Help me with my Witch? (Pathfinder)

[Otherworld Odd]

I'm building a witch in Pathfinder (Advanced Player's Guide), and it appears I'm in a little need of help here. This is the first arcane spell-caster I've played and I just can't decide what spells I should put on my permanent list.


I'm going to be a 7th level witch, so I have up to fourth level spells at the moment. The trouble I'm having is what spells should I put on my list and what type of spells should I just buy scrolls or wands for?

[Kol Korran]

I'm no Pathfinder expert, but some things are similar enough. can you however tell us what sort of character are you aiming to create in terms of role? diviner mystic? illusionist deceiver? healer and support? any idea?

and have you chosen your hexes yet?

and can you spend any of your starting fortune on scrolls that are learned by your familiar? how much exactly?

[Otherworld Odd]

Well, I'm aiming for support and control. The hexes I've picked so far are Ward, Cackle, Misfortune, and Flight. I'm going to add disguise with Extra Hex in there if I can't find enough feats to pick.

And I get 45k to buy anything with my character, so I can buy scrolls or wands or whatever with that (Any amount).

[Pink]

Here's something I've found out with the witch.

Take sleep. This one hex borders a bit on the overpowered imo. It's DC will always be at least that of your highest level spell, there's no HD limit, you can use it once per foe per 24 hours, and it lasts as long as your level (which is enough to coup de grace most enemies). Unless you fight undead and things immune to mind effecting, you can basically spam this most fights.

[Gnaeus]

Witch hexes are mostly Will based Save-or-Suck/lose. Misfortune, Slumber and Retribution are among the best of them, with Evil Eye (+ cackle, which you have) taking an honorable mention. (Edit: Side note. As SU abilities, they are immune to spell resistance, meaning that you can debuff even normally magic immune critters like golems unless that particular one is mind affecting, and many aren't)

Disguise is a total loss at level 7. It duplicates a hat of disguise, which costs only 1800 gp. Much better to take Evil Eye or Slumber and just buy the hat.

So, you have at least 1 (misfortune) will based save or suck which can be used on every enemy you fight once, and you should probably take another (evil eye or slumber). I will assume that your group doesn't have a problem with save-or loses, or you shouldn't be playing a witch (or at least should skip tricks like misfortune or cackle). Therefore, your spell list should take this into account.

Will Save spells are duplicative and should be dropped. So no Hold person, hypnotism, Fear, Bestow curse or inflict wounds. Fort saves are good, because they target enemies resistant to will saves, and because witches are really good at Debuff stacking. (Example, Round 1, Misfortune to make enemy boss save twice and take worse result, round 2 Evil Eye to give him -4 on saves, round 3, a finisher like Baleful Polymorph or Slumber.) Also, other spells that debuff stack help your hexes stick, like Enervation (no save, hurts all their saves even more (may be good in a wand if you can afford). Other good spells are utility/combat spells, like summon monster or Dispel magic. Cure spells and buff spells are good tools, but tend not to be very dependent on level or casting stat, so they make good wands.

My witch Brom won first place in the Cheese Grinder tournament at Dragoncon this year. Fought through something like 14 straight hours of non-stop combats against higher ECL opponents. They are one of the strongest classes in the game.

[Otherworld Odd]

I went through everything and came up with this:

Feats: Practiced Spellcaster, Somatic Weaponry, Improved Initiative, Dodge, Extra Hex, Extra Slot, Combat Casting. (DM gives bonus feats for backstory and a bonus feat at 5, 15th, and 20th)

Spells:
1st: Enlarge Person, Ill Omen, Mage Armor, Ray of Enfeeblement, Reduce Person, Jump (from my patron)

2nd: Glitterdust, Pox Pustules, Fog Cloud, Summon Monster II, Cat’s Grace (Patron)

3rd: Stinking Cloud, Dispel Magic, Sleet Storm, Summon Monster III, Haste (Patron)

4th: Black Tentacles, Wandering Star Motes

Hexes: Cackle, Misfortune, Evil Eye, Flight, Slumber

Also bought scrolls of Status, Sepia Snake Sigil, Remove Curse, Remove Disease, Zone of Truth, and Beguiling Gift.

Forgot to mention, my useable resources are: Everything Pathfinder, 3.5 PHB and PHB II, DMG, Complete Series, and Cityscape.

