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Sir_Chivalry
2011-01-15, 12:38 PM
The homebrew world in question (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=180575)

Okay, so I'm making a focused effort to build the world in the link there, and I'm trying to figure out which classes work and don't work with the concept. No need to read the world if you don't want to, here's basically everything I need to say before I get your opinions:

The world is quite harsh, large sections of desert on the northern side of the world, with more fertile land to the south. I'm toying with magic either be scarce or less played up, but how would that effect the classes?

Basically, here's the PHB list to start with, and the ideas I've had so far, feel free to give your own thoughts:


Barbarian (seems okay as is)
Bard (anteheroes avatar d20 version (pg 17) (http://theanteheroes.com/Avatar%20d20/BendingChapter.pdf) and wizards.com OA version (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/bk/20030613a), no arcane spellcasting, instead replaced with warblade maneuver progression (Disciplines: Devoted Spirit, Diamond Mind, Setting Sun, Shadow Hand, White Raven), hit dice improved to d8, weapon and armour proficiency: A bard is proficient with all simple weapons. Additionally, the bard is proficient with one of the following weapons: composite longbow, composite shortbow, kama, kawanaga, kusari-gama, or whip. Bards are proficient with light armor and medium armor. Armor check penalties apply as listed in the bard entry in the Player's Handbook.)
Cleric's flavour role rolled into monk (see below)
Druid (maybe get rid of it?)
Regdar's Repository Fixed Fighter (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19573526/Analyzing_the_Fighter_vs._The_Warblade) (post #8) (basically, Weapon Focus becomes a scaling class feature for the Fighter that he gains all the appropriate feats at those levels, plus Quick Draw with specialized weapon at 5th, Power Critical at 15th, and at 19th the ability to apply all the weapon focus tree besides Weapon Supremacy to all weapons affected by your Weapon Mastery feat (i.e. all slashing, all piercing, etc. All this, plus a fighter feat at each level!)
Monk (w/divine bard casting, one domain, monk abilities use spell slots (Wholeness of Body heals 10 points per level of the spell sacrificed [as a Swift action], Quivering Palm is fueled by a level 6 slot and Abundant Step is basically just Dimension Door so that's 4th level spells))
Rebalanced Paladin (http://web.archive.org/web/20080506095543/http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=761045)
Ranger (don't know what to do with it, probably keep it)
Rogue (seems okay as is)
Sorcerer & Wizard (need to figure out what to do with them, might scrap them, as I've gotten rid of the other major spellcasters)


Other ideas I've had are the ToB approach of just scrapping Fighter, Monk and Paladin and replacing them with the ToB classes, putting in the Witch class from the DMG as it is sort of a more mysterious caster with a nice blend of cleric, druid and sorcerer/wizard spells, and allowing classes from other sourcebooks, which I've listed in a further spoiler:

Scout (Ranger is still there, so this might work too. If all else fails, I could replace Ranger with this)
Warlock (Don't know if this counts as a full spellcaster, so I don't know if it should go in or not)
Warmage (This, along with Beguiler and Dread Necromancer, might be good as a replacement for the Sorcerer/Wizard gap)
Hexblade (it is mainly a warrior, and if warlock makes sense, this could be quite the companion class in fleshing the world's darker side)
Swashbuckler (there are some cities in the southern countries, and a more civilized warrior might be suitable there)
Knight or Bhu's Samurai Redux (like the swashbuckler, the southern countries might also have heavily armoured warriors with courtly ties. Really the two are fairly similar, though the PHB II's Knight, when stripped of all the flavour, comes across mechanically as a heavyily armoured trash-talker with a code of honour)

Tibbaerrohwen
2011-01-16, 01:30 PM
If you're looking into a low-magic world I don't see a need for a great variety of spellcasting. What you keep may depend on religion more than anything else. If the religious atmosphere is high-spiritual then Clerics and/or Druid would still fit fine.
This does, however, create an issue with balance. Arcane casters won't fit well at all in a low-magic setting, save as fugitives and rebels, perhaps even as secretly hidden government weapons (my personal favourite) which could work in favour of keeping Warlocks. If you toss most arcane but leave the stronger divine casters it's not very fair to the players. So figuring out this baalnce may well be the most challenging part of the choosing which classes to keep.
I think hexblade works nicely in low-magic settings, specifically because it doesn't have a lt of magic. If you want to take it further you could remove all their spells and make Curse a per encouter ability. Another possibility in removing the splls is to give them a mount or animal companion instead of a familiar.
If you are going for low magic, I do not see the point in giving the Monk divine spellcasting. I personally like the monk, so I don't like suggesting that you switch it for th swordsage, but I feel I should, if the choice is between th swordsage and a divine spellcasting monk in a low-magic world.
I'm personally a fan of choice, so I see no need to take out Paladin, Scout, Ranger, Swashbuckler, Samurai, etc. If you really want to restrict class choice though, I'd toss samurai and swash, because those are more contextual fluff, whcih can easily be imitated by a rebalanced fighter or paladin. Additionally, if you are trying to limit classes, choose either scout or ranger and toss the other.
I don't want to suggest replacing Fighter, Monk and Paladin with the ToB classes for the very reason that they use magic; "Blade Magic" is still Magic.
I am interested in why, if you're looking for a low magic world, you haven't chosen to simply use Iron Heroes.

