Maneuvers Limits per Level

[C.Penguin]

In a campaign I joined recently, there is a player running a swordsage, and, unfortunately, our DM is one of those "OmG TomE 0f BatTl3 iz sOOO BrokEn" types, though he says nothing to my utilization of Shivering Cheese or other delightful shenanigans. Recently it came to light that our resident Swordsage has been selecting maneuvers incorrectly, taking too many high level maneuvers, and our DM has decreed that, essentially, the Swordsage may only select 2 maneuvers of each level when selecting which maneuvers to ready each day (so 2 2nd level, 2 3rd, 2 4th, etc, however he says the Swordsage gets to pick 7 maneuvers at first level, which seemed very arbitrary). The Swordsage and myself both believe that this is incorrect, and that the DM is simply hitting his character with the "nerf-stick," but neither of us have found the line that actually spells out how the maneuver level progression works

So, playground, can you explain how many maneuvers of each level a Swordsage may pick from, and can you show me where the actual rule is defined and spelled out?

Much appreciated.

[Angry Bob]

A single-classed martial adept may select maneuvers as though the maneuvers were spells and he was a wizard. Page 39 in the tome of battle has a chart that pretty much says this. when you multiclass, you add half of your non-initiator levels to your initiator levels for this purpose. How many maneuvers the swordsage actually gets is noted in the swordsage's chart. In addition, at 4th and every even level after that, they can lose a maneuver he knows and learn one he meets the prerequisites for in its place.

Hope that's clear.

As a side note, does anyone know if, you have to know the prerequisite number of maneuvers just to learn a maneuver in the first place, or do you also lose it if you later don't meet its prereqs due to swapping out?

[Greenish]

Highest level maneuvers an initiator can pick are listed on the table on page 39. The progression is essentially identical to wizard's access to spell levels.

Swordsages get 6 maneuvers known at first level, then a new maneuver known each level, picked from any level maneuvers they have access to. At level 4 and every even level after that they can swap one of their maneuvers known to any other maneuver they qualify for (doesn't have to be same school or same level).

You can change your maneuvers readied at any time by meditating for 5 minutes (or a full round with the feat), and can ready any maneuvers you know, regardless of their levels.

[Edit]:
As a side note, does anyone know if, you have to know the prerequisite number of maneuvers just to learn a maneuver in the first place, or do you also lose it if you later don't meet its prereqs due to swapping out?Prerequisites are for learning the maneuver, not for using it (I think there's a FAQ ruling to the effect somewhere), you damn swordsage…

[Angry Bob]

Do you have a link to that FAQ, in case I have to use it to back myself up someday?

Penguin: If he thinks they have too many maneuvers, see if the guy wants to play a Warblade or Crusader instead. They don't get as many maneuvers, and the Warblade's maneuvers look less magical and more like stuff any Fighter should, by fluff, be able to do. Especially important if what you say about the DM is true.

[thubby]

go find an optimized swordsage, then an optimized wizard. show them to your dm, then give him a minute to cry as he realizes how much he's flirted with utter disaster by allowing wizards while nerfing a melee class.

[C.Penguin]

So is there ever a limit on the amount of maneuvers an initiator can learn of a certain level? Like could a swordsage learn 3 5th level maneuvers by substituting one of the 6th level ones he would learn at level 11-12 for a 5th level one? Because the DM is saying an initiator can only ever learn 2 maneuvers at each level, which is, at least to my knowledge, incorrect.

[2xMachina]

Yes, you can do that. But IMO, subbing a lvl 6 with a lvl 5 is suboptimal.

RE: Qualifications, Dragon Disciple, nuff said.

[Angry Bob]

If you have the Tome of Battle available to you, look at the swordsage's class table. It tells you how many maneuvers he knows by level. Usually, this means you learn one(1) new maneuver each level. If you take the Martial Study feat, you can learn one more. Maneuvers learned with Martial Study Can't be swapped out.

In other news, the swordsage and all other martial adepts can ready whatever maneuvers they want. If they want to ready all of their high-power maneuvers at once, they're allowed to, but there are some staples you don't want to leave unreadied. Like Sudden Leap or Mind Over Body.

tl;dr: You're both wrong. A swordsage is limited to one(1) new maneuver each class level, and en extra one at 4th and each even level and beyond, which you get by switching out an old maneuver.

EDIT: I misunderstood your post. You can learn any maneuver you qualify for, but it's strongly encouraged that you pick the strongest maneuvers you qualify for, hence 2 maneuvers from each maneuver level, though in practice you'll often end up swapping out low-level maneuvers for higher-level ones.

[2xMachina]

Yes, but there is nothing stopping you from grabbing a lvl 5 maneuver (instead of a lvl 6) at lvl 11. It's suboptimal, but possible.

EDIT: Also, with 1 new maneuver per class lvl, you learn 2 maneuver of a lvl before the one you swap in with the even class lvl.

So, Swordsages actually get 3 maneuver of a lvl.

[Angry Bob]

Right, I edited my post.

What about the dragon disciple?

[2xMachina]

PrC, requiring to be non-dragon. Gives Dragon type as capstone.

If they need to continue qualifying to use the abilities....

At which point, they disqualify for the PrC and lose the benefits. And thus, requalifying, and THEN disqualifying them again. Rinse repeat.

[C.Penguin]

Okay awesome that answers my question, thanks

[Vangor]

So is there ever a limit on the amount of maneuvers an initiator can learn of a certain level? Like could a swordsage learn 3 5th level maneuvers by substituting one of the 6th level ones he would learn at level 11-12 for a 5th level one? Because the DM is saying an initiator can only ever learn 2 maneuvers at each level, which is, at least to my knowledge, incorrect.

Absolutely nothing in the rules with regards to how many maneuvers of any given level is allowed. There is absolutely no restriction on the amount of maneuvers known of a given level or of a given discipline aside from those involving initiator level and the prerequisites, both of which are clearly indicated per maneuver.

What I imagine he decided is based on the amount of maneuvers known by the Swordsage progression, beginning with 6 and ending with 25. Every level you receive an additional maneuver known, and since you gain a new level of maneuvers every other level of Swordsage, you'd have a chance to gain 2 maneuvers each level. The problem is his math is bad since you'll hit level 9 maneuvers at 17th level, gain your second at level 18, and still gain 2 maneuvers known at 19th and 20th.

More importantly, he neglects a good portion of the rules on maneuvers which is identical for Crusaders, Swordsages, and Warblades about exchanging an old maneuver for a new one every even level starting with 4th. Clearly says you can choose a maneuver of any level you want to provided you are the proper initiator level.