[Pink]

Practiced spellcaster...doesn't that only help with multiclassing? You didn't mention you were planning on multiclassing.

Also Somatic weaponry...Are you planning to do two weapon fighting? Or sword and board? because if you aren't, I don't believe there's a reason to take this.

I would recommend ability focus (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/monster-feats#TOC-Ability-Focus) on slumber.

[grarrrg]

A Witch?
BURN HER!

[Otherworld Odd]

Practiced spellcaster...doesn't that only help with multiclassing? You didn't mention you were planning on multiclassing.

Also Somatic weaponry...Are you planning to do two weapon fighting? Or sword and board? because if you aren't, I don't believe there's a reason to take this.

I would recommend ability focus (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/monster-feats#TOC-Ability-Focus) on slumber.


Practiced spellcaster only does that? Well damn, I thought I could just increase my CL on witch spells by four. >.> I must have read it wrong. Well, nix that one.

I think somantic weaponry was on my guy because I was planning on doing dual-wands (changed my mind, too expensive and meh) and never took it off. Well I have two feat slots now if anyone has suggestions.


I'm also not sure if I want to stand back and spam slumber throughout the encounter. I'm sure my group would get pissed at me for cheese. >.>

[Arbane]

I'm also not sure if I want to stand back and spam slumber throughout the encounter. I'm sure my group would get pissed at me for cheese. >.>

No, no - spam Slumber and _Misfortune_. If your DM is using the "A natural 1 is a fumble" thing, this doubles their chances of horrible humiliating failure.

And possibly Cackle. (You can use it and another Su power in the same round, right?)

[Gnaeus]

Practiced spellcaster only does that? Well damn, I thought I could just increase my CL on witch spells by four. >.> I must have read it wrong. Well, nix that one.

I think somantic weaponry was on my guy because I was planning on doing dual-wands (changed my mind, too expensive and meh) and never took it off. Well I have two feat slots now if anyone has suggestions.


I'm also not sure if I want to stand back and spam slumber throughout the encounter. I'm sure my group would get pissed at me for cheese. >.>

What about a magic item crafting feat? PF is very kind to them (they no longer take exp to craft, and you can craft for 2 hours per day while adventuring, and you don't need all the spell prereqs). Ability focus is a good idea. If you don't want to use it for slumber, misfortune or evil eye also work.

Get some Goggles of Fogcutting (8000 gp, I don't remember which PF book they were in). Then you can fog cloud or stinking cloud, so that the enemy can't see you, but you can still crush them.

Personally, I would skip glitterdust. PF nerfed it and you don't need another will save or suck anyway.

[Otherworld Odd]

What about a magic item crafting feat? PF is very kind to them (they no longer take exp to craft, and you can craft for 2 hours per day while adventuring, and you don't need all the spell prereqs). Ability focus is a good idea. If you don't want to use it for slumber, misfortune or evil eye also work.

Get some Goggles of Fogcutting (8000 gp, I don't remember which PF book they were in). Then you can fog cloud or stinking cloud, so that the enemy can't see you, but you can still crush them.

Personally, I would skip glitterdust. PF nerfed it and you don't need another will save or suck anyway.

This is very appealing to me. I forgot about item crafting. Now I'm stuck on wands or scrolls. Hrm. Also, I can't find the Goggles anywhere, but they sound very appealing. I had in mind that I could throw the cloud on them, but if I had some way to see through it then that just makes it all the better since it would be giving me concealment if I laid it on me.

[Gnaeus]

This is very appealing to me. I forgot about item crafting. Now I'm stuck on wands or scrolls.

What else do you have in your party? Do you have (for example) a cleric or druid who can contribute spells to you? Wands and scrolls are spell trigger & spell completion items, which do require you to be able to cast that spell.

In terms of utility, Craft Wondrous items is best. Wands is a good choice also, but it is much better if you have another caster in the group to fill in spells that you lack (like a cleric/druid for all the cure wands) although a wand of Haste is definitely a good buy Arms and Armor will be a big help for your party's muggles, so if you are worried about balance issues, take Arms and Armor and help your muggles do their jobs better.


Hrm. Also, I can't find the Goggles anywhere, but they sound very appealing. I had in mind that I could throw the cloud on them, but if I had some way to see through it then that just makes it all the better since it would be giving me concealment if I laid it on me.