mabriss lethe
2011-01-16, 04:06 PM
here is a good option then:

Have Bards, Rangers, Paladins, Hexblades, Spellthieves, etc(and possibly even the Adept NPC) be the default option for PC spell casters. There may be a handful of truly powerful full casters in the world and if the casters in the party play their cards right, they might wind up being one of them. But that would be something of a quest in its own right. (maybe using things like Sublime Chord or Ur-Priest progressions, just make PrCs like this difficult to attain)

Dragonfire Adepts, warlocks and Binders would fit in fine at this level of play, too.

Martial adept classes should fit in without any trouble. A big chunk of "blade magic" isn't magic at all and what little is of a more supernatural persuasion could simply be either preserving some lost fragment of magic, or a very recent/ new breakthrough.

Sir_Chivalry
2011-01-18, 11:37 AM
What is everyone's opinion on the Witch class from the DMG as the sole full caster of this world, a sort of cleric/druid/sorc/wizard hybrid spell list that covers some of the healing and magic issues that might arise?

Sebastrd
2011-01-18, 01:50 PM
I don't really understand the fascination with low-magic campaign settings, but to each his own. Before you go all out creating this homebrew world, though, I would answer two questions.

1) Are my players as excited by the idea as I am?

2) Is D&D really the best system to handle it?

Sir_Chivalry
2011-01-18, 05:52 PM
I don't really understand the fascination with low-magic campaign settings, but to each his own. Before you go all out creating this homebrew world, though, I would answer two questions.

1) Are my players as excited by the idea as I am?

2) Is D&D really the best system to handle it?

1) Yes. Why on Earth would I be doing it otherwise?

2) No, but it is the system my players know. For the record, Iron Heroes is the best system for this.

Analytica
2011-01-18, 10:55 PM
Have Bards, Rangers, Paladins, Hexblades, Spellthieves, etc(and possibly even the Adept NPC) be the default option for PC spell casters. There may be a handful of truly powerful full casters in the world and if the casters in the party play their cards right, they might wind up being one of them. But that would be something of a quest in its own right. (maybe using things like Sublime Chord or Ur-Priest progressions, just make PrCs like this difficult to attain)

Seconded. This is elegant. It would also mean that all those ten-level PRCs with fourth level spells that have great spellcaster flavour but are mechanically weak except for gishes would make sense as spellcasters. The tenth-level assassin grandmaster and the necromancer overlord tenth-level blackguard will both be among the most powerful spellcasters the world has known. They are overshadowed only by the bards, the supreme loremasters and chronicles of the world. Paladins, blackguards, pious templars and death delvers can be used instead of clerics, rangers instead of druids, hexblades, spellthieves, assassins and vigilantes instead of wizards and sorcerers. Also you can make a "full caster build" without having to make sure every level advances spellcasting...

Mulletmanalive
2011-01-20, 09:59 AM
There are a few mistypes in the text, including a lot of missed comma-splices and a few cases where you were going for semicolons.

Ishjuan:

interesting take on vikings, with a distinct turn to it. canabalism seems odd for a human culture or intelligent race. It is normally seen in nature primarily in times of hardship [such as beimg the rat's prefered response to starvation]. If the preservation of the warrior's spirit drives this action, does it also drive them to attempt to capture the bodies of powerful warriors to subvert their power from their rightful clan?

Makal:

These chaps are probably more likely called Makalii rather than Makalics, mostly because of pronunciation issues and the ever so slightly Greek feeling of the nation's politics.

The previous religion is interesting amd i am left wanting to know more of these with-hunters. Why are they recruited from criminals and what is the agenda here? Is the visier playing to type or is this some effort at defence against an unknown threat, real or imagined?

Cravos:

Entire culture of liars and cheats. Every fantasy setting seems to get one. Dunno why. The early paragraphs are contradictory; are they friendly, welcome merchants or mostly shifty pirates? The former opinion wouldn't live through much of the latter. Likimg the creation story and the allusion to the snake people. I suggest Inphidians rather than Yuan-ti, just because.

Kweg'Lkwal:

Is this species the same as the serpant people from Cravos? They strike an interestimg group, though as a matriarchy, their greatest hero is most likely to be female.

Early statements seem a little misleading; are warriors a large portion of the culture or not? T sounds like they are by far the most commonly encountered yet the species is thought of as a race of sages. There's a dissonence there.

