 PM
Okay, I have a friend who wants to try out D&D 3.5. He wants to blow things up. A lot. Like, every action should be involving blowing things up.

So I figured, okay... Warlock. Unlmited blastomancy. No problem.

Well, I actually want him to be able to meaningfully contribute to a party. So I was thinking that he could focus on blast shape and eldritch essence invocations so his blasting does other things as well.

Here's the problem...

You've got Eldritch Cone and Eldritch Line. They're both Greater Invocations. There's nothing that can duplicate a fireball-like effect, though. But that should give him some blasting versitility.

Okay, now let's look at the essences.

Vitriolic Blast will be necessary once we start running into high-SR opponents. That's a greater.

Hindering applies a slow, with Will save. Slow is nice to apply. That's a greater

Noxious Blast applies Nauseating on a failed Fort save. Nauseating is nice, that's a greater.

Bewitching Blast is Confusion on a failed Will save. Confusion is nice. That's a Greater.

Are you seeing a theme here? Like every single flippin' invocation I've listed so far are all Greater Invocations.

Okay, so my question is, how am I going to try to make this work for him in such a way that he can be useful while blasting all over the place, without either a) running out of PP, or b) running out of spell slots. Because this guy? Yea, he has two responses to any threat... blow things up, and blow things up a LOT. So he's gonna be doing this pretty much every action.

The Least Essence invocations all suck major, but at least Eldritch Spear is worth something. He won't touch Glaive, he wants to blast, not to slice.

For lesser, he's at least got Eldritch Chain, although Hellrime/Hellfire blast both suck.

Psyren
2011-01-14, 08:13 PM
I would actually recommend Dragonfire Adept (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060912a&page=2) if you want "unlimited blastomancy." Breath weapons beat the pants off Eldritch Blast, and you get the cone/line bit as early as 1st level.

Plus, with just one least invocation he will be the party darling - namely, Magic Insight - and he has a ton of other great ones to choose from.

Lateral
2011-01-14, 08:23 PM
Seconding Dragonfire Adept. (They're easy to build, too- take Entangling Exhalation, be nongood and take Fivefold Breath at 15th or ask to remove the nongood restriction on Fivefold Breath because Discorporating Breath completely sucks, and pretty much go to town.)

ShneekeyTheLost
2011-01-14, 08:29 PM
I would actually recommend Dragonfire Adept (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060912a&page=2) if you want "unlimited blastomancy." Breath weapons beat the pants off Eldritch Blast, and you get the cone/line bit as early as 1st level.

Plus, with just one least invocation he will be the party darling - namely, Magic Insight - and he has a ton of other great ones to choose from.

Normally, I would agree with you. Here are his issues:

1) Most of the breath effect stuff happen instead of, rather than in addition to, blasting. He wants to blow stuff up. That's his primary thing, if it isn't doing damage, he doesn't want to do it. The actually useful stuff are what I'm trying to pitch to him to do instead of doing damage.

2) most of the DFA stuff require being an AE which allows reflex save for half, which means evasion is immune to you. Warlocks normally RTA right out of the box.

3) Warlock EB is naturally untyped, wheras DFA starts out as Fire, although you can get other flavors easily.

I do agree, though, Slow Breath + Entangling Exhalation = Win. It's just a shame he's so wedded to the idea of blasting.

Also, Endure Exposure would be more valuable for him to start off with than Magical Insight. Friendly Fire Isn't.

Lateral
2011-01-14, 08:35 PM
Entangling Exhalation isn't not blast. It's blast that then sticks to the enemy, doing more blast. What's not to love?

Also, how many enemies have Evasion? Basically, the ones with class levels. People use monsters with class levels sparingly anyway.

Yeah, it's fire, but fire is blasty anyway and you can get other flavors SO EASILY that it really doesn't matter. If they're immune to fire then you fire off, say, a cold breath on turn 1, use an invocation turn 2, then back to cold breath next turn. DFAs kick ass for blasting and utility.

Runestar
2011-01-14, 08:37 PM
Why not let him play a warmage with reserve feats?

ShneekeyTheLost
2011-01-14, 08:39 PM
Entangling Exhalation isn't not blast. It's blast that then sticks to the enemy, doing more blast. What's not to love?

Also, how many enemies have Evasion? Basically, the ones with class levels. People use monsters with class levels sparingly anyway.

Yeah, it's fire, but fire is blasty anyway and you can get other flavors SO EASILY that it really doesn't matter. If they're immune to fire then you fire off, say, a cold breath on turn 1, use an invocation turn 2, then back to cold breath next turn. DFAs kick ass for blasting and utility.

But applying status effects like Slow, Paralysis, or Sleep all means not doing damage. And that's some of the best effects for DFA to apply.

The GM is the sort to tailor encounters to the party's abilities. Party has a lot of AE reflex save for half? Opponents suddenly start appearing with two levels of Rogue or Monk. They're still CR appropriate, with slightly lower CR encounters that have rogue/monk levels tacked on, but they'd still be pretty much immune to him. BBEG's would also find ways to have Evasion, so as to negate his primary threat.

By having EB as a RTA and Eldritch Cone/Line, he could either apply reflex for half, or RTA, depending on if the critter had an obnoxious touch AC or evasion.


Why not let him play a warmage with reserve feats?

Because a) reserve feats don't both do damage and do something actually useful, b) because he would run out of spells in the first encounter, somehow, and be unable to use them, and c) because both Warlock and DFA are about twelve times better.

Psyren
2011-01-14, 08:40 PM
Warlocks don't blow things up either though. They snipe. (Poorly.)

Eldritch Cone, Line and Doom are just as vulnerable to Evasion as breath is. Chain isn't, but you need to almost be at the endgame to hit more than two enemies at a time.

Breathing lightning at will counts as blowing things up to me...