I'm sorry, I don't remember which book I found it in. I see it in Herolabs, so I know it is a pathfinder supplement. It pops up on the Pathfinder SRD as being in Pathfinder 4: Fortress of the Stone Giants (Listed as fogcutting lenses), but I know it is in one of the other sourcebooks also, because I don't own Fortress and I found it somewhere.

[Otherworld Odd]

What else do you have in your party? Do you have (for example) a cleric or druid who can contribute spells to you? Wands and scrolls are spell trigger & spell completion items, which do require you to be able to cast that spell.

In terms of utility, Craft Wondrous items is best. Wands is a good choice also, but it is much better if you have another caster in the group to fill in spells that you lack (like a cleric/druid for all the cure wands) although a wand of Haste is definitely a good buy Arms and Armor will be a big help for your party's muggles, so if you are worried about balance issues, take Arms and Armor and help your muggles do their jobs better.

Well, my party is like this at the moment:
generic fighter.
Dragon Shaman tripper.
Swashbuckler Disarm-fighter.
Ranger/Alchemist multiclasser. Bomb arrows and poison and such.

Then me. So I'm the only caster. Arms and armor sounds like a good deal actually. It would definitely be more helpful to the party.




I'm sorry, I don't remember which book I found it in. I see it in Herolabs, so I know it is a pathfinder supplement. It pops up on the Pathfinder SRD as being in Pathfinder 4: Fortress of the Stone Giants (Listed as fogcutting lenses), but I know it is in one of the other sourcebooks also, because I don't own Fortress and I found it somewhere.

Ah, I thought you meant it was in one of the core books. I'll go check out the modules and adventure paths, as there's almost always fancy items in there. I can bet by the title that it's going to be in Rise of the Runelords but I'm probably wrong.

[Otherworld Odd]

Sorry for the double post, but I found it. It was indeed in Rise of the Runelords.


Also, I had some questions for you veteran witches.

At tenth level, do witches get two hexes? One major and one regular? Or am I just reading this wrong?

Also, for those of you who said that witches are good or "the best in the game," why is this? I picked it for flavor reasons only. What tier would you guys say the witch is?

[Gnaeus]

At tenth level, do witches get two hexes? One major and one regular? Or am I just reading this wrong?

Also, for those of you who said that witches are good or "the best in the game," why is this? I picked it for flavor reasons only. What tier would you guys say the witch is?

I think that it only means that you get a hex, and the hexes you get may now be majors.

Level 1-16 Tier 1, 17+ tier 2.

They have supernatural abilities which duplicate very powerful spells (Slumber, Agony, Retribution, Misfortune) which they can use on every enemy. Since few enemies will make 4 consecutive, high DC (based on Int, which is maxed) saving throws, this can cripple virtually everything that they fight, without even casting a spell (saving all their spells for utility or bosses). As a SU, they provoke no attacks of opportunity, do not require concentration checks, are unaffected by SR, and all but Slumber are apparently useful against non-living or mindless opponents. Retribution, for example, is a great golem killer, since a stone golem, for example, has a +4 will save, so it will walk up to your party's fighter and slowly beat itself to death. Wow. They have enough hexes that they can do this and still take some of the utility ones, like flight.

But wait, theres more. They are also full casters. They can heal. They can buff. They can debuff. They can do crowd control (including summons). They have save or dies. They can do AOE damage. They have a respectable selection of top of the line utility, travel and divination spells. (This is why Beguiler and Dread Necro live in tier 3, they can't do all that stuff without higher optimization or PRC). They can craft magic items, and as an Int based caster they will have a high enough spellcraft that prereqs shouldn't be a problem.

They don't get wish, gate, or time stop, so they are probably weaker than a top level Wizard, Artificer or Archivist. But through mid levels, I'd rather have the witch.

Finally, like the wizard, they are Int based. In Pathfinder, that means that a Human witch with a 20 starting Int gets 8 or 9 (favored class choice) skill points per level, so they can keep any skills that they really care about maxed, and therefore make a passable skillmonkey for anything but trapfinding. They will have more skills as they level up, because a + int item in PF gives you maxed ranks in additional skills, and you ARE going to get they best + int item you can afford, right? By level 12, with 3 int bonuses from leveling and a circlet +6, you probably get something like 13 skill points per level, making the rogue look weak.

