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Moose Man
2011-01-14, 10:44 PM
the greater phantom template:
Phantom, Greater
Gain a Deflection bonus to AC equal to the creature’s Charisma
modifier (minimum +1).
Vulnerability to Ghost Touch – +50% damage from Ghost Touch.
Incorporeal Jaunt – may become corporeal or incorporeal as a
Swift Action.
Phantom Defense – the Phantom’s Armor, Shield, Deflection, &
Natural Armor bonuses are added to its AC against all corporeal
& incorporeal attacks.
Phantom Strike – the Phantom may attack corporeal creatures
when incorporeal, though it may not grapple, constrict, swallow
whole, or any other special ability to relies on prolonged contact

Havvy
2011-01-15, 02:17 AM
I'd peg it around a +2 LA. Especially if that "can attack" means adding full strength to it. I'm surprised it cannot attack ethereal creatures under Phantom Strike ability.

Bladesinger
2011-01-17, 03:48 AM
I second the argument for +2. It seems comparable to the power level of creatures with a similar LA, like drow or minotaurs. Also, I really like this idea. I may gank something like this for one of my games.

Re'ozul
2011-01-17, 06:56 AM
I third the +2 but with a note.
The incorporealness at-will could break sneaky campaigns.
Need to get into a guys house without him knowing, well common walls are seldomly more than 5 feet thick.
You also ignore a lot of armor and basically get weapon finesse (everything) for free.

Jarrick
2011-01-17, 07:24 AM
On that note, how does the original phantom template get away with not having a LA? :smallconfused:

ericgrau
2011-01-17, 04:24 PM
the greater phantom template:
Phantom, Greater
1. Gain a Deflection bonus to AC equal to the creature’s Charisma
modifier (minimum +1).
2. Vulnerability to Ghost Touch – +50% damage from Ghost Touch.
3. Incorporeal Jaunt – may become corporeal or incorporeal as a
Swift Action.
4. Phantom Defense – the Phantom’s Armor, Shield, Deflection, &
Natural Armor bonuses are added to its AC against all corporeal
& incorporeal attacks.
5. Phantom Strike – the Phantom may attack corporeal creatures
when incorporeal, though it may not grapple, constrict, swallow
whole, or any other special ability to relies on prolonged contact
1. Nice job making it a deflection bonus to avoid stacking issues. The one who might abuse this most would be a sorcerer or other cha focused caster... who also get less benefit from AC. Others might hit a cha of 20-24, which basically means this ability saves the character some money on their ring of protection. Sometimes it might put you 1-2 AC ahead of the curve.
2. A minor drawback since few things have ghost touch. Even if your foes find out it's only a few encounters of pain and you get some shiny expensive magic weapons when the fight is over. Thus it might increase your LA as DM treasure bait :smalltongue: (j/k).
4. Worth less than +3 AC because you could pay 2 AC to get it on armor and shield at least, but this ability forces you to do so rather than either AC or ghost touch.

3&5 (i.e. becoming incorporeal and attacking everything else). Saved this one for last on purpose as this is your only major ability. Everything else put together is maybe LA 0.5-1. For that matter the LA from those doesn't necessarily add with the LA from this, since this ability can often replace them. Figure out the LA of this ability, round up a little and you're golden. I think it may be fairly huge, possibly broken since many monsters can't do anything to you at all unless they have DR/magic to make their own attacks magical. If you got rid of #5 at least #3 would only be good for hit and run or escape tactics, and then the LA would merely be high.

In fact, the ability is so game breaking at low levels and so normal at high levels, I'd get rid of #5, still give this thing a big LA but then recommend LA buyback. At ECL 1-7+ you're soloing most encounters, while at ECL <15-20 you have this annoying template that's only good for painful LA.

Moose Man
2011-01-18, 08:21 PM
ericgrau, it isn't mine. this is the original.

Chess435
2011-01-18, 10:49 PM
I agree with the +2 LA, perhaps leaning towards +3.

ericgrau
2011-01-19, 12:51 AM
ericgrau, it isn't mine. this is the original.
Wow what's it from? That's pretty nuts pulling those kind of tactics against ogres and so on.

Well, if you restrict the template to high level play then I agree LA 2 is fair.

Moose Man
2011-01-19, 06:49 PM
Mm5 Pg 130

Jarrick
2011-01-19, 09:01 PM
huh, I thought there were some subtle differences between the two, but I was wrong. That template needs a LA despite what WotC says.