JeminiZero
2011-01-14, 08:40 PM
Maybe run with a 4 Warlock / 1 Wizard or Sorcerer (Precocious Apprentice) / 10 Eldritch Theurge?

Get Vitriolic to ignore SR, and for all the other miscellaneous status effects, use Spellblast to combine Eldritch Blast with an area spell.

ShneekeyTheLost
2011-01-14, 08:44 PM
Warlocks don't blow things up either though. They snipe. (Poorly.)

Eldritch Cone, Line and Doom are just as vulnerable to Evasion as breath is. Chain isn't, but you need to almost be at the endgame to hit more than two enemies at a time.

Breathing lightning at will counts as blowing things up to me...

It does damage, that counts as blasting in his book.

With Essences like Hindering Blast, Bewitching Blast, and Nauseating Blast, it does damage AND applies status effect. Better than just sniping.

Cone and Line (doom suck) are to give him an option to AE. Options are good. Options means the GM can't tailor encounters to ignore you.

Greenish
2011-01-14, 08:45 PM
Options are good. Options means the GM can't tailor encounters to ignore you.Would he if he could? :smallconfused:

Saint GoH
2011-01-14, 08:55 PM
If you aren't opposed to Homebrew I believe there is a PrC here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=10161922) that (poor layout and fluff design aside) really excels at being a 'Blaster Lock'. Plus, its capstone is being able to literally become an artillery cannon. How cool is that?

You even have some room for Hellfire Warlock in there. Win.

ShneekeyTheLost
2011-01-14, 08:56 PM
Would he if he could? :smallconfused:



The GM is the sort to tailor encounters to the party's abilities. Party has a lot of AE reflex save for half? Opponents suddenly start appearing with two levels of Rogue or Monk. They're still CR appropriate, with slightly lower CR encounters that have rogue/monk levels tacked on, but they'd still be pretty much immune to him. BBEG's would also find ways to have Evasion, so as to negate his primary threat.

In a word... yes.


If you aren't opposed to Homebrew I believe there is a PrC here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=10161922) that (poor layout and fluff design aside) really excels at being a 'Blaster Lock'. Plus, its capstone is being able to literally become an artillery cannon. How cool is that?

You even have some room for Hellfire Warlock in there. Win.

Looks cool, but GM flat out prohibits homebrew. Won't even look at it. Kind of a knee-jerk reaction, but he's at least got a valid reason for it.

Gabe the Bard
2011-01-14, 10:00 PM
Here's my suggestion:

Make him a sorcerer, give him a ring of wizardry III and ring of wizardry IV, and have him take versatile spellcaster so he can combine two 2nd-level spell slots into a fireball. Give him energy admixture, so he can turn that fireball into an ice ball if the mooks have fire resistance, and some orb spells in case they have evasion.

Chances are he'll have spells to spare, unless he wants to blast in the middle of a conversation. Then all bets are off.

Psyren
2011-01-14, 10:01 PM
It does damage, that counts as blasting in his book.

So does DFA.


With Essences like Hindering Blast, Bewitching Blast, and Nauseating Blast, it does damage AND applies status effect. Better than just sniping.

Breath effects do that too, in an area, and much, much earlier than Eldritch Cone/Line.


Cone and Line (doom suck) are to give him an option to AE. Options are good. Options means the GM can't tailor encounters to ignore you.

Options are indeed good. Having said options before 11 are even better.

Amusingly, the Warlock gets either a 60 ft. line or a 30 ft. cone at 11; the DFA gets both at level 1 (half range) and full range level 10, still earlier.

I'd understand if he just doesn't want to use it, but these justifications just seem flimsy to me. Have you showed him the class?

HyperionSanctum
2011-01-14, 10:11 PM
Wilder blasty build

Super dooper awesomesauce Energy Missiles FTW

Bang!
2011-01-14, 10:22 PM
With severely limited spell access*, Arcane Swordsage actually might not be a bad call here.

*ie. primarily damage effects; things like Frost Breath, Great Thunderclap, Ice Storm or Evard's Black Tentacles. None of the crazy versatile stuff like polymorph/summons/etc.

Shpadoinkle
2011-01-14, 10:52 PM
Well, first solution that came to my mind was: Let him play a warlock or dragonfire adept (NOT multiclass, read the whole post), and give him both eldtrich blast and the DFA's breath weapons, but restrict him from any of the invocations or breath effects that don't deal damage or don't affect the shape, range, or type of damage for those abilities (so no paralyzing breath, sleep breath, slow breath, beguiling influence, entropic warding, leaps and bounds, etc. They're all off limits.)

Pretty limited, yeah, but exactly what he asked for. He's got EB for single targets and the breath weapon for groups.

Greenish
2011-01-14, 11:25 PM
Well, first solution that came to my mind was: Let him play a warlock or dragonfire adept (NOT multiclass, read the whole post), and give him both eldtrich blast and the DFA's breath weapons, but restrict him from any of the invocations or breath effects that don't deal damage or don't affect the shape, range, or type of damage for those abilities (so no paralyzing breath, sleep breath, slow breath, beguiling influence, entropic warding, leaps and bounds, etc. They're all off limits.)

Pretty limited, yeah, but exactly what he asked for. He's got EB for single targets and the breath weapon for groups.Unless Shneekey has taken to referring to himself in third person, he's not the DM (who, apparently, is very anti-homebrew).

Hida Reju
2011-01-15, 02:07 AM
Unlimited blasting is not the way to go unless its just for the looks.

1. The designers reduced overall power of blasting in place of unlimited endurance.
2. Single target blasting with a standard action is underwhelming unless it drops the Target quickly which neither warlock nor DFA can do usually.
3. Neither EB nor DF scale according to lvl as good as spells.
4. In all cases where blasting is your goal Sorcerers do it better but I happen to prefer to play Warmage just because they have a Swiss army knife of blasting to choose from.