[Serenity]

Thye do get Time stop if they have the right patron!

[Gnaeus]

Thye do get Time stop if they have the right patron!

Yes, or the nerfed (but still cool) version of Shapechange. But it isn't on the base list. That is like saying that clerics get Prismatic Sphere. They do, with the Protection Domain, but not just by virtue of being Clerics.

Ultimately, the level 20 wizard knows hundreds of excellent spells. The level 20 witch only knows dozens of excellent spells. Once the ability to use Save Or Sucks as at will SUs is no longer a game winner, Witch slowly loses ground to the core T1 classes with endlessly expanding spell lists. They never fall below high tier 2 though.

[Benly]

Level 1-16 Tier 1, 17+ tier 2.

I would say that placing them in those high tiers depends on post-APG supplements. If those supplements expand the witch's spell list as much as they expand the core T1 classes' spell lists, then the witch might qualify. Remember that the defining feature of T1 is "can do everything", and the core of that in 3.5 was the eternally-expanding spell lists that noncore casters simply didn't get. If that happens again the witch just won't keep up.

My intuition is to place the witch in high T3. The hexes seem to me like the classic sort of "very good at what they do, but not gamebreaking" ability that characterizes T3. That said, I have a hard time getting a handle on the witch's spell list for some reason - my general feeling is that it's quite good but, again, not a potential gamebreaker.

[Gnaeus]

I would say that placing them in those high tiers depends on post-APG supplements. If those supplements expand the witch's spell list as much as they expand the core T1 classes' spell lists, then the witch might qualify. Remember that the defining feature of T1 is "can do everything", and the core of that in 3.5 was the eternally-expanding spell lists that noncore casters simply didn't get. If that happens again the witch just won't keep up.

My intuition is to place the witch in high T3. The hexes seem to me like the classic sort of "very good at what they do, but not gamebreaking" ability that characterizes T3. That said, I have a hard time getting a handle on the witch's spell list for some reason - my general feeling is that it's quite good but, again, not a potential gamebreaker.

What can a witch not do? They cover all the bases much better than a tier 3 caster.
Heal
Witch Y Beguiler N Dread Necro Y (sort of)
Fort SOD
Witch Y Beguiler N Dread Necro Y
Will SoS
Witch Y Beguiler Y Dread Necro Y (sort of, if fear counts)
Buff
Witch Y Beguiler Y Dread Necro N
Debuff
Witch Y Beguiler N Dread Necro Y
Summon
Witch Y Beguiler N Dread Necro N (Summon undead sucks)
AOE damage
Witch Y Beguiler Y (sort of, if you include Shadow Evocation) Dread Necro N
Crowd Control
Witch Y Beguiler Y Dread Necro Y
Teleport/Plane Shift line
Witch Y Beguiler N Dread Necro N

And then the witch gets a Patron, which gives it more flexibility. For example:
Plague gives animate/create/control undead
Shadow gives some excellent illusions which the beguiler would have to get through advanced learning.
Elements makes them better blasters, Animal better summoners, Transformation gives the Polymorph line etc.

Now, I love me some Beguiler and Dread Necro, but Witch is WAY more versatile. Through play in game (levels 1-14 say), a witch (2 spells per level + more from scrolls as available + free spells from their patron) looks a lot more like a wizard or archivist than like a sorcerer, with probably way more spells known. The Wizard or Archivist only pull ahead when they have the time + money to scribe 10+ spells per level into their books, which is hardly a guarantee in any game.

To give a better example, what does a witch more closely resemble than a Beguiler or Necro? A Wu Jen. A prepared, wizard like caster, whose only real weakness is that his list isn't as big as a wizards. Witch looks a lot like a Wu Jen who also gets at will save or lose supernatural abilities.

Wu-Jen is usually considered bottom Tier 1 or top tier 2. Hexes definitely make the witch stronger than WJ.

[Benly]

To give a better example, what does a witch more closely resemble than a Beguiler or Necro? A Wu Jen. A prepared, wizard like caster, whose only real weakness is that his list isn't as big as a wizards. Witch looks a lot like a Wu Jen who also gets at will save or lose supernatural abilities.

Wu-Jen is usually considered bottom Tier 1 or top tier 2. Hexes definitely make the witch stronger than WJ.