If these seem a bit truncated, this is partly because I was reviewing this on my Kindle after a file port. This was eating the power like crazy, though it was comfortable at least. Later on, i'll go back through the connected races and review. Great to see some creation myths; they're kind of the bread and butter of this technology level...

Xuc Xac
2011-01-21, 12:14 AM
I don't really understand the fascination with low-magic campaign settings, but to each his own.

I don't know why others like them, but I find low-magic settings to be more interesting.

Low-magic setting:
DM: Here's a problem.
Wizard: Hmm. It's a bit off-the-wall, but I might be able to use Spell X for this, if Rogue can do Y first. If that doesn't work, I guess we could rig up something to let us overcome it the hard way. Fighter, you'll need to get some gloves, rope, a small barrel, and a few yards of canvas.

High-magic setting:
DM: Here's a problem.
Wizard: I cast Solve Problem. How many XP do we get?

Sebastrd
2011-01-21, 11:10 AM
1) Yes. Why on Earth would I be doing it otherwise?

This is definitely NOT a given. In fact, it's the number one problem among DMs in regards to world building. Generally, they spend way to much time on the minutae and aspects of worlds that will never be explored.

If your players are keen on a low magic setting where no one gets to play a full-blown spellcaster, go nuts.

If Iron Kingdoms is the best system to handle it, and as I understand Iron Kingdoms is a D20 system, are there spellcasting classes you could simply port over?

Sebastrd
2011-01-21, 11:34 AM
High-magic setting:
DM: Here's a problem.
Wizard: I cast Solve Problem. How many XP do we get?

Threadjack spoilered...

Personally, this is my issue with low-magic settings. DMs don't take into account the magical abilities of their players when designing challenges, then get frustrated when their players use magic to overcome mundane challenges. To me, it's just lazy DMing, i.e., "I don't want to deal with it therefore I'll remove it."

High-magic can be just as gritty and challenging as low-magic. If you read a lot of the early D&D modules, especially, in my experience, 2ed, the authors were always throwing in specific obstacles that could not simply be overcome with magic. They understood that in a world where magic exists, its inhabitants would take that into account when building their traps, fortresses, vaults, etc.

In a world where wizards can fly and walk through walls, rivers and walls are not obstacles except in the sense that they may drain daily resources. But I constantly see DMs bemoaning the ability of their players to easily bypass such obstacles.

Before a DM jumps on the low-magic bandwagon, I recommend getting a little creative when building challenges. Complicate a river of lava with a low, stalactite covered ceiling and gouts of flame that could strike a flying character and suddenly you have a memorable encounter instead of a simple and unimaginative river of lava.

arguskos
2011-01-21, 11:41 AM
By the by, for your use, here, have a list of all the base classes for D&D 3.5:

Class Inclusion List:


Barbarian
Fighter
Monk
Wizard
Sorcerer
Cleric
Bard
Rogue
Ranger
Binder
Shadowcaster
Beguiler
Duskblade
Knight
Hexblade
Swashbuckler
Ninja
Favored Soul
Warlock
Warmage
Scout
Psion/Psychic Warrior
Artificer
Jester
Druid
Spellthief
The ToB classes.
Sha'ir
Savant
Dragonfire Adept
Dragon Shaman
Paladin
Wilder
Soulknife
Erudite
Truenamer
Battle Dancer
Mountebank
Samurai (both of them)
Wu Jen
Shugenja
Spirit Shaman
Marshal
Healer
Factotum
Archivist
Lurk
Divine Mind
Ardent
Sohei
Shaman



I'm preeeetty sure I've got them all here. Figured you could use this for basic "this is good, this isn't" stuff. Good resource to have on hand, right? :smallbiggrin:

randomhero00
2011-01-21, 11:59 AM
One quick and dirty solution I've come up for low magic worlds is to say you can't take a magical class until you hit level 5 (or 3 or 4 or 6 whatever you want). The lore being that you must be particularly strong to handle the scarcer, more volital magic. As well you simply must have been around the block (experienced) to have seen magic before and find a (hard to do) roleplay reason to learn it. Cause its not like there'd be masters around saying FREE TRAINING! heh

Edit: I just made this homebrew, mine as well suggest it for classes.
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=10207037#post10207037

It doesn't use any magic, just flat speed.

claricorp
2011-01-21, 12:16 PM
With magic being scarce it could be a good idea to have sorcerers/wizards much more restricted school wise but be a bit meatier.

Your fighter ideas sound a bit similar to the pathfinder stuff, check that out for ideas.

Another possible plan is to have fluff wise, a previous age of great magic which was lost, but made items like wands and staves rather common.

Tibbaerrohwen
2011-01-30, 01:14 PM
Another possible plan is to have fluff wise, a previous age of great magic which was lost, but made items like wands and staves rather common.

I second that idea. Brilliant.