Either a Sorcerer or a Warmage with "versatile spellcaster" feat has ridiculous casting endurance so can blast multiple times per battle and still have shots left usually.

Tvtyrant
2011-01-15, 02:14 AM
I suggest going either DFA or Warlock as well, or go Sorcerer+Reserve Feats for maximum blasting goodness. The later option is more complicated, and doesn't add that much if he is really focused on blasting.

Endarire
2011-01-15, 02:16 AM
What about a Kineticist with Azure Talent and Psycarnum Infusion for PP recharge?

Psyren
2011-01-15, 02:30 AM
What about a Kineticist with Azure Talent and Psycarnum Infusion for PP recharge?


Okay, I have a friend who wants to try out D&D 3.5.

Might be best to leave the advanced course material for after the mid-term, I think :smalltongue:

gorfnab
2011-01-15, 02:47 AM
How about The Mailman (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19868534/The_Mailman:_A_Direct_Damage_Sorcerer&post_num=2) sorcerer blaster?

Essence_of_War
2011-01-15, 03:00 AM
Even if you don't build "The Mailman" exactly, that post is an excellent meditation on why blasting can be worthwhile, and how to build a character to do it.

It might be a little complicated for a first time user also.

When one of my players asked about blasting, I set him up as a wilder who knows energy ray, crystal swarm, and just took expanded knowledge to pick up energy missile. He LOVES it. It is straightforward "blasty end goes in the bad guy" sort of stuff, and he is delighted.

Cerlis
2011-01-15, 03:39 AM
Wait, i'm confused. The example you gave of something "useful" was a fireball . You cant get fireball till like...what ? 5th level at that rate wont he have more useful Invocations?

Yea at level one he's just going to be able to blast one particular person (almost unerringly) which is awesome considering he can do it at range and snipe people (So annoying Kobald sorcerers in the back with mooks in front of them can be killed before they cast)

He can use wands, blow stuff up with his hands. I cant find a list of invocatiosn but surely he can do other things with his invocations. at least at a higher level when he NEEds to do something different he can knock people back with his blasts, create firewalls. create illusions that blow up.

I dont know, what do you want? just someone who can cast fireballs at will (theres a reserve feat for that).


and really, its close to impossible. Mages and sorcerers can do the big guns BECAUSE their sorces are limited. You are not going to get someone who can do uber damage, that can also do it without running out of resources.

(with out pulling some obscure combo out of the internets butt at least)

Hida Reju
2011-01-15, 05:53 AM
Originally Posted by ShneekeyTheLost View Post
Okay, I have a friend who wants to try out D&D 3.5.


Might be best to leave the advanced course material for after the mid-term, I think :smalltongue:

That reinforces using the Warmage it's one of the easiest classes to play right out of the box and with its limited spell list its easy to pick something out and make things die.

Thrice Dead Cat
2011-01-15, 08:41 AM
That reinforces using the Warmage it's one of the easiest classes to play right out of the box and with its limited spell list its easy to pick something out and make things die.

Yeah, but, honestly, a Warmage is like a mentally challenged sorcerer. Only does pew pew and nothing else. At least a sorcerer could grab other cool things like flying. Man, I'd really wish I could fly right now and rain hellfire from above while laughing like a madman. Or teleportation. That beer is all the way over there, but it'd be real nice to teleport that maybe over here or me other there. Not like that fat guy with a beard drinking it needs all of that, after all.

Godskook
2011-01-15, 10:40 AM
If DFA isn't going to work in your group, suggest a wilder, but find out how your DM feels about Complete Psi contradicting primary source RAW by introducing psuedo-errata about Expanded Psionics Handbook Material in the newer book.

Cerlis
2011-01-15, 12:34 PM
Yeah, but, honestly, a Warmage is like a mentally challenged sorcerer. Only does pew pew and nothing else. At least a sorcerer could grab other cool things like flying. Man, I'd really wish I could fly right now and rain hellfire from above while laughing like a madman. Or teleportation. That beer is all the way over there, but it'd be real nice to teleport that maybe over here or me other there. Not like that fat guy with a beard drinking it needs all of that, after all.

thats like saying a paladin is a mentally challenged Cleric. Or a fighter is like a mentally challenged Rogue.

A warmage doesnt have all that useless utility stuff because hes Focused on blowing stuff up. If you want to fly get some winged boots, or the loser wizard to do it. A Warmage is built to kill it with fire, and thats what they do. cant dis someone for doing only what they only care to do.

Psyren
2011-01-15, 12:38 PM
thats like saying a paladin is a mentally challenged Cleric. Or a fighter is like a mentally challenged Rogue.

Yes, exactly :smalltongue:

PairO'Dice Lost
2011-01-15, 01:31 PM
What about a Kineticist with Azure Talent and Psycarnum Infusion for PP recharge?


Might be best to leave the advanced course material for after the mid-term, I think :smalltongue:

You don't have to have the player do the mechanical stuff behind a PP recharge method; just build him the kineticist with the right powers (like Essence_of_War and his player's wilder) and tell him "Okay, whenever you spend at least X minutes between encounters, you're back at full PP."

Morbis Meh
2011-01-15, 01:44 PM
If you're dead set on building a warlock blaster then take a 1 lvl dip of binder, bind to Naberius to eliminate the CON dmg, and take the hellfire warlock PrC.

Thrice Dead Cat
2011-01-15, 01:56 PM
thats like saying a paladin is a mentally challenged Cleric. Or a fighter is like a mentally challenged Rogue.

A warmage doesnt have all that useless utility stuff because hes Focused on blowing stuff up. If you want to fly get some winged boots, or the loser wizard to do it. A Warmage is built to kill it with fire, and thats what they do. cant dis someone for doing only what they only care to do.