Hm. As I said, I've had a hard time getting a handle on the witch's spell list, but you've pretty much sold me on the wu jen comparison. However, I think of wu jen as T2 and I don't think the hexes merit a full tier bump at these tiers - they're good, but they're not "difference between T1 and T2" good.

Now, if we see a solid stream of new spells for the witch in supplements at the same rate as the wizard and cleric, that could move it up a tier, but I'm not holding my breath. Right now the gap isn't as wide between the top few tiers for PF as it was at the end of 3.5 because you don't have that ridiculously huge spell list for the core casters, but I could certainly see it happening again. If it does, and the witch is on the winning side of the gap, that could be a tier bump.

[Gnaeus]

Hm. As I said, I've had a hard time getting a handle on the witch's spell list, but you've pretty much sold me on the wu jen comparison. However, I think of wu jen as T2 and I don't think the hexes merit a full tier bump at these tiers - they're good, but they're not "difference between T1 and T2" good.

Now, if we see a solid stream of new spells for the witch in supplements at the same rate as the wizard and cleric, that could move it up a tier, but I'm not holding my breath. Right now the gap isn't as wide between the top few tiers for PF as it was at the end of 3.5 because you don't have that ridiculously huge spell list for the core casters, but I could certainly see it happening again. If it does, and the witch is on the winning side of the gap, that could be a tier bump.

The tier list being what it is, a dispute on which tier a class falls into, when it is only a 1 tier difference is unwinnable. In play, in the hands of a player who is skilled with that class, a beguiler can outclass a sorcerer who is focused on illusions, and a sorcerer (especially in PF) may have advantages over a wizard. If we are in agreement that a Witch isn't Tier 3, I see no point in arguing where the tier 1-2 line is exactly. It might even be one of those cases where the class is highly suited to my playstyle, and that difference is enough to make it feel like a T1 to me, when I play it.

What I will say, though, is that while the tier 1-2 difference is primarily one of utility, the hexes are a real shift in power. Just like a barbarian who hits for 40 damage is tier 4, and one who hits for 400 damage is still tier 4, but vastly more damaging to his opponents and useful to a party, a limited list caster could be considered tier 2, and the addition of at will, SR ignoring save or sucks might not change that in how the Tier system works, it is still a huge increase in raw power and ease of play. Not so much at the top of the chart, where the Sorc/Wiz never runs out of spells and plane shifts away if stuck without the spell he needs, but through the mid levels where the Witch uses 3-6 supernatural abilities in the typical combat before ever employing an expendable resource. My optimized witch 12 fought through twenty something optimized, over ECL encounters without a rest, and still had spells memorized at the end, and no one accused me of holding back. There were a number of encounters (Golems, Big Vermin, Hydra, Purple Worms), which I virtually soloed with just the Retribution, Agony and Slumber hexes. Obviously, that isn't a typical play scenario, but if you think of the witch as a tier 2, be aware that it is a disproportionately strong T2 with a really good trick that is almost always useful. In a tournament designed around making strong characters, I anticipate the Witch being the only class in core+PF that will get the ban-hammer next year. If you put me in a campaign that was going to end at level 16, and Player X sitting next to me said, "Should I make an Archivist, Wizard, Artificer, or Witch? Which one is the strongest?", I would encourage him to play Witch.

[Benly]

The tier list being what it is, a dispute on which tier a class falls into, when it is only a 1 tier difference is unwinnable. In play, in the hands of a player who is skilled with that class, a beguiler can outclass a sorcerer who is focused on illusions, and a sorcerer (especially in PF) may have advantages over a wizard. If we are in agreement that a Witch isn't Tier 3, I see no point in arguing where the tier 1-2 line is exactly. It might even be one of those cases where the class is highly suited to my playstyle, and that difference is enough to make it feel like a T1 to me, when I play it.

Completely fair. There's just this weird tendency to throw around "tier 1" when people are actually talking about "this class is very good at what it does", frequently from people with a very unclear concept of what T1 actually means in the context of the class tier system. This isn't the case here; you make a strong argument and I do think that future support could bump the witch up to 1. As you say, T1 and high T2 are a little blurry when you're not talking about obvious differences like spont vs. prep.