Yes, exactly :smalltongue:

Psyren, I knew there was a reason I liked you as a poster outside of just you spreading the love that is psionics.:smallbiggrin:

More seriously and to the point at hand, Paladin is useful when it comes to charging, and while I don't agree with how the class was handled in 3.5, I do love the archetype of a person who is able to do so much more because he is bound by whatever reason you can think of rather than "despite." Also, outside of Dungeoncrashing and dips, Fighters are more like young little Warblades who haven't quite yet figured out how to use that butterknife. :smalltongue:

I would also have less of a problem with Warmage if it wasn't for the fact that the little things it gains over a sorcerer really do little to help it blow carp up. Plus, I was trying to show how a sorcerer might better show this new player the great expanse that is 3.5 and all of the crazy little things you can do with it - and just how, potentially, he may get to that point. Because nothing says comedy like stealing a dorf's booze.:smallamused:

kme
2011-01-15, 02:53 PM
I would also have less of a problem with Warmage if it wasn't for the fact that the little things it gains over a sorcerer really do little to help it blow carp up. Plus, I was trying to show how a sorcerer might better show this new player the great expanse that is 3.5 and all of the crazy little things you can do with it - and just how, potentially, he may get to that point. Because nothing says comedy like stealing a dorf's booze.:smallamused:

Sorcerers have access to more utility, but this guy obviously doesn't want utility.

My suggestion. Make him a warmage or sorcerer (smaller spell list may actually make him think more, due to not being overwhelmed) that is moderately focused on metamagic and has the Energy Gestalt feat from CM. That feat gets you want you want and generally makes blasting pretty cool, especially if you combine it with quicken spell, arcane fusions or spells that deal multiple types of damage by default. Later on add Residual Magic (also CM) to make even more use of metamagic with an added benefit of making wands better (a simple wand of MM will be pretty effective at prolonging his efficiency for a cheap price).

Now, about him completely and utterly wasting spell slots, I wouldn't worry about that. He will learn pretty soon, if not by advice then by experience. Even if he doesn't, by being warmage/sorc encounters will last only so much time. He cannot waste his spells if the enemies are already dead.

Thrice Dead Cat
2011-01-15, 04:11 PM
Sorcerers have access to more utility, but this guy obviously doesn't want utility.

Right, I'm not arguing that. I'm just saying giving him more options ain't a bad idea, though. As the OP suggested, he's fine with non-blasty options as long as he gets to blast in battle. Generally, in 3.5, that either means a load of questionable metamagic feat choices or higher level spells for the multi-effects. There's also the fact that an iconic image of the murderously crazy mage is one floating above his victims laughing maniacally. The fact that you can't do that by yourself as a warmage is not a good thing for the warmage.


My suggestion. Make him a warmage or sorcerer (smaller spell list may actually make him think more, due to not being overwhelmed) that is moderately focused on metamagic and has the Energy Gestalt feat from CM. That feat gets you want you want and generally makes blasting pretty cool, especially if you combine it with quicken spell, arcane fusions or spells that deal multiple types of damage by default. Later on add Residual Magic (also CM) to make even more use of metamagic with an added benefit of making wands better (a simple wand of MM will be pretty effective at prolonging his efficiency for a cheap price).

Later sources do help more with some gems that are multi-threats and happen to blast. The same goes for feats, but if he's new to all of it - roleplaying and 3.5, then giving him just the core books to start may help. Although, everyone learns differently, so it's hard to say what's the best way to approach teaching him the basics. Me, personally, I just love the options offered by 3.5. It's really it's greatest strength. Thusly, I feel that he'd be better off with a sorcerer to get a taste for all of those various options even all he wants are Micheal Bay-splosions.

kme
2011-01-15, 06:18 PM
Right, I'm not arguing that. I'm just saying giving him more options ain't a bad idea, though. As the OP suggested, he's fine with non-blasty options as long as he gets to blast in battle. Generally, in 3.5, that either means a load of questionable metamagic feat choices or higher level spells for the multi-effects. There's also the fact that an iconic image of the murderously crazy mage is one floating above his victims laughing maniacally. The fact that you can't do that by yourself as a warmage is not a good thing for the warmage. Out of the box blaster mage is perfectly fine. Is it the most optimal choice? No, but who cares (he will still contribute more then warlock at levels higher then 6). Still, my suggestion was all about adding those additional effects to blasting and even expanding his endurance.

Everyone has a different idea about what is iconic, but yes spells such as Fly are definitely cool. Should he chose a sorcerer because of them? That's up to OP to decide by talking with his player. From what I feel by reading the OP, the player in question isn't really interested in analyzing his options and wouldn't care much about his build. He just wants to sling the cool looking spells that leave his enemies dead. So even if he takes a sorcerer, it would probably be OP who will pick his spells (and a lot of those spells will have to be blasty just to satisfy the basic blasting criteria). Of course, the added options may prove to be great, but the center of the build is still blasting and that shouldn't be compromised. On the other had, the player may just end up liking the fact that warmages can cast so many different blasting spells.

Later sources do help more with some gems that are multi-threats and happen to blast. The same goes for feats, but if he's new to all of it - roleplaying and 3.5, then giving him just the core books to start may help. Although, everyone learns differently, so it's hard to say what's the best way to approach teaching him the basics. Me, personally, I just love the options offered by 3.5. It's really it's greatest strength. Thusly, I feel that he'd be better off with a sorcerer to get a taste for all of those various options even all he wants are Micheal Bay-splosions.
You may be right, but OP said nothing about core only and what he wanted (blasting with additional effects) cannot be achieved with only core books. Last thing about more options, I never said they should be restricted (notice that in my suggestion I say warmage or sorcerer), just that they aren't necessary. But forcing them would be a bad idea.

Zaq
2011-01-15, 06:32 PM
Two things about DFAs leading to all-evasion-all-the-time encounters:

1) There are several good breath weapons that are Fort half, meaning that the GM will have to pull out Mettle if he wants to keep screwing you over. They tend to be higher-level, but still, they're out there.

2) If the DM would simply counter a DFA, why wouldn't he also counter a warlock? High touch AC can be had with only slightly more difficulty than evasion, and let's not even talk about SR.

ShneekeyTheLost
2011-01-15, 06:45 PM
Okay, perhaps some clarifications are in order, since people are still under a misunderstanding...

My buddy is basically wanting to pay for the first time in D&D 3.5, and he's a blast-happy Mage in WoW. And wants to continue that blast-happy tradition. He's been booted from more than one group because he doesn't like to poly for cc, because it doesn't contribute to being the top slot on DPS charts.

I, on the other hand, fully comprehend that blasting is exceedingly sub-optimal, without extreme optimization like the Postman which is a) too complicated for the newbie, and b) would cause the GM to throw books at us both... him for wanting to play it and me for bringing it to the table. So I'm trying to tack on actually useful things that happen in addition to blasting.

So, what I'm wanting to do is bring blasting, and something useful, together in one shot. And preferably do it an unlimited number of times per day. And in a build which is simple enough that he doesn't have to have a half dozen sheets to figure out WTF he's doing.

DFA or Warlock look to be the closest, but they both have problems, which I'm trying to figure out if there's a way to solve.

Warlock has blasting. Has all kinds of flavors of blasting. Has unlimited blasting. Can drop effects WITH blasting. BUT. All the invocations necessary to do this are Greater. This means you can't even start to really get the character doing what he should be until level 11. And it would eat up every single Greater and Dark invocation just to do what he wants. Assuming he's level 20 already. Which he won't be.

DFA has blasting, and has area effect blasting right out of the box, with either Line or Cone from level 1. He can also make the party immune to his blasting, which is tremendously useful, because Friendly Fire Isn't. However, all the debuff breaths (slow breath, sleep breath, paralyzing breath) are INSTEAD of damage. Which he would regard as being a short step below lame. About the only breath he could do that would also do something useful would be Entangling Exhalation. And that requires tricks to enter (IIRC, it requires that you have a timer delay on your breath, which DFA doesn't have out of the box). It also doesn't have an option for using Ranged Touch Attack for when the GM starts putting Evasion on opponents in response to his unlimited AE blasting.

The GM has banned Evil alignments (the same ex-player who caused the GM to knee-jerk ban Homebrew also decided that Evil = Jerk and actively screwed over the party and the plotline beyond redemption, with an excuse being 'Hey, my character is evil, so it's totally in character'), so HFW is out, or I'd have simply said 'screw it, just blast enough so that it IS an effective death effect because nothing will have that many HP'. Also, the only real way to make HFW work for actual damage boosting is with Legacy Champion, which the GM might get really ticked off about, although I might be able to manage it somehow, if HFW didn't require an Evil alignment.

Warmage... if I can't think of anything better than DFA or Warlock, I suppose it'll be easier to play than a Sorcerer, since you don't need to fool with Spells Known. But I'd much rather just give him something with a couple of nifty abilities usable an unlimited number of times per day and let him have fun blowing stuff up.


Two things about DFAs leading to all-evasion-all-the-time encounters:

1) There are several good breath weapons that are Fort half, meaning that the GM will have to pull out Mettle if he wants to keep screwing you over. They tend to be higher-level, but still, they're out there.

2) If the DM would simply counter a DFA, why wouldn't he also counter a warlock? High touch AC can be had with only slightly more difficulty than evasion, and let's not even talk about SR.

1) Most of those don't blast, they are instead of damage.

2) Vitriolic Blast should come online around the same time SR does to negate SR. High touch AC is a lot harder to make happen, and a lot easier to mitigate for (rod of precision, wand of true strike, etc...). It's also about options. Most things with high touch AC don't also have Evasion, so if he gets to do either Ref/Half or touch attack, he can choose which one his opponent is not designed to counter to work

Tvtyrant
2011-01-15, 07:10 PM
I would just like to point out that a Warlock is almost never going to miss against anything Large of bigger, so there is that advantage.

Saint GoH
2011-01-15, 07:17 PM
I'd also like to point out the requirements for HFW do not include "Evil".

And Legacy Champion cheese requires level 10, and since you cant enter HFW till 9, you wouldnt start seeing a benefit till after 12th level (Finish out HFW levels and start taking More Legacy champ levels).

an extra 6d6 is always helpful

kme
2011-01-15, 07:26 PM
The only thing that comes to my mind aside from Energy Gestalt (which I already mentioned in case you missed it) is Born of the Three Thunders feat from CA. It basically adds a Great Thunderclap effect to every spell you cast, but you are dazed in the next round. You could combine it with Repeat Spell to somewhat sidestep the drawback.

As for unlimited casting, I think that's pretty much impossible if you don't go with warlock or DFA. Better just go with sorc/warmage and pick a reserve spell.

Zaq
2011-01-15, 07:27 PM
Hmm. What level are you? You could do something like taking one level in wizard/sorcerer/whatever arcane class you'd like to have a single level of (maybe beguiler for skill points), along with Precocious Apprentice / Versatile Heighten / whatever your favorite "yes, I count as having 2nd level spells, really" trick is. For the next four levels, take a minimum of two levels of totemist, a minimum of one level of warlock, and then one level of either totemist or warlock. Go Soulcaster, advancing Totemist and Warlock. Totemists get some pretty slick breath weapons, while warlock provides your basic lazor pew pew like it always does. Tell your friend to ignore the Vancian entry class (Soulcaster requires 2nd level spells, but once you've qualified for it, there's nothing preventing you from advancing Warlock with it) and then just go to town. Help him pick the appropriate melds, of course, but totemists can make pretty solid mock-DFAs if you build for it. You'd do most of the heavy lifting, but just tell your friend "ok, you can do your lazor pew pew like this, or your breath weapon like this, and you've got these background benefits as well" and the character should be relatively easy to play on a surface level.

Psyren
2011-01-15, 07:35 PM
About the only breath he could do that would also do something useful would be Entangling Exhalation. And that requires tricks to enter (IIRC, it requires that you have a timer delay on your breath, which DFA doesn't have out of the box).

It requires no such thing. All you need is (a) a breath weapon and (b) dragonblood subtype (DFA gets this at level 1 regardless of race.) It lasts for 1d4 rounds whether your breath weapon has a cooldown or not.


It also doesn't have an option for using Ranged Touch Attack for when the GM starts putting Evasion on opponents in response to his unlimited AE blasting.

Sounds like the DM is the real problem here, if he's just going to hose whatever you come up with. Warlock and DFA aren't even that powerful.

ShneekeyTheLost
2011-01-15, 09:05 PM
It requires no such thing. All you need is (a) a breath weapon and (b) dragonblood subtype (DFA gets this at level 1 regardless of race.) It lasts for 1d4 rounds whether your breath weapon has a cooldown or not.I'd like to have him able to target one of each type of save for a SoL effect (Reflex, will, fort). Granted, Entangling is a lot of fun, no denying, but it's only one save type which is pretty easy to front-load, since the GM is already going to be front-loading Reflex saves for the breath weapons anyways.


Sounds like the DM is the real problem here, if he's just going to hose whatever you come up with. Warlock and DFA aren't even that powerful.

GM is... well... he's not ME, which means I finally get to actually PLAY in a game. But yes, he's a bit of a knee-jerk hidebound dink whose solutions to 'unbalanced and overpowered builds' is to directly counter and completely negate them. Basically, swing nerf bats until the character can't do anything, which is punishment enough for 'trying to break my game'.

He's kind of an odd duck about what 'breaks my game', though. You see, my Cleric, which is Cloistered and Spontaneous, and will be going into Sovereign Speaker to pick up more domains to spontaneously cast from, and will be using DMM: Chain Spell to party-buff on the fly... isn't OP. Because he isn't doing anything. He's just tossing around a few buffs and being a healbot. That's what Clerics are supposed to do. In fact, after telling him what I was planning on doing with my character, he applauded me for my restraint since he saw me as a 'powergamer'. He apparently has no problem with me using a bead of Karma, as long as it is only used to buff the party.

He's got no problem with me giving everyone effective +5 equivelant gear. He's got no problem with me stacking Barkskin on top of Divine Shield on top of Freedom of Movement on top of Death Ward on top of Mind Blank to make the party pretty much immune to everything. Either he doesn't understand what I'm going to be doing, or he doesn't realize how powerful buffing can be.

But a Power Attacking Fighter/PsiWar with Spiked Chain and Expansion and Improved Trip... whoa man, that's completely broken. Not even getting into Pounce or shock trooper at that point, and it was still considered powerful, because I could dish out a handful of extra damage per hit, and was pretty good at locking opponents down. In fact, that's what brought down the GM ban on psionics... because I could make myself a size category larger and trip things from further away for slightly more damage. Not because of infinite PP blasting shennanigans, not for mindwipe, not for any of the other dozen perfectly legitimate abuses of psionics that make them a solid tier 2-3 set of classes. But because I was out-damaging the TWFing barbarian. When I wasn't a barbarian or a monk (yea, I know... but he thinks flurry + scaling unarmed damage = boatloads of damage) or a rogue.

So the GM is already going to be nervous about unlimited blasting. His solution to blasting is generally so many waves of mooks that you run out, with time restraints to prevent rope trick/mmm abuse. But he can't do that... zomg, that must need watching.

He must have heard me use the phrase 'action economy' somewhere, because he says that AE blasting 'breaks the action economy because you hit a bunch of things at once'... yea.

So, why have I not given up on this? Two reasons:

1) Mr. Blaster Happy is a good friend of mine for a number of years who has avoided D&D in favor of MMO's. I'd really like to introduce him to the paper and dice side of the force.

2) I'm not running it! No, really. I don't think I've played, rather than ran, a game since the previous millennium. This is my chance to NOT have to run everything. And I'm going to take it. Even if the GM is a bit... er... eccentric.

I suppose I could help him build a DFA that focuses really hard on boosting the DC's to just power through the saves of the mooks, but that just seems like an arms race to me. Or I could help him make a warlock and simply accept that he's not going to come 'online' until level 11 or so.

I don't have MoI, and I'm the 'book man' of the group. So that book is not available for use in the game. Which sucks, because Manticore has so many ways to be an effective blaster (or at least ranged attacker) which would work wonderfully for him.

Claudius Maximus
2011-01-15, 09:08 PM
For Warlock boosts there's always Empower/Maximize/Quicken SLA, and Mortalbane is nice if you're an outsider (which is certainly possible with things like Tieflings). Supernatural Transformation might be able to negate the need for Vitriolic Blast.

I suppose things things might also work for DFAs.

dextercorvia
2011-01-16, 12:15 AM
What is the starting level? Are Flaws allowed?

ShneekeyTheLost
2011-01-16, 12:36 AM
What is the starting level? Are Flaws allowed?

Flaws are not allowed. Starting at level 1.

dextercorvia
2011-01-16, 01:06 AM
I know it has been mentioned before, but a Wizard with Acidic Splatter ignores SR, doesn't worry about ASF, and does as much damage as a Warlock. The range is a bit lower.

At low levels he's functionally a Warlock. Later he'll be able to quicken a spell alongside it.

Human will let you take Prec. Apprentice and Acidic Splatter at level 1.

I can't decide if Earth spell would be worth it or not, probably not except at low levels, but it doesn't really come online until 6th without flaws.

ShneekeyTheLost
2011-01-16, 11:17 AM
I know it has been mentioned before, but a Wizard with Acidic Splatter ignores SR, doesn't worry about ASF, and does as much damage as a Warlock. The range is a bit lower.

At low levels he's functionally a Warlock. Later he'll be able to quicken a spell alongside it.

Human will let you take Prec. Apprentice and Acidic Splatter at level 1.

I can't decide if Earth spell would be worth it or not, probably not except at low levels, but it doesn't really come online until 6th without flaws.

This is a first-time player whose gaming experience to this date has been MMO's, and you're wanting to saddle him with one of the most bookkeeping-intensive classes in the game?

Also, Acid Splatter requires an acid spell of at least 2nd level or higher, so he can't even do that until 3rd.

PairO'Dice Lost
2011-01-16, 12:34 PM
This is a first-time player whose gaming experience to this date has been MMO's, and you're wanting to saddle him with one of the most bookkeeping-intensive classes in the game?

Also, Acid Splatter requires an acid spell of at least 2nd level or higher, so he can't even do that until 3rd.

Well, you can just as easily stick Acidic Splatter on a warmage; Precocious Apprentice (which gives you the 2nd level spell so you can get it at 1st level) works for any arcane caster, not just wizard. All the blasty goodness of the warmage plus a no-SR eldritch blast would be a good combo at low levels.

Also, someone earlier mentioned Born of the Three Thunders. The real drawback to that is being dazed the round after casting it, and the Mark of the Dauntless feat from Eberron (makes you immune to daze) would take care of that. It's somewhat feat-intensive, but around the mid levels it would be a good strategy for him because, just like Acidic Splatter, once you build it for him you can just say "X applies to every spell" and he doesn't have to do anything fancy mechanics-wise.

ShneekeyTheLost
2011-01-16, 01:26 PM
Well, you can just as easily stick Acidic Splatter on a warmage; Precocious Apprentice (which gives you the 2nd level spell so you can get it at 1st level) works for any arcane caster, not just wizard. All the blasty goodness of the warmage plus a no-SR eldritch blast would be a good combo at low levels.

Also, someone earlier mentioned Born of the Three Thunders. The real drawback to that is being dazed the round after casting it, and the Mark of the Dauntless feat from Eberron (makes you immune to daze) would take care of that. It's somewhat feat-intensive, but around the mid levels it would be a good strategy for him because, just like Acidic Splatter, once you build it for him you can just say "X applies to every spell" and he doesn't have to do anything fancy mechanics-wise.

Early Entry Cheese is too cheesy for this group.

Warmage with a reserve feat is nice, but I think I'm going to go with the DFA, and simply resign myself to the fact that after the first couple of games, the GM will be actively trying to get Evasion on everything he throws at us. I think this can be manageable. And my friend gets unlimited AE blasting.

Zaq
2011-01-16, 01:33 PM
Teeeeeechnically, there's a way to remove evasion from troublesome enemies. You probably don't want it, though. It involves being relatively high level. And, um, being a Truenamer.

Claudius Maximus
2011-01-16, 01:34 PM
Seriously why does he try to trivialize the PCs' abilities like that?

It's one thing to have an enemy every once in a while that's like "oh snap, he's immune," preferably some miniboss or something. But everyone? That's just lame.

It's much better to play to their strengths for the most part. In my campaign I try to make it so the sorceress gets hordes of mooks to fry, the heavy-hitter barbarian gets to deathblow the stronger monsters, and the heavily AC-invested tank gets to enjoy nigh-immunity to most physical attacks. Deviations from this should be rare, or else they might feel like they've wasted their efforts specializing. Also it makes for a great "oh crap" moment when the boss punches the tank across the room.

PairO'Dice Lost
2011-01-16, 01:47 PM
Early Entry Cheese is too cheesy for this group.

Warmage with a reserve feat is nice, but I think I'm going to go with the DFA, and simply resign myself to the fact that after the first couple of games, the GM will be actively trying to get Evasion on everything he throws at us. I think this can be manageable. And my friend gets unlimited AE blasting.

It's not really cheese; various things that let you count as having level X spells for early entry might give some DMs pause and was probably unintended, but a feat that says "You can prepare one singular 2nd-level spell" plus a feat that requires you to have one singular 2nd-level spell prepared is as ironclad a combination as they come. You'd know best what your DM will allow, though.

Bang!
2011-01-16, 02:08 PM
Given that you say the DM's going to hit his weak spots until he's unable to do anything, saddling him with a one-trick pony class seems like a horrible move for a new player who you want to hook on the game.

Sorcerer would be the best way to go. Give the player a copy of the spell compendium and the PHB. Pick some useful multithreats to target multiple saves and resistances. Give the character a couple wands (purchased, requested from the DM, self-made or built by party members, depending your game assumptions).

The player will be left with more ways to make things explode than he would with a DFA or Warlock (fun for him; problematic for the character-crushing DM), little (if any) reduction in practical endurance, more direct exposure to one of the core D&D mechanics and a character build which would be hard to characterize as broken (even avoiding the DM's knee-jerk reaction to squash all-day casters on sight).

mabriss lethe
2011-01-16, 02:30 PM
The last DFA I built for a player wound up being the party tank. Her Con score was absurdly high and she could roll into the middle of combat and start with the suppressive fire tactics.

If you want to be really nasty, and since DFAs also get Darkness as an sla, use some of the feats from Drow of the Underdark that are so useful in the shadowlock builds. My vote for a feat at first level would be Instinctive Darkness. Turn out the lights as an immediate action and then start breathing fire. Since it's an area attack, you don't have to worry about that pesky miss chance from the darkness and careful placement can keep it out of the other PCs hair.

stainboy
2011-01-16, 03:30 PM
Seconding the psionics suggestion, specifically Ardent with the Energy mantle. 5 powers x 5 energy types that all do 1d6/level before energy type bonuses, not terminally squishy, more d6's than a warlock without much more thinking. Probably Freedom mantle for his second primary. If he's trying to build like a raiding mage in WoW, mobility = less time getting to the boss = more damage. (And Dimension Hop should be familiar to him already.)