What I will say, though, is that while the tier 1-2 difference is primarily one of utility, the hexes are a real shift in power. Just like a barbarian who hits for 40 damage is tier 4, and one who hits for 400 damage is still tier 4, but vastly more damaging to his opponents and useful to a party, a limited list caster could be considered tier 2, and the addition of at will, SR ignoring save or sucks might not change that in how the Tier system works, it is still a huge increase in raw power and ease of play.

Oh, I'm not going to dispute that in the slightest. Hexes are fantastic, and having them in your arsenal also helps free up your choices for spells (since you'll have a solid toolkit of save-or-screwed no matter what you prep). An ability doesn't have to be a tier-changer to be a great ability, especially at the upper tiers.

(At the lower tiers, hexes would be a tier changer - if you stuck hex progression onto a warrior, it would jump up to tier 4, and it could easily bump T4s up to T3. It just takes a lot more to move up the last couple of tiers.)

[Arbane]

Any advice on keeping the familiar alive?

[Pink]

Any advice on keeping the familiar alive?

Don't use it as anything other than a spellbook?

Unless you're actually using it to deliver spells and such in combat, in which case enemies have valid reason to target it, it takes a particularly cruel DM to have enemies attack a small creature instead of the which causing them to trip over their own feet.

[Gnaeus]

Don't use it as anything other than a spellbook?

Unless you're actually using it to deliver spells and such in combat, in which case enemies have valid reason to target it, it takes a particularly cruel DM to have enemies attack a small creature instead of the which causing them to trip over their own feet.

Yeah. I picked bat. It lived in my backpack and only crawled out if I needed blindsense 20.

[Serpentine]

What's the Pathfinder Witch like, and how does it compare with the "Should Be Core" competition-winning Witch from Wizards?

[Gnaeus]

Do you have a link to the Witch class from wizards? I never saw it so can't compare.

Witch is a full caster with a versatile list. Low tier 1-high tier 2 just in casting versatility. Wizard like spell knowledge and preparation. They also have hexes, which are at will Supernatural abilities, mostly buffs, Save or debuffs, or Save or loses, most of which can be used on each enemy you face once per day. They are on the PF SRD if you want to read for yourself.

[Myshlaevsky]

This (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19526430/The_WITCH_Core_Class&post_num=8) was the one I dug up some time in the past. It won a 'This Should Be Official' competition but I can't be certain it is the one that Serpentine is referring to. Regardless, the linked class and the Pathfinder Witch have a number of similarities.

[Serpentine]

Yes, that's the one. Guess I mixed up the award title with the thread title. So it got an official going-over, huh? Cool. I should check it out... I do quite like that one as it is.

[Myshlaevsky]

Yes, that's the one. Guess I mixed up the award title with the thread title. So it got an official going-over, huh? Cool. I should check it out... I do quite like that one as it is.

Here's (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/witch) the Pathfinder Witch, so you can compare the two yourself if you feel like it. I can't speak as regards the relationship between the homebrew above and the Pathfinder class, but the Patron, Hexes (though greatly expanded) and Familiar all seem like adapted elements. Other features of the 'Should Be Official' Witch, like the Brew Potion feat and Coven ability, look to have been turned into selections for the Pathfinder's Witch choice of Hexes.

[Gnaeus]

Here's (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/witch) the Pathfinder Witch, so you can compare the two yourself if you feel like it. I can't speak as regards the relationship between the homebrew above and the Pathfinder class, but the Patron, Hexes (though greatly expanded) and Familiar all seem like adapted elements. Other features of the 'Should Be Official' Witch, like the Brew Potion feat and Coven ability, look to have been turned into selections for the Pathfinder's Witch choice of Hexes.

Agreed. The PF witch is a lot stronger. The Pathfinder witch is low T1/high T2, and very powerful for that ranking. The homebrew looks Tier 3. And not a particularly strong tier 3 at that. PF witch has a significantly improved spell list and the Hexes are much better than just a ranged bestow curse.

[The White Knight]

Sometimes I feel like the Tier system was developed as an incredibly genius trolling attempt.

[Gnaeus]

Sometimes I feel like the Tier system was developed as an incredibly genius trolling attempt.

Thats nice. We are using it as shorthand to give our impression on where classes rate in power and flexibility, because saying "the homebrew witch looks better than a warmage but definitely less flexible than a sorcerer and weaker than Beguiler/Dread Necro" is a pain, when it could all be summed up by "low T3".

Do you have anything to add to the discussion of Witches?

[The White Knight]

A thousand apologies, I missed the part of the post where the OP asked about what Tier a Witch ought to fit into.

I personally find the Witch to be quite versatile and capable, although I have little of substance to note that hasn't already been noted. A good selection of Hexes can mean that a Witch can be useful in mostly any combat situation even if s/he doesn't have an appropriate prepared spell, which is grand.

The "Familiar as spellbook" thing is the only part that bothered me at all. It's great that you don't have to pay scribing costs to learn new spells, but a dead familiar is vastly more crippling to a Witch than a Wizard. The Human alternate favored class mechanic alleviates this somewhat, thankfully.

Another note on Arbane's question about keeping the familiar alive: Improved Familiar, for certain alignments, can net you an Imp, which can be invisible at will. Not foolproof, by any means; but against foes unable to see invisibility, it can mean an extra UMD'er on your side of the fight, since it uses your ranks for skills. The Augury 1/day and Commune 1/week SLAs can be handy too.

[Pink]

A thousand apologies, I missed the part of the post where the OP asked about what Tier a Witch ought to fit into.

I personally find the Witch to be quite versatile and capable, although I have little of substance to note that hasn't already been noted. A good selection of Hexes can mean that a Witch can be useful in mostly any combat situation even if s/he doesn't have an appropriate prepared spell, which is grand.

The "Familiar as spellbook" thing is the only part that bothered me at all. It's great that you don't have to pay scribing costs to learn new spells, but a dead familiar is vastly more crippling to a Witch than a Wizard. The Human alternate favored class mechanic alleviates this somewhat, thankfully.

Another note on Arbane's question about keeping the familiar alive: Improved Familiar, for certain alignments, can net you an Imp, which can be invisible at will. Not foolproof, by any means; but against foes unable to see invisibility, it can mean an extra UMD'er on your side of the fight, since it uses your ranks for skills. The Augury 1/day and Commune 1/week SLAs can be handy too.

I believe there is still a cost to put new spells from a scroll into the familiar.

[Otherworld Odd]

Actually, it doesn't. It only takes time by either a Familiar communing with another familiar or a scroll, and at the end you have to make a Spellcraft check. So aside from the cost of a scroll if you're going that route, it's completely free.

[Cotilla]

To keep the familiar alive, in the upper levels, you can buy him a necklace of adaptation and put him in your bag of holding or handy haversack

[Otherworld Odd]

To keep the familiar alive, in the upper levels, you can buy him a necklace of adaptation and put him in your bag of holding or handy haversack

True. Even if it does die though, you can just get a new one a day later, although expensive at 500gp per witch level. I'd be reconsidering my DnD group though if my DM went out of his way to kill my familiar, especially since there's probably a group of people more threatening than a small animal.

[Cotilla]

You absolutely don't want your familiar to die. When you get a new one, it comes with only 2 spells of each level you can cast.

[The White Knight]

You absolutely don't want your familiar to die. When you get a new one, it comes with only 2 spells of each level you can cast.

Plus any that come from your Patron, as well as any added via the Human's alternate favored class option. But yeah, potentially pretty crippling.

[Otherworld Odd]

Yeah, like I said, I would be reconsidering my play group or DM if they ever killed my familiar.

[Arbane]

Plus any that come from your Patron, as well as any added via the Human's alternate favored class option. But yeah, potentially pretty crippling.

Where do you find the human ACF? (And what does it do?)


Yeah, like I said, I would be reconsidering my play group or DM if they ever killed my familiar.

Hey, all's fair in love, war, and AOE attacks.

[Otherworld Odd]

It's in the pathfinder Advanced Player's Guide, page 22. Basically it lets you add a spell to your familiar lower than the highest level you can cast and if you ever have to replace your familiar, it knows these spells.

[knight.errant]

My witch Brom won first place in the Cheese Grinder tournament at Dragoncon this year. Fought through something like 14 straight hours of non-stop combats against higher ECL opponents. They are one of the strongest classes in the game.

I'd love to hear more about these fights and what tactics you used. I've been trying to find some playtests or posts of witches in combat and it sounds like you have a firm grasp of how to best play the class.

Sorry for the thread necromancy...sort of.