He would have to pack a crossbow at low levels, but at least it's not throwing darts.

Of course it's not an optimized character, but this guy's new and it sounds like he's wants to restrict his options down to something he understands. Ardent is a good choice for your friend for the same reasons that optimizers won't touch it.

Claudius Maximus
2011-01-16, 03:48 PM
Ardent is a good choice for your friend for the same reasons that optimizers won't touch it.

What? Ardents rule.

dextercorvia
2011-01-16, 04:19 PM
This is a first-time player whose gaming experience to this date has been MMO's, and you're wanting to saddle him with one of the most bookkeeping-intensive classes in the game?

Also, Acid Splatter requires an acid spell of at least 2nd level or higher, so he can't even do that until 3rd.

I only suggested Wizard because it has the fastest access to new spell levels. Sorcerer or Warmage would work almost as well.

Someone already pointed out that I mentioned Precocious Apprentice, and if that is too cheesy for the group, I probably shouldn't suggest a Naenhoon Illumian Cleric with Heighten and the Fire domain for 9d6 burst at level 3.

BenInHB
2011-01-16, 05:20 PM
Have him be a Wilder. Tell him he can blast things so hard that he might even stun himself with his own awesomeness. At level 3 a Wilder using Wild Surge can make a ranged Touch attack that does 5d6+5 damage!! and they can change the flavor to whatever element they like. A Warlock is doing 2d6 with EB and a Sorc is doing 2d8 with an lesser orb of Whatever. The Warlock has the advantage of doing this all day and never running out but a Wilder can still Energy Ray for 5d6+5 4-6 times per day or do 3d6+3 13-19 times per day. I think that is plenty to handle most encounters but that will vary from DM to DM.

Later they get a power that mimic fireball, but again you can switch elements on the fly to get different bonuses or to bypass resistance and you can augment it to raise the DC or increase the damage and wildsurging lets you do it for free and above your character level. So at 7th Level a Wilder is doing an Energy Burst for 10d6+10 and they can do it at least 7 times a day, a 7th level Sorc is doing a fireball for 7d6 and he can do it at least 4 times a day. I'm not familiar with what a Warlock can do as far as AoE's similar to fireball.

stainboy
2011-01-16, 05:53 PM
Not much. Their baseline damage is 1d6/2 levels. AoEing with it requires an invocation, and they only get 12 invocations known over 20 levels. There's an item that gives more Eldrich Blast damage but I don't even think you can get it to 1d6/level.

The warlock's strengths are being invisible and flying whenever they want and having at-will Dispel Magic and field control spells. You could build a blaster warlock around Use Magic Device (they can take 10 on it) but that's an advanced topic.

ShneekeyTheLost
2011-01-16, 08:15 PM
Psionics are prohibited by order of GM. And I don't own Complete Psionics anyways. So Ardents are not an option even if they weren't in the psi-ban.

At least with breath or eldritch blast, he can do something while he is blasting. Metabreath feats or eldritch essences. With reserve feats, he'll only be doing sub-par damage. I'm trying to help him contribute WHILE blasting, taking into consideration the player's desire to not take an action unless it does damage.

Benly
2011-01-16, 08:41 PM
My vote is for "sorcerer with at least one or two good blast spells at each spell level". He's not likely to actually run out of slots anytime soon when all of them can be used for blasting, and the other spells known can be used for when he doesn't feel like exploding something. A reserve feat can help if you're really worried about running out; he just has to remember it's not the first line of assault, but rather the "I don't want to whip out a crossbow at this point" option.

Tvtyrant
2011-01-16, 09:48 PM
By level ten a Warlock can fire its Eldritch blast twice a turn three turns in a row if they use Quicken SLA as the Eldritch blast is always considered to be a level 1 SLA.

true_shinken
2011-01-16, 10:03 PM
Everyone knows how much I love Warlocks, but the money is on the DFA here. About countering evasion, I think there is a spell to transform your breath weapon in a ranged touch attack. I'll try to find it. No, there isn't (at least not in Spell Compendium). :smallannoyed:

ShneekeyTheLost
2011-01-17, 12:16 AM
Everyone knows how much I love Warlocks, but the money is on the DFA here. About countering evasion, I think there is a spell to transform your breath weapon in a ranged touch attack. I'll try to find it. No, there isn't (at least not in Spell Compendium). :smallannoyed:

Yea, I'm leaning to DFA as well. With the invocation to make party immune to his breath weapon, it's a great way to hit lots of mooks every round. Even if some of them resist, even with Evasion to completely negate, not ALL of them can resist it every time. Then he just picks up other flavors to blast with to avoid elemental immunities.

Oh, is there a feat or something to pick up more breath effects, kinda like Extra Invocation? I'm betting he's going to be wanting both ice and lightning, and it seems like it's an either-or.

Also, where are the metabreath feats found? Maybe solutions to my problems will be found there.

mabriss lethe
2011-01-17, 12:19 AM
Metabreath feats are, iirc, in Dragonomicon.

Psyren
2011-01-17, 12:26 AM
I don't know about more breath effects, but there's a feat (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070613) for DFAs to grab Warlock invocations if you want some of those.

ShneekeyTheLost
2011-01-17, 01:08 AM
I don't know about more breath effects, but there's a feat (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070613) for DFAs to grab Warlock invocations if you want some of those.

No, I just want the breath effects, unless you can apply eldritch essences to a DFA breath.

Well, even then, it wouldn't matter, because you can only get one that is TWO ranks lower than your highest level, and all the ones that would be applicable would be